Basque Wavegarden Project Has Far-Reaching Implications

Stu Nettle picture
Stu Nettle (stunet)
Surfpolitik

Since December 2016 when Kelly Slater posted his big reveal video, the dialogue around wavepools has shifted from a fever dream fantasy, to a debate more grounded in reality. Every surfer is smitten by the sight of perfect waves, but as they became available at a push of a button, other issues presented themselves. Environmental issues, social ones too, and even questions of culture for those concerned with our collective values and how wavepools may alter them.

Beginning in 2019, the company Boardriders - who own Quiksilver, Billabong, RVCA, and Roxy - began the process of lobbying local council to build a wavepool near their Saint-Jean-de-Luz headquarters, just two minutes from the Basque coast. Boardriders chose to use Wavegarden technology, which makes sense as Wavegarden’s founder is Basque surfer Josema Odriozola, and the company has a test pool at Aizarnazabal, just an hour’s drive south in the Basque mountains.

Surfing culture can be baffling to the non-surfer. What seems a carefree and welcoming activity from the outside contains a much more nuanced set of rules and order that catches newcomers unaware and confounds those that don’t surf at all. Wavepools are a good example of this. After all, what surfer wouldn’t want more waves? To a non-surfer it would seem a laydown misere.

So you can imagine the confusion of the eggheads at City Council, when surfers - the people supposedly reaping the benefits - led a revolt against the wavepool at Saint-Jean-de-Luz. Faced with 65,000 signatories, including locals but also luminaries such as Dr Tony Butt and Greg Long, the company backed down and the wavepool project came to nothing.

Part of the opposition’s campaign was a point form list of reasons to stop the wavepool - called ‘The 24 Reasons’. To date, most objections to wavepools have been what you’d term ‘practicalities’ - think, environmental considerations such as land use, energy use, and water use. ‘The 24 Reasons’ listed those objections, however it also included theoretical objections; things that are harder to quantify but nonetheless form a basis for opinion.

‘Artificialisation of surfing’ was one such objection - using surfing’s founding stories of communion with nature to sell a project that is ostensibly anti-nature. Another objection is one that gets floated in any comment thread on wavepools but gets argued vehemently in either direction: that wavepools will add to the load on surrounding surf spots. In short, that wavepools create more surfers.

In opposing this...that is, arguing that wavepools do create new surfers, and hence add to the total load, the campaigners cited work by German mathematician Dietrich Braess who showed that building more roads didn’t lessen the traffic on existing ones. Braess said there was a ‘suction effect’ that simply encouraged more motor vehicle use on both new and old roads. This dynamic, argued the campaigners, is also analogous to surfers. More venues will simply mean more surfers.

There were other objections that’d fall into the theoretical camp, such as the claim that the pool can train surfers for competition. In time, and should enough pools be built, this theory will be tested, but for now it exists in the realm of ideas. Whatever point was most compelling, it’s enough to know that the Saint-Jean-de-Luz project was halted. However, this year another Wavegarden was floated and the old reasons for opposing a pool floated to the surface again.

When surfers at San Sebastian got wind of the planned pool near their town they duplicated the campaign that had been so successful for the surfers thirty kilometres to the north. They established a group - ‘Antondegi Berdea. Olatuak Itsasoan’ which translates as ‘Antondegi Green. The Waves in the Sea’ - they reached beyond surf media, and created their own point form opposition to the pool - ‘15 Reasons Surfers Say No’.

The 15 Reasons includes its own specific practical objections pertaining to land use - the proposed site at Antondegi is a green corridor - plus wider environmental objections about energy use and climate change, and also theoretical objections that expand upon Braess’ ‘suction effect’ citing work on fish farms that, “far from saving the wild fish populations has merely stimulated demand for wild fish”.

Swellnet spoke to Iñigo Fernandez Ostolaza, one of the campaign organisers, who said the pool will stimulate demand for surfing. “Zurriola beach in San Sebastian is probably the most crowded beach in Europe,” said Ostolaza, “and we are convinced that this wave pool will increase the overcrowding.”

This graphic from Surfrider Europe shows the project's proximity to the coast

Another similarity to Saint-Jean-de-Luz is that the general populace in San Sebastian are, according to Ostolaza, “very surprised to see that a group of surfers - many from different beaches and who do not know each other - are taking a stand against a project that in theory is aimed at them.”

Last week the ELA - the Basque trade union, representing 100,000 union workers - rejected the wavepool due to environmental considerations and also the absurdity, it says, of occupying six hectares of natural land in a space located "just four kilometres from the sea", concluding with the point that "not even surfers support it”.

Though their campaign has largely been aimed at the mainstream, Ostolaza is aghast that the surf media has largely dodged the debate. “We believe that our cause is a good example to make the global surfing community reflect on the suitability of building wave pools next to coasts with waves,” says Ostolaza, adding. “Apart from the environmental reasons, we also put surfing arguments on the table.” These theoretical issues are, he thinks, what surfers should be concerning themselves with.

This is where the threat lies to Wavegarden: Community action has already halted one project, and pressure is again rising at another site. If this mode of resistance works it could be copied by activist groups elsewhere and stymie growth along the coastal margins.

In reply to ‘Antondegi Berdea. Olatuak Itsasoan’, Wavegarden this week issued their own point form reply, ‘11 Key Aspects of the Wavegarden San Sebastian Project’. It's not online but Swellnet was sent a PDF version. In it, they counter all the accusations of environmental recklessness, including energy use (it’ll run on solar), water use (they’ll supply their own water), and industrialisation (the wavepool is less harmful than other projects slated for the site), while also deflecting accusations of elitism and relying on public subsidies.

That leaves them to address the unproven theoretical assumptions, which they do with some measure of trepidation: “...it is a reality that there are not enough waves for all San Sebastian...and it is also true that a Wavegarden will not alleviate crowding at beaches.” No mention about encouraging new surfers. Perhaps they don’t need to, as in two days time surfing will make its Olympic debut with an audience of three billion people watching.

In the five years since Kelly Slater revealed his pool, the surfing community has shifted from a common optimism about wavepools into polarised camps. There will always be environmental objections to any new land use - which most pools are - however Basque surfers are arguing the case that wavepools also harm the amenity of existing surfers. It’s a local struggle. Local surfers debating that which affects them. However with one win on the board and another in the balance, the ramifications could likely be felt far from the Basque Country.

Comments

Trentslatterphoto's picture
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Trentslatterphoto Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 2:20pm

The oceans cover 71% (and rising) of the Earth's surface and contain 97% of the Earth's water so if you cant find a wave your probably in the wrong location.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 2:51pm

Great story, Stu. I had no idea that this was going down. Well done to the Basque surfers.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:01pm

Hello Swellnet
Love your work Stu and Craig !
Have surfed for 45 plus years and live in Melb . Learnt to surf at New Brighton NSW and it took me months to stand up and cut across a wave . As you would know we have Wavegarden here and had 3 goes with limited success . Waves forming up 2 meters away and popping up 1 meter away is hard to get used to . Great way to get surf fit .
I disagree with anyone banning Wave Pools . They are a wonderful resource to help anyone to learn to surf . Many people are unable to get to the beach every w/e for months to learn and then the years to get proficient and get hooked on the sport . As we all know surfing is a fantastic sport for fitness and mental wellbeing and everyone should imo be given the tools to join .
65000 signatures were not all from surfers I am sure . A trade union complaint haha . Our ALP and unions are against jobs . CO2 causing Global warming / cooling , sorry climate change ( which has always happened ) bullsh.. . Being only 400 parts per million ie .004% of the earths gases haha again .
Whenever I go back to N.B. I see no difference in 50 years so see no rising sea levels . If surf pools create more crowds bad luck ! If cars or computers have got relatively cheaper and caused more congestion again bad luck . I encourage more people to surf and wave pools help this . I would not like them built in an old growth forest , in a river or some other SPECIAL area but anywhere else YES .

Permafrost's picture
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Permafrost Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:41pm

They are a wonderful resource to help anyone to learn to surf . Many people are unable to get to the beach every w/e for months to learn and then the years to get proficient and get hooked on the sport...

this is the exact reason we should oppose wave pools (its already crowded AF)

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:55pm

If I had that selfish view I would not have taught my kids to surf .

scroty's picture
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scroty Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 12:54pm

Yeah, no-one should be allowed to teach their kids. We should ban all surf school businesses and close all board riders clubs while we are at it. And what about all surfing comps, some of them get televised which may lead to some non-surfers taking it up. How else can we possibly save the waves for ourselves and stop all those "others" from taking them from us?
I will be exclusively surfing on moonless nights from now on so no-one can see me, I suggest everyone with the same attitude to that above should start doing so as well.

Patrick's picture
Patrick's picture
Patrick Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:48pm

There's actually some good ideas there!

bluediamond's picture
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bluediamond Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:47pm

I disagree with the 'badluck' sentiments on more crowding. If no pools means less crowds, then is that good luck? I can live with that! :)

Surfalot67's picture
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Surfalot67 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:10am

Hutchy - you sound like a tool. An anti union RWNJ that also wants to dabble in Sky News climate change denial. Imagine wanting a pool on a farm next to Bells/Winki. Good luck getting that one through the Torquay locals!!! I think I can hear Alan Jones calling you mate.....

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:37am

Antivaccxa?

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 10:47am

“ Great way to get surf fit.”
Nah, hardly any paddling, basically no duck diving, any paddling that is done is a slow methodical paddle back in to position. No sprinting to get out the way of a clean up set.

scottishsponger's picture
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scottishsponger Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 10:20am

Your comment is overflowing with nonsense. Virtually every point you make is demonstrably false but that’s unsurprisingly from someone who openly calls themselves a “Melbourne surfer”. This is the greatest oxymoron and has led to the destruction of the surf coast and the fabric of the coastal towns along it. It’s no surprise that you’re an anthropogenic climate change denier as well. If you love the artificial waves of URBN Surf so much, why do you ever bother surfing anywhere else?

Inigo Fernandez Ostolaza's picture
Inigo Fernandez Ostolaza's picture
Inigo Fernandez... Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:29pm

They want to build the wavepool in a natural habitat that is part of San Sebastian’s green belt and
home to foxes, badgers, genets, and squirrels. A place that provides food, rest and
nesting for 109 species of birds like the Red Kite (in danger of extinction)...

Please sign here: www.change.org/antondegiberdea

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:41pm

Thanks Inigo . That sounds like a special place to me so stupid to chose that location . If one was build in the farm land near Bell/Winki I see no problem .

wallpaper's picture
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wallpaper Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 6:13pm

so in that case the ALP and unions wouldn't be against jobs?

