The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
Roadkill wrote:GuySmiley, do you deliberately post untruths or are you simply not educated on borders etc?
News flash a rectangular shaped object only has 2sides!!
GuySmiley wrote:Roadkill wrote:GuySmiley, do you deliberately post untruths or are you simply not educated on borders etc?
News flash a rectangular shaped object only has 2sides!!
I’m guessing you have no interest in the truth then. Nor in being accurate and facts are so far out of reach for you. Deliberately staying dumb is a choice.
Ok.
Good morning
Add that one to his unsubstantiated rape and sex slave fantasies for the complete picture. Also a supporter of collective punishment.
And as Roadkill clearly pointed out yesterday, all these deaths lay at the feet of Hamas, even all the dead Palestinian kids shot before this current escalation even started.
Hope you’re having a good day Indo and Roadkill. Every one they bury is a step closer to your solution I would imagine gentlemen. You guys must be stoked. Remembering half of those are kids. Do you guys get a little bummed when they’re only maimed not killed?
Ha ha “choices”
soggydog wrote:Good morning
Add that one to his unsubstantiated rape and sex slave fantasies for the complete picture. Also a supporter of collective punishment.
And as Roadkill clearly pointed out yesterday, all these deaths lay at the feet of Hamas, even all the dead Palestinian kids shot before this current escalation even started.
Hope you’re having a good day Indo and Roadkill. Every one they bury is a step closer to your solution I would imagine gentlemen. You guys must be stoked. Remembering half of those are kids. Do you guys get a little bummed when they’re only maimed not killed?
Ha ha “choices”
At least quote me accurately.
.
Sam Harris - What is Islamophobia?
Someone once said on the Internet, it’s a word “invented by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons,” and that’s not far from the truth. There is no question that the term has been designed to confuse people. Its purpose is to conflate any criticism of Islam, which is a doctrine of religious beliefs, with bigotry against Muslims as people. In fact, it equates secularism itself—the commitment to keeping religion out of our laws and public policy—with hatred. The term is now being widely used in the mainstream media, and it is making it impossible to speak honestly about the consequences of dangerous ideas.
Let’s be clear about what is real here and what is fake: Racism is real. There are white supremacists in America, for instance. And, of course, these imbeciles can be counted upon to hate immigrants from Muslim-majority countries—Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis, etc.—and to hate them for their superficial characteristics, like the color of their skin. This is detestable. But these people hate non-Muslim immigrants too—for instance, Hindus from India—and for the same reasons. We already have words like “racism” and “xenophobia” to cover this problem. Inventing a new term like “Islamophobia” doesn’t give us license to say that there is a new form of hatred in the world.
There is no race of Muslims. Islam is a system of ideas, subscribed to by people of every race and ethnicity. It’s just like Christianity in that regard. Christianity and Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths, and they win converts from everywhere. People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people. There’s no such thing as “Christophobia.” If you criticize Christianity—and I’ve written an entire book excoriating Christianity—no one accuses you of being a racist against people from Brazil, or Mexico, or Ethiopia, or the Philippines. But even the New York Times will use the term “Islamophobia” as a synonym for racism against Arabs. This is pure delusion and propaganda. There are Christian Arabs. And I could become a Muslim in 5 minutes just by converting to the faith.
How does the term “antisemitism” differ as a concept? Well, we have a 2000-year-old tradition of religiously inspired hatred against Jews, courtesy of Christian theology. But for at least the last 150 years, or so, Jews have been thought of as a distinct race of people, both by those who hate them and, rather often, by Jews themselves. So antisemitism tends to be expressed as a specific form of racism. Antisemites are not focused on what Jews believe, or even on what they do on the basis of their beliefs. Modern antisemites, like Nazis, care about who your mother’s mother’s mother was. Just like racism, antisemitism has become a hatred of people, as people, not because of their beliefs or their behavior, but because of the mere circumstances of their birth.
