What's what?

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Shatner'sBassoon started the topic in Friday, 6 Nov 2015 at 7:48pm

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stunet's picture
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stunet commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 10:52am

"...her going into bat for a detainee with a lengthy violent criminal history..."

Civil liberties have come to the fore since the Abbott/Turnbull govts came into power - 18c etc etc - and this is a similar scenario. He was locked up for seven years and then another seven years on top without due process. I doubt Triggs would want him in her granny flat but the law is the friggen law. I'm way more worried about govts who would bypass institutions (arbitrary incarceration was in the Magna Carta), even try to dismantle them as Abbott attempted, than any individual. It's a slippery slope from there on...

Ironic that Brandis' whole schtick on civil liberies - you defend human liberty even when it's distasteful - goes down the dunny when it suits him.

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 11:11am

sypkan, give me some time but I'll will get back to you but be forewarned I have no definitive answers like everyone else just some suggested guiding principles on perhaps where to start ...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 11:23am

thanks floyd

there are no definite answers

but with decades of well intentioned policies things are just getting worse, not for all, but definirely for those who fall through the cracks

and now we have the scourge of meth in the communities, scary times

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 12:02pm

sypken ..."yeh he was a bit of a egotistical control freak, but he's a bloody smart one."

and now giant sook.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 12:30pm

Floyd writes;
"@sheepy, still holding to your position on the election result?"

What the fuck does that mean? Tell me what position I held, buddy.... Keep in mind I called Turnbull a "shit sandwich"... Now tell me what "position" I held....

Sheepdog

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 1:06pm

That's it Happy, Rudd's a bright fella but not bright enough in some ways to realise that he would have been better off not going crying to the media.

Dignity and the high moral ground did a runner from Australian politics some time ago.

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 2:03pm

sheeez sheepy, no need to fly of the kennel all teeth and slobber ... you position was BS came up short, wasn't the real deal coz he has knife skills and Tony Turnbull was always gunna shoe it in thereby proving your theory that someone other than BS was the answer ... my counter was focus less on personality and more on policy ... and ... given the result it was the election to loose and that BS did a good job focusing on policy ... a solid platform to which to build upon b/w now and the next election. So given TT is still at the mercy of the fuckards on the right who would you prefer to be than sheepy?

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 2:14pm

Floydo, not directly quoting from anything, but did read the AHRC report as a result of the story first coming out in the Aussie. In addition, i read anything I came across after that regarding the case.

As I said, it's a complex situation, how do you weigh up the safety of Mr and Mrs Joe public versus the individual human rights of a person who doctors (psycologists and psychiatrists) can't agree whether there is a personality disorder present or not? What is indisputable though (and Triggs was a bit light on the detail in her report) was that Mr Basikbasik was pre-disposed to violence, was prone to substance abuse and self harm and had violently killed his de-facto. Sure he was only convicted of manslaughter so he didn't really mean to kill her, but you can sure as hell draw the conclusion that he meant to fuck her up. On top of that you can throw on the numerous assaults and willful acts of destruction.

Under UNHCR law, he can't be sent back to Indo and with no proper management program in place, Triggs cannot guarantee peoples safety if he's released. She did however recommend an arbitrary compensation figure of $350k and to some people doing it tough back in Oz, they might just think that's a little rough.

Fuck, what do you do? I don't have the answer but I sure as hell wouldn't want him raoming around anywhere near me or my family.

1173

tonybarber's picture
tonybarber's picture
tonybarber commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 2:57pm

@Benski, ok, I will try again. Let the spammers be spammed. Firstly, it's Important that you understand exactly what the Human Rights Commission's (HRC) roles and responsibilities are. This is crucial for my point that Ms Triggs is incompetent for her role. Looking at the HRC web site we have:
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/about-commission-0
Looking at QUT case, I would suggest Ms Triggs has / is failing in her duties on several points.
Sadly the case is still on going. There are many articles, items written already, just use google with key words of Triggs QUT 18c Prior should get a fair summary of the case. Hence you can choose whatever media you are happy about.
Firstly, understand that two students have decided to pay Ms Prior $5000, to avoid further legal expenses. You need to ask yourself why ? It's a fair point that this is a form of legal 'blackmail'. Sadly this happens in many forms of litigation.
Secondly, the QUT case is not resolved (hence few comments or opinions given for obvious reasons). Already there is talk of legal fees approaching $1million. Again ask yourself why has it gone so long.
If you feel that Ms Triggs has done a competent job of this, bear in mind she is directly involved, then sorry but I don't agree.
Importantly, if anyone has a possible rights issue then should they have to be subjected to such a process.
If you view the responsibilities of the HRC then it is there to assist in resolving such complaints. Again ask yourself has that been the case here. Clearly not in this case.
As mentioned, I did ask the HRC for clarification the several terms such 'offend', 'racist'.
The response was a link to the law as defined on a gov web site. Fine for a lawyer, but for a mere pleb, useless.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 30 Jul 2016 at 3:27pm

