Interesting stuff

Blowin's picture
Blowin started the topic in Friday, 21 Jun 2019 at 8:01am

Have it cunts

davetherave's picture
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davetherave Sunday, 9 Jan 2022 at 3:22pm

DAW-???? No matter your circumstances, you are only passing through. If you know anyone who actually created that land, let me know. Correct, we inhabit, we steward, we restrict, yet did we actually create it. No we didn't, If I have to tell anything to anyone it's to the nearly 7 billion energy units currently being human beings, Wake UP, Until we treat all aspects with loving kindness, dysfunction will be the norm. One body, when one part gets neglected, ultimately the whole body feels that effect which affects us all.

evosurfer's picture
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evosurfer Sunday, 9 Jan 2022 at 4:21pm

gsco I truly hope your not a Australian citizen because if you are your a traitor of the highest order.
You live in a western world, values and free way of life but you talk like a Chinese propaganda
expert to me your scum and a chinese RAT blood sucking leech and maggot.
By the way im sick to death about hearing what happened over two hundred years ago its got
nothing to do with us and almost every nation in the world has been overrun by some country
or other in history so suck shit and die hopefully by chinese torture I hear thats how they rule
and control their own country. You fucking disgust me.

y

gsco's picture
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gsco Sunday, 9 Jan 2022 at 5:29pm

Lol, I thought that would rev you up a bit.

Although I don’t quite follow the logic of your last post. I’m just really interested in understanding the Chinese perspective on world events.

Regarding covid being a Chinese bio weapon, do you realise they now have the strictest lockdown and border closure etc measures and rules in place on the planet, which they’re not exactly benefiting from. They’re still in a covid suppression strategy and are keenly watching how things play out in countries like Australia. And they’ve also had covid hospitalisations and deaths etc. so I don’t quite follow your logic on that one either.

DAW's picture
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DAW Sunday, 9 Jan 2022 at 5:42pm

Davetherave,
Totally agree with your statement,my comment was in regards to the mindless dribble in the post from gsco.

boater's picture
boater's picture
boater Sunday, 9 Jan 2022 at 11:03pm

Re post of GSCO.

I’m an Australian Sinologist – and never cease to be amazed how the Chinese propaganda gets through to naïve Westerners like gsco.

What you and your business colleagues say is wrong in fact and interpretation. China never been expansionist / imperialist? What about Vietnam and Russia in the past, India and Bhutan now. The decimation of ethnic minority rights in Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolians (yes, we did it in the past, but they’re doing it now). Occupation of the South China Sea against international law. Reneging on the “one country two systems” deal (Law) for Hong Kong and dismantling it’s elections, law and the media. So of course Taiwan doesn’t want to be next (reunification), so China preparing to invade, possibly in the lifetime of Xi Jinping and dragging everyone into war. In the (non-military) “grey-zone”, there are hundreds of documented cases of Chinese coercion – arbitrary arrests of foreigners, trade sanctions (incl Australia) – plus foreign interference in the media, politicians (e.g. Sam Dustyari) and universities, IP theft, cyber attacks etc. And working on multiple fronts to re-define international norms on human rights and democracy. Etc. As Chinese generals themselves say .... "we're coming".

Re your argument the West is just trying to “stop its rise to power”. The West has for decades bent over backwards to “engage” and incorporate China into the international system (e.g. WTO, UN). Australia has spent $billions on thousands of co-operative projects with China. But from 2013 the Xi era has become increasingly authoritarian domestically and in aggressive internationally. The West is (belatedly) trying to deal with it and putting together the sort of coalitions and initiatives you mention. It would be negligent, dangerous and against the national interest not to. The measures are sensible, which is why they are bipartisan and a big majority of the Aust public support them.

I prefer to think that Australians like gsco are not “traitors” (in the way the Vichy French rolled over to the Nazis). Maybe just contrarian (want to understand and argue the opposite position), easily persuaded, or it suits their business interests. What do you reckon gsco? Happy to discuss any of these points in more detail.

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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 6:13am

So evosurfer...so history means nothing to you??

Do you celebrate Anzac day/Birthdays ?

evosurfer wrote:

gsco I truly hope your not a Australian citizen because if you are your a traitor of the highest order.
You live in a western world, values and free way of life but you talk like a Chinese propaganda
expert to me your scum and a chinese RAT blood sucking leech and maggot.
By the way im sick to death about hearing what happened over two hundred years ago its got
nothing to do with us and almost every nation in the world has been overrun by some country
or other in history so suck shit and die hopefully by chinese torture I hear thats how they rule
and control their own country. You fucking disgust me.

y

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 7:14am

The West defeated Japan in WW2 and thus saved China from being a Japanese territory.

The West injected capital, knowledge and direction into China following the Chinese own disastrous self harm of the cultural revolution, thus invigorating China and propelling it into the modern age.

