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mygov is a cunt of a system
barber you sound like a saffa
"CUNT of a system"?!
Anyway, reading back through the comments involving indigenous Australians, I was mightily impressed. Hunt, Blindboy, Floyd et al.
Stunet's comment in partial response to Indo's querying was very interesting. It highlights, in its epiphany of sorts, the difficulty in enacting the stratagem (to borrow from To Kill a Mockingbird): "you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it" (or 'her' point of view and skin).
Here's a famous essay I've posted before somewhere. It is a MUST-READ. I hope you do.
Here's another helpful read. Do it, do it, do it!
And remember it's not just about race!
SD, don't know the technical details of the census system, suffice to say that it's up to the stress testing company (which in this case was not IBM) to test it. Again, why IBM got the contract for the census system, need to ask the fat cats. Government go on their recommendations. So yeah, it does seem right for Turnbull to ask the question. Sure you can go off the grid. But somehow, I would prefer to know why someone wants my details. My point with Google is, you just don't know when, why and Google is not accountable as the ABS is.
On the indigenous issue, I wonder how many here have actually lived and played with blacks. Gone to school with blacks. Surfed with blacks.
Do yourself a favour and read those links above, TB.
Actually Shatner, most of the points people have tried to make are huge generalisations and stereotypes .
Racial discrimination is not something that just indigenous people face, and skin colour or race, doesn't make you a good or bad parent.
Add to the issue these days is the fact that Aboriginal people are not just the stereotypical very dark skinned person, to be Aboriginal you only have to have some DNA somewhere down the family tree and identify as Aboriginal.
Im not sure how people could discriminate against these people based on race because unless they told you in many cases you would never know they are Aboriginal (especially in such a multicultural society) and all those i know which is quite a few, some very good friends are not disadvantaged at all most come from typical middle class families and now have decent to good jobs etc
These people although Aboriginal are in no way disadvantaged although they and their children can have access to extra services or things like grants for further study grants etc.
While on the flip side obviously there is other Australians of all colours and races who are disadvantaged in all kinds of ways who do not get extra support because of their race.
To me i don't think you can have it both ways, obviously in this day and age its wrong to discriminate based on race or generalise based on race, but then our government and many people say okay we are making an exception here, we are going to treat this race differently and put them all in the same box.
IMO in the long run its not a good thing and in a sense keeps a division between Aboriginal people and other Australians.
I guess it all comes down to politics though because of Australia's dirty past and dare i say i can't help but feel, it's a way of trying to make up the wrongs of the past.
Anyway I thought this was a good read http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-27/pholiaboriginality/4281772
Talk about a stunning own goal, Sypo....
Do yourself a favour and read those links I posted above, ID.
Ive read them (and not for the first time) and they are true for a person of light coloured skin living in Australia or any country where the majority of the population are of a lighter skin shade, white privilege is real. (But i should note in some countries being light coloured can be a disadvantage and even put your life in danger)
However as I've said numerous times not all Aboriginal people are dark skinned and not all non Aboriginal people are light skinned.
If it was only about being black or white(god i hate those words), then many who identify as Aboriginal that have a lighter skin colour would miss out and other dark skinned people of other races, etc Melanesian, African etc would benefit.
If people and communities were treated and assessed for grants etc on a needs basis instead of race it would be a win win for all in need.
"If people and communities were treated and assessed for grants etc on a needs basis instead of race it would be a win win for all in need."
I was at uni with this guy, he was for all intents and purposes white, looked white, didn't identify as indigenous, comfortable middle-class background.
Somewhere in his family tree he had indigenous blood and therefore was entitled to some sort of textbook scholarship.
He was actually pretty embarrassed and thought it was ridiculous.
I don't think blanket policies like this do anyone any favours apart from giving ammo to bozos like One Nation.
I also struggle with the very grey terms (no pun intended) of "indigenous" and "identifying as indigenous".
I'm also not sure of what to make of essentially white, middle class, urban people who identify as indigenous, getting outraged at Bill Leak's cartoon which has a crack at a close-to-full-blood black guy in a remote community.
Is this really stereotyping and generalising? I see these people as being worlds apart.
