Submitted by Shatner'sBassoon on Fri, 11/06/2015 - 19:48
AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.
LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.
BB is right about the long term planning for filling Australia, firstly to protect us, then after WW2 for econcomic prosperity, and thirdly when the demographic bubble brought about by the second point, mixed with post-war Baby Boomers, was going to cause major problems down the line. An ageing population needs the tax base of working age people to pay for pensions and necessary infrastructure.
The structural changes have to take place over many decades.
Blowin I said that immigration was a factor in house price increases but pointed out, correctly, that it is far from being the only factor and that reducing immigration would not solve the problem. At this point, given your position that it is the main driver of house prices, you might like to explain the current situation of historically high immigration and FALLING house prices. Oh surprise, you had to acknowledge that there are other factors!
Stu , don’t fall for the aging population time bomb bullshit that has been peddled by the same vested fuckwits who brought you “ Anti high migration is racism “ and “ extreme demand through massive immigration doesn’t push up house prices “.
Same shit BB has been bleating for years. You reckon he knows better than the World Economic Forum ?
BB. I’ll give you this : Immigration isn’t responsible alone for house prices.
But ....it’d be responsible, directly or indirectly, for roughly 95 percent of it.
If immigration hadn’t pushed demand ( and prices ) through the roof , there would have been normal capital increases. Normal capital increases would not have attracted a surfeit of speculators both foreign and domestic.
Normal capital gains would not have pushed prices and the inherent power of the rent seekers who profit from them , ever more into the circles of influence and the entire scenario we are facing would never have arisen.
You doubt ?
Take away immigration now and see what happens to house prices .
Hey Blowin, you recently chided me for calling the far right of the LNP reactionaries, well here’s Julia Banks, who today resigned from the federal parliamentary Liberal Party just that ... reactionaries https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/morrison-government-shock-jul...
Blowin to support your argument you need to show a correlation between house prices and immigration intake. To me the housing market seems to be behaving in the same way it has for the last 40 years. Plateau, sharp rise, slight fall, new plateau. The rate of increase in the last sharp rise didn't seem out of line with previous standards.
"But ....it’d be responsible, directly or indirectly, for roughly 95 percent of it."
Nope........generally easy credit or credit expansion is usually the main driver.......remember punters need loans to drive prices up.
Sorry , BB.
You can try and prove to me that Australian housing isn’t ridiculously expensive by any measure- good luck with that - and that immigration isn’t the fundamental driving force. Especially like the way you’re selling a 2 bedroom unit for the better part of a million dollars and you’re saying that real estate isn’t expensive !
IFocus ....why are the punters looking for credit in the first place ? The urge to buy a house is preeminent .
Unless you think that crew are applying for loans and then walking around pondering what to spend it on ?
You might even be right Blowin but if you can't be bothered doing the research no-one is going to believe you. Look at some graphs of house prices over the last few decades and then tell me that the last few years have been out of line with historical trends ........ or not as you usually prefer. Never let the evidence get in the way of an appealing opinion!
Mate , I’ve posted that many graphs , links , articles and evidence on this very topic on this very thread that it must drive some crew barmy.
What more can I do if you choose not to read it when I’ve post it ?
Heres a start.
Note - a lot of those graphs are only good till 2012 or 2015 , at which point house prices went postal.
"Income has become a key determinate of housing affordability. The Grattan Institute’s report found that since 1981 the biggest falls in home ownership is among young people and low income earners of all ages:"
The authors argue that “reducing immigration would reduce demand, but it would also reduce economic growth per existing resident”.
"The big problem is supply – Australia has fewer homes per resident than do most advanced economies – and crucially in the past decade the supply per resident has fallen:
And a major reason is Nimbyism – most people think increasing housing supply is a good idea, they just don’t want it to happen in their neighbourhood, either because of worries about traffic congestion, “loss of street appeal”, or they “don’t want the existing mix of people to change”:
Not sure it is a huge help to your position Blowin. Much of the discussion about housing misses the first point. Wage growth has been weak in Australia for a long time now and jobs that once would have enabled people to purchase a home now simply do not pay enough. So the housing market has behaved within historical limits but wages have been held down by poor governance.
The Grattan institute? Quoting the Grattan institute on the subject of immigration is like quoting Fox News on the topic of Trump.
Grattan institute is a full time cheerleader for Big Australia.
And what was it driving down the wages that you feel makes housing unaffordable anyway ?......
