What's what?

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Shatner'sBassoon started the topic in Friday, 6 Nov 2015 at 7:48pm

AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.

LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 9:42am

Thanks Crypto, I hadn't picked up that you were referring to epigenetics in your earlier posts. As I said it seems a reasonable hypothesis but there is a big BUT about that.

The problem is the complexity of the genetics. In particular the total variation within any population is much greater than the variation between populations. This suggests that any epigenetic effects on populations are likely to be small. If the group is defined tightly enough eg holocaust survivors, then the effects can be clearly identified but with a population as large and diverse as Australia's pre-invasion indigenous population the effects are going to be very difficult to identify and far less certain.

The other aspect of this that is really important is that culture and environment are much easier to change than the genetic composition of a population. If we want to change behaviour then we need to concentrate on them. Indo and Blowin might be disrespectful at times but they have a valid point. Genetics can be used to create division where none need exist.

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 11:46am

blinder, one of the reasons for the outstanding 80,000 year success in Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures, was the ability to regularly, relatively peacefully and harmoniously interact with complexity, diversity and sophistication that had similar foundations, goals if you like, whilst allowing for all the Cultural differences. There was a relentlessly reinforced common bond/goal throughout. In fact, that was what the simplistic, greedy, blood stained british war machine mistakenly saw, with their relentlessly conditioned superficial observations. It is well documented that they assumed a sameness, that all Indigenous Australians were one 'Culture'. Nothing could be further from the truth, despite the relentlessly reinforced common bond. So, yes, many 'groups', bound by a common goal. And as heinous as the Holocaust was, all those 'groups' of Indigenous Australians survived much, much worse than the even now, perpetuated Holocaust. It was/is a relentless Holocaust. Which makes the facts below very pertinent.

'Professor Yehuda studies the impact of traumatic experiences on war veterans, survivors of the Holocaust, of the September 11 attacks and their children.

She's found that children born after the war to Holocaust survivors with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) were more likely to develop PTSD or depression themselves, compared to other Jewish adults.

These children also shared epigenetic markers with their parents on a gene that made them more reactive to stress.'

We showed that increased paternal stress hormone changed the epigenome of the sperm, and changed the offspring'

The first Australians knew well before the british that people from other Cultures came and went, from other lands. Yet, their Cultural ideologies meant they had no need to constantly seek more. From outside. To constantly 'need' more, more, more to try and fill an endless void, ala the western, self perpetuating snowballing cultural ideology. Minds can think anything they like. The same mind can totally change, even in an instant. Yet, all humans have a 'mind'. The expression changes. So it influences further expression. Like wise DNA/genes. All humans have a certain DNA/gene make up. The expression changes, which influences further expression.

'http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2018/02/what-makes-us-human-isnt-just-ou...'

'Scientists have long suspected that what makes us human isn’t just our genes, but how we regulate them. A study from Charles Danko, assistant professor in Cornell’s College of Veterinary Medicine, supports this idea. Danko and co-author John Lis, professor in molecular biology and genetics, describe small differences between humans and chimps in regions of DNA called enhancers, which help turn on nearby genes.'

As I said, its just another glimpse. Many pieces. Again, nothing new though, other Cultures had grasped the scenario ages ago. We just like to claim everything. After we belt the shit out of them. british war mongers 'founded' Australia, even though they didn't. There was no one here , even though there was. Many can't stand the thought that maybe other Cultures had genius's too, who expressed their genius much better, better than they can grasp. So, as pointed out, despite supposedly all this 'millennia' that the west has been 'on the ball', 'just give us a bit longer... we will get there'... meanwhile, never mind the body count... not to mention the planet.

'Indo and Blowin might be disrespectful at times but they have a valid point. Genetics can be used to create division where none need exist.'

I see no 'validity' in that all. Scalpels can be used to save lives. Murderers can use them to slit throats if they like. Its not the scalpel that is the problem. That style of thinking is the old, 'women need to up their stand up game, and be better at ground and pound, so they don't get raped. They should cover up at all times, and never go out alone, or late at night, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.' No, rapists should learn how to think and behave better. Which would in turn beneficially influence their genetic expression. Its not a 'man' problem, its the way the manhood is expressed.

