Submitted by Blowin on Fri, 06/21/2019 - 08:01
Talking points worthy of further discussion without devolving into insult.
But back to the latest point - is the hyperbole too much and "especially considering the lack of fruition of some of the past over the top claims."
Well, let's forget about quibbling over potential sea level rise and possible future changes in weather and look at what is real and what has actually happened.
Due to the destruction of wild habitat for farming, logging and development, humanity has caused the loss of 83% of all wild mammals and 50% of plants.
Also, human population has increased by more than 5.5 billion people in the last 100 years!
That's billion with a b.
Surely that's enough fruition for at least a little hyperbole.
The kids should be shitting themselves.
Yes the biggest issue man is facing is unsustainable population growth, it's what fuels almost every environmental issue.
But it's rarely talked about?
But then again is there any point talking about it?, it's not like we can have a cull, sadly things are only going to get worse.
BTW. It's not good news but those stats have still been proven as misleading https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/11/animal-decline-living...
Reality is though for us humans we will just keep on kicking on dominating the planet, we are in no way under threat of going extinct, its like if you go to Java, it's the most populated island on earth, pretty much been stripped of native forest and animals species and as much as that sucks, its actually still a nice very liveable place and actually rich and green.
Don't fret too much about "overpopulation" apparently there is a plan to address your concerns.
The Wigner Effect? High level radiation?
I've tried to stay out of climate change arguments for quite some time now, because both side are full of bullshit, utter utter bullshit.
Quibble: blowin and craig are smart guys, one of them with qualifications (I'm guessing). Their little sea level rise quibble a few weeks ago didn't bode well for cc alarmists, despite craig's best efforts to be reasonable, helpful, and convincing.
I don't believe for one second these cities will be 'erased' by 2050...
I don't believe there'll be a mass extinction either. actually I do, we're in it, but cc is the least contributing factor behind population, mass migration, low density housing, over development generally, fetishising economic growth, a general lack of respect, and corruption of government and process...
The coral reefs are not leaving the planet in the next 20 years; 100 years; 500 years; 1000 years. they will change, migrate, colonise, etc.etc. but they are not vacating the planet anytime soon...
Humans are not dying from cc anytime soon either
Trees are probably dying already in certain areas, but anyone with an inkling of science knowledge knows they'll be colonising somewhere else too - if humans allow them...
I'm sorry but 90 % of the daily crap we now hear is bullshit
That Will guy a couple of months ago on here drove some of you guys crazy, but he raised pretty much every question I have re. cc. It was almost a mirror image of a conversation some of us had with benski years ago. benski, who's now mia, did a wonderful civil job debating the 'facts', but didn't really refute that much...
Here we are years later with a no more convincing argument from cc. advocates. if anything it's gone backwards.
Meanwhile the denialists have gotten their shit together. all spruiking the wares of a japanese climate scientist who broke ranks and appeared in a quadrant article. suspiciously the article appeared just after Will had a go here (where's willy now?). really really suspiciously it was almost word for word with Will's contributions.... but that doesn't change their good arguments (for some of us)...
I don't deny cc as a thing, I reckon I've seen it's effects in my short lifetime. that definitely shouldn't happen if it's not a thing, but I just cannot believe the bullshit being peddled atm.
How to not scare the children? educate them. don't indoctrinate them
stick to the facts, tell the truth, give them the big picture wholistic argument. which means talking about population, mass migration, lifestyles, alternatives, possibilities, and economic growth!! judging by our resident science teacher, most of these things are barely mentioned, if at all. actually, he's still advocating for many of these things to continue, whilst screaming like chicken little ...not real convincing...
"Due to the destruction of wild habitat for farming, logging and development, humanity has caused the loss of 83% of all wild mammals and 50% of plants."
This stuff concerns me way more than climate change given the current tone of debate
way way more
but this stuff is getting totally crowded out, due to the current tone of debate!
On a more positive note. Someone in labor has actually been listening...
...been a long long time since I've agreed with every word a labor politician has said
....and now the bama is in on the act...
about bloody time someone of 'the left' said it...
Can't imagine the woke thing going anywhere too soon, it's too easy and too potent. It can shut down unwanted conversation and make someone look like a prick quite easily, regardless of the original context or intent.
It's interesting how this seems to be playing out.
Around the Byron Shire, it entrenches the "wall of positive noise" approach, where everything is rainbows and unicorns.
Everyone walks the same lines and spouts the same platitudes.
#Best version of yourself
It's funny though, there's a rise in the awareness of "toxic positivity"!!