Inigo Fernandez Ostolaza's picture
Inigo Fernandez Ostolaza's picture
Inigo Fernandez... Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 6:53pm

The company is not going to create new jobs, it only intends to "move" its facility from Aizarnazabal to San Sebastian.

In addition, here the unions have also begun to take into account environmental arguments and defend an ecological transition, so they understand that this project in San Sebastian will have hugely negative environmental impact: the destruction of a natural habitat, and a retrograde step in energy transmission.

In the 21st century we should be studying how to harness the power of natural waves,
not how to create artificial waves (in an area with abundant natural waves) by
throwing electrical energy and local water resources at them.

wallpaper's picture
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wallpaper Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 7:48pm

Sorry Inigo. All the best to you. My comment was in response to that confused 'hutchy 19' meathead who is either a paid shill for the Murdoch/conservative alliance, or has shit for brains - and most likely the latter - had nothing to do with you or Spain or the situation there.

Surfalot67's picture
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Surfalot67 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:11am

Nailed it WP. What a fucktard.

Ellen's clam's picture
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Ellen's clam Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 11:13am

A paid Murdoch shill who comes on Swellnet to aimlessly gripe about one half of the treacherous duopoly running the country....in the comments about a Spanish wave pool...LOL.

Shit for brains might be the correct answer.

guysoceanharmonics's picture
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guysoceanharmonics Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 9:30am

What is natural about driving a car or flying in a plane or watching TV, the photo of the proposed surfing sports park looks great, surfing is a sport that has the same rights as any other sport. Is there a golf course in that area and if so how many acres of land were obliterated so the community could simply hit a little white plastic ball. Have you organised a protest against all the other infrastructure in the photo, as clearly it has removed forrest and habitat. I surf and subsequently I use a toxic surfboard, with a toxic leg rope, with toxic fins, with a toxic deck grip, a toxic wetsuit/boardshorts/hat, I drove to the surf on a bitumen road on what was once an ancient forrest using a car spewing out hydrocarbons, if you really believe in the environment then don't surf.

Queenyenfuego's picture
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Queenyenfuego Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 9:51pm

Right on Iñigo. Signed.

scottishsponger's picture
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scottishsponger Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 10:23am

Thanks Inigo, signed

Dx3's picture
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Dx3 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 4:30pm

Now the tech is there to build them, wave pools have a place in my view. That place to build them isn't within a couple of km's of well known ocean surf spots though, so building it beside the basque coast or world renowned surf spots in Aus wouldn't make any sense. Near cities without surf does make sense.

Island Bay's picture
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Island Bay Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 5:21pm

Bravo!

For a Euro transplant it's very nice to see this approach, as opposed to the usual 'pragmatic' one.

Mooligum's picture
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Mooligum Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 5:35pm

I wonder how wave pools will teach the hardest part of surfing.Picking the right wave and understanding the ocean to be at the right place at the right time to catch the best wave.Or am I being.too old fashioned and don't understand the motivations of wave poolers.

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 5:40pm

The story surprised me.

Build a wave pool at Tullamarine - net positive I would say as it is sort of neutral territory and the balance between keeping surfers away from the surf coast and generating new crowds might balance each other out.

Build one an Angourie - not so good - it would have a major spill over effect to local surf if it was a really good one that acted as a drawcard to the area.

Build one on the Gold Coast - maybe sort of balanced again.

Trying to cast my mind into the future and see where it is going leaves me still unsure. There are nightmare scenarios for some well known point break type spots if China became surf mad and they all put surfing certain breaks on the Chinese surfer bucket list.

Two million new China surfers all say "Must surf with Occy at Snapper!" each year!!!!!!!!!

However, other scenarios might be pretty benign.

The pool to ocean transition is harder skill wise and psychologically than it looks. People might just get bored in the pool and put surfing in the been there done that box and go back to video games, netflix and instagram selfies. Pools may go bust. Surfing is fun but not that amazing 90% of the time.

I never thought the surfing lifestyle would get so complicated!

tango's picture
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tango Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 8:58pm

They'd only need to actually surf with him and be dropped in on once or twice to realise it ain't what its cracked up to be.....

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 10:49am

Hahah

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 5:42pm

Running on solar is a red herring, unless they have their own solar plant on site.

Otherwise, they are purchasing solar power - which could be used to power homes and other more essential uses.

it's a still a net negative as far as energy usage goes.

And they will supply their own water?

from where? you can't just make water.

reusing industrial water?

that could be used for ag or other better uses.

Industrialisation? The tub is better than other uses for the site.
Thats incredibly poor logic.

If its currently green space then sure, a tub might be better than a steelworks, but it's still worse than clearing the habitat to make artificial waves.

It's good to see the Basque surfers standing up for surfing in the ocean.
Solidarity.

Pops's picture
Pops's picture
Pops Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 9:32am

Nailed it.

Leebo20's picture
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Leebo20 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:57pm

Rather have a wave pool than more apartments FR.
Seems to be the limit of imagination of most city planning these day...built more apartments and to poor standards

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 6:16pm

Fingers crossed that pool tech advances so rapidly that pool surfers find the ocean waves too fickle, imperfect and dangerous. I reckon individually owned private transport will be nixed in the future and goose chasing waves up and down the coast will be viewed as a prohibitively expensive and selfish folly. Shitty generic Pools will be for the poor and the ocean will be for the rich.

Virtual and altered reality will hopefully claim the majority of future humans and even the physical effort to stand up and dance on a spoon served pool wave will be too much effort.

Hutchy 19 and the Pool Eggs can have their little fascist piss ponds. No running, no jumping,no swearing in the piss pond! This means YOU!

“Excuse me, can I get a tube please sir? “ ——- Computer says NO!

Spuddups's picture
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Spuddups Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 6:22pm

You're an ideas man Blowin.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 8:42pm

A slight change to one of your sentences Blowin . The shitty generic pools will be for the poor to help them surf in the ocean and make them rich . It you who says NO - not your computer . Are always so such a 'piss pond " with anyone who has a different opinion to yourself ?

Huggy's picture
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Huggy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 1:03pm

@blowin
“Excuse me can I get a tube please sir?”
Wallet says yes if it’s your turn, and if you block me you get sent in while the whole lineup growls at you.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:25pm

Be it Japs paying Balinese to shepherd them in a crowd , Rich seppoes privatising a beach or piss pond eggs floating in line like a sequence of shit nuggets from an ocean outfall, the sentiment is the same - Buying waves is for gronks.

Huggy's picture
Huggy's picture
Huggy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 5:02pm

The pool proves money can buy courtesy, but you don’t have to be rich to enjoy it from time to time. I can’t afford a membership, but like going because unlike in the Ocean, every gronk gets along and shows courtesy and respect. No need for name calling or threats.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 7:14pm

"Ostolaza is aghast that the surf media has largely dodged the debate."

He's right. I went looking for it and couldn't find anything.

You'd think surfers standing up against wave pool manufacturers would be a huge story.

lost's picture
lost's picture
lost Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 7:41pm

I’m really struggling with the idea that this many surfers are really against a wave pool. I suspect most of those signatories are not regular surfers. By all means boycott the place if it’s not for you but stopping others the opportunity enjoy it ?

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 8:49pm

I get it. Look at that Coolum abortion. Unnecessary waste of resources heaped on undeveloped land . It’s a Shit show from go to whoa.

Surf Nerd's picture
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Surf Nerd Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 7:47pm

In just a few decades surfers [the majority] have made a transition from long haired fringe dwelling, nature loving hippies into bald, concrete loving, competitive sports jocks. Well done us!!!! It's getting ugly folks.

Troppo's picture
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Troppo Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 8:22pm

I Gotta say - I just don't get the negativity toward this and other wave pools!
How is a wave pool different to any other theme park?
Do you avoid Seaworld or Movie World or Disneyland because of environmental issues?
Didn't think so!
Seaworld is viewed as environmentally positive, despite its roller coasters, monorail and other rides.
Me and my kids don't go to Movieworld (or Disneyland or any other theme park) because it replaces nature, or because it is the most environmentally sound option! We go cause it is fun. We enjoy it. The thousands of other families there on the day also seem to enjoy it.
Do we all consider how much energy is consumed before we get on a roller coaster? What sort of dickhead does that?
Do we calculate how much water is evaporated from the water entertainment areas of seaworld when we enjoy a day there? Loser!!!
Yet a water park that involves riding waves brings out the moron lowest common denominator. Lets dig out all the negatives of this place!!!
Wave pools are the future, they have to be.
There are a few awesome places to live that have consistent waves and good weather year round. But the majority of us here on Swellnet do not live in such a place. We have to consider swell, temperature, wind etc.
I've met many Hawaiians in Indo during the Hawaii off season. I used to ask the why they are in indo - they live in surf paradise- they also say there is no consistency to the surf where they live.
The number of good days per year is measurable. And for most of us it isn't greater than 50%.
There is more going on with these guys in Spain.
I reckon Australia can accommodate at least twenty more wave pools.
Let the supply and demand relationship dictate how many Wavepools is the right amount.
Keep a high environmental standing and don't put them in places where the natural wildlife will suffer. But if Investors want to put wavepools in, and they have done their due dilligence, then go for it.

Surf Nerd's picture
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Surf Nerd Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 9:41pm

Clive Palmer?

lilas's picture
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lilas Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 5:17am

Thanks for saving me having to write exactly the same thing.
Such hypocrisy from surfers towards wave-pools that it's almost unfathomable. Almost everything we do in our modern life Fucks over nature. So if we stop wave pools we stop cars, toxic surfboards, mobile phones, this forum, surf cams, surf forecasts,etc

I feel the wave pool subject touches a raw nerve in so many people.
It really seems like people feel their entire Surfing existence is being questioned by a wave-pool. If you are a true surfer, then you have already made your pact with the ocean, and NOTHING could ever change, or lessen that.
If Surfers really loved nature then this forum would be filled with conversations about replanting all the trees we removed from our headlands and beaches over the years. That's going to make a bigger difference to the environment than complaining about wave pools.

stanfrance's picture
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stanfrance Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 7:18am

Please explain how Seaworld is environmentally positive

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:41am

Like that phrase ‘due diligence’ can be used for all sorts of sins.

stanfrance's picture
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stanfrance Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 10:54am

Agreed

guysoceanharmonics's picture
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guysoceanharmonics Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 9:19am

The hypocrisy from protesters is bizarre at minimum, so when protesters get on a plane to fly thousands of kilometres to surf at other locations, do they ever consider the environmental impact of spewing pollutants all over the ocean and planet, no because whatever they do is simply ok. The basis of the protest as I read it is that the protesters simply don't want anybody else to surf because they surf and don't want any further crowding, because they never added to the crowds because whatever a protester does is ok, but not ok for anybody else. The protesters talk about the farmlands, farms are produced from bulldozing/burning down thousands of acres of forrest to deliver food conveniently to the protesters, same as bulldozing 100's of acres of forrest for a golf course so people can hit a little white ball, same goes for every other sport that we as a community enjoy. What protesters cannot see is that the community builds social infrastructure to enjoy life, a wave park is a sports field for surfing and it has the same rights as every other sport. I support wave parks as where I live and others do there is limited surf for the majority of the year. When you hear of a protest, stop for a moment and consider, what is really behind the protest, does it make sense, because this protest does not.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 11:42am

makes perfect sense to me and at least 65000 other people.