I see it like the sugar thing you raised. Again, likewise, just a snippet also. People knew all that years ago. Some chose to listen. The results were/are obvious. Still, just give 'em', whoever they are, a bit more time. Let 'em claim it. Doesn't effect the results at all.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 12:15pm

Fair comment Crypto. The only thing I would suggest you think about is that misinterpretations of genetic differences between populations can be used to justify all kinds of discrimination. It is not to say that these differences should not be investigated only that their complexity makes interpretation of the data so difficult the scientists themselves get into arguments. These are dangerous times. Alt-right trolls don't care about the reality, they will seize on any isolated factoid that appears to support their perverted world view.

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 12:19pm

Yes, agreed.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 12:28pm

In a nutshell :

Eugenics that is compatible with your personal theory = good

Eugenics that is not compatible with your personal theory = bad

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 12:49pm

Blowin, eugenics refers to the process of selective breeding when it is applied to humans. It attempts to remove certain characteristics from the population by sterilising or simply murdering people who possess them. It then encourages those with "desirable" characteristics to have more children so those characteristics become more common in the population. I cannot see any reference to that process in this discussion. If I have over-looked something, please point it out.

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truebluebasher commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 12:59pm

Westofthelake guessed right about Libs helping folk fill in pre poll votes.
The Ant reckons that 1st up independents are slack at Pre-poll but doesn't question why?
More to the point it's what The Ant keeps secret....Oz longest sweetest pre poll deal!

Wentworth has Oz greatest pre-poll advantage with longest running Lib incumbents.(Gold)

Speaking as a former campaigner/Scrutineer i'll slip swellnetonians thru the side door.

(Shock!) No need to be on Electoral Roll/OZ citizen or speak English to run AEC elections.
From Scrutineers to Vote Assist to How to Vote High Flyers only voters need be on AEC role.
That's right folks! Oz democracy is a sweet side earner for Al Qaeda Back Packerz. Shh!

I myself interjected about unsupervised bag of Votes to be counted or secured...(Neither!)
Anyhow the result was announced! A few tried to convince all that bag was done & dusted.
How can it be when we all arrived at start of count and stopped counting at same time.
I'm guessing just like you that this bag was counted by Local Star Chamber...I'm still alive!
Ok! Pretty shithouse Scrutineer was me. Upset the beehive! Still no harm in a nod 'n' a wink!

Nursing homes exaggerate Patient's health to bag Govt' Handouts. (Now seems common!)
Nursing Homes also run Election Buses & Mobile Vote Booths.(Vote 4 handouts?)
It may also surprise that these Nursing Homes freely access Electoral Roll for their Patients.
Patients are entitled to a vote assist and only need cross or tick Ballot (No signature at all)

Less so that nursing home staff is bent it's more about broadstroke nominee tomfoolery.
Wentworth incumbents fund/run all Nursing Homes in electorate as such> Draw first blood.
These are Lib's feeding grounds ..Clipboards/Poison Pens up the front of the Mini Bus.

Off to...Liberal Party Wentworth Pre Poll booths-
Hon Liberal PM Library "Chai Tea & Cucumber Sangerz!"
Hon Liberal PM SLSC's ( $2m a piece donation just this By-election alone) "Seafood platter!"
Hon Liberal Party Chamber of Commerce-Lib Party Shop Front Booths."Tea & Timeshare!"

Advantage being that only the incumbent can continue advertising beyond AEC forecourt.
Incumbent knows/flanks all legally available Advertising Space & removes all other Ads
Hon' Bus can come into Hon Booth & Hon' Air/con a cup of soup a seat all this and more.
Libs spruik Centre Directories/ Kidz Balloons(Take a LNP balloon off child on polling day?)
More LNP Wheelie Bins essential for AEC mess must be positioned near entries/booths.

Daily Front Page free Lib incumbent ADs see how to vote in Lib community service Guide
Independent's mid paper 1% postage stamp..("Likes cooking wants to change the world!")
News Poll draws Independents gaze to election special $1000 Postcard size ad in obituaries.

