Climate Change Research

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blindboy started the topic in Wednesday, 25 Apr 2018 at 10:07am

I thought I might again.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 4:55pm

Agree Andy

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 5:06pm

"Labor stuffed themselves over by offering something resembling an alternative, Syppo."

Wasn't really an alternative though andymo...

Pretty much more of the same

with some very unpopular window dressing...

Badly ddelivere...

All amongst a backdrop of a general feeling of no confidence, hopelessness, and even pity towards the labor party...

they're so shit they're beyond redemption...

with the exception of wong and plibesek that is, besides those two they've literally got nothing!!

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 5:22pm

From the comments section of the Age today

“And thus the Depression starts; our economic situation is identical to 1929 -
- record highest inequality
- record debt to GDP
- record private debt
- record near zero interest rates
- same absence of Keynesian spending
- same use of trade protectionism
- same tariff wall
- same emerging battle between economic "empires"

Three things in life are guaranteed - death, taxes and economic cycles.

We will call on a Depression for no other reason than people deny it as a possibility. Yet the MAIN CAUSE of the 1929 collapse was under-consumption - caused by inequality - where the workers cannot consume their own output.

We are experiencing under-consumption as we speak - a long, slow redistribution of wages to profit - the long term distribution that gave stability for 80 years have been broken, now the rich are channeling the money society needs into digital bank accounts and it sits, unable to be spent.

Get ready for it, because it is coming. You can argue all you like, but the collapse will be brutal and long lasting. It will not end until inequality has been reduced to the point where consumers have sufficient real wage increase to begin again to purchase society's output.

And that includes houses - they will NEED to drop 50% - because until our first home buyers can purchase a house, there will be no buyers returning any time soon, because once capital gains turns to losses, there is a panic for the exits, and the panic is palpable.”

Laurie McGinness's picture
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Laurie McGinness commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 5:35pm

Well let's hope not, but the risk is real and it is well worth looking at your financial situation with that in mind. I would suggest moving your super into cash until things become clearer.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 5:45pm

@Syppo
Wasn't an alternative??
That was the biggest and most obvious choice between those parties in decades.
Whether or not Labor walked back from those policies if they got elected is beside the point.
Labor was relatively upfront and offered specific alternatives and it will haunt them for a generation.
Australians chose short-term self-interest - they clearly stated that they're not interested in alternatives.
And so, the idea that Australia can turn its fundamental culture around in a matter of a decade or so is nonsense.
This country will need something much more than tens of billions of dollars worth of corruption and theft, much more than localised ecosystem collapse to shock it out of its consumerist greed.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 7:02pm

Im afraid consumerism greed isn't going anywhere, it's got nothing to do with liberal or labor, everybody just needs a fix these days, a sugar hit, a new toy, new technology, bigger better, the new latest model, 6 months to a year on and its old, everybody needs the new model, gotta have the latest model, even though the old phone or bike or car or whatever is perfectly fine.

It's possibly globalism that has fuelled this addiction, i bet we all remember as a kid everything we owned was so highly valued, that bike, that record, the toys, the family TV etc it was saved up for payed off for on lay-by.

Yeah it's great now most things are cheap as chips unless it's produced locally but it comes at a cost to the environment.

IMHO barely anything is cherished these days, really appreciated, to much instant gratification, hand me downs are a dirty word, air looms an unknown word, if its not shinny and new, its yesterdays news as worthless as an analogue TV or a 2 year old BBQ that joins the other BBQ's for hard rubbish pick up.

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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 7:43pm

I think you're right IndoD.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 7:52pm

The world turns on a dime , Andy.

If I’d told you four years ago that Trump would be President and he’d be the world’s greatest hope for slowing the relentless march towards complete capitulation towards China and that he’d be shaking hands with Kim in the DMZ , that England would be headed towards potentially regaining their sovereignty, that Bali would be trying to reduce plastic use , that South Oz had a massive Tesla battery as backup power , that Alan Jones would be leading the charge to end the war on drugs and that Kanoa Igarashi is number two in the world.....would you have believed me ?

Don’t ever fall for the histrionics of the fear mongers. Climate change hasn’t killed us all just yet . Nothing is set in stone. Who knws what kind of political white knight could emerge from the shadows in the next few years ?

The one thing the next few years DO promise is radical upheaval.

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Blowin commented Tuesday, 9 Jul 2019 at 8:01pm

Well done to those that voted independent BTW.