Wave park is not social infrastructure. It's a private facility designed to generate a profit selling waves.

If wave parks were like skateparks or footy fields built and maintained by govts as not-for-profit social infrastructure it would be a very different conversation.

$90/hr is hardly social infrastructure.

Where abouts do you live - rough region?

guysoceanharmonics's picture
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guysoceanharmonics Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 12:28pm

All levels of government want private enterprise to build sporting/social infrastructure to limit the impact on taxpayers. I live in Perth Western Australia and have surfed for around 50 years and still ride a short board (Hypto Krypto 6' for example) Perth has limited surf for around 80% of the year. Comparing costs and social infrastructure: a local private golf course is $4000 per year (including initial nomination, lessons around $100 or more per hour) local Yacht Club $1200 per year just to join, then of course the cost of owning/maintaining boat/yacht in pen, costs for those who snow ski on a mountain that has had its forrest obliterated so that people can ski down the slopes and then ride a chair lift back up, anywhere up to thousands. When we discuss the environment basically every moored boat at a yacht club has a toxic hull treatment which is removed every year (most goes back in the water) and then the hull is re-coated (over spray goes in water) the yacht clubs have fuels pumped out onto the jetties, these clubs have bars, restaurants, cafes and are private and you need to be a member, they are not free. When it comes to taxpayer/government supplied social infrastructure it is not free, even the local park (where there used to be a forrest) costs the ratepayers for every single square metre to be maintained through mowing/weed spraying etc, nothing is free, the local library is not free it has been payed for by the the tax/ratepayers. I see wave sports parks as exactly that another sports park for the community to enjoy, when people say no to everything you end up with nothing, behind every protest is often self interest. In Perth Western Australia the taxpayers paid $1.8 billion for what is now regarded as one of the best stadiums in the world, the lease is run privately and the very taxpayers who paid for it must pay to enter and simply sit in a seat and watch a sports event or watch a concert, no built infrastructure is free.

stanfrance's picture
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stanfrance Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:14pm

People hardly say "no"to everything, that's a bit ridiculous in light of the alternative argument the group is putting forward here.

radiationrules's picture
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radiationrules Sunday, 1 Aug 2021 at 4:59pm

guyso > with all due respect to your clear intellect, if you see surfing as the same type of pursuit as AFL and the other win-at-all-costs "sports" that your critique draws from, then the logic of what you say stacks up. Ironicallly its that supposition that the Basque surfers are standing up for. I for one salute them and will do all that I can to keep these chemical shitboxes out of a conversation that includes the word "surfing". Wavegarden is a themepark, nothing more or less. I know an ex-pro/am surfer who now races Drift cars, because he gets the same thrill - wow - I really feel like I'm missing out - participating in all that permamanet dedgradation to the natural enviroment, so I can beat someone for a few seconds?

Troppo's picture
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Troppo Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 8:28pm

..

tylerdurden's picture
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tylerdurden Thursday, 22 Jul 2021 at 8:52pm

How's the Webber pool going?
Supposed to be better than all the rest combined?
Isn't his grand plan to build them in non-surfing areas en-masse and teach the Russians, Chinese, inland Euros and Americans how to surf?
Surely that can't be good for us coastal dwellers when they come looking for ocean waves in 10 years time

dimdim's picture
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dimdim Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 9:54am

Surfing is taking off in China. Hainan has crowds now. Huge numbers of people are watching the olympics. Here they come.

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Standingleft Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 12:34am

Did Tulla a few weeks ago, never been colder. It's hectic in there but enjoyed it more than a theme park but similarly with son. There are surf instructors and schools there, well setup, busy, that's their business, making new surfers.
Maybe go back dunno, surfcoast beach 15 min away is looks even better than it did before, the gold class option Blowin

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Cacadajy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 6:02am

So..... wave pools are now a thing. They seem to have a market and consumers and are viable.
Now the question of location becomes quite a big topic. Tulla - awesome location underutilized land with the environmental impact seemingly factored into the price to play there.

There are many other locations away from the coast that spring to mind such as Adelaide, Western Sydney Brisbane etc. that may be suitable. Again using sites that may otherwise be underutilized or used for less environmentally friendly purposes (Amazon warehouse or Coles/Woolworths warehouse spring to mind)

So why not? In the right location build a wave pool and let the fun happen.

The pool v ocean argument continues as does the pools create more crowds argument.

But why not utilise a piece of commercial land in the right area for some fun and exercise and enjoyment rather than yet another huge shed for warehousing or some trucking company or a multinational company.

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tylerdurden Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 6:42am

It’s the scale Caca.
They’re ok now but the entrepreneurs behind these pools (Webber et al) have been open and clear: they want hundreds everywhere. The inland Euros, Americans and others who learn to surf in these things will be looking for an ocean one day

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Finnbob the terror Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 6:50am

I think most people who have mainly learnt to surf in a wave pool are going to have a slow transition from the pool to the ocean, particularly if the pool is hours from the coast. I had a guy stay in the air bnb next door, noticed he had a board on his roof, did the right thing and gave him the heads up where there would be some fun waves at the main surf spots, it was perfect MP conditions 4ft offshore. Spoke to him at the end of his stay and asked if he had got in the water, I commented that he had lucked out with 3 days of 4ft and offshore. He said he had checked a handful of spots but it looked like really hard work and hadn't spent much time in the ocean before, decided to wait until during the week when he has 2 sessions booked after work at the wave pool in Melbourne, only 10 min drive from his work.
I'm sure that if this guy turned up at 1 to 2ft twisters at a sand bottom point with warm water on a holiday he would go out, but he is not going to drive 2 hours to surf cold water waves over 3 ft if he can use his season pass at the wave pool a couple of times a week. I feel like the Melbourne wave pool location is in a good spot, located in an industrial area, far enough away from the coast to not affect crowd issues, but close enough for surfers from the coast to have a go if they want.

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Gra Murdoch Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 7:20am

But look at the critters that bulldozer's displacing in that cartoon up top! deer, fox, rabbit, cane toad... Could this be the solution to our invasive species problem? Convert the landscape into nothing but wave pools (feat. Bilby enclosures.)

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memlasurf Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:44am

Geez if they got rid of those critters here let’s go, hey ho!

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spinafex Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 10:26am

Technology is crowding the breaks but its not wave pools its Zoom and Teams enabling work from home.

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memlasurf Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 1:21pm

Guilty.

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Thunderbox Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 10:30am

Interesting how many PROponents and investors of wave pools also claim to have an 'eco-friendly' side to their professional-persona-brand... not naming any names here, but summed up quite nice in the article.

'...using surfing’s founding stories of communion with nature to sell a project that is ostensibly anti-nature.'

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 11:11am

My first post was deliberately provocative to stir debate ( not abuse so probably a mistake by me ) . I am not Jonsey as I did not go to a private school in Sydney but Mullumbimby High for 6 years .
Wavegarden at Tulla would employ approx 100 peolple full time and many to build the project and keep it in good working order .
If water is an issue we should build big watering holes ( dams ) . The last one cancelled was for the Mitchell River in Vic . It was stopped due to Melbourne Inner City Greenies ( who the ALP bow to to get preferences ) . The river floods regularly causing damage to farms , homes and infrastructure . The green solution was to build a desal plant close to the Mitchell River and I DO get upset watching precious fresh water flowing out to sea while the desal plant sucks in salt water ( at a huge cost ( cant turn it off ) using huge amounts of energy .
I don't think building a pool next to Bells is a good idea as cheaper land should be available in the region . But I do think most in the region would support it for the employment and the benefits that extra visitors would provide . Wavepools are cold even in summer so even Ripcurl would benefit .
Most of the people who use Wavepark are already surfers . If you live in Melb ( and have a family ) getting good surf is difficult ( tides not right ,too big/small , no banks ( not on the West coast ) etc . In the past if I wanted to get surf fit before a trip to Indo ( love the Mentawis ) I would take the family on a 2 week holiday to New Brighton . 10 trips to WP does the same thing . Surfing in a pool is crap to compared to the Ocean but a good alternative . It provides huge benefits to the community . If there are some extra crowds I am happy to get 10% less waves so others can benefit .

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ringmaster Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 11:33am

Hutchy19 said: "I disagree with anyone banning Wave Pools . They are a wonderful resource to help anyone to learn to surf . Many people are unable to get to the beach every w/e for months to learn and then the years to get proficient and get hooked on the sport . As we all know surfing is a fantastic sport for fitness and mental wellbeing and everyone should imo be given the tools to join ."

You sound like you'd be a good righthand man for Eric Logan.

Yeah!.....more people surfing..........tons more people!

That's exactly what surfing needs in 2021 with just about every half decent reef/point/beach on the planet already bursting at the seams with crowds when they're on.

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:18pm

Surprised you are on Swellnet RINGMASTER as it also helps get more people surfing . You maybe are exaggerating with "EVERY surf spot on the ( ENTIRE ) planet bursting at the seams with crowds ". I would guess that more than 50% of the planets good surf spots have not seen a surfer . On a recent trip to the Maldives the guide said spots we surfed had never , in his view , been surfed .

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stunet Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 6:10pm

"I would guess that more than 50% of the planets good surf spots have not seen a surfer."

Maybe in 1980 that was the case.

A fellow I know of, who's spent much of his adult life sailing and venturing far, far off the known edges of the surfing world, told me that he thinks all of the reliable (i.e not just breaking on a freak storm) warm water spots have been surfed.

And he told me that ten years ago. Serious inroads have been made into the cold water spots since then.

PS: No disrespect, but it sounds like that Maldives guide might be having a lend.

