Female surfers' fight for equal pay part of ongoing battle for recognition, respect

Catriona Stirrat
Swellnet Dispatch

"He'e wahine ka lani."

"The chief was surfing as graceful as a woman."

These are the words that introduce a chapter to surfer Lauren Hill's book, She Surf: A history of surfing.

The words make reference to the ancient Polynesian art of surfing, which was pioneered by women.

In April this year, surfer Lucy Small received $1,500 for first place in the Curly Maljam competition.

Her male counterpart received $4,000.

Small held up a cheque worth less than half the men's prize money and reminded the North Curl Curl crowd they had both surfed in the same conditions.

"Thank you so much to the sponsors for the money they've put into the event," she said.

"But I would say that it is a bittersweet victory, knowing that our surfing is worth less than half of the men's prize money."

Australian surfer Lucy Small calling out the difference in prize money in her speech after winning the Curly Maljam competition.

Following media attention, Surfing NSW changed its rulebook to make it mandatory for clubs affiliated with them to offer equal prize money to male and female competitors.

Global Surf Industries also offered Small the gap in prize money. But, for Small and many other female surfers, it's an ongoing battle for recognition.

While 90 per cent of clubs are affiliated with Surfing NSW, there is still a portion of clubs hesitant to offer an inclusive space and opportunities to female surfers.

Parliamentary in-roads

This resistance sparked Small's creation of the 'Equal Pay for Equal Play' petition, which called for NSW government grants to only be offered to clubs that commit to equal prize money, resources and opportunities for female surfers.

Greens MP Abigail Boyd's motion to the Upper House to support the campaign was passed just this week, after Greens MP Jo Haylen last week also moved a motion to support the petition in the Lower House.

"It's so exciting and I'm so happy to have our campaign recognised and supported by the Upper House … It feels like it's just a matter of time before we can get this legislated," Small said.

"It's a promising step in applying pressure from the whole Parliament to legislate the changes we're calling for."

Small hopes legislation for equal opportunity in surf clubs will remove the prevailing hesitancy of many young women and girls to take up surfing.

"One of the most common things women say to me is, 'I'd love to try surfing but I'm scared of all the men out there,'" Small said.

"And, sometimes, even I don't paddle out because the vibe in the water is so hostile."

Hostile environments

Small described surfing in Cronulla as "extremely challenging", when she is often one of the only women among 40 men.

"[It ranges from] older guys being patronising in terms of telling you where to sit in the line-up or how to catch a wave … to men seeing you paddling or being on the wave and cutting you off anyway," she said.

Small described an incident earlier this year when she was surfing at Crescent Head, where an older man surfing a heavy board ran straight into her head as he cut through a wave instead of pulling off, despite seeing her paddle out.

Lucy Small began surfing as a kid at Ocean Beach in her hometown of Denmark on Western Australia's south coast (Photo: @wen.surfphotography)

She was left with a mild concussion and a sliced shin, but no apology.

"I was sitting there with an ice pack on my head and, instead of saying sorry or asking if I was okay, the guy who ran me over went on to try to tell me how it was my fault and I didn't know what I was doing because I wasn't a local there," Small said.

"It could have given me a serious head injury, and for what?"

Petition 'necessary'

While she's optimistic about Surfing NSW's changes to the rulebook, she feels the petition is necessary to change some prevailing hostility towards female surfers.

Small said she knew of one club that continued to offer unequal prize money and had been resistant to her offers to work with them.

"I think that's sort of the idea behind the petition, to not just go, 'It's changing at the elite level' and hope that clubs and organisations will follow suit, but to actually try [to] push at the grassroots level at that stage when talent is being fostered … [that's] where the culture of surfing comes from," Small said.

She hopes that, through the petition, progress at this local level will change the drop-off rate for girls in their early teens.

More equal pathways

Small also hopes it will create pathways for female surfers to become more involved on all levels, including as judges, administrators of events, presidents of clubs and coaches.

She says many young women feel defeated when they see men reach heights in surfing and having more professional pathways.

"I've noticed that, even in myself, I can't be bothered dealing with all these men," Small said.

"The kind of culture that tells me I can't belong … it's exhausting."

While North Curl Curl club has committed to equal prize money at their next event, Small has never received an apology.

A different era

While many now view women's surfing as equally compelling — with the World Surfing League offering equal prize money for men and women — for long-time North Curl Curl club member and secretary Phil Nicols, it was a breakthrough to introduce women to competition a decade ago.

"You sort of tend to get lost in your own backyard," Nicols said in response to Small's mention of the club's unequal prize money.

"We've been running the company for the best part of 10 years, and we fell back into a groove where, right back in 2010, we gave the men more [prize money] than the women.

"I guess we had been a little bit blind or insensitive to the general community values."

However, Nicols said there might have been a greater complexity to the issue, one that responded to market desires.

"Is there not here, a question where there has to be some sort of the economics coming into the domain?" he said.

"Do you ever seriously think that women's rugby league or women's rugby union will ever get equal pay?"

Nicols pledged to enforce equal prize money and embrace social progress, but insisted the club "didn't do anything to demand an apology".

Familiar experience

For professional surfers such as Pauline Menczer, the pushback is familiar.

"This was a never-ending argument, back in the day, that the women will never surf as good as the guys," Menczer said.

"But how do you know if you don't put the same kind of effort into us?"

In 1988, Menczer won the women's amateur world title and, in 1993, the women's world championship — with Layne Beachley the only female competitor to outnumber her surfing event victories.

Menczer was a source of inspiration for Small, who had seen the iconic documentary 'Girls Can't Surf', in which the pioneering champion features predominantly.

"My response was being a bit proud as well, that the movie gave her the courage to speak up," Menczer said.

"All the women feel that way but, sometimes, you just need someone a bit more feisty to do the pushing."

Fighting a stereotype

Menczer fought plenty of resistance herself competing as a female, gay surfer with arthritis in the late 1980s and 1990s.

It was an era where female surfers were few and far between — and the response to them was hostile.

Menczer recalled a surfing competition at Huntington Beach where the men received around 10 times the amount in prize money as the female competitors.

After ending her thank you by saying she hoped the "event will be bigger and better next year", she was told to issue the organisers an apology or risk being fined for appearing ungrateful.

"The money was so pathetic," she said.

"If you won a major tournament, it was $8,000, and normally most surfers would only win one or two events a year, on average, about the same as the cost to travel the world."

She was a world champion surfer, but Menczer was humbled by the "wheeling and dealing" to make an income to simply survive.

The professional surfer was forced to steal cases of Coke cans from events, which she would sell from her van to pay for her accommodation, or sell Levi Jeans on tour overseas, for more than five times the price she paid for them in America.

At one point she couldn't even cover the costs to visit a doctor for her worsening arthritis.

Paving the way

In the late '90s, surfing clubs weren't a welcoming place for women, according to Cronulla Girls Board Riders Club president Jen Ward.

Establishing an all-female surf club was the solution to provide "a welcoming, comfortable place for women to come and surf".

"In our club, women are supportive of each other," Ward said.

"If someone catches a good wave, or does really well in a competition … everyone's lifting each other up".

