Submitted by dimitrios10 on Tue, 05/29/2018 - 17:10
I am curious if you guys like DonaldTrump, or do you hate him?
My last post on this issue.
From today's SMH online:
"PM's pick for Governor-General is just too safe, too similar, too male, too white"
Articles like this are really common, especially on The Guardian and the ABC.
Are articles like this
a) merely cynical content for the punters, a case of the media feeding the hungry beast?
b) a genuine, if mistaken attempt at covering an "issue" that no-one really gives a shit about?
c) a real representation of a broader public state of mind?
Its good for some to all jobs. To learn simple appreciation. The simple question is, do you think that the people that are absolutely necessary for the surgeon to perform his job, deserve the same quality of life? Anyone that says no, should be forced to work as a quote, 'cube monkey', cleaner, process worker, laborer, delivery driver, tire changer, and as andym unconsciously moaned, even a lowly, miserable 'cab driver'. Any role they despise deep down. And while on the same rates, hours and shit, often short term contract conditions for the remainder of their days.
Having worked as a successful project manager, many times, these people are absolutely essential, and like in any role, many take the utmost pride in their particular makeup, performance, service and exceptional skills. Guns in all fields make managing a pleasure, They deserve just as good a life, and as much recognition as anyone involved in any project.
As far as christian bashing, don't profess and preach to love, worship and model your life on a person who's values and example you assert are, truth above all else, equality above all else, fearlessness above all else, to treat your fellow man as you would treat yourself, especially above any material possession. Whilst you then ignore, downplay, hide, enable and deny the most heinous treatment of defenseless, vulnerable children by christian leaders and institutions. Then quibble over the dollars and cents necessary to try and reconcile the network of those heinous crimes committed by christian leaders and their institutions. While granting them exceptional privileges, bowing to them and crawling around on your hands and knees chanting shit.
Pretty much blindboy. I'm just trying to point out where you're losing people along the way. And it's with your own highly convoluted language and accompanying sensibilities.
Which is pretty much a result of the ever widening class divide as I see it. Or the city/country divide blowin pointed out weeks ago.
You know what amazes me, when I get down and dirty with the bogans in the hood. They cannot stand the narrative that comes out of the mouth of the likes of sarah hanson young and co. with her over the top identity politics, and bleeding heart bullshit refugee talk. And that's bullshit in terms of lies, not style.
But you ask them about same sex marriage, or climate change and renewable energy, and they are all in.
Passionately all in!
All in, every single time!
It astounds me, the unwavering support across both issues. With the exception of one V8 driving super bogan that is.
Most of them are actually in support of 'real refugees' as well, they just know the system is overrun with economic migrants. They are also passionate about aboriginal issues, but you would probably never find that out the way contemporary political polling is conducted.
These are the people you are isolating with the over the top identity politics talk.
Labor could romp it in across the board if they just concentrated on a few key issues, rather than waffling on trying to be all things to all men.
High immigration is clearly an issue too, but if the political correctness was backed off, and a real conversation about migration permitted to happen, most would support immigration rather than not (at reduced numbers). But they're just sick to death of being lied to, about all of these issues. Technically they should be voting greens, labor at a minimum (well the greens of old anyway) but they're voting hanson and the shooters and fishers party because career politicians are clearly too distant from their world.
The trust is gone.
The libs have got absolutely nothing to offer anybody. But the other side is just tying themselves in knots trying to appease a plethora of loud mouth minority activist types.
I never mentioned identity politics and have no interest in it. I argued for sensible practical harm reduction policies while you were dog whistling up the homophobes. So your homies are down with climate change and same sex marriage but don't like unnecessarily complex language or certain accents. Well good for them but you would have to be a total fucking idiot to let it influence the way you vote.
Sigh!.....Just when I thought we were getting somewhere....
I've said it before, but this really isn't personal blindboy. You're not doing much to challenge the notion that liberals are hypersensitive...about everything....
Anyway, as I said, this is purely a class/regional thing. You speak good and stuff, and my mates are rough and stuff. That's all. Nothing to do with accents or flowery language, well actually a bit to do with 'unnecessarily complex language'. But it's not even about vocabulary, I've also said before, doctors and dole bludgers best describes the people I hang out with, so there's some smart cookies in there.
It's about who you 'identify' with. Yep, irony alert there! They just don't identify with how the likes of SHY talk. Partly because she bullshits, partly because her language is so pure and proper (and contrived) she comes across as non genuine. It's just horses for courses, and you and SHY are hobnobbing around Flemingston, whilst my mates are at the balaclava cup. Again, nothing personal.
