Here you go optimist
Not sure my motivation...my instinctive need to stick up for the underdog...my secret desire to be one day honoured rightfully with the role of Forum moderator (expecting a call any day)...
But anyway I couldn't help but read your troubles on another thread...unfortunately I found myself siding with everyone's posts...other than your own...except for the part where you were told you can't post here!
So I put my low IQ mind to coming up with a solution that suits all...and here it is...a safe place if you like
You can post anything you like about your beliefs...and no one has to read it unless they want! Easy peasy...
maybe you could even get Jesus, fat Buddha, Mohammed, and friends to converse in adult conversation here
Solving the world problems, one at a time...call it taking a shovel as a way of moving that mountain
All the best...brother
PS...I actually was born again once, but I grew up, and grew a brain of my own...and realised it was all a load of shit!
"Signs and wonders" probably sitting in your kitchen drawer right now!
yes it does Brutus. is disproves the theory of divine intervention by showing common neurological / biological effects linked with near-death experiences through testable experiments, that can be reproduced and shown to be statistical significant. So it disproves your theory and it provides logical testable solutions to what the underlying causes may be.
But if you were to say God chose it to be shown that way - then no it doesn’t prove it or disprove it. Because it cant be tested. Much like you can’t disprove the fairies that live at the bottom of my garden
Brutus, I am a curious person and curiosity is a defining human trait.
My view is that if god exists he is nothing like the biblical god as that comes across as humans trying to paint a picture of something that cannot see based on generations of speculation and very human-like needs for protection in an often scary world "our father who art in heaven". Even Jesus, once he goes beyond the parables and good commonsense messages of living well amongst others, to less earthly topics he seems to be wondering, speculating and attempting to fulfill prophecies that have come down through the centuries - following the words of others - rather than having a direct line to god. He appears to be trying to trigger the coming of heaven on earth as per the scriptures as would a human with just the stories of old to go on. Plus he was trying to reform Judaism, not create a totally new religion. People are following Paul more than Jesus.
To me peace of mind cannot come from a belief in something that does not ring true. My peace of mind is very much disturbed by most of my associations with very religious people (especially those who want to convert you). So many have complete logic blanks at certain points in their belief map. Many seem very selfish to others outside of their narrow little world of believers or once they stop trying to love bomb you.
To live in the Bible belt in the USA where they have placed an orange man in the status of a prophet would be scary. An eternity in heaven next to Jesus with a billion other souls sounds like prison. If the big carrot of heaven and hanging out with Jesus for a billion years does not appeal much there is a little bit of a problem with that belief system..
So when I say peace can come from accepting there is no answer I mean:
1. the answers provided so far don't seem like good ones or to have insight beyond the human perspective.
2. following the wrong answer by building my life around a false or made up religion and misguided people is to me far far far more disturbing than no answer.
3. I suspect the answers will not emerge in my lifetime (if ever).
By the way, I think your quote: "God holding the whole universe in his hand as infinity is his domain" is a pretty good all encompassing answer - as good as any. But maybe moving beyond that into the details is where it all goes murky.
Bonza.....the link you posted , is actually an opinion based on some tests....I do not see any definitive facts......from personal experience with all the drugs mentioned , there are some anomalies like Ketamine.....LSD has way more God affects , in that it takes you into another virtual reality , but it can like all drugs have the opposite affect and take you into a hell like reality.......
If you choose to believe and have faith that the link is right I would be interested to see your opinion on Intelligent design?
as for the Fairy's at the bottom of your garden.....well enjoy!
NDE can be most likely be explained by the effects experienced through loss of blood flow, neurological release of chemicals, REM sleep type, memory triggers.
ID is bogus because absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
the reason why things appear to be so perfect (which in many cases they are not) is because they have evolved that way.
Frog.."doesn't ring true" , I understand about your curiosity , but your gut feel or ring true is based on your personal experiences and the education that you have provided for yourself......I have never read that Jesus speculated and tried to fulfill prophecies....he created parables and fulfilled all the prophecies , one of them was he would be tortured , die on the cross and would arise again.....
as for the Bible belt and the white evangalists /Trump supporters , they cannot pass the Jesus test....I have been on quite a few of their forums....and asked "do you think Jesus would have wanted to build a wall, or stop immigration , and as he was born a jew in the ME.....would he have supported racial divides, how would he treat black people ,poor people.....there is no other answer but NO he wouldn't.... So at the end of a discussion with them.....I would ask , "well if Jesus does not support your religious dogma , who are you?" I would then be banned from the site!