Council tip off Incumbents to every available legal cm of Roadside & Beachfront [VOTE#1]
Other candidates fight over Town's only other legal placard mount around back of Toilets.

YES/NO/WHATEVER... Kidz voted for dead grandparents & Landlords voted 100 x over!
Council street sweepers billed Govt for the whole soggy crisis...your vote counts!

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Blowin commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 1:28pm

It’s a bit out of context , maybe even an inappropriate term .

Regardless, you’ve got someone who ascribes positive and negative racial tendencies to DNA . Sounds like the basis for an entire new field of racial divisiveness to me.

Particularly at a time when the entirety of the forward thinking world is working towards dispelling the myth of intrinsic racial separatism.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 2:02pm

In fact you’ve got someone who ascribes positive and negative tendencies to race , full stop.

Pretty sure there is already a term to describe that line of thought.....

Attempting to dress the discussion as one of variance in DNA is racism on a molecular level . Nothing more , nothing less.

Clear as the nose on your face.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 2:30pm

So let's use the word "populations" instead, as strictly speaking races do not exist, but distinct populations do. I can't see a problem with accurate descriptions of the behaviour of populations. Ascribing differences in behaviour to DNA though rarely has any evidence to support it and certainly not at the population level. Crypto's suggestion therefore is a reasonable hypothesis but testing it would be impractical to the point of impossibility.

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Blowin commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 2:54pm

Prove that cultural differences can be ascribed to DNA and the concept of racial equality and therefore racism is obsolete.

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blindboy commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 3:39pm

Blowin, I stated that Crypto's position was a hypothesis, by definition an untested idea. In biological classification "race" has a particular meaning. Some species do have races as their populations have been isolated long enough to have evolved slightly different forms. This has not been the case with humans. Unfortunately "race" is still used by many people to describe populations. The absurdity of this can be seen by considering that all Africans are ascribed the same race when there is more genetic diversity in Africa than in the entire rest of the world. When words like "racism" and "racial equality" are used they simply refer to the common use of the word "race", not the scientific one.

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 4:43pm

Epigenetics = eugenics

Yes it’s an obvious, uneducated error this line of... well, bungling. Often employed by, as blinder highlighted, those of this leaning.

‘Alt-right trolls don't care about the reality, they will seize on any isolated factoid that appears to support their perverted world view.’

The experts in the field make it crystal clear though.

‘Eugenics and epigenetics are not interrelated. The term eugenics is derived from Greek and means 'well born' or 'good breeding'. Its concept was first formulated by Charles Darwin´s cousin Sir Francis Galton in 1865, although he didn't use the term eugenics until 1883. Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the supposed improvement of human hereditary qualities. Proposed means of doing so have included (but are not limited to) birth control, selective breeding, genetic engineering, racial hygiene, and even extermination.’

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 5:20pm

@Blindboy

Were you suggesting me and Blowin are alt right trolls?

"Alt-right trolls don't care about the reality, they will seize on any isolated factoid that appears to support their perverted world view."

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blindboy commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 5:32pm

Absolutely not Indo! My apologies for not making that clear.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 5:38pm

Ok cool

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 11:03pm

Back To Wentworth.
Main Reason for Wentworth pre polling swing was all to obvious.
Jewish Sabbath prevents Jews from Saturday Polling...(13% Jews)
AEC allows pre poll for religious reasons...

As for our trusted AEC guru's pre poll blindspot ?
Perhaps Bondi Ant sand bent his antenna.

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Monday, 22 Oct 2018 at 11:53pm

@ blinder, haha, nice apology, it is very... 'cool', I like it!!!

Yeh, happy days trubes!!!

Great question and answers. Dr Phelps outlines reasons for libs rejection... the red mis... obvious hanson trolls debacle for one.

“It’s OK to be white” is associated with white supremacist organisations and has been used to belittle claims of racism by non-white groups.

It was originally conceived by trolls on 4chan’s “politically incorrect” image board. Signs and cards bearing the catchphrase have popped up in all sorts of public places since, occasionally inducing outrage.'