Why is this different? Well, unlike a person’s race or skin color or country of origin, beliefs can be argued for, and criticized, and changed. And the truth is, we don’t respect people’s beliefs just because they hold them. Beliefs must earn respect. And there is a good reason for this: beliefs are claims about reality and about how human beings should live within it—so they necessarily lead to behaviors, and to values, and laws, and institutions that affect the lives of everyone, whether they share these beliefs or not. Beliefs end marriages and start wars.
Honestly criticizing the doctrine of Islam does not entail bigotry against Arabs or any other group of people. It is not an expression of hatred to notice that specific Islamic ideas—in particular, beliefs about martyrdom, and jihad, and blasphemy, and apostasy—inspire terrible acts of violence. And it’s not an expression of phobia—that is, irrational fear—to notice that violent religious fanatics don’t make good neighbors.
And while every religion has its fanatics, there is only one religion on Earth where even its mainstream members of the faith seek to impose their religious taboos on everyone else. There is only one religion that has made it unsafe for people to criticize it—or indeed, for its own members to leave it. Only Muslims routinely fear for their lives when they decide to leave their religion—and this is true, even in the West. If you doubt this, just read some books or listen to some podcasts by ex-Muslims.
Anyone who wants to draw a cartoon, or write a novel, or stage a play that makes fun of Mormonism is free to do that. In the United States, this freedom is nominally guaranteed by the First Amendment—but that is not, in fact, what guarantees it. The freedom to poke fun at Mormonism is guaranteed by the fact that Mormons don’t tend to murder their critics. They don’t start riots and burn embassies in response to satire.
When The Book of Mormon became the most celebrated musical in the United States, the LDS Church protested by placing ads for their faith in the program. That might have been a wasted effort: but it was also a charming sign of good humor. Yes, there are crazy and dangerous people in every faith—and I often hear from them. But what is true of Mormonism is true of every other religion, with a single exception. Can you imagine staging a similar play about Islam anywhere on Earth? No you cannot—unless you also imagine the creators of that play being hunted for the rest of their lives by religious maniacs. You also have to imagine Muslims by the hundreds of thousands, in dozens of countries, going absolutely berserk.
At this moment in history, there is only one religion that systematically stifles free expression with credible threats of violence. The truth is, we have already lost our First Amendment freedoms with respect to Islam. We lost them decades ago—and anyone who is tempted to cry “Islamophobia” at this point, shares the blame for this. This status quo is intolerable—and, most important, it should be intolerable to Muslims themselves. They should be mortified that their community is so uniquely combustible. So uniquely uncivil. So incapable of self-reflection and self-criticism. So dangerously childish. So desperate to make the whole world it's safe space.
Consider what is actually happening: Some percentage of the world’s Muslims—and it is not just extremists—are demanding that all non-Muslims conform to Islamic law. And while they might not immediately resort to violence in their protests, they threaten it. Carrying a sign through the streets of London that reads “Behead Those Who Insult the Prophet” might still count as an example of peaceful protest, but it is also an assurance that infidel blood would be shed if the thug holding the sign only had more power. Wherever Muslims do have real power, this grotesque promise is always fulfilled. To make a film, or stage a play, or write a novel critical of Islam in any Muslim-majority country, is as sure a method of suicide as the laws of physics allow. There is only one religion on Earth that has normalized this level of fanaticism. And it isn’t an expression of bigotry to notice that this is totally antithetical to everything that civilized people value in the 21st century.
The October 7th attacks in Israel changed the way many of us think about the vulnerability of open societies. They changed the way we think about immigration and failures of assimilation. And they revealed a level of moral confusion in our universities and other institutions that is as astonishing as it is masochistic. We have people who are ostensibly committed to women’s rights, and gay rights, and trans rights, mindlessly supporting people who would hurl them from rooftops or beat them to death with their own hands. It is not a sign of bigotry to notice this hypocrisy and moral confusion for what it is.
It really is possible to be critical of Israel, and to be committed to the political rights of the Palestinian people, without denying the reality of Islamic religious fanaticism—or the threat that it poses not just to Israel, but to open societies everywhere.