Y'know ID, I don't know if you did read them both. From the second one:
"I, maybe more than most people, can completely understand why broke white folks get pissed when the word "Privilege" is thrown around. As a child, I was constantly discriminated against because of my poverty and those wounds still run very deep. But luckily my college education introduced me to a more nuanced concept of Privilege; the term Intersectionality. The concept of Intersectionality recognizes that people can be privileged in some ways and definitely not privileged in others. There are many different types of privilege, not just skin color privilege, that impact the way people can move through the world or are discriminated against. These are all things you are born into, not things you earned, that afford you opportunities others may not have. For example:
Citizenship - Simply being born in this country affords you certain privileges non-citizens will never access.
Class - Being born into a financially stable family can help guarantee your health, happiness, safety, education, intelligence, and future opportunities.
Sexual Orientation - By being born straight, every state in this country affords you privileges that non-straight folks have to fight the Supreme Court for.
Sex - By being born male, you can assume that you can walk through a parking garage without worrying you'll be raped and that a defense attorney will then blame it on what you were wearing.
Ability - By being born able bodied, you probably don't have to plan your life around handicap access, braille, or other special needs.
Gender - By being born cisgendered, you aren't worried that the restroom or locker room you use will invoke public outrage.
As you can see, belonging to one or more category of Privilege, especially being a Straight White Middle Class Able-Bodied Male, can be like winning a lottery you didn't even know you were playing. But this is not to imply that any form of privilege is exactly the same as another or that people lacking in one area of privilege understand what it's like to be lacking in other areas. Race discrimination is not equal to Sex Discrimination and so forth.
And listen, recognizing Privilege doesn't mean suffering guilt or shame for your lot in life. Nobody's saying that Straight White Middle Class Able-Bodied Males are all a bunch of assholes who don't work hard for what they have. Recognizing Privilege simply means being aware that some people have to work much harder just to experience the things you take for granted (if they ever can experience them at all.)"
The first article explains how the author came to the idea of 'white privilege' whilst contemplating 'male privilege'.
"Through work to bring materials from Women's Studies into the
rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's unwillingness to
grant that they are over-privileged, even though they may grant
that women are disadvantaged.They may say they will work to
improve women's status in the society, the university, or the
curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening
Denials which amount to taboos surround the subject of
advantages which men gain from women's disadvantages.
These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged,
lessened or ended.
Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a
phenomenon, I realized that since hierarchies in our society are
interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of white privilege
which was similarly denied and protected.
As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something which puts
others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its
corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage."
"Nobody's saying that Straight White Middle Class Able-Bodied Males are all a bunch of assholes who don't work hard for what they have. "
I'm really not too sure about this sometimes Shats.
Actually, I'm quite sure I've sat in more than one lecture/tute which pretty much hinged on this premise, apart from not using the word arsehole.
I would have thought that, in terms of indigenous issues, Australian history was unequivocal on the point of middle class white men being a bunch of racist arseholes. An interpretation some aspects of your discussion do much to confirm.
Newsflash .....The world is unfair.
You can stick your white guilt in your arse.
Wait and see how far your white privilege gets you if we ever end up at war with China.
This is how hard it needs to be .
Repeat after me - "Yes, I acknowledge I've got it pretty bloody good, but it wasn't always this way for my ancestors and it might not always be this way for my descendants . So I'm just going to enjoy it while it lasts and make sure that I , personally , treat everyone as I'd like to be treated and with as much respect and dignity as they deserve "
Guilt? No. Acknowledgement, yes.
SB, thanks for the links. For me the multicultural monograph was more interesting. For me personally, it had a lot more relevance. Firstly, the articles are written for the US, so you will get variances in meaning and applicability. The articles don't address really what ID is expressing. Male / female privilege point is not racism, neither is sex nor ability. Hence, that's why it is important to see exactly what experience people have living in or near indigenous areas and experience first hand. It does matter exactly where this experience is. Not all indigenous are the same. I don't concur with what McIntosh states and I'm sure there is discrimination out there on many human attributes. Coming from a poor migrant multi ethnic family and schooling and playing footy with blacks, we had a real mix. As kids, racism, discrimination just went over our heads. It just did not matter. It was not relevant. Life was about surfing, playing footy.