You're right, you have never mentioned identity politics. Because some of you guys like to think it's not even a thing. When in reality, at least 50% of your posts are identity politics. Like it or not. You live and breathe the stuff. We all do to a certain extent. It's just how people talk now, that was kind of the goal.
And it has filtered through to every layer of society, every interaction, every HR department, every government department. It may well not be as bad as I play it up to be, but I can guarantee you, its way more prevalent in our daily lives than you guys play it down to be...
So if I mention any minority in any context it is automatically "identity politics". Sounds like a convenient way of trying to discredit arguments you don't like or shut down debate altogether ........ which is presumably why the term was invented in the first place. Indigenous policy, violence against women, LGBT issues ....... Forget 'em. Just listen to Slomo and co. Can't have these people thinking their views are as important as ours!
Easy way to marginalise the already marginalised, eh BB?
Nah, I'm just saying when you write " dead white male" that's divisive identity politics of the highest order.
And when you talk about the supposed 'gender pay gap' that is a contrived manipulated statistic, that basically applies to no one on an award wage. Totally relevant to salary positions, and the karl versus lisa saga. But for folks on a normal wage, it's rather offensive.
Personally I wouldn't want to diminish the importance of the other issues you mention, but just don't be too trigger happy with rather cliche retorts to anyone who genuinely wants to challenge the academic wanker narrative.
We really are in the same page...of sorts..with most things. We just see different issues as having higher priority.
You keep up the good fight mate, just be more aware of the language you use, and others use, to make their point.
Keep it a bit firey and passionate, I love that shit. But don't be so prejudiced of others intentions just because they come from a different angle to yourself.
A different perspective on the gender pay gap. And how advocates do themselves no favours with their exaggerations.
They're supposed to be academics, adhering to academic rigour for fucks sake
"Easy way to marginalise the already marginalised, eh BB?
Who? The working class of all colours and genders?
Don't be obtuse. Minorities who are persecuted.
I understand in your world racism doesn't exist, nor homophobia, but that's not a lived reality.
that's bullshit stunet. I am well aware racism exists. I've called it out on here from time to time. But many agree with me that being too trigger happy has become counter productive.
I recently attended a presentation from a most astute aboriginal man who basically said what I just said.
For the record he was very anti political correctness right from the start. And went on to say how he thinks it's unfair that bogans get such a bad rap. Then said, blackfellas are basically "brown bogans" sharing the culture and language of the white trash of Australia, for want of a better term. And that, while political correctness may have made day to day life easier for blackfellas, it has done nothing to address their position at the bottom rung of society. Hence them being "...brown bogans".
So when you point it out it's racism, but if anyone else does they're playing identity politics.
"Political correctness " in my experience is usually a reference to basic good manners from those who prefer to be rude.
Another interesting interview which discusses, amongst other things, spending time with people who have vastly different views to our own in areas that challenge our core moral values ;)
It also gets into what it claims is the increasing lack of rational discussion at universities due to the Left "shouting down" opinions which supposedly don't toe the line.
Should be right up your alley Syppo.
The interviewee is a moral psychologist and professor of ethical leadership.
Mentions that too BB.
I'll give it a listen. Just hope it's better than the last one :)
Geez we're splitting hairs now stunet. Would you rather I didn't call it out because I'm not in the identity politics camp?
I've pretty much said all along there's a time and a place.
"..."Political correctness " in my experience is usually a reference to basic good manners from those who prefer to be rude."
Well that's a pretty tired old line from 'the guardian' commenters. The problem is - as I've tried to show - the whole concept of racism and political correctness is very subjective. Very very subjective, according to the context, setting, and environment. I know how to play the game when I'm on the northern beaches of sydney. And I know the game is very different when in the desert or suburban ghettos. Context folks!
I know I'm kind of lucky because I've lived in some of the most opulent places in oz, with corresponding sensibilities. And then frequented some of the most bushest of bush places, and povvo of povvo communities, where whitefellas and blackfellas often share a joke about some of the ridiculousness of political correctness. It's a very fine balance in these situations, and I know boundaries are often pushed, with blackfellas often bighting their tongues, but sometimes it's also a great bonding experience.
You guys need to get out of your Sydney bubble more is all I can say...
I thought you were done andym? Good to have you back. It's lonely on here. I'll get to the link later. I'm supposedly working.
For the record, overt racism really pisses me off, and it was me bighting my tongue just last week.
"Geez we're splitting hairs now stunet. Would you rather I didn't call it out because I'm not in the identity politics camp?"
