Submitted by factotum on Thu, 11/21/2019 - 14:21
For when one interesting things thread isn't enough.
..... are we back to that Greek cafe in Richmond full of old blokes talking nonsense? Who cares what we call ourselves it’s more interesting what others call us, isn’t that right Esmeralda?
hahaha that's the best part GS :)
One observation (and assuming unforeseen problem) I.m seeing over and over with the jobkeeper is that many people (lots of them seem to be young people and the same ones who are going to be paying for this debt for years to come) are refusing to come back to work, I know many employers who are really struggling to get the staff to return to service industry jobs as people are either getting more than normal on the jobkeeper (and jobseeker ?) or are just happy to live on $750per week and not have to work. Again backpacker labour are the only people who are holding the line ( I guess they still need to earn$ -until they get it also) while Aussie millennials are happy to cruise at home (or fill up the lineups) rather than work even now in many cases they can (or should).
Lots of talk on the news about whats going to happen in september when it due to end and how it should be extended but really is this going to be in the best interest of the economy in reality?
I live in a tourist town so maybe different elsewhere but wife was in the city 2 weeks ago and said lots of shops still shut up there as having staffing issues also.
That’s gotta be rough MH207. Sounds like the employer gets stiffed if they need to then get someone in to actually do the work? Doesn’t JobKeeper need to be applied for by the employer? Is there a mechanism to end it if the employee won’t return to work once the business reopens?
Welcome back. Your early writing and articles were one of the reasons I became a regular reader of swellnet. (And the outsider too, thanks FR). Then became a subscriber.
I’ll be honest though, I felt that you gave as good as you got on the forums. You’re better than that. I’m not sure exactly what happened, but it wasn’t pretty. I’m glad you’re back. I hope things stay civil, from all the regulars, and we can all enjoy our exchanges of opinions.
I'm going to call bullshit on this concept that employers can't find staff.
Job ads have plummeted as fast as the unemployment numbers have risen. There's no shortage of people looking for work. There is a shortage of jobs available across virtually all industries.
"angry online, smiley in the brine"
VL, I don’t think that was what MH was saying.
He was saying that staff aren’t returning to work, even though the conditions have changed. Or maybe I can’t read.
Why would I make that up Vic? happening all over the place here in WA (as virus is well under control unlike where you are I guess), our town is summer holiday busy, accom is full, cleaners cant get staff back, restaurants are full, cant get staff back, cellar doors are busy sama sama, believe it or not (surf has been busy as fuck too but thankfully the north west has recently opened up too so a little bit of a pressure relief from that).
I employ one guy full time and another (long term dole rider who I use when I,m busy and he aint coming back any time soon, doesnt even call me anymore , getting double the normal amount with the seeker , got a new shooter and an 0z every week why would he? Never had it so good).
Re JobKeeper it’s my understanding if an employee is receiving it then has work/job to return to they are then obliged to return, it’s not a choice. As for those on Jobseeker, like MH suggested, there will always be those willing to rort it for all it’s worth.
etarip. Mike was using local examples. I was describing the national scene. Sure, some crew may be bludging but that's always been the case. Australia isn't even close to full employment. In other words for every job ad, there's many times the number of people looking for work.
Scomo and the LNP mob like to portray the unemployed as bludgers. It means people don't focus on the fact the economy is in the shit and the government is incapable of improving employment opportunities. And to make matters worse, gutting education and vocation training is in the LNP DNA, making things even more difficult for the unemployed. But hey, if we all point the finger and yell "bludger" we don't discuss how badly unemployed people are treated, and how few opportunities they have.
VL, Your response seemed to be aimed at MH’s post. I don’t think he was trying to extrapolate that to the national level.
I get it. My missus was laid off from her PT job with a local not-for-profit working in the community aid sector that relied on government grants to pay staff wages, as public and corporate donations go straight to the community.. No JobKeeper entitlement. She’s applying for everything she can. Not a lot out there. We’re lucky. I’m in a stable, secure job and earn enough to look after us. She’s still volunteering for the same NFP as there’s still plenty of needy people out there. There’s plenty of crew out there that aren’t so lucky.
