Interesting stuff
Firstly, Scott Morrison’s background is in marketing and it seems he approaches most policy issues as marketing issues. Secondly, Morrison has appointed himself as a marketing champion for the coal industry.
I reckon he has previously approached climate action and cataclysmic fire risk as marketing challenges for the coal industry and, as a coal marketing man, he has tried to minimise the importance of both. He is learning fast that his priorities had better change. I don’t think his personal views on anthropomorphic climate change really came into it.
Just saw this on social media, probably one of the better well balanced post I've seen going around.(although obviously i don't agree fully with every little bit)
"Alright. A lot of people have asked. I'm a Firefighter in Australia. Let's talk about the fires.
First of all does being a firery give me all the insight to this complex issue? Not even close and I need to make that clear. However I've had to say something here because I just can't stomach some of the false science and outright lies being peddled on social media.
Hazard reduction burns - No, the Greenies haven't been stopping hazard reduction burns from taking place. We still do them and yes we could absolutely do more of them.
Yes, the weather extremes and droughts have significantly reduced the window in which it is safe to perform these burns.
Yes, the state governments need to invest more money in HRB's. NSW for example, as an estimate would need to increase their budget from $100million to a half billion, a five fold increase and that money needs to come from somewhere.
Yes, national parks and wildlife and nature reserves are hard to burn. They are the sanctuary's for Australian fauna who can no longer survive in the farmlands and housing estates we've constructed. Indiscriminate burning of national parks will literally wipe species off the face of the earth as they often have nowhere else to go.
Yes, indigenous people used to manage the land through burning and have a contribution here. However, Australia is a different landscape now, home to 24 million people and so HRB's needs to be managed differently.
Yes, conditions have been so bad this season that fires have still burnt through areas where hazard reduction burns were completed earlier in the year.
Climate change - No climate change is not starting fires. Lightening strikes, people, negligence is starting fires.
But Yes, climate change is contributing to increasing temperatures and increasing drought severity which is creating worsening fire conditions.
Yes, climate change is contributing to a longer fire season.
Yes, we should have acted on climate change long ago. All of us. The whole world. Everyone.
No, no one knows exactly how much climate change has contributed to exacerbating the conditions for this year's catestrophic fire season however the best science available and consensus is that there is an undeniable link.
Aerial firefighting - Yes, as the fire season grows longer and northern and southern hemisphere fire seasons overlap more and more, Australia will have to invest in its own aerial firefighting fleet and not rely on leasing from overseas. Perhaps we should have done this earlier. We didn't.
Politics and the media - Yes these fires have been politicised and yes our media is politicised.
If you're left leaning and read Fairfax newspapers, you're more likely to blame Scomo and the government right now for their response. If you're right leaning and read News Ltd newspapers you're more likely to blame the greens right now for 'stopping' hazard reduction burns. Your social media is politicised in the same way and will show and share media that supports your general position and most likely strengthen your own existing narrative.
No, a video on FB of a guy in the bush screaming at the greens is not facts about what caused these fires. No, a video of someone shouting at Scomo for not funding the NSW Rural Fire Service (state gov funded) is not facts about what caused these fires.
Has Scomo done enough? Should he have gone on holidays? If you know me you know I'm left leaning so my answer will naturally contain a bias.
The best solution? A royal commission. Let's let impartial experts tell us what went wrong and how to act in response to it. I think you'll find we're all a little bit right as well as a little bit wrong.
What can you do right now?? Fucking donate!! The Red Cross appeal, the Salvation Army, Wires, Port Macquarie Koala Hospital, your state Rural Fire Service. Whoever. Do your research and donate wisely.
On top of this, once the smoke clears, grab your mates or family, jump in the car and visit these towns, spend money in their shops, stay the night, help get their local economy's back on track. They will need our support.
To all of my firefighting brethren back home in Sydney, the Blue Mountains and the whole east coast, both career and volunteer, I know you've worked harder in the last 6 weeks than you've ever worked in your entire life and I'm so immensely proud of you all."
That bloke sums up my thinking exactly. Bloody well said.
thanks for sharing that indo - excellent post
And to ensure i don't totally ruin my right wing image with that last post, a post from Avi :D
Nice post Indo (not your last one, but the one before).
Fair and balanced, and from a person at the coal face (literally).
Off chops
Great post Indo, on the money
Yep great post ID.
I knew you guys would love Avi :P
Blowin re fire breaks they are really about access in benign conditions sure you can defend from them and build containment lines from them but in the current conditions on the east coast they are not going to do anything.
Live embers travel a long way then the radiant heat from a decent fire front will easily ignite over them.
The fire front fuel thing is gases and particles being released from the burning of vegetation (fuel) which draws in air (O2 thats the roar) which draws in more gases and particles and builds its own momentum.
