Submitted by Blowin on Fri, 06/21/2019 - 08:01
Talking points worthy of further discussion without devolving into insult.
Poor old Bill, maybe his moobs were throwing him off balance.
who’s to say what people voted for or against? easy to throw around generalisations about 17,000,000 voters and what s going on in their individual heads. what we do know is how they voted, not why. and we know it’s about a 50/50 split 2-party preferred. hopefully next time around we can get rid of these bastards. that’s what i want, but not necessarily what i expect
Couldn’t let this go past, it’s ABC comedy at its finest - could pass for a Betoota Advocate story.
“Coronavirus evacuees battle cockroaches, bad internet on first night on Christmas Island”
"I understood that there would be very limited facilities here, but the actual condition is no facilities at all. It's thousands of times worse than I imagined."
"The courtyard is big for the kids to run around but there is no sunscreen."
"It feels like we are a group of animals - It's even more dangerous than staying in Wuhan, it is life-threatening conditions here, it is worse than self-isolation in Wuhan."
Bless you Aunty for providing such cheer and for continuing to play a part in the outrage industry.
....well you are right ojacko, one can only guess...
but if you are going to analyse elections - as people do - assumptions are all we have. this applies if you're the man in the street, or a top end jounalist. are you proposing we stop all analysis of elections?
i think it's pretty fair to say, after decades of neglect from the labor party, many working class people said a big big 'fuck you' to labor in this election ...finally! ...some would say...
dunno about your 50/50 thing, but I do know labor's primary vote was well down, well well down
I also know that in the shithole working class suburb I grew up in, where pretty much all my friends were labor supporters, people are moving away from labor in droves, and it's only the die hards that now openly support them. just as it's only die hard liberals that now support liberals
liberals offered no policies at all for this election, so one can assume not many swingers were inspired to vote for them
and labor offered a plethora of policies, and it appears no one was inspired to vote for them either
I think it's pretty safe to say, more people voted against franking credits policy than those who voted for the policy. probably the same for negative gearing, though I'd say by a smaller margin
I'd happily bet $10 000 that more people voted against bill shorten, than those that voted for him, and I'm not even a betting man
I'd also say way more people voted against importing chinese grandmothers, than those that voted for it, evidenced by the chinese voters, who still didn't even vote labor...
I reckon a hell of a lot of voters voted against labor's last minute gender centre vote grab too
I'd go as far to say more voters voted against labor's wider 'diversity' agenda in general, than those that voted for it, evidenced by western suburbs migrant communities voting liberal. which just shows the abject failure of the identity politics thinking in general in the modern context. that shit is now just plain toxic - and not just for honkeys...
I'd like to get rid of the bastards too, but I can't see it happening, unless labor fundamentally changes what they are doing
from what we've seen post election, that ain't happening anytime soon...
Fucken gold andym
abc has officially lost the plot
and I love my abc ...well did...
still do parts of it, but it is seriously broken
just outright fucken pathetic actually
Whoa, easy with the “honkey” talk Syppo.
I prefer the term cracker myself.
Yeah the “outrage at every corner” schtick is just embarrassing.
Here’s The Guardian’s latest effort.
“A Gold Coast surgeon, Dr Rhea Liang, also posted on social media about an a [sic] patient of hers having joked about not shaking her hand due to the coronavirus.
“I have not left Australia,” she wrote. “This is not sensible public health precautions. This is racism.”
Maybe I shouldn’t read too much into these cheap bits of garbage peddled by the ABC and the Guardian but I wonder where it’s all heading.
Maybe we’re being trolled, I mean, look at the doctor’s name - Rhea Liang = Reel Ing ;)
this shit really is too ridiculous to be real
the left (liberal/neo liberal variety) really has turned into a parody of itself
having just spent some time in major airports and tourist haunts loaded with chinese folk, I'd love to see the authors of this ridiculousness do the same with a heart rate monitor attached, then we'll see who's racist...
it's bloody terrifying
when the guardian is suggesting the democrat party is officially cooked...
well, ...safe to say, ...the democrat party is officially cooked...
once again, a parody of itself
good ol' facto loved to bag me about my obsession with american politics, well I gotta say, it's amazed me for a long time how oz politics just seems to follow, and/or fall in line with, us politics just with a short time delay
the democrats have a hugely ironic massive identity crisis going on, where it seems they just don't know where to turn. with fuck up after fuck up unfolding around them, to the point where it's just flat out embarrassing. they just cannot get a single thing right
and sure enough, oz labor just seem to be following suit...