We're not actually splitting hairs at all. What I'm addressing is the rising MO of people in the NewsCorp/2GB/Menzies Centre melange to categorise racism as IP, and as IP gets a stronger foothold so too does that tactic gain traction, hence my quip about marginalising the marginalised.
IP is the new weapon of choice.
Not saying IP doesn't exist, I've said as much to the contrary, but go and read the Australian and see how much it's being used as a proxy for what I believe are genuine racist acts.
"So if I mention any minority in any context it is automatically "identity politics"."
"Sounds like a convenient way of trying to discredit arguments you don't like or shut down debate altogether ........ which is presumably why the term was invented in the first place."
No. It is people attempting to express a valid counter-argument, whether they are successful or not. So it should not be dismissed as you have done here.
"Indigenous policy, violence against women, LGBT issues ....... Forget 'em. Just listen to Slomo and co. Can't have these people thinking their views are as important as ours!"
This is not the counter-argument to identity politics. You could read into the fundamental concerns further if you are interested in learning why people would be so resistant to something that you see as compassionate and virtuous.
Go deeper Taylor, go deeper!
Andy, the argument is very weakly put. Lots of generalisations about what happens on universities and one really quite pathetic anecdote from a workplace. If he really believes that the behaviour he is discussing is a major contributor to political division in the US he would need a lot more evidence and, since he has just written a book, should have been able to quote it. To me the issue is at best a small problem far out weighed by rising inequality, low wages and major media players who are committed to supporting the corporate banditry that has thrived for several decades now.
sypkan, when people talk about the northern beaches as if it was composed of a uniformly priveleged upper middle class, it just demonstrates they know nothing about the place. The surfers I grew up with came out of their 1940s fibro bungalows to walk across the old tip to surf the most polluted beach in Australia. Their fathers were labourers, clerks or tradies in the days before being self-employed was an option. Most of them are still around and yeh, some of them have done well but I don't know anyone who has forgotten where we came from.
BlindB - Then you'd know why Warringah are called the rats .. and nobody should believe what Wikipedia tells you
Rat Park, by name and nature. That was a tip too! Did you ever hear the story that just after they created the playing fields at North Curl Curl, the ground collapsed under one of the players and he fell into an old car body buried just below the surface. The roof had rusted through!
I'm driving back from dumping a load at the Warriewood tip and stopped behind the wire to watch a bit of the game, dust and shit everywhere, the stink of old household rubbish and up walks a rats official with his hand out ... wants me to buy a ticket to watch the game or generally just fuck off. After that I forget what happened.
I've got to be honest stunet I never ever look to those sources unless someone references them here. So yes, I may welll be totally ignorant to the little battles going on. Conversly, all my information comes from 'left' sources, so there's a lot of hostility from both sides against the concept. But yes, I have caught the odd comment here and there from the right cashing in on the concept. Not least, that 'outsiders' show on sky news, where they gratuitously bag the concept. Interestingly I've seen chas from planet America on that show of late, which is a really interesting development from my perspective.
Blindboy, I know parts of the northern beaches have a proud working class heritage. But take it from me, someone who lived at manly vale in the late nineties, that place is way more opulent than some of the shitholes I have lived in. Interestingly a chick I had relations with from the northern northern beaches thought the southern northern beaches was the skuzzyest of skuzzyvllles and indulged in all sorts of snobbyness. A most enlightening insight into class culture for the son of a coal miner from the son of a coal miner.
It's all relative....
This topic has become more predictable than the daily stuff ups from COALmo and his government. Reckon Austin Powers isn't going to have a happy Christmas up in the Mallee, pity is wife and kids.
A bit like yourself guysmiley.
Sorry couldn't resist.
Couldn't you have squeezed 'reactionary' in there somewhere?
No interest in the class struggle?
....I thought so....
BB I think it’s argued quite clearly that the very people who claim to be progressive are narrowing their tolerance and their social circles by concentrating on personal identity.
Amongst other political problems that we’ve already discussed, this also leads to an unwelcoming climate being developed In universities.
From personal experience, I can tell you that arguing a point rationally at university is often not welcome because “people are entitled to their opinion.”
I am of the belief that you are only entitled to what you can argue for.
It seems that you’re providing an excellent example of someone who just doesn’t want to consider the testimony of experts because it clashes with your ideology.
You’re no different in that regard to the Right.
The testimony of experts is of no greater value than that of anyone else unless they back it up with evidence, which he conspicuously failed to do. An appeal to authority, as you have done here, generally weakens rather than strengthens an argument.
excuse me madam, you're alphabet soup is done...
"...in movement politics, the forces are all centrifugal, encouraging splits into smaller and smaller factions obsessed with single issues and practicing rituals of ideological one-upmanship.”