The West promoted Chinese participation in international institutions when 50 years before Chinese couldn’t even feed themselves, let alone dream of being world players.

China would still be a starving Japanese territory if it wasn’t for the USA and the West.

The Chinese victimhood mentality is a strategic ploy.

brutus's picture
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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 7:53am

Blowin...The west invaded China a 100 years ago, when they were colonial powers , The raped and pillaged China go the people addicted to opium , which created the opium wars and the Boxer revolution.
The West wanted to make more profit than they could in their own country's , so they moved their business's to where there was really cheap labour ..to make more profit

The workforce in the West ate shit when industry went to China creating unemployment and insecurity.....

there is no China victimhood , they are just going about their business and have become a World Player on an economic and Military level, because the West wanted more short term Profit...now we live with the rise of China and they have not forgotten how , why and the results of the Wests attempts at colonisation of China!

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 8:00am

The west invaded China in 1922?

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 8:16am
boater wrote:

Re post of GSCO.

I’m an Australian Sinologist – and never cease to be amazed how the Chinese propaganda gets through to naïve Westerners like gsco.

What you and your business colleagues say is wrong in fact and interpretation. China never been expansionist / imperialist? What about Vietnam and Russia in the past, India and Bhutan now. The decimation of ethnic minority rights in Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolians (yes, we did it in the past, but they’re doing it now). Occupation of the South China Sea against international law. Reneging on the “one country two systems” deal (Law) for Hong Kong and dismantling it’s elections, law and the media. So of course Taiwan doesn’t want to be next (reunification), so China preparing to invade, possibly in the lifetime of Xi Jinping and dragging everyone into war. In the (non-military) “grey-zone”, there are hundreds of documented cases of Chinese coercion – arbitrary arrests of foreigners, trade sanctions (incl Australia) – plus foreign interference in the media, politicians (e.g. Sam Dustyari) and universities, IP theft, cyber attacks etc. And working on multiple fronts to re-define international norms on human rights and democracy. Etc. As Chinese generals themselves say .... "we're coming".

Re your argument the West is just trying to “stop its rise to power”. The West has for decades bent over backwards to “engage” and incorporate China into the international system (e.g. WTO, UN). Australia has spent $billions on thousands of co-operative projects with China. But from 2013 the Xi era has become increasingly authoritarian domestically and in aggressive internationally. The West is (belatedly) trying to deal with it and putting together the sort of coalitions and initiatives you mention. It would be negligent, dangerous and against the national interest not to. The measures are sensible, which is why they are bipartisan and a big majority of the Aust public support them.

I prefer to think that Australians like gsco are not “traitors” (in the way the Vichy French rolled over to the Nazis). Maybe just contrarian (want to understand and argue the opposite position), easily persuaded, or it suits their business interests. What do you reckon gsco? Happy to discuss any of these points in more detail.

100%

etarip's picture
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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 8:29am

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is one of the most aggressive colonial powers in history in terms of scale and impact of sheer number of people. There’s two main aspects of this. Firstly, the policy of ‘transmigration’ of the Han majority to displace other ethnic and cultural groups within ‘greater China’ is well documented. This policy changes both the demography but also the political and social order in these regions. What this policy does is reduce the claims of territories, cultural groups and ethnic enclaves to be recognised as distinct. This reinforces the second part of; the CCP’s colonial mindset - its manifesto that ‘China’ is and always has been the extent of territory controlled by any ancient dynasty at any point in history. It’s bullshit. It would be like Italy or Greece claiming some kind of historical rights over the ancient Roman or Greek empires.

brutus's picture
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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 8:49am

Blowin , to try and understand China today , ist invaded by the British in 1839.....then just about everybody else did including Ruusia/Japan USA/Blgium/France the list goes on ....even Australia gets a mention...have a read really interesting when you understand how long China was it's own culture...about 5000 years they go back....

https://www.wealthandpower.org/part-2/21-understanding-colonialism-the-i...

Blowin wrote:

The west invaded China in 1922?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 8:54am
bonza wrote:
boater wrote:

Re post of GSCO.

I’m an Australian Sinologist – and never cease to be amazed how the Chinese propaganda gets through to naïve Westerners like gsco.

What you and your business colleagues say is wrong in fact and interpretation. China never been expansionist / imperialist? What about Vietnam and Russia in the past, India and Bhutan now. The decimation of ethnic minority rights in Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolians (yes, we did it in the past, but they’re doing it now). Occupation of the South China Sea against international law. Reneging on the “one country two systems” deal (Law) for Hong Kong and dismantling it’s elections, law and the media. So of course Taiwan doesn’t want to be next (reunification), so China preparing to invade, possibly in the lifetime of Xi Jinping and dragging everyone into war. In the (non-military) “grey-zone”, there are hundreds of documented cases of Chinese coercion – arbitrary arrests of foreigners, trade sanctions (incl Australia) – plus foreign interference in the media, politicians (e.g. Sam Dustyari) and universities, IP theft, cyber attacks etc. And working on multiple fronts to re-define international norms on human rights and democracy. Etc. As Chinese generals themselves say .... "we're coming".