Centre alliance attempting to realign the weighting of interests regards Gas distribution could be the single most beneficial factor in preserving any form of resilience in the economy.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 12:20am

Blowin, like Indo said, this is bigger than political parties, bigger than nations.
Nothing you've said changes the fact that population is increasing exponentially and demand on resources is increasing along with it, actually demand for resources would be increasing faster as more people achieve a "higher standard of living".
I actually see climate change as being a relatively minor player in this whole thing, I think humans could maybe manage to get by with global warming but exponential population growth, wholesale clearing of vegetation, ecosystem collapse -this isn't going to turn on a dime and I see it as probably being terminal.
At best, we're looking at a future with incredibly poor species diversity - not much more than domesticated animals and very limited pockets of remnant vegetation.
I don't see this as histrionics, I think that in the unfathomably long history of planet earth, humans are just another little blip, as much as our egos want to tell us otherwise.
The 30 million species on the planet today represent less than 1% of all the species that have ever lived - in the greater scheme of thing, evolution does not care about humans.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 5:47am
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 8:48am

Now all these Asian countries dont want our waste, China and now much gets set to Malaysia and Indonesia.

News article from only yesterday on 210 tons of contaminated Aussie paper waste being rejected from Indonesia as contaminated.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-09/indonesia-to-ship-back-contaminat...

Everyone separates ways these days, but after it leaves our houses highly doubtful much gets recycled.

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 8:51am

Imagine if all these people and media and political parties etc jumping up and down about things like Adani mine actually made as much noise and focus on.

1. Use of plastics and all the issues the environment, and worked at getting companies to package things using less plastic or even a tax on plastics or bans etc

2. Actually getting recyclables recycled in Australia, has to be a way to make it profitable.

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Laurie McGinness commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 11:49am

Indo there is a lot of work being done on both of those issues. More importantly what you are suggesting is the equivalent of giving a cold priority in treatment over cancer. Sadly what you are saying probably doesn't even make much sense since the environmentally aware are already making an effort in those areas as well as climate change. Your post reads like the kind of crap people get paid to post, given that you keep expressing doubt about the science of climate change which is increasingly an absurd position, are you on someone's payroll to post this stuff or have you just been sucked in by bullshit?

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 12:14pm

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Laurie McGinness commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 12:37pm

All true in my case Guy! I hope you are similarly placed.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 2:13pm

Love your work indod

Transporting rubbish to the developing world to process is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen, ever! An insult to the countries they transport to, and a blight on western so called 'development'.

If one (ie. the powers that be) really cared for climate change and the environment, it wouldn't even be considered. Disgraceful behavior.

If the carbon foot print was calculated, it would be found to be an environmental disaster!

But this is the wonderous developments of globalisation that we are supposed just suck up and enjoy. All for a cheap TV!!! Beyond disgraceful!!!

I think it was sheepdog that posted an article years ago, pointing out that the emissions from global trade are not even counted in the rubbery figures of climate change ie. all those tankers and cargo ships get off scott free! Despite it being one of the biggest contributors. This is surely the biggest fraud we're expected to 'suck up' from the proponants and advocates of globalisation.

Even if it is included, it's disgraceful arrogant behaviour....

Ship you rubbish to the third world for 'processing'?

No problem, have we got a deal for you....

The whole globalisation/ free trade/ merits of trade schtick is a fucking hoax. Slowly being exposed for what it is....

Free markets for rubbish ...no problem ...we'll ignore the externalities...

Free trade with china ? ...no problem we'll ignore the externalities

Factories and recycling in oz? ....no problem ....oh wait hang on, you must pay this, and this, and this, and apply for this, ask approval for this, calculate this, and explain your control measures for this, and this, and this etc. etc. .....

The whole fucking system is built on a house of cards...

a house of cards? ...that reminds me of an ideology....

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 2:07pm

Know a guy that works in a power station in the UK that solely burns rubbish from Canada, yep worlds best practice right there.

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 2:07pm

Laurie, mmm sometimes but needlessly spends a lot of time on my case.