Yeah sure we saw 'priveldge' when someone had a bit more money but geez, it meant little.
If McIntosh experienced where we were, her thoughts would be different, I'm sure. Interestingly, the more priveldge you had, we found the more handicapped you were. It would be a set back.
'Change' is the social attribute which will continually cause the issues we are seeing. For us kids we just went along with the change, part of the change. I'm sure it had our parents scratching their heads.
If that comment was aimed at me Blindboy I think you're out of line and off track.
So the indigenous kids you played with went on to have the same opportunities as you tb? I doubt it. A lot of the attitudes that have been expressed here are not really helpful. The issue is not about white guilt. It is about trying to accept indigenous culture and integrate it into the wider culture; about addressing the gaps in life expectancy, health, education and opportunity. It is about changing the racist assumptions that have become so deeply ingrained in our society that they are often instinctive. If you are not fully on board with that be careful what you say. You might get away with it amongst your mates but there are a lot of people who just won't listen to that kind of shit anymore without calling it out for what it is. Crypto racist crap.
Go ahead and call it out Blindboy.
Crew don't stand for crypto rascist crap on the insular peninsular.
The unconscious hand washers. OCD heavy bag bad boys! Groovy!
2016, for real? Its evolution baby!
Mate I live in one of the most diverse suburbs in Sydney. You can hear ten different languages between the surf club and the pool. If you look at a map you may notice the peninsula starts at Mona Vale, a long way from here, so yeh generally there is a pretty low local tolerance for racism. As for being specific there was the suggestion back there that indigenous people who happened to be light skinned and have found their way into the middle class should not be entitled to certain benefits. This is high level bullshit worthy of Hansen herself.
Then there was the related assumption that since you did not know their race they could not be subject to discrimination. So just ignore the community they grew up in, the generational disadvantage that accrued to their parents and grand parents who were not quite white enough to pass. It's all OK 'cos no-one knows they're indigenous now. Can you imagine how insulting that is? Oh and the outright lie that if even if you do not identify as indigenous you can still get benefits based on your DNA. Go look, various people have said this crap unchallenged in this thread.
If people are willing to state these opinions in public it makes me wonder what they might actually think or say in private. If others let them go unchallenged the assumption is that they either agree or find them reasonable views. So yep, racist arseholes, here we are!
"Oh and the outright lie that if even if you do not identify as indigenous you can still get benefits based on your DNA. Go look, various people have said this crap unchallenged in this thread."
I'm not making this stuff up, I've told you what I've experienced. If you think I'm talking crap then it's your problem.
"As for being specific there was the suggestion back there that indigenous people who happened to be light skinned and have found there way into the middle class should not be entitled to certain benefits."
Should the above mentioned people receive economic benefits? White, brown or black, if you're middle class then why would you need specific economic handouts based on race?
Surely the money would be better spent on the communities which are actually in dire need of pretty much everything you can name.
Instead of knee-jerk name calling, help me out here Blindboy.
Andy you asserted that the person could claim a benefit without identifying. If they didn't identify why would anyone be looking at their DNA and to the best of my knowledge there are no programs which use DNA to identify indigenous ancestry. You made a very dubious claim about a sensitive issue. It sounds like hearsay. Substantiate your claim or withdraw it. These kinds of statements undermine support for continued funding of indigenous support programs.
On the other issue of middle class benefits. What benefits were they? When were they received? What were the family circumstances? What sort of money was involved? If you cannot give this information you have no right to assert that it happens....and as for only being directed to where it is needed I would be inclined to start with the generous middle class benefits available to the wider community before I looked at indigenous programs. Billions vs millions.
Some of the Victorian and NSW Aboriginals I worked with only had primary school level schooling (government policy). Until the 1967 referendum they couldn't vote nor hold a personal bank account (government policy). They needed formal government permission to travel around the state or country (government policy). When they had their babies they were made to give birth on the back verandah of the bush hospital because they were not allowed inside (government policy) and for housing the mobs were moved off the river banks and forced to live in 3 metre x 3 metre purpose built concrete bunkers with no flooring, doors or windows.