Re your argument the West is just trying to “stop its rise to power”. The West has for decades bent over backwards to “engage” and incorporate China into the international system (e.g. WTO, UN). Australia has spent $billions on thousands of co-operative projects with China. But from 2013 the Xi era has become increasingly authoritarian domestically and in aggressive internationally. The West is (belatedly) trying to deal with it and putting together the sort of coalitions and initiatives you mention. It would be negligent, dangerous and against the national interest not to. The measures are sensible, which is why they are bipartisan and a big majority of the Aust public support them.

I prefer to think that Australians like gsco are not “traitors” (in the way the Vichy French rolled over to the Nazis). Maybe just contrarian (want to understand and argue the opposite position), easily persuaded, or it suits their business interests. What do you reckon gsco? Happy to discuss any of these points in more detail.

100%

Good post, this discussion could get interesting.

evosurfer's picture
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evosurfer Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:00am

Brutus history is fascinating and interesting but past history does not mean
generations later have to pay for what accrued 100s of years ago that's just
stupidity. Might just say 3 generations ago my great great grandfather worked
14hours a day at 20cents a hour for 30 years now today I would be payed this
much so somebody needs to reimburse me this much. How ridicules does that
sound.
You tell me what did the rest of the world do to China to warrant germ warfare
especially the western world except do trade, manufacturing and make
them filthy wealthy and powerful for the ones with power the normal people
are just modern day slaves. The world is terrified of China is that because they
are nice, giving, friendly, decent and value freedom of life no it isn't.
The world should unite and totally boycott China and destroy their economics
try and make them pull their head in and stop China threatening civilisation no
that's no good to Chinese Sympathises like some clowns on here because in a
couple of centuries they would say that was bad should give it back. Fuck me.

gsco's picture
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gsco Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:20am

boater, I'd love to have a rational, informed, respectful and balanced discussion about China with a Sinologist, that would be really cool, and with everyone really - everyone's opinions are valuable. (But maybe this thread isn't the place for it.)

Apart from climate change, I think the China issue is the most important issue the world is facing - how do we deal with the rise of China? I think it needs proper debate and discussion.

What I'm struggling with is, to date I've seen nothing in these forums about China that I can't read on news.com.au, including what you said boater. Over time I've expressed an opposing point of view, and some perspectives I believe Chinese people would agree with, in order to solicit opinion and response, but I just keep getting high quality, unbiased, deep and well informed news.com.au narrative...

It surprises me that there's a very large contingent of commenters here that don't accept for a second the mainstream western media and government narrative and "expert opinion" on many topics, in particular covid, but they seem to consume this narrative and opinion on China completely verbatim and without question.

If anyone cares to know my actual opinion on China, it's I don't have one since I have absolutely no idea since I don't accept for a second the narrative or misinformation or propaganda or opinion from either side. The west and China seem to be well down the curve of a wartime footing against each other, and from everything happening in the background in terms of political and strategic alliance manoeuvring, this wartime setting is just escalating. It's just warfare smoke and mirrors from both sides.

The main motivation for my comments about China is the question:

How should we deal with this rise of China?

I seriously question our current stance of increasing pressure and wartime postering towards the country. I ask:

What will be the outcome of this stance?

I can really see only a few possible outcomes:
1. The west remains politically, economically and militarily stronger than China so we can just keep the pressure on and have little ramifications. I think this scenario has a low probability.
2. The west goes to war with China and we defeat them. This is also unlikely.
3. The west goes to war with China and we lose. This is also unlikely.
4. China rises up to be the dominant power, and then we are dealing with a dominant political, economic and military power that is pissed off with us and treats us as such. I think this is the most likely outcome of the current trajectory and stance.

My main opinion is we need to rethink how we're dealing with China with a long-term perspective, carefully thinking about the ramifications of our current warfare like actions and stance in terms of dealing with a dominant Chinese power in the future who does not have a short memory.

I just don't agree with our current actions and stance. I think it will come back to bite us quite badly.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:33am

boater, I am afraid that I have to doubt your claim to be a sinologist, unless of course you meant it in the same sense as the crowds of "epidemiologists" on the other forum. I find it hard to believe that any genuine academic would post such a shallow analysis of long complicated relationships and misrepresent so many key events, not least the nature of the Sino-Soviet and Sino-Vietnamese conflicts. You also fail to to explain the philosophy which should guide our future relationship with China. Should we be totally pragmatic and consider only Australia's interests or also consider ethical issues? In that respect it is worth looking at the reaction to Tianneman Square massacre. Bob Hawke shed tears and granted student visas and then promptly returned to business as usual. The point being that we need to recognise what is achievable in terms of human rights and refrain from making counter productive pronouncements for purely domestic consumption, which is what we have experienced under the current government.