Heartless, despicable treatment of children in detention. Good grief the very term says it all.

Numbskulls with heads in sand on climate change.

Libs antiquated, anti women representation... ABC of equality...

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 7:33am

"Heartless, despicable treatment of children in detention."

Yeah right just more BS from you vile mouth.

As of Oct 2017 there is about 100 refugees under 18 years of age on Nauru, only 22 of which live at the centre open 24/7 there is no refuges under 18 on Manus.

The majority of children live in the community with their parents no different to Nauru locals, according to SBS a few hundred have jobs about 30 run business.

Even then everything is provided free of charge housing, all bills paid for, food, medical care, education, even a spending allowance...

Yes every child is provided with schooling based on Australian curriculum even teachers from QLD, even adults have further education options.

According to refugee council about 100 children have been born in detention, since it started fair to assume although many have now been resettled a percentage would still be on Nauru

If you want to compare their situation to indigenous issues as you always do, it's pretty fair to say that many indigenous children in remote communities would be living under worst conditions, even large amounts of non indigenous children.

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 7:54am

Silly, stupid rant indo blown!!! You sound fried!!! Not cool at all!!!

The words weren’t mine, indoblown, they were the good Dr Phelps’s and the other people including her constituents supporting her!!! Brace yourself... women too!!!
Dr Phelps highlighted that the persistent message is getting through!!!

I left out that the campaign against woman belters and bumpers, and especially stalkers will be beefed up dramatically too!!!??

Thankfully your lot are being outed by the day!!!

Plus, even though he was crying Scummo said sorry for his churchy boyz an girls putrid behaviours. Back your mouth was the reply!!!

Imagine what they’ll say about Indigenous Australians now, as they copped and are copping way worse than even those sickening, heinous crimes.

‘Cool’ down... indoblown!!!??

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 8:18am

Yeah well that's no surprise, lies and BS from a politician.

You ever thought about getting into politics?

You seem to have the perfect personality and qualities, can spin complete BS and lies, great at attacking people and being negative, very good at avoiding questions and going off topic on your little rants and repeat them over and over, a focus on what is written in books etc instead of real life experience and reality of life.

Maybe try local politics first and work your way up I'm sure you could get to Canberra in no time.

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 8:37am

Indoblowup!!! You sound deflated!!! Stop your pauline 2 style blowup!!! It’s not ‘cool’!!! The little red mis... in a nutshell... again!!!!

“It’s OK to be white” is associated with white supremacist organisations and has been used to belittle claims of racism by non-white groups.

It was originally conceived by trolls on 4chan’s “politically incorrect” image board. Signs and cards bearing the catchphrase have popped up in all sorts of public places since, occasionally inducing outrage.'

Carry on with your squwarking blowup!!! You are deflating and not cool at all!!!

I have to go and train people... again... p’tooey!!! In a nutshell!!!

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 12:44pm

Crikey! And I thought I had a wild weekend in the real world!

Eugenics got a guernsey?! Really??

Oh, dear me.

I liked this exchange though.

"@Blindboy

Were you suggesting me and Blowin are alt right trolls?

"Alt-right trolls don't care about the reality, they will seize on any isolated factoid that appears to support their perverted world view."

"Absolutely not Indo! My apologies for not making that clear."

"Ok cool"

Funny stuff.

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 12:44pm

Anyway, who's seen the latest Surfing World (SW 400)?

It's a "best of" arrangement with some great articles and interviews on display from each decade.

A 70s interview with Simon Anderson in particular caught my eye. Very, very interesting. Anyone else familiar with it?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 6:43pm

Sorry Crypto I'm not interested in the “It’s OK to be white” thing, and i don't agree or support any of that BS in any way whatsoever.

As I've said before i believe all people should be treated equally in all ways including under the same law etc and treated on need not race, no matter, skin colour or eye colour or hair colour or ethnicity or race or whatever it is not important to me.

Unlike yourself who believes people should be treated differently based on ethnicity or history or what their ancestors did or didn't do etc.