We are talking up until 1967. That is only 49 years ago when Australia had government policies designed to repress all aspects of daily and cultural life of our first nations people. Its worth repeating that, only 49 years ago Australian government policy at a State and Federal level institutionalised racism against Aboriginals.
Some of you say you have Aboriginal mates or went to school with blackfellas. It is therefore highly likely that some of your mates parents, uncles, aunties but most certainly grandparents were born and grew old and died under that repressive racist system. Equally, your own forefathers and mothers but possibly your own parents and grandparents also grew up under this system and perhaps just accepted what the government "decided" for Aboriginals as the "right thing". This history is all part of our DNA and perhaps its good if we all question our personal assumptions and opinions on this topic.
The fellow told me to my face that he didn't identify as indigenous - he saw himself as basically a middle class white person. His story of acquiring the grant for his textbooks was accompanied by shrugs and looks of bemusement.
He used words along the lines of "aboriginality in the family somewhere".
I never used the word DNA.
Again, if you don't believe this story, too bad because it happened. You reckon I'd make this up to jerk you round? Give me a break. No hearsay about it.
What he told a government body or someone else I don't know.
Blindboy, apart from the above info, I haven't mentioned middle class benefits. You might be confusing me with someone else.
I did point out the massive gulf between middle class urban indigenous and the desperately poor and maligned indigenous that I've seen in remote areas and I questioned why, regardless of whether you're white, brown or black, if you're middle class then why would you need specific economic handouts based on race?
By the way Blindboy, I reckon it's pretty lame to go straight for the "racist arsehole" sledge.
I'm putting forward occurrences, opinions and questions that I think are worthy of discussion and you go all shrill on me.
Seems to be typical of conversations these days, everybody loves to get so outraged, it's rapidly become part of the national psyche.
Yes floyd, of course its good. Very good. Good short film too.
Help AM? Spend time imagining the whole, horrific story. Not the pathetic 'history', which is a conniving, gross, dumb pack of lies, but the whole sordid, sickening truth. Go there, as deep as possible. If you can't be fucked, its nothing new. 'Advance Australia fair'. Imagine if that was actually true.
Thru Aboriginal eyes we were their relatives reborn from afterlife.So much so that respective white 'lookalikes' were integrated into appropriated clans,spoilt rotten as mistaken returned relatives. Stories have them pampered long and healthy in this manner. Near all society's different are banished, hermaphrodites and albinos were ever outcast. Many tribes new who or what was banished thus feared moving thru night to face their demon seed. The woman and children were taught to fear these night monsters, men venturing after dark never returned. Vice- versa outcast demons new why they were banished and feared travelling by daylight. 'World protection order' was granted to albinos before each and every society near banished them from earth with United Nations granting LGBTI communities protections and rights. Peace and Love! Hooroo!
Sifting though the stench, a deep investigation of the actual Truth shows that Traditional Indigenous Australians were very accepting. The foundation of those Cultures is inclusiveness. Or all the different Cultures wouldn't have survived and interacted so successfully, for so long. An unmatched record, not even remotely matched actually, in human 'history'.
'History', so much feeble bullshit.
'In 1857 Europeans grabbed two young albino Aboriginal girls whom they claimed were white girls who had survived the wreck of the �Seabelle�. However, they could not speak English and they had no experience of European culture. They were sent to Sydney and confined to institutions where they died within a short time.'
' Survivors were fed by the Aborigines and assisted back towards Brisbane and civilization. Eliza told stories of Aboriginal cruelty, savagery and brutality. She made much money by such tales but, although the truth of her stories has been refuted by many, they had the effect of creating a paranoia of Aborigines amongst the white settlers. One of Eliza Fraser�s legacies was that there would be many massacres of the very people who had helped her.'
'Albinism also comes with some significant disadvantages, as the pigment in your eyes plays a big part in the formation of your eye muscles, retina, and optic nerve, and so many people affected by albinism struggle with significantly impaired vision. Skin cancer is also an issue, as pigment absorbs light and protects skin from melanomas.