and to a certain extent the uk
the parallels and coincidences are just amazing to say the least
I honestly thought trump and brexit were just protest votes. angry people saying enough is enough, and the leaders of the left would learn some hard lessons and get their shit together
now I'm thinking something much bigger is going on
they just seem totally out of control, incapable of learning, adapting, and ironically again, progressing, in any shape or form. they are in total disarray and just getting worse, caught up in a self inflicted death spiral it would seem
I now think we are in for a significant run of right wing politics across the western world, unfortunatly.
the left have just made themselves totally irrelevant and totally incapable of dealing with contemporary issues
while I may seem to enjoy and support all of this, I really don't. I actually think the world needs left influences more than ever, as inequality grows exponentially, and enviromental problems just get bigger and bigger to the point of being huge
blade runner style future and self destruction here we come...
... I am enjoying watching a certain self righteous, long time belittling, long time denial living, cohort of the left totally lose their shit though...
it's schadenfreude on steroids
...speaking of parody...
funny photo time, tools in t shirts with hilariois lines on them
oz labor, please please get your shit together, soon, or this is you.
The thing is, as much as the Victimhood Olympics shits me to tears, I get no real shadenfreude from it because I see it as being so distracting and divisive.
The well-meaning social progressives continue to tie themselves in knots instead of looking at the realities.
As you’ve said Syppo, Labor needs to pull its head out of its arse and move into the 21st century and acknowledge that unfortunately, these days we’re not looking at solidarity forever but division eternal.
I’ll never vote Labor but quite obviously, without a functioning opposition we’re pretty rooted.
Sorry to break into this great analysis, and it may be a distraction, but talking about realities, the reality is Australia likes voting in Liberal slash National Party governments federally. They've been in more than they've been out.
The two longest serving PMs are Liberals.
Labor and any of their ideas and personalities don't seem to appeal to the Australian voting public nationally. Apart from the Hawke and Keating team, And what was their economic agenda again? Maybe some of you are too young to really remember.
Anyway, what's the problem? Is there a problem?
Where have you been, young Pup?
“We’ve already got an entrenched working poor ... selling the country to the highest bidder hasn’t caused much of s stir, blatant corruption, massive fires and the political indifference to them...”
And yet Australians keep voting them in. More often than not.
Is there some really, really radical difference this time then you think?
A bit of buyer's regret because of the recent fires?
That was yesterday. Today it's the Chinese virus for the government. Right up our PMs alley. A bit more positive. Gutters and strikes in American lingo.
Business as usual, I reckon. The job of governing Australia the way Australians voted for.
This is some serious shit. Things are going to get nuts.
I'm only enjoying the shadenfreude on those that have put all the eggs in one basket (the eggs! - not theirs!), and now their world is 'shattered' ...haha...
extreme shadenfreude, one, because they've been so righteous, and high and mighty, for far too long. secondly, because it's allowed the right to run away with all the cash - cash from the selling of public assets - our assets! (neoliberalism), and thirdly, because the theory just doesn't work, as evidenced by oz new migrants voting liberal, and hispanics and black people voting trump. the theory is just flat out flawed - it's fucked up badly broken actually - and has been for quite some time...
plus, the glaring irony of people uniting for a common good being so god damn divisive, ...yet people vehemently grasp to this dogmatic bullshit theory with such angry righteous gusto - it's a bloody cult...
where have you been indeed pup? read some of andym's posts again
but you are right in a way, the academic literature states that australians are somewhat inherently conservative by nature. but they do like 'a fair go'. which is what hawke and keating offered, despite sowing the seeds of neoliberalism.
"Is there some really, really radical difference this time then you think?"
I do, people have had enough.
enough of the bullshit, enough of the lies and manipulations. enough of the hypocrisy and dogma.
plus globalisation is totally on the nose. totally utterly on the nose. it fucken reeks of shit and spew
people struggle to define; deny; and vehemantly dismiss 'neoliberalism', but to me, it is obvious what it is, and what it does. neoliberalism is globalisation version 2.0, a selling off of public assets to global highest bidders to prop up the thoroughly worn out ideology of liberalism
we need new ideas
liberalism worked for a time in a post ww2 booming world economy. then when it ran out of legs around the 70s, they progressively loosened the regulations, bit by bit, on just about everthing, trying to squeeze more out of a lemon. the left rolled over with their 'third way' bullshit, and allowed the wealthy and connected to enrich themselves, while your average joe got to suck lemons
average joe sucked it up for decades until they'd had enough, as family, life, and property slowly became just too expensive for most people. hence, trump, brexit, yellow vests, smoko, and the general unrest and discontent across the globe
this is the 'radical difference' we are seeing this time. there's no wishing this away. and there's no more false platitudes that will placate the plebs. it's revolution time, in one form or another...
the internet has pulled back the curtain on the wizard, and the people really don't like what they see
this article, pre trump, tells it how it is, four fucking years ago! yet the left haven't adjusted to the new reality. instead they have pig headedly doubled down, time and time again, on a clearly broken model
"...This is American politics at peak neoliberalism, where a distorted version of identity politics is used to defend an oligarchy and a national security state, celebrating diversity in the management of exploitation and warfare.
