Andrew Chan - Myuran Sukumaran
Legends udo? Scumbags one and all.
yeah BB....I agree with your comments on the Indo's.......ya coulda put 3rd world before though!
wingnut2443 wrote:Why do so many Aussies feel it is OK to tell Indo how to run THEIR country? Why so much main stream media doing so? Why so many pollies? Why so much from average joe aussie(s) across the internet and social media?
Imagine if it was the other way around ... most of these people, journo's, pollies, joe public who are all so vocal now would be pissed that another country was trying to tell us, Australia, what to do ...
Horrid precedent is being set here ... very difficult for Australia to now turn around and tell others to mind their own business next time there is an "issue" of international sensitivity?
Don't get me wrong, I believe EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion. From religion to death penalty, etc ... but, to go so far as to lobby and pressure another country and its government when the laws are VERY CLEAR?
As a stupid example, but to highlight the point ... imagine people coming here and deciding to drive on the right hand side of the road "because that's what happens in their country" ... the chaos, the impact? Yep, stupid example, but simple to simply highlight the point.
Each country has THEIR rules, THEIR laws ... you travel their, you respect them. Simple.
Why do so many think it is OK now, on this issue, to tell another country what to do?
The crazy thing is people think people power will work on changing Indos views or minds, we are a nation of 25 million, Indo 250 Million if they ever get upset at us over something even if only 15% of there population gave support there would still be more people in support than the whole of Australia.
Just an non related interesting fact, Indonesia is the most populated muslim country on earth, but there is actually more people in Indonesia that calls themselves Christians/Catholics than Australia only about 25 million.
I don't have a problem with people not being for the death penalty etc and every country has the right to try to help there own, but once the decisions made you got to respect it, all talks of boycotts etc over two drug smugglers is just crazy and not good for our important relations and when you start playing them games it never ends and in the long run we would lose.
And the thing that really sucks is there will probably be about ten surfers that boycott Indo and a thousand more that will go for the first time, thinking yay everyones boycotted its going to be uncrowded.
Personally if these two have really reformed there last pubic words to the media should be a public statement, warning others not to do the same and that its really not worth it, that would be well respected not just In Australia but also Indonesia and even if only a few people listen will save lifes.
I agree with you 100% on that one Indo.
No matter ones personal views on the death penalty, the law in Indo is very clear. They rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.
I hope the message is not lost on anyone else who thinks they can outsmart the system.
I don't often agree with Alan Jones... But as he said on Q & A, "if we had the death penalty here, Lindy Chamberlain would've been murdered by the state".
Then of course there was Andrew Mallard... Spent 12 years in prison... He'd be dead too.... Doco is really worth watching, showing corruption in the force just to get a conviction
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/wrongedman/default.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/specials/wrongedmantwo/default.htm
1 in 24 executed in the USA later found innocent..... Not bad, unless you are the 1 in 24... Look at a classroom of kids.... one of them.........
That's why I am anti death penalty and pro life in jail with no parole.....
Indo, would you find it "sad" if it was a white person, a girl maybe? If it was pot? After all, the law is the law... So why should leniency be shown for any form of drug smuggling?
"I still think she took the blame for her brother without thinking about the consequences, its a sad story no matter what the truth is" - indo 19/10/2014
Gday wingnut.... I'm not telling the Indo government how to run their country... I just don't agree with the death penalty..... But sometimes you do have to stand up to certain governments, for example South Africa - Mandella -Apartheid ..... I'm not real keen on executing girls for going to school or female genital mutilation either.... I'm not keen on what North Korea does to its own people, and I support the sanctions
Other countries politicians/peoples have every right to voice an opinion. People, governments and organizations are constantly lobbying the Australian government on various issues to do with how Australia is governed or Australian legal processes. Indonesia argues for the protection of its citizens in similar situations facing death penalties in foreign countries. Its the way of the world.
Talking of how these guys should face up to their convictions and accept responsibility for what they have done and then going on to describe how heroin has killed some of your friends is total hipocracy, heroin didn't kill your friends or destroy their lives, those they took it made a conscious decision, they knew the risks. Blaming traffickers, dealers or the actual drug for deaths is the same as blaming Carlton Brewery for a drink driving fatality. Why is there no recognition for personal responsibility when it comes to drug use?