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 11:24am

Am prone to exaggeration myself and poor guesses . But way more ( another guess ) than 50% of the spots are NOT "bursting at the seams "with crowds . Keep up the excellent work Stunet !

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 11:24am

Am prone to exaggeration myself and poor guesses . But way more ( another guess ) than 50% of the spots are NOT "bursting at the seams "with crowds . Keep up the excellent work Stunet !

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dimdim Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 9:58am

Here comes China.

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SurferSam Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 11:33am

https://wavepoolmag.com/the-battle-for-perth-part-two-urbnsurf-and-endle...
Perth probably perfect place for a pool heaps of surfers but not enough waves unless you have boat , 4x4 and time
Doesn’t make sense building one where there are real waves

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Huggy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 12:42pm

I surf every week somewhere between Phillip Island or around Lorne, depending on the forecast (cheers swellnet for keeping surfing open to the public). I won’t say which wave is my fave, but it’s fair to say surfing in the ocean keeps me alive.
I’ve also clocked up (ka-Ching) 15 hours at Point Concrete (Tullies/Jets/Tubbamarine), and have only ever seen Stoke and Froth from surfers there.
No dropping in, no snakes, no wave hogs. New surfers learning there are taught courtesy and respect in the line up, so maybe the “wave pool effect” will produce surfers that actually live by the code.
Everyone knows how much the vibe sucks with crowds, yet at the pool you can have 18 surfers jammed up on the point, lined up taking turns and having a blast! Save the criticism until you’ve had a go, folks.

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memlasurf Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 1:27pm

I just find the wave gutless and barrels hard to make although my son went recently freezing his nuts off on a northerly and said the barrels were a lot more makeable (I have only been on something from the south). It is a great hoot with a bunch of friends with a beer o'clock afterwards though really a social occassion and a laugh.

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freeride76 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 2:11pm

I think the hypocrisy argument being used in favour of Wavepools is particularly weak.

Yes, we use cars, computers, houses etc etc- which all have an impact on the environment- but they are an inescapable fact of modern life unless you live in a cave.

Wavepools are not.

They exist solely for the pleasure of surfers and have not existed up until now.

So, it's far from hypocritical to oppose them on environmental grounds.

Especially when they are are used to bulldoze greenspace, like the proposed one or the Slater/Coolum development.

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:39pm

I hope we all agree that the Pools should not be built in environmentally sensitive areas . Most of your post is plain ridiculous . If you REALLY believe what you have written surfboards , wetsuits ,leg ropes , board covers , roof racks etc etc should never have been made . Maybe Wavepools ARE also an inescapable fact of modern life ? Like Space Travel . Contempt before investigation imho .

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freeride76 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:57pm

"Maybe Wavepools ARE also an inescapable fact of modern life ?"

Not yet.
and 65000 signatures on a petition and a hard-core surfing community just prevented one being built, and maybe another.

Y'see a difference there between that and surfing equipment which already exists?

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lilas Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 9:38am

Yes, we use cars, computers, houses etc etc- which all have an impact on the environment- but they are an inescapable fact of modern life unless you live in a cave.
Good point and from that statement you would deduct that Surfboards, wetsuits, etc are the same as wave pools though as they are NOT an inescapable part of modern life. Just toys

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Cacadajy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:32pm

This thread is cracking along nicely. Good opinions from many different angles with informed arguments and discussion.
Very little personal attacks or agro.
(No facto?)

Well done ladies and gentlemen.

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Cacadajy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 3:45pm

Then along comes a Hutchy.
Hmmmmmm.

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 5:27pm

Point taken . New to social media and will be more considerate in future posts . Sorry . Stopped playing Rugby League and AFL 25 years ago but combative nature is still there unfortunately .

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freeride76 Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 8:08pm

I appreciated your point of view Hutchy. Might not have agreed with it, but there was no problem with the way you put it.

was just cruising through New Brighton this morning.

beachies looked unsurfable.

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Cacadajy Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 4:52pm

All good Hutchy.
Someone may have been a little overly judgemental. I had "along came a spider that sat down beside her" stuck in my head all morning. I needed to set it free.

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warddy Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 4:42pm

For all the haters of wave pools ….
I don’t understand…
As long as they’re not fucking up the environment badly why not ? ….
At least they’re taking up a small proportion of land
compared to stinking golf courses for the well fed and foolish…,

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Mad Dog Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 4:49pm

I'm not against wave pools per se, but so close to a surf coast is a bit rich.

Interesting only a few posts here touch on the out of the way option. Why couldn't we build these things in remote or semi remote places, where the pools would attract tourists to struggling economies and present job opportunities for locals.

You could build the pools into solar farm projects and maybe create giant rainwater storage tanks or pump water out there and cycle it through the pools into agriculture projects to create local habitats.

It's 2021 FFS, surely we can put our minds together and think outside the box a bit. There's enough water at Cubby Station to fill 100,000 wave pools for example.....

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T.Edds Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 5:28pm

Fuck surfers that vote for the LNP.

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Roker Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 6:00pm

With a rotting, suffocating planet, viruses and pandemics and epidemics, maybe the world might be lurching from global to local in the long term. Who knows? Greenhouse emissions from aviation could drop around 70% back to 1990 levels. Countries too might be forced to become more regional than national. Zoom, WFH, AI, VR etc. are already facilitating this trend. Australia now seems more like six colonies than a nation. Yeah, I agree with Blowin', a near future where you can’t get in your car, or jump on a cheap flight and freely go wherever you like seems entirely possible. Would the net effect of wave pools in urban areas away from the ocean be so bad in this context? Might even be a good thing if it encourages people to stay local and gives a boost to local economies.

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Numbatt Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 9:09pm

If it produced double over head spitting kegs would there be 65000 in support?

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suckin-sand Friday, 23 Jul 2021 at 11:06pm

I’m a foundation member at Urbnsurf and live in Melbourne. It’s been great to get that midweek surf in and it’s usually after dark. Surfing the coast is not an option at 10pm on a moonless night. What’s interesting is that quite a few regulars are actually surfing the coast less. I’ve talked to a couple that hadn’t surfed the coast in months. The best thing about the wavegarden tech is the number of rides you get. 12-18 waves guaranteed depending on crowd. While I prefer waves twice the height, it’s still good fun/practice/exercise/vibe. Perth and Adelaide definitely need one but I doubt they have the population to sustain it. Lots of half empty or less sessions in Melbourne since COVID without all the travelers. Not that I’m complaining.

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Whynot82 Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 3:49am

Yeah Hutchy! haha
how dare you speak truth baked by real data and science! Who do you think you are? The truth hurts, people are fragile and the science and data is inconvenient to the cause. pls Don't upset the commies..And to AJ, God bless him. Speaks common sense and facts of which the leftie CCW hate haha sky derangement is an incurable disease like Trump derangement haha all climate change preachers scream the science is indisputable..yet the only science they give us as proof is a 16 year old expert lecturing the world. Haha yep must be true. Commie's love control and feel they should make all decisions on behalf of everyone else cos they know best. Well that's why the world is cooked atm.. Can't have a debate without people being offended over anything and everything. Lockdown and masks...well china did hahaha that's science lol

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nickca Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 10:35am

Each to their own. I wonder if many members of the anti wave park team have snowboarded and used a chairlift, terrain park or runs with snow making.? Any similarities?

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Garden Gnome Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 12:39pm

Great article, really well written and it gave a good oversight of the issue.
The notion of people being attracted by the sport being more exposed in wave pools, Olympics (and just have a look at all the TV ads with surfing in them) struck a chord for me. I think there may be a grain of truth in that!
This bit is tongue in cheek... I can remember being 8 years old, eating an ice cream, watching surfers for the first time ever at Cronulla in about 1969. The surfers climbed and dropped and seemed so graceful on their beautiful single fins. I turned to look at my Mum and said, "I want to do that." I've been lost ever since.
So, to those Cronulla surfers from 52 years ago, it is your fault that there has been one extra person in every surfing line up that I have surfed since that fateful day that you promoted surfing to me. I am still surfing to this day, and to those old Cronulla surfers I salute you and say thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I grumble and whinge about the crowds like the best of them, but, after reading this article and the comments, on reflection I think maybe I am a little bit of a hypocrite.
Well done Stu, you triggered some memories and made me look at that motivation that triggered the surfing bug. Have you answered questions, no... Have you made people think, yes. Good journalism mate!

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Ash Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 12:52pm

A quote from a new Magic Seaweed article on mid lengths " And with more people in the water now than ever before – some 2,000,000 new surfers since the start of the pandemic, the mid-length is becoming a staple in lineups across the world."
Forget the mid length part, it's the 2 mil new surfers claim, I have no clue how they ascertained the number, but that's a lot of newbies looking for a wave, any wave.
Good on the Basque surfers for standing up to this development and good luck to achieving a better outcome.

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icandig Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 5:41pm

Not worried about mid lengths as much as blow up Orcas. Just wait until these catch on.

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Ash Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 6:34pm

There's at least 500,000 orca riders in that pool alone

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velocityjohnno Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 7:27pm

There's something really soothing about watching that line of orcas get picked up and ride in as one.

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icandig Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 7:44am

Coming soon to a break near you. You can perch in lotus position atop Winki lookout chanting om while the soft tops, midlengths and blow up Orcas all join hands and ride in harmony all the way down to the valley.

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Patrick0710 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 1:47pm

Nature at her most beguiling.

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velocityjohnno Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 2:27pm

Don't know if I have an angle on this one? Maybe the place determines the response. If you think of southern France and Spain next door, with the smaller regional towns there, the whole of Europe can choose to descend on these beaches in summer, cos they are nice and have waves and are warm, etc etc. It must be like what we get here in Vic, but x 10. In this context, their heightened feeling of crowding is valid, and it's a 'tragedy of the commons' type of thing. Also if it's a small town, chances are the locals will all know each other in the water.

In somewhere like Perth, however, a wave pool is an absolute no-brainer (was very looking forward to Alfred Cove being the site). You've got a city-size surfing population, beach resources that are very well used but of lower quality much of the time - a wave pool would be a godsend providing repeatable shape that the beachies might not. Satisfy the hunger. Will it effect the coastal town community feel when it's a city and the community is much larger and more anonymous?

Ash's picture
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Ash Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 3:13pm

I don't have a clue how wave pools affect communities, towns and cities, and I'm fairly sure I won't know because of where I live. I'll have to read all about it from those that live near one, but it was the huge number of 2,000,000 new surfers since covid started, that drew my attention. An algorithm, AI super computer computation or a wild guess or maybe a direct line to Huey's growing list of surfers?

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 7:44pm

Magic Seaweed have found some magic mushrooms to come up with 2 million .