I don't bang on and generalise on groups of people as being evil like you do about westerners and old uncle whitey.

Westofthelake's picture
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Westofthelake commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 7:55pm

Good read, not long, no paywall.

The experiment of government and business being hand-in-glove has failed.

"The voice of big business has shouted down that of the people. We are told that, because our lives have improved incrementally while their profits have soared exponentially, we should be thankful – completely ignoring the contribution improvements in labour productivity and technology have made to their increased wealth."

https://theaimn.com/the-experiment-of-government-and-business-being-hand...

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 7:46pm

Apology week!!! 'Nothin's working anymore' says indoblowup!!! And, cracks appearing in the the party!!! Major blowup... pauline too... the lil' red mis...!!!

Scummo had to do something, so he turned on the waterworks!!! About time, but better late than never. Now back your mouth was the reply... make it real!!! In a nutshell.

So, indoblowup, you've finally said sorry too, said that all should be treated equally... now back it!!!

But first... you said,

'I don't bang on and generalise on groups of people as being evil like you do about westerners and old uncle whitey.'

So, are you are saying the kkk are good then?

Considering scummo's well timed waterworks, for heinous, putrid acts that his beloved churches etc committed, including turning a blind eye and doing nothing, compared to the considerably, immeasurably worse, heinous past treatment of Indigenous Australians, you obviously support this:

'A new approach

Non-Indigenous Australians want to see Indigenous peoples “included” or “embraced” in the nation. But many don’t want to change their ways to accommodate Indigenous rights or difference. The flow is one way. We are taught that western civilisation is superior, and Indigenous difference is a deficit.

There is Indigenous leadership on these questions that is both visionary and practical. In 1987, Kevin Gilbert, a Wiradjuri man, produced a comprehensive critique of Australia’s claims to sovereignty, and the need to recognise the sovereignty of Indigenous peoples.

Irene Watson, a Tanganekald and Meintangk Boandik legal scholar and professor, points out that crises such as climate change are a call for a new relationship between Indigenous and non-Indigneous Australians and our environment. She shows how Indigenous moral and relational values provide a sound basis on which to build those new relationships.

Read more: Treaty debate will only strengthen Indigenous recognition process

Victoria Grieves, a Warraimaay historian, foresees a Republic of Australia based on the sovereignty of Aboriginal peoples. She says:

Australia could achieve absolute decolonisation and shared sovereignty and live up to the reputation we like to have, as a nation deeply concerned with human rights and social justice.

It is wrong-headed to think of “embracing” Indigenous peoples. Those with a western heritage must relinquish their arrogance, rewrite the distortions of their history, and place Indigenous interests at the forefront of social, economic and political concern.

We need to look beyond symbols to restitution: compensation, reparations and resource sharing. Indigenous peoples, through seeking a treaty, invite us to share in building an honourable future. Surely we can agree that Australia is worth it.'

And, what are your answers to these pertinent questions?

Of genuine interest, what have you got against say, what was outlined in the Uluru Statement from the Heart?

What are your objections to say, Australia becoming a Republic? And a subsequent change of national symbols: flag, anthem, day of celebration?

With all that potted Irish stuff you mentioned before, I'd assumed you'd be all for a Republic? The Irish Catholics in particular were still copping it hard at the start of the last century here in Australia, even post-war.

And the Irish during the early days of the NSW colony?

https://redflag.org.au/node/5651'

All legitimate questions if you are truly interested in something better.'

You said indoblowup,

'I don't bang on and generalise on groups of people'

Yet this famous piece of your 'work', is ultimate stereotyping and racism... among other undesirable things.

'BTW. i saw a women at the market in Dandenong the other day with a burqua or maybe it was a Niqab it was kind of in-between couldn't see her face though, i was waiting for my missus so did a bit of people watching with her, to be honest she didn't look oppressed like the full black robe ones I've seen in Indonesia that look like servants of the men, actually looked the opposite in this case she had her little middle eastern guy following her around and from the body language she looked like she was wearing the pants so to speak.