If you think these guys were the ring leaders or that killing two young men for a drug crime, that is nothing more than a crime against religious morality, is going to have the slightest affect on the drug trade think again, it far too lucrative, the people at the top are untouchable.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/suspected-bali-nine-mastermind-living-in-...
All of the above Sheepy, but until then be it smack or weed or aspirin the law is crystal clear in Indo, don't traffic drugs. If you choose to, you may pay with your life. Looks like these blokes are going to, sad is it may be, but they had a choice back then and in retrospect for them, it was the wrong one.
Sheepdog wrote:Indo, would you find it "sad" if it was a white person, a girl maybe? If it was pot? After all, the law is the law... So why should leniency be shown for any form of drug smuggling?
"I still think she took the blame for her brother without thinking about the consequences, its a sad story no matter what the truth is" - indo 19/10/2014
Until people pointed it out, i didn't even notice the colour of these two skin to me there as Aussie can be, and sex or looks is irrelevant.
On the Sharpelle thing I've always swayed from thinking her brother did it too really not knowing, and I've never had a strong view either way.
There very different cases, Sharpelles is a standard one person drug mule with a drug that even in Indo isn't viewed like heroin is.
These two were in charge of a drug ring, of six others that had heroin strapped to them its really not comparing apples with apples, and even In Indonesia there courts take all these things into account, plus evidence that goes against them like the fact they stayed in separate hotels and planned to take separate fights than the others to lower there risk letting the others take the blame, and evidence that they had threatened harm to mules families if the backed out, all this and more is taken into account in an Indonesian court just like it would be in Australia.
And don't forget even though the six others had heroin strapped to them which you obviously can't claim you have no idea about, they only receive sentences.(thats actually a pretty good result really)
I understand your points on the risk of putting people to death if there is a doubt of guilt, but in this case there is no doubt of guilt, so its probably the worse case the Australian public could pick for there cause.
If for some crazy reason Sharpelle got the death sentence, i think Australia would have every right to jump up and down, the only reason IMO they even talked about the death penalty with Sharpelle was because her family showed so much disrespect and jumped up and down even being vocal in court, thats like the worse thing you could ever do in Indo, respect in Indonesia is worth so much.
Theres three things you need in Indo in any situation good or bad.
1. Patience
2. Respect
3 Good sense of humour
You can do just about anything if you have all those, otherwise the only alternative is to have a shit load of cash, which might get you what you want for a while, but ultimately will most likely gets screwed over.
PS. Speaking about Sharpelle , i saw some pics she was tagged in on FB (she had a fake name profile) but looks like she was enjoying herself with a group of others on a private yacht partying and surfing around West Sumbawa.
@ Silicun, you can say that about anything whats the point of booking or charging people for speeding or drunk driving or rape or stealing or murder, as there will always be others that will do the same.
Thats not whats its about its about trying to minimise the bad shit and making it a better safer society, for those that choose to live a good life, otherwise chaos will reign supreme.
Its not even about smack addicts, to me its more about the pain there families go through or the babies born dependent on heroin from smack addicts or there kids that suffer (yes some have kids), or all the crime they cause to innocent people, muggings, hold ups, break ins etc
Then there is the crime associated in the countries where the drugs come from that often involves forcing young kids to do there dirty work.
Its not about minimizing the the bad shit and making it a safer society, the question of drug prohibition is one of morality, if it was about minimizing harm them harm minimization strategies would be taken more seriously and the use of drugs like this would be regulated effectively. At present they are not and as a result the risks of use and the need to resort to other crimes to obtain them is higher than it would be with a different approach. The roots of drug prohibition are the same as the roots of alcohol prohibition, relious groups groups lobbying for its religious morality. If governments were so worried about the personal safety of their citizens why have they been shown to be complicit in large scale trafficking? Why haven't they gone to the source and attempted a solution to the problem there? The main sources for heroin production are very well known and have been for years.