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ringmaster Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 8:02pm

and you know this because......

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:48am

It was a joke . They know it because ..... ? How did they work this out or was the guess pulled from their RING ?
Would guess that very few surfers has started in Vic during covid . Can't get to the beach . They are not coming from the Wavepark as mid-length boards are not suited to the Expert setting .

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D-Rex Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 5:02pm

surfaloot (and others) who get their knickers in a twist over wave pools obviously have not and will not ever go to one on (their high moral) principle. They are the salt of the earth who only eat mung beans, read The Age and watch the ABC (loonie lefties is another description which fits).

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Blowin Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 6:49pm

The recent clear felling of relatively large tracts of bush for multiple developments around the town I’m in has had a surprisingly powerful effect on myself. Despite years of expansion of the human footprint, it’s only now that I truly feel sick to my stomach at the thought of another single square foot of natural environment being destroyed for a fucking indulgence. An amusement.

There’s a decent chance that koalas could run out of enough native habitat to be a self sustaining population. The wetlands which feed our estuaries and rivers are being turned to housing. Every strata of life is being attacked simultaneously.

I’ve had enough. It’s not just the environment which suffers either, it’s humanity. Whether you realise it or not, humans need the wilds for our own emotional pacification if nothing else.

Fuck building your wave pools in green fields locations and if there’s a disused brownfield location , then it should be rewilded instead of building a fake wave machine when theres an entire planet of waves breaking naturally.

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bonza Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 6:59pm

Koalas and other key arboreal mammals r screwed in nsw and se qld. Give it 10 years.

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bonza Saturday, 24 Jul 2021 at 8:13pm

Those who use the straw man argument when arguing for wavepools being “you use fossil fuel thus you r a hypocrite”is so typical of the anti action for climate change mitigation. And also so dumb. Full support for the basque surfers.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 9:09am

Homo Sapiens HAVE always changed the environment . Australia only had 5% coverage of eucalypts and mega fauna before humans arrived . Same ( mega fauna )with N America , S America and NZ . 99% plus of species that have lived on the planet are extinct . The average lifespan of a species is 1 million years . The earth will recover very quickly when we disappear ( look how wildlife have recovered around Chernobyl ) .
With China and India not part of the Paris agreement till 2030 ( and VERY unlikely to do anything that affects their intention of becoming the worlds super power after 2030 ) there is no chance to reduce CO2 . Humans are smart and we will have a new energy source very soon anyway eg hydrogen and/or something new ,

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velocityjohnno Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 7:24pm

Widespread use of fire selected Eucalypts, oils off the leaves leached the soils and the rest is history. Large numbers of coal fired power stations being built by you know who, not just at home but over the developing world. cnxfkd.

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bonza Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 10:58am

Like I said. Strawman

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 4:16pm

Myself and most others are trying to debate the issue and everyone is entitled to their opinion bonza as you are . Your contribution so far is one word - strawman .

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bonza Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 5:08pm

But you weren’t debating the merits of wave pools were you. You changed the argument - an incorrect one. And claimed this proved your point.

Saying humans have been changing the world since we existed and thus we should have wave pools is ridiculous.

Land use. Land clearing. Crowding. Energy. Water use. change of surfing attitude / entitlement in the lineup along with others are the issues. Debate them

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 2:12pm

"According to well-established and trusted sources like the ISA, the Surf Industry Manufacturer's Association (SIMA), and Surfing Australia, the worldwide surfing population is estimated at between 17 million and 35 million." Googled it .
According to Magic Seaweed (MS) the surfing population has increased more than10% (low estimate ) or more than 5% ( high estimate ) during covid in under 2 years . Do pigs fly ?
As I sad above that increase in numbers here in Melb is impossible as we can not get to the beach .

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thermalben Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 8:54am

"well-established and trusted sources like the ISA, SIMA and Surfing Australia"

Somewhat of an oxymoron.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 2:21pm

From the same article .
The Rio 2016 Olympic Games had an estimated audience of 3.6 billion people.

Not everyone will watch the surfing events in Tokyo 2020, but if only one percent of the audience saw the 40 male and female surfers battling it out for medals, the number of viewers would be 35 million.

But the Summer Olympics, per se, are not enough to increase the number of surfing participants. You've got to have waves.

And what better time to bring surfing to the masses than now. With the rise of three or four reliable wave pool technologies, surfing will no longer be an ocean sport.

Man-made waves will allow young and older people to connect with the bliss of walking on water. People will be able to learn and improve their wave riding skills in unusual, landlocked areas and countries.

Surfing is making its way to becoming an outdoor recreation as accessible as finding a swimming pool. Sooner or later, you could be surfing in Midland America, Paraguay, Niger, Russia, China, and Afghanistan.

With artificial wave pools, surfing will become as democratic as kicking a football or playing tennis. And when that day comes, the number of surfing participants may very well double to over 50 million.

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mattlock Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 2:30pm

I hope they all stay away from me.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 2:40pm

"Surfing is making its way to becoming an outdoor recreation as accessible as finding a swimming pool. Sooner or later, you could be surfing in Midland America, Paraguay, Niger, Russia, China, and Afghanistan.

With artificial wave pools, surfing will become as democratic as kicking a football or playing tennis. And when that day comes, the number of surfing participants may very well double to over 50 million."

That argument: that pools will democratise surfing is a nonsense.
A swim in a pool costs $3.50 and thats for as long as you like.
Anyone, no matter how poor can afford to learn to swim in a pool.

Kicking a football is free. It costs bugger all to play for a team.

Tennis, even, is only slightly more expensive.

Wavepools are $90/hr.

To get your ten thousand hours of proficiency would cost an individual close a million dollars.

Lets say they can get proficient in a thousand hours, even that is $90000.

This is the opposite of skateboarding, surfing in the ocean, and almost any other sport.

This is more like an American College Education at an Ivy League University as far as expense goes.

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brutus Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 2:45pm

Freeride , but what about if the government , subsidised the pools , as part of a deal where people who can't surf in the ocean anymore because of their fear of sharks and thus creating a whole new world of land based surfing...surely as the shark populations return to their normal levels , pools could be a solution ?

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freeride76 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 3:16pm

Yeah , they could subsidise the pools, but that would come at massive expense to the taxpayer.

no way around it: water is incredibly dense, making waves uses lots of energy.

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megzee Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 2:59pm

"Man-made waves will allow young and older people to connect with the bliss of walking on water. People will be able to learn and improve their wave riding skills in unusual, landlocked areas and countries."
Hutchy 19, the Bliss that you speak of and the rewards will never be the same without encountering the following. Urchins, coral,Tides, Reef walks, Rock jumpoff's, finding a way in, Hours or days of travel, onshores, our grey nemesis, consequential duck diving, howling blinding offshore's, over the falls, blue bottles, sunrise carpark views, Sunset car park beers, sea ulcers, sun burnt bugle, etc...etc..
The bliss should be hard won, I reckon...

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 3:43pm

Not my words , from the article but agree that there are challenges . I have experienced them all as well as broken bones , concussion and near drownings .
I spoke to a dad whose son REALLY impressed me as he had only surfed for 3 months at Urban . They lived in the country. So I will say he surfed 2 times a week for 13 weeks at $90 per session . $2340 ( not $90k freeride , you dont do the numbers for Magic Seaweed do you ? ) in total .
When he goes in the ocean he will be a good paddler and be able to take off at the critical time as you need to be able to pop up quickly when surfing the Expert setting . I think picking the right waves will be quickly learnt ( follow the leader )and he then can get the bliss of surfing really early ( compared to me ) and experience all the other challenges that makes surfing the hardest sport to master .

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Blowin Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 4:14pm

Only $2500 in 3 months to learn to surf. That’s accessible to everyone!

Everyone who’s born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Throw in the board and wetsuit hire, the overpriced snack bar and Daddy shuffling the young prince to the piss pond each time and let’s call it $6k to traverse the face of a wave. It’d be funny watching Little Lord Fauntleroy trying to figure out the line up pecking order at a shifting beach break for the first time.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:49pm

He will have no problem . Amazingly he surf really well and his dad , a gun , will look after him . As said in a previous post surfing manners are a priority lesson at URBAN . His dad didn't act rich and surfs year round. You are sooo quick to think the worst of fellow Australians you know nothing about . Maybe his dad works hard and is good at it .

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freeride76 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 4:22pm

you reckon he's ready to go at $2340, thats still alot more than most families can afford.

I reckon they'll spend triple that at least before he's even halfway competent.

It's very far, anyway you slice it from "democratising" surfing.

It's more like a pure commodification of it.

Again, the differences between that and swimming in a pool, or kicking a footy are glaringly obvious.

In a wave pool, nothing comes for free. You literally pay for every wave.

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mowgli Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 4:03pm

I find it strange that these are always floated in surf zones. From the very beginning I always through the best places for this tech were Central European mountain region valleys (oodles of water, potential for hydro-power) and middle-America ski regions (again, snow-melt, lots of sunshine, and now sports all year-round with downhill biking).

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megzee Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 4:56pm

"In a wave pool, nothing comes for free. You literally pay for every wave."
Agree FR.....In more ways than one....
Quick comparison Chart: Ocean Vs. Pool
*Car park arrival with warm cuppa waiting for first light Vs. Standing at Turnstiles
* Smell of Crisp fresh ocean air Vs. Daily Chlorine dosing odour
* Sound and sights of the motion in the ocean Vs. Hum of machinery starting sequences.
* Sunlight Vs. floodlight
* Deciding if it's worth paddling out Vs. I paid, I'm out there
* Paddling out and copping a few sets on the head Vs. orderly dry haired conduct
* Tide, Swell, Wind Vs. Wave setting
* Faithful surf dog Vs. No pets allowed
* Wet cold wetty Vs warm, dry state of the art steamer...
* Travelling 200k's for medical assistance with injured mate Vs. Paramedic and hot nurse next to the cafeteria. [ this could be the plus side of the wave pool gig]
Etc.....Etc..

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velocityjohnno Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 7:45pm

*ingesting fish and coral spawn Vs. ingesting wee

mowgli's picture
mowgli's picture
mowgli Tuesday, 27 Jul 2021 at 12:21pm

shark attack vs. enraged-parent-of-entitled-child-attack

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 5:03pm

I've got no drama with tubs in the right places, including Tulla.

I just wish all the bogus environmental, democratising arguments would die in a ditch somewhere.

It's a toy for basically rich people.