You also mention Xi's authoritarianism as if it was a new development when it is part of a long cultural tradition predating communism by thousands of years and, while he may have stepped it up in recent years, it still cannot be compared to what existed under Mao's regime. External disapproval by countries like Australia has achieved nothing beyond generating feelings of smug self-righteousness domestically and increased hostility from China.

The west may have bent over backwards to bring China into the international system but to portray that as beneficial only to China, as you did, is a gross misrepresentation. The benefit of those decisions to Australia and other western economies surely does not need to be explained. It is those benefits, not goodwill towards China, that drove those policies.

China has a clear aim to be the dominant global power in the coming centuries. Its economic power is already challenging the US. If goodwill towards oppressed minorities was driving US-China policy, it would have taken stronger action decades ago. If the US had a genuine fear of China starting an expansionist war, their diplomatic and military focus would be on China. It is currently on Russia. The primary US concern is to maintain control of the international system for its own benefit. It is not now, never has been, and never will be an ethical actor in international affairs. The great tragedy of Australia's current position is that we have generated considerable hostility from China with a net benefit of less than zero.

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evosurfer Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:34am

Its definitely going end very very badly but it certainly does not mean
we just go belly-up and serenader. gsco how can you not see that its
China that's making war type moves we are just trying to protect ourselves.
Have you been brainwashed because your bias certainly indicates you have
been.

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H2O Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:39am

gasco and crew. Below link to an article sent to me by a mate , expat Aussie lawyer , who has lived in China for nearly 30 years - still does. He rates the author as someone who knows what he is talking about.
https://global.matthewsasia.com/insights/sinology/2021/what-is-xi-jinpin...

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gsco Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:43am

great post blindboy, one of your best ever.

evosurfer, I see both sides making wartime moves. I'm not as brainwashed as you think. I just try to get a picture that includes both perspectives. I value your perspective too.

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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:51am

If China becomes a dominant / hegemonic our current policies and approaches will have no bearing on how it treats us. It will do what it wants, regardless. How they’ve treated their SE Asian neighbours in diplomatic disputes is telling: “We are a big country, you are small countries. That is a fact”. That’s on record, July 2010 but the PRC Foreign Minister. It’s also not a one-off.
https://www.ft.com/content/a9a60f5e-48c6-11e6-8d68-72e9211e86ab

It’s literally a Melian Dialogue scenario.
https://aer.ph/china-the-philippines-and-thucydides-melian-dialogue/

I don’t agree that China’s rise to dominance is inevitable. My guess is that, while strong, the PRC (modern China) is far more brittle internally (politically and socially) than it appears. Hard to judge with the lack of transparency, but concentration of power does not make for flexibility or resilience.

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gsco Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:08am

good point etarp (re the 1st paragraph).

One thing I'd mention is an important principal in international relations and diplomacy is to create a relationship between countries for which it's not really in the interests of either country to damage.

I would argue that this has been the main guiding philosophy behind Australia's diplomatic approach to China for the past few decades, but it really seems to me that something changed during the Trump era and we are drifting away from that principal now.

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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:19am

Blindboy, I don’t agree with your assessment of the US’s posture prioritizing Russia over China. What’s your basis for this statement? The US is certainly big enough to do both, and the forces required to respond in each theatre are different diplomatic responses are different too.

There’s almost certainly a degree of synchronization between China and Russian actions to test US (and in Europe, NATO) responses to potential military actions in Taiwan and Ukraine. I think the US feels that Russia has form when it comes to military action on the ground in Ukraine.

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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:23am

Hey gsco, I don’t disagree that we certainly could have managed our shift in posture much better from a diplomacy perspective. But, it’s almost irrelevant. We’re being punished as an example to others. The problem for China is that it hasn’t worked the way they thought it would on the attitudes of the Australian population or the international community.

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Jelly Flater Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:38am

Haha… boater the Sinologist ;);)
That’s a good one!

In Australia we are largely uneducated as a people on other countries and cultures - China being a glaringly obvious one. And governments of all nations lack clarity and honesty in all ‘diplomatic’ engagements…

If you take our current government and compare it with the CCP - vastly different. Different history, different ideology, different aims and objectives.

Same basic premise tho : ‘we will protect our interests and do what is best for the people and (both leaders do this) reinforce intent by making absurd and false rhetoric about outside threats’

Look out our anti muslim hysteria that we created whilst sending our troops to foreign lands to decimate the local culture… past and present.

