What's what?

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Shatner'sBassoon started the topic in Friday, 6 Nov 2015 at 7:48pm

AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.

LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 2:51pm

Globalism is the petrol on the fire of inequality.

No longer is the value of many peoples employment measured against others locally it's measured against others globally.

And when done so their value often becomes worthless or close to worthless and jobs go offshore, in other cases where jobs don't go offshore their value must be contained to ensure they are viable.

Meanwhile those who's jobs can't go offshore or cant be replaced continue to increase in value, the only thing that stops their wages increasing is the ability for others to pay for their value.

Hence you get a larger gap between the have's and have nots.

You cant change equality if you support globalism.

(same goes for technology which can also reduce or restrict wage increases/value of workers)

IMHO it's inevitable its like a game of monopoly everyone starts equal but by the end of the game someone holds most of the wealth.

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factotum commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 4:00pm

B.I., you do realise that this international student visa scheme occurs in every state? And that this particular visa (sub class 500) was introduced by the Turnbull government?

Now you'd be on stronger grounds, without the emotive hyperbole, if you say drew some correlation with the coalition Gonski underfund (or private school overfund if you like) and the 'slippery slope' argument the MBs clumsily (or is that deliberately?) half present here to bolster their 'immigration of all stripes is bad and curing it will cure all ills' shtick.

Anyway, read that neo-liberal economics primer above? Seriously. It's quite a discussion starter and/or feeder.

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factotum commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 4:16pm

How good is Australia?

Let me count the ways...

https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2019/06/05/australian-econ...

"The federal budget published by Treasury on April 2 and endorsed by the Department of Finance in its PEFO (Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Outlook) weeks later shows our key economic departments don’t have a clue about what the economy has already done, let alone what it might be about to do.

It looks like years of politicisation has run down Treasury to the point where budgets are prepared on patently specious grounds, such as the nonsensical assumption that our birth rate is about to start rising instead of falling. Those sorts of silly assumptions are necessary to make the better-than-reality figures the government wanted."

Allied to that, how's this item request that has gone quietly viral in certain academic circles this week! You couldn't make it up!

But never fear, our Prime Marketer ProMo is here!

https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2019/06/08/looks-like-pm-scott-morr...

How good is Australia indeed?!

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Blowin commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 5:09pm

Facto - irrespective of who introduced the education deal , the ALP isn’t just condoning it , they’re expanding it.

You know it’s problematic and that’s why you’ve tried to appoint the blame to the LNP.

And enough of your “ immigration is responsible for everything wrong “ straw man, of course it’s not , but it’s responsible for contributing to more problems than it is solutions.

PS Pray Scomo is sent weeping from the public service. But then again .....who’s his replacement ?

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Laurie McGinness commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 5:33pm

There is no mention of the privatisation of primary schools in the link. It projects one million school age students with a current cap of under 6000 on international students. It does not state what increase has been proposed. The numbers suggest that the whole thing is just another beat up.

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Blowin commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 5:58pm

Laurie - are you telling me you can’t discern between public and private education ?

When a publicly funded school begins to receive students who individually pay for their education it has been privatised.

As for the numbers indicating a beat- up.....how would you know ? You don’t know the numbers.

Using the progression of the tertiary education sector as a guide - which is not untoward whatsoever- then our primary schools are looking to become utterly compromised, government cash cows.

Which inevitably leads towards wholesale removal of the education system from public hands.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-18/australia-hosting-unprecedented-n...

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Blowin commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 6:02pm

.

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 7:07pm

A chick my wife was working with and become friends with who was out here from Germany exhausted all her holiday and working visa options or something and became a student that i think somehow could lead her to permeant residency.

She didn't actually care about the course.

I think a few of her Phillipino friends relatives also do similar scams, the whole system is up for abuse.

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factotum commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 9:35pm

Do some homework. ANY homework. Emotively proclaiming stuff doesn't give it any extra gravitas. If anything it detracts. Well, for thinking peoples.