Bulldozing more green space, especially close to the coast, to build tubs, should be and looks like it will be vigorously opposed.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:32pm

Agree with you Freeride . Surf pools should never be built in economically sensitive and culturally sensitive places . No old growth forests and wild areas should be touched and rich countries should be paying places like Brazil to to stop . We should also be helping developing countries manage plastic pollution of land and oceans and doing a better job ourselves . Very sorry to hear what is happening in your area .
I have commented about my solution to the water issue - build more dams for everyone , not desal plants .The demonization of CO2 ( plant food at 450 parts per million etc ) is not an environmental problem imo but a HUGE waste of money that could be spent as above. Stopping others the chance to surf is selfish imo . The cars parked at the facility are not rich type cars . Lots of tradies etc . Lots of Australians spend 100 bucks for a day/night of fun . Think cars , fishing ,dinners , pokies , booze , drugs , going to the footy etc etc . I believe that Aussies will never let our Kolas be pushed out of the wild completely. We are improving land use at Phillip Is which has a very large population . Australians are the best at supporting good causes .

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bonza Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:53pm

Please explain how you think creating more dams will solve water problems.

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megzee Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 9:21pm

Beat me to it Bonza.....
Dams destroy vast land masses and ultimately the natural Flora and Fauna....
Desalination [ reverse osmosis] on the other hand is a fairly low energy process.
As a side note of credibility, I manage offshore rigs with fairly large POB numbers [ people on board ] and the daily consumption of potable water for showers/toilet flushing/ housekeeping/ teeth brushing is calculated at 350- 450 liters per man/ per day. [ with a bit of educating on wastefulness ] All drinking water is bottled, but that is just desal'd product anyway.
On the larger rigs we have 320 POB with 2 Desal plants processing 80 CBM of fresh water daily, [24 hrs.] with limited load on the power management system, but we always have ample storage of FW on board. Smaller rigs have smaller Desal plants, but the man per day usage figure stays the same......Leaving the tap running while brushing your teeth, or flushing 4 liters of water for a 1/2 liter piss means that a good amount of the waste water ends up in our "grey' tanks.
Obviously, my spiel has nothing to do with wave pools........More of a desalination vs. Dam counter....

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bonza Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 9:57pm

Clearly hutch is confused. Using (potential!?)clean energy as a defence argument for wave pools but dismissing (potential!?) clean energy in favour for building dams that steal water from our floodplains, groundwater, waterways and fisheries?

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 10:12am

Careful megzee . Off shore rigs ( guess Gas ) are very naughty creating all those terrible fossil fuels . A big no no with Bozo ( rhyme ) .Tiny Desal plants may be energy efficient on a rig ( why not big water tanks getting rain water ) but not the huge ones on land . Please provide some evidence as you should be an expert . I think a clean gas plant ( China are building one every few days ) would be a great way to power wavepools . What does the fossil fuel you produce get used for - 24 hour electricity supply is again my guess .
Surprised that a person who works in your important industry is blind to the benefits of a well place dam . Hope you don't want to destroy our current dams . Imagine the benefits of building them on our inland river system !

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megzee Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 12:46pm

Sorry to burst your little fossil fuel bubble Hutchy boy...
I am into asset management, where we provide a client with specialized rigs with large crane capacities and accommodation for offshore platform de-commissioning/ upgrade campaigns so I am not involved in any part of the hunt for fossil fuels, or how the client refines it, or the final product use.
"Surprised that a person who works in your important industry is blind to the benefits of a well place dam . Hope you don't want to destroy our current dams"
Strange comment mate? Not Sure how you determined that!
Although we are guided by the same offshore regulations as a drilling rig.
As for catchment of rain water, our decks are "Zero Pollution" which means nothing escapes over the side. Ran water is drained into dedicated tanks and goes through an Oily Water Separation process before being discharged. As you would expect, water for human use is analyzed and tested weekly and rain water just doesn't meet the standard.
Thanks for the Expert tag Hutchy, but I will have to step down on that one......
Expert- An 'Ex' is a has-been and a 'Spirt' is just a drip under pressure.

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 2:04pm

Thank you for the extra detail and no bubble burst here . Your business does support the extraction of fossil fuels as you point out by upgrading .. Nearly all extraction requires new sources which also helps your business of de-commissioning .Your business would not exist if there was no fossil fuels . I determined that you were smart by the work you do so hoped you would have an informed view on the benefits of water storage in dams . Please help Boso with the naming of species that have been affected with our Dams in Australia . Thanks for the definition of Spirt but not required . What is a PERT defined as .
Catch the water on the roofs and drink that instead of wasting energy on desalination and use the OWS for the deck water which sounds cool .

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megzee Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 2:42pm

"Expert- An 'Ex' is a has-been and a 'S-pert' is just a drip under pressure."
That is just a witty little play on word sounds Hutchy lad.....chortle chortle....
Couple of things Sir...
1. I am sure Bonza does not need any help providing such information you have requested.
2. Rigs do not have "roofs".......only decks.....Main deck, upper deck etc....all with compliant drainage systems........If we instructed crew and workers to drink rain water the relevant Class and Statutory authorities we answer too, would quickly black list our company....Marine/Maritime and Offshore sectors are the most highly regulated industries in the world, therefore simplistic "green" ideas do not cut it.
So that you can step down off your sanctimonious high horse, the majority of our client projects are offshore Wind Farm/ Turbine construction.......
Have a nice day Hutchy 19....I'm out mate...

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 5:31pm

Hope you see this when you are in as I would like to be enlightened .
You said you manage large and small rigs with large POB numbers on board . Very interested to see/locate a wind farm/ turbine that operates on a rig . Or is this just minority of your clients projects ?Also interested to hear about what type of turbine construction operates offshore , on rigs and learn more about this exciting technology .
Also wondering about why are there large numbers of people needed on the rigs to support these technologies and why they need oily water separation . Why is there oil seeping from a wind farm or turbine ?
I know the regulations for most industries are high but not being able to get approval to capture fresh/pure rain water sounds hard to believe . Have you tried ? You might not have a roof ( what is over the workers sleeping quarters ) but you could build one or put up a few tarps . I really would like to know more about this as at the moment as I am feeling like I am hearing a furfy and that you have oily armpits . I like oil ,clean coal and gas by the way . They keep our lights on at night and power our industries .

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 5:45pm

Another thing that sounds strange . I have never heard of an asset manager that operates a business of this type or any business . Invest in yes , often . I am sure there would be the rare exception though but in Oz , not so sure as have never heard of this ( I do have a good knowledge of the business models of asset managers ) .

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megzee Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 6:30pm

I will indulge you one last time Mr. Hutchy.
I am a rig manager [ which can be, and often is classified as Asset Manager for Client/owner purposes] for a Singaporean based company and we operate rigs on various Windfarm projects in Vietnam, China, Taiwan and soon Japan. Plus we have other "Assets" ie; Rigs in the Persian Gulf on yep....Fossil Fuel related projects.
The turbines are NOT on our rigs, we simply move on to a location, Jack up the rig to the working height, unload the various components from supply vessels with our previously mentioned, large capacity cranes and assemble the units....you know, Foundations, Tower, Turbines, Blades.....A free standing Wind Turbine, which is not really exciting new technology now is it mate......Once assembled, we jack down and move off to the next location...
Obviously large numbers of personnel are required from a multitude of disciplines, along with offering offshore accommodation facilities, thus large POB on occasions.....oh yeah, Heli -deck for transfers/ emergencies etc...
As previously stated, we DO capture rain water, but it is not utilized as a product for use.....An upper deck replaces a roof structure so enough of that silly line of enquiry please.....A few tarps on a US$80 million rig would look pretty special wouldn't it mate.......Classification Societies make the rules Hutchy, not the owners..
An Oily Water Separator is a Class approved mandatory, calibrated and certified piece of Engine Room Machinery found on ALL commercial vessels, and is used to separate oil from contents of drain and sludge tanks.

"Another thing that sounds strange . I have never heard of an asset manager that operates a business of this type or any business . Invest in yes , often . I am sure there would be the rare exception though but in Oz , not so sure as have never heard of this ( I do have a good knowledge of the business models of asset managers ) ."
Already sufficiently explained.....But just because you haven't heard of it means f...k all...

" I am hearing a furfy and that you have oily armpits"........
With this statement, I now realize you are nothing more than a complete troll dickhead and I never vent such frustrations on this fine forum......Picture attached for educational purposes only
https://ibb.co/YTpyxDF

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ringmaster Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 6:47pm

VERY well articulated Megzee.

(Like watching a cat play with a mouse)

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megzee Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 6:58pm

Cheers Ringmaster...
I'm too much of a tom cat to play with kittens though mate...

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 9:15pm

After looking at your very impressive rig I realised I didn't mention installation costs for a windmill . Guess that the daily rig rate is $US 200k and 2 days to install . Would not be surprised if I am 50% too conservative on both numbers .

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 8:14pm

Great answer ! As I said , in Australia I had never heard about what talking about . Also never heard about asset managers doing what you are doing . Your definition of asset manager is very specific and unique to your industry . You have given me the information to not have doubts about your comments which had previously not added up to what happens in Oz . Sorry re your frustrations precious . Feel free to peruse the comments directed towards me throughout this thread which are at another level compared to my comment " I really would like to know more about this as at the moment as I am feeling like I am hearing a furfy and that you have oily armpit at the moment pits" or " you are nothing more than a complete troll dickhead " . Sticks and stones .......megAzee . Within a very short period of time wind terminals will be proven to be another stupid green idea . The cost to build them (plus CO2 and rare earths ), the cost to repair them , the very short life span , the birds they kill , that they don't operate when the wind is soft or strong ( so we need to have a back up which costs more money )the list is endless . No problem with your company working with them though as there is an obvious demand in this crazy world ( at the moment ).

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megzee Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 10:07pm

Hutchy 19, I am really not sure why you have me in your sights, but for the final time I will indulge you with my responses to your ever inquisitive, keypad driven mind.
Firstly, It wasn't a "Great Answer', it was a detailed "response" to your doubtful insinuations and wording of my profession, experience and position.
Secondly, I am bound by a Non-Disclosure Agreement with regards to project costs, so I cannot possibly reveal day rates or timelines on this forum.....but your 50% variation is 70% plus or minus off....
I will retract my "Dickhead" name calling caper......that was pretty ordinary...and that is not my style.......

One thing has me confused though Hutchy boy , but please do not reply to me......OK?
How can you condone flooding vast natural Flora and Fauna habitats to make way for Dams, but raise concerns about a few seabirds getting tangled in Wind Turbine blades?......
By the way Earth savior boy, the wind Turbines are governed, so wind strength is not a critical operating factor.....They rotate on a regulated speed cycle........Of course they have brake/lock systems utilized during Typhoons and heavy weather...
Schools out kids.....