“I think it’s very cynical,” says Rutgers historian Donna Murch, the author of a recent New Republic article titled “The Clintons’ War on Drugs: When Black Lives Didn’t Matter.” “Saying that political economy doesn’t matter to black people, I think that that is terrible. Especially when you look at the impact of what happened with the subprime crisis.”"
"...Clinton, who not so long ago bragged that Obama had failed to attract the support of "hardworking Americans, white Americans,” is now tweeting through the lens of intersectionality and entreating white voters on the campaign trail to “recognize our privilege and practice humility.” Clinton, however, is using racial justice against class-based grievances as a tool to attack Sanders from the right. Her campaign has gone so far as to suggest that Sanders’ pledge to make public universities tuition-free is racist because it would exclude private historically black colleges and universities. Only this campaign, this year, could cause a Democrat to suggest that free public education is racist."
stop screaming at the sky and adljust!!!! ...ffs!
god damn progress you fucking fools, or you are doomed...
we are doomed!
...while the right (and faux lefty millionaires) continue to rape, pillage and plunder the planet running off to panama with all the cash...
the death of liberalism...
"it's revolution time, in one form or another..."
Not while house prices stay high and the Ponzi scheme keeps rolling on.
"while house prices stay high..."
On that note, anyone wanna sell me a house in avalon dirt cheap? Getting sick of not being able to afford to buy into the area I grew up.
(edit, saying this very much tongue-in-cheek. But there's some truth there for younger crew like myself)
He who hesitates is lost
Quite a read there, Sypkhan. Idiosyncratic and entertaining opinions to say the least.
The fact though remains:
Australia votes Liberal slash National governments in, federally especially, more times than not.
I think Hawke and Keating got a 'fair go' in your piece (hard to tell), but the fact remains that after them, John Howard was the second longest serving PM in Australia's history.
These people you speak for, are they the majority? The majority who vote overwhelmingly for the Liberal and National Parties in federal elections?
They're winning, always have, and always will. And why not? Isn't this a democracy?
Bit reductionist there, Pupkin. Sure, Libs/nats have governed more often than they haven't; but that doesn't necesarrily equate to majority support (majority of the electorates, yes, but that's not necessarily a popular majority, electorates not being equal in size. And the picture gets more murky when preferences are taken into account). I suspect you know that. "Overwhelmingly" isn't really the right term either - how many minority governments have we had in the past decade? And just because past people voted lib/nat in their time/context doesn't necessarily mean that they'd vote the same way in our context. Decent chance many would, but its really hard to generalise like you seem to be doing.
Again, the objective fact is, post World War II, the Liberals are what Christopher Pyne rightly described them as: an election winning machine.
If this is so apparently on the nose, and apparently against what people think is good for them and the country, according to some, why do Australians keep voting them in?
Hey Pops you could look at Avalon in Mandurah, it might have pulled back :)
Probably still quite expensive...
& wasn't it the One Nation and Katter votes that got Libs over the line in QLD and almost rolled Fitzgibbon in the Hunter? Didn't Lib core vote decline a little (ALP a bit more)
Isn’t this a democracy?
Well that’s the big question.
It’s certainly not a very healthy one.
Pupkin I’d ask you to look up the terms kleptocracy and corporatocracy and think about how they relate to the Australian political system.
Not while house prices stay high and the Ponzi scheme keeps rolling on."
Not to mention we are still in the longest period of growth any developed country has had in history.
One day we will all look back on the last 28 years (hopefully longer) as a golden era, nothing last forever.
Looks like a nice enough area VJ... how're the waves?
VJ, One Nation is a party fronted by an ex-Liberal, as Bob Katter is an ex-National. Both disgruntled former party members (for personal reasons).
And don't forget Clive Palmer too. He's been both!
And I think Lambie has been pretty much everywhere looking for an 'in'.
Kleptocracy and corporatocracy, Andy? Is this why normal Australian Joe and Joanne Citizen voters go for the Liberal and National parties?
Yep it was my understanding that the overall tallies of the two majors declined.
People are looking for alternatives.
