Swellnet and politics
One of the issues that is widely mentioned in the rise of Trump and other populists is the ability of people to seek information and debate from areas of the mass media and social media where they will find those who agree with them. The viewers of Fox News are unlikely to be readers of The New Yorker and vice versa. Conservative Christians go to Facebook pages that reinforce their views. LGBT supporters go to their own pages and so on.
Swellnet, being mainly concerned with surfing, has no natural political constituency. Those contributing to the forums represent the full spectrum of opinion. This, from time to time, drives us towards what might be called incivility. Being just as guilty as anyone else on that issue I am not in a position to moralise, but what I will say is that we should value this place for the diversity of opinion it provides and hope that it never becomes an echo chamber.
BB, some brave assumptions there. Eg " viewers of Fox are unlikely to be readers of the New Yorker" ... hmmm. Also, SN contributors 'represent the full spectrum of opinion'.
I would guess that is your 'gut' view. And there in, is the conundrum. How and where we all gain our opinions and 'facts'. It seems we can't from mainstream media. We cant from the Internet. So where to now ...
Maybe if I bring it down to local references you will see the point. Does anyone read the Daily Telegraph and The Sydney Morning Herald? Do people watch the SBS News as well as Fox News? The increase in media outlets allows people to seek outlets that confirm their existing opinions and prejudices. The Internet takes this to a whole new level. My point is that it is only in sites that do not specialise in news or opinion pieces that you are likely to get any real diversity. For me that has always been true of Swellnet. If it is not a complete cross-section it is much broader than any other site I visit.
It is always interesting to read the views and opinions of both the front and back bench members of the swellnet political scene. From the public gallery it is worth while to have so much information debated.
My political views generally lean a little off centre to the right, but i actually follow left leaning media ABC & RRR radio (mostly because i hate commercial radio advertising and commercial music)
And online i get my media from ABC and SBS.
Then social media wise most of what i see is mostly far left as most of my friends have far left views.
RRR in particular far lefts views can drive me absolutely crazy though.
My experience too BB.
I appreciate the diversity of views.
its becoming more prevalent that journalists are specialising in opinion tarted up as facts. truth in social media is what people make it these days. gone are the days of clearly labelling where your information came from. popularity now trumps all.
too true happy
i remain optimistic though. :)
Captain Scomo just rose Ita's Butt up onto ABC highchair... (5 year contract)
Media Watch (Paul Barry): PM has bypassed... ABC Independent Panel shortlist
Independent Panel was set up to depoliticise ABC/SBS appointments (Fail)
Labor source notes :
* Ita Butrose served on former LNP leader's Panel
* Fundraisers for LNP candidates
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/former-abc-chair-maurice-newman-...
Note: 'Appointment has nothing to do with commercialising PM's ABC'
What do you expect from a marketing man?
And here's yet another surprise!!!!
https://www.afr.com/news/politics/preelection-anger-as-taxpayers-foot-th...
Outgoing lnp PM interfered to dismiss non lnp female ABC news journo +Manager
ABC Chair resigned - Colluding with PM's request to sack News journo + Manager
[Whole of Oz screamed more political interference for ABC] ...Please Aunty!
Incoming lnp PM over rides panel to appoint Glossy Mag Queen to ABC Chair
Captain's Queen has never applied for the job as she has no Digital Media Skills?
ABC lnp Ita Buttrose name is now muck.(Scomo sends Oz women back 20 yrs)
Back to the future! From these very threads:
"Doggo: "So start questioning why they (LNP) won..."
THAT IS THE QUESTION INDEED.
I THINK THE CORPORATE MEDIA IS A HUGE PART OF THE ANSWER.
Circumvention, by all means, is necessary.
"Don't hate the media, become the media." - Eric Reed Boucher.
What we're doing and can do RIGHT HERE! ON SWELLNET!"
"(I think) the role of activist groups, the union movement, and grass-roots Labor faithful in direct on-the-ground and online engagement, which bypassed the corpo-media and usual channels, is interesting for the future. The impact of Get-up, say in Tassie? Bernardi for one is interested."
Social media as a tool is playing a bigger role as each year and election passes. Coupled with old-school face-to-face 'human' connection as well. Corporate media influence is the toughest edifice to crack but you've got to look for the fissures, and shine some light on 'em and up 'em.
YOU CAN DEFINITELY DO THAT ON HERE.