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 27 Jul 2021 at 10:06am

You said don't reply and then ask me a question which I will answer .
The flora and fauna affected by a new dam are not endangered and are are abundant in many other river systems . Also the river that would be dammed would have the same species on the 95% plus of the same river . The species affected in the short term would benefit in the long term .
I ask you the same question - how to you condone a few seabirds getting tangled in
blades ( fact is that hundreds of thousands are killed many of which are apex birds like eagles , albatross's etc and are not tangled but smashed ) and worry about species affected by a dam ?

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mowgli Tuesday, 27 Jul 2021 at 12:26pm

450 ppm is not good. Any notion that it might be has been debunked long ago by people who understand what they're talking about (and are qualified).

To save you having to do a PhD, read this:
https://skepticalscience.com/why-450-ppm-is-not-safe.html

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 28 Jul 2021 at 10:00am

I did read the article .Thank you . Concerned that the so called experts that get published and funded may be biased . Other experts have different opinions .
CO2 ( plant food ) is required to stay above 350 p/m otherwise ALL growth slows dramatically . It was more than twice our current levels in the Dinosaur age which caused huge vegetation growth to feed the Dinosaurs . I would expect the earths temp to be increasing as we are still coming out of an Ice Age and sea levels to rise at the normal rate ( 4inches every 100 years as they have for centuries ) . With the World Economic Forum trying to do The Great Reset I am very sceptical on Global Warming being a disaster and man made . I have not done a PhD on this so can be wrong but still looking at the data . Great to see that the Great Barrier Reef is thriving !

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 9:53am

If you read ALL the previous posts you would have seen this .
If water is an issue we should build big watering holes ( dams ) . The last one cancelled was for the Mitchell River in Vic . It was stopped due to Melbourne Inner City Greenies ( who the ALP bow to to get preferences ) . The river floods regularly causing damage to farms , homes and infrastructure . The green solution was to build a desal plant close to the Mitchell River and I DO get upset watching precious fresh water flowing out to sea while the desal plant sucks in salt water ( at a huge cost ( cant turn it off ) using huge amounts of energy .
New comments .
Since built the desal plant has never been needed but has to run often to keep in working order . Once turned on it costs another load of money to turn off ( so they keep it running ) . A HUGE waste of money .
If you listened to any farmers ( I suppose you hate them as well ) you would hear a different view on the benefit versus costs of dams .
Dams are like big watering holes that fauna and flora need in our dry country . Put in the right places they dramatically benefit wildlife and can be used for hydro energy .

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bonza Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 10:50am

rivers are meant to flood. it happens every 2-3 years. there's a reason why farmers and towns were built on floodplains. because they are highly productive areas. they are productive because flooding rivers bring valuable organic material full of nutrients onto farming landscapes. that same highly productive water "precious water" that flows out sea is not a waste but is highly dependent on by our off shore fisheries. intelligent farmers understand this. you should try listening to one.
commercial fishos are farmers too. Do you hate them?
more dams don't create more water hutch. its called the hydrological cycle. google it.
what else do they teach you in the city hutch about farming, ecological processes and landscapes?
or do just like repeating what you heard on talkback from other city folk that get their scripts from international owned corporate irrigators?

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 1:47pm

I hate no farmers and don't listen to talk back radio . Please do not be so presumptuous ! Why are you so negative on city folk ? We pay most of the taxes that pay for your medical bills and Australians pensions and social security . I hope you pay your way . It is the reason why we hardly get the time to surf and need wavepools .
I know dams don't create water ( der Fred ) but they do store them for use by animals and plants when needed which you do not understand . I want all rivers to flow but when they flood we can store the EXCESS water which can be later released to HELP them flow during droughts . The farmers I speak to regularly are , like most , intelligent Boso . Please name two ( even one )species of plants and animals that have been adversely affected by our dams and I will name 10 that have benefited .

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bonza Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 2:31pm

cool - so its ok for you to claim that I hate farmers and fossil fuels but i shouldn't be presumptuous to say you hate farmers and listen to shock jocks? got it. I'm not negative on city folk - who says i'm not one? is that you being presumptuous ? I'm negative on dumb shit.

re species - ahh gee i don't know - what about every single plant that gets drowned when you put a dam in? and all migratory fish that use our inland waterways for habitat. sheeesh -arguing with you is like poking ones eye out. its clear you have no idea what you are talking about re this subject. and largely ineffective at arguing for wavepools without using false irrelevant points. good luck to you.

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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 4:51pm

You are right. I was being presumptuous saying you are negative on fossil fuels . Checked and you did not . Sorry . But you did say "Try listening to an intelligent farmer " . I speak to farmers regularly and took it as a slur on them . You also said "and other city folk who get their scripts from... " which I also thought a slur on city folk but now I see it is not a general slur only on the 100's of thousands listening to talk back radio , so sorry again .
Re species . You are correct that a lot of plants will drown as there are unable to move from the area of the dam . But most of the river stays the same and the dam will create more shoreline so no long term detriment to any species ( so give me just one ) but huge benefits to plants and animals during droughts . Agree also re flooding helping fertilise farm land eg Nile . Once a year we can let water out ( rather than every 2-5 years ) to help the farmers . A severe flood causes farmers huge problems as I have seen and heard from them in Gippsland on the Mitchell River . Also the offshore farmers . A severe flood decimates all the breeding grounds for the fingerlings , prawns , frogs etc . So much better for them .
I hope your eyes are not too damaged but maybe not a problem as you are unwilling to open them and rationally debate without abuse . I would never say "its clear you have no idea what you are talking about " . Just a different opinion . A common response from people with a poor argument . Attack and Throw abuse . Good luck to you to .

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bonza Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 6:17pm

Says the guy who calls me bozo. And by the way I know that catchment and adjacent catchments well and you really don’t have any idea what you r talking about.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 7:41pm

I double checked and you did say clearly that you were against fossil fuels and pro climate change mitigation . One and the same .

bonza's picture
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bonza Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 7:57pm

Haha. Ok mate.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 29 Jul 2021 at 1:15pm

How are you going with the ONE species of Flora or Fauna that has been adversely affected buy ANY Australian Dam ? Megazee said you wouldn't have a problem . Knowing so well the river systems I
thought it would easy for you. It might be easier for you to name ONE species of ENDANGERED bird affected by Wind Farms ? If not let me know as I am happy to help .

thermalben's picture
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thermalben Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 2:12pm

Slightly OT, but a great read from Michael West:

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/a-200pc-return-from-water-nice-work-if-you-can-get-it/

In fact, there's a whole bunch of articles on the MW website that have covered this in detail (plus a Four Corners episode too).

And, this vid is an hour long, but highly recommended.

Hutchy 19's picture
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Hutchy 19 Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 6:04pm

Thanks for the links as I learnt some new information . Water was at $600 per megalitre last year and early this year ( under $100 now ) crippling farmers and other users of water . We need to have a royal commission into this . The Chinese have also bought out many other farmers water rights . Would building a huge dam above Cubby and releasing excess water when available help this situation . It would reduce the value of all water right holders ( many Australian farmers and businesses ) . We need to keep the rivers running along their entire length even in drought imo .

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tubeshooter Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 5:13pm

The future looks grim. If 'Zager and Evans' surfed,, the song 2525 could have been a bit different..

In the year 2025
If man is still alive
If surfers can survive
they may find...
In the year 2125
Aint gonna need no beach , wont need no sand
Every wave you paddle into
Is tailor made just for you...
In the year 2225
Aint gonna need no forecast , or know the tides
Your brains got not nothing to do
Some algorithm is doin that for you..

Finnbob the terror's picture
Finnbob the terror's picture
Finnbob the terror Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 6:26pm

I wish people would stop comparing the two, like comparing dogs and cats, both are pets but completely different animals. Obviously, there are going to be differences get over it.

megzee's picture
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megzee Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 6:58pm

Yep...your absolutely right Finnbob......
There is no comparison what so ever.......one barks and bites and the other purrs and meow's

Finnbob the terror's picture
Finnbob the terror's picture
Finnbob the terror Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:02pm

Ha, my Dog barks but doesn't bite, but my cat purrs then bites.

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megzee Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 8:18pm

https://ibb.co/4T2QwBK
Off course there are exceptions to the rule Finnbob....

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tubeshooter Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 10:06pm
endru's picture
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endru Monday, 26 Jul 2021 at 3:12pm

Wavegardens, wavepools etc and worries about overcrowded lineups are common to San Sebastian and Tullamarine, and many other places but the historical and cultural context of protest movements are completely different. In Spain, anarchists in Barcelona and more recently the ETA in the Basque Country fought long battles against the fascist government in Madrid (the Real Madrid v Barcelona soccer matches were always spiced by fascism versus anarchism). Recently, Podemos in Spain has attracted many voters disillusioned with the social democrats and interested in far-left protest movements. Meanwhile, in Australia, the Harvester factory in Sunshine was where the Arbitration Court worked out a basic wage in 1910 and provided much support for unionism. That ended with enterprise bargaining in 1990 and where unionisation used to be 50%, now it's 15% or less. The old Harvester factory site is now a shopping centre in Sunshine (not far from Tullamarine). Given these very different contexts, it is not surprising that a protest movement could stop the wave garden in San Sebastian but there is not the slightest prospect of any protest against its equivalent in Melbourne.

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 27 Jul 2021 at 12:54pm

Read today that the Australian Institute of Marine Science released their annual stats on the Great Barrier Reef . Those worried that Global Warming is hurting the reef will be thrilled to hear that reef coverage is at RECORD highs and that farm pesticides could not be recorded by their their very sensitive instruments .
When reef coverage drops in the future ( what goes up ... ) please don't blame GW as it will probably be a cyclone (although the official data shows they have also decreased in number in the last 40 years ).

cosmic rider's picture
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cosmic rider Thursday, 29 Jul 2021 at 9:50pm

How long will it be before the wavepool owners start complaining to sea side councils that they should charge surfers at the beach because they are not making enough profit and might have to lay off workers.