Ward said she feels things have improved a lot for women in the surf, compared to the "aggression" of the '90s and early 2000s, where male surfers would often drop in on women.

However, many female surfers continue to sit on the periphery when they paddle out on the line-up, with some male surfers continuing to dismiss female surfing competitions.

Hogging the waves

Ward said women were "always battling men to stay off our bank", whereas the space was completely cleared during men's competitions.

In their last competition before lockdown in June this year, Ward said they had "problems with guys surfing in our comp zone".

Even after getting out the loudspeaker, she said some of the men refused to move.

"One girl paddled out and asked a group of about six guys to move to another bank because we were holding our comp … they laughed and kept surfing," she said.

Ward said while some move after being asked, others don't and they experience "some aggression in the water".

"There's some yelling, generally between older males," she said.

"I think it's that old-school mentality."

Mandating change

Kate Allman is a journalist and lawyer who frequently writes for surfing magazines and refuses to be intimidated by men out in the surf.

She was also the only person from surfing media to reach out to Small about her experience.

"It kind of boggled my mind that no one else would have asked her about it," Allman said.

Kate Allman has been a day one supporter of Lucy Small's 'Equal Pay for Equal play' petition (Photo: Clare Pluekhahn)

"It made me very mad because I'm very much about equality in female sport … I kind of thought, 'What can we do about this, legally?'"

Anti-discrimination law only applies to specific circumstances of employment or goods and services, meaning there's no law that prevents unequal prize money in a one-off surfing competition.

The petition to the NSW Parliament is, therefore, a solution to mandate gender equality by law in local surfing clubs.

If the motion is passed in Parliament and legislated, it will enforce that state government grants, funding and tenders are only offered to sporting clubs that pledge equal opportunities and prize money for female surfers.

"If you want to be sexist and find money elsewhere, go ahead, but state public money should be distributed fairly," Allman said.

Small reached out to her Summer Hill MP Jo Haylen to get the petition rolling, which requires 20 thousand signatures before it can be debated in Parliament.

Surfer Lucy Small encouraged Sydney MP Jo Haylen to meet with the NSW Sports Minister about equal pay in surfing competitions in July following the launch of the petition

Ms Haylen said she was "shocked" like a lot of people to find that Small received a smaller cheque on the podium.

Government has a vital role to play, according to Ms Haylen, to "ensure that when handing out taxpayer money to any sport at any level, that there is equality of access when it comes to our girls and boys reaching the pinnacle in their chosen sport".

A different approach

Not everyone agrees that a petition is the way to go, however.

Kate Moran is one of few female surf club presidents, running Manly Malibu board riders club.

While she doesn't excuse North Curl Curl club's unequal prize money, she say the call-out and petition could actually deter clubs from embracing social progress.

"I definitely think they should have had the equal prize money, but the way Lucy went about it, with all the publicity, I think was probably not the best way to go, because I know they are a local club and to run an event takes a lot of hard work," Moran said.

She says "information is key" and surfers should obtain the details of prize money at competitions so that they are not confronted at the event.

As president of Manly Malibu, Moran says it's fairer to approach the club beforehand and make suggestions before "all the organisation and hard work is done".

She is sceptical about whether denying grants to clubs that don't offer equal prize money is the right approach.

"It's not very fair, since you still have to put the time and money into running the competition," she said. 

Instead, Moran says the answer is getting more women "out there and in (men's) faces".

"I think men are very closed off. I think they need to come around to the idea, and when they are more open [to it], it'll draw more women into it," she said. 

"If they're stuck in their ways, we have to help change them."

'Surfer girl' image

For many, the blonde "surfer girl" image that Menczer confronted in the '90s still prevails.

There was a rise in sponsors desiring a particular image of female surfers, excluding world champions like herself whose appearance didn't fit the mark.

She recalled dying her hair blonde to mock the unfair beauty standards placed upon female surfers.

"There was a time when Serena Brooke started coming through and she was really hot, blonde hair," Menczer said.

"And then, all of a sudden, she started raking in the sponsorship money. I was devastated".

An established free surfer, documentary producer and writer, Hill has confronted similar beauty standards in her work with countless surf brands.

She talked about bikini photo shoot briefs "highlighting product and not necessarily what the product is doing".

"In men's surf marketing, it's often more peripheral performance-focused than women's surfing tends to be," Hill said.

While Hill says the industry is starting to offer a more complex representation of female surfers, the market is yet to fully embrace these changes.

Sponsors continue to give the most money to men, with many surf brands are "secretive" about how they distribute their funding across gender.

"Having worked with each of the major brands now, when you realise what the breakdown is for the women's versus men's marketing budget, it's exponential how much more men have to play with and how much more they're paid," Hill said.

From the inside

Sarah* (not her real name) was a women's marketing manager for a surf apparel company from 2015 to the beginning of this year.

It was a role that didn't even exist until she fought for it.

"There was only a marketing manager that covered both men and women's," she said.

"Basically I got to the point where I was like, 'This is ridiculous, the women's brand is bringing in way more money than the men's'."

Lauren Hill is a professional surfer, writer and producer who has spent the past decade exploring new waves and documenting surf cultures around the world (Photo: Ming Nomchong)

She described how there was no proper budget, and that women's marketing were simply given a bit of clothing for photo shoots, despite the fact it was about a 70-to-30 divide in female to male revenue for the brand.

Sarah said she was "kept in the dark", and her questions frequently deferred in meetings, when enquiring about the budget allocated to the marketing and sponsorship for male surfers.

She said she had to "fight tooth and nail to get some of the girls sponsorship money to compete overseas", only being allocated around $2,000 to sponsor a national longboard champion.

In comparison, many male surfers were being sponsored at a level that would cover their annual wage.

"It is a boys' club. Honestly, that's the only way to explain it," Sarah said.

"If you ever uttered those words to the general manager, he would blow up, but if you ask any single female employee that worked there, they would say the same thing — an insane boys club."

Not only it is an issue of sexism, but it's also economically disadvantageous, according to Allman. She believes sponsors are "missing out" on the thriving market of female surfers.

Ancient roots inspire new ones

Lauren Hill was raised on the small barrier island of Anastasia, on Florida’s east coast (Photo: Ming Nomchong)

Ancient Polynesian Goddess Hi'iaka was a consummate surfer and, according to legend, knew that surfing was the "perfect medicine for a broken heart".

Hill's book describes one myth where Hi'iaka resuscitates chief Lohi'au through surfing:

"Hi'iaka stood upon the surface of the water with her skirt of pahapaha seaweed and mokila grass fluttering behind her … nothing could compare to the beauty of this surfing."

The ancient roots of Polynesian surfing remain as concealed as its legendary origins of female surfing. Hill's book aims to fill this gap.

"If we look back at the ancient myths and legends of Polynesia, we see them brimming with the prowess of female surfers," Hill said. 

"Women were often regarded as the most powerful, athletic and competent surfers."

Hill identifies as an eco-feminist — a term that she uses as a way of "connecting the dots between different kinds of pollution that need cleaning up, whether it's the physical pollution on our beaches or the social pollution of sexism and racism".

In her various travels to lesser-known surfing communities in Europe, the Seychelles and in Polynesia, Hill observed how female surfers were deeply connected to the land and caring for country.