Look at our constant highlighting of Chinese mistreatment and human rights abuses … We conveniently dilute our own track record of our treatment of Australia’s indigenous population and pretend it is insignificant in comparison.

Consider China is rising and we facilitated it. The US facilitated it - and benefited enormously economically. Still does ;);)

Consider the narratives we are fed are false. Consider we effectively meddle in others affairs internationally and always have in order to maintain and continue manipulating global power to our advantage…

Consider the balance is shifting / has already shifted. Better hold the course ;)

So before the whole fuck China brigade comes out swinging, (by the way I in no way support or appreciate CCP mentality or behaviour) Australia must remember and acknowledge a few things…

Do we grow up learning about things like western imperial genocide as being western imperial genocide? Really.
Is our mentality accurately representative of historical acts that created and define our present day situation?

It was handy when the west’s bombers dropped nuclear bombs on Japan. They took off from China.

The Chinese ppl remember the invasions of the opium wars. They remember Nanking etc. Their government uses this stuff as propaganda and it is wrong.

Why though would our government be protecting the interests of its people, though, by forming a defence pact with Japan? Japan is an enemy of China. A big one. One they don’t / won’t forget about ;)

Sinologist man doesn’t even mention the Japan conundrum;) It’s bigger than we’d like to admit…

If we wish to point fingers and whinge about China’s legitimacy or methodology, we can’t ignore the seeds we are sowing for future generations…
Australia is not exactly a beacon of honesty and kindness.

Scotty is stirring the pot well tho.
Don’t be fooled ;)

Jelly Flater's picture
Jelly Flater's picture
Jelly Flater Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:41am

And as has happened before… why no consideration that China will implode? ;);)

We can’t rule out the fact their track record of internal discord won’t win out again.

Short memories ;)

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:42am

Hey Jelly, I think I did mention that.

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Jelly Flater Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 10:53am

Yes etarip…

‘I don’t agree that China’s rise to dominance is inevitable. My guess is that, while strong, the PRC (modern China) is far more brittle internally (politically and socially) than it appears. Hard to judge with the lack of transparency, but concentration of power does not make for flexibility or resilience.’

Excellent point ;)

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gsco Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 11:30am

Seems like the US is more likely of internally imploding right now. Which is kind of my whole point:

We're putting all our diplomacy eggs in one US agenda basket right now precisely at a point in history at which it seems most sensible to diversify our diplomatic exposures and hedge our bets a bit.

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 11:40am

Thanks H2O

This bit below is where we are headed eh.

“Many wealthy Americans justified those gaps by hailing America’s classic faith in upward mobility—the prospect that all could achieve success. But reality no longer matched the myth. On average, 90 percent of American children born in 1940 grew up to earn more than their parents, but by the early twenty-first century, that number had sunk to 50 percent. Mobility was getting swamped by inequality because wealthy families could pay for so much that extended their lead—private SAT tutors, political influence, exclusive investments, and tax advice. The further they pulled ahead, the more likely their children were to go to elite schools, meet similar spouses, and circulate in networks that delivered further access. For all the pride and inspiration wrapped up in notions of the American Dream, the World Bank had calculated that, by 2018, the United States had a lower level of intergenerational mobility than China.”

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blindboy Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 12:49pm

Xi has made "common prosperity" a key feature of his domestic policies and his record suggests that he is serious about raising living standards for all Chinese citizens. In my mind this is clearly linked to the original goal of communism which was a fair distribution of wealth. It is not necessarily logical to assume that because communism has failed so far, that it will always fail All existing attempts at communism began in nations that were both poor and seriously disrupted by war. To assume that it will fail now in a wealthy, stable nation like China, simply does not follow.

This highlights another reason for US attempts to limit Chinese power. If communism was to be rehabilitated as a succesful political philosophy and created a genuinely egalitarian society, it would pose a great threat to the neoliberalism that has subverted genuine democracy across western nations and to the wealth of the corporations which hold power in the US.

The Chinese approach has been, get with the program....or face the often brutal consequences. As a culture in which the common well being has always been considered more important than individual human rights this has been much more acceptable than it would have been elsewhere. If the program increasingly delivers what people want and the need for brutal consequences consequently declines, there would be a clear example of a path to prosperity for developing nations. I assume that most Australians, like me, would prefer not to live in such a conformist society, but China has no interest in our views, or anything much about us at all, beyond being a convenient, reliable trading partner.

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chook Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 2:09pm

There is nothing communist about communist china, just as there was nothing democratic about the German Democratic Republic of East Germany. China has private property and most importantly private ownership of the means of production.

Xi has made "common prosperity" a key feature of his domestic policies so as to ensure Xi stays as head of the party and that the party retains control over China. Everything Xi does is to ensure the continued rule of the communist party and his rule of the communist party.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 2:40pm

It's pretty funny really, even the Chinese communist party has woken up to the fact communism is shit and always fails.