"sheeez sheepy, no need to fly of the kennel all teeth and slobber ... you position was BS came up short, wasn't the real deal coz he has knife skills, and Tony Turnbull was always gunna shoe it in thereby proving your theory that someone other than BS was the answer ... my counter was focus less on personality and more on policy ... and ... given the result it was the election to loose and that BS did a good job focusing on policy ... a solid platform to which to build upon b/w now and the next election. So given TT is still at the mercy of the fuckards on the right who would you prefer to be than sheepy?"

Buddy, after your meme attack, the gloves are off....
So that's your "interpretation", is it? OK..... Well that's an interesting subjective pov...... Lets dissect...

"you position was BS came up short,".................... Well.... He fuckn lost didn't he?

"wasn't the real deal coz he has knife skills"........... Was was that primary vote again? 2nd lowest in history? Is that right?

"Tony Turnbull was always gunna shoe it in thereby proving your theory that someone other than BS was the answer"..... No... I said Shorten wont win........ I did not say it would be a shoe in..... That's just fanciful descriptive writing on your behalf...... During March I gave shambles a remote steve bradbury of a chance, if Turnbull kept fucking up... But the libs hung in there.... Just..... And Mediscare was went too far.... All shunter had to do was point out the facts re' freezing rebates, medical imaging, prescriptions etc etc etc.......

"given the result it was the election to loose and that BS did a good job focusing on policy "..... He did both well, didn't he - focused, and lost.....

"a solid platform to which to build upon b/w now and the next election"... BRILLIANT!!!! Another 3 years of platform building!!! Hurahh!!!! That'll be 6 wonderous years of Shortens platform!!!!
Platform needed? Phone platforms r us!!

Here's the deal... I offered a simple critique of where when and how Labor lost possibly the most winnable "first term government election"..... And I stand by it...... A critique does not mean I support the coalition by default.... That's simply absurd.

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Sunday, 31 Jul 2016 at 8:29am

Gillian Triggs is a highly qualified lawyer and solicitor with a distinguished international career in environmental, criminal, human rights and civil rights law. She has been admitted to the Supreme Court of Victoria etc etc. In short she is a highly trained and experienced legal officer with an international reputation for excellence.

Described in its most simplest form Gillian Triggs is an employee of the Commonwealth charged with administering the relevant legislation that enables the Human Rights Commission to operate. Putting it another way the Human Rights Commission enacts the laws Australia's parliament passes. Apart of the legal officers employed directly by the Human Rights Commission they would also have access to other legal opinion and resources where warranted.

If Gillian Triggs or any officer of the Human Rights Commission beached any enabling law or legislation than the parliament can (and should) rightly act.

I have googled the QUT case as TB has suggested and it seems the Murdoch press are at the forefront of its reporting. I have read several articles and nowhere I have found any reference to the HRC breaching any of its enabling legislation but I did read lots of opinion (as opposed to facts) on how this case is "discriminating" against non-Aboriginal students.

So, what's all this about apart from the conservatives' ongoing war on the HRC?

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Monday, 1 Aug 2016 at 12:32pm

Just wanna take a quick break from all of this.... On the weekend, a beautful soul was lost thanks to a complete fucktard..... Former Sunny Coast girl and totally awesome babe Tanami Naylor was struck and killed by a low life in melbourne..... She was with 2 friends, waited for the pedestrian light to turn green.... And NO SHE WASNT PLAYING POKEMON like some of the pathetic media has reported........ Fuckwits...
She stepped out first on the road, as she was all exited to be having a holiday.... She was absolutelyed cleaned up in front of the boys....... They were on their way to catch up with a mutual friend in Melbourne, Tiffany..... The family is ruined.... Tiff on the phone to me yesterday in a complete state of breakdown......
It's times like these that draws the oxygen out of ones body, and leaves you in a state of numbness....
Call someone you love...... Call them today.... Don't message them..... Call them.... Hear their voice....