There have been nearly 50,000 acts of Islamic terrorism in the last 40 years—and the French group that maintains a database of these attacks considers that to be an undercount. Ninety percent of them have occurred in Muslim countries. Most have nothing to do with Israel or Jews. There have been 82 attacks in France and over 2000 in Pakistan during this period. Do you want France to be more like Pakistan? You just need more jihadists. You just need more people susceptible to becoming jihadists. You just need a wider Muslim community that won’t condemn jihadism, but pretends that the theology that inspires it will be true and perfect until the end of the world. You just need millions of people who will protest Israel for defending itself, or call for the deaths of cartoonists for depicting the prophet Muhammad, and yet not make a peep about the jihadist atrocities that occur daily, all over the world, in the name of their religion.
When hundreds of thousands of people show up in London to condemn Hamas, or the Islamic State, or any specific instance of jihadist savagery, without both-sides-ing anything, then we will know that something has changed. When Muslims by the millions pour into the streets in protest, not over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, but over the murder of cartoonists by their own religious fanatics, we will know that we’ve made a modicum of progress.
The Muslim world needs to win a war of ideas with itself, and perhaps several civil wars. It has to de-radicalize itself. It has to transform the doctrine of jihad into something far more benign than it is, and it has to stop supporting its religious fanatics when they come into conflict with non-Muslims. This is what’s so toxic: Muslims supporting other Muslims no matter how sociopathic and insane their behavior.
If the Muslim community and the political Left can’t stand against jihadism, it is only a matter of time before their moral blindness leads to rightwing authoritarianism in the West. If secular liberals won’t create secure borders, fascists will. And that is a world that none of us should want to live in.
Excellent
I wonder if Sam could apply the some of the same metrics to Zionism and if it would measure up.
There’s some pretty nasty retaliation internationally against people who are against the Israeli occupation.
Though not as radical as Islamic fundamentalists but they’re definitely trying to harm the long term quality of life of young people at the start of their lives. From shooting in un armed kids in Israel to doxing and black banning protesters abroad. All in the name of religious fundamentalism.
Worth considering
soggydog wrote:I wonder if Sam could apply the some of the same metrics to Zionism and if it would measure up.
There’s some pretty nasty retaliation internationally against people who are against the Israeli occupation.
Though not as radical as Islamic fundamentalists but they’re definitely trying to harm the long term quality of life of young people at the start of their lives. From shooting in un armed kids in Israel to doxing and black banning protesters abroad. All in the name of religious fundamentalism.
Worth considering
Talking about shooting unarmed kids maybe he could do a spiel about the NRA. It seems that home grown terrorism from gun violence in the US is a bigger problem than anything the Islamists are doing
Fliplid wrote:soggydog wrote:I wonder if Sam could apply the some of the same metrics to Zionism and if it would measure up.
There’s some pretty nasty retaliation internationally against people who are against the Israeli occupation.
Though not as radical as Islamic fundamentalists but they’re definitely trying to harm the long term quality of life of young people at the start of their lives. From shooting in un armed kids in Israel to doxing and black banning protesters abroad. All in the name of religious fundamentalism.
Worth considering
Talking about shooting unarmed kids maybe he could do a spiel about the NRA. It seems that home grown terrorism from gun violence in the US is a bigger problem than anything the Islamists are doing
This Sam Harris podcast is dated 31 May 2022 but it may still answer some of your queries.
Soggy
"I wonder if Sam could apply the some of the same metrics to Zionism and if it would measure up."
I read the whole piece ( very interesting ) , and he did , and the Jews DID measure up .
Applied the same metrics to ALL religions , I thought that clear .
I hadn't taken much of notice of Sam Harris until this thread started, but ive listened to a few of his podcast now, i think he has one of the better takes on this issue, he seems to have a good grasp of understanding how import the aspect of Islam is in all this and culture, social norms etc
Imagine if Polish Soldiers marched into Russia , like Hamas did to Israel on Oct 7th .
Imagine what Russia and Putin would do .
The US to Mexico .
Australia to Indonesia or visa versa .
I can't imagine that this Metric Stuff really matters then .
Rabbits68 wrote:Fliplid wrote:soggydog wrote:I wonder if Sam could apply the some of the same metrics to Zionism and if it would measure up.