How woke is that!!
"Toxic positivity is an oppressive tendency to react to others' suffering and struggles with empty and reductive statements of positivity."
Cunts can all get rooted if you ask me.
By the way, wasn't Obama totes woke?
Hashtag that last sentence.
Spread the word.
"...It's interesting how this seems to be playing out.
Around the Byron Shire, it entrenches the "wall of positive noise" approach, where everything is rainbows and unicorns.
Everyone walks the same lines and spouts the same platitudes."
Yep yep yep
I tend to frequent byron like communities from time to time. that 'wall of positive noise' approach is wearing real thin real quick. not least because it crushes the ability to debate anything. not to mention the burning irony of them all being so 'woke' and so ignorant at the same time.
It's come from decades of boomer dogma about positive thinking. its easy to think positive when you are the one selfishly holding all the cards, and all of the means to facillitate just about everything, whilst facillitating nothing but your own wealth
then they all started flogging the 'mindfulness' thingy, whilst projecting the 'fuck you jack' attitude to anyone not privelaged or brainwashed enough to be on board
the corporate dogs are even flogging 'mindfulness' in their staff training. as I once saw on oprah, yes oprah! (irony alert) once the concept has been marketed enough to make it to the boardrooms, you know it's pretty much lost it's way
the mindlessness of the cool set and yoga godesses in places like bali and byron is just flat out astounding
'toxic positivity' ain't that the truth!
...and yes, just for a bit of balance, cos it's all about balance and mindfulness....
haha, that last sentence is a doozy
my new mantra...
Sypkan did a really good post in the Nike/Hurley article (31Oct 3:43pm) and asked why so much that is currently fubar was not called out by the left. I've come across this article by CHS that suggests that the way we view things (left-right, working/middle/upper class) is no longer valid:
Take a little time to ponder his points. I reckon it answers a lot of the back-and-forth banter on these forums. If we are to view modern 'class' like he suggests, then it is entirely logical that a member of the Protected Class beats members of the Working Poor/'Muddle Class' over the head about climate change. It is also easy to explain the Gilets Jaunes, Brexit, Trump, Dutch Farmers, Queensland voters, Chilean protests, Syrian riots, and much upheaval going on worldwide through this lens.
It also explains tradies doing so well compared to graduates of many degrees.
"All of which leads us to a highly verboten conclusion: both political parties and the corporate media have abandoned the 2/3 of the workforce that is working/middle class. The bottom 20% dependent on government transfers has more security than those earning just enough to disqualify the household for transfers, while the top 15% in the Protected Class are doing just fine unless they're over-indebted."
It's an eye opener for me, I'd rejected any notion of 'class struggle' shortly after having to read Polanyi and friends as an undergraduate; but I'm entertaining that it exists and explains everything really well, only the 'classes' shifted. Welcome to 1848.
Sypkan just read the last 3 IPCC reports of CC, understand then (99% don't read them but are all experts) and stick with the science in conjunction with probability.
This is quite surprising that it would even be proposed in Indonesia, even in Australia the left get all upset if its suggested.
"A suggestion proposed by President Joko “Jokowi” Widodo’s minister to ban the niqab in government offices has triggered mixed responses among officials and politicians amid the country’s apparent fight against radicalism.
While some supported the plan to ban the niqab in government compounds, others disapproved of it and demanding that the government not intervene in the dress decisions of Muslim women.
The idea of the ban was first put on the table by Religious Affairs Minister Fachrul Razi, who said Wednesday that his office was studying the plan and might recommend a regulation on the ban, CNNIndonesia.com reported, though he has since backtracked on his statement.
"There might be further measures, but we are not banning the niqab, but we are banning it from government offices for security reasons, especially after what happened to Pak Wiranto," Fachrul said as reported by CNNIndonesia.com, referring to a recent attack against former coordinating political, legal and security affairs minister Wiranto."
here’s evidence of the climate change conspiracy of the bullshit scientific community
Mmmm, there goes the Dandenong market fantasy next time in Indo then ........
"it crushes the ability to debate anything. not to mention the burning irony of them all being so 'woke' and so ignorant at the same time."
" the 'fuck you jack' attitude to anyone not privelaged or brainwashed enough to be on board"
So there you have it, the ignorance, the hypocrisy, the selfishness and the narcissism.
The regression of parts of The Left.
It's quite a personal topic for me, my sister has embraced the ethos with both hands and it's painful to see, not to mention it's basically ruined our relationship.