Lauren Hill now lives at Byron Bay, among the saltwater country of the Bundjalung nation (Photo: Getty/Ming Nomchong)

"Being connected with the ocean came with a foundational sense of responsibility to take care of the places that were taking care of them essentially," Hill said.

This knowledge of the ancient Polynesian prowess of female surfers, Hill says, serves as an historic "touchstone for modern surfing culture".

Inclusion still an issue

Observing the history of surfing as one of inclusion can replace the "prevailing white, Western colonial approach", where surfing culture has been one of "domination and separation".

Many female surfers are calling for their surfing styles to be embraced rather than criticised and compared with men's styles.

They say this is a vital step forward in making surfing culture a more inclusive space for women.

Surfing's feminine side

Environmental activist and founder for Surfers for Climate Belinda Baggs said surfing was what allowed her to finally embrace her femininity and inspired her to give back to the ocean.

Belinda Baggs was a key figure in traditional longboarding’s resurgence, with her elegant style and approach (Instagram: @jarrahlynch)

Baggs said she was always a "tomboy on the land", and never comfortable enough to embrace her femininity.

It wasn't until she learned to ride a heavy, single-fin longboard that she "actually felt feminine and proud of it".

"I was able to feel that because of mother ocean and the connection I had to the waves," Baggs said.

"So, it's sort of natural that now I've put all my efforts into trying to protect the one thing that's offered me so much by allowing me to be confident in my own skin."

For Small and other female surfers, the petition for equality is about more than just prize money.

It's about reaching a point where women's surfing is appreciated for the compelling and ground-breaking sport that it is.

© Australian Broadcasting Corporation. All rights reserved.
Photo of Pauline Menczer via Instagram @photogordinho

Comments

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:08am

This article seems so far away from my surfing experiences down here that it may as well be a different past time.
Good luck to the ladies with what they’re trying to achieve.

bbbird's picture
bbbird's picture
bbbird Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:07pm

'Equal Pay for Equal play' may enable equal male & female competition; if WSL & ladies really want equality.
Requires a change in the WSL judging system that values style; ie. attitude, flow & wave harmony over acrobatics (circus tricks) that currently favours some surfers: though eventually damages the even best.I have seen ie. Trick flip flick Injuries took out the best comp surfers in recent years, attempting acrobatics while landing on unpredictable platform. eg. Slater, JJF & Toledo.
It could be a Win / Win for many .....until the someone loses power, pride or money....

bbbird's picture
bbbird's picture
bbbird Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:24pm

A motor racing comparison is in the movie "Ford vs Ferrari" where power (money & influence) wins over style....
Where are Ford now....?

bbbird's picture
bbbird's picture
bbbird Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:49pm

Movie quote ..."another satisfied customer...?."

bbbird's picture
bbbird's picture
bbbird Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:09pm

Movie quote "Why should Ford listen to sales slumps" & customers; answer; meaning...perfection, victory, glamour, sex appeal....

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:25am

It's obviously purely about economic's who every pulls the most viewers, gets the bigger money, you only have a real case for equality of prize money if you can pull the same numbers.

Even now these numbers are pushed higher than what they would be if the womens events were run completely seperate.

Id expect something like the Malibu tour also receive far less for the simple fact of less viewers even the mens division, but if these comps received the same views as the mens tour they too would have a case for the same prize money.

In regard to standard of womens surfing which has jumped leagues in the last ten years, it's all about numbers in the water if there was just as many women surfers world wide the standard could in theory be the same, i dont think strength is a huge factor in surfing and if you look at things like gymnastics women have the ability to be just as good or better than men.

As for incidents in the water like in the story, if you were a women and this happened to you, you would most likely assume it happened because you were a women, but the reality is it happen to males all the time too, just because there are dickheads out there, obviously those dickheads dont do the same to those that are physically bigger than them though which puts women at a disadvantage.

Ive seen it work both ways with women surfers in the water, I've seen them pushed aside and snaked etc and ive seen them snake and do what they like when they know the locals especially if they surf good , seems to be more about their ability and who they know etc, which is no different to males.

Not saying its all exactly the same, but it's not so clear cut.

Gowsa's picture
Gowsa's picture
Gowsa Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:16am

And while we are there - Male Models should earn the same as female models.
Who Cares if the female Fashion and cosmetics industry is 1000 times bigger than the mens.
Never hear no chicks whingeing about that one !

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:23am

Ha , Ha now that is an interesting conundrum and something I never thought about.

Island Bay's picture
Island Bay's picture
Island Bay Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:20pm

Haha, been thinking of that one too.

And it's not just the big contracts, it's daily fees too, and all the way down to the lowly just-scraping-through.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:26pm

That's a truly shocking injustice, butt then there is this.

Screen-Shot-2021-10-26-at-5-24-52-pm

Island Bay's picture
Island Bay's picture
Island Bay Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:55pm

But the model comparison relates very closely with our surfing issue, wouldn't you say?

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 6:06pm

That’s been debunked multiple times. There is no pay discrepancy between sexes in Australia. It is illegal to pay different rates based on gender in Australia. Choose your job, choose your pay rate.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:45am

I suspect you might be looking at the wrong numbers there Indo. My suspicion after reading the article is that the women's clothing brands are doing better than the men's while the sponsorship deals for the men are better than for the women. Another issue though is that the image the brands present of women's surfing is that appearance trumps performance. Cool stylish longboarding does not represent the reality of women's surfing which is that most women have the same aim as the men, performance surfing. The distorted image may sell women's clothing but could be doing more harm than good in terms of developing women's surfing.

Lilly Pollard's picture
Lilly Pollard's picture
Lilly Pollard Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:01am

I still find it really hard to wrap my head around the fact that a lot of people like to keep making reasons for why women don’t deserve equal pay. I’ve heard all the reasons before, but none are valid reasons. The thing I’m most curious about is why don’t you want to see women succeed? How does this actually hurt you personally if a woman receives equal pay? Why not more “he for she” in sport? In the end, equality makes us all stronger. We should be lifting each other up, not constantly suppressing and demoralising someone who is worse off.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:53am

If you don't understand it you obviously don't understand basic economics of why companies sponsor events and provided prize money.

It's no different to why prize money between a QS event and the main tour is different, should they also receive equal prize money?

I mean if you want to have true equality you could just hold a mixed event with males and females competing against each other, but the sad reality is it would be 90% or more males and very unlikely a female would ever rank that high, so that situation would be even worse

Has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting anyone to succeed or being hurt by it all.

Sprout's picture
Sprout's picture
Sprout Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:19pm

You're a legend Lilly!

Spuddups's picture
Spuddups's picture
Spuddups Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:09pm

I think when considering the concept of equality we should be thinking about what kind of equality do we want? Equality of outcome or equality of opportunity? I'd urge people to have a think about these two separate concepts and how they relate to successful societies.

The statement that "equality has to be good" is one that could be expanded on, because I believe it's not necessarily that simple.