Sheepdog

zenagain's picture
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zenagain commented Monday, 1 Aug 2016 at 1:59pm

Poor thing. Sorry to read about that Sheepie, 6 degrees and all that.

Sincere condolences to the family. RIP Tanami.

Hope they lock the maggot up for a long time.

1173

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Monday, 1 Aug 2016 at 10:14pm

Sad news Sheepdog, tragic for all ...

tonybarber's picture
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tonybarber commented Monday, 8 Aug 2016 at 10:36am

@benski, well just to add a little to the Triggs resume, she apparently wishes to prevent any public comment on how the Human Rights Commission (HRC) has handled the QUT case. So your right to comment formally on this issue, is prevented by the HRC. Ahhh, freedom of speech.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/public-not-wanted-at-in...

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Monday, 8 Aug 2016 at 5:23pm

Hey Tones I assume you will be watching 4 corners tonight on ABC TV.

Tones Abbott is spilling his guts on the NSW Liberals who he accuses of being controlled by lobbyists who are apparently handing out favours (preselection support) in return for favours that support their businesses. Tones Abbott apparently will use the "C" word, that's right TB, corruption.

All this on top of the ICAC revelations, Arthur Sinodinos' memory loss and the AEC refusal to hand over $4M in election funds until the NSW Libs reveal where all those political donations came from.

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Monday, 8 Aug 2016 at 9:43pm

Floyd I think heir barber has moved on from unions. He's got a hardon for this human rights thing. I'm sure you've seen all his commentary on the serious human rights issues like keeping children in rape cages, the refugee convention, aboriginal children abused by by police and prison guards etc etc. he is truely a champion of the cause.

tonybarber's picture
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tonybarber commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 10:20am

TF, 'serious human rights issues' - now that seems creative. What is 'serious', what is not a 'serious' human rights issue ?. A human life, possibly ?

tim foilat's picture
tim foilat's picture
tim foilat commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 11:26am

Why would that statement be 'creative', can you not understand the definition of serious?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 4:29pm

syphon commented "floyd I am really genuinely interested on your thoughts on where to head with indigenous australians at this point in time. from what i see kids are getting locked up as a result of the effects of intergenerational trauma, adults too, really unfortunate but this does breed dangerous citizens, and is very difficult to treat, a nasty cycle. with all the recent trouble at arrakun a panel on the drum (including that mundine fellow) had a heated debate with no solution whatsoever, a call for law and order to pervail, while avoiding locking people up, was the general outcome, seems impossible really. the aboriginal elders asking the police to do their job, while the police claim they cannot do their job due to cultural sensibilities and political correctness, a really nasty situation, 'wicked problems' as one academic puts it. trauma doesn't go away and even if we get the solution right we will feel the effects for generations to come. if we get this wrong the shame of this nation will become beyond outrageous."

really really interested in your thoughts.

No one going to tackle this question????

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 4:33pm

According to https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/aboriginal-pop...

The indigenous Australian population is between 2.5-3% of the Australian population.

Or should i say identify as indigenous, so get that stereotype picture of a very dark skinned Aboriginal in the outback out of your head.

(75%) of Aboriginal people lived in cities and non-remote areas. 32% lived in major cities, 21% in inner regional areas and 22% in outer regional areas. Only a quarter lived in remote (9%) and very remote (15%) areas [9].

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 5:45pm

indo the problem of indigenous disadvantage in Australia is already well beyond outrageous. It is disgraceful and, along with our treatment of refugees, is a clear signal to other nations that we are not so much racist, as suffering from a massive empathy deficit.
Our great failure has been our indifference, or outright contempt, for indigenous culture. Even now, if pressed, most Australians see the issue as one of integrating indigenous people into the mainstream culture. The idea that we might incorporate any aspect of indigenous culture into the wider culture just does not seem to occur to them. The fact that the only Australian art anyone outside Australia is interested in is indigenous might, in a more self aware culture, be seen as an indication of the power of their culture.
We have this incredible cultural resource that could transform our national identity from just another standard disposable white bread self centred western clone into something much more powerful, sustainable and interesting, but nah we'll just import our culture along with our cars and phones.