I mean, who would say on multiple occasions that when she's asked "the universe for it to rain, it did"?
And who would let her blonde haired, blue-eyed 7 year old son get second degree sunburn twice in a week (!) because "the sun doesn't cause cancer, sunscreen causes cancer"?
And so on.
I kind of understand the driving factors behind this worldview, but I still don't get it.
What did I call it a while back - a retarded tribal badge of honour?
Andy - I wouldn’t worry about the global population, Blindboy says the models are indicating that global numbers are meant to peak sometime, somewhere.
And you know how accurate models are , so it’s obviously all good. We’ve got nothing to worry about .
PS Suck my dick. ( Not you Andy ) .
“Once the population has reached its carrying capacity, it will stabilize and the exponential curve will level off towards the carrying capacity, which is usually when a population has depleted most of its natural resources.”
Doesn’t sound like a smart way to approach things.
I would like to know when the point is reached that common sense prevails and we realize that climate change is because there are too many humans......thats right there is no common sense....silly me.
Morrison is now dishonestly conflating two different issues.
He is using the Melbourne climate protesters as a dishonest smoke screen to attack the very effective work being done by conservationist groups in corporate boardrooms around the world in persuading large insurance, engineering, finance and construction companies against working for indefensible projects like Adani.
The fact that he has spoken about this matter is proof of the effectiveness of the conservationists’ work. Fact: Adani is finding it extremely difficult to get businesses to work for it, the project is seriously behind schedule for this reason.
The fact that he spoke at a Queensland Minerals Council is further proof of the lobbyists’ web influencing Canberra against the long term best interest of the country.
Another act in a global trend of right wing populist governments trying to shut down expressions of free speech that oppose their doctrinal ideology .... and the so-called Liberal Party were once the fiercest defenders of free speech and the rights of the individual.
ps donated another $50 to the ACF today in support of their excellent work in this area.
In the modern corporate oligarchy we exist under , perhaps consumer activism and voting with the dollar is the only true democracy left to us all ?
Scomo and his business Capital puppeteers would do well to remember that he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. If they truly wish to reduce Australia to nothing more than an Economic Zone and its people to nothing more than units of consumption/ labour , then it is with economic power that we shall demonstrate the power of the many against the threat from the few.
Populism isn’t right wing or left wing. It’s the people’s demand for a return to democracy.
Good couple of posts.
If we have a two party system where each of the majors are just flip sides of the same coin, there will have to be other ways to protest, and this one, in this system, is proving to be highly effective.
But it'll be an ongoing battle.
The Competition and Consumer Act already contains civil penalties for secondary boycotts, which target one business in order to prevent provision of goods or services to another, including if they cause “substantial loss or damage” or substantially lessen competition.
However, secondary boycotts for the “dominant purpose” of environmental protection or consumer protection are permitted.
But ol' Scummo will be aiming to shut this down as well
He pointed to the “worrying development” of environmental groups targeting businesses or firms involved in the mining sector with “secondary boycotts”, such as businesses refusing to provide banking, insurance or consultancy services.
"We are working to identify mechanisms that can successfully outlaw these indulgent and selfish practices that threaten the livelihoods of fellow Australians.”
It's pretty clear there is problems.
1. Activist trespassing and break and entering into farms, often intentionally leaving gates open to let out livestock, even stealing livestock.
2. Activist blocking streets and doing crazy shit like gluing themselves to roads as seen by ER.
3. Activist physically preventing people from entering buildings to do business as seen in Melbourne this week.
People have a right to protest peacefully and legally, but they dont have the right to do what they are doing which is breaking the law, disrupting the life and even business of others, or even intentionally trying to destroy business.
I take my hat off to Scomo and i take my hat off to police in Melbourne this week for actually showing some balls, bringing in the horses and using pepper spray.
What we need now is much harsher laws and penalty's for those that reoffend, we need mandatory type sentencing, judges should not be able to just let these people off scott free.
The irony of these protestors and those against Adani etc is they are their own worst enemy.
Yeah great lets force Adani to go elsewhere to get coal, lets force them to source lower quality coal that will increase carbon emissions, the crazy thing is these people think, hey if Australia doesnt allow our coal to be used China and India will just stop using coal (we really need emoji buttons)
Lets protest against mining the very companies that provide the minerals needed to produce renewables, yeah great makes total sense.
But thats the left for you, logic and reason is not their strong point.
That’s a very slippery slope you propose ID. And I don’t think it’s a good fit for a free democratic Australia.