Laurie McGinness's picture
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Laurie McGinness commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 2:38pm

Do yourelf and the environment a favour. Green electricity at discount prices

https://www.powershop.com.au

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 3:37pm

"Indo there is a lot of work being done on both of those issues. More importantly what you are suggesting is the equivalent of giving a cold priority in treatment over cancer. Sadly what you are saying probably doesn't even make much sense since the environmentally aware are already making an effort in those areas as well as climate change. Your post reads like the kind of crap people get paid to post, given that you keep expressing doubt about the science of climate change which is increasingly an absurd position, are you on someone's payroll to post this stuff or have you just been sucked in by bullshit?"

What garbage the issues im talking about are 100% real issues, im talking about them because I see them first hand and every one of us can make a real difference..

IMHO plastics are the biggest environmental disaster of our time, im sure we have all seen the photos of areas of ocean that are a sea of plastic crap, rivers or land in places like Indonesia just full of plastic.

Turtles, birds, fish etc eating it and dying from it.

And it's only something that come about in our lifetime.

These issues are getting little press or public attention.

Wheres the rallies on the streets of our cities and endless stories about this?

Where's the political parties making this a focus?

Wheres the plastic or recycling election?

IMHO these issues are getting neglected because of the focus on things like climate change or Adani.

Climate change like ive said might end up being real it might not, we wont possibly know for ten to twenty years and reality is like ive said even if Australia vanished from the face of the earth the loss of C20 emissions would make no difference whatsoever.

The plastic issue and sending our crap overseas are 100% real issues, no doubts whatsoever, you dont need any faith to believe they are real issues, no scientist disagree on these issues, i doubt anyone does. (maybe someone does because there is some crazy minority somewhere generally online)

BTW. That's not to say forget the transition to renewables etc, 100% support that, but we need to make differences and change in areas were it's realistic to do so on 100% real issues where we really can make change, plastic and lack of recycling (and sending our crap overseas )

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 3:42pm

I've posted this before but can no longer watch it as it will take me to a dark place.

It's sickening and highlights what Indo is saying about plastic.

Try to watch it all they way through if you can

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/11/30/midway-plastic-island-nick-...

Accompanying text and article

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2016/12/world/midway-plastic-island/

D-Rex's picture
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D-Rex commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 4:51pm

A heap of contradictions in these posts makes me wonder what point these 'glass half-fullers' are trying to make?
'We are experiencing under-consumption as we speak' / 'Know a guy that works in a power station in the UK that solely burns rubbish from Canada, yep worlds best practice right there' (Guysmiley)
'This country will need something much more than tens of billions of dollars worth of corruption and theft, much more than localised ecosystem collapse to shock it out of its consumerist greed' (Andym)
'Transporting rubbish to the developing world to process is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen, ever! An insult to the countries they transport to, and a blight on western so called 'development' (sypkan)

Hang-on, the UK isn't a 3rd world country, while under-consumption is the exact opposite of consumerist greed. Suggest you pathetic moaners have a look past your front fence and see the great things happening in our world rather than crying over the ALP's election loss.

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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 5:04pm

onya indo! You're all over it! - especially for a 'right winger'.

As someone pointed out to me the other day... we now have a massive plastics problem, this came about because we all took on plastic bags etc.. to save the trees. A noble and neccesary problem at the time. But our solution, and wholehearted embrace of the solution was somewhat short sighted...

plantation timbers surely better...

Best thing about indo is buying takeaway and having it served to you in paper and a banana leaf - now that is innovation!

Sadly, with the indo's obsession with western ways, more and more these shops are using plastic and styrofoam containers, even printed franchise like, like you know who...

And really sadly, this seems to be a kind of status symbol, a sign that your food outlet 'has made it'... sadly indeed...

"Where's the political parties making this a focus?

Wheres the plastic or recycling election?

IMHO these issues are getting neglected because of the focus on things like climate change or Adani."

Yep! Exactly!

Absofuckinglutely exactly!

It's not just us supposed right wing nutjobs saying this, I posted a left wing article ages ago from an environmental scientist saying exactly the same thing.

It was 'dismissed', just like evetything else...

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brutus commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 5:11pm

blowin so Climate change hasn't killed us yet and there might be a white knight out there to save us......bit like having terminal cancer and treatment is that something might come along and cure it, really?

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brutus commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 5:18pm

sypkan and Indo , yeah it looks like humans are the "grasshopper and not the ants"...we continue to ignore warnings from the scientists who we pay ,about the affects of our consumerism and lack of regard what is really sustainable , the future does not look pretty for the next generations as there are whole bunch of baby boomers who believe , they built this great civilization and should be able to profit until the end of their lives ....and damn the consequences!