Comparing rape and murder to drug trafficking or selling doesn't make sense. With murder and rape there is an obvious offender and and obvious victim, the offender bears 100% responsibility in a situation like rape,perhaps there might be some mitigating circumstances in a murder situation. In a drug crime the "victim" can rarely even be connected to the crime ie who knows if anyone would have died from use of this particular heroin and the also must bear some of the responsibility if they choose to use drugs.
If its about the pain these families go through and the victims of muggings and breaking what do we start criminalizing poverty?
By comparing legal drug use regulation to illegal drug use regulation we can see the hypocracy and inadequacy of the policies. As mentioned above its not the same as comparing drug crime to murder or rape or speeding.
Tobacco sellers producers are not facing the death penalty for selling a drug that is known to cause deaths and the same with alcohol, why? Because the people that consumed those drugs bear responsibility for there use. Prescription drugs cause far more fatalities than illegal drugs, are pharmaceutical company execs facing death penalties?
Illegal drugs need to be regulated so that they can be dispensed appropriately, so that the strength of the dosages are known, so that they are free of impurities, so that the cost doesn't require petty crime and remove the money source for criminal syndicates. This has the possibility of removing all the crime you have mentioned above indo. The current policies have resulted in all the crime you have mentioned and its not getting any better.
IMO theres only three ways to deal with the issue .
1. Look at each drug separately and legalise and tax if you can and then deal with all the other issues that come with that, an option in a developed country like Australia and personally i think this option should be at least looked at for pot in Australia, to test the waters for other drugs, its not an option in a third world country like Indonesia that could never deal with all the issues that come along with it and can't even deal with current health issues people die of preventable disease and even childbirth, plus even if tax was raised corruption would eat most of it up.
2. Take the hardest stance possible and don't make any excuses, if it was up to me i would have the other six shot, IMO there no excuses when its plainly written on signs as you enter the country and the cards that you sign, your guilty as hell if you have the shit strapped to you, this approach in Singapore in the past has shown it works with one of the lowest drug and crime rates in the world, problem with Indo is corruption, although under Indos death penalty laws, they can give death for corruption which i wish they would to someone corrupt with a high profile to set an example.
3. Approach is IMO the worst approach and its the one Australia takes, its neither of the above and its half arsed approach, that basically is pointless, lock people away for a few years in conditions that are better than most losmens in Indo, apart from the threat of getting but raped its not much of a deterrent, these two wouldn't have even considered reforming in an Australian prison, and right about now would be back out there trying to make up for lost time, its no wonder 60% of people in our prison systems are reoffenders.
IMO the only approach in a third world country is no two even number three in Indo would be a disaster.
Personally i find it a lot easier to abide by the laws in Indonesia, there really not that many rules, its not like what Australia which is becoming a big nanny state.
BTW. you can't compare Indonesia's past to its future SBY was a useless president with no balls half the reason why these guys have been waiting ten years, Jokowi is the best thing that has every happened to Indonesia , he's got a hard fight to fight up against some powerful corrupt people, but he is already made so ballsy positive moves, like this one, cutting fuel subsides that those n the know have been saying should happen forever, cracking down hard on other countries illegally fishing in Indonesia waters…id swap Jokowi for Tony Abbot in a heartbeat.
Indo, point 1. I agree with except your assertion that Indonesia could never deal with these issues, they are a capable country with a long history and can certainly deal with issues of the present day, how they deal with them will depend on the quality of their governance.
Point 2. For Singapore's hard line policy there are several examples of countries with similar or lower rates that do not enact the death penalty.
Point 3. Your right, prison isn't abut reforming and there is no point putting drug offenders in there, most traffickers/dealers continue to trade from inside prison, including in Indonesia. Drug users well why would you put someone in goal for personal use????
As for Jokowi, time will tell. I certainly don't agree with using someone's life for political gain but I imagine the real powers that be in Indonesia have more to do with his policy.
Indo. My point is leniency.... Doesn't matter whether it is drugs, what type of drugs, robbery, even murder...
Because of Corby's good behaviour, her rehab in jail, her willingness to cooperate, her mental deterioration, she was given leniency, and her 20 year sentence was dramatically reduced.... She ended up serving only 9 of those 20 years behind bars after smuggling nearly 10 pounds of cannabis.......