Elevated temperatures and more importantly low humidity strong wind then every thing burns fuel loads pretty much become irreverent.
Oh and of course you must have Greenies as well to get a decent bush fire.
Firebreak just saved my mate’s house . They were still there with hoses of course, but the embers they ( sort of ) coped with. The large flames were mainly restricted to the tree line which was further back thanks to the firebreak.
This was East Coast a few days ago. Not all fires are the same.
You would expect with firebreaks it would depend on the type and height of bushland/forrest and dare i say fuel build up and then also the landscape shape.
For instance a decent width firebreak for low lying scrub on a flat landscape you would expect would work much better than the same firebreak width for a thick forrest with huge eucalyptus etc and be totally pointless if at the bottom of a hill where the fire all go straight up.
Surely there must be some basic calculations where efficiency of fire breaks widths reaches a certain point in most likely fire conditions for different type of bush land etc
what do people think about a royal commission?
Id actually support it, it would actually show that things have been managed a lot better than some are making out.
And it would also help people understand how these things work between state and all the departments and higher government, including funding.
I think it would actually work in the governments favour.
ID got a link to the poster of that FB message.
Yeah came through someone else, but here is the source, you can still see it and share it https://www.facebook.com/drewbpm/posts/10157504182930342
or here https://www.facebook.com/drewbpm/posts/10157504182930342
Thanks!
What’s the point of a Royal Commission ?
Pretty sure they’ve had one after every large fire for decades and they’re routinely ignored. As soon as the fire threat is passed its forgotten.
Can anyone calling for a RC or enquiry following these fire please explain what wouldn't be already clearly be known that a PM might learn and immediately act on if he actually got known experts in a room for a few days?
Calls for yet another enquiry or RC is just a cynical attempt to deflect attention away from the government's inaction. Remember it was Morrison who voted against a RC into banking 26 times arguing the government didn't want to delay action blah blah more butt gravy.
Victoria held a RC after the Black Saturday fires 12 years ago and all recommendations have been implemented except for the one on prescribed burning for very good scientific reasons that the government has accepted from the experts in the field.
Odd, but it's true the Vic government prefers to get their science from scientists and not some 3rd rate Murdoch journalists with infotainment programs on Fox.
Meanwhile ......
RC is a waste of time and money for everyone.
Depends on the terms of reference for the investigation.
They're set by the GG, who's currently General David John Hurley, appointed GG by Scott Morrison.
Make of that what you will.
I tend to think a lot of good could come from a broad, well-framed investigation.
ToR set by the GG? How’s that? The GG acts on the government’s instructions I would have thought or have moved to rule by benevolent monarchy that I’m not aware of. More info stu
Yeah, not sure, I could find out as I've got someone in the house who can't read a map, doesnt even know which way is north or south, on some days she couldn't even tell you which was is up or down, but she understands our judiciary system better than anyone.
But she's making dinner at the moment.
Biosphere 101. Just like human cells, the cosmic cell that is biosphere Planet Earth has an inbuilt mechanism to sustain homeostasis.
The biosphere of Planet Earth can be seen to have many properties replicating the self aware organism commonly called homo sapiens.
Cells exchange information through a membrane or through internal channels via ana electro magnetic transference. In homo sapiens it is mainly through a signal response return mechanism of sodium and potassium. Slight while it may be, it gives off a heat/ electro magnetic charge that registers within a larger conductive field, that being the atmosphere of biosphere earth which of course we know has a north pole, a south pole and a core of attracting stuff that creates a more or less- dynamo. Now as Einstein postulated, a physical mass bigger than other physical masses will always dictate what happens within the gravitational field of those said masses.
As all of life has been imbued with the primal directive of existing, it is only natural that biosphere earth has an inbuilt awareness of sustainable adaptation to continued existence.
Just like a human cell/body that receives a signal that a virus, a componant, a part of the cell has misread a signal of existence and is indeed an agent of destruction, rather than construction- outside the parameters of sustainable reproduction/existence- it will use the dna(energy postulations within that dimension) to recorrect- recalibrate- get the attention, of the out of synch part within itself to either change it ways, be willing to re evaluate it's awareness or to erase that part to continue an existence that is sustainable and functional. Read water, fire, wind.
Homo sapiens are like mitochondria of biosphere planet earth, always zapping here, zapping here- stop your thinking- hard isnt it- so i leave you with an easy, easy way to reconfigure homo sapiens future.
Bring back one of your happiest moments- go on- a moment that thrills or gives you goose bumps.
go on.
Not trying to be Pollyanna, but a foundation builds whats upon it
.What foundation will we build here my Swellnet friends???? It is as simple as a choice.I
Thanks you to all of you, you all have enriched my life.
The part of you that thinks it has all the answers is the part of you that is asking the incorrect question.