"Which inevitably leads towards wholesale removal of the education system from public hands."

Keep voting in conservative governments. Simple.

Cooked. Deep fried, Seppo style.

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Blowin commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 5:44am

I see you’d rather focus on myself than the ALP trying to turn primary schools into a cash cow.

Maybe put up an argument, ANY argument, as to why the ALP is engaging in the traditionally LNP tendency of rapaciously privatising a public system irrespective of consequences.

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factotum commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 12:19pm

"As for the numbers indicating a beat- up.....how would you know ? You don’t know the numbers."

Are these the kind of numbers you like to go with, B.I?

"You’re talking about the 1 percent who try to learn and I’m talking about the 99 percent who just show up in order to gleam access to the benefits of our society."

You feel those numbers, hey?

And did I say, "do some homework. ANY homework. Emotively proclaiming stuff doesn't give it any extra gravitas. If anything it detracts. Well, for thinking peoples"?

And did you then use the word "rapaciously", B.I??

As I said:

"B.I., you do realise that this international student visa scheme occurs in every state? And that this particular visa (sub class 500) was introduced by the Turnbull government?

Now you'd be on stronger grounds, without the emotive hyperbole, if you say drew some correlation with the coalition Gonski underfund (or private school overfund if you like) and the 'slippery slope' argument the MBs clumsily (or is that deliberately?) half present here to bolster their 'immigration of all stripes is bad and curing it will cure all ills' shtick."

This scheme is happening in the State governments of NSW and SA and Tasmania too, let alone in Queensland, WA, and Victoria.

"Rapaciously", but?

As for the MBers beat up of Victoria in particular? Well...

An aside. Have you ever clicked on the hyperlinks in their articles? Usually in other news/opinion sites hyperlinks are used to bolster what's been written by linking to a source that verifies or backs up the claim put forward. A citation from a primary source or even a third party at least.

Well, not the case for our MBers in the main.

Your initial article in question, B.I., for example, has hyperlinks that lead one to yet another MB article. And then in there the process is repeated. And repeated. And repeated. It's a trip into the MB wormhole! Check this article that eventually popped up!

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/05/vic-government-wants-internatio...

Anyway, B.I. check out how primary and secondary education is funded and managed in Australia. And then work on your thesis from there.

There's something to work on!

Students learn and shit sticks when they explore and uncover stuff themselves.

Apparently.

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tubeshooter commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 1:02pm

Public or private...Should the playing field be levelled ?
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/humans-of-betoota/private-school-princip...

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factotum commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 2:44pm

Funny stuff TS, and more of a concern for mine.

As is this...

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/keneally-expo...

"This article updates some of the data on that chaos which confirms the Department of Home Affairs continues to struggle. The Department’s funding over the next few years, together with its plans for visa privatisation, suggest the Government has no effective method for regaining control over our air borders."

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 5:09pm

Pretty simple solution scrap onshore asylum seekers visa's make it an offshore system only..

As you can see from the article the whole system is being abused in past year 61% applicant were from Malaysia 13% China, 92% rejection rate.

Has nothing to do with what government is in power it's about the system in place (allowing people to apply for protection visa's onshore).

Why are numbers increasing?....because information gets spread most likely by immigration agents etc that you can game the system no doubt the problem will only grow.

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Laurie McGinness commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 5:40pm

So refugees apply for protection in the country they are fleeing from? Absurd and insulting stuff Indo. Or maybe you meant that some other country should very conveniently do our processing for us. Either way it is an abdication of our humanitarian responsibilities.

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:06pm

Obviously you dont know how the system works.

A person doesn't become an asylum seeker until they actually flee the country they are from.

And they cant apply to be recognised as a refugee with the UNHCR until they are outside of their own country.

The majority of our refugee intake is made up of asylum seekers and refugees who apply offshore they DONT set foot in Australia until they are granted one of the related offshore refuge/humanitarian visas.