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 6:05pm

Well said BB

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 6:49pm

Yes well said BB.
As children we were equally taught our own fairy tales, as well as the creation myth of the Sunny Coast, a powerful and compelling tale (especially when you can gaze at the island that resulted from the myth every day at the beach).
I once worked on an island settlement and marveled at a boat being built to teach traditional hunting to the kids; maybe that's not the 'solution' as such but it sure was impressive, as was its builder's skill and the care he had for his people's culture. As we are surfers we are that one level closer to nature and many readily empathise with indigenous world views.
Perhaps the biggest surprise was finding concentric ring stone carvings in my travels to the far flung corners of Oz and realising they are identical to carvings found and documented in Europe, home of my indigenous ancestors. The idea of a world wide, shared, nature based culture before the last ice age is tantalising.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 8:31pm

All the stats and figures show Indigenous people are disavantaged things like low life expectancy, high infant mortality, general health, education, employment etc

And I can understand how the roughly 25% of indigenous people are disadvantaged that live in remote to very remote areas, where obviously population and services of all kinds are lacking and employment is almost non existent.

But why are the other 75% of Indigenous people who live in cities and non remote areas disadvantaged?

In theory they should have access to all the services non indigenous people have such as Education, Health, Housing and other government services and payments and on top of that have access to payments and programs etc only available to indigenous people.

Are the figures possibly kind of messed up? Is there a chance the 75% of indigenous people in cities are not as disadvantaged as the stats make them appear?

Which would make those in remote areas figures actually be a lot lot worse than the figures show overall.

Please Stunet give me an ignore button for Talking Turkey, Shatners Basoon, Dale Cooper, Factotum, Pupkin, and any new fake profile he decides to create.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 9:27pm

indo a lot of indigenous disadvantage is inter-generational. My parents were educated and had good jobs and so gave me a good start in life. Most indigenous people of their generation received, at best, a brief sub-standard education and had few employment opportunities. For most of their lives they were ineligible to vote or receive government benefits. They were subject to gross discrimination in every aspect of their life. An indigenous person could not even rent on the northern beaches until well into the 70s and I suspect might even struggle today. As recently as the mid 90s I witnessed a young indigenous man being spat at on the main street of a NSW country town because he was with a white woman.
The educational and social disadvantages were joined by financial disadvantages. Indigenous people were denied access to the property market in areas most likely to increase in value. They were routinely denied loans. Not as disadvantaged as the stats? Mate the stats don't even begin to tell the story of indigenous disadvantage. They measure the things that can be measured. There's no way to measure the loss of dignity and self confidence brought about by constant discrimination and abuse......I could go on. Many indigenous people of my age belong to the stolen generation and ended up in institutional hell holes. Be careful what you say on this subject indo. There's no excuse for ignorance of these issues.

Hunt's picture
Hunt's picture
Hunt commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 10:06pm

According to the World Health Organisation,

'Of these 10, the single strongest predictor of our health and wellbeing is our position on the social gradient (or the 'social ladder'). Whether measured by income, education, place of residence or occupation, those people at the top of the gradient have the most power and resources, and on average live longer and healthier lives. Those people at the bottom have the least power and usually run at least twice the risk of serious illness and premature death as those near the top.'

It's a despicable, beyond primitive situation where self proclaimed 'advanced' humans can't even begin to comprehend the far reaching, long term effects that the british butchering, slaughtering and massacre of Indigenous Australians had and has on them today. That alone is enough to dramatically, negatively effect anyone, but is also coupled with the conniving 'founding', the invasion of and stealing of Indigenous Austalian's homes, the total ridicule, denial and destruction of their Societies, Cultures and lifestyles, the classifying them as less than human, and the blatant attempted genocide. All this took place in only the last couple of hundred or so years, and was in full flight no where near that long ago.