Homo sapiens to survive and thrive would best be to grow through an awareness and total attachment to seperation and to embrace an awareness of oness, uniqueness, individuality embracing diversity and a trust that that life loves us.
Meanwhile in the middle East,
"The Department of Defense has confirmed: “At approximately 5:30 p.m. (EST) on January 7, Iran launched more than a dozen ballistic missiles against U.S. military and coalition forces in Iraq. It is clear that these missiles were launched from Iran and targeted at least two Iraqi military bases hosting U.S. military and coalition personnel at Al-Assad and Irbil.”
"Iran’s Tasnim news agency is now quoting Iranian officials warning that if the US retaliates against these strikes in Iraq, Hezbollah will fire rockets at Israel — a threat to widen the conflict and bring Iran’s regional allies into play."
The madness continues....
An RC is a must as already pointed out depending on the terms of reference but it will / could give the government cover both state and federal to increase funding, change ideology and get the correct proportionate response to the various aspects fuel loads, building codes, climate etc.
Also should governments not act it can be used to help bludgeon them when we get to this point again.
Clearly much was taken from the Victorian fires Australia wide given the size and intensity of the fires tragic lives lost are quite low in number when you look at the number of homes lost (2000)
@Blowin
Check out this guys videos on fuel reduction burns comparing different areas wherefore has gone through, (one post below the others too with map) obviously just going off what he says so only his word so not saying it's concrete evidence of anything and we don't know other aspects that might have been an affect like wind strengths or direction etc but its still interesting especially if what he is saying is true, i don't know who he is, just popped up in my feed via someone else and yes he does seem religious but also looks like has past experience with Forest fire management Victoria
Link not working
Missing link?
Governments set the Terms of Reference (ToR) for Royal Commissions (RC) except where a majority in he House of Representatives force the government's hand e.g. the Banking Royal Commission.
It is an absolute truism in politics that governments (from all sides) never call an enquiry or a RC unless the outcome is already known and that is why there is always so much argument about the ToR. And for this reason I am opposed to a new enquiry or RC into these fires.
There are any number of professional highly trained experts available as are the recommendations of the Black Saturday Royal Commission (Vic) to inform the government now, as Scotty from Marketing argued. when he voted against the Banking Royal Commission 26 times.
All known factors are known but for a government federal and NSW state government looking for cover on its appalling track record on environmental and climate matters and funding cuts what better to do that than call for a RC. After all, the important thing here is not doing something its "appearing" to be doing something. A RC also deflects attention away from its business as usual approach to climate action/denial.
.... and for those still banging on about fuel reduction burns (gee over at Fox that must be all they are saying these days) yet another expert says it's not the magic pill, but hey, why fucking well listen to experts when there are infotainment journalists ...........
https://www.theage.com.au/national/hazard-reduction-burns-are-not-the-pa...
Hmmm that's weird works okay for me on pc and phone
Shows a Facebook fist with a bandaged thumb saying page is not available.
Horrible result of Zuckerberg’s first foray into shelving ?
Pills or IKEA.....the joke still works. Well, as much as it was ever going to work.
Wait....so the fire commissioner is saying that a lack of FHR on his watch isn’t to blame for the fires ? It’s as if he is defending his job !
And that they may not work , but he still did way more of them than he was supposed to ?
And that he would have done more except there wasn’t any opportunity and he was underfunded?
That interview with the commissioner is him protecting his job. It’s also him saying that whilst FHR may not eradicate fires , it’s the best and only option we have and that it’d be great if we could do it everywhere, we can’t due to funding , opportunity and risk to houses.
So , yes.....it fucking does make a difference. The only available difference often enough and if you had thick scrub surrounding your place , you’d wish it was thinned as much as possible too as a hectic fire bears down on your property and family.
And here is what a dumb fuck who’s got a PHD in forestry and a career in forest management has to say....
https://theconversation.com/theres-only-one-way-to-make-bushfires-less-p...
Here’s his resume ....
Rod has a B. Sc. (Forestry) from the ANU and a PhD in forest ecology from University of British Columbia. His was Director of the Victorian Centre for Climate Change Adaptation Research from 2009-14, a research partnership between Victorian universities. He was formerly research program leader in the Bureau of Rural Sciences and Head of the Department of Forest and Ecosystem Science at the University of Melbourne. He has research interests in forests and climate change, forest ecosystem services, forest resource assessment and environmental policy and has undertaken research in Canada, Japan and Papua New Guinea. He was a member and past-Chair of the UN-FAO Advisory Group for the Global Forest Resource Assessment.
Experience
–present Head, Department Forest and Ecosystem Science, The University of Melbourne
2009–present Director VCCCAR, The University of Melbourne
Education
1993 University of British Columbia, PhD Forest Ecology
Ok sorry i know what it might be, it might only be viewable to people with friends in common with the guy, im not a fb friend of his but one of my fb friends is, so it must be set to friends and friends of friends opposed to being set as a public viewable post.