They either apply via the UNHCR for resettlement and the UNHCR refer them to us ideally giving preface to those at high risk or refugees who will never be able to return home like stateless refugees or they apply directly to Australia for resettlement through an Australia embassy or online. (again all processing is done offs

So if you dont believe onshore protection visas should be scraped, whats your solution??? to problem of increasing numbers of applicants applying for protection visas that is clogging up the system, as we know the majority are in no way asylum seekers/refugees they are just buying time to work etc.

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factotum commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:04pm

"Has nothing to do with what government is in power it's about the system in place (allowing people to apply for protection visa's onshore)."

Um, you might want to have a think about that one, V.I.

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Laurie McGinness commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:10pm

So, as I said before Indo, your expectation is that asylum seekers should have registered in another country before arriving in Australia.

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:40pm

@Factum So please explain how Labor would be able to prevent this problem???

Maybe you are the one that needs to think about that one.

it's not a problem that just Australia is facing it's happening all around the world, any which way people can they are trying to enter and stay in countries, legally, illegal, false documents and identity, gaming visas etc

In regard to the above problem only solutions are either:

-Scrap onshore protection visas

-Make processing times so short its pointless to apply for these visas unless legit, which is much easier said than done with the numbers we see, you would need put on huge numbers of staff and just be more vague in the processing and just let non genuine people slip through the cracks.

Even then it's only worthwhile if you can make the processing times so short that there not worth the time to apply for, but even then if rejected than can appeal and the stop watch starts again.

- Make it harder for people from countries like Malaysia and China that are abusing the system to be able to get tourist and student visa's.

But as it is its not easy, it's not like us who can often just get a visa on arrival, they have to apply well ahead of time, they need to prove they have funds to ensure they can afford to holiday in some cases they even need medicals or proof they have something to go back too.

The problem is these days people go through agent's that know the system and how to jump hurdles and what to say etc.

@Laurie

Yeah well yes that's what millions of asylum seekers do they apply with the UNHCR to be a refugee....literally millions of asylum seekers have done this and have been classed as refugees, and million of refugees are waiting to be given the chance of a new life.

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factotum commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:58pm
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Laurie McGinness commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 7:01pm

So make other countries deal with the vast bulk of claims, then we accept a few of those whose claims are accepted. Yeh right.

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sypkan commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 9:41am

It appears you guys are quite happy that the refugee system's efficiency, efficacy and credibility are being totally undermined by people gaming the system?

you all made a big hoo haa about plane arrivals vastly exceeding boat arrivals, then when the focus is on them, you all make the same excuses for the plane arrivals.

puzzling to say the least... or not...

…clearly the agenda is not necessarily helping people in real need

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sypkan commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 12:04pm

most interesting the little education discussion going on above as well.

our main propaganda agent for the ALP, has been telling us for years now on here, …not to worry, and get onboard, as the ALP is doing a massive rethink on the whole neoliberal thingy. And that this is patently obvious in the clear differentiation between the two major party's policies '...with some of the starkest difference for decades between the two parties...', …or something like that, …apparently, maybe...

somehow ...many of us failed to notice....

Anyway, whilst the definition of 'neoliberalism' remains somewhat slippery, I'll tell you what it definitely is, the privatisation and selling of public goods, assets, and services to turn a profit.

And, the globalisation of capital to encourage investment.

both of these ideas are somewhat simplistic, ideological, idealistic, and fraught with all sorts of dangers, but that's been the accepted wisdom for 3 - 4 decades now.

now, neoliberalism has been a whittling away of a process. A steady, subtle, stealth like changing of the norms, so subtle, and long in it's process, we have long forgotten how some things used to be done, and what are the natural domains of government.

but one thing that seemed stoic and untouchable in this process was public schools. high schools and especially primary schools. tertiary education too for a while, but unfortunately that's long fallen. Yet childhood education seemed ro remain totally untouchable... for a while...

to see you guys defend the indefensible re. the undermining and privatisation of primary schools, is sad sad sad to say the least.

the partisan blinders are stronger and more destructive than ever across the globe, but you guys are in territory now that can only be described as truly pathetic

admit it, its a shit idea, totally undermining what is left of a once great education system.