Something to consider -
“By Gösta Lyngå
Between 1988 to 1991, I was a member of the Swedish parliament.
Later on, I moved to settle in Canberra and I became engaged in Australian politics.
As a result, I have a clear insight into both the Australian political system and the Swedish system. It is clear that the Australian application of democracy is different from that of most European countries – and whether that is an advantage or not may be up for discussion.
Here are the key differences I have observed:
1. Single member electorates. A British tradition that was imported to Australia, single member electorates means that one person represents an electorate. This presumes that the person listens to the citizens and takes their issue to the parliament.
In practice, an elected member belongs to the one party with most votes and it is against the practice that the member listens to the views of other voters.
In democratic countries the tradition of multi-member electorates allows different views to play a role. My experience from the Swedish Parliament was that successful agreements between members from different parties led to sensible solutions.
Most democratic countries have several parties, some have minority governments and others have coalitions. Decisions are often made after negotiations between members of different parties. In Australia this is called a “hung” parliament. Such an awful misrepresentation!”
So as I’ve said before, Australia’s voting system is a poor representation of democracy and we should do everything we can to bring more minors into positions of power so as to encourage negotiations, compromise and consensus.
Pup I’d say they don’t know what they are standing in.
Both the blue and red corners are poo-brown these days
The last minority government we had was a shambles, Andy.
Or so we were told.
And if the blue corner is so shit (I assume that's the Liberals), why do we vote them in most of the time? They can't be all that bad, unless the red corner (Labor?) is worse. Which most Australian voters must believe, if history is any guide.
We like conservative governments. We like this one. They won.
We do like conservative governments, it’s been shown we’re quite a conservative nation. At the same time it’s clear that both majors and without doubt the LNP right now are doing some atrocious things, and if other countries are anything to go by, we need to have a good hard look at our political system.
If I remember correctly, the last minority government was extremely successful in negotiating and passing legislation.
Hey Pops, I like the waves there, it was part of my grommethood. You still get a bit of the outer reefs blocking the Down South size swell, but it's generally better setups & waves than the Metro area. If you are into fishing or crabbing, too :)
Pupkin, not disputing that, note also that Nigel Farage was a former conservative party member. I do note the voices of conscience against globalism are coming from the billionaires (Trump, Perot) and high-finance commodities traders like Farrage. Maybe Odey, maybe you could include Bass as well. It's as if they see all the money, but then reflect "Hey, I'd still like to have my country to live in".
BTW did this thread cover Brexit? It's happened - a great big crack in the wall of neoliberalism/conglomeration of government. Huzzah! If you look back, so much of the history of the the UK has been about preserving their independence from Europe. It's been stunning given all that was fought for in the last 1000 years, that in the last 50 years, they allowed (via a creeping process) their system of government to be made subservient to the continent. They got ripped, and the Saxon woke up when he realised he was subject to laws he did not vote for, a big no-no... Now to remove the EU court that hangs over 1000+ years of legal tradition... Nobody riots like the French; the Brits do it by ballot box.
the revolution I talk of is global not local
...aussies still have it too good. and they're too hocked to the eyeballs to take chances (hence smoko). and the house prices are still way too high -giving a false sense of wealth (even though the banks own most of it). and indo's right, this is a 'golden age' of sorts, ...until it isn't...
this house of cards ponzi scheme can only last so long. and then....
and, it's more a revolution of what the public will accept, narratively, economically, culturally, ...politically. rather than a guns blazing revolution
I would argue the libs have won through that period you speak of pup because labor has had shit unappealling leaders. and shit ideas....
crean, beazely, gillard, shorten, and now albo. the public liked rudd, but the party didn't. not learning to work with rudd is the biggest mistake the labor party have made of late, and it's going to haunt them for years to come. especially considering how they ousted him and replaced him with gillard. for some reason this has been much more unforgiveable than the libs replacing thier leaders
plus, I think the public just has no confidence whatsoever in contemporay labor. it seems everything they have introduced since the hawke/keating years has been a fuck up, in one way or another. not to mention much of it pretty unpopular and uninspiring. nothing visionary, nothing encouraging, nothing inclusive (ironically again), nothing to appeal to their traditional base, and nothing remotely resembling an economic plan.
just spend spend spend
with no convincing argument of how they will fund it. just boring old health and education (as they alway do) and they haven't even done that well. whilst charging more and more for services that were once free.
while filling up the country with more and more heads, as waiting lists and costs just get longer and higher. if I was an alt. right conspiracy nutter I'd argue their main priority is agenda 21, and not looking after the people who actually once voted for them
mandurah: nice, but brown, dry, sandy, boring, bogan, and a quarter of a degree magnitude better than perth for surf. I'll take avalon any day ...if I could afford it...