There’s some pretty nasty retaliation internationally against people who are against the Israeli occupation.
Though not as radical as Islamic fundamentalists but they’re definitely trying to harm the long term quality of life of young people at the start of their lives. From shooting in un armed kids in Israel to doxing and black banning protesters abroad. All in the name of religious fundamentalism.
Worth considering
Talking about shooting unarmed kids maybe he could do a spiel about the NRA. It seems that home grown terrorism from gun violence in the US is a bigger problem than anything the Islamists are doing
This Sam Harris podcast is dated 31 May 2022 but it may still answer some of your queries.
Cheers Rabbit. I had to cringe when they mentioned there had been around 650 mass shootings in the year to date, "but don't scare the school kids by teaching them safety drills because it is actually a rare event that they'll get shot at school, just tell them to jump out the window and run!"
As someone looking in from the outside I find it weird that there are so many US commentators singling out Islamist terror as being a big threat to the safety of US civilians and ignore the numbers that show gun violence kills far more people than Islamists ever have
Imagine if those gun toting NRA card carrying (mostly republicans Christian southerners) Americans were jihadists or jihad sympathisers? Compare that scenario.
Now do you get it?
I think Sam extrapolates and presents as factual sometimes. And I think that the current threat of jihadism to Israel is due to mass killing of Muslims. Israeli response is seen as defensive, what would be the narrative if West Bank Palestinians joined the fray due to the continued murder of civilians.
I think Sam has erred in not making the distinction between Judaism and Zionism as he has done with Jihadism and Islam.
“ … As someone looking in from the outside I find it weird that there are so many US commentators singling out Islamist terror as being a big threat to the safety of US civilians and ignore the numbers that show gun violence kills far more people than Islamists ever have“
Exactly the conversation I had with some fat American in Positano in 2016 when he interrupted my day by praising the Italian police and their machine guns “protecting us tourists from those Islamist terrorists”. Oddly, he didn’t appreciate the irony, not really when a reasonable number of Americans were confusing Australia with Austria, dumb arses!!
Hey Pop, they didn’t “March in” they took hostages and retreated. To exchange for prisoners (hostages). That’s pretty clear now.
Smiley
Just checking the facts of your Italian lunch .
U ( and maybe someone else ) were having a lunch and u heard a guy with a US accent say " Good Onya , mate " ( what I might say ) , to an Italian police man .
U then decided to interrupt YOUR lunch , by berating the fat , dumb arse , for America's singling out of Islamic Terror .
I must have something wrong , surely , again !
Soogy , gosh ok , they snuck in , in the middle of the night and from the water , slaughtered , raped , took hostages and left , quickly .
Imagine some Polish soldiers then hiding in a city after doing this to Russia .
The Polish civilians would RUN for the hills !!!
They KNOW what the Russians would do .
It sure wasn't a nice , let's get some hostages and negotiate for a Peace type operation . That is just silly imho .
Edit - I thought this thread was removed from SN yesterday .
I think it should be .
Pops, you have a vivid imagination, I was waiting outside a shop my wife was in and this American struck up a conversation with me, all pleasant and nice until two Italian policemen walked past with said machine guns, he then ruined it by getting stuck into muslins etc. I politely asked him about the gun violence and deaths in his own country, it was the yankie that took the offence …. You been to Positano Pops?
Smiley , U are right , I often put 1 and 1 together and get 4.9 .
I think , given your circumstances , I might have done the same :)
I hope he didn't ruin a nice romantic lunch , with your wife , and give U indigestion !
Sorry , Yes , for 69 minutes ( a walk and a swim ) ish , went there via the water from Sorrento .
A small boat , with a Captain , and just the Ex , her mum ( very nice ) and my two daughters .
A whole day trip .
A wonderful family adventure with a lunch stop ( probably the Captain's family :) along the way , somewhere .
A No Menu rest on the water lol , great !
Not really cruising the Med ( the Captain wouldn't let me steer ( my Ex was happy ) but close imho .