And the fact it all just appears to be to serve china makes it even worse

You guys can claim racism all you want, but until someone can stand up in parliament and say "…australia is done with chinese influence and investment, as it is no longer serving oz, we are only serving it..." until that time, real racism will only grow

And, someone also needs to say "...china is so far up the arse of the labor party their eyes are popping and can no longer see straight.." or something to that effect, because its just becoming embarrassing now...

libs are also broken in this regard, but labor is really really broken

The undermining, devaluing, and selling off of our public education system to a foreign power is the definition of neoliberalism - extreme neoliberalism - in it's worst possible form, and labor is all in with it

there's nothing incremental about labor moving away from neoliberalism, they are flat out moving, but still in the wrong direction!!

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factotum commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 11:05am

TL:DR, Sepp.

Kinda like this on the previous page?

"A very neat summation and a must-read for those who like to bandy round terms like 'neo-liberalism'.

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2019/jun/06/socialism-for-the-ric...

How good is Australia??"

Get a grip.

(Actually your TL:DR, Sepp, is more in your previous ball-park of 'Totes Lightweight : Dry Retch' or 'Transparent Lies : Don't Register'?)

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sypkan commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 7:46pm

no, no "get a grip"

australia's public education system seemed to be one of the only things untouchable in this race to the bottom of selling what's not yours to sell, but you don't care, as long as the appearance is labor comes out on top

parhetic facto

how about you get a clue...

or a moral...

or something...

because you're well into blinkered bias land now

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factotum commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 1:44pm

"Parhetic Facto"! I like the ring of that. Like a Marvel super-villain or a newly discovered moon or something.

The idea that this particular scheme - introduced by Turnbull in 2016, and available and utilised in every State - represents the end of public education (not to be confused with publicly funded education) is pure hyperbole. And any discussion is not best served by this disingenuousness.

And as I said to B.I., look at how primary and secondary education is funded and managed in this country, the roles of the Federal and State governments, and try and see the 'what is actually happening' and the 'why it is happening' for what it really is.

Homework is good!

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sypkan commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 7:51pm

pathetic facto

...does have a bit of a ring to it...

without doing my homework...becose thats how I got thrugh skool...

yeh yeh, its a state funding thing, and the states are more addicted to the free cash than the feds, some states especially so...

And, yeh yeh, the libs opened the door undermining the tertiary sector, with their initiation of the privatisation experiment. but where does it all stop pathetic facto?

If labor won't question the thinking and ongoing process, who the fuck will?

The greens?

Not likely, they've swallowed more IP poison than anyone

You've gotta draw a line somewhere, sometime,.... and Im thinking primary and high school education is a pretty good place to start. because god knows, there really ain't that much left to preserve of the old school state apparatus and principles

'labor moving away from neoliberalism'

you've got to be kidding.

This, and their import your grandparents scheme, are the most extreme forms of the neoliberalism / globalisation abortion and its ways, where everything goes to the highest bidder...

labor, all they had is health and education, and they've slowly but surely rolled over on both of them

fucking pathetic

and, labor, they've got literally nothing to offer, not an independent thought amongst them ...no wonder we have scomo. buckle yourselves in haters, scomo is lining himself up for a howard-esque 12 year term. purely due to labor's weakness, incompetence, and general lack of imagination

sad times

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Laurie McGinness commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 5:29pm

Anyone concerned with the real issues in school education in Australia should read this. For those wanting to take a cheap political shot, go ahead if it makes you feel better. I like a laugh during happy hour.
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2019/06/07/flaws-coali...

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 5:51pm

Laurie , I’ve never taken a cheap political shot and I’m not about to start.

Unlike Facto and to a lesser extent, yourself , I don’t care what the label is on the party in government as long as they’re doing the right thing by the country.

This excludes the LNP for the vast majority of the time. And now it seems the ALP isn’t really worth a look.