Yeah anyway it was focused on an area of recent fires in east victoria where he lives and he showed in quite detail going through the online vic gov map (zoomed in) that shows where recent fires have burned and he showed the areas that had been controlled burned last year and also about 5 years ago (quite large areas) one area was divided by a narrow dirt road one side was not control burned other side had been.
You can see quite clearly how the fires have run out of energy/fuel once they hit the controlled burned area, there is some areas where it's crossed into the previously burned areas but the fire has then lost its energy.
He then had other videos where he goes out and shows these areas, even where the fire has gone into the previously controlled burned area, you can see the signs the fire had gotten smaller and less intense when it hit the previously burned areas, the area that hadn't been controlled burned trees burnt right to canopy other areas where the fire had entered into the previously controlled burned areas the high canopy is not burnt, you can see signs that the fire has lost it's intensity (loosing its energy as it goes until it has gone out)
Makes complete sense when you think about it.
Anyway interesting to see real life scenarios/examples, obviously you cant burn the whole bush to prevent fires and to do so would be devastating to wildlife , but controlled burns must surely be a way of helping control the intensity of fires and helping ensure they lose energy in areas where you want to avoid fires like around towns houses etc
Even if the fire enters the control burned areas due to lack of fuel the intensity of the fire is less, so easier to control or even put out.
He also showed bush that was still slowly burning 1 metre type flames like a control burn and explained that this is the perfect kind of burning because it allows most animals to escape because of the speed and intensity is low, which also makes complete sense, opposed to a fully loaded bush fire that moves quickly and super intense. (no escape for any animals as moving too fast and even the canopy is a blaze)
Anyway it's not anything we already don't know and its obviously why they do controlled burns, but it was interesting to see real examples both on a map and after examples of burnt bush etc
BTW. one thing i dont get about Australia is why we dont use our military forces more for these kind of things.
In Indonesia if anything happens no matter how big or small the military is brought in straight away, they are the backbone of any response..
Obviously every country needs a military and you pay them, but in reality they really don't do as much as they could, why not put them to work, even if you have to pay a little extra.
IMHO Should just be standard practise to get military more involved in these type of events..
I’d rather our military just keep practicing neutralising fuckwits .
The fact that our military is smaller than the Indo military is more than mitigated by the Oz defence force being almost continuously deployed into conflict zones of one sort or another. Our crew are battle hardened , practiced and professional warriors .
So if another Konfrantasi eventuates , we can rest assured that our pro forces will again negate the amateur Indo military/ reserve labour force. It’d be a different outcome to the persecuting of a few west Papuan militias if the Indo military took on Our crew.
"Our crew are battle hardened , practiced and professional warriors ."
By and large, that should read "battle hardened , practiced and professional mercenaries ."
Who cares ?
If you’ve got a military, better that they’re good for more than just rebuilding roads ( poorly ) like the Indo forces.
There is a reason we have a military. I’d prefer they were experts at their job.
Wouldn’t you ?
Guy.....sorry , mate. It’s a load of shit.
As I’ve said repeatedly , there hasn’t been a reduction burn or any other type of fire around here - and I’m talking about two seperate locations- in at least 15 years.
Excuse me , there was one minor burn , which was appreciated , a couple of years ago .
No opportunity in 15 years to attempt to mitigate fire in two areas prone to bushfires......fuck off.
That’s about man power and funding, not climactic conditions. For fucks sake .....climate change is already being blamed for all kinds of retrospective inaction and mismanagement. The drought we have experienced for the last 18 months only existed in the last 18 months.
I recall normal summer flooding in recent years which was entirely predictable , winter rains ....and was there fire reduction occurring?
No !!!!
It’s not climate change denial or refusal to cede to the “ new normal “ ( haha ...wait till the floods in the next year or two ) of our perennial drought to say that these fucks had ample opportunity to do what they could.
They were hampered by lack of resources. Got FUCK ALL to do with climate change.
Edit : I didn’t read the link within the link which just referred to strong Westerlies preceding cold southerly changes, I thought it was saying that there would be a biannual drought and fire crises.
You get more right wing by the week Blowin.
You and Indo are the resident ball-cuppers
Right wing ?
What are you talking about ?
Nup , not helpful.
I’m not sure how I’m right wing cause of my views on the fires ?
Perhaps I’m misrepresenting myself with my words ? Maybe you are mistaken in what you think I’m saying ?
Exactly what do you think my viewpoint is ?
You think that the long established practice of mitigating fire intensity by controlled burn is right wing ?
You think that my anger at underfunded fire fighting service’s underwhelming fire reduction activities in the local area , which have exacerbated the threat from an extremely dry summer and already threatened family once this year , is right wing ?
Have it cunts