Gosh , the water is really Blue ( and , surprisingly for me , CLEAN ) haha .
Hey Soggy , look UP !
It's fun ( for me ) !
It also helps me try and do the old " Walk in others shoes " shuffle .
Kids are really good at it , not sure why !
soggydog wrote:I think Sam extrapolates and presents as factual sometimes. And I think that the current threat of jihadism to Israel is due to mass killing of Muslims. Israeli response is seen as defensive, what would be the narrative if West Bank Palestinians joined the fray due to the continued murder of civilians.
I think Sam has erred in not making the distinction between Judaism and Zionism as he has done with Jihadism and Islam.
If that was the case why aren’t Muslims waging jihad on all the Muslims around the world getting murdered by other Muslims? Is it because the people doing the murdering aren’t jews or infidels but fellow Muslims?
It is non-sensical to suggest an equivalency between Zionism and Jihadism. For start as far as I am aware the Zionist’s do not oppose statehood and self-determination for the Palestinians. Hamas on the other hand want to kill every single Jew on the planet.. How many other Islamic believers would support or sympathise with that?
Pop Down wrote:Smiley
Just checking the facts of your Italian lunch .
U ( and maybe someone else ) were having a lunch and u heard a guy with a US accent say " Good Onya , mate " ( what I might say ) , to an Italian police man .
U then decided to interrupt YOUR lunch , by berating the fat , dumb arse , for America's singling out of Islamic Terror .
I must have something wrong , surely , again !
Soogy , gosh ok , they snuck in , in the middle of the night and from the water , slaughtered , raped , took hostages and left , quickly .
Imagine some Polish soldiers then hiding in a city after doing this to Russia .
The Polish civilians would RUN for the hills !!!
They KNOW what the Russians would do .
It sure wasn't a nice , let's get some hostages and negotiate for a Peace type operation . That is just silly imho .
Edit - I thought this thread was removed from SN yesterday .
I think it should be .
What’s the point of your imaginarium?
Soggy - the point of my ( Don Quixote type ) imagination .
No point , I know of , yet .
I wrote this Up ( above ) .
Hey Soggy , look UP !
It's fun ( for me ) !
It also helps me try and do the old " Walk in others shoes " shuffle .
Kids are really good at it , not sure why , but am sure they also don't no the Point of our imagination .
It is a Human Only type ability thing and I think I don't have the hang of it , just yet .
I do KNOW , it is powerful !!!
Much smarter women and men than me , have written about it .
Indo - I thought Israel's Gun's Laws would be similar to the US , interesting , thanks .
Probably a bigger massacre , maybe . Too hard a Q , and in the past .
I am now wondering , if I was a peaceful anti gun Israeli , and lived near Gaza , would I arm myself after Oct 7 .
If I was still living with my daughters , I would be looking up the Process of getting a really good Gun , I think .
How terrible .
Speaking of USA and gun laws, USA is pretty fucked up in their gun culture and laws and Im totally for gun control laws we have in Australia and glad we dont have the same culture as USA only people in Australia that need guns are hunters, farmer's for example.
But that said i think its crazy that Israel has/had similar laws/culture to our's rather than similar to USA.
I think there is a pretty good case that the massacre that happened on October 7th near border would not have been half as bad if everyone living there was armed.
“I think there is a pretty good case that the massacre that happened on October 7th near border would not have been half as bad if everyone living there was armed.“
Weren’t they at a music festival?
@info where do the innocent Israelis illegally occupying stolen Palestinian land in the West Bank get their guns to shoot at their pesky neighbours then?
bonza wrote:soggydog wrote:I think Sam extrapolates and presents as factual sometimes. And I think that the current threat of jihadism to Israel is due to mass killing of Muslims. Israeli response is seen as defensive, what would be the narrative if West Bank Palestinians joined the fray due to the continued murder of civilians.
I think Sam has erred in not making the distinction between Judaism and Zionism as he has done with Jihadism and Islam.If that was the case why aren’t Muslims waging jihad on all the Muslims around the world getting murdered by other Muslims? Is it because the people doing the murdering aren’t jews or infidels but fellow Muslims?