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Roker Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 2:55pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

It's pretty funny really, even the Chinese communist party has woken up to the fact communism is shit and always fails.

CCP gone woke then?

Maybe some of Xi's recent decrees - limiting access to tutors, limiting access to online gaming and social media, the removal of mosque domes, even the three children policy, while not amounting to much, all fit broadly into the idea of a conformist and stable society and that Xi might be looking to paint himself as a bit more Mao than Deng.

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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 2:57pm

Indo , before you discount the People of China and it's failures...ol Xi has pulled 800 m people out of poverty.......where as in the west poverty is now increasing!

https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/china-lifting-80...

indo-dreaming wrote:

It's pretty funny really, even the Chinese communist party has woken up to the fact communism is shit and always fails.

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boater Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:00pm

Intersting discussion thanks. Would like to respond to more comments but clearly doesn't work like twitter. Seems my previous post was too light, so will try to dig a bit deeper for the audience, esp on AU-CN relations. Interested in responses / questions below.
1. Re. gsco point about bland news.com.au coverage. I agree - partly because it’s v difficult to communicate the nature of the CCP system and objectives to a western audience with western assumptions. There’s an enormous body of literature out there – too much – but one English piece that has been v influential
https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in
2. There are collorary ideas stemming from dynastic China, including of [China ruling all] “under heaven (天下), where other countries become vassal states – to conform and supply resources. The preference is not for hot war but .. .
3. Of course we all knew that China was a dictatorship under Mao, but convinced ourselves that engagement and trade was the path to opening / reform. As blindboy says we got over the Tiananmen massacre (and Hawke’s tears) in June ’89 pretty quickly. By Nov ’89 (Hawke, Keating) Aust has pinned it’s economic future on the region and the remined the dominant paradigm. I was a product of that era and have worked on projects with Chinese collaborators ever since. It’s taken a long time to admit we got it wrong. Many (incl Keating & Kissenger) cling to or try to re-invent the failed engagement strategy.
In the policy debate, it’s the engagement camp vs the realists – seeing China for what it is and what is does, not what we wish it would be. There’s a framework for you blindboy (used by the way at the highest levels).

4. The AU realists gained ascendency in 2017, when the Turnbull government responded to a wall of intelligence reports to introduce foreign interference legislation and ban Huawei. China pissed off , relations deteriorated.
5. Fast-forward to May 2020. China embarked on it’s largest ever program of economic coercion (trade barriers) against Australia. The objective of coercion is to apply economic costs on a country so that it changes it’s policy, or to motivate interest groups (esp business) to lobby the government to change policy. Or deter other countries “kill the chicken scare the monkey”杀鸡儆猴
6. The policies China was seeking to change include foreign interference policies, Huawei, human rights statements, foreign investment laws, and the research of a think tank.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/china-australia-tensions-beijing-gover...

That is, China is trying to change Australian domestic / sovereign policy and systems. And doing so by tearing up the rules and spirit of international trade treaties. Let that sink it for a moment. So no, blindboy, there’s a bit more at stake here than “domestic politics” as you claim (although most Australians stand by the government in not capitulating).
If you don’t agree with AU policy, then which of the 14 demands would you give up?

Australia would seem to be vulnerable to CN coercion – 40% of our exports go to China. But Aust has not ceded on one demand. In addition, it hasn’t really hurt us economically.
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/markets-and-resilience-fac...

I can’t stress enough how helpful this lesson is for the rest of the world and in building alliances. I’m immensely proud of Australians position and leadership on this.
This is not to say there haven’t been costs. For example, this paper models that a permanent ban on China coal imports would cost the average Australian taxpayer $24 per year.
https://theconversation.com/australia-depends-less-on-chinese-trade-than....

Another open question. Are Swellneters out there willing to forgo that sort of money (or, say, the times that) for our values, incl in China policy?

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boater Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:21pm

P.S About the virtues of Chinese communism and "common prosperity" ...... China put 800 million into poverty before it pulled them out. And remains one of the most unequal societies in the world. Countries like Bangladesh have made major progress in development / poverty without the dictatorship. China is amongst the world's lowest ranked countries for democractic rights, freedom of the press and human rights. I know this is obvious / not new - but at least take a critical apprach before reciting the propoganda.

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bonza Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:23pm

"P.S About the virtues of Chinese communism and "common prosperity" ...... China put 800 million into poverty before it pulled them out....."

Boom.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:43pm
brutus wrote:

Indo , before you discount the People of China and it's failures...ol Xi has pulled 800 m people out of poverty.......where as in the west poverty is now increasing!

https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/china-lifting-80...

indo-dreaming wrote:

It's pretty funny really, even the Chinese communist party has woken up to the fact communism is shit and always fails.

Maybe you somehow read my comment wrong?