Using that as a purely legal example, leniency could also be given to these two guys, reducing the penalty from death to life in prison..... The rest of their lives in jail... That's not a slap on the wrist.... Imagine spending the rest of your life in jail......................................
Zen, earlier in the thread, I did say that these guys knew the risks.... They rolled the dice and lost..... Sure, there's no doubt about that.... And looks like they will pay the ultimate price.... Let it be a warning to all...
But i remain against the death penalty for the reasons I stated above, and I wont be dancing on their graves, because I feel for their sisters, mums, dads, brothers..... They are going through hell due to their relative's stupidity... They don't need me to rub the salt in.....
Same Sheepy, I don't believe in the death penalty either no matter the crime. I do believe in hard time and paying for your crimes. I feel for the families.
But, like has been said ad nauseum, they rolled the dice, lost and this time there's no doubling down. They're fucked and let it serve as an ominous warning to any other kid with stupid, get rich quick thoughts in their heads.
And Indo, trafficking more than 1kg of a group one drug in Indonesia (cannabis being a group one drug , Corby having 4.2 kg - over 4 times the limit, and pleading innocent), she should've been sentenced to death... That's the law, mate..... Yet you think her situation was "sad".....
I just don't get it, Indo......
cannabis - group 1 drug - http://goseasia.about.com/od/indonesia/a/Drug-Laws-In-Bali-And-The-Rest-...
death penalty for group one drugs - Page 67, chapter xv, article 113, part2
http://idpc.net/publications/2009/11/indonesia-narcotics-law-september-2...
And what makes Corby's lack of death penalty hypocritical on an indonesian level is she was importing a group one drug for consumption and distribution on Indonesian streets..... The heroin mules were not... The drugs were bound for Australia...
Maybe our foreign minister could lobby the Indonesian government to revisit the death penalty for Schapelle in the interests of consistency?
Love the sarcasm, zen ;)..... But you get my point, which I appreciate.....
Perhaps its a case of " pretty white girl = leniency and forgiveness", and "brown boy and slanty eye = kill the bastards"......
And yes....... Sarcasm......... (or was it????) ;)
Anyways, The U.N has taken an interest....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/14/tony-abbott-calls-on-indone...
No, pure sarcasm.
There's probably something there though, big blue eyes, nice rack.
I still reckon she's as guilty as hell, along with her brother and in cahoots with her sister. She got off lightly I reckon.
End of the day its for Indonesian courts to decide on what sentences seem fit and I think they have it 100% correct on both Sharpelles sentence and the whole Bali nine sentencing.
And I'm 10000% happy that Jokowi has stood his ground.
Considering the others were 100% guilty with 8Kg of smack strapped to them if anything i think people should see the outcome as a win, six out of nine aint bad, Indonesia could of easily justified giving them all death. (if it was Malaysia that would be a highly likely outcome)
BTW All that said it doesn't mean i can't feel a little sad for them or Sharpelle, I don't hate them or anything silly, i think i may have already said this before i actually thought those two came across on a 60 minutes interview i saw a while ago as very likeable, id actually love to sit down with them and have a beer and get in there heads and ask them what the Fark were they thinking.
But that doesn't change what they knowing did and change what i and Indonesia believes should be there fate, as they decided there own fate.
zenagain wrote:No, pure sarcasm.
There's probably something there though, big blue eyes, nice rack.
I still reckon she's as guilty as hell, along with her brother and in cahoots with her sister. She got off lightly I reckon.
She was guilty alright.... You could tell when the sentence was handed down and she was banging her forehead with her own hand, as in "you fuckn idiot"....
Smuggling a class 1 drug INTO Indo - no death sentence...... Smuggling a class 1 drug THROUGH Indo - death sentence.....
No consistency.....
But I'm happy for Corby... I am only using this example as an objective viewpoint....
The death penalty does not work, the murder rate in texas proves it....and in fact when certain religions are concerned, the death penalty is a badge of honour....
USA states with and without death penalty -
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-and-without-death-penalty
USA homicides ( note top 2 states have death penalty, and 7 out of top ten also have death penalty - therefore, the only logical conclusion is the death penalty does nor work)
http://www.statista.com/statistics/195331/number-of-murders-in-the-us-by...