Yet daily people reel in horror, at in comparison miniscule contemporary events, identifying and highlighting the devastating long term effects on the 'victims' and their families. But, like some mentally ill, savage killers and murderers, they, brute like, have no ability or capacity to understand or feel the far reaching and monumental effects, and the pain of the Indigenous Australians who survived the very worst of global atrocities.

Like a crazed mass killer, national innocence is protested in the face of undeniable facts, and like the crazed killer, is combined with total lack of emotion, sympathy and as stated, empathy. and the endless washing of the hands. OCD.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Tuesday, 9 Aug 2016 at 10:29pm

as my son moves through primary school I will be very interested to learn about what they teach in relation to australian history and particularly the stolen generation.

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 12:13pm

@Blindboy ... very well said.

@Hunt ... powerful words.

@happyaaS... I'm hoping its different now but I would think it will be secondary school before anything is mentioned in depth about Aboriginal history. Depending on the school's location and perhaps the calibre of individual teachers they might get something taught around NAIDOC week. You could be proactive and ask your children's teachers. I studied Australian History in secondary school & at university and I got very little on this from the Aboriginal perspective until the last years of secondary school. I seem to remember this topic was hotly debated during Howard's time in the context of his government's constant fiddling with the national school curriculum ... part of the conservative's "battle of ideas".

For my part, I am loathed to add much to the debate. I have worked in this field and with many outstanding, beautiful, warm-hearted, witty and tirelessly hard working Aboriginals. The problems are real as is the disadvantage and prejudice but so are the successes and the warm hearted community people getting on with their lives against all odds.

I'll make one final point. In my opinion many of the issues that are regularly raised in the Australian media by people of (relative) privilege and power as so-called "Aboriginal problems" is in itself a form of racism. Problems like homelessness, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse, unemployment and poor school attendance exist throughout Australia and are not confined to remote or regional Aboriginal communities. So if community welfare services are stretched to past breaking point in our towns and cities helping the wider Australian community with these problems how on earth do we expect remote Aboriginal communities to do any better with even less available support mechanisms. If we want these problems addressed in the broader Australian community and the Aboriginal community then we need to accept higher taxation to pay for the required support services.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 10:00am

"But why are the other 75% of Indigenous people who live in cities and non remote areas disadvantaged?"

I'll throw a few sporadic thoughts at the question...

Until I had kids I had no idea of the invisible path my parents (and extended family, and even close neighbours) were leading me on. No idea at all. So when I found my place in the word I figured I'd led myself there and that I alone had earned it.

It wasn't until I became friends with a few fellow dads who were raised with absent parents that I began to perceive the template I'd inherited. I had skills that they didn't. Skills I didn't even know I had. I also had experiences to draw upon, and until becoming a father I'd been completely unaware of their presence or their value.

What I mean by that is I had good parenting, loving family, neighbourly support, and a ready line of role models. You take that shit for granted when you're young...hell, I took it for granted until very recently. It only became apparent when the dads I mentioned - who are devoted fathers, solid citizens - had no well of experience to draw upon when raising their own kids and felt like they were floundering. They started making bad choices.

I equate this with the break in Aborginal lineage and how hard it is to get destitiute families off the ropes. What if it's not just an absent father but a wholly dysfuctional family unit? Those 75% of Indigenous folk have many more hardships to endure than what's visible to you and I. And breaking that cycle is difficult because we adopt the examples our elders set.

The metric of 'assistance' is only measured financially but money means little when inherited culture is the real arbiter of success. A great many Indigenous folk have inherited no templates for making it in the world and that's why they're disadvantaged.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 11:44am

Back on board.. Floyd and zen - thanks for the kind words.....

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 11:53am

Does anyone even give a shit anymore? Darwin Port now run by the chinese.... Cubby station.... Countless farms..... Now even Singapore raids the carcass... Just bought the Snowy mountains hydro for a steal at $ 392 000 000 ........Apart from selling everything WE OWN, what do governments do?

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
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floyd commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 12:17pm

Good to see you back Sheepster, my long held view about flogging off everything, the 3rd world doesn't allow it but we do, so long as "our Government" stop the boats all is ok in the "lucky country".

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 1:01pm

excellent comments from all above, though I think indo d is a little simplistic in his approach, too much bean counter. but his merit is in showing the fair concerns of many austrailans. big points to stunet for illustrating the devastating effects of disruption of family, difficult for outsiders to appreciate. but floyd, you promised me more, not looking to disect your argument btw.