As soon as their policies start reflecting what the nation needs I’ll start voting for them.

They can talk about caring for the environment, but their Big Australia dream displays the reality.

They can talk about education, but their desire to expand the secondary school system with private students reveals the lie .

If the problem is funding, then address that problem without creating a seperate problem of diminishing educational standards and crush loading the already strained system with ever more students whose fees don’t even cover the cost of their education. Let alone the infrastructure required to support the increased impost on the community.

You don’t cure a tree of leaf rot by digging up the roots.

I don’t care who introduced this ridiculous idea , it’s the job of the ALP to bury it , not increase its impact.

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 5:55pm

This is why people should have voted independent/ minor parties.

The duopoly parties won’t do what needs to be done.

I understand the LNP serving their corporate masters on this issue , but where is the ALP on this ?

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/06/mirabile-dictu-centre-alliance-...

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factotum commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 6:36pm

That's the second time that article's been posted, Laurie. 3rd time's a charm?

"Laurie , I’ve never taken a cheap political shot and I’m not about to start."

Damn you B.I.!

I've just spat tea all over my keyboard.

Time to go home.

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Laurie McGinness commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 6:43pm

I missed your post of that link facto, sorry about that!

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 6:48pm

No Facto, I’m not a party haemorrhoid. Unlike yourself.

I read your article. Private getting more than it’s share , so the Vicco ALP party responds by ......increased privatisation of the public system.

Good call.

Not.

And Facto, if you could go ahead and put the cover sheets on those TPS reports by closing that’d be great. Thanks.
https://youtu.be/Fy3rjQGc6lA

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sypkan commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 7:04pm

Don't need to read the article

We all already know the libs have shifted gazzilliions of cash to the private sector in a most unfair manner. don't really expect any different from them though really.

That doesn't make this seperate issue any less significant

an issue of its own merit, that would normally be ressisted at all costs by the left of politics in any form

but not this labor party in oz, they're pushing it along

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factotum commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 7:04pm

Via Macro Bollocks (inadvertently)

Vic govt. under pressure! Damned both ways!

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/cantonese/en/article/2019/05/10/disa...

"Fee-paying international students including all visa subclass holders account for about 0.94 per cent in the total enrollment of students in Victorian government schools, according to the state’s education department data."

Hmmm, spurious figures abound! Surely, there's gotta be more of them rapacious buggers??

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factotum commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 7:10pm

Any NSW or SA or Tassie figures from the MBers?

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 7:54pm

@Laurie

"So make other countries deal with the vast bulk of claims, then we accept a few of those whose claims are accepted. Yeh right."

Apart from USA and Canada we resettle more refugees than any other country in the world (per capita we resettle the most)

So it's fair to assume we are number three for dealing with applications for resettlement.

We have a resettlement quota the UNHCR refers some to us then we make a decision on those applicants or people apply direct to us again we make a decision on those applications, the majority of our refugee resettlement quota is made up in this way.

PS. Resettlement (providing a new life) is different to recognition providing temporary protection, like countries do that neighbour countries asylum seekers flee.

In regard to dealing with claims made by asylum seekers arriving by plane as we know over 90% are rejected obviously almost all from China and Malaysia are just gaming the system, the time, money, resources for processing all these people is obviously a complete waste.

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 8:04pm

Facto - The SBS link is a month old .

Vicco ALP government has since announced it is increasing the amount of private foreign students in the public system.

So far you’ve tried to :

A/ Blamed the policy on the LNP ( tacit admission that it’s bad policy ie not ALP style policy )

B/ Tried to blame the LNP for creating the situation through fund shortfall thereby forcing the ALP into privatising public education ( Still admitting its bad policy)

C / Tried to pretend it’s not true. ( more admission of bad policy)

D/ Put up the old figures before the increase as though they are representative of future figures.

Look , Facto , just talk abut the policy. If it’s indefensible- which it is - then maybe

For

Fucking

Once

just consider that the ALP have got it wrong.

Open your eyes . Privatisation of the public education system is a BAD IDEA.