"...Political analysts and researchers find that resentment of political correctness and identitarian excess drove a lot of voters, including a lot of nonbigoted voters, toward Trump’s toxic version of national identity."
Wondering what the parameters are in this class war? Anyone want to guess...? Andy? Sypkan?
I remember when the Occupy Wall Street protests were going on, a class-based issue, and good old Kanye West came down to shout at the bankers alongside his brothers in arms. Drove a Humvee to the protest if I recall.
The 'working class' doesn't exist anymore, not in anything other than abstract form. There are poor people, of course, but are they to be grouped with your average middle class family that earns $100K combined, gear themselves to the hilt on real estate, drive foreign cars, and complain they've got it tough? They're shouting at the bankers too, sold up the river by oligarchs, feeling they've been locked out of the globalisation windfall, etc etc.
So who's in what class?
Working class vs asset class.
People can sometimes be confused as to which class they belong due to personal history or relative wealth.
If your money is working , you’re no longer working class.
Net debt is working class.
So in the class war is it working class vs asset class?
Or both of them vs the 1%?
And do we have to show our tax returns..?
Being slightly facetious, but also not, cos if we want to argue from the standpoint of class not identity - as we're being told we should - then we've got to know our allies and enemies, and we're not helped by growing inequality which makes class distinction a messy business. It ain't as clear cut as it was in the 60s.
Working class certainly does exist, you can see them wearing the yellow vests, it's incredibly obvious. They are the ones in the West who have been shafted by globalism and immigration, and they are p1ssed.
It's very convenient to say they don't exist just as they properly start to rise up for the first time in donkeys ages. It's as obvious as hi-viz on a worksite.
I may get back to you in detail sypkan, but me thinks that so far as class exists here people can rise to the top of wealth through hard work or luck or both but don't try that in the UK and the US or most places in EU, you'll have no hope and hence we have Brexit and Trump the man-child and high-viz.
I think you're generally right there guysmiley. But, the question is for how long?
And, do you include aboriginal people in that generalisation?
(Just so some of you don't blow a valve, cultural capital needs to be factored into such broad generalisations)
I'm with Stu. It has all got very complex. Traditional markers like blue collar/white collar, education and accent have blurred. Australia's run of economic growth has increased the wealth of many doing traditional working class jobs so far that they no longer share working class values. At the same time the property market and compulsory super has left many who were working class through-out their working lives affluent in their retirement. I'm not sure that class, as a fixed social identity, is a useful way to think anymore. It's a smorgasbord of shifting alliances where interests coincide.
I think stunet is right too re. how complicated class has become. Well has a point at least, because velocityjohnno is clearly correct re. France. But considering people on a combined $100k income, who are mortgaged to the hilt.. if we buy into the 'free agents' thinking of both philosophy and neoliberalism, they did sign up to it themselves, so they did it to themselves in a way, ...so bad luck...
But then again, many didn't buy into this neoliberal globalisation project, imposed from above, that may have increased their house price assett value, but has also increased competition for jobs, and just about eveyfuckingthing else, whilst strongly reducing all other forms of wealth.
So I'm seeing some common ground
It seems rampant competition was good. For some, for a while. But just for a little while....
Yahoooooo!!! And that’s just one of the better jobs, one of the hidden stuck cunt hordes, so’s the punters can suck a coldy and fill their bellies while they moan about the surf reportin’ webbie thingo, in the airport, and what it means ta be a stuck cunt??!! And it’s a real goer, a career... in Sydney... and Melbourne!!!?
‘Roof over me scone... ssshhiitteee... ‘ow much... betta send the missus out too... so’s we can get a mortgage, coz it’s our fault we greedy stuck cunts have ta live!!!??? Ta be stuck cunts in Sydney and Melbourne!!!! And ya gotta apply on line!!!!!???’
‘I’ve just got ‘ome from a grave yard shift luv, you headin out, wot time you finishing... wots up... ok... I’ll take em down ta the dentist, need a checkup meself anyway... sshheeiitttteeee!!???? Fffaaarrkk!!?? Did ya ring the electrician... double ssshhheeeiiiitteee!!!!!??? Shhheeeiiiteee the dell’s died agin... an the farkin car...’
‘Who needs stuck cunts anyway!!!?? Get rid of the gazzillions of the fuckerz???!!! They’re doin it lucky anyway!!!!’
'FFFFFFAAAAAARRRKKKKK... hey officer yeh, yeh I know, but the kids have been up all night cryin'... gotta get ta the dentist... and the farrrkin' electrician... it's next on the list maaayyyte... shhhiiiite maaayytee... give us a break, the mechanic reckons... shhhhheeeeiiiiiiittteeee!!!! Maaayyteee its xmas!!!!!! FFS!!!!!???'