I'm not advocating locking people up, quite the opposite, but unfortunately we're at a point in time there is no alternative for some individual cases.

I know this a touchy subject so I will try to play nice. indo d shows a perspective (a fair one from my perspective) of the average aussie that sees ridiculous amounts of money trying to address disadvantage with limited success. pauline hanson was belittled for pointing out positive discrimination, and even now the media talks as though she was telling lies, most of us know this isn't true, because it does exist, and the fact we cannot talk about such things feeds resentment, and gives the redneecks ammo. trying to keep these things quiet seems ridiculous in the internet era. as sheepdog pointed out elsewhere, even the rockerfellers are lamenting their loss of control of the narrative.

personally I've got no issue with aboriginals having a little extra help, and I believe most Australians would agree. these things come down to personal philosophies and arguments about equality versus equality of opportunity. I think where we've gone wrong is by trying to undo centuries of wrongdoing solely with monetary solutions. trying ti buy our way out of guilt as is often thrown around. this made us feel better for a while handing out flash cars and white man houses etc. but failed to address the real issues. now a little wiser, it's all about autonomy and what aboriginals want, self determination and a heap of other academic crap. so we've given aboriganals the money to distribute, which is good in theory.

however, as this four corners story shows, we have not given aboriginals the skills to manage such huge responsibility. in this case some white guy has rorted millions of dollars out of a community because the locals didn't have the 'financial literacy' to manage such a situation. personally I cannot believe this is still happening in 2016, we've had decades of this shit, and there was virtually no response from the public about the story, probably because we've heard it all too many times before.

(couldn't post with link)

from my perspective we seem to go from one extreme to the other with policies, with no overarching cohesive plan, and no mechanisms to bridge the extremes.

I wholeheartedly agree we need to learn to value aboriginal culture. we also need measures to preserve it. however the thinking that this is the solution for all aboriginals is simplistic at best. many aboriginals are as urban and white as most Australians and may want to preserve and live the culture,. but some are as black and remote as possible and just want what the whitefellas have. because of Australia's misguided attempt to stamp out aboriginal culture we seem hyper vigilant to now preserve it, and desperately grasp at it as the solution to all.

pauline hanson is a fuckwit, but attempts at shutting her down are serving no one. let her have her say, and let Australians on the whole shut her down, by saying we are tired of aboriginal disadvantage, and we're willing to do something about it. because I believe the vast majority of Australians feel this way if we can just put these tired old arguments behind us.

to do this we need a new perspective that includes all indigenous australians views, not just a few over educated academics. and australia as a whole needs to talk about more than just the fucking useless piece of paper called the constitution, but a treaty as well, and a heap of other things, and how these things can lead to real financial independence and autonomy. we need big picture solutions because the putting out spot fires approach isn't workimg.

spending 160k a year on remote community individuals for eternity , or whatever figure abbott came up with, is just ridiculous. not least because it's providing a miserable existance. it's not the 160k that's the problem, it's the outcomes that's the problem, with little change in sight. it's not racist to question this figure, it's common bloody sense, and the fact we still cannot talk about these things is just immaturity from all involved. enough with the bloody semantics.

most importantly we need to talk about assimilation and whether it is expected or not. personally from working with aboriginals I think it is an unreasonable expectation from whitefellas, and we should talk about a living wage with some land based responsibilities or something, for all, rather than giving 15 blackfellas token ranger jobs. I'm sure they do good work but what about the rest of the people?

maybe rather than getting caught up on phrases like patriarchy the white man can manage a sovereign wealth fund until such a time the blackfellas can take it over. but really when I look at the competence and intelligence of the Dodsons etc. I really don't understand how it's all still going so wrong.

most importantly we need to do what we learnt 30 years ago but still haven't done. ask the blackfellas what they want, ask all of them!! and stop treating them like some one size fits all homogeneous mob

but back to the topic at hand, I cannot see any alternative to incarceration when people have blown multiple second chances, maybe a bush setting rehabilitation camp.

it's so sad that being locked up has become an accepted part of their culture as displayed in the guardian recently

Hunt's picture
Hunt's picture
Hunt commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 1:07pm

I equate this with the break in Aborginal lineage and how hard it is to get destitiute families off the ropes. What if it's not just an absent father but a wholly dysfuctional family unit? Those 75% of Indigenous folk have many more hardships to endure than what's visible to you and I. And breaking that cycle is difficult because we adopt the examples our elders set.