Albino animals vulnerable in the wild
'In the wild albino animals are much less likely to survive for a number of reasons. Being fair or white makes them vulnerable to predators, sunburn and cancer; they have a reduced ability to mate, so are likely to die before they get to pass on their genes.'
it is a cunt of a system, not least because of the bugs that should have been ironed out before people were forced to use it. but also because of the massive data base it will become that can be corrupted for all manner of purposes.
I'm just stirring dog of sheep, you know that, but there is a point. to illustrate the ridiculousness and subjectiveness of the PC joke. I would never use retarded like that, despite being the resident anti PC fuckwit on here, but there you are, the one who pulled stunet up for using blackfellows many moons ago, throwing it around nonchalantly. same with tonybarber, I have played, lived, schooled, surfed etc. with 'blacks' but that term just sounds wrong, really really wrong, probably because I haven't heard it used like that since about 1978, well I have but only from saffas and well.... then there's turkeyman and blindboy, guardians and warriors of all things left and correct, yet turkeyman indulged in what I found to be blatant offensive homophobia in a tussle with blowin. and with one of blindboy's first articles, I thought it was wrtten by a twentysomething foolish islamaphobic idiot way back when, until he showed he's quite the opposite with follow up contributions. and floyd, posting photos of scantly clad women, sharing his lewd appreciation for certain women - I love a good set of jugulars - but it all seemed a bit 1970s benny hill. all these things are terribly subjective, and context is well and truly lost on the internet, but we all get a little excited in the heat of the moment. cunt doesn't raise an eyeld in some circles I frequent, but I wouldn't dare drop it in others. context context context.
back to the topic, most impressed with andym's comments, I assumed (wrongly) he was so run of the mill, typical fall in line, cliche left on every topic it was becoming a little boring, I admired it, but boring, good to see the man has some critical thinking going on and is willing to challenge the conventional narrative. it really does become a little boring if we all agree all the time. I've been in that lecture too. and I know of cases like he describes. most impressive people, having said that, I also agree with blindboy, but it comes down to degrees of strength and significance. the identifies as indigenous is a new and slippery term, dna don't matter, apparently it's about anyone being accepted by the indigenous community as being indigenous - interesting concept
but I've got to say blowin is probably spot on. this white privelage bullshit we're enjoying and debating is probably a brief moment in time, barely a line in the larger history of the world. and as I read in the guardian comments a while ago. I wonder how significant all this self indulgent feminist/minority crap will be in the future when the chinese, or muslims, or whoever it is reigns supreme next, and are enjoying their time at the top of the tree. maybe then, under their new overlords, the feminists will appreciate and miss some of the white male traits they spent so much time and energy criticising
but hey, it's nice to be nice, and that's where blowin has good advice
Andy if you look back the insult was used collectively, as in WE not YOU
Kind of going with the two topics as one, if this census thing ever does happen, i wouldn't be surprised to see a bigger jump in Aboriginal population stats, due to the fact that it is much more socially acceptable to identify now as Aboriginal dare i say even kind of trendy.
I know many of my friends who have a degree of Aboriginal DNA from way back although still don't call themselves or identify as Aboriginal might tick the box these days.
And there we all go ... down an Andrew Bolt-like innuendo fuelled and inference ladened rabbit hole.
BB, you asked the question, 'did the indigenous have the same opportunities as we did ?'. Absolutely, in fact, I would suggest more opportunities. Now let me be clear here, what I experienced may not apply to the multitude of indigenous communities out there. Let me also state, that when we get together again, the blacks did agree that they not only had the opportunities and were more 'priveldged'. The 'priveldged' point was brought up by ShatnerB, and I don't concur with it.
Pearson and Perkins thoughts were more in line with our crew. As you know there are many different divergent views which does need to be addressed somehow.
It's essential to look forward and the future because that's where the challenges are.
Your 'racist' jibe is off the mark but that maybe due to lack of information.
Why do you use the word blacks? Why not some other form of more respectful words. Would you call an Aboriginal a black to his or her face and not expect a negative reaction? So why here if you are presenting yourself as a reasonable person?