To paraphrase Hunter S Thompson, "subversion is beautiful...like a brick in the face of a cop!"
There's always room for Eric Reed Boucher too!"
"A coupla quotes:
"Some regard newspapers as dinosaurs, but this is mistaken in my view. Newspapers continue to set a daily agenda, particularly in politics. They are responsible for the majority of online news which in turn feeds blogs and social media. Radio and television feed off newspaper coverage, creating an echo chamber, particularly in small state capitals."
"However, we believe there is an arguable case that the Murdoch newspapers may well have helped set an agenda for the election campaign, by their selection and presentation of issues. This may have occurred directly through its influence on its readership, but it may have also occurred because of ‘inter-media agenda-setting’. Studies of inter-media agenda-setting suggest that newspapers have a powerful influence on the news agenda of television and other media (Shoemaker & Vos, 2009; Atwater, Fico, & Pizante, 1987; Golan, 2006). In the case of Australia, News Corp dominates the newspaper industry. This continuing dominance was underlined by a new study during the election campaign which found that News Corp titles account for 59 per cent of daily newspaper sales nationwide and 65 per cent of capital city and national daily newspapers which, the study said, ‘are by far the most influential in setting the news agenda’ (Flew & Goldsmith, 2013). The study also pointed out that 14 of the 21 metro daily and Sunday newspapers were owned by News Corp, making the Australian newspaper market ‘among the most concentrated in the democratic world’."
Election 2019 [Postal Resignations Tally Board]
Turnbull's 1st half term Govt...(Counted)
[15] resignations
Current LNP Govt Resignations (Pre Postal Resignations count underway)
[2.1] Prime Ministers [ Turnbull ] + ~~x//x={DUTTO}=x\\x~~ + ( *ProMo* )
[3] Deputy Leaders [Truss] + { BAD A$$ Barnaby } + (That boring Bloke)
[4] Disqualifications (re: Alien Invaders)
[37] Resignations (Tally is right!) & Media are not raising Toll on election eve?
Paid up Media steer around record size resignation Billboard [>> LNP Toll 37 <<]
[1] Double resignation (That 'd be our dumbass Gold Coaster Ciobo) So sorry Oz!
[15] Hitler Youth marched out of the Young Fed' National Party
[2] Young Fed' Liberal Party leaders had a fight over who gets to sell off our ABC.
That's the state of play fellow Swellnetonians...No! I'm no Ant Bully! He's asleep!
It could be BB, that if you are reaching out for news and opinions from the spectrum of newspapers to the various forms of social media, that your views are at least subconsciously being open to being shaped externally; a bit like a cork in the ocean being influenced by the winds of the day; irrespective of whether those winds blow with fact or fiction?
What if you take the view that everyone putting pen to paper is trying to manipulate the reader, and trying to elbow others out of the way to get more access and control of the steering wheel? Cynical, but a truism.
What if you choose to not engage with any of it? What if you have contempt for all of it and anyone pushing their agendas, and can sniff those manipulating from 40 paces or in the first sentence?
Why not rely on your own values-set and your own intuition that is fed by your own moral compass, the cynicism mentioned above and live your life with your own authenticity based on your own personal integrity that rejects any form of populism or intended manipulation? In this way, I'd argue you've got a much better and more consistent chance of being closer to the truth of each matter that presents itself to you, rather than from other sources.
An interesting thought Freddie but how do you get your information in the first place to apply your views to current events? If I nominate what I consider reliable sources for the simple facts of an issue, I will be howled down by those who disagree.
I just see history repeating itself over and over, and I more or less see the same machinations at work at every level of human interaction, whether that be what goes on with the interactions of kids in the school yard, to bigger 'kids' in the world of business, politics and geo-politics.
It's like personality types. Once you understand the type, you can recognise it whenever and wherever it appears in any walk of life; and can subsequently predict with a fair degree of certainty what will come from this persons mouth and/or their behaviour.
It is difficult to get or know facts about anything BB. Why would you buy shares in an ASX listed company on the basis of any company's prospectus? Every word in a prospectus is glammed up to the max and telling you what you want to hear. Anything that in any way relates to unlawful, unethical, unprofitable, wasteful, incompetence, ineptitude, greed, stupidity etc etc is all hidden in a dark room under lock and key. You're never going to get 1mm of objectivity from this source of information; therefore you cannot make a valid and reliable decision based on this info.