'The metric of 'assistance' is only measured financially but money means little when inherited culture is the real arbiter of success. A great many Indigenous folk have inherited no templates for making it in the world and that's why they're disadvantaged.'

A huge topic. Especially when the Cultures are so vastly different. When even the meaning of 'success' is worlds apart.

You are right Floyd, how can it, the present framework, 'template' and situation be anything but utterly racist. When the truth is that the whole situation is based on perceived superiority, upheld by nothing but base, brute force. We live in a stolen land, a home recently occupied, loved and cared for meticulously and passionately, for at least 40, 000 years, but probably far longer, by the most successful Cultures ever. Bottom line is, the only equality that Indigenous Australians are allowed is based on our whims and decisions.

At sheepdog also, Traditional Indigenous Australians were charged, full of, infused, conditioned, educated with emotion, passion, love for their home, their Mother. And their part in the biggest, inclusive picture. Emotion so real, but also so foreign to our culture. Our system that we forced on all, loves above all else, is moved by money. Gold. So we consciously and unconsciously gouge every last scrap at utterly any cost. All is seen as just a means to more money. Nursing homes. Funerals. Grave sites. They must be profitable. As Traditional Indigenous Australians demonstrated so incredibly well, and as do The North Sentinel Islanders, our whole system is just a mental construct, one not at all necessary for well being. And in their eyes, and matched against their record and result, one that is a total failure.

Shift emotion, change is guaranteed. Our systems champions are clever with emotion. Its not for the cogs. Its something to be removed. Feared. Like anything it can be a double edged sword. The workers don't need it. 'Smart' people avoid it. Good little cogs with their 'smart' badges shining like gold.

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tonybarber commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 2:12pm

Excuse if this is a repeat but this site seems to give a good background and info regarding the indigenous issue - https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/selfdetermination/abo....
Getting a common agreement is difficult and seems to be a major issue in this. Getting an common agreement is a challenge due to the many languages, cultures and history amongst the blacks.

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floyd commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 2:24pm

@sypkan, with respect I didn't promise you more I just said I would get back to you. I did try to draft a response but found doing so deeply personal and full of the memories of my Aboriginal mentors and friends who are now sadly deceased. If I had finished that response the themes would have been consultation, respect, dignity, compassion and a desire to see action through to their required long-term conclusion. In the words of one aunty giving the federal minister a good ear bashing at a national meeting I attended "don't set this up unless you are prepared to see it through, otherwise you are setting us up to fail again".

I have nothing else to say other than highly recommend this short film ... Babakiueria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUMpPgMGCe8

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 7:16pm

I hope this government comes it's census.........

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 7:25pm

Interesting thing about this Census debacle......... Good "data" has a value..... Companies pay big bucks for data, so they can target you re' advertizing..... ............ Now, back when the census was anonymous, when you didn't have to put your name to it, the data was worth nothing, because it was anonymous and data agencies could not target anyone.... But now, with compulsory naming, that data is worth a goldmine.... So, this fucktarded government has just made our data a target for hackers, who can sell our data to the highest bidder..... It's like living in a monty python sketch.......

Sheepdog

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 7:44pm

my understanding is that the census has always asked for your name.

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floyd commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 9:22pm

Sheepy, did you see Gruen tonight? The pitch was on selling Tasmania to China, very funny & sad all at the same time.

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truebluebasher commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 9:36pm

re: Plenty here give a shit about aborigines,good to see. Waves of Seafarers is a book I drafted then gifted to Gold Coast Local studies Library.Celebrates Aboriginal East coast surf rescues(Moreton Bay/Northern rivers).Other Aboriginal research on local canoe designs, I gifted here exclusively on my first Swellnet posting re; 20 April 2016 Peruvian 'reed board' finds a home on Gold Coast. About the money pit to Aboriginal communities re;( ABC 4 corners- "Ripped Off" 6/June/2016),opens eyes and shakes heads.note still freely available. Re; Census..many thought letter as real estate ad, wrongly upfolded no peel or seal security code revealing itself by simple glass of water as hacker. Online assigned password given... prefer your own safer option or not,same with given receipt no.Farming out 2 sets seems at play! Can't be trusted with one set of digits,what of 3 sets.