Even taking population into account;
California population - 38 322 000... murders - 1745............ Has death penalty..
New York state population - 19 651 000... murders- 648....... Does not have death penalty...
You can do the math.... Even if you double the murder number for New york (=1296), it is nowhere near the amount of California....
Some of the contributors on here should be arrested for crimes against logic and rational thinking. Non-sequiturs and tortured analogies flying thick and fast.
The idea that we don't have a right to have a say about this, to lobby indo individually or as a government, for crying out loud, wrong on a thousand levels, akin to suggesting that saying something bad about Pol Pot when he was running Cambodia is some kind of cultural imperialism. Oh dear god, wrong on so many levels in so many ways. So wrong it's hard to know where to start, so wrong it's a complete waste of time trying to argue the point. Governments have been doing this since there were governments and before that tribes were doing it to other tribes. It has always been this way.
As for 'do the crime do the time'. The supreme court of Indo heard their appeals against the death sentence and rejected both. Soon after, a local appealed against his death sentence for manufacturing, distributing and being caught with 11 kgs of ice. Got his sentence marked down to 15 years, and then a judge marked it down further to 12 years, and he will get out after 9.
Drug mules, death penalty, local manufacturer, 9 years.
Do the crime, do the time. I don't think so.
Indonesian nationals in other countries on death sentences, Indo pleads, begs, cajoles, threatens and pays off other countries to get their citizens off, but apparently we aren't allowed to.
Do the crime, do the time, I don't think so.
These guys were big time drug dealers? Not according to the facts. They certainly headed up the drug mules, but these guys were also the mules, and the big guys are free in Thailand where it was produced, and in Australia where it was going to be sold, our big guys are laughing it off as just a cost of doing business, but oh no, these 'big guys' are getting it in the neck. Big guys don't do the mule thing. Surely that doesn't have to be explained any further.
Jokowi a strong leader, you haven't been reading the papers have you. Although only recently elected on a campaign of anti-corruption and helping the poor, after making basically one unpopular decision about petrol subsidies, his popularity has plummeted. If not for Tony Abbott he would be one of the least popular leaders in such quick time just about ever.
Strong leader! It is his weakness that means that he can't stand up for what is a reasonable request from a country that contributed $1billion in aid after the tsunami, and hundreds of millions every year, and whose friendship Indo needs as much as Australia needs Indo.
We aren't asking him to pardon Idi Amin, we're asking Indonesia to accept that their laws are out of step with our society, which they are, and against the very human rights treaties that they signed up to.
The rest is cant and poorly constructed rationalisation.
batfink wrote:Some of the contributors on here should be arrested for crimes against logic and rational thinking. Non-sequiturs and tortured analogies flying thick and fast.
The rest is cant and poorly constructed rationalisation.
Pheewww lucky I wasn't involved.
That's alright Welly. I didn't know we were being graded on this.
Yes Batfink, out of step with our society but not theirs.
batfink wrote:Jokowi a strong leader, you haven't been reading the papers have you. Although only recently elected on a campaign of anti-corruption and helping the poor, after making basically one unpopular decision about petrol subsidies, his popularity has plummeted. If not for Tony Abbott he would be one of the least popular leaders in such quick time just about ever.
Strong leader! It is his weakness that means that he can't stand up for what is a reasonable request from a country that contributed $1billion in aid after the tsunami, and hundreds of millions every year, and whose friendship Indo needs as much as Australia needs Indo.
We aren't asking him to pardon Idi Amin, we're asking Indonesia to accept that their laws are out of step with our society, which they are, and against the very human rights treaties that they signed up to.
The rest is cant and poorly constructed rationalisation.
I do read Indonesian news.
Jokowi support has plummet yes that true because he has had to make the very hard and big decisions that past leaders have been avoiding.
Your just a typical westerner that thinks your views are always right and correct and more advanced view or some BS in other words "Bule sok tau"
Its really simple you play by there rules or don't play at all.