Pandering to foreigners who want us to privatise our public education system so they can get access to our jobs/ real estate markets and permanent residency is a BAD IDEA.

It’s basically a waste of time talking politics with you , because to you it’s ALP perfect , everyone else bad.

You don’t care what is said or done , only who is saying or doing it. That’s how you determine right from wrong .

Impossible to discuss issues with you in this circumstance.

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Laurie McGinness commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 8:34pm

Indo, I agree with most of that but you seem to be suggesting that it should be impossible to register in Australia and I cannot see how that is consistent with our international responsibilities. It is also important to notice that, even if 90% are rejected, a significant number of applicants are found to be genuine refugees. They are the people the system has to work for.

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 7:54am

The point is the only way you can really stop the system being abused is to take the system away and only have an offshore resettlement program, to me having one system for all is the most fair thing you can do, that said.

The big problem is if you dont have onshore protection visa's you could be sending people back into danger or death.

BTW. Notice how Factotum is happy to bring the topic up, and even suggest it's the current governments fault. (suggesting i guess a different government can somehow magically fix the rorting of the system)

And i have asked him how the problem should be fixed, but we never get an answer???

Not even an idea or theory on how it could be fixed.

IMHO i think numbers will continue to rise under any government, i cant see how the issue of the system being abused can be fixed, other than automatically rejecting applications from certain countries like Malaysia where the majority of false applications are coming from.

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factotum commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 2:53pm

Good idea with the bullet point style, B.I. Takes out, well, reduces the soap operatic hysteria you're (in)famous for.

A/ It is a scheme introduced by the Federal Liberal government. Is that not a fact? And it's nationwide and managed by all States. Lib and Labor.

B/ See the article provided by Laurie and I.

C / I don't understand this at all. Does anyone? Do you?

D/ Figures. Real verifiable figures. Sorry if they're so miniscule.

THE PREMISE THAT THIS IS THE ALP "PRIVATISING PUBLIC EDUCATION" IS AN OVERBLOWN CROCK OF SHIT.

And by running with this hysterical crud, just to bash the ALP in Victoria and thus Labor in general, or rather to try and bash Laurie and I and 'them', and tie it all neatly with an 'immigration = bad' bow misses the main game. As usual.

Think it through.

In your simple 'they're all the same' equation, the Labor masterplan, both State and Federal, is to destroy public education?

And not just public primary and secondary education but publically funded tertiary and vocational education as well?

Hmmmm.

Compass pointing in the wrong direction?

Again?

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factotum commented Saturday, 22 Jun 2019 at 12:41am

"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything."

"Politics is the art of the possible."

Somewhere in between these two poles, ideology and realpolitik, sit our two major political parties.

And of course there's oscillation, when in power, sometimes towards more ideology, sometimes towards more realpolitik.

My contention is that the Liberal party since Howard has been explicitly tilted towards the ideological when in power.

And their ideology? Anyone got a real clue?

Have a go to get a go?!

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2019/jun/06/socialism-for-the-ric...

I included this article (third time's a charm?) because it's a neat summation of the ideology propelling the likes of our government, and the 'false consciousness' that develops and is encouraged in the wider culture.

In Australia, this neo-liberal genie has been out of the bottle for 35 years or so. And where Labor tilted towards realpolitik in reaction, the Libs have gone full ideological. And why not? It's their revolution.

So chaps, back to the now. And the real world. Australia. With its media. And its history. And its innate conservatism!

Yep. Innate conservatism.

Don't think so?

As the meme goes, "change my mind."

I don't want to offend anyone's 'national pride' here, but we're not who we like to think we are as a nation. We're not 'firebrand rebels', I don't even know if we're larrikins anymore ("a person with APPARENT disregard for convention") if we ever were.

We're a nation of class clowns if anything. Bound up in class with the teacher at the front and centre.