It is non-sensical to suggest an equivalency between Zionism and Jihadism. For start as far as I am aware the Zionist’s do not oppose statehood and self-determination for the Palestinians. Hamas on the other hand want to kill every single Jew on the planet.. How many other Islamic believers would support or sympathise with that?
Can you provide a direct quote from the Hamas charter or leaders to support your supposition that Hamas want to kill ever Jew on the planet, and also that zionists do not oppose statehood for Palestinian people, given the expansion and IDF support of settlers displacing Palestinians.
Something factual that supports your hypothesis.
goofyfoot wrote:“I think there is a pretty good case that the massacre that happened on October 7th near border would not have been half as bad if everyone living there was armed.“
Weren’t they at a music festival?
Im not talking about the festival goers, im not saying they should have been armed although maybe there is a case for event organisers to be.
Im talking about villages near the border that were hit like Kfar Aza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Aza
not sure if this is what the frown is getting at... as translation is lost on his compulsion to give indod shit...
but I heard the other day the idf was now giving citizens arms in some regions to protect themselves
it wasn't just the festival goofy, apparently hamas broke the border on several fronts including the beach
With hindsight , the Music Festival should have had IDF protection .
The Israeli's are VERY determined to make sure Oct 7 , never ( I never say never ) happens again !
It is , unfortunately now , whatever it takes .
Hamas needs to surrender or die imho , as I had to write , earlier on this thread .
indo-dreaming wrote:goofyfoot wrote:“I think there is a pretty good case that the massacre that happened on October 7th near border would not have been half as bad if everyone living there was armed.“
Weren’t they at a music festival?
Im not talking about the festival goers, im not saying they should have been armed although maybe there is a case for event organisers to be.
Im talking about villages near the border that were hit like Kfar Aza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Aza
Yeah ok, got ya.
sypkan wrote:it wasn't just the festival goofy, apparently hamas broke the border on several fronts including the beach
Ok syp, I wasn’t aware of that. Cheers
Bonza, maybe have a read of the links Jelly posted earlier. Interesting reading. Zionists don’t want a two state solution.
Seeds - I think most know that Getting a 2 State solution is The Issue , without having to go to all the trouble of reading some , probably , one-sided ( sometimes interesting ) links with no reason on why I should look at them , posted by a bloke whose name makes me think of a Flathead .
I like knowing I can trust links , before looking at them .
Just saying .
Pop Down wrote:With hindsight , the Music Festival should have had IDF protection .
The Israeli's are VERY determined to make sure Oct 7 , never ( I never say never ) happens again !
It is , unfortunately now , whatever it takes .
Hamas needs to surrender or die imho , as I had to write , earlier on this thread.
I dare say the rave was in a low key place away from policing eyes... as tends to be the case...
and thats probably why it was so close to the border where it was, land no one goes near...
"Hamas needs to surrender..."
as I read the other day... there is virtually no one asking for this...
from either side of the argument - especially those that claim to not support hamas... which is most interesting...
maybe its a pointless proposition... as hamas have made their intentions totally clear...
they wanted this!
Pop, I read them and like wow nothing bad happened.
Pop Down wrote:a bloke whose name makes me think of a Flathead .
kelly slater/john florence = jelly flater
was always my assumption?
Thanks 6 !!!
I am going with your gut feel .
U have a better imagination than I do , it seems haha .
I feel better already , as JJ is my favourite - No Unnecessary movements and just goes with the flow imo .
Like a Flathead , perhaps .
Quite clever , actually , although , knew JF was smart ( smart arse to , like me ) .
ps I am still not going to look at his links , unless he can show me why , I should .
I am stubborn like a mule , to , sometimes .
sypkan wrote:not sure if this is what the frown is getting at... as translation is lost on his compulsion to give indod shit...
but I heard the other day the idf was now giving citizens arms in some regions to protect themselves
Hadn't heard that, but i did hear reports that gun sales are way up, you can buy them but just not as easy as in USA or obviously not that USA style gun culture.