Not much point continuing this discussion, BB. You’re determined to remain ignorant. Not much I can do about that.
It’s a shame cause it’s your kids who’ll be the ones to suffer. You’ve been lucky enough to ride the Ponzi scheme and now you’re fleeing to somewhere less crowded like everyone else who can afford it.
And did you even read that link I just post ?
“But if housing affordability was mostly about being able to pay off your home loan, then you would not expect to see a drop in the percentage of home owners, and yet there has been – a massive drop.
And the drop is biggest for those younger than 45 – that is, those who were unable to get into the housing market before affordability really became an issue at the turn of the century:”
I can’t even figure out while you’d remain as obstinately mired in the opinion you’ve adopted. You obviously have no evidence to support it and you’re not open to persuasion.
Blowin, all the quotes were from your link. If you don't believe the Grattan Institute then don't post links that depend on their research. What is driving wages down? Well maybe you're right. But probably not.https://theconversation.com/budget-explainer-why-is-australias-wage-grow...
And you think an article about wage suppression in a country with the highest rate of labour supply in the developed world, that doesn’t mention immigration , isn’t being intellectually dishonest ?
On your bike , BB.
I don’t even think you’ve got your head in the sand , BB . I think you know the truth ....but you’re in denial.
Even the title is tailor made for you , BB.
Even the ALP knows this ....but there’s votes in keeping the rort going.
But there’s skills shortages ....that’s why a program is being considered to provide aid to unemployable skilled visa holders cause there’s no jobs !
It’s strange that someone who is basically a socialist has fallen in lock step with Capital, BB.
I think the term is ....fake left Uber- wankers.
Just journalists. I will stick with the Professor of Economics at Melbourne University. He doesn't need to produce sensationalist stuff everyday and has no vested interest in the issue.
Insults Blowin? I really don't need that shit.
Hard not to get frustrated when someone who purports to be on the side of the workers abandons them so readily and without any compunction.
That’s the reality of the new left I guess. More about pseudo concern for the abstract global masses than looking after the kids from Western Sydney finishing high school in a few weeks who can’t get a job due to the flooding of the labour market with cheap foreign labour.
Bernie sanders knows what’s what....
It’s an opinion piece.
It's a bloody good opinion piece!
"compliant and servile" that's how camille paglia describes contemporary academia. Not a radical bone amongst them. The exact opposite of what it should be
And, if the federalist is good enough for chas at planet america to reference then its good enough for me.
A little right wing, christian, and nutty...but good enough...
Third rate restatement of a commonly expressed view, leading to an incorrect conclusion. Trump has dismissed the competent and incompetent alike and not replaced many in key positions. He has not hired people of purpose and action, only sycophants and ideologues.
Yet he’s achieved more than the previous 5 presidents combined including basically all of his election promises.
Whether you like or don’t like what it is he’s doing, it is irrelevant to admitting the fact that he’s getting done what he wants done.
Maybe you’re implying that Trump is so effective that he’s managing to achieve so much despite incompetent staff ? Either that or you’re incorrect regarding his staff’s abilities.
Pure hyperbole Blowin. His record on keeping his promises is pretty average.https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/
BB ...from your own link , Trump has only broken 10 percent or so of his promises.
The rest are accomplished, in the works or stalled by opposition. Do you need the pie graph explained to you ?
Find me a single politician with a better record.
I thought you were a fan of the truth , BB. You’re obviously willing to make exceptions in order to accommodate your irrational hatred of Trump.
Look at the graph. He has broken or compromised on more than he has kept. What might happen in the future (stalled and in the works) is irrelevant. As things stand his record is poor.
Name a single President with a better record.
And let’s not forget that this is a President with unprecedented opposition due to the fact that he is upsetting the status quo.
Trump getting things done oh FFS Blowing what a fu(king genus (shouting at screen now family dog thinks i have lossed it)
Trump getting things done when others didn't, gee why is that could it be the US Senate and House were both fu(king Republican......is that a possibility? FFS
Even then they didn't get it all done.....didn't get rid of that terrible health care thing Obama Care you know the stuff the peasants would like access to.
Yeah Trump is fantastic wish is was one of my mates.............hang on he hasn't any wonder why? Because he has burnt every single person he has come across.
"And let’s not forget that this is a President with unprecedented opposition due to the fact that he is upsetting the status quo."
More FFS he has opposition because he is a fu)king wanker
Agreed , I focus.
Trump is a wanker.
And he is still the best US President for decades. Says more about the US than it does about Trump.