For example, consider two lawyers. Both work to the best of their abilities but one is for argument's sake twice as good as the other? Should they get paid the same? Should one female musician who gets millions of views get paid the same as another male musician who gets hundreds?
Should a 70 year old competitive surfer get paid the same as a 20 year old competitive surfer? In the case of competitive surfing should there be any different divisions at all? Wouldn't a completely open event be a type of equality? In more general terms is it a good thing if various sectors of society have different strengths and abilities? If so should we tolerate differences in how people go about their employment and their lives in general? Should we force people to conform to an ideal of equality?

Like most discussions around human affairs this subject is complicated. Trying to reduce it to a black and white dichotomy is asking for trouble.

I would add one final thing. Women make up 50% of the population. It they were to tune into woman's surfing on a regular basis then the female pros would be smashing it. What could women do to encourage women to watch surfing? Should this responsibility lie on the shoulders of men?

simsurf's picture
simsurf's picture
simsurf Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:20pm

Attacking peoples character doesn't really help a discussion or debate. I doubt there is a single person here who is against women surfing or having a career in surfing. As has been stated by other people, its economics. We are talking about money, not feelings. Its the same reason women players in the WNBA make $40K a year, while the men make millions. If the bean counters saw women generating the same revenue, they would be payed commensurately.

Edit: as in all things in life, the top few percent take most of the money, which leaves a small pool for the rest in the mens and even smaller amount for the women to share.

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 1:02am

Onya Lilly! You nailed it.. The swellnet demographic seems to generally be older white males who are stuck in their ways and would like to tear down anyone that threatens their pathetic egos. . Whatever an online ego is.
Your voice is a breath of fresh air. Thanks and good on you for putting these mugs back in their boxes.

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:35am

I am one of the old white farts with no ego (surfing ability going backward at an alarming rate). BIG generalisation bluey and totally wrong, some of the elderly gents on this web site are very open minded, more so than many 20 year olds I would hazard a guess.

joesydney's picture
joesydney's picture
joesydney Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:20am

Hi Lily, I have always wanted to ask this question in a safe space so here goes.
If I could use an example
- Lady Gagas net worth is $320 million and a ticket to her show is $325
- Xavier Rudds net worth is $1-5million and a ticket is $80 a show

Both work just as hard (I would assume) and play the same length show and I would argue Xavier is infinitely more talented - yet clearly there is a pay gap. Is that fair, why is not equal?

Sport, like music, is just entertainment. Stars get paid according to pulling power, bums on seats, eyes on screens and products sold. This is not equal for women and men in surfing so they are not paid the same.

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:30am

With the risk of better belted, isn't it grounded in how tough/daring you are and earning your stripes in death places like Chopes? Don't shoot me I am only trying to get to the why. Does equal mean equal or different equal and is that OK?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:01am

@BB

They might sell more womens clothing than mens clothing, but is sponsoring an event going to increase exposure or sales as such as sponsoring a mens event?

Highly doubt it, even women events would be watched mostly by men, those girls who buy surf clothes aren't even watching.

If you started a new brand and had the money to sponsor an event in some way, off course you would sponsor the mens event because that's where you would get the most exposure, if your brand became cool with the boys it would most likely also become cool wth the girls, but if a brand is cool with the girls only, success might not translate to the male market.

Plus girls mostly non surfers buy surf clothing because it's perceived as cool because of the whole exposure of main stream male surfing to the masses, we saw that effect in the 80s through the 90s really pushed by guys like Kelly becoming household names.

There is no conspiracy, companies put money where they get best returns for that money, if female surfing sponsorship was going to get them more exposure and translate to more $$$ they would put more money there.

evosurfer's picture
evosurfer's picture
evosurfer Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:17am

You dont pay Porsche money for volkswagon.

getbarrelled99's picture
getbarrelled99's picture
getbarrelled99 Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 12:12pm

shit comment

getbarrelled99's picture
getbarrelled99's picture
getbarrelled99 Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 12:12pm

shit comment

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 7:51pm

I think Evo meant VW bonnet.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:24am

"Small hopes legislation for equal opportunity in surf clubs will remove the prevailing hesitancy of many young women and girls to take up surfing."

Huh?
A tiny percentage of surfers, male or female are interested in competitive surfing.

Making a connection between what happens in the tiny, insulated world of local competitive surfing and what the wider general surfing population, male of female thinks is a way off base.

For most people, male and female, surfing competition is a hassle they try and avoid.

It seems incredibly disingenuous to try and tie female participation in surfing with what pro-am surfers are getting paid.

tango's picture
tango's picture
tango Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 3:57pm

I have to agree with FR and also with goofy foot's earlier comment, and I'm probably going to get clubbed by someone for this but....

It must be very difficult sometimes being a female surfer, but I think a lot of that depends on the context. I've surfed for nearly 45 years, my wife surfs, my daughters paddle out at times and I know a lot of female surfers down here, and my experience in a club and just going surfing is so vastly different to what is described in the article.

By way of clubs, I'd like to do a shout-out to the Surfcoast Longboard Club who would have to be the most inclusive and welcoming club I've heard of. Even before the current President Penny took up the mantle, the club was open and welcoming thanks to the likes of John Lane and others. My wife has loved being part of it, and one of my daughters has been able to have a crack too.

I'd be a lot more open to an argument about barriers which firstly separated competition from recreation, and then talked about the vagaries of female participation in a more honest way. Whether I like it or not, my hackles come up when I read sweeping generalisations about women in surfing - this is mainly due to witnessing women practising the same kind of behaviour that they rail against men for. I've had to call the 16yo girls off waves in heats to give my 13yo a wave as they just paddle around her and go again - no taking turns. I've had to call loads of lady loggers off waves after they drop in on the shoulder at Rincon, and watch the girls at Noosa on 9'8 logs paddle straight past everyone and go...again. Equally, I've witnessed blokes drop in on my wife, or paddle around her because they're a better surfer and can exploit their ability. It strikes me that anyone who perceives they have an advantage will try and exploit it regardless of their gender.

Even though it's a long piece and it covers a bit of ground, I think there's a lot more to it than the article would suggest. I'm looking forward to the day when someone is able to string the full picture together and express the frustrations of women in the water while recognising that it's a highly competitive environment to begin with, and that many blokes are also subject to the same argy-bargy of a crowded, competitive lineup.

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simba Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:27pm

tango you nailed it.....

zenagain's picture
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zenagain Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:28am

Why not just have no prize money?

Then everyone is on an equal footing.

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Balbero Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:57pm

Brilliant.

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velocityjohnno Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 7:32pm

Because when everyone's special, no one's special. - Syndrome

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blindboy Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:55am

Yes and no freeride, yes the majority have no real interest in competing, but no, it is not irrelevant as the on site interest here demonstrates. Young surfers look to the pros to set the standard. In brand advertising men are presented with images of high performance surfing, women with bikini clad longboarders ...and that is not a realistic image of women's surfing and, in a real sense, denigrates the achievements of high performing women.

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Spuddups Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:23pm

Are the bikinis for the benefit of men or woman? An interesting question. It could be similar to the red carpet dresses at the Oscars which are almost certainly worn for the interest of women, and by extension to fill the pages of women's magazines. My point is that blaming the objectification of women in surfing on men is fairly simplistic. The concept requires some deeper thinking, and perhaps the abandonment for a time of some preconceived dogma.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:00am

I wasn't talking about the objectification. of women, I was talking about the disrespect to their surfing ability. Put the longboarder in a wetsuit and my point still stands.