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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 5:32pm

"..., the future does not look pretty for the next generations as there are whole bunch of baby boomers who believe , they built this great civilization and should be able to profit until the end of their lives ....and damn the consequences!"

double onyas for brutus, call out the fuckers for what they are...

It's pretty clear many baby boomers are yet to realise the following generations aren't overjoyed with this model 'they built'.

How the peace and love generation became some of the most selfish, greedy, unrelinquishing power addicted, self righteous prats on the land I will never understand...

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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 6:11pm

I suggest u learn how to read D rex.

I never said the UK is a third world country. Or that we're transporting rubbish there.

But you interpret it however you wish...

These are post modernist times ...you believe whatever you like...

Everyone else does...

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 6:26pm

What i don't get is why haven't we moved back to the old paper bags, I'm a little younger than some of you guys, but i still remember supermarkets having fairly durable paper/card bags, and brown paper bags used for kids lunches at school etc or if you ordered your lunch.

Surely it would be better to use these paper bags again where possible than all this plastic?

I understand it may be a little more complex, cost, still need trees/plantations etc

So when we moved from these to plastic was it really to save on trees?

Or was it just about the new cool more thing?

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 7:25pm

""""Climate change like ive said might end up being real it might not, we wont possibly know for ten to twenty years"""""

Why would another 10 years make a difference? Climate scientists have argued it exists for 40+ years and it's been almost unanimously agreed by those groups for over 30years that action is required. I suggest the type of proof your looking for either doesn't exist or will be way way too late by the time it comes.

Don't be the frog boiling in the water.

Imo everyone needs an education in risk management. It removes the need for proof which as it so turns out is not how science works.

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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 7:31pm

"So when we moved from these to plastic was it really to save on trees?

Or was it just about the new cool more thing?"

A bit from column A and a bit from column B I'd say indod. With the vast majority in column A. column A was most definitely the intial impetus.

"What i don't get is why haven't we moved back to the old paper bags."

because we didn't plant enough trees?

Something else me and sheepdog discussed back then. How it is hard to take the whole climate change thingy movement too serious when the solution is right in front of their faces....

Argueing vehemently about a money mechanism whilst clearing more forest than ever in brazil and indonesia. 30 years of failure of negotiations, whilst their 'other' ideology encourages them to rape the poorest economies on the planet.

They've probably - we've probably - unlocked more carbon through these practices than all the transport etc. combined through this period. But no one really talks about it.

Then this week, those same brainiac scientist came out with a grand new announcement on how to tackle climate change....

"...plant more trees"

to quote sheepdog....

Bahahahahhahaha.....

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 7:31pm

"onya indo! You're all over it! - especially for a 'right winger'."

I don't think the environment should be a right or left issue, the environment is really just about looking after your surroundings.

Maybe thats half our problem, feeling if our political or social views are right or left, we feel we need to have a certain view on the environment and it's issues.

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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 7:33pm

...all over it again

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 7:36pm

I guess the problem is land is just worth too much in $$$ to use to plant trees for timber and pulp?

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sypkan commented Wednesday, 10 Jul 2019 at 7:48pm

not if u ask farmers, many have done it. Not only does it improve their land quality, they see improvements in their livestock as well. Combined with a circularing cash crop, not a bad outcome.

those nasty right wing farmers

And this is in oz!!

Tim flannery has talked about paying indo farmers to do the same. Stop them clearing more forest for palm oil, especially on unviable land. And pay them to manage the bush areas. As u know, incomes in indo are so pitiful it wouldn't cost so much.

Much much less than all the resources pumped into the 30 year talkfest over that period at a minimum

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brutus commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 12:00pm

Sypkan"It's pretty clear many baby boomers are yet to realise the following generations aren't overjoyed with this model 'they built'.

How the peace and love generation became some of the most selfish, greedy, unrelinquishing power addicted, self righteous prats on the land I will never understand..."
Coming from that Hippy era , I saw Hippies turn into Yuppies , as they were sold this incredible dream...credit....you don't have to save $'s to buy, we will let you pay us later....and with the boom in credit came consumerism , disposable mentalities , and that somehow this could be maintained infinitely with finite resources.......the cost to the planet and people lifestyles , was never measured , so now the grey haired baby boomers run the banks, politics and our climate policy's.......that's the big picture , and some how we are conned into discussing things like plastic or paper or glass , all smoke and mirrors to distract us from the coming bubble burst , which paints a grim picture for the next generations...