What’s with the profanities being corrupted in your posts ?
Swear or don’t swear.
That shit just shows you to be indecisive. Seems like the opposite of toxic masculinity ?
Toxic emasculinity ?
"Third rate restatement of a commonly expressed view, leading to an incorrect conclusion. Trump has dismissed the competent and incompetent alike and not replaced many in key positions. He has not hired people of purpose and action, only sycophants and ideologues."
Who says that's a..... "Third rate restatement of a commonly expressed view, leading to an incorrect conclusion."
Sounds like your opinion, which coincidentally aligns with the opinion of the establishment that are trying to preserve their positions and power.
The reason he cannot fill positions is because of the reasons in blowin's link. It's career suicide to not toe the line.
Yes he may have hired idealogues but trump ain't one, and that is how he manages to cross the partisan divide, pissing off both sides in the process. Face it blindboy the 'consensus' wasn't working for many people. Interestingly across the world, not just english speaking countries, hence brazil, and his relative success on foreign policy.
An example of the fawning fuckwits toeing the line.
And the disastrous alternative that could have been...
sypkan, the assumption that my criticism of Trump represents support for the establishment is ridiculous. I have been consistently and intensely critical of US governance from well before he became President. My point is that he represents a move, not just from bad to worse, but to potentially catastrophic. To claim that his foreign policy has been relatively successful is misleading. He achieved nothing with North Korea and in the process boosted Kim Jong Un’s credibility. He has alienated most of Europe and actively supported Russia, probably the most dangerous regime on the planet. Calling that any kind of success is just being naive.
You've made that point before blindboy, and that's what puzzles me to no end that you wouldn't see this as anything but an opportunity to shake shit up.
It's not just north korea, japan seemed to accept trump as a breath of fresh air, saudi arabia too, and Russia, and even south korea.
The alternative was war with north korea. I don't think trump has legitimised kim jong un in any body's eyes, just staved of disaster...for a while at least....
Same with Russia, clinton literally had the jets warming up for confrontation with Russia. Whilst putin may be also a fuckwit, he does have a valid point about the US dramatically destabilising the region on Russia's doorstep from the comfort of a vast ocean. It's most interesting that it was the republicans who were trigger happy with Russia not that long ago, whilst the somewhat commie democrats were their friend, how quickly things can change...
I think you need to acknowledge that your main issue with trump is his coarse behaviour and rhetoric that challenges your penchant for political correctness, the globalisation project, and the drive for somewhat open borders.
That's your main issue with him, everything else you raise is just window dressing and diversions from core issues you have with him.
You guys seem to think anyone spruiking trump's wares love him, when in fact, like blowin I assume, I think he is an absolute fuckwit. But it took an absolute fuckwit to break through the political correctness built up over decades that allowed these issues to fester away unaddressed for decades.
False language, false hope, and false achievements for quite some time now.
I think you totally misunderstand the dynamics of the North Korean situation. They have a long record of pushing things to the brink and then backing off. This has usually been for domestic reasons. When things are bad at home you need an enemy to maintain internal unity. The only way North Korea would start a war is if they were convinced that they were about to be attacked, something that Trump almost managed to do.
Trump played the situation for domestic advantage and significantly increased the risk by threatening them. By meeting Kim Jong Un he played on the widespread ignorance of the US population about foreign policy to create the belief that he had achieved a breakthrough, when it was all just more of the same. The North Korean nuclear facilities needed up dating so they were always going to be closed. Wait a few years and the same scenario will play out again.
BB ain’t interested in preventing wars . He’s interested in being right . Trump has put the world further from global conflict than any president in a generation.
Is this a good thing ?
You’d assume so , but apparently being granted consent to grab women on their genitalia due to your power - induced charisma is too much for an ideological tin man to get their head around. The only option is to run with the crowd and hate , hate , hate.
Here’s a fresh shovel of dirt on the grave of BB’s desperate plea that a flood of immigrants please be regarded as an unquestionable and entirely beneficial gift from God :
And here’s one from the University of Victoria that BB holds beyond reproach.
On Russia, Trump, by undermining the unity of NATO, has significantly increased the risk of a European war. In the last few days we have seen Russia provoking conflict with Ukraine and there are still risks in the Baltics. Your approach seems to be that disruption must always bring improvement. History suggests the exact opposite.
Undermining the unity of NATO ?
By asking it’s members to adhere to their responsibilities and obligations?