I believe man's intellect to be very limited as can be seen by the current state of the world....being in heaven is described as euphoria , and hard for an intellect to comprehend ..especially if you haven't read Revelations and understood it?
have you read the link I posted on intelligent design?
Just thought I'd post some scripture for those that are seeking God....
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow Way.....
13“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits......
15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
I Never Knew You......
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So the holiest of men and women of all other faiths and beliefs are mere lost souls to you because they are stupidly following false gods?
Optimist, your god is one seriously fcked up dude, to reject any of its children is not loving. Seriously, that last passage you shared has to show that the Bible was written by men who only thought they know God, but have truly forgotten god loves all creation. Yep, you are correct, for those seeking God, but not knowing god. It shocks me to think that someone who is so passionate about God could seriously think that those passages are from God, sorry, the book is incorrect in this instance.
but who decides dave which is instance is correct or not?
Intelligent design used to seem to have a lot of missing pieces in the jigsaw puzzle to fill.
But over time, the gaps and mysteries just keep getting narrower and fewer. Any hand of God shrinks to, at most, a nudge here and a tweak here and very probably not even that. I would call that as occasional tinkering not intelligent design deserving awe and credit for every species.
If credit is due it is way way back with the big bang and the setting the mathematical / physics parameters of the universe. That is a huge "wow, how did that happen" question. But after that most of the rest was going to happen anyway. Tinkering was not really needed to form galaxies and planets or even to create life. Gravity, chemistry, physics etc would gradually do its work without intervention.
Those early origins are a real mystery. If a god kicked it all off good on him. But it suggest a creator so unknowable and remote from you and i that all the speculation, prayers, bible study and hymn singing to some father like being similar to humans is a bit pointless and way off the mark.
To me it suggests maybe a remote creator that occcasionallly does something big and then watches a vast universe fairly passively from afar as it expands and unfolds.
"Being in heaven is described as Euphoria".
I'll ask the next dead person I meet.
Lets face it though- without a belief in something; virtually no amazing structures would never have been built- Pyramids, Stonehenge, Machu Picchu, Notre Dame, Blue Mosque, etc, etc
All the wars, crusades, killing, raping, torture and stealing wouldn't have happened either.
Anyway, if people base their lives on doing good things for fellow man and nature, I don't care what you believe in.
Ha Very good Westy.....
And He said....From the sermon on the mount Matthew 5
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
guy..So the holiest of men and women of all other faiths and beliefs are mere lost souls to you because they are stupidly following false gods?
I wouldn't use stupidly following false Gods......so yeah if you don't accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and Our saviour , that he died for our sins on the cross and arose from the dead ........you are a lost soul.
Well said bonza. You do. All viewpoints are valid, but some are incorrect. I will never say a more accurate thing then God is all loving, and I mean all loving. Any other viewpoint has been made up and usually through a human fear based filter. Some just because humans seem so small and inconsequential compared to life as we view it, others done on purpose to manipulate and exploit for selfish, greedy, egocentric outcomes. As for the Christian's they worship the man, rather than worship the wisdom, rather like falling in love with a family photo album cover rather than the wonderful pictures, feelings and memories stored inside.
"so yeah if you don't accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and Our saviour , that he died for our sins on the cross and arose from the dead ........you are a lost soul."
How about this:
So yeah if you don't accept Muhammad as the one final prophet of Allah, and his revelations as the only true word of God, you are an infidel.
It's exactly the same line Brutus, and highlights how narrow-minded dogma (such as your throwaway comment) has lead to greed, bloodshed and war since its inception after the agricultural revolution when human populations exploded and the power-hungry elites crafted ways to force animistic nature-based beliefs into hierarchical religions, as a platform for power and control.
There's nothing inherently wrong with experiencing 'God' through one of these very recent inventions of our human story (Christianity, Islam, Scientology or whichever good-book you happen to have faith in), as we all probably need more time to find ways to connect to that life-giving energy in the universe. But laying out how your particular religion is the only way to save your soul is a tired and clearly falsified line that not only divides people, but is also embarrassingly ignorant of deep history...
...y'know, that kinda inconvenient history or that Aboriginal Australians have lived as respectful stewards here in our backyard for 60,000 plus years with complex animistic belief systems and connection to Country. Theirs was a spiritual epoch that will inevitably far exceed the short-lived and extractive Christian worldview.
"...y'know, that kinda inconvenient history or that Aboriginal Australians have lived as respectful stewards here in our backyard for 60,000 plus years with complex animistic belief systems and connection to Country. Theirs was a spiritual epoch that will inevitably far exceed the short-lived and extractive Christian worldview."
You do know Brutus is indigenous?