It was quite crowded and was thinking maybe i will accidentally go bump into her and say sorry etc and see if she will interact with me and see the reaction of her husband, but by that time my missus had finished.'

Which makes you sound like this... again... and again... in a nutshell!!

All in all, blinder's apology is well and truly leading the way, indoblownup!!!

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 8:00pm

"Im not that political savy, but..."

"I don't follow it and I'm not that academic or savy with politics, but..."

But, but, but...

"...it just makes you roll your eyes and take a deep breath and think please guys you are just destroying any credibility or validity to any argument you might have."

Indeed.

I focus's picture
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I focus commented Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018 at 8:26pm

Just love 1st Dog on the Moon nails it repeatedly

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/22/wentworth-and-the-...

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Horas commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:56am

Socialism/communism appeals to those obsessed with envy and jealousy of anyone and everyone who has done better than them at anything.It appeals to those with no worthwhile skills and no intention of getting any.Every socialist/communist/Marxist I've ever met,and I 've met plenty,always claim to have the answer to everything-and that answer is always to take from those who produce and give it to those who don't while they ,of course ,give the orders and tell everyone how to live.They believe the utterly foolish idea that the highly skilled,the inventive ,the entrepreneurs ,the movers shakers of society will work just as hard for nothing but altruism as they do for themselves.Socialists have no understanding of human nature at all,no understanding of economics and not the slightest idea how anything works.If you have a look through the great socialist leaders from Lenin onwards,few if any of them ever had a job that produced anything other than and endless stream of words .All of them lived like Princes on the backs of the people they claimed to champion.Plenty of useful idiots out there.And without terror,concentration camps and firing squads,no one does anything and nothing gets done.There have been many phrophetic books written about socialism/communism:Animal farm,1984,Darkness at noon,but perhaps the best is Ayn Rands "Atlas Shrugged "wherein she describes the logical conclusion to the sort of policies being pushed by the wests collective 'left' today.Oh yeh,while I'm here a question for CryptoKOOK. What do your two favourite victim groups,aboriginals and Muslims ,have in common?Both 'cultures ' excel in woman bashing and child abuse.No mention of this in your noble savage rants.Kamu seorang yang sangat sombong dan gila juga.Tai Sama Kamu dan kamu babi yang tidak punya otak.FUCKWIT.

Horas

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 2:53am

Westofthelake thanks for AIM article ...I owe you one...(LNP Welfare Shares get the red card)

https://theaimn.com/lnp-welfare-card-true-facts-exposed-corruption-disgu...

Crpyto's Red Flag...Here the Qld Govt had land zoning as per race.
Germans got shitty Mangroves if they did that whole Black Mission thang.
( Note all German's Sugar Trams)
Irish + Chinese mostly got shut out ended up camping & working on Railways.
Chinese were good on explosives for tunnels also got first dibs on any Gold pockets.
Only the Brits could acquire or be given the finer pastures.(Brits screwed everyone)

Ifocus provides the laughs...nice one...great links swillnutonians.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 5:45am

What’s what - There should be a ceiling on the maximum amount of tax that any individual is required to pay.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 6:33am

Horas, your little rant exposes not only your profound ignorance but also deep seated prejudice. It is usually a waste of time arguing with those who are both ignorant and prejudiced but to help with the probably impossible ask of your further education you might like to explain how the post-war reconstruction of Europe was so successful, when the policies of every government involved would now be described as socialist.

Blowin, there are already numerous ways for those on high incomes to minimise their tax and many pay less than your average PAYE worker. We really don't need to encourage them any further.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 7:47am

@Factum

Thank you for another cut and paste quote, and mixing my quotes up so out of context.

One question while i have your attention, you were Shanter but also Talking turkey ya?

Two profiles were active at the same time then stopped posting at pretty much the same time,# all three profiles seem to have similarities in many ways, writing stye, attacking style, same in what they say or do not say, type of post they comment on, even bands liked, even the profile pics are kind of similar in being action type symbols, arrows or thumbs up etc

Coincidence?....Maybe, maybe not, I've always thought they are the same person so i guess no harm in asking you straight up.

Anyone interested in my theory can check out the first page of the thread, where both post.