With respect, you didn't experience anything. You are reporting on a conservation that apparently took place (we have to take your word on that).
Yes there are programs sponsored by government, business and even elite private schools that help propel Aboriginal students through the education and employment maze. These students have opportunities that few of us have, so what? Personally, I am thankful these programs exist as it sits very very comfortably with my personal value system (perhaps herein is why there is so much discussion on this topic).
I have followed the words of Pearson and Perkins very carefully over the years and I respect them greatly. Neither would argue against proactive programs designed to address the inequities in Aboriginal life and equally both would categorically state answers start within the community not in Brisbane, Darwin or Canberra, i.e. consult with the community, don't impose from outside ........ e.g. seem to remember some WA communities wanted to put big restrictions on grog and that was blocked by the Barnett government in Perth because the broader community would also be affected.
Your comment about looking forward totally ignores the bloody past but how have forwardTB? 3 years until the next election? No TB, its an open-ended commitment that's needed.
Floyd, I thought Indo Dreaming had an interesting point regarding more people identifying as Indigenous.
I'm not sure he was being derogatory - I don't necessarily see it as such.
Surely it's a very positive step in our national identity for more people to have pride in their indigenous heritage.
This gets me back to my previous comments about what it means to be indigenous and/or to identify as being indigenous. I think this is a very worthwhile conversation to have (in a constructive way) however leftist groupthink tends to immediately freak out and label this conversation as being racist, which I disagree with.
Of course, it could be a racist conversation but it certainly doesn't have to be.
Speaking of groupthink, which can be defined as occurring when "a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational outcome", I think the left can often shutdown a potentially reasonable conversation by submitting to groupthink.
According to good old Wikipedia, symptoms include
-Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group
-Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent, or stupid.
-Self-censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
-Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group
-Self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information
Sounds very familiar and is worth standing up against.
"I'm just stirring dog of sheep, you know that, but there is a point. to illustrate the ridiculousness and subjectiveness of the PC joke. I would never use retarded like that, despite being the resident anti PC fuckwit on here, but there you are, the one who pulled stunet up for using blackfellows many moons ago, throwing it around nonchalantly. same with tonybarber, I have played, lived, schooled, surfed etc. with 'blacks' but that term just sounds wrong, really really wrong, probably because I haven't heard it used like that since about 1978, well I have but only from saffas and well...."
Well... There's a case of classic cherry picking...... If you'd like to cast your mind back, the blackfellows discussion was in relation to Stu's article, and his comments in defence of his article about aboriginal surfer Otis Carey suing News L..... I pointed out the double standards..... Nothing more, nothing less.... Stop being a Trump, bro...
Fark, what a shit-show! Australia, you're standing in it! You've gotta laugh, hey?
It's an open wound, ain't it? The blacks I mean. Any mention of the blacks. Aussie blacks.
(Cheers, by the way, for re-introducing that term TB...unless you were talking about growing up in Apartheid South Africa? I first thought you were talking about Queensland? Same same, I s'pose. Unless your blacks aren't Aussie blacks but 'black-birded' blacks? Y'know Pacific Island blacks? I'm confused.)
I like how the go-to position straight away for some is well, there's blacks and then there's really blacks. And money. Always money. Money to the blacks. Money. Money. Money.
Stunts had a nice little comment commenting about how unconscious 'normal' things are, 'common sense' stuff, things that you, as an individual take for granted as 'normal' and 'common sense' and 'real'. And connected it to the conversation about the blacks. The Aussie blacks.
SB took this idea and expanded it, teased it out, with a bit of To Kill a Mockingbird, and some articles (mate, how many times...TL:DR...waste of time!). Perception ain't reality. What we think of (or don't) as 'normal' structures, as 'reality', like our institutions, say, in all their manifested forms, are just that: structures. Structures built by power. Who has had the power in our little speck of 'Australia-as-a-structured-concept' time? Male righty whiteys! That's who!
Fuggit, but. Big fucken deal! Like my old homophobia-target, Blowie (is that homophobic?), says, it don't matter 'cos the Chinese and Muslims are coming.