Scomo doesn’t want private enterprise to be subject to political will , but he’s all for private enterprise enacting as an agent of political power. Particularly when you consider that the LNP is now nothing more or less than a pure vehicle for the political whims of Capital.
Waiting for the day he tells the likes of Frank Lowe and Alan Joyce to pull their heads in , with their politically influential admonishments bolstered by their economic and corporate clout.
Indo in favour of furthering the pre-police state - who woulda thunk it.
Indo, you do realise the recent climate protester events and what Morrison is talking about re: outlawing secondary boycotts are two different things?
Outlawing secondary boycotts, now that's an interesting proposition ............
APRA and the RBA are warning companies of their legal responsibilities of acting in the best interests of their shareholders when it comes to climate change. So, a bank decides not to invest in a new coal mine because it's too risky for shareholders funds yet Morrison is saying that's not good enough. So what laws should the company obey? Laws that require directors to act in the best interests of the shareholder or the current day climate change/emergency denying LNP government?
Anyone else sees the irony of the party that's meant to be the free market party interfering in the market yet again?
Blowin wrt oligarchy
You ever read The Iron Heel - Jack London.
Worth a look, it's on Gutenburg
‘IF YOU UNDERSTAND, things are just as they are;
if you do not understand, THINGS ARE JUST AS THEY ARE.’
Haven't really noticed any boycotts here, did any of you follow the Palestinian BDS (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) of Israel? It got shut down by laws in the US, & elsewhere as well. In fact, there's some law in Texas that (iirc) requires companies bidding for state contracts to swear allegiance to Israel, weird AF.
The other bit is all the diesel vans around here with 'Big Oil Don't Surf' on them, powered by big oil. Facepalm.
So Cathay Pacific are sacking staff who support the free democracy movement in HK.
So Morrison is it okay to boycott Cathay Pacific or not?
ID, seriously mate.
You a regular 2GB listener?
Well he certainly wouldn’t listen to the ABC, what with those filthy lefties like Amanda Vanstone and Tom Switzer.
Actually ive never listened to 2GB, i listen to ABC most days while working
(i work for myself so can listen to what i like and most days its ABC and its something ive said numerous times here, so not just saying i do for the sake of this post)
BTW. That women that has taken over from John faine in the mornings it's early days but IMHO so far she seems heaps heaps better than John.
If anyone has been listening to her on the issue of protestors in Melbourne this week, although she is trying her best to not let her personal bias come through, i think she is taking the view that i am and making some (not all) of the same points.
Because she has been pretty persistent in highlighting some of the things i am, I even heard some obvious left leaning listeners ring up and complain and BTW if you listen to ABC you would also know the call back and SMS have varied views.
If it was John faine, he would have just kept banging on about police using to much force...and that would have been it.
Personally it seriously does my head in, protestors go in and use intimidation tactics basically bullying people just trying to go about their daily life, physically preventing them from entering buildings, yelling abuse 3ft away from their faces and then they play poor innocent me when they dont listen to the cops to move and let people through and get capsicum sprayed or need to bring in the horses.
Think about this for a second, how would you feel if i came around to your house or work place with a group of 50 people and tried to prevent you from entering? (and yelled abuse in your face for good measure)
Or what about if an anti islamic group decided to use the same tactics to prevent muslims from entering a mosque to pray..also fair game?
Or what about if i broke into your property and stole your dog or cat, perhaps your vegan and dont feed your pet meat, so hey its my right to break in and steal your pet right?.
Oh but that is different, because its a business and not a house and the livestock are not pets..oh please spare me the BS.
If your cool with it all, dont go complaining when religious people etc start doing the same shit at abortion clinics, or safe injection centres, or brothels etc
Or far right groups do the same thing to some groups they have opposing views too.
Yes yes the anti abortion people have already done the Abortion clinic thing, i think hassling women entering and picketing outside the centres, and guess what centres now how exclusion zones in most states of a few hundred metres and rightly so, because it doesn't mater what your personal or moral views are, you shouldn't have the right to screw other people over.
BTW. Some of these protestors are serial protestors, media are even reporting that police are filming them to identify individuals, and they are preparing for the same people to be protesting at the races, lets hope the ones that punched and slapped police horses in the face dont turn up...but seeing the hypocrisy they normally show it wouldn't be any surprise.
IMHO these people are just addicted to the buzz of attention, social disobedience and thrill of confrontation with police.
I just wish they would go to mining towns to protest and blockade, now they would be real interesting to see how it goes down.