# I think you think you were kicked off the forum and i swear you were, but Stunet says he didn't kick you off here and i can't find the incident where i thought it happened, but i really can't be bothered digging through pages of post like some.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 7:50am

Horas i agree with much of your post but not the bit on bashing women.

BTW. i think i might kind of know you, did you have to cancel a trip in Indonesia to some islands recently? (were going to fly in)

CryptoKnight's picture
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CryptoKnight commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 8:38am

I’ve got a question for you ho...as, what’s your blabbering got to do with the price of eggs?

Fuck off chickenshit.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 9:44am

Come on , BB.

No need to derail the question with allusions of tax evasion or even discussions of the morality of tax minimisation.

Admit it . Irrespective of any individual’s wealth , there should be a point at which they’ve paid enough. Where you think that point may be and where I think it is being a seperate conversation.

But there should definitely be a ceiling on how much any one person is required to contribute to the society , don’t you think ?

For instance: If an average person was looking to invest in the initial beginnings of a company that benefits of community - ie a biotechnology company - and that company is successful in treating a disease and therefore becomes highly valuable, then the investor could make a lot of money .

Say they made $10M off of a $50K investment after 5 years then they would potentially be paying over $2M tax in a single lump sum.

This is a lot of money for the average person to lose after taking such a large risk and contributing to the society. Irrespective of what they’ve made - don’t let jealousy cloud your opinion please.

Maybe a certain percentage of the average tax bill would be sufficient?

In 2014 the average Aussie tax bill was $17500 US . Maybe ten times this amount ?

$175,000 US / year .

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 10:22am

Its been a big 24 hours in the Swellnet Emporium.

@Indo gets all defensive at the suggestion he belongs to some alt-right group, perhaps a reasonable question given his pet subjects here run close to the wind.
@Indo posts a link to a pay-walled Murdoch rag, not for the first time, and then offers up some lame denial / excuse why he could see it but no-one else can.
@Horas offers up a simplistic opinion linking communism, socialism and the left that jumps around in logic more than a mob of hemmed kangaroos and ends it with a selective rant about muslims and aboriginals.
@Indo accuses Factum of changing his account name but the question to reasonably ask is just how many accounts does @Indo simultaneously use here?
Indo who often says he knows little about politics agrees with Horas' comments linking communism, socialism and the left.

In the meantime

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 11:18am

Blowin, let's leave theoretical worlds to fabulists, fantasists, novelists and scriptwriters. In the real world no-one is actually going to pay tax like that so your rule would be completely irrelevant.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 11:31am

Why wouldn’t someone pay tax like that ?

If you were a punter with faith who laid down $50K on Sirius resources at the start of 2013 you could have sold for over $177M during the same year.

I person in that position isn’t adept at tax minimisation.

But that is extreme.

What about those who currently pay a couple of million tax after deductions, you don’t think that they are paying more than their share ?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 11:37am

If you’d bought $50000 worth of Biotron shares a few of weeks ago you could have made $1.125M . That’s a lot of tax to pay - over $500K - for a one off investment in an Australian company that is taking massive steps in the fight against HIV and potentially bringing in massive profits for the nation’s economy.

This is not fantasy . It’s a regular occurrence.

When is too much , too much ?

Why do you always assume people making money are scoundrels ?

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:02pm

I don't but you do tend to put words in my mouth. If someone with large investments chooses not to use a tax minimisation scheme, that is praiseworthy. Beyond that, no I don't see the need for an arbitrary limit on personal taxation. My main reason for that is no-one makes large amounts of money by their own efforts. They either depend on the skills and labour of others or on the movement of large amounts of capital. They may take risks, but that is not the same thing.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:16pm

Why don’t you classify risk taking as worthy ?

Virtually every advance which has benefited humanity have involved risk of some description.

What is the differential between risk and labour anyway ? Nearly all money amongst average Australians is earned through labour . If someone was to risk that money on something that would benefit not only the nation , but humanity, why should they be penalised with excessive taxation ?

Why would you say that someone who has made a large amount of money wouldn’t pay large amounts of tax ....very untrue.