Personally i think its funny that you people think religious people(christians or muslims) aren't going to think that other people be it non believers or of other religions aren't going to be viewed as lost souls or infidels....off course they are because anyone of some faith believes they have the one and only answer, so off course all others views will be viewed as wrong and be viewed as lost souls or infidels..
When are not talking about supporting football teams here.
Kind of the same thing though.
Yep, it's mostly tribal. Largely, people follow a religion because they grow into it. Their parents follow said religion, or even broader, it's a national religion so it's as ubiquitous as culture - they can't separate themselves from it.
Reckon ol' Cat Stevens had the right idea. Believed in a big fella upstairs but didn't know which religion suited him, so like a discerning customer in a tailor shop he slipped into many religions, tried them on for size till he found the one that fitted.
Say g'day Yuself Islam.
Similarly the Dalai Lama had some clever quote about tolerating various religions but I cant be arsed googling it.
Don't the Japanese do a bit of discerning selection or what religion is needed in what situation? Makes sense if you are into religion.
Born Shinto, die Buddhists.
Frog ' it'samazing how much money science spends on trying to work out the origin of the universe , and the philosophers trying to work out the meaning of life?
years ago there was an atomic collider built in switzerland , , billions of $'s spent to try and find the God Particle.......science has been trying t o work out the origins of the universe and as they keep breaking down matter , there is always "intelligent design " ......no radomness as per the big bang...it looks like the whole universe was created by someone/thing.....
Intelligent design is nothing more than creationism in a cheap tuxedo. — Leonard Krishtalka
That is funny Bonza, thanks for posting that. One of the best quotes I've heard in years!
Speaking of intelligent design, do you happen to ride a bonzer?
Bazza..." There's nothing inherently wrong with experiencing 'God' through one of these very recent inventions of our human story (Christianity, Islam, Scientology or whichever good-book you happen to have faith in), as we all probably need more time to find ways to connect to that life-giving energy in the universe. But laying out how your particular religion is the only way to save your soul is a tired and clearly falsified line that not only divides people, but is also embarrassingly ignorant of deep history..."
For a start Christianity goes back to about 8000BC......Islam about 600AD.....I was asked a question and answered I am not here taking History lessons from you as you don't have much idea about me and how much history I have studied......when it comes to indigenous culture , not sure how much you know , but for me it's an ongoing adventure to understand and learn more ....
bonza , ol mate Lenny is a dinosaur expert.....
Halibut currently nope. But I live in hope. Ankle biters sucking up cash. Last board I bought was a step up MC protow 6”4. Funny enough. Feel like Jesus when I ride it.
Stu..."Yep, it's mostly tribal. Largely, people follow a religion because they grow into it. Their parents follow said religion, or even broader, it's a national religion so it's as ubiquitous as culture - they can't separate themselves from it."
Nearl every born again Christian I know did not grow up with religion .......they just about all found Christ in their later life.....in Hawaii , the pastors/congregations that I visit and am connected to...were once all gangsters/brutal, some of the heaviest people on Earth...Kai Borg /Bird/Butch/Trip........I can keep going.....
bonza LOL....inspired by God!
Hahah. I’ll wear that
You could keep going Brutus but it's besides the point. If culture wasn't an aspect of religion then there'd be similar percentages of religions found in every country
For example, if 1:8 person on Earth is a Christian, then the ratio would hold through every country, same with the ratios for every religion. It's obviously not the case. Not even close.
And all those people you mentioned becoming born again Christians are living in countries where the dominant religion is Christianity, so that's what they turn to. Born again Muslims, or Ba'hai, or Buddhists aren't unheard of but they sure as hell aren't as popular as the Christian versions, at least here in Christian-dominated countries.
Brutus when were you Born Again.... before 2012 ?
Do dogs go to heaven? (Asking for a friend.)
Don't know about dogs adam12 but I have heard that sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell.
"guy..So the holiest of men and women of all other faiths and beliefs are mere lost souls to you because they are stupidly following false gods?
I wouldn't use stupidly following false Gods......so yeah if you don't accept Jesus Christ as the son of God and Our saviour , that he died for our sins on the cross and arose from the dead ........you are a lost soul."
Thanks for the honesty Brutus.
This being "lost" is where your faith loses me. To think that good people the world over are lost unless they believe in that one true god isn't very god like, at least the way I think a god would act anyway. On one level its also pretty dangerous thinking that missionaries in the past and currently have used / use to justify all and any actions that total disrespect(ed) exisiting non christian belief systems.
As I previously said I try to respect people of faith but I think this one true god thing is as extreme a religious belief/ teaching as they come. At an individual level it might help believers in understanding their faith but whatever church you belong to needs to seriously rethink this pillar, I would go as far as to say its a deliberate man made lie.