Ph: 1800 187 263,
Haaha, I couldn’t help myself and had to call...
The Sane Helpline??
Really INDO you would love it up in NSW Gladys past legislation that protests or any gathering except a funeral is or can be classed as criminal in NSW on Crown estate.
Think about a kids birthday party in a park and that is crown estate?
ABSOLUTELY NOT purple pills, i have absolutely NO issue with people legally protesting, for example although i might have mocked them, those protest by the kids the other month, were generally peaceful and legal, they should have every right to peacefully and legally protest. (no matter the issue/topic or group)
But the protest we have seen of late like this week in Melbourne or by ER the other week or vegan groups and farms, are COMPLETELY different.
The tactics they use are illegal and go against the rights of law abiding citizens going about their daily lives and business.
Those type of laws you have a link to are as a result of groups ABUSING the right to protest peacefully and legally.
Andy, I'm here to help. Alternatively, the usual suspect netizens on this suspect thread could try:
Ph: 13 18 73
illegal protests I can remember on a Sunday - the Springbok tour of Australia during the apartheid era; the draft protests against the Vietnam War and how there was special treatment handed out by Joh in Queensland during those times, Farmers occupying their own land in Shut the gate protests against fracking, sea shepherd, Greenpeace, and the recent climate action ... lock them up criminals the lot of them.
Mandela, Gandhi, the Civil Rights movement in the US and now HK .... all illegal.
Do it for the greta good.
The big problem we are facing is serial protestors.
Take the protestors this week for example in Melbourne.
Should all be arrested?...No those peacefully protesting have the right to protest.
Then who should be arrested?
Simple, the ones that are physically preventing people from entering the building, the others standing back not getting physically involved are not the problem.
Same goes with ER target the ones that glue themselves or lock themselves to things, in the case of the vegan farm issue, well anyone who trespasses onto the farm.
Obviously other aspects should be taken into account, back to melbourne protest, did they move when police ordered?..
Did they hit horses in the face?
Did they spit on people?
The common sense approach would be to have a three strike system, illegally protest three times and you lose your right to protest, because you can't be trusted to obey the law.
First offence a warning, second offence a fine and community service, third offence jail time and a life ban from being within a certain distance of any protest.
Three chances is plenty, its a very premeditated crime.
Very quickly you will see this problem sorted out, because for the majority of protest the ones on the front-line that actually break the law are the same people time and time again, it doesn't matter what the protest is about, they are there.
Will it mean people cant protest?...not at all people would still be able to protest peacefully and legally.
And if there is some crazy issue where you really think its worth getting arrested for because you think you are going to join guys list above, well you are only going to get a warning anyway.
But if you are a serial protester and a serial pest to society...well you are going to be dealt with.
The real problem currently is in the courts, repeat offenders get treated like first offenders and wear arrest as a badge of honour, the system is not taking things seriously, hence why there needs to mandatory sentencing fir repeat offenders.
I've always wanted to see what happens to a person who super-glues themselves to something and they're actually left there?
You know, when the sun starts setting, everyone is all tired and shouted out, people go home or shuffle off to the pub and the one lone warrior is left, palms glued to the footpath, crickets chirping, reflecting on how maybe that wasn't such a good idea.
Please please please let that happen one day:)
Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.
Simple. All the infractions that illegal protesters performed are covered by existing laws. Trespass, public nuisance, vandalism. All can be dealt with using existing laws.
Scummo is trying to introduce laws that will stifle democracy and target those who do not support the LNP/mining companies/agribusiness/IPA,(it’s one big shit pile of the same people)
Beat me to it Soggy, that's exactly what's going on.
The law and state power, backed by force, are used to thwart those who challenge dominant groups i.e. the state and also corporations.
Those who accept the absolute legitimacy of the state invariably take a narrow view of civil disobedience; those who question the state take a broader view.
Is it morally legitimate to break just laws in order to protest against unjust ones?
A broad perspective, which sees civil disobedience as part of a wider struggle for social justice, especially in a society which has corrupted the normal channels of protest, answers yes.
So it's obvious that the arguments about civil disobedience are part of a wider struggle in which the authority and power of the state are at stake.
The question is, how far would people like Indo go?
People who unquestioningly accept the full legitimacy of the state, and who would be happy to imprison or assault protestors (piss on 'em eh Indo?)?
You know, laugh as they get dragged away.
What did I say a while back - " I can also see that the human condition hasn't changed and in certain circumstances, anything is possible, anywhere."