Its really simple you play by there rules or don't go and play at all
Part of the reason Indonesia will never see a cent of mine.... And yeah, I'm a goofy, so it's a big sacrifice lol..... Haven't been there, Don't wanna go there.... Will never go there.... Well, when that murdering piece of shit Bashir gets a life sentence, I might reconsider.....
Sheepdog wrote:Its really simple you play by there rules or don't go and play at all
Part of the reason Indonesia will never see a cent of mine.... And yeah, I'm a goofy, so it's a big sacrifice lol..... Haven't been there, Don't wanna go there.... Will never go there.... Well, when that murdering piece of shit Bashir gets a life sentence, I might reconsider.....
Did you know as much as a prick Abu bakar bashir is despite public perception, apparently he was not behind the Bali bombings and apparently didn't even approve of them not because he was against them but strategy wise…apparently the big man behind it was another guy Hambali who is in Guantanamo Bay.http://theconversation.com/abu-bakar-bashirs-sentence-why-only-15-years-...
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/bali-bombing-maste...
Jeez Sheepy, not spending money in Indo is just hurting the little people that would be looking after you.
Blaming them for some politicians politicking is like you copping the blame for children in detention centres in Australia .
Ok Blowin, I'll go.
But I'm not leaving a tip;)
IMO its crazy that people wouldn't go to Indo because some hard drug smuggling leaders got caught and got exactly what all the signs at the airport tell you will happen.
There hard drug smugglers that thought they could make some big quick bucks?
We should be paying the expenses to Indonesia for there help getting rid of them not punishing Indonesia.
If there guilty was questionable okay I can understand but theres no doubt of guilt at al caught red handed and admit guilt.
Another way of putting it is that people are dismayed that two young men are being killed as a result of political maneuvering in regard to a charge for their part in an attempt to import a commonly available narcotic by a group whose leaders were never arrested.
I brought two cartons of 'hard' drugs last time I came back from Indo, declared them as well no problem. Calling a certain group of drugs 'hard' is a poor attempt at hysteria and prohibition propaganda it does nothing to help define or educate people about drugs.
In the last two hours I've had enough Tequila to float a battleship and been offered Marijuana, ice , mushrooms , Valium and cialis.
Indonesians hate drugs.
their laws are out of step with our society
You are dead right there batfink, out of step with OUR society. Kind of an important point.
All laws are a social construct, and indo has constructed laws for their society. When I see single mums with lots of kids, and britney spears flashing her flange for the paparrazi I question some of our laws and social norms and wonder if we have got it right for us, nevermind developing countries, how the fuck can we tell them whats right for them? Sombong!!
This is aimed at no one in particular, but aussies complain so much when people propose sharia law for oz so why should we propose Aussie law for indos?
re corby, who knows really, but i think with all her families experience and connections in indo, if she was really guilty, she would have played the local game ie paid money, and not claimed her innocence so vehemently.
re the local guy getting reduced sentence, well if you are really.upset about that, you.don't understand Indonesia very well, and plenty.of injustice happens in oz too. Google the adelaide lawyer who killed a cyclist while drunk driving and basically got away with it. Also I know a former undercover cop who gave up the force because he would follow drug cases as much as he could then reach a certain level of authority and all his support would shut down and the big guys would walk away. You guys need to stop judging a developing country from a developed country perspective, if we can't get the big guys how do you expect Indonesia to do it with all their corruption and wacky cultural practices?
I actually agree with sillicun about people being responsible for what they put in their bodies, and i like his example of blaming the beer company. This culture of blaming everyone but yourself is what has lead to oz becoming a nanny state. Individuals need to take some resposibility.
And yeh jokowi is strong and popular, any leader who has the balls to touch fuel subsidies in indo gets caned.
The indos riot over fuel subsidies, that should give some of you an idea of how different priorities are in the two very different countries.
The hypocrisy of Indonesia - http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/02/10/ri-vows-free-nationals-dea...
Indonesia's blood money - http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/03/world/meast/saudi-arabia-indonesia-maid/
I wrote two reply yesterday and both times lost them…yeah anyway.
I personally dont agree with Indonesia's stand on this but its no surprise Indonesia is all about contradictions i could write a book on the contradictions I've come across.