Get doomsday-prepping, comrades, save yourself and your descendants!
(But I'm sure Blowie, being an 'over-population' dude, having your own descendants isn't even a proposition, hey? Taking one for the team! Or is it doing it for the team? Not doing it for the team? Whatever, TEAM AUSTRALIA! Yew!)
Groupthink! Kunt of a sport.
Three huzzahs for Sypo. Anti-PC warrior!
Just don't mention the blacks. Or gingers. Black gingers. Chick black gingers. Muslim chick black gingers. Actually, mention them. Hang on, I just did.
Mad turkey, I'll never learn...apparently. Go to keep chipping away.
I sure wasn't being derogatory at all if any of my comments come across derogatory they are not intended to.
I think my point is very real and relevant 20 to 30 years ago even 10-15 I think it was much less likely that people with lighter to olive skin with Aboriginal DNA would identify as Aboriginal and would often feel embarrassed to do so perhaps because they do not appear Aboriginal or perhaps because Aboriginal people in general were often viewed in a negative light.
To me these things have changed or are changing, people who may not appear as Aboriginal often do identify as Aboriginal and Aboriginal heritage in a sense is often worn as a badge of honour (and rightly so)
That said i have extremely mixed feelings of people identifying as any race just because they have a tiny drop of DNA down the line, i know my view is controversial but i think there should be a proper legal definition.
Remembering there is a difference between race and ethnicity, with race being associated with biology and ethnicity being more about culture.
there's always at least two perspectives, I cringed at indo d's comment, largely because I could predict floyd's response, and there it was. then andym's words show another perspective, dare I say a positive one, possibly something to be celebrated.
the left and right position on just about everything is so bloody predictable. personally I think it's a result of control of the narratives by various media outlets for a very long time, very tightly controlled narratives. the internet has revolutionised this giving everyone a voice for better or worse. the sooner old school players learn to play in this new paradigm the better, because yelling at each other about long held beliefs isn't helping anyone. in fact it is leading to this horrible division we are seeing across the world resulting in things like trump and brexit
anything bolt says the left just jumps on straight away, the same can be said for abbott, steve price, alan jones etc. with no consideration whatsoever for what might be behind ther words. I saw an interview with stan grant recently and the reporter kept digging away at him, plying for grant to say what the reporter wanted him to say regarding 18c and other bolt related issues. in the end grant just said straight up look I know bolt takes a certain perspective on these things but at the same time bolt has a lot of good intentions regarding the plight of aboriginal people, and grant said he respects him. he would not be drawn into the journalist's little web
I'm totally ignorant about stan grant's politics and despite enjoying his work on sbs for years I had no idea he was aboriginal until he started writing for the guardian, is that good or bad? probably both. I've mentioned elsewhere how at the press club grant suggested we need to move on from the harmful 'history wars' of howards era so I'm guessing he may be a little right, but he appears pretty central and balanced to me.
he seems to get this balanced from travelling the world for a decade reporting with CNM, and seeing how other people live. personally I think travel gives people a better perspective than any book can, as you experience 'the university of life' and I'm not talking about fifo missions to bule bubbles in indo, though they definitely help. as part of study I did, there was an old school academic super 8 film shown, that showed the historical interactions between Indonesians and aboriginals based around the trade of trupang (probably wrong, but sea cucumbers anyway) some aboriginals were taken to roti, I think, to trace the former trade route. the most stark thing from this film was an aboriginal woman seeing how the rotinese live and the realisation that these people were way way more deeper in poverty than the aboriginals, and that maybe British colonisation was better than being done over by the Dutch. no colonisation is pleasant.
we all make sense of the world from our culture and education. when either side of politics sees something it really doesn't like it uses words like brainwashing to describe that education, but in reality we are all brain washed. if all you hear are how bad things are then that is how you are going to frame the world. this isn't to say we need to whitewash history, but a little balance and perspective goes a long way.