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 10:55pm

I missed it floyd......

Happy.... They never kept your name in a data base.... they destroyed it...... But there is a lot more to this.... Very disturbing actually....... Stay tuned......

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 10 Aug 2016 at 11:27pm

Ok....... the census debacle is the tip of the iceberg....... I have 3 letters for you - IBM........ The huge multi national..... They handled the census......

In Qld, under the Newman gov', in 2007 IBM was awarded the Queensland Health’s payroll system contract..... It went to shite...... Absolute shite..... It was implemented 2 years late, 1.18 BILLION dollars over budget, with over 35000 problems..... get this! The contract was only for 6.19 million, yet went 1.18 BILLION over ..... No shit........... Google it......
The Qld government took IBM to court...... Only in april this year, the court made a decision..... IBM won.... The government lost....... So on top of the 1.18 billion, the tax payer now has a massive legal bill.....

Having known all of this was going on, and having seen IBM's shoddy work in Qld, why would the Abbott Gov award the 27 oct 2014 9.6 million dollar tender for the census to IBM? Why is it so?.....

And to top it off, on the 15/3 2016, the Federal Government gave IBM another contract, this one with the dept' of human services, for 5 years at 484 million dollars........The technology provided by IBM will support government projects including the myGov online interface to the ATO, Centrelink, Medicare and Child Support systems, as well as the Personally Controlled Electronic Health Record project.

So........ IBM screws Qld for for over a billion in 2007/08, with a failed system......... No one takes note..... They are then given the census..... well we saw what happened last night...... And they now have 5 years at the ATO, Clink, Medicare, Child support, etc etc etc...... And the governemnt wants you to believe that your census data will not be cross referred?? Fuckn spare me......
But more alarming is IBM's "safer planet", a data sharing service.......

Maybe certain folk in the coalition have IBM contacts?

Sheepdog

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 at 6:17am

thanks Floyd, sorry to hear that

"don't set this up unless you are prepared to see it through, otherwise you are setting us up to fail again".

and there lies the problem, no trust from the blackfellas, and no commitment from the whitefellas, just governments throwing money around again trying to put out spot fires while the flames rage in the back paddock

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floyd commented Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 at 8:43am

after 200+ years of genocide and bullshit its reasonable to say trust should be earned not freely given

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 at 9:46am

oh the no trust thing is fair enough, they're been burnt too many times

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tonybarber commented Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 at 10:06am

SD, it was Labor that awarded IBM the Qld health system contract. It was the Libs that took them to court and lost. Now, the truth is the bureaucrats stuffed that up and hence the Libs slapped a ban of further contracts with IBM in Qld. Good to see Labor still following that ban.
Re the census system, the stress testing was the responsibility of an Aus company and it seems they slipped up. The bureaucrats decided on IBM for census system. Now the MyGov.au system is the next one that is turning into another mess but to blame the government at the time is thin one. The fat cats are the ones that need to be taken to task.
Forget about the privacy of the census. Google know more about you than you do and they know where you live.

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Sheepdog commented Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 at 11:25am

Barber..... then why would Abbott and Turnbull award contracts to IBM having seen what happened in Qld?
Are they retarded?
And now shock horror!!!!! Turnbull blames IBM!!!!!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/census-2016-turnbull-co...

Bahahahahahahaha.... Groundhog day!!!!!!!

BTW, google is voluntary.... They wont fine me $180 a day if I dont give them my name.... I dont pay tax to google.... And i can opt out and go off grid...... i cant opt out of the governemnt....

Sheepdog

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AndyM commented Thursday, 11 Aug 2016 at 12:09pm

I don't believe that the government should have our names on the census forms but at the same time, a bit of perspective is good.

Barberino is right, companies like Google, Facebook, even Kmart, Coles and Bunnings probably know us better than we know ourselves.

We're right to resist the census in its current form but intense scrutiny should also be directed elsewhere.

I know I'm starting to reconsider my habit of paying by card at the above-mentioned bricks and mortar places.