Personally I don't see it the way most seem to see it and don't think its necessarily hypocrisy, but i admit i am a little one eyed when it comes to Indo.
The best way i can put it is, if Australia helped its own overseas stuck in prisons for would that be hypercritical? even though we lock up people, I don't think so, would it be hypercritical if they helped for crimes that you would also receive a sentence for in Australia?…thats where the line to me gets fuzzy.
Indonesian never says it doesn't believe in the death penalty or it should be abolished its just helping its own, i don't think thats hypercritical unless there in there for crimes that death would also be given for in Indonesia.
It sucks that the media hasn't given more details, I've tried to find out what the cases involve are but all i can find is the drug related ones seem to be Indonesians taking small amounts of pot into Malaysia, a crime you wouldn't get death for in Indonesia unless its a huge amount for instance there is an Indonesian who will get death along with these two and he is getting death for just pot but the amount was over 58Kg so not exactly a stick.(and goes to show you Indonesians do get death for drugs)
Most of the other cases involve seem to be maids or so called maids.
Now just a quick background on this area, which is a big problem in Indonesia and Indonesia authorities are trying to curb ways to stop it fro happening so much.
Basically many girls especially from poor village areas with little education get lured into going overseas to make what to them is big money, although some get jobs as true maids and treated well for the others you can use the word maid loosely because many become virtual slaves trapped, abused physically, mentally and sexually, some are basically sold the maid thing but it is actually prostitution or people trafficking and once they are there they are trapped into it.
There crime is normally murder either said to be in self defence or murder to escape the life that they are trapped in and many die in.
Im not agreeing that murder is right, but there is a much more to this than the most media would let you know, and even if the maids did kill in self defence, they don't have the money to fight there way out of it and are normally up against people with power and money.
Yeah so its all how you look at it.
BTW. i see Indonesia has fighter jets in Bali now to escort these two and ensure no problems, seems a little over the top, but i guess its getting fairly big this story.
PS. One time on the way back from Singapore to Indo, my wife befriended a maid who had been working for a rich chinese, and even the stories she told were an eye opener, once she got there she was treated pretty bad, and all the things she was promised, like holidays home etc not given, she became pretty much trapped in the house and if she did go out had to strip down to ensure she hasn't stolen anything, nothing like the horror stories of others but still any eye opener, anyway she wasn't going back, but said she had saved up enough in two years to help her family start a business as her family was very poor village family.
PSS. Oh i forgot you have to remember Indonesians are also good at negotiating, its something they are taught in everyday life from an early age, its part of there culture, i wouldn't be surprised if they are successful in getting freedom for there own, us Aussies though we just go in like a bull horns down and then expect to get a good result, and then when we don't get our own way we act like a spoilt kid which actually goes against future negotiations….Just have a look at Tonys effort.
There's been lots of "comparisons" lately , Indo.... Comparing "this to that".... "Or that to this"....
Firstly, all countries give consular support to their people overseas.... But you can't compare that to state sanctioned murder. Apples and oranges, mate...... Life as compared to death....
You write "Indonesian never says it doesn't believe in the death penalty or it should be abolished its just helping its own, i don't think thats hypercritical unless there in there for crimes that death would also be given for in Indonesia"...... Using that logic, Australia has every right to try to save these 2 due to "crimes that life sentence would also be given in Indonesia"...
Now lets look at the factsof the murder is Saudi Arabia.
Satinah Binti Jumadi Ahmad, a 40-year old.... Murders a 70 yo woman.... Admits to murder.... Given death sentence..... I'd take it if a 40yo murdered a 70yo in Indonesia, they too would get the death sentence...
Cheers, Indo....
Every country has the right to try save there own, but at the end of the day its the country where the crime is committed and sentence given that make the final call, how you react after you get the answer especially if its a NO is important, you can expect areas of the public to do silly things, boycotts etc but when your leaders start acting like little kids that haven't got there own way like Tony making threats and giving guilt trips that when you have crossed the line, same goes for Julie Bishop her comments were irresponsible and bordered on encouraging boycotts of Bali.