Sure, there'll be times when some freak will break a window or punch the relief teacher, but that's what they'll be...a freak. An outlier. And we'll talk about 'em, and revel in their acts, secretly or not, but the majority of us are content with a few wisecracks up the back of the class and a cig behind the toilet blocks, or just hearing about it...if even that.

So, being who we really are, how the fuck is a political party gonna get 'radical' in this country for reals?

Whitlam's government got dismissed! Gillard's, even with her relatively pissy reforms and programs and policies (well to me), got crucified by the media. And now Labor going forward with even pissier reforms (again to me) didn't even get a guernsey.

Meanwhile the Libs are a worsening abomination that we keep voting in directly and by proxy (hello Pauline & Clive!)

And you Stooges reckon that's because what? Labor aren't bold enough?!

More ideology and less realpolitik is the go?

The sad truth is we're cooked if Labor is cooked. And I have always thought Labor was too far to the right. Politically and economically. Since I could vote. But then that's me. But the gronks on the other side of the chamber??

Let's get deep fried, full Seppo style.

Time to get real, hey fellas?

Them?

And/or you?

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 3:37pm

ALP too bold ?

If they’d run on a reduced immigration platform they’d have a huge majority government.

ALP too beholden and lost more appropriate.

Getting radical in these globalist times means representing the nation who elects you

As for this : “And by running with this hysterical crud, just to bash the ALP in Victoria and thus Labor in general, or rather to try and bash Laurie and I and 'them', and tie it all neatly with an 'immigration = bad' bow misses the main game. As usual.”

I don’t WANT to bash the ALP state or federal. I’ve got no inherent animus against them , but they just keep fucking up. They have made a conscious decision to move away from their traditional voter base . When the shit policies they put forward get pilloried, you actually think it’s because working class Australians are in the wrong instead of them .

Criticism isn’t hatred. It’s pointing out how to improve. That’s where it’s all gone wrong for them.

And you’re defining criticism as ALP bashing is a joke. As I’ve said many times , I always voted for them and I want to now . I want them to get their act together so badly, but they are like you wth their “ It’s not us , it’s them “ denial.

As for posting it in order to bash you and Laurie....another joke. I couldn’t give a rat’s about either of you . I wanted to bring attention to just how far the ALP are headed from where they should be.

I think that’s the problem. Be because you work for the ALP you think all my comments about them are a shot at you. Which is like a guy who works the drive through at Maccas taking offence when someone says that McDonald’s food is unhealthy.

Get over yourself. I don’t give a fuck about you. I just want the Australian people to get their political representation back.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 6:18pm

Easy answer pathetic facto...

You've just gotta come up with some good ideas ....well actually, not even good ones, just better ones...

Here's a thought for ya, maybe labor was rejected because their policy platform was shit. Not just shit but they did a shit job of selling the shit! That's a whole lotta shit to hold your nose and vote for.

And maybe, gillard wasn't too radical at all, but just too shit. I quite liked gillard, and i certainly don't hold a grudge against her like many labor voters, but her prime ministership (prime ministershit?) was hardly that great.

I mean what was there?

A carbon tax that wasn't really a tax ...until it became a tax that is....

And, an 'education revolution' that wasn't really a revolution. not even close...

And ndis, which I won't comment on, despite having a trove of inside info. on it, and none of it is good, but to comment is taboo, because you know...

Hardly inspirational stuff. Some good intentions, but either by design, or sheer incompetence, 3 pretty big piles of shit...

Have I missed anything significant and wonderful from the gillard you can point me to?

This election, labor had shit policies, once again some good intentions, but generally shit. And when they were asked about their policies, it became increasingly clear it wasn't even half baked shit. And all this, after beavering away at it for 6 bloody years! 6 years on the same outdated policies, and they were still shit and half baked.

I dunno about you facto, but six years on the same shit, I expect something a little more, or at least a sales team that are across the detail of their shit, but they couldn't even get that right...

So maybe stop blaming the voters (again!!!) and get out there and see what people want and expect from labor. That might mean actually leaving the comfy confines of your warm office and the focus group warped reality that's influencing the poo deluge of lameness you've been selling (badly) to the public, but you'll all be better for it....even if you lose....again!