My comment is about the Chinese Communist government keeping its name but changing its beliefs, nothing to do with the people.

ol Xi hasnt pulled them out of poverty, it's the embracing the global market and capitalism that has pulled 800 million people out of poverty (like your article says), if they were a true communist country the people would be in poverty.

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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:42pm

here guys try this one....we are buying planes /submarines / military Hardware for 100's of billions of $'s from the USA because of the threat from China....

if tomorrow China wanted to really fuck us up...all they have to do is stop all the ships and planes carrying products from China to Australia, which would no affect their bottom line at all.....but as every industry in Australia now relies on China's products we would have no building industry/electrical products/phones the list is enormous....why would China contemplate military confrontation when all they would have to do is stop the boats...and we would be completely up the proverbial creek in a barb wire canoe without a paddle!

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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:53pm

Indo , my point is that the people of China will back President Xi , because he has made their lives a lot better...they are a not a communist regime more a Totalitarian regime......he has support from the people.....

indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:

Indo , before you discount the People of China and it's failures...ol Xi has pulled 800 m people out of poverty.......where as in the west poverty is now increasing!

https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/china-lifting-80...

indo-dreaming wrote:

It's pretty funny really, even the Chinese communist party has woken up to the fact communism is shit and always fails.

Maybe you somehow read my comment wrong?

My comment is about the Chinese Communist government keeping its name but changing its beliefs, nothing to do with the people.

ol Xi hasnt pulled them out of poverty, it's the embracing the global market and capitalism that has pulled 800 million people out of poverty (like your article says), if they were a true communist country the people would be in poverty.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 4:58pm
brutus wrote:

Indo , my point is that the people of China will back President Xi , because he has made their lives a lot better...they are a not a communist regime more a Totalitarian regime......he has support from the people.....

Actually we don't really know if this is true or not.

Because

1. They don't vote at a national level so we have no idea what the majority support.

2. Those that come out and say they aren't happy with the government suddenly vanish into thin air.

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gsco Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 5:00pm

hey boater, thanks for taking the time to provide input into the China debate in here.

To be honest there is nothing new or original you've said in your response that I haven't read on news.com.au or in here, and that I couldn't rip off for myself from the western media in 5min.

Indeed, you said:

boater wrote:

Re. gsco point about bland news.com.au coverage. I agree - partly because it’s v difficult to communicate the nature of the CCP system and objectives to a western audience with western assumptions.

But then you just rattled out the standard biased western media paradigm/worldview/assumptions echo chamber junk that we see every day. You've done that twice now.

Are you aware that you're referencing sinoism, 9 news, the Lowey Institute and The Conversation? Do you think that they have any weight or accuracy at all when it comes to the China debate?

It is my assumption that a Sinologist would seek a deep understanding of Chinese civilisation, culture, language, politics and history, etc. But in your comments so far you have just regurgitated the standard western media propaganda and misinformation claptrap.

Do you have any original thoughts on China based on your own personal experience?

How many years/decades have you lived in China and practiced Mandarin Chinese, watched Chinese TV, worked directly with Chinese people, and lived daily Chinese life?

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boater Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 5:08pm

Brutus I think you're right that China will try economic coercion before war. But the lesson from 2020-21 is that it won't really hurt AU much. China hasn't bought our coal for a year and our total world exports have increased. It's largely swings and roundabouts. China stops buying our stuff (barley), someone else fills the gap in China (Canada, France) and we fill their gap (Saudi Arabia). There's a cost, but we're def not up the creek. Plus they need our big items - iron ore and wool.

I agree with Indo that introducing China to world capitalism and then buying all their stuff - and the urbanisatin and industrialistion - is the main driver of the 800 million

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blindboy Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 5:09pm

boater, you would need to back up the claim that China "put 800 million people into poverty" since I can find no evidence for it. Your claim that China is one of the most unequal countries in the world would appear to be just a straight up lie as its gini coefficient is lower than that of the US and numerous other countries. Quoting John Garnaut's views on China ignores the fact that he is likely to be biased as well as having been found unreliable when losing a significant defamation suit brought against him for accusations of bribery by a Chinese businessman. On the 14 "demands", they were not demands, merely a list of ways Australia had offended them. For the rest, we continue to engage with China, as we always have, on our own terms and for our own benefit. If attitudes in government were as tough as you suggest we would ban iron ore shipments.......have you got the figures on that? I suspect that even the dodgiest calculation would find a greater impact than $24 a head.