OMFG.....you’ve drunk so much Kool Aid that.....you’re drunk.
So anyway me and a mate decided on a run up the coast , chasing waves. I provided the car and we agreed to go halves in petrol money. We got good surf , but when it was time to drive back home I realised we need to fill the tank. I hit my mate up for the promised fuel money and he started throwing a tantrum.
“ Fuck you , Blowin “ he said “ I don’t want to throw in for fuel anymore and now you’ve destroyed the unity of our surf trip ! “
Yeah , so I kicked him out of the car near Grafton.....while I was doing 80 kms/ hour.
PS - Did you read that link with all its attendant and inarguable evidence describing how mass immigration suppresses wages , BB ? Including International analysts from the Bank of England and Cambridge University .
I understand you were only arguing because you weren’t convinced. That you’re an open minded person who isn’t wedded to the erroneous belief that mass immigration is an unquestionable benefit to our country. That you’re not cemented into your argument by block headed ideology, particularly one that is so inherently incorrect.
Now we can discuss how to move forward and attempt to prevent the destruction of living standards that mass immigration is bringing to Australia ?
What do you think , BB ?
Obviously you’re on the side of Australian workers aren’t you ? Being so left wing and all.
Yesterday 1.53pm Blowin I stated that immigration influenced wages with the accurate qualification that there were also other significant factors. If you want yo keep putting words in my mouth it would be a lot easier just to argue with yourself. Oh and try to make your mind up about the topic, I thought we were discussing house prices .... you keep dragging back to your favourite obsession.
I’ve yet to hear you say that unsustainably high immigration is possibly not in Australia’s best interests.
And I’ve yet to hear you acknowledge that it’s detrimental to current working class Australians , except for the fact that it’s, at best , kicking the can down the road from the almighty financial reckoning that it’s created.
I’ve yet to hear you recognise the ridiculous and unnecessary impacts it is having and will have on our environment and basically every aspect of our lives on this fragile island.
I'm actually pretty aware of kim mk1 and kim mk11 pushing shit to the brink for leverage and then backing off last minute. What's different this time is the south koreans being totally on board with trump. What was definitely a reckless start, can only be described as an achievement in the end. But not for some in the media, couldn't even get the words out.
Here's a scenario for ya blindboy. Clinton got in, and continued with obama's end of their tether position on north korea. At the same time, she enforces the no fly zone she proposed for syria, a firm commitment she made in the second debate. Thus challenging Russia's legitimate jets flying over syria. Legitimate because they're there at the request of syria, essentially declaring war with Russia.
At the same time, the tension with china escalates, the tension that was hotting up regardless, but no one talked about, due to you know what...
You'd have three pretty commie, pretty dictatorial, pretty common interests, pretty closely located nations finding that the enemy of my enemy is my friend along with a heap of other neighbouring countries.
It would not be overstating it to call that a pretty good seed for WW111. We were so close to this scenario it was scary. The only thing scarier was how ignorant the general population was to it all unfolding, including your supposedly smart, appropriate institutionally well educated, liberal affiliates who label everyone else as dumb!
Re. NATO, many have suggested it was just about done. And obama said very similar things to trump about it being well past time people staeted paying up for their fair share.
Yet, somehow, miraculously, obama was never portrayed as being dangerous and out of line by the media. Funny that....
Blowin, I support immigration. The level depends on the mix and the way it is managed. Currently there are aspects that are badly managed and these have pushed wages down in certain sectors. Given that these are mainly low wage, that is a poor outcome. If we look at what is actually going on though the majority of the problem is not immigration, it is the appalling exploitative behaviour of the employers. This has been aided by decades of deregulation of employment and the disempowering of the unions. With strong unions and effective regulation the impact of immigration on wages would be much reduced.
For me we need to cut the skilled migrant intake and take more refugees. Why? Well I believe someone who has the courage and tenacity to leave their home with nothing more than what they can carry, then make an arduous and dangerous journey to reach a place of safety and opportunity is very likely to land on their feet and make a great citizen.
In terms of the environment again the problem is poor management. It is not the level of population that is destroying the Murray-Darling and the Great Barrier Reef, it is decades of appalling environmental policy by both major parties but most obviously the COALition. The same can be said about air quality and traffic congestion.
The real issue is good governance and we will not get that as long as people continue to believe the populist propaganda fed to us by vested interests via well funded biased media outlets and elect corporate representatives to parliament.
Please expand on your last paragraph.
Do you think I believe populist propaganda?