But I have little faith. Old mate albo was on 7.30 last night, and leigh sales asked him if he has been out amongst the voters and what have they been saying?

Old albo pipes up, with the mandatory positive spin (god knows how you'd have the cheek after such an abysmal showing), and says something like...

"...there's a lot of disappointment, voters are hurting, but we had 400 people show up to a brisbane pub for a labor meeting. 400 people keen to see the direction for the party into the future..."

Which translates to...

" ...I don't really know what the people who should have voted for labor but didn't are thinking, because I haven't spoken to them. I've been too busy consoling the diehards, and I spent some time in a pub with a heap of other diehards and donors, and we're all sure the election result was the media's fault. totally sure, our bubble told us so...."

Now to my mind facto, if I was albo, or labor, and I had just experienced such a brutal outright rejection by my traditional voters in q-land, I'd be mixing it with those particular folk to find out what the hell just happened. But nah, too busy hobnobbing with the donors and the party faithful in a brisso pub

It ain't just about social media bubbles, class enclaves, and generally being out of touch, it's the whole MO and apparatus that is broken. It is so distant from real people and reality labor cannot even imagine what real people want and think, all this despite having a legion of 'expert' advisors.

Get amongst the people, ban the focus group, and take minority groups for granted for an election or two, you know, just like you have done with the working class....for about 4 decades now....

because really, just like the the working class, who else can they possibly vote for?

actually be careful with that last bit...

its a risky gamble before you totally lose them - like the working class - but you'll be right for an election cycle or three

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 3:46pm

And here's a clue or two to get you on the right track.....

1) don't import grandparents. Stupid beyond stupid to appeal to a minority group that doesn't vote for you anyway

2) halt all privatisation. Its all bad, but privatisation of schools is really really really bad. You're playing with fire

3) quell, contain, subvert, do whatever you can to stop looking like china's bitch. It's pathetic.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 3:50pm

And, seriously give up on this idea that you were too bold and got punished for it

You're fucking deluding yourselves

Yes it was a hard shocking loss, difficult to deal with, but this kind of denial will get you nowhere

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 4:10pm

“" ...I don't really know what the people who should have voted for labor but didn't are thinking, because I haven't spoken to them. I've been too busy consoling the diehards, and I spent some time in a pub with a heap of other diehards, and we're all sure the election result was the media's fault. Totally sure, our bubble told us so...."”

Exactly this Sypkan.

I’m actually telling Facto that , as a former ALP voter who wants to vote for them again , I want them to represent me .

And Facto tells me that it’s me who’s in the wrong. He thinks that I should be ceding to the parties direction, not vice versa.

Not once has Facto came out and said why the privatisation of public schools is a good or a bad idea.

Just constant deflection.

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 5:18pm

Thanks for the a-z grade examples of your 'poor reading and comprehension skills', fellas.

And your 'false consciousness'.

"If they’d run on a reduced immigration platform they’d have a huge majority government."

"And here's a clue or two to get you on the right track.....

1) don't import grandparents. Stupid beyond stupid to appeal to a minority group that doesn't vote for you anyway

2) halt all privatisation. Its all bad, but privatisation of schools is really really really bad. You're playing with fire

3) quell, contain, subvert, do whatever you can to stop looking like china's bitch. It's pathetic."

I think you've got a party, and they're in right now.

Stop pretending otherwise and...

Carry on cooking.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 5:26pm

Sorry , mate, you’ll have to explain what you just wrote.

It reads as though you’ve just confirmed everything we just told you.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 5:48pm

Well he's either being a smartarse saying lnp or o.n. are in, and more suited to our tastes

which is absolute bullshit, because lnp are actually much closer to what he's selling rather than anything we've suggested..

or he's doing his usual divert, distract, dismiss, anything but address the issues...

Its really not the voters. How can you continually blame the voters for not voting for your shit soup?

You've got to practice some self reflection at some stage

don't be a legion of hilary's