this is tbe same for the language and words we use. the use of 'blacks' in 2016 appears ridiculous to me, that's from my experiences. while I rile at political correctness, and have used the aboriginies versus aboriginals example on here before, to point the pettyness of political correctness, I still cannot and do not ever use 'aboriginies' because I've been told otherwise (and it annoys the fuck out of me that stunet still used this term afterwards) but hey that's my issue, and my pettyness. when the goodes ape thing was unfolding I literally saw facebook posts from indigenous people laughing at the whole thing saying they had no idea of the historical connotations of the word and went on making more jokes about it. now these were young people, pretty uneducated I guess, but my point is we all live in bubbles across the spectrum of society, and with growing inequality this spectrum has only widened. it seems most interactions these days beyond our immediate friend group are done over the internet where all our social media echo chambers collide, with devastating results. this is the new norm we need to work in, and we all need to find ways to make this more pleasant or at least workable. the guardians 'the web we want' campaign endeavors to do this, lamely in my view, because it has manifested into hyper censorship of anything contrary to the guardian narrative, but it's good to think about it, and it in itself is open to debate.
really we all need to take a chill pill, and respect other's opinions without hanging onto this groupthink thing andym explained above.because it really is ssending legitimate causes backwards
'blacks' tonybarber not cool, evokes strong disappointment, but it's no big deal for me, I'm sure my words piss off blindboy more, but if you're upsetting me, I hate to think how others feel
What comment made you cringe?
I thought i was viewing things from a very non left non right perspective :(
yeh cherry picking
no offence turkeydog, just making a point
love your work by the way, both of youse, youse make me laugh, and think, and that's good
all in good humour....cunts
the become trendy thing
I agree with andym it can be viewed as a good thing, a real development,
but it does have a tacky trendyness to it as well as you and bolt point out
Ha ha okay, i think its true though..i didn't know Bolt said that i will have to google his views on Aboriginal matters.
BTW. good well written post Sypkan.
"I wonder how significant all this self indulgent feminist/minority crap will be in the future when the chinese, or muslims, or whoever it is reigns supreme next, and are enjoying their time at the top of the tree. maybe then, under their new overlords, the feminists will appreciate and miss some of the white male traits they spent so much time and energy criticising"
Please explain, Sypo.
(I'm guessing you're not one of the 'self-indulgent' types (as you put it...wide remit there)? or Chinese or Muslim? Whatever that means...wide remit there)
I was just paraphrasing a guardian comment that got me thinking, blowin brought the comment back to my mind
I'm an uneducated git turkeyman, with friends in high and low places, doctors and dolebludgers describes my mates, my whole shtick on here is trying to bring these worlds together so I'm unsure of your meaning of remit I'll work it out after 7 usages, that's how language works, but I'll have a guess mr wordsmith
I actually read and listen to a lot of feminist theory, I quite respect it, but I'm aware others don't share my respect, and fair enough with how it's all gone recently . so I'll bag feminism because it seems to have become very self indugant of late, doesn't mean I don't listen to it, learn from it, so just clearing that up.
this self indulgance is a result of incredibly wealthy western societies enabling some serious naval gazing. if you're busy making a buck there's no time for naval gazing. the majority of the world is too busy making a buck because we've failed to share the wealth, too selfish. we get to talk about this shit because we all have too much money, too much time on our hands, just my perspective. a bit of pilger maybe
history tells us it won't last forever, many have likened this time to the decadent roman empire before it fell. looking at markets and failing capitalism that time may not be fae away, or we may have another century or so, who knows
someone else will get a shot at the top, china, muslims, India, Indonesia - nah maybe not, that won't happen, but someone will, who knows when? who kniws who?
call me a paranoid prepper I don't care, the time will come...eventually
you got your block of land yet? developing an interest in fruit trees? I am
Gents, it seems some have a problem with 'blacks'. In the context used here, it refers to indigenous Australians. If the indigenous Aussies call their footy team 'all blacks', (and a good one at that), then it's fine by that crew and those around, again how it was used here - always a tough game.
If the Indigenous Advisory Council to the government define their role as 'building reconciliation and creating a new partnership between black and white Australians' then again in the context the term is valid.
Should mention that if you are really confused with any such terms, then you should contact the Human Rights Commission.
Shytkan, if ya gonna make a point, make it a decent one, not a Piers Ackerman special, yeah?