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Spuddups Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:32am

Okay, fair call. It would be interesting to study surf media in a more scientific way and see exactly what proportion of women's surfing is portrayed as longboarding. Also what proportion of female surfers are longboarders. Compare all this to the men and we'll have ourselves some useful data.

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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:52am

Good call Spuddups. It might be that the actual surf brands are doing the right thing and it is those marketing other products that account for the longboard images. I will make more detailed observations!

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Faunt Leroy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:17pm

I find it funny that "surf brands are objectifying women by advertising them surfing in bikinis".
The people that find it offensive need to look at what most, actually all women that don't surf are wearing on the beach. Are those same companies to blame for women that don't surf wearing bikinis on the beach?
I'm sure I can recall women wearing bikinis on the beach back in the 50's or 60's was a huge step for female empowerment....now its objectification.
Go buy a Surfers Journal, you'll see men in warmer climates surfing in boardshorts and women surfing in bikini's, you will also see the same attire being worn on the beach.

By the way, equal prize money yes.

belly's picture
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belly Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:02am

blindboy gets it.
I have a feminist partner, I'm far from an expert and there is always lots to learn about what equality really means...

tango's picture
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tango Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:37pm

I can only suggest that you have teenage daughters if you feel the need to be set straight and brought up to date in the 21st Century, belly. Quite the education.

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old-dog Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:04am

So should the women AFL players get the same million dollar pay deals as the men?
What if a local club has 40 male frothers and two or three women, give half the prize money to the ladies to split ? When I grew up 99% of girls weren't interested in surfing and were all hell bent on stopping their boyfriends from wasting their time surfing. Now they want to rewrite history to make themselves victims of some white male conspiracy which stopped them from partaking in the sport. In my 55 years surfing I have never met anyone who is against women surfing, in fact quite the opposite is true.

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bluediamond Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:57am

Gosh, who would have guessed, old knob would have nothing meaningful to add to the convo....again! haha. Yep, definitely an old KNOB!!!

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:21am

.......and perfectly on cue.
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/beach-chic-is-my-thing-inside-s...

Can't wait for Owen Wright's summer wardrobe update.

No disrespect to Stephanie Gilmore. You take your opportunities and do the right thing by your sponsors.

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evosurfer Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:25am

old-dog your the only realistic person on here spot on 100% correct.
Most of the rest who seem to have a expert opinion on every subject
on swellnet always the same guys I wonder if any actually surf or
just go to different sits to express their opinions and argue with there
combatants.

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frog Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:53am

Fortunately waves just don't care about any of these issues. They roll in no matter what and if you can dodge the crowds and are in the spot you can hitch a ride.

But anyone who tries to make money from riding waves, of any sex, race or socio-economic background, is heading away from what can be a very simple pursuit into the vortex of complexity and stress. They are putting themselves at the mercy of an array of economic and social forces that often don't have their best interests at heart.

It is a choice. Mostly it is the wrong choice.

If you can dodge crowds, another set of issues falls away.

Harder these days but still a choice.

old-dog's picture
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old-dog Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:54am

Truth is the top handful of pro women surfers are great to watch and would no doubt win a few heats in the mens comp but some of the lower ranked ladies on tour can be excruciating to watch and look more like an average to good male surfer. I don't buy this women's surfing is not better or worse but different due to body shape. Hot surfing is hot surfing and prize money should be based on ability not gender. Surely true equality would mean no separate comp for women, but I could be wrong and have been called a tad chauvinistic. Cheers.

evosurfer's picture
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evosurfer Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:27am

old-dog thats the trouble with the new world nobody is allowed to
speak the truth it may offend 0.01% of something and considered not
politically correct and you would be labelled as some type of monster
by a bunch of self interest nothings.
Equality women dont want true equality that means they would have
to earn it and have to face responsibility for their actions. Only way
to have equality is have them combined and let the better person win.
Everything you stated is so accurately correct.

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soggydog Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:23pm

I would imagine the costs of being a competitive surfer don’t change based on gender. Airfares, accomodation, coaches etc.

Spuddups's picture
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Spuddups Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:29pm

You're allowed to say pretty much whatever you like in society, and as such people are free to return the favour. If you can't handle this fact then it's probably better to keep quiet.

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Fritzy28 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:32am

Yes i agree Open sport rightup,The best male or female gets the prize in surfing swimming running rugby afl weight lifting gymnastics any sport, not gender based and the ladies would see how equal we really are. Fritzy

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Optimist Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:47am

I think they should get equal payment as it’s only money after all and if it makes everyone feel better why not. At the end of the day the real coin is in selling weetbix , audis, surfboards , etc etc by sponsorships and if your really any good at all and loyal to the brand, your main income will come from that.

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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 12:15pm

So should equality, be at the expense of any commercial realities? Should pay/competition equality only be driven by the need to pay both genders the same? There could be an argument that we are teaching our daughters, sisters etc etc that equality is guaranteed even if you don’t deserve it based off what can be generated in a commercial environment…turning up is enough and that is all that is required from you.

Also, as the pendulum swings in favour of woman in same cases (teaching for example)…do we then have to promote men to balance the ratio?

I don’t know the answers but as a father of 2 girls I am invested in equality for all.

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nextswell Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 1:25pm

Gender should be inconsequential. If you are lucky enough to earn money from playing sport it should only matter, how many bums are on seats and how much merchandise your talent is selling. I can’t see how anything else matters.

dandandan's picture
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dandandan Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:20am

It's so incredibly sad that the only future you can imagine is one that is driven by consumerism. Think bigger mate.

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bashl Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:27pm

while we are at it lets pay the garbo the same hourly rate as doctors.

cash is only paper with pictures and sticky tape on it anyways

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campbell Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 3:04pm

Please leave this bank so we can hold a contest here ha ha I'd have laughed at you too, take your contests and fuck right off
Equal pay for contests won't be an issue with no contests
Posing for Instagram pics of your surfer lifestyle can fuck right off too
Statement covering all sexes

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velocityjohnno Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 7:46pm

"1,000 years from now there will be no guys and no girls, just wankers. Sounds great to me. Sounds great to me." - Renton in Trainspotting

(very ahead of it's time)

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hilly Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 3:49pm

Do women need to surf the same amount of heats as the .men's?

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mbee Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:12pm

Shouldn't equal prize money relate to an equal average per competitor?
For example, if there are 48 males and 24 females and the prize pool is $72,000, the average prize per competitor is $1000.
Isn't it fair to split the prize pool proportionally by the numbers of competitors?
In this case it would be:
48 Men: $48,000
24 Women $24,000

The males have a 1/48 chance of winning and the females have 1/24 chance of winning.
Statistically that is fair and it reflects the financial realities of 48 surfers costs being higher than 24 surfers.

Having equal prize money for unequal sized competitor pools is not actually equal pay. Under that model the women are being paid more per person.

If there were the same number of women competing as men, then to pool should be split 50/50.

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gsco Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:27pm

It’s a sensitive topic that I think us men would not fully understand or be able to relate to.