So it's impossible to know anything with certainty in this day and age, other than standing on time honoured principles, and applying them to everything and everyone. Is there inherent truth and goodness radiating from a person or issue? On the other hand, is your intuition telling you that you smell something fishy and rotten emanating from the words or behaviours shown by a person?
On all the issues challenging humanity and the planet now, we already know what "goodness" is telling us intuitively- that we cannot continue to rape, pillage and plunder the planet; that we can and must turn it around with loving stewardship of our environment and stopping any activity that is detrimental to the better health and functioning of our planet and all the ecosystems. When you apply this to specific issues like maintaining the oil industry, nuclear energy, pollution etc, the facts are there for all to see. It's the vested interests maintaining their grip on power and the flow of wealth to themselves that we need to turn our attention to. Our personal position therefore is fairly easy to know when you look at it like that.
So I'm not too sure that a search is required on a lot of issues, just feel and sense the inherent goodness/badness with the person or the words/actions they are sprouting. Besides, I believe in the old saying "empty vessels make the most noise" Why go to a person shouting from the rooftops? That's looking in the wrong direction me thinks? The answers lie in the macro, with implementation in the micro. Having a thousand micro battles with the empty vessels is futile, and I certainly don't waste my breath on that. I hope those rambling thoughts help in some way.
"So it's impossible to know anything with certainty in this day and age"
Now that rabbit hole is deep! How can we you anything at all? How can you know the whole world is nothing but an illusion implanted in your mind by an evil demon no less powerful than deceitful?
OK, I'm taking the piss a little there, and you're probably right that there's no way to know anything with absolute certainty - but surely by observing the world and applying some rational thought we can judge which competing "fact" is most plausibly true? And surely the more information we seek out, the better judgement we're likely to make?
In face to face transactions, or even when you are watching someone on a screen, what we call gut reaction is really our very sophisticated skills of observation and inference based on the non-verbal cues. It is much harder if you are just listening to the spoken word and written material requires a completely different set of skills, most of which we are aware of using. Point being trusting your gut can work pretty well as long as you are not dealing with actors, con men or politicians all of whom train themselves to send out false cues.
not really BB.
Many, many studies have shown that human beings are terrible at detecting lies. Face to face, written word doesn't matter.
Unfortunately we ARE dealing with actors, thieves and conmen;
"This is the world we enter every day, on our laptops and our smartphones. It has become a battleground where the ambitions of nation states and ideologues are being fought – using us.
We are the bounty: our social media feeds; our conversations; our hearts and minds. Our votes. Bots influence trending topics and trending topics have a powerful effect on algorithms.
Know how to manipulate information structure and you can manipulate reality."
In the 60s, information theorist Marshall McLuhan had this to say:
“World War III will be a guerrilla information war with no divisions between military and civilian participation.”
Even if you're over the politics, check this out for a discussion on the reality of the tech.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart...
Good read Andy. Pretty sure old mate Blob was on their payroll.
I can't remember the name of the fictional show I was watching but it showed as part of the story line how a small video was (secretly) shot, and then shared (despite being out of context and a blatant lie as to the exact circumstances ) with a particular tag line. This was then picked up by 75 or so bots spread all around the world who disseminated onto other influencers and then it became viral. The ability of a single viral post to alter public opinion en masse is nothing short of the weaponisation of information. Welcome to the 21st!
To dodge some of your web browsing being used to specifically target marketing algorithms to you, open the settings on your iPhone, iPad or whatever and click on the safari icon. Open it and change your web browser to DuckDuckGo. It won't track your browsing history or share your IP address with third parties.
Increasingly, I find politics - and I'm a political junkie - to be superficial, with different players but the same patterns unfolding in a version of Nietzsche's eternal recurrence. So repetitive is it, you can dip in and out without missing a great deal. I did that recently, not reading a single paper or website for a few weeks, yet I was up to speed within minutes of returning to civilisation. You've no doubt done the same yourself.
Except for the very big stories that only come around now and again, and generally unfold over weeks anyway, it's quite easy to go bush, even if you stay at home - just switch it all off without really missing much at all.
I like websites such as Aeon which skirt the political bullshit and only deal with big ideas. Shit that doesn't change in an election cycle.
All that said, the link by Andy was pretty damn terrifying.
Makes you realise just how much of it is a soap operatic distraction which benefits everyone involved except for the man on the street.