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truebluebasher Thursday, 29 Jul 2021 at 10:52pm

Salute #1 Surf Journo Stu, that is both insightful & cutting edge...double thumbs up swellnet *****

re: Stu's Paris 2024 Olympics rejects wavepool
(13/14th Aug 2019 tbb : Le poo poo Freak Peak Wave Pool) Tags a Part 1 intro...
https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2019/06/14/paris-2024-ol...

tbb shall reward our Guru Stu with a Surf trophy...Crew said to make that 2.
(1) 10th May 2016 > Protest site of Blasphemous Wave Pool designs
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/
(2) Cross channel mainstream Hot Dog rode on the tail of Stu's ooh la la scorcher...
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2021/jul/25/wave-of-success-staycatio...
MSM are on now on board ...[ The Wave ] impact on British Beaches & UK Surf Craze is going nuts.
France are no doubt observing the UK effect with Jaws dropping...
We have no option but to "Kill the Wave Pool!"

Much more of this story to come...thanks for opening our eyes Stu...heat of the moment > bang on time.
Just when ya think it's safe for a pee in the Pool...Surfpolitik slams down hard on yer Wave Pool...Ouch!

Bonus : (Yep!) 3 Surf Trophies...saved the best for last...
Blasphemous Wave Pool Cartoon Collection...(Le Drool!) Farkin' kill for that...enjoy!

https://zad.nadir.org/local/cache-vignettes/L500xH707/zpadef-750x1060-61...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/affiche_surf_...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/zad-surf-bass...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/jura-weekend-...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/70161288_3842...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/20oct2019-aff...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/CONVERGENCE29...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/carnet2-750x1...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/102412524_387...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/EiWoLunWkAEJv...
https://terres-communes.zici.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/cuicui-final-...
https://www.stop-surf-park-saint-jean-de-luz.com/

Roker's picture
Roker's picture
Roker Friday, 30 Jul 2021 at 4:49pm

Just watching the Olympic whitewater canoeing on TV. Wonderful spectacle.

I wonder if there’s a hardcore element of purist kayakers who object to their sport taking place in artificial rapids in a concrete basin? Unlikely.

The Australian taxpayer and local ratepayers provided funding for the majority of the build of the whitewater facility at Penrith Lakes. This is right and proper – as the gold medal won today by Jess Fox demonstrates.

Why not then, an adjoining wave pool? One that uses water from the quarries, in the same way as the whitewater course does?

Now that surfing is a bona fide Olympic sport, the taxpayer should provide for a new training facility for the benefit of our elite athletes.

Our Olympic team had to go all the way to Lemoore, California so they could train for this year’s games. This no doubt explains the underwhelming results. A scandalous situation and one that must not continue.

We must provide a training facility for our Olympians. What better place for a KS Wave Generation System Facility than Penrith Lakes with its environmentally friendly, abundant supply of water, existing infrastructure and Olympic heritage.

Come on Surfing Australia and the Commonwealth of Australia. You are letting our athletes down. Do your job.

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 12:47am

Roker...your sentiment is there & yer heart is in the right place.
Also linking in Sydney Olympic wave pool is where it's at.
But do we really wish to reveal surfing's darker side?

Olympic Ideal is to return the facility/s to the Public for recreational use.
Basically the build cost is returned by recreation or SES Swiftwater Training...etc.
Ticks all the boxes but the price check is a Wipeout for Surfing...(A few Smirks!)

Cost...based on 2020 Tokyo Olympic Ticket Prices > Oz Public Admittance fees
NSW 2000 Olympic Whitewater Stadium Tickets $160 > Public Hire $45/day
https://paddle.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/SlalomVenuePeter-Heeley...
NT 2007 Arafura Games (80 nations) Wave Pool SLS (Free) > Public Hire $8 / day
https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r371856_1726198.jpg
https://arafuragames.nt.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/beachvolleybal...
GC 2018 Commonwealth Olympic Pool Ticket $1,340 > Public Hire $6/day
https://gc2018.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/Web_OAC_TrialsDusk.jpg
2020 Olympic Training Wave Pools Surfing Ticket $40 > Public Hire $115 >155 / hr
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5fc59120116eb00e3c6bae39/1...

2028/2032 Olympic Swimming / Canoe are locked in ...Surfing is undecided?
Surfboard Riding is priced as least athletic sport but costs the Earth for Public access

Darwin SLS Wave Pool costs 1c / wave...*****Resort Setting + Civic Centre -Conferences-Hotels.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/fritzifoto/fritzifoto1503/fritzifoto15...

These greedy WSL beach bums can outspend competitors to buy their medals.
Yet public can't afford to even look at their Training Wave Pool, let alone dip a toe in one!

2024 Teahupoo is the last Surfing Olympics that we know of..
We build Blue Planet's biggest most expensive, loudest, wettest training facility.
Bigger than Olympics & Bigger than France just for a $40 Gold Medal Event!

All of this for "Olympians" that sit around all day or can just stand there if ya like.
Olympian's need to share Arenas / training facilities access or they can get lost!
Hands up if any reckon we can surf Anna's White Shoe League Ranch for $10/day.

ScottWilliams's picture
ScottWilliams's picture
ScottWilliams Sunday, 1 Aug 2021 at 4:21am

Hey Hutchy,
I was born in Mullum and learned to surf at Bruns. Was at Mullum High from 1980 onward. Now live at Twees. Surf some of the most crowded spots on the planet every day the wind has a hint of south in it, which is not often lately! I can always get a few (4 constitutes a surf!). It saddens me so many people seem so very selfish these days. If more of us gave more and expected less we would all be much happier in the water.

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Sunday, 1 Aug 2021 at 9:31am

Gday Scott !
A great High school . Was Nola McMahon still working at the school ? She was a very good friend of my mother . My still best friends ( Jonsey and Dave Bruce ) started the first school band with Nola helping and we did the musical Joseph and the Technicolour dream coat . Quite a hit . I was road crew for the band due to my musical ability . One wave is counted as a surf for me with an aim of getting 6 . Was a member of the Bruns SLC and the pub is the best in the world imo . The coppers used to ring the publican before popping around to warn us under aged fellas to leave .Fond memories .
Good luck to you .

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Sunday, 1 Aug 2021 at 9:53am

Also just thought about getting my P's at Mullum . The copper asked me to drive him to the bank in the main st . As you know less than a 1k and he got out to do some banking . Then drive straight back to the station . My eldest daughter needs to do 120 hours ( I was lucky to have done 2-3 ) . 4 of us ( including Poodle from Byron ) organised a footy tipping comp to raise money for the booze at the year end party . I had 16 people ( including 3 slabs which was the tax for our work ) in my mums Honda Civic driving to the head masters home in the early hours for our "muck up ". The " good old days ".

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Sunday, 1 Aug 2021 at 10:03am

Sorry Swellnet . Another memory popped in my head . When doing a cross country run around the water tower on the hill the guy I was running with saw some gold tops . He had a few and spent the rest of the day in the sick bay ( not sick but enjoying the experience ) .

lilas's picture
lilas's picture
lilas Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 7:20am

Is anyone else getting the feeling that many "Surfers" are the most selfish people on the planet?
Would you not want to share such a magical experience [Surfing] with other humans?
What gives you the right to horde such a positive life-changing experience?
[Take a look at the disabled Army-Veterans surfing Kelly's pool for an example]

If a wave-pool can save just one Land-Locked inner-city kid from a Fucked up life of crime and drugs, then wouldn't it be pretty horrific to withhold it, just so you can keep it ALL for yourself?

Might be a good idea to all remind ourselves of just how lucky we were to be GIVEN the opportunity to know surfing. This opportunity was given freely by someone else. Isn't it your job to also pass it on?

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 10:51am

Wavepools aren't sharing anything.

They are commercial enterprises charging per wave or $90 hr.
Kelly's pool, very much more than that.

When they start giving them away to army vets or poor kids then I might take your viewpoint on.

For now, paddling out in the ocean is entirely for free.
No one is hoarding anything.

lilas's picture
lilas's picture
lilas Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 3:43pm

I think you are missing the essence of my pondering Freeride76.
My point is about sharing surfing in general [wave pools are only part of the context]
I reiterate that surfers hoard the ocean/beach/waves. Jesus man, it's a part of surfing culture to exclude non-locals. Shit, I think surfers even invented localism.
I have been told more than a few times in my life not to surf a particular wave despite showing gracious manners and sitting way down the end of the line, etc. If that's not hoarding then we may have different definitions of the word.
I also grew up in Brisbane and faced the wrath of being called a brizzo everywhere I surfed because I was an outsider not worthy of "their"waves.
Well I am that city kid that was spared a life of crime and drugs because someone showed me the ocean. And despite most surfers not wanting to share their waves with me I persisted, and fell in love with the ocean.
Unfortunately years later after moving to the beach, I also became a wave hoarder for a while so I've seen both sides of the coin.
I just think us very LUCKY surfers should be more considerate and welcoming of Non-surfers, as after all, they could be you or I.

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 4:13pm

"If a wave-pool can save just one Land-Locked inner-city kid from a Fucked up life of crime and drugs, then wouldn't it be pretty horrific to withhold it, just so you can keep it ALL for yourself?"
I think you ARE missing the point 76.
"For now, paddling out in the ocean is entirely for free. " Not for the inner city kid they are not . They can't get there for the hundreds of hours to learn .
WHEN wavepools become really common in the future I am sure disadvantaged kids will be subsidised to enter . I would be very happy for my tax dollars to be spent on this !!!!!!!
In the future there will also be much bigger and better waves .
You have made the point that you do not like the idea of wave pools due to the extra crowds they could create . That seems to be the main point of protest ie not willing to share waves !

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 5:32pm

Sorry I am WRONG again . I need to get much better at this gig . Freeride you have not ever mentioned an unwillingness to share waves !!! Sorry mate .

Roker's picture
Roker's picture
Roker Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 6:10pm

Some good things happening on the wave pool front in Melborn.

Considering its location in one of the more socio-economically challenged areas of Greater Melborn, the Citifyd Surfin’ Pool has mandated that 20% of their sessions will be available free for state schools and youth organisations in the area.

Talk from the Victorya’s Governor’s mansion indicates that the state legislature is impressed by quantitative research it commissioned which shows Surfin’ Pools are an effective means of combating juvenile delinquency.

The Victorya HHSD is said to be seeking applications from various NPO’s with the view to providing and administering NFP Surfin’ Pools all over Greater Melborn, primarily as public service facilities for vulnerable and disadvantaged youth.

Royale Meborn Golf Club and Queenstone Heeth Golf Club are reportedly considering similar programs.

Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19's picture
Hutchy 19 Monday, 2 Aug 2021 at 6:58pm

Thanks Roker ! Great news . Our Governor is very impressive and shows wonderful leadership . She is the best we have had in a while and we usually have very good ones . I can also confirm that the The Heath also sent two groundsman to a nearby public course to help repair damage done by our recent storm .