But I think the article is too provocative, too disconnected from reality and most people’s experience (as many have mentioned), too sensationalising and taking of things far out of context, at times outright bizarre, and has unnecessarily strong and confrontational feminist overtones. But it’s from the ABC so that explains it - just standard media junk trash.

I don’t think the article advances its apparent cause in any positive or constructive way, but largely shoots itself in the foot and spends most of its time in some weird fantasy la-la land.

Anyone looking from the outside in at surfing and reading that article will get a completely ridiculous and inaccurate picture of the surfing culture and the state of women’s surfing.

But it would be fantastic to have some more women contribute to the comments, instead of just one (that I can tell) quite angry comment that appears driven by emotion and isn’t entirely well thought out..

Actually I reckon it would be amazing to have a whole forum thread solely devoted to women’s equality and the state of women’s surfing which is thrashed out equally between men and women contributors with as much vigour, stamina, persistence, commitment, deranged logic, personal attacks, dummy spits etc as the other forum threads…! Now that would be really cool and I think everyone and both genders (and all the other genders nowadays…) would learn a lot and get a lot out of it.

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:56pm

Are you talking about the above post from Lilly?

Hardly angry or driven by emotion. What a strange way to interpret what she said.

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gsco Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:12pm

Yes, and well she's making accusations like:
>why don’t you want to see women succeed?
>How does this actually hurt you personally if a woman receives equal pay?
>constantly suppressing and demoralising someone who is worse off

That's just emotional dumping of inaccurate, provocative junk that has no information content.

I have never witnessed or seen any of those things towards women in the surfing culture that she's accusing people (well men) of.

Saying worthless stuff like that is not contributing positively to debate.

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:50pm

It would be pretty good for women, if you were also an expert in women’s reproductive health. :)

Spuddups's picture
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Spuddups Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:57am

That's an unusual thing to say Roadkill. Would you like to elaborate?

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nextswell Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:35pm

Again it’s inconsequential how many pro women are competing and how many heats they surf. If they pulling in as much interest as the men and selling as many bikinis as board shorts they should be paid equally. Tennis is a great example, equal pay on pro tour despite women only playing 3 sets. However the interest in women’s tennis in more recent years is equal to men, so they should be paid equally. We need a shift towards unbiased merit based reward rather then this person got that, therefore so should I.

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:49pm

.

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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:50pm

Men discussing women's equality. Pretty ironic really.

Really to understand we need more females to participate. But, I doubt that will happen.

Like that photo a while back of the Saudi Govt women’s rights ministry. About 34 men sitting around with zero women to be seen.

Ellen's clam's picture
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Ellen's clam Tuesday, 9 Nov 2021 at 5:30pm

Oh golly gosh! Yes this is exactly like Saudi Arabia! Men are bad REEEEEEEEEEEEE

brett68's picture
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brett68 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:05pm

equality -
1 open competition
Women competing versus the men
in every sport
Can't be any fairer
Good luck girls

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:05pm

Physiologically men and women are not equal. So 1 competition for both sexes is unequal and unfair.

milney's picture
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milney Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:01pm

the fact that you ended your comment with 'good luck girls' rather than 'good luck girls and boys' perhaps reveals an (un)conscious bias in relation to this issue?

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brett68 Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:00am

no bias just fact, in the physical arena, men are superior - there would barely be any women make a living (let alone equal pay) except for the hot "Kournikovas" who get endorsements
In the real world (social, business etc), women are superior in many areas but the contest levels up overall
These are facts but woke/PC conditioning will prevent a lot from saying it

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Spuddups Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 10:11am

I would dispute your facts. You mention Anna Kornikova so perhaps it would be of some value to consider women's tennis more thoroughly. Yes, if you made the women play against the men in Tennis then they would get a toweling, however Tennis is an excellent example of a successful women's sport. It is quite able to stand on it's own two feet, and the quality of tennis for the viewer is excellent. Duly the top women's players are paid well. I think it would be fair to say that an amalgamation of woman's and men's tennis would be a pretty bad commercial decision for the powers that be. Woman's tennis makes money.

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brett68 Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:03am

I was saying if there was just 1 open comp, few would make it in any sport - it was just the notion of women wanting a level playing field in life - I wholeheartedly agree with this and who wouldn't - with men and women, it should be equal ability, equal reward
- in sport however, they want equality when and how it suits them.
Agree with the commercial decision point you make, and that will be how almost all decisions will be made
With the PC culture on gender issues, how many blokes in the future are going to 'identify' as a god knows whatever type of human so they can get in the women's side of sport and just dominate - the ones so far (the NZ weightlifter and the AFL player) weren't actually any good so nothing much became of it. If we get a bloke at say no.30 in the world who thinks I've put in a life of dedication, now I want a payoff , then look out
As a sports nut (playing and watching) all my life, it's a subject close to my heart, you want to marvel at the best and at times women are that - In AFL, I find the women unwatchable but in racing, I have no hesitation on putting my $ on Jamie Kah who is incredible

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:23pm

I find a lot of the comments here are seriously behind the times. The culture has moved towards greater equity. One of the learning curves that seems to have passed you by is that treating everyone the same does not create equity. It maintains the advantage of those already in the most privileged positions. Equal opportunity is created by expanding the chances for those starting at a disadvantage to catch up. Anyone who, even now, believes that women start in surfing on an equal footing with men is kidding himself.
50 years ago I watched as one of the most talented local surfers was driven out of the sport by the shallow sexist crap she had to put up with. Some progress has been made in recent years so there are now more women in the water but they are always in the minority, often alone, and as the comments here demonstrate, always exposed to the bad attitudes of the middle aged dinosaurs amongst us.

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:13pm

I wouldn’t single out just the middle aged.

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simsurf Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:26pm

I don't know where you surf, but at some spots here their are more women than men on a regular basis.

Island Bay's picture
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Island Bay Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 4:45am

Seen a lot of stuff from you that I disagree vehemently with, but this takes the cake.

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Island Bay Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:11am

That was in response to blindboy, btw.

nextswell's picture
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nextswell Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 6:27pm

Equality, not male or female equality. Sport is now a business.
I open a coffee shop down the road with my wife. We are going ok but we don’t sell as many coffees as the couple running the shop across the road. Should we still get the same income?

zenagain's picture
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zenagain Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:00pm

Maybe you should have opened a coffee shop where there were no others?

( metaphorically speaking )

nextswell's picture
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nextswell Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:07pm

Haha maybe.
I’ve found a spot on the MNC where no one else regularly surfs. A couple of top notch coffee shops already established.
The system of yesterday has always favoured men irrespective of merit. I had a daughter 10 days ago I don’t want that for her but I don’t want it all given to her either.

zenagain's picture
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zenagain Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:43pm

You had a daughter 10 days ago and opened a new business?

Awesome! Congrats on both counts. Hope all goes well.

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:12pm

Then maybe paying women and men equal prize money was a business decision.

nextswell's picture
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nextswell Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:10pm

Ps apologies if some comments don’t make sense, insomnia has set in.

dandandan's picture
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dandandan Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:30pm

It's a no-brainer. All athletes should be treated equally. Prize money for competitions ought to be exactly the same, regardless of any arguments about economics be they real or imagined.