It does my head in that we can people as leaders that are so irresponsible, they haven't done anyone any favours, not the two guys, and probably put Indo-Aussie relations back to its worst, a very silly move when Indonesia can have an influence on issues that they care so much about like the refugee issue.
IMO the media is also irresponsible on how they handle these matters and basically are sheep herders, guiding people where they want..but thats nothing new and something you would expect.
Umm, Indo, I'm pretty sure I have made my opinion on Abbott loud and clear in the Abbott thread.... Worse PM ever....
But I totally and respectfully disagree with "but at the end of the day its the country where the crime is committed and sentence given that make the final call".... I mean, if we are going to compare "this with that", then you or i have no right protesting when in Afghanistan, a girl is sexually mutilated because female genital mutilation is accepted.... And In South Africa years ago, the world had no right protesting the racial laws.... If we took your angle, Legal apartheid would still be around today... It is only because of external pressure from other countries that mandela was freed, and "blacks" were allowed the same rights as "whites". Using your example, some of the most outrageous laws could be passed in far flung corners of the world, and no one would have a right to question it... That's how we end up with hitlers.....
And another "this with that", re' Indonesian hypocrisy in saving their own overseas for serious crimes, but murdering those on their soil for similar offences........... - My boy is caught throwing rocks off an overpass up in Qld, causing death...... I call the qld state judicial system asking for leniency..... A year later, someone elses boy is caught doing the same thing down here in tasmania... I call on the Tasmanian state government for the maximum sentence, to set an example....... That's exactly how the Indonesian government is acting.....
I think we just have to agree to disagree i don't see it like that at all.
The only people i believe should be able to make change in any country is the people and governments of that nation, who's to say what is right or wrong or what morals you should have?
The only exception is when the country gives permission for foreigners to help make change like NGO,s etc
Otherwise thats just typical western attitude, like the missionaries that thought their way was the right way and went and tried to convert and change others beliefs, the extreme of that attitude is colonialism.
You got the wrong end of the stick sheep dip, you can protest against any countries laws, but if someone goes there and knowingly breaks that law, they pay the price.
If I come to your home and you ask me to take my shoes off I will or I won't come in.
I met some Indonesians on the weekend (from Jakarta), they asked if I was angry with them because those Australians are going to get the death penalty.
I told them while it is my preference that people arent executed, i'm also pretty upset that australians keep coming to your country, breaking all your rules and then expecting to get away with it. Its disrespectful.
My preference is always no death penalty but drug dealing is a real crime with serious outcomes. Westerners who transport/traffic drugs in countries like indonesia should not expect any special treatment.
I also said that I don't think any australians who have been to indonesia before will stop because of this. Maybe a few people who haven't been and were tossing up between thailand/bali/fiji but everyone who knows it won't be deterred.
Finally I said, I wish our respective medias, and particularly the australian media (and pollies) would stop driving on that wedge between us.
shaun wrote:You got the wrong end of the stick sheep dip, you can protest against any countries laws, but if someone goes there and knowingly breaks that law, they pay the price.
If I come to your home and you ask me to take my shoes off I will or I won't come in.
Great to see a simple comment from a simple man.
Well yeah, simplifying it for you and your jellyfish logic. How are you gong colonizing Tassie on your first trip overseas?
...how is it that Australians get so excited about these 2 guys and yet nothing has been said for U.S and its capital punishment. we allow our government to accept what the U.S does but at the same time expect it to save Indonesia from themselves.
...it seems that we get a bit overly patriotic when its one of our own...Australia's reaction (and Mr Abbotts) over these low lives is quite frankly just embarrassing. im astounded to say the least.
morris wrote:Well yeah, simplifying it for you and your jellyfish logic. How are you gong colonizing Tassie on your first trip overseas?
Going good, Morris minor.... Speaking of jellyfish logic, comparing taking off shoes to state sanctioned murder is a beauty... The kindergarten has called..... time for your nap, mate....
Ps- It's noble defending your wife like that, minor....
Yeah we know the sympathy you show for drug dealers, in a thread awhile ago you were sympathetic towards a young bloke in your town that got busted for "only selling a bit of speed up the pub ".
It wrecks families.
Could be executed by firing in around 7 days.