And I think that’s the whole point.
As for Andy’s link.....yeah, nah.
I’ve never received a single piece of political advertising .
And you really think that Brexit and Trump were caused by bots and Facebook ads .....please.
But this is the Guardian . Remember what John Pilger said about the Guardian. He also had a bit to say about the BBC, which is held up as another paragon of virtue at the start of the article.
I was hoping you'd look past the politics Blowin.
I tend to agree with Stu, if you understand the basics of how politics, the media and corporations are intertwined, you can turn your back on the bullshit minutiae of partisan politics, which is largely a distraction, and think about more productive things, political or not.
Sort of took it on face value and speed read it as there’s shit going on here. I’ll check it out again once the bullshit has died down.
"...I’ve never received a single piece of political advertising .
And you really think that Brexit and Trump were caused by bots and Facebook ads .....please."
Me neither!
Same with political polls etc. Nothing, ever.
And I'm a political junkie too!
Really odd me thinks. Especially when you hear the rubbish the guardian and co. are peddling re. bots, the internet, and influence.
Possibly it's to do with settings and liking stuff, because I religiously don't 'like' stuff, as I reckon it's all a bit pathetic. But when I think of all the politics stuff I read - often weird odd ball stuff - it makes no sense that I'm not targeted.
Also, I've never ever known anyone at all to be called for jury duty. Until yesterday when I found out the very very nice, very middle class, super smart young girl from work got called up.
It's enough to make one think our society isn't as 'equal' as we're lead to believe...
I got called up for jury duty.
got out of it.
it's feeling a little bit of crass around here...
btw: you all know blowin is a russian troll bot, right?
I'd like to do it. Especially some of the recent cases.
How'd you get out of it?
Why'd you get out of it?
If you are on the electoral roll you can be called for jury duty. Usually they take a pool of names and use them for a while so if you are not selected first time around you can be called again. It is usually easy to get out of on the basis they don't really want people who are not prepared to the job ......... because it is a job and one that often has huge responsibilities.
Oh and sypkan you should let Putin know that the thousand or do full time trolls and the dedicated bot net at the Internet Research Agency are just a waste of time yeh and better let the Koch bros know that the several hundred million they spent funding climate denialists was just pissed up against the wall.
good work, freeride.
as a convicted criminal, i was incensed when recently called up for jury duty. i earned my exemption.
My brothers got Parkinson’s and was called up for jury duty. Because he still works a physical job , he gets tired really easily and he struggles to think clearly due to his medication and the disease . Because his daily life is difficult for him he’ll get mail sent to our parents house so mum can sort out his official stuff such as keeping his bills paid etc
He received a call up for jury duty and tried to plea out of it . The person in charge didn’t believe him that he was sick so he made an effort and got a note from his specialist which cost him a bit of work time and dollars anyway .
The ranger ( sheriff ? ) in charge was off him , thought he was taking the piss and gave him a big fine for putting an incorrect address on his government paperwork out of spite.
Guy suffering Parkinson’s. Refusing to go on disability. Still works , pays taxes. Doing life HARD.
Fuck the government.....never , ever trust them.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that the influence, and it's reach, has been grossly overstated.
Mainly by people who just cannot comprehend the election of trump. It seems, to me anyway, these people are grasping at anything and everything possible, but the real reasons trump got elected.
They are truly in total denial - still (two and a half years on). They appear to be totally incapable, on all fronts, to percieve just how wrong of a candidate hilary was, and how they themselves possibly contributed to the election of trump. Total fucking denial, years on. And I'm not referring to you at all, before you get all narky.
Thinking about jury duty, they must screen the profiles somehow, and that's probably a good thing, as there are some people who just are not fit enough to do the job, mentally, ie. too dumb to even try to be objective.
There is no selection on the pool but there is a selection process for each trial.
I just think you are unbelievably naive about the role Russia played in Trump's election. Trump's role is not yet clear but the impact of Russia is well established.
A diabolically unfair situation for your brother in law, but one more representative of structural inequality in society broadly and the selfish actions of an ill-equipped and spiteful individual in a particular role - someone we’ve all come across regardless of sector, industry or organisation.
“Government” isn’t some singular hydra out to get you...
I just said I had work on and couldn't take time off without putting my family under financial strain (true).
They sent me a letter back saying I was excused.