(There’s also more people in the water than I’ve ever seen in winter... but whatever. Not calling them bludgers. Call them all sorts of other shit when I see 8 heads on the beach scoping the peak I’m enjoying with 2-3 other people)
I reckon we are on the same page there etarip. People who surf in big groups should have their job-keeper revoked and then executed.
Jeez, I was wondering where those two Swellnetonians had got to lately...
“The dog leg. That dog had four legs. One you found in my trunk. The other three went out with the information you're thinking about right now. Two people you don't want coming around here if anything bad happens to me.”
Morrison has no data to support his claims, just anecdotes. Of course there are hundreds of thousands of anecdotes about those totally unable to find work....but they're no use to him. The dole bludger myth is an ancient lie the coalition drag out whenever unemployment rises. The New Daily explains why some workers will not take extra shifts.https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/work/2020/06/30/jobseeker-morrison-mi...
I was on the dole for years in the 90s as were lots of my friends.
You people are being super naive if you think you can double the dole (or close, plus perks like rent assistance, health care card discounts etc)
And then for people to actually want to do low paid low skilled jobs.
Why on earth would you bother working full time doing shit that sucks, when you can be on the dole and get almost as much money, not to mention if you do a little part time work it affects your dole very little, and if you do a bit of cash work even better.
There is always lots of low skill low paid jobs out there, but yeah the competition is for the decent paid jobs, two different things.
Yeah sure not everyone on the dole is a dole bludger etc but the way you guys paint it, is also not true and naive.
And yeah you can say increase the min wage (already one of the highest in the world), so these jobs are not as low paid, but all that happens is the prices of business increases to cover increased wages and they become less competitive and more jobs go offshore etc or employers expect more of employees (cut staff, decreasing number of jobs), it's basically just chasing your tail.
It's such a fine balancing act, of keeping the dole at a level that is good enough to survive but not too high that people don't want to do low skilled jobs. (same deal with min wage)
It does seem the normal dole amount is too low now compared to cost of living, but in the 90s it was fine, it should just be pegged to something like cost of living and increase each year (i thought it was, there always was small increases) i guess now there is other factors like more expenses mobil phones & internet etc
Anyway way more complex than you people make out, so many factors.
Not overly concerned by the rorters but my observations are at the other end of the demographics: not the young crew, but the middle-aged folk pulling tax-minimisation swifties (income-splitting etc) and because of that doing quite well, thank you very much, out of JobKeeper.
Lotta people around here doing it, their wives getting JobKeeper even though they doesn't actually work, and many of them are shameless in admitting it, which means there are many more who won't openly divulge it. Seems like a commonplace move.
Be good to see things like this clamped down on before the LNP trot out the usual dole-bludger line.
The ATO hired ~600 more people at the beginning of Covid to process Keeper and Seeker and people rorting it should be worried about the back end work of those extra employees. My gut feel is there'll be lots of people (and their spouses) paying back taxes for years to come.
you'd have to think there would be a reckoning at some point.
....only for those rorting the welfare payments, never for the middle class parasites that Morrison represents. They have more lurks than they know what to do with.
That's a pretty big brush you're tarring a certain demographic with blowfly!!!
It is rare that I would bother to recommend a surf video but I would highly recommend you check out 'Surf sessions vol 1' by willem powerfish on you tube,
The hate is strong in that one .
Funny old world some people live in whereby a double income couple who works diligently their entire lives and raised their kids to do the same are now venomously described as parasites. The very people who built and sustain this society and pay for the welfare net are hated for receiving a modicum of the graft they’ve paid to the system, whilst backpackers on holiday should be entitled to free money courtesy of the earnings generated by the same despised middle class “ parasites”.
Very , very strange.
I’m sure there’s plenty of data behind this hatred of an entire productive and caring subset of our community though . Surely it’s not just toxic opinion ?
I agree Gary.