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 12:40pm

yep. Nice little summary brutus.

Fukn yuppies

Fukn hippies too from my perspective, my friends call me a hippy, but they kind of annoy me to be honest.. hippies not my friends, although...

I still don't understand how the boomers sold out soooo much. I get it a bit, as I get older I desire more comforts, but the consumerism part I have no problem resisting, it actually legit. makes me nauseaous.

And the credit!! Surely the dumbest, self wealth/status preserving move in human history. I agree, the big end to that is coming...

It comes back to restraint, modesty, and a desire to not be a capitalist pig. The hippes sold out big time, and as you point out, are now pulling all the levers, I don't expect miracles, but a little leading by example would go a long way...

especially considering they are so righteous, moralising, self assured, and confident of their generation's contribution to history.

Self deluded fools from my perspective.

some say that's progress I guess...

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-samsung&source=...

some pertinent lines in that song...

Laurie McGinness's picture
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Laurie McGinness commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 12:33pm

...."righteous, moralising, self assured,"

Sounds like the post containing it. Self-awareness? Zero

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 12:43pm

"...."righteous, moralising, self assured,"

Sounds like the post containing it. Self-awareness? Zero"

back to sheepdog....

Bahahahahahahaaa....

Laurie McGinness's picture
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Laurie McGinness commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 1:06pm

Aaah so it was the usual collection of unidentified quotes mixed up with your own thought bubbles. Still, you post it ..... you own it.

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 2:17pm

I'm not telling individuals how to think and act.

Just the moralisers where they've gone wrong.

Oh so woefully wrong...

Laurie McGinness's picture
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Laurie McGinness commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 3:01pm

Thanks mate, that post made my day! So moralisers aren't individuals and you are uniquely well placed to tell them where they have gone wrong. Hilarious stuff.

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 3:38pm

"Thanks mate, that post made my day! So moralisers aren't individuals and you are uniquely well placed to tell them where they have gone wrong. Hilarious stuff."

How'd your moralising go in may?

It appears u need all the help u can get...

So yeh, I'm 'well placed'.

Just about anyone is, absolutely anyone at all, it seems...

as long as your getting a laugh...

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 3:41pm

.....bcos I've been getting heaps

for months and months,

no actually years now...

Bahahahahahaha

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sypkan commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 3:51pm

I really am trying to help btw

one can only watch their team lose so many times before getting fired up.

the moralisers need a bit of demoralising it seems...

it appears to be the only way to ....er ....progress... for the so called 'progessives'....

otherwise, void of self reflection, they'll clearly just continue the regression, in every single sense of the word...

and context

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Laurie McGinness commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 3:59pm

So who's really barking mad?
"Woof woof". Must be Barnabubby trying to get in!
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2019/07/10/barnaby-joyce-climate-change/

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tubeshooter commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 4:33pm

Could Izzies legal battle have implications regarding climate change and what is taught in schools ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbR7os_q9k

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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 5:05pm

An aspect of climate change and move away from petroleum products that ive never seen discussed and surprised there is never talk off (and surprised ive not even come across conspiracy theories about)

IS:

How the move to renewables in particular move away from oil and petroleum products will change the power that countries have?

For example:

As we know USA has much interest in the middle east because of oil, many countries in the middle east are well off from oil.

Can we assume less need for oil will mean less interest from USA in the middle east?

And how will these countries be affected by taking away the demand for oil?...surely they will be big losers.

And how will this affect other big power players like China and USSR?

Could this advantage China further?

After all if all cars etc are electric then most batteries and solar cells will most likely be built there, (almost like a transition of the oil market to solar cells/battery market, if you know what i mean)

And even looking at increased temperatures.

Whats in it for individual countries?

For instance some countries like USSR (or whatever you want to call it now) could actually benefit greatly from a rise in temperatures, for instance it could open up vast areas of land to farming or make certain mining easier.

Remember countries like people are selfish and in it for their own good, so if the USSR was to benefit from increased temperatures why would they try to prevent them from happening?

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Laurie McGinness commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 5:06pm

I think that is unlikely in NSW tb as there is an established precedent for not teaching creationism on Science classes. Of course with a happy clapper as PM who knows what nonsense will end up on the curriculum.

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Blowin commented Thursday, 11 Jul 2019 at 5:43pm

.