Interesting and thought provoking convo. Been following it and some pretty a amazing insights from all.
I'm not religious..it's not for me, however i can admit i've had situations in life that i've wondered if my time was up and i've spoken directly to God...a God or something higher. It seems inherent within us that when the shit hits the fan, we look to that higher force to help us out...so there's something in that.
Also even notice when something really crazy happens people always scream or yell or mutter....'oh my God!'. That's probably a more ingrained statement from growing up, however it does come out so easily, again like it's inherent within us to look to a higher power during times of extreme danger to others.
So you want a religion to teach it's followers that their god isn't the only true god and their religion isn't the only way to heaven???
I really don't think you understand what religion is about.
Fuck off info you’re out of your depth yet again .....
Guy, I think I've commented before (probably a handful of pages ago) about the universal accessibility of salvation-through-Christ (not to be confused with the unversal application of salvation), which isn't a particularly controversial idea in Christian circles... don't have time to re-hash it right now, but does that idea help at all r.e. the problem of other cultures?
P.s. another point where your worldview and ours fail to overlap is the notion of "good people". The Christain pov (rightly or wrongly) holds that every person falls short of the objective measure of goodness. (Not that people aren't capable of doing good, but are incapable of doing so faultlessly). So I think you and Brutus are pretty likely to keep talking past each other on that point!
Interesting story about the JWs leading people down a dead end path... Worth a read to see the downside of "saving" people who don't really need saving.
As A Kid I Was Told Armageddon Was Near, So I Wouldn’t Need A Job. Now I’m A BDSM Model
Take note you evangelists.
I have seen some very poor life choices made and parenting from people focussed too much on the holy spirit and trying to build up their resume ready for meeting jesus.
ha ha out of my depth.
I dont know why but you clearly have zero concept of what religion is about, the whole point of a religion is that each religion believes they are correct and that their way is the only way to heaven and that their god is the only god, it's part of pretty much all religious teachings.
To suggest otherwise defeats the whole purpose of each religion.
Imagine going to church and the preacher out the front says.
And to reach heaven you must be saved and give your soul to Jesus Christ, otherwise you will go to hell for eternity
Although i should quietly mention alternatively you can join the mosque down the road, you can also get to a perfect after life by following Muhammad and his teachings, or Hinduism if you dig cows, or if you like science fiction maybe Scientology is your thing.
Either way any god works none is better or the one, just pick a religion they all get you there.
.... more earthly penance
Stu...."You could keep going Brutus but it's besides the point. If culture wasn't an aspect of religion then there'd be similar percentages of religions found in every country
And all those people you mentioned becoming born again Christians are living in countries where the dominant religion is Christianity, so that's what they turn to. Born again Muslims, or Ba'hai, or Buddhists aren't unheard of but they sure as hell aren't as popular as the Christian versions, at least here in Christian-dominated countries."
Interesting to note that Christianity started in the Mid East , where Islam is dominant now and that Europe who had pagan Gods , is mostly Christian .
So going on your theory the ME should be dominant Christian ?
Very interesting book that explains that Western Culture as we know it now , would not exist without the Bible/Christianity.....and that our Current Western civilization would not be as advanced technologically and socially......"How the Bible created the Soul of Western Civilization - The book that made your World " by Vishal Mangalwadi.....
Udo, after 2012 during my second fight with cancer. in 2014...baptized in Hawaii in 2019.
Guy...."This being "lost" is where your faith loses me. To think that good people the world over are lost unless they believe in that one true god isn't very god like, at least the way I think a god would act anyway. On one level its also pretty dangerous thinking that missionaries in the past and currently have used / use to justify all and any actions that total disrespect(ed) exisiting non christian belief systems.
As I previously said I try to respect people of faith but I think this one true god thing is as extreme a religious belief/ teaching as they come. At an individual level it might help believers in understanding their faith but whatever church you belong to needs to seriously rethink this pillar, I would go as far as to say its a deliberate man made lie."
Any culture that adopts a God/Gods , worships their God/Gods which becomes the basis of the Culture/s..
there are more tha 10,000years of Christian Stories/History that support Chrisianity , Old and New Testament......so pretty hard to say they are man made lies.....as there is evidence to the contarary .
Scrolled through a few pages of this forum, seems like we haven't gotten into Satanism yet.
These guys have been doing some excellent work, Satanism more as a symbol of protest, than what is traditionally thought of Satanism.
Basically they started trying to organise events to push back against the religious discrimination/freedom bill that Scott Morrison was peddling before he actually had to do some work... cashing up his mates, cover up rape etc.
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