Maybe some of them actually worked hard, made some smart choices, up-skilled, counted their pennies and so forth. All within the constraints of the law.
I hear what you're saying BF, but sometimes you make it out to be almost criminal to aspire to a certain standard of living.
I can be light hearted and say it was the reference to Morrison representing me that caused the offence but not really.
I prefer to use the loaded language of former treasurer Joe Hockey - lifters and leaners.
But first Info-dreaming discussed the dole rate earlier. To correct the record the dole last rose above the CPI rate in 1994 ie 26 years ago and probably around the time our Info was on it.
Now how’s this for a leaners which goes to Blowfly’s comment above ....
I heard 1st hand how a boomer couple worth many millions, but hidden in a family trust and in superannuation are building a house atm costing them close to 2 million while being paid a part aged pension. All legal of course.
GuySmiley could you explain the relevance of that situation to Blowfly's comment above???
Guy....where did these people get their money to have so much of it ?
Here’s something.....what happens when the businesses employing all these chuffed WFH personnel realise that they can just as easily employ someone who works from their home in India and for a fraction of the cost ?
I’ve met various crew who have relocated to regional areas now they can work remotely. None had considered that their work can also be relocated .
Blowin I think it's only certain business models that have relocated overseas. Those that don't give a fuck about customer service. Most companies that depend on quality customer service and customer interaction wouldn't last six months if they took up the sub-continent or south east asian options.
Agree, the WFH thing has only been made possible by tech advances such as Zoom. A great many jobs still require verbal and face-to-face communication, and sometimes by multiple parties at once - you know, meetings - but Zoom et al has made that possible.
Chuck in language barriers and the whole thing would go to shit.
Blowin, by working exceptionally hard (self employed) and getting lucky which is all to be commended. The “but” is from the start the business(es) were all structured inside family trusts thereby minimising tax while maximising opportunities to collect government concessions and welfare. I did lots of forensic work on these types of arrangements in a former life, it’s staggering what you can get away with given access to the right legal and accounting advice. it’s all legal but is it ethical or even moral? So while this goes on unabated the focus is on dole bludgers.
OK...let’s all agree that they all suck : The piss taking hard workers skimming more than they should off their tax payments, the piss taking dole bludgers languishing around while their potential employment is given to temporary migrants and the big businesses who employ tens of thousands of Australians but pay virtually zero tax on their Aussie profits .
"History never repeats
I tell myself before I go to sleep..."
Focus isn't on dole bulges.
Focus is on the issue of current benefit arrangements during Covid-19 becoming a disincentive for people to go back to low paid employment, plus BB long post was about raising benefits and minimum wage.
The topic of tax avoidance is a totally different topic that gets lot of attention by the media and also been talked about here many times.
I dont bother going to too much effort to reduce my tax as i just earn what i need and aren't out to try to be super rich, but i dont blame those paying lots of tax doing everything legally possible to reduce it, especially when you see it getting wasted..
Personally i never whinged about the dole when i was on it, because i was getting free money for nothing, drives me crazy when people whinge about not getting this or that from the government.
I know it's a cliche but its so true that there is such a sense of entitlement these days, everyone wants something for nothing and thinks they deserve more free money.
Indo: the government portraying people on welfare as bludgers, is just buttering up the public to start cutting back jobkeeper and jobseeker.
The reality is, the vast majority of people on benefits genuinely want a job. There's something like 1.6 million people on these payments and only 88,000 odd jobs on seek. Do the maths mate.
Yes job keeper and job seeker are going to get wound back, but that means genuine pain for good people. Portraying them as bludgers so that the payments can be wound back hard and fast, is a fucking insult, especially when the government announces $270 billion on military expenses.
Do you ever wonder why conservatives so often go for anecdotal evidence, rather than reliable facts and figures, to justify their economic policies?
GuySmiley your comments seem to be a bit off topic. I questioned Blowfly's reference to labelling middle class Australians parasites (okay maybe he didn't mean all of them). You referenced a "boomer couple worth many millions" in relation to Blowfly's comment. Now you're countering Blowin with self employed family trusted tax minismisers. What has any of that got to do with the majority of middle class Australians who I assume work for a salary, probably have a double income and get to claim a couple of hundred bucks for laundry at tax time. Like I said tar, brush, bullshit.