Another no-brainer: the less capitalism in surfing, the better our surfing experience will be. I don't think there should be anyone making hundreds and thousands, let alone millions, from surfing. Most pro-surfers, especially the wealthy ones, derive their huge incomes from fast fashion for non-surfers and sponsorship deals with companies that use surfing to sell completely irrelevant things. It doesn't help people or the planet.

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nextswell Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 5:03pm

To be honest mate I couldn’t care less if any of them got paid to do what they love. Back in the late 70s and early 80s my grandparents were avid members of the wynnum manly footy club. Wally would have a beer with the supporters after a game. Those days are gone sadly.
Surfing is a lifestyle, the fact that anyone gets paid to do it and somehow makes a living out of it is baffling. Hats off to them I guess. That $ has to come from somewhere though whether business or a surf brand selling overpriced gear. Common sense says they want something in return whether it be viewership or sales. Gender should have nothing to do with this.

Solitude's picture
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Solitude Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:36pm

Blokes talking about what women should or shouldn’t have is like white fellas telling indigenous people how to live...........

I was showing my daughter the WSL challenger series rankings today and she says to me, ‘Dad how come only 6 girls get to make it (to the ‘CT) but 10 boys get to?’..........good bloody question .......a tough one to answer and really there should be nothing to answer. It’s shit, there should be nothing but equal opportunity, FULL STOP.

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oxrox Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:53pm

Equal pay has to also equate to equal output. Same amount of competitors, same amount of heats etc. In my whole time surfing i never witnessed a female in the water being abused or run over. I have seen plenty of aggression male to male. Most times with female surfers there is encouragement. At times when its pumping and some girls and also guys who cant handle the conditions there will be a lot of times where the surfers who can handle the conditions will take more waves. Every time I`ve surfed with females who can handle those conditions they have been more than encouraged to go. There really seems to be a thing in society these days to pick out singular incidents which aren`t the norm and run with it. There`s dickheads everywhere but they are well and truly the minority. Personally think its great to have females surf. I have 3 daughters.
Still cant get my head around tennis equal pay ... best of 3 sets to best of 5 sets... how is that equal? Good luck to them though.

Annette's picture
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Annette Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:19pm

Leaving aside the issue of equal pay, I want to respond to the comments on this forum saying they have never witnessed a woman being abused in the water. I'm not saying you are lying, but what you notice and what is happening may be two vastly different things. I am nearly 60 and have been surfing since the late 70s. And I can tell you that there have been too many times in those decades that being in the water has meant dealing with everything from open hostility to cringeworthy condescension, to underestimation of my ability and being dropped in on constantly. And yes being openly and agressively questioned about being a woman and being in the water. So no oxrox, it is not all 'equal' playing fields out there. And yes I've been snaked by other women and been pissed off by bad attitude and surf etiquette by both men and women, but it's only been the blokes that I've ever really worried about physicaly hurting me. And not for being an arsehole in the water or doing something stupid... but simply for being a woman in the water riding a surfboard. Obviously this is not the whole story of being in the water... being a surfer is still one of the best parts of drawing breath in my opinion. But please don't discount that women haven't been treated very differently in the water. When you do that you are just betraying a blinding ignorance of what is happening right in from of you.

Spuddups's picture
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Spuddups Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:03am

Annette, I think most people would agree that the perceived threat of violence, real or otherwise in crowded surf is generally perpetrated by men, (which is a serious issue that us men need to resolve somehow), however my belief that threat is equally distributed. Why do I believe this? Because I have good female surfer friends and I have observed how they are treated. Generally better than blokes of similar ability from my experience. Is it possible you feel threatened because you just happen to be in a generally toxic environment, not because you are a woman? Could you entertain that concept? Do you have any idea what it's like to surf a crowded spot as a man? I would hazard a guess that you have no idea. I think you would be shocked at what we have to deal with.
The good news is that things are gradually getting better. Partly because of what is considered acceptable behaviour in society in general, but also possibly because there are more women in the surf. Something that most men are keen to encourage.

gsco's picture
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gsco Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:22am

Annette, I personally really appreciate your contribution and comments, and I hope you continue to engage.

You said you experienced things like:
> dealing with everything from open hostility to cringeworthy condescension
> underestimation of my ability
> being dropped in on constantly
> snaked by other women
> been pissed off by bad attitude and surf etiquette by both men and women
> only been the blokes that I've ever really worried about physicaly hurting me

We men also experience all of these things and more I would estimate EVERY single surf we have in a lineup with more than a few people.

Surf lineups are competitive, aggressive environments for everyone and they operate under different rules than on land. On any given day it's totally normal for only a small handful of people to get all the good waves, while everyone else battles it out for the scraps (and often go home pissed off and feeling hard done by).

I was wondering about what would be your honest estimate of in your surfing lifetime how much of this behaviour directed towards you was simply due to being in this environment compared to being female?

Annette's picture
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Annette Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:14pm

Hi gsco, Yes all the things I listed are the standard behaviour in the modern line-up. Everyone cops a flogging in the dog-eat-dog world that is a crowded surf. And really I can't anymore comment on how it is to be trying to cut it in the thick of it anymore. That's not where I'm sitting. So I'll leave it to those who are to comment. But you ask about my lifetime's experience. Well, open hostility or threats were reasonably rare, but snark and gender specific slurs were par for the course most of the time. Yes you could say it's just banter, but hey it's isolating and enervating.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:31pm

You should try get punched in the face for contrast. It makes slurs sound quite attractive.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:47pm

I think that represents a new low. I could be wrong. I probably missed some of his worst work. Telling a woman to get punched in the head ffs. How sad, pathetic and offensive can you be in single sentence. You need help mate.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:53pm

What? A fellow surfer is saying how awful it is to be on the receiving end of snide comments whilst surfing and I contrasted that with the physical violence some are subjected to. I think it’s you that needs help “mate”…..in comprehension and preventative measures from jumping to conclusions.

You do love you some offence taking on the behalf of others dont you mate? You’ll find you some proxy offence to whine about even if it means inventing it from scratch.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 1:02pm

Aaah so it's all OK, you were just telling gsco to get punched in the head because....he disagreed with you. Gets down to violence pretty quickly with you. When rational argument fails and insults don't intimidate, just punch them in the head. Anyway do your worst mate, no-one cares.

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gsco Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 1:17pm

BB are you misinterpreting things here?

I think blowin was empathising with Annette by saying something like “a few snide remarks is probably not so bad compared to getting punched in the head”?

Btw I once say a nasty dust up out Burleigh..

I also don’t mind if blowin wants to punch me, can live with that..

Annette - thanks for sharing your insights. Would be great to have another 25+ women & girls with solid surfing experience commenting and dishing out their fair share of banter. Btw pls ignore these two when they get like this - they seem to not like each other and it appears to go back quite a ways.

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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 2:14pm

OK maybe I over reacted but the logic now is apparently that slurs are OK because getting punched in the head is worse and as blokes get punched more often women shouldn't complain about verbal abuse.

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AndyM Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 1:24pm

BB you're being ridiculous.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:03pm

Just trying to fit in.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:58pm

Maybe with Hutchy.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:21pm

Hutchy is just the culmination (I hope) of a trend.