'Oye luv, they pulled me over... got put off the road... fffaaarkkkk...!!!!???'
'Ow much... 'ow many years... 'ow many miles... ya sure... warranty????!!! Yeh, yeh whatever... just chuck it in mmmaaayytttee... where do I sign... aye...wot... the missus too... ok, ok, just do it... they put the farkin' commy off the road... seatbelts, computer thingo and shhhiitee... still payin it off... yeh, yeh, chuck that on too, if I miss me shift the... the boss is a cunt... he won't ring me... and the kidz... jeez thanks maaaayttteee'
'Yeh, yeh, I know luv, alright already... but faaarrrk... we can work over xmas... I'll do double shifts... did ya get that loan fa' the faaarkin dentist...I gotta go luv, the fffaaarkin boss is all over me... faaarrkin' gotta ramp up productivity... ow'z your back holdin' out... mines fuckin' killin' me... see ya... I know, I know maaayyyteee... mum'll get ya tooth fixed aye...'
'New wheels cunt... who's a lucky boy aye, but ya fuckin' late... I told ya... get 'ere 15 mins early... one more time cunt... You're on liftin' tonight too... ya fuckin' back better not fuck up or else cunt... I'm watchin' you cunt... righto... get ta work and make us sum moola, ya lazy, lucky, good for nuthin', stuck cunts!!!!!'
Again... and again... and again... and... in a nutshell...
'Crack unnuver coldy boyz, surfs up... where's that fuckin' camera bracket... ow am I spozed ta surf.... cunts...'
'Merry Xmas, ya lucky stuck cunts... who needs ya butt!!!!!'
Now that Swedemason geezer is a true stable genius!
(Bugger about the Trump Foundation, hey? Who'd a thunk it?)
And such is the crisis of Identity politics. How do you determine who is more disadvantaged? It is impossibly complex. There's only so much guilt that people will be inclined to bear, only so much money to be shared around, and only so much patience for the inequality of outcome now that the divide between rich and poor has stretched significantly in the last decade.
So the counter position to identity politics is focus toward equal freedoms and rights to the individual as the first and foremost necessity before all other disadvantages are taken into consideration.
......... and the word "treason" is mentioned in Flynn's case!
He has announced US troop withdrawal from Syria this week, and just announced 7000 of the 14000 or so US troops to be withdrawn from Afghanistan, winding down the rest. End of longest war in US history in sight? End of poppy fields there? That would be something everyone from all sides might agree is a good thing. Also, House just approved 5.7Bn for the wall - while at the same time a gofundme has raised 10 million in 3 days from private citizens to do the same thing - all of these are promises he made in the 2016 campaign trail. It's hard to see the direction it's all going, you have to wait to see what actions occur. In the background the Fed keeps raising rates and is pulling the plug on the boom of funny munny that has been ongoing for the last 10 years since 'QE' began. 2019 already shaping up as a very volatile year.
About Trump's wall.
Quote from Donald himself today;
"We don't use the word 'wall' necessarily, but it has to be something special to do the job," Trump said at a farm bill signing at the z
White House. The bill would keep funding at current levels for border security, including pedestrian fencing and replacement fences, but not the wall. It requires previously used designs.
The funny thing about walls is that you can still fly over them, climb over them, sail around them, and most certainly tunnel under them.
Wall like war, what is it good for?
Say it again!
VJ , volatile is the word .
Leaving Syria , Putin thanked Trump publicly , only 2000 troops were left , looks like the Kurds have been left alone again , and even a Intelligence report from 3 USA spy agency's , says ISIS is not defeated...Mattis quits/retires as he can't work with some one who has such a differing view and announces the policy change by tweet....the Generals and Secretary of Defense found out by tweet , WTF!
Stock market has had the worst year since 2007 , Dec being the worst mt since 1929...hmmmm
386,000 govt workers will be affected by the shut down , now we have the steel slats/wall syndrome , and the collusion with Moscow...well Trump did sign a memo of understanding to build a Trump tower in Moscow , and give a $50 m appartment to Putin, just sayin , things lo0k pretty dodgy in Donald land..
As the adults leave the room and Trump's dictatorial tendencies become clearer, the risks on numerous fronts rise. Beware any further attempts by Trump to undermine Jerome Powell, head of the Federal Reserve. If he should succeed in getting rid of him Inwould seriously suggest withdrawing any available funds in large denomination notes and stashing it in the safest place possible, under your bed could well turn out to safer than any available financial institution.