BTW it should be noted, most people in Israel do have the advantage of military training from compulsory or voluntary service so have some fire arms skill/understanding including safety, so its not like you are giving guns to clueless rednecks like in the USA..
seeds wrote:Bonza, maybe have a read of the links Jelly posted earlier. Interesting reading. Zionists don’t want a two state solution.
The Israel government has agreed to two state solution's a number of times through history often put forward by a third party mediator, the Palestine side have rejected every two state deal.
Ive seen it suggested it's because the deals favour Israel,but once you have a basic understanding of the areas of historical significance and just what the landscape is this is complete garbage and the complete opposite of whats true.
Its kind of irrelevant though, even if there was a two state solution there would be group's like Hamas and Hezbollah, who would still do the same.
Theres a good reason why the middle east is almost 90% muslim and some countries pretty much close top 100% muslim, even though Christianity was founded on this land, its because Islam is far from the religion of peace, its more like convert or suffer or even die.
"Zionists don’t want a two state solution."
and how many 'zionists' are there that don't want a two state solution?
my guess would be 10% max...
many israelis don't support the settlements at all
how many muslims are there that don't want a two state solution?
my guess would be many more as a percentage...
many many more...
interestingly, I heard there was research pre this conflict that found less than 40% of palestinians support hamas
post this conflict it flipped to 60/40 support hamas
I dare say a lot more israelis don't support a two state solution now...
its a clusterfuck
Interesting reading posted by Jelly above
sypkan
I have to agree with ALL your numbers ( did think pre conflict Palestinian support for Hamas was less than 40% ) .
Unfortunately , your description , clusterfuck , is very appropriate imho .
Seeds - maybe our definitions of feeling something bad are different ?
I don't like reading anything and thinking "Gosh , that was a waste of my time ".
I have too much Stuff to read , as it is .
So , I am very selective .
sypkan wrote:"Zionists don’t want a two state solution."
and how many 'zionists' are there that don't want a two state solution?
my guess would be 10% max...
many israelis don't support the settlements at all
how many muslims are there that don't want a two state solution?
my guess would be many more as a percentage...
many many more...
interestingly, I heard there was research pre this conflict that found less than 40% of palestinians support hamas
post this conflict it flipped to 60/40 support hamas
I dare say a lot more israelis don't support a two state solution now...
its a clusterfuck
This is a recent poll that gives lots of figures on things like that.
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Po...
bonza wrote:Imagine if those gun toting NRA card carrying (mostly republicans Christian southerners) Americans were jihadists or jihad sympathisers? Compare that scenario.
Now do you get it?
The other day someone put up a link where Tulsi was saying Americans would never be safe until the Islamists are gone and that is a common refrain however the numbers clearly show that more Americans die in one state in one year from gun violence than those who have been killed by Islamist terrorists (in the US) in the last 25 years.
Instead of attempting to get a dialogue going about trying to reduce gun violence in their own country and potentially save tens of thousands of American lives each year some in the media don't even mention it but instead perpetuate the myth that islam is the enemy to Americans, on home soil, when clearly gun violence is the bigger threat.
Not saying that Israel doesn't have a problem though. Then again if you allow settlers and the military to harass people on their own land and lock up their teenage sons for throwing rocks, then surely it's only logical that there is going to be some form push back
seeds wrote:Bonza, maybe have a read of the links Jelly posted earlier. Interesting reading. Zionists don’t want a two state solution.
Are you serious? Of course they do. They have had multiple deals thrown out by the Palestinians.
Fliplid
I like Australian Gun Laws .
The US , for very special personal reasons , have very different Gun Laws written into their Constitution .
They don't own arms to protect themselves from Islamists !!!
It's to protect themselves from Government .
Just before the most , IF they have it , crazy Presidential Election , next year , this is very unlikely to be discussed by anyone atm .
I live in Melbourne .
We now have big Bollards , nearly , everywhere .
I have walked/bumped into many :)
I have thought about what I would do IF , someone did something or wanted to , on my tram commute .
I have a Man Bag ( satchel ) and am alert to things anyway .
Things are feeling a bit different , and not for the better .
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