I did jury duty a few years ago on a murder/manslaughter trial (testing a point of law re provocation). It really was an eye-opening experience - 10 of the 12 jurors came to the conclusion that they'd judge on what they thought the law ought to be rather than what it was (openly saying as much during our deliberations). Another was kicked off the jury at the 11th hour because he discovered he couldn't make a judgement either way due to his Buddhist convictions. Probably shouldn't say too much more lest I identify the trial, but boy was that a traumatic (I still flinch around kitchen knives sometimes) yet really worthwhile experience.
FWIW the case was retried.
Well I'm off for jury duty first thing tomorrow morning - gotta say I'm quite curious and looking forward to it.
Good on you Andy...important job....Regarding political views, I think Scott Morro is underrated and would be the best choice for Australia right now. He is tolerant of every ones views, has a direction in mind and is good at paying bills. I was pleased to hear him have a climate budget as well which is what the people want. Even if you like Labor, at least wait until Scott has paid all the debt off before you vote Labor back in for another go at our credit card. I also think Ita Buttrose will bring a bit of professional balance to the ABC because it was getting a bit out of control and like watching a Shorten inspired union meeting during political interviews.
To be fair to all Pollys, we have got it made here in Australia and most of them on all sides of Govt genuinely care about us regardless of their skill set. Look at Pauline, now there's a bit of fun to watch right there. Europe and China are the ones to really watch, as they are becoming bullies where its their way or the highway and its sad watching England trying to get Europe's fish hooks out of its back. They will get there and be free again. Me personally, I'm a conservative socialist, I love the old family values and a community that shares everything. I like the world back a little in time, where communities were safe places, where you could leave your board on the front lawn and no one would steal it, where the drug problem was your mates backyard plant at his nans house, or dad having a few too many and wobbling down the highway in the holden. Where family's went to church and gave thanks at dinner. Where minority groups didn't tell everyone "How its gunna be". Where kids porn was nicking dads playboy mag. There are many improvements in modern society and good things that appeal to my Christian socialist views but there is too much darkness and bullying that needs to be dealt with as well. We need strong laws but fair ones. We need more rehab prisons and prison farms to sort people out and train them, better regional centres that make stuff we usually buy from china so people go west. Become a more self sufficient nation that creates stuff for us to use from its resources rather than flog it off cheap. We've got it all here, we just have to share our ideas with the Politicians in a polite and balanced way. Write to your local Polly with your ideas, I've seen some of mine get used over the years as they need input from us and cant think of everything. I like Gladys too, please vote for Gladys if you in NSW.....Oh and my reminiscing of old Australia.. the boards were shit then...could catch big waves easy but couldn't turn em...boards are awesome now...don't go back there young hipsters...
Sorry to let facts ruin your fantasies there Optimist but national debt has DOUBLED under this government and where has the money gone? Well sizeable chunks to pay for exorbitant contracts to run the detention centres which never went to tender or have been open to public scrutiny and in the case of Manus, with a suspicion of bribery to PNG politicians. Oh and then there were funds for indigenous people diverted to non-indigenous consultants who used it to campaign AGAINST indigenous issues. But hey they did a great job of sucking every last dollar out of the welfare system driving single parents into ever deeper poverty....... but don't worry Jesus told him to do it. He can have a chat anytime he likes! Loony policy from a complete loon.
Labors billions in interest bills from the last time they were in, that's where the money went and the debt shot up BB and that's why we don't want it to happen again. Learn from our mistakes unless you name is Dory. Being a broke country is crap. Vote Lib/Nat.
At best you're ill-informed. At worst you're deluding yourself.
Liberals socialist??
"Labors billions in interest bills from the last time they were in ..." more lies, more bullshit. Optimist=fact free zone
...and I missed this little gem before.
"I like the world back a little in time, where communities were safe places, "
Yeh a great time when:
* Police wouldn't intervene in domestic "disputes"
* When homosexuality was illegal and poofter bashing a national sport.
* Racial discrimination was written into law.
* There was no recognition of mental health issues or support for them.
* There was no single parent pension.
* There were effectively zero women in politics and company boards.
* You could get your head punched in for having long hair.
I am always amzed when people swallow that John Howard-white picket fence bullshit when, even if they are too young to remember, the history is absolutely clear on how appalling social conditions were for anyone but a straight white conformist male.
BB go back and read what I wrote again, they are the improvements I was talking about.
Why we represent something important!