My comment was aimed at the parasites and was not intended to include the entire middle class. A list of those it was aimed at might start with those who avoid their responsibilities to their employees and include those who have multiple investment properties and tax avoiders of all varieties. You can contend that the legal rorts do not comprise parasitism. I would disagree.
Thanks for clearing that up Blowfly. I feel much better now as a butterfly instead of a bush tick !!!
Hoochie Mama Mia
GaryG, how many examples would you like me to give you of middle class families gaming the system with family trusts?
Let's see. There was the tradie running his business under a company and trust structure. Because of a former career he was in receipt of a substantial income tested disability pension except he hid his income in a discretionary family trust. Income was split between him, his wife, parents in law and 5 kids. He and his wife were co-directors of the company and trust. After our forensic examination of his business affairs a trip to his accountant and lawyer saw him devolving control of the company and trust to his wife and mother-in-law. He also reduced his "wage" from his business to one dollar below the disability income test threshold so he could continue to be paid the full pension. Job done no interruption to the gravy train of government disability pension and welfare ... paying the kids was a nice little trick in the latter years of high school because it made them eligible for a nice level of Government study allowance with the family income quarantined from the calculations.
Then there was the motel operator, the accountant, the operator of an art gallery etc etc ... all middle class all gaming the system.
Here’s the thing though , Guy ......is the tradie who is lessening his tax contribution , despite obviously being extremely productive, considered a worse member of society than the person who sits on their arse and never tries to contribute and never paying hardly any tax and then going on the same pension ?
I’ve got no real answer myself, I think it’s just the way of people. I don’t blame either of them for their approach. I’d definitely be keen to see the removal of the systems which allows family trusts .
Certainly been my experience working for a number of small businesses over the years. Always paid from trusts, owners making 5x what any of the employees were, then drunkenly bragging 'I probably pay less tax than you guys!'...
Discretionary family trusts are one of the primary ways wealthy people keep and grow their wealth. The rules were tightened sometime ago but they do two things minimise tax and by minimising taxable income they also allow recipients to claim all sorts of "means tested" government welfare payments. Child care subsidies, Centrelink payments, tax concessions. They also allow government ministers to get in front of the media with a straight face and say people with negatively geared properties have an average taxable income of 3 dig biscuits and a peanut.
They are a total rort.
In addition, for most of these businesses I have worked for, they consist of several entities - I don't properly understand why, but you don't add complexity like that for fun.
Buildings owned by one entity, vehicles and plant by another, employees employed and paid by yet another etc etc.
Being a tradie who does a lot of work in the Sorrento and Portsea (aka fuckin rich) areas I’m always getting paid from a trust account.
The amount of money these pricks have is ludicrous. A lot of them born into it.
The self made ones impress me though and I like hearing about how they built a business up from scratch to where it is today
Cost shifting JQ. Multinationals do the same thing to avoid billions in tax.
An Aussie woman making waves.
No one gave a rat’s arse about your ludicrous “psyops geurrilla “ dribble before so you reposted it.
What are you doing , fuckwit ? Walking around Busselton with a BLM placard and a scarf tied where a jaw line should be ?
You’re still punk....lol.
What skills do you have for after the “ revolution “ comes , comrade ? You think there’ll be big demand for your xerox copying , cube monkey abilities ?
Now slowly breathe in slowly breathe out .... now relax deeply into Shavasana
Blowin, It's pretty hard to know who you are abusing. For the sake of other readers, can you start you abusive posts with the name of the person you are targeting.
Facto’s infantile subversion dreams.
I can easily imagine him running into the pack of pretend revolutionaries and laying the boot into some poor innocent punter who the mob has overpowered twenty to one. All in the name of revolution !
And then going home to sleep safely in his bedroom knowing that society will protect him from the real bad peoples of the world.