I do like it though
...but I'm a bit brown boring and bogan too...
east coast crew don't adjust well to the brown lands, you've just gotta look how quickly they all bailed once the mining opportunities started drying up
oz's east coast is heaven on earth, from a wholistic viewpoint
The LNP are better at politicking. They might not tell the truth, but they know what to say to get the votes off a traditionally easygoing ( nee complacent ) population.
We will stop the boats !
Interest rates will always be lower under a coalition government !
Australia cant be doing too bad Andy.
Look at USA i mean I've come to be a fan of Trump in a weird kind of way, but last election was between him basically a rich business man celebrity that is quite loose and another Clinton from a dynasty, imagine how much it would suck if we had dynasty's in Australia..
Then look at UK and Brexit.....vote on something and years latter its still not sorted out, at times even talk of a re-vote..like seriously why even have a vote if you cant make it happen.
Then you look at countries like Indonesia or Philippines and the shit that happens in their elections...
Like it or not Australia is among the best democratic countries in the world and our system among the best
"and we should do everything we can to bring more minors into positions of power so as to encourage negotiations, compromise and consensus."
Fuck that, id be shit scared if the Greens had more power and as much as i like the spirit of Pauline, i wouldn't want to see her have more power, give them more power and it just makes anything harder to get done.
...was indo, ...was...
it's falling apart at the seams
Picture this ....You own a nice house and you had a good job but it ended. You knew it was going to finish for years before it actually did , but rather than invest or save your money you just spent it on indulgences. And instead of retraining into a new career before your job finished you just went surfing everyday.
So your answer ? Sell a room in your house !
So someone moves in . But it turns out that’s still not enough so you sell another room . Hey ...you’re in the money ! But now your electricity bills are through the roof and so is your water bill.
So you sell your lounge room to a family . Bills taken care of ! But now you need a bigger kitchen and another bathroom. The only alternative is to sell your own bedroom for cash and then rent it back .
And that’s the new Australian economy and our view of sovereignty in a nutshell.
Not that great or smart if you ask me.
Again, some interesting and idiosyncratic opinions from all, but I'm not really following some of this.
I'm certainly no expert on personality and what does and doesn't appeal to the average Australian of either sex, but I wouldn't have thought John Gorton or William McMahon or John Howard or Tony Abbott could be described as 'personality dynamos' in any way, shape or form.
Doesn't seem to matter for the Liberal and National parties, does it?
As for Liberals being better at politicking, if that means getting a really simple message or just a slogan amplified out there everywhere without much real professional scrutiny, then I reckon they're onto a winner. They must be. They've been winning since their inception.
By what I read here, I think maybe you guys are a bit out of step with the normal Australian voter. Give it a few months, even a few weeks, service will resume as normal.
You’re being very well behaved , Facto.
"I'm certainly no expert on personality and what does and doesn't appeal to the average Australian of either sex, but I wouldn't have thought John Gorton or William McMahon or John Howard or Tony Abbott could be described as 'personality dynamos' in any way, shape or form.
Doesn't seem to matter for the Liberal and National parties, does it?"
dunno if you've noticed pup-man, but those personalities appeal to conservatives, ....or, those personalities are conservatives...
Michalea cash anyone?
it's rather ironic that one of the most respected and liked conservatives across the spectrum in oz politics was a self diagnosed autistic ....
...tim ficsher, funny that...
and one of the most hated conservatives (among conservatives) was the likeable (but seemingly useless, ...or hamstrung?) malcolm turnball
it's obviously a combination of personality, policy, and ideology that is required
labor hasn't had that for a long long time
“(but seemingly useless, ...or hamstrung?) malcolm turnball “
I reckon hamstrung, trying to placate the nutters for the sake of unity, for what that was worth
How good was Jim Molans performance on QandA!
"I'm certainly no expert on personality and what does and doesn't appeal to the average Australian "
self interest tinged with fear as far as I can see
“Like it or not Australia is among the best democratic countries in the world and our system among the best”
Yes and no Indo, we’re in the top ten but New Zealand and the Scandis put us to shame.
Also, an annual report on the civil rights of countries worldwide has downgraded Australia’s democracy from “open” to “narrowed”.
That puts us on par with Ghana and Botswana in terms of civil freedoms.
Our system is too easily co-opted and manipulated.
Appealing to self interest tinged with fear, Synchrodogcal?
Yes, the Liberal Party has been very successful since 1949. So if that's the case, it's a winning formula. No personality, policy and ideology needed or required, it seems?