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:17pm

Blowin. I think you'll need to describe that it's 'not fantasy' to the average 9-5 because he's dying to throw his spare 50k at something that might return 0.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:20pm

@Blowin,

I don't have too much to say about it, however one of the major problems facing Australia, and which America is going through now, is a reduced sense of commonality. The various classes are splitting further apart, and unlike say the 70s or 80s, politicians cant speak for whole swathes of society. There's a reduced sense of, for want of a better word, 'Australianness'. The country is not united.

Not that we ever truly were, there's always been ways to split people (gentry and workers etc) but it's becoming less and less workable; we could no longer rally behind pan-Australia projects (such as the Accord), while the intangible qualities of our people (the fair go for instance) have vanished, and it worries me the direction it's all going.

And one of the core drivers in this growing divide is inequality of wealth. What you're proposing will only accelerate inequality so I cant subscribe to it, though I also have no answer for how to kerb it.

Kinda odd how one week you're a working class battler, the next arguing tax minimisation.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:25pm

People do it all the time Happy.

I’m no t saying it’s right or wrong , wise or stupid . But it happens and people do make lots of money through risk. Why should they be taxed so heavily.

In different times , if someone was to ingest an unknown plant to test for possible effects or benefits, they wouldn’t be treated with disdain by the community if the plant had proved beneficial. Which is a similar summation of risk . Particularly in instances such as you describe where the person involved is taking a massive chance with a sum of money that is extremely large for them to risk.

But it’s not just about sharemarkets.

What about someone who starts a massive company from scratch and it brings in momentous export dollars for our nation to redistribute as welfare , health and education for everyone?

Even after deductions,some people may need to pay millions of dollars in tax.

Don’t you think that there should be an upper limit on the demand that the government can place on an individual ?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:38pm

Stu - When you say tax minimisation there’s a certain odiferousness about it .

There’s nothing untoward with thinking that a tax bill of several million dollars for an individual is too onerous.

As for the working class battler rising to wealth , nothing untoward about that either. Our society should highly regard diligence , toil , risk and inventiveness. And Monetary reward is one manner in which this regard should be displayed.

Wouldn’t you be stoked if one of your kids worked a couple of jobs to put themselves through uni , then went on to achieve an amazing breakthrough for humanity that saw him generate large amounts of wealth ? Why should the government have endless access to this wealth when it’s very , very possible that he could spend it with more benefit to society than they would through his ability to create opportunities or even perhaps his altruism ?

Sure , pay your due to the nation. But your due should not be an open ended ticket for government to plunder. Upper limits are needed.

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:41pm

Blowing I think you have lost the plot on simplified concepts to do with tax.

Most capital invested is claimable against future profits.

Windfall profits incurs tax on a capital gain but most can find methods of reducing running it through company's/trusts.

If you made $10 mil in profit wouldn't you hire a decent accountant to sort the tax?

simba's picture
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simba commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:44pm

Blowin sounds like you made a killing on Biotron and half your luck if you did.!

simba

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CryptoKnight commented Wednesday, 24 Oct 2018 at 12:51pm

Risk? Standing on a jackhammer your whole life fixing roads for contractors who had to cut everything to the bone to win tenders? Laboring your whole life in factories so people can shift money around? Working graveyard shifts as an accident and emergency worker, nurse, cop, security guard. Or grave yard 12 hour shifts in a factory as a contract worker? Studying for years in any field, even the health field, accumulating huge debts, and finding no jobs, and contracts with no security. Because maybe you aren’t personable, assertive, or entrepreneurial enough, or just didn’t have the right contacts. Finding out cures are available, but out of your price range, having worked your guts out for fuck all? That is the ‘lot’ of many Australians.

The ‘ system’ relies on people doing shit for peanuts. Always has. Otherwise, build your own car, computer, house whatever from the bottom up.

I don’t know the answer either. I don’t know how to make this phone ad infinitum too. Some one does. Someone will know how to create a better system that gives equal worth to all parts, and provides fulfilling, healthy lives to all. If we made it a priority.