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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 5:37pm

boater...it's not what China buys off us , it's what we buy off them.....and how dependent we are now just like the USA/Europe on Chinese goods...our Governments (Labor or Coalition ) just keep cancelling locally made in favour of China.....
We all now know our Health system is a debacle , underfunded/under staffed....but we spend $100's billions on Military....I mean check this out...https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/australia-commits-to-3-5-bill...
In the article it says we are spending between $30-42 b on armoured vehicles ....for what?

boater wrote:

Brutus I think you're right that China will try economic coercion before war. But the lesson from 2020-21 is that it won't really hurt AU much. China hasn't bought our coal for a year and our total world exports have increased. It's largely swings and roundabouts. China stops buying our stuff (barley), someone else fills the gap in China (Canada, France) and we fill their gap (Saudi Arabia). There's a cost, but we're def not up the creek. Plus they need our big items - iron ore and wool.

I agree with Indo that introducing China to world capitalism and then buying all their stuff - and the urbanisatin and industrialistion - is the main driver of the 800 million

brutus's picture
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brutus Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 5:38pm

BB ..what if the reverse happens and China just bans all exports to Australia?

blindboy wrote:

boater, you would need to back up the claim that China "put 800 million people into poverty" since I can find no evidence for it. Your claim that China is one of the most unequal countries in the world would appear to be just a straight up lie as its gini coefficient is lower than that of the US and numerous other countries. Quoting John Garnaut's views on China ignores the fact that he is likely to be biased as well as having been found unreliable when losing a significant defamation suit brought against him for accusations of bribery by a Chinese businessman. On the 14 "demands", they were not demands, merely a list of ways Australia had offended them. For the rest, we continue to engage with China, as we always have, on our own terms and for our own benefit. If attitudes in government were as tough as you suggest we would ban iron ore shipments.......have you got the figures on that? I suspect that even the dodgiest calculation would find a greater impact than $24 a head.

etarip's picture
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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 7:37pm
gsco wrote:

hey boater, thanks for taking the time to provide input into the China debate in here.

To be honest there is nothing new or original you've said in your response that I haven't read on news.com.au or in here, and that I couldn't rip off for myself from the western media in 5min.

Indeed, you said:

boater wrote:

Re. gsco point about bland news.com.au coverage. I agree - partly because it’s v difficult to communicate the nature of the CCP system and objectives to a western audience with western assumptions.

But then you just rattled out the standard biased western media paradigm/worldview/assumptions echo chamber junk that we see every day. You've done that twice now.

It is my assumption that a Sinologist would seek a deep understanding of Chinese civilisation, culture, language, politics and history, etc. But in your comments so far you have just regurgitated the standard western media propaganda and misinformation claptrap.

Do you have any original thoughts on China based on your own personal experience?

How many years/decades have you lived in China and practiced Mandarin Chinese, watched Chinese TV, worked directly with Chinese people, and lived daily Chinese life?

Your counter argument seems to be…. How Chinese are you? You don’t have to be Chinese to form a view on how China conducts itself on a world stage, surely. Are we going to apply that standard to all commentary on international affairs? I guess BB’s Fuk Amerika thread is bunk then? I think boater has provided a more than reasonable basis for his position and experience in the field. As have you, fwiw.
Not so convinced about BB though, other than being perpetually angry at just about everyone…

etarip's picture
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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 7:48pm

Lowy publish some really interesting content on China. They’ve got some deeply qualified people doing it too. What’s your alternative?

Or is it just a Western media echo chamber?
Go through this list please, and rip apart the credentials of any or all of these people:
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/people/experts

For the wider Swellnet wider audience, who don’t speak Mandarin, haven’t spent decades living in China, and who perhaps want to gain ‘a’ perspective on current affairs, I commend this resource:
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/issues/china

etarip's picture
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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 8:57pm
blindboy wrote:

boater, you would need to back up the claim that China "put 800 million people into poverty" since I can find no evidence for it. Your claim that China is one of the most unequal countries in the world would appear to be just a straight up lie as its gini coefficient is lower than that of the US and numerous other countries. Quoting John Garnaut's views on China ignores the fact that he is likely to be biased as well as having been found unreliable when losing a significant defamation suit brought against him for accusations of bribery by a Chinese businessman. On the 14 "demands", they were not demands, merely a list of ways Australia had offended them. For the rest, we continue to engage with China, as we always have, on our own terms and for our own benefit. If attitudes in government were as tough as you suggest we would ban iron ore shipments.......have you got the figures on that? I suspect that even the dodgiest calculation would find a greater impact than $24 a head.

Blindboy, Ross Garnaut was the ambassador to China for 3 years. He might have somewhat of a sense of things from both sides of the equation. That’s what diplomats are good at.

What bias exactly are you accusing him of?

etarip's picture
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etarip Monday, 10 Jan 2022 at 9:24pm

Got my Garnaut’s mixed up. My bad. John not Ross. Related… and I guess John would have lived in China as a kid…
I will ask you though Blindy and gsco, did you read the John Garnaut article / speech that boater linked? What parts of it do you take exception to? Or is it a ‘vibe’?