Annette's picture
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Annette Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:47am

Hi Spuddups. Yes I am aware that male-on-male violence is serious and real problem and because the numbers in the line-up skew so heavily to men, then most of the victims of actual assaults will be men. I am happy for you to believe that women get treated better than men in the water, but as you say your belief and as such open to dispute.
Yes the surfing environment can be overtly toxic and I feel sorry for young boys having to survive with the level of aggression that can be the norm in the line-up.
Also an honest question, why do you assume that over the past 40 years I haven't been in crowded line-ups and witnessed the dynamics that go on. I have lived and surfed in a variety of places urban and regional, here and overseas. Surfed intense urban breaks and isolated solitary breaks. Toxicity not always part of the mix in any of the above but not confined to be ruled out anywhere.
As for things getting better yes they are. The dial is definitely moving. But I believe we have a ways to go.

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Blowin Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:11pm

“I feel sorry for young boys having to survive with the level of aggression that can be the norm in the line-up”

Why? Boys attitudes need to be tempered and shaped by challenge. Otherwise you will end up with insipid and ineffectual men who cannot cope with the conflict they will experience as a natural part of life. Masculinity and aggression is not toxic by definition. That is a modern fallacy.

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Island Bay Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 12:48pm

Amen!

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dandandan Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 2:17pm

Not sure why anyone needs to deal with aggression just because they have a dick, and I really don't think accepting aggression as a norm is taking us in a better direction. I cope with conflict through honest conversation, empathy, and compromise - and given how resistant too many men are to taking such an approach, I feel it's far more challenging than simply reverting to aggression.

My masculinity has nothing at all to do with aggression and I'm not sure why you've put the two together.

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Island Bay Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:16pm

History.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:36pm

I've read my fair share of history and all it tells me is that violence creates more violence at every level from the individual up to the international. Those punched in the head are likely to punch other heads etc etc right up to total war.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:39pm

For sure.

Aggression has never been deployed for betterment. Like the time the allies won WW2 by sending flowers to Hitler.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:46pm

.......but where did Hitler come from?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:27pm

Who cares. Neutered boys didn’t stop Hitler. Aggressive men stopped Hitler.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:39pm

Who cares? Several generations of historians who unanimously point to WW2 being a direct consequence of the reparations forced on Germany after WW1, in which Hitler fought. To take it back one step further, a single shot in Sarajevo triggered WW1. Without the assassination of the Archduke, there may have been no war. So the entire destructive history of Europe in the first half of the 20th century would have been avoided. Violence creates violence.

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Blowin Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:43pm

Well done mate. You’ve convinced yourself that I might forget the original point….that masculinity defeated Hitler.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 8:15pm

As you forgot/ignored my original point.

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velocityjohnno Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 8:05pm

BB you need to mention the flaws in the system of alliances that cascaded declarations of war, that followed that shot.

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Spuddups Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 1:23pm

"Also an honest question, why do you assume that over the past 40 years I haven't been in crowded line-ups and witnessed the dynamics that go on. I have lived and surfed in a variety of places urban and regional, here and overseas."

I do not recall making such an assumption. I merely pointed out that since you have no idea what it's like to be a bloke in the surf then you can't really be 100% sure that you are being singled out because you are a woman. What we probably need is to find a trans surfer who's experienced both sides. That would be helpful aye.

Also it's not the actual violence that's the main problem per-se, I actually don't know anyone who's ever actually been hit in the surf, it's more the threat of violence that's the issue.

Just as an aside I spent three years at teachers college in the early 90's which was 95% female in those days. I got to witness first hand some of the best and worst of femininity. Men do not have a monopoly on undesirable aspects of human behaviour, that was my takeaway by the end of it. Generally the nasty stuff was targeted at each other rather than us (men) which was good for us at any rate.
This observation is in no way an attempt to down play the work that men need to do to improve themselves, but it does perhaps add some framing to the discussion.

savanova's picture
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savanova Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 5:30pm

Back when I worked in night clubs the women's dunnies were always the worst to clean at the end of the night. Chicks win the filthy trophy.

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Roadkill Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:34pm

Fuck but that was outa left field…jeeezes the paths taken on SN.

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Roadkill Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:35pm

I am talking about savanova’s post.

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soggydog Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 8:15pm

Paging Peter Drouyn/Westerly Windina

bbbird's picture
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bbbird Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:14pm

Equality and insomnia are a state of mind...

bbbird's picture
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bbbird Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:25pm

Would've love to see Jodie Cooper take the drop at Pipe masters vs flick fanning.

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san Guine Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:49am

Sing it...

philosurphizingkerching's picture
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philosurphizing... Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:43am

And to quote a classic line from Doug Mulray after playing this song on MMM.......''Eveready will be happy''

oxrox's picture
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oxrox Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:00am

Annette.. I don`t suffer from blinding ignorance. All I`m stating is what has happened in the time I`ve been surfing which is a similar time to you. I also said there is dickheads everywhere who will treat people, male and female inappropriately. I have no doubt you and other female surfers have been treated badly by some males. Males get treated badly by males in the water. I haven`t seen aggression or abuse to a female surfer in the 50 years I have surfed personally. If there was an incident in the water when myself and mates were there I can assure you that guy would have been pulled into line. Not on.

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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:27am

oxrox the issue is not really about direct abuse, it is about unequal opportunity. This shows ups, as I said earlier, in the way brands use images of women longboarding rather than images that show their real level of performance. It also shows up in the water, not often as abuse, though as Annette's comment states, that does happen. More often it comes as denial of opportunity. Most surfers are pretty restrained around grommets, even the very capable ones, and leave waves for them they might otherwise pursue. In my observation that does not happen as often for women surfers, who have similar physical capacities. In crowds, were the ratio often runs at 10/1, that effect is particularly noticeable. And when women do organise and hold a women's only event they encounter the campbells of this world who are prepared to disrespect a women's event in a way that they would lack the courage to do to a similar men's event.

Annette's picture
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Annette Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 11:54am

Hi oxrox, Yes men get treated like shit in the water too. Just a question seeing we are of the same vintage, do you think you would have persisted as a surfer if you were a girl/woman... ie would you have kept paddling out when 99/100 times you were the only woman in the water? Take care and keep getting waves

Spuddups's picture
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Spuddups Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 2:49pm

That's a good point Annette. Something for us to all think about.

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Island Bay Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 4:36pm

Annette, it's not always about being easy and accessible. If surfing were, lots of idiots would be doing it, and you might not.

I didn't start Uni till 6 years after high school. With no science background I enrolled in an MSc in physics, and my fellow students were super brainy nerds straight out of high school. It was very intimidating, very hard, and nobody went out of their way to make it easy.

In fact, even the young Einsteins had it hard, with only 5% passing year 1 maths. You were made to work hard, to think hard, and to make damn sure that you really wanted it. Which made it worth it.

These days it's very different, and I can tell from the attitude of my young colleagues. They wither when things are difficult, expect everybody else to help them constantly, and they are slow.

Good things are worth putting a shitload of effort into, in fact even not that fun stuff gets interesting once you do make a concerted effort.

So yeah, screw making surfing easy and accessible and open to everyone who can afford a shiny new board.

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goofyfoot Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 6:36pm

“ So yeah, screw making surfing easy and accessible and open to everyone who can afford a shiny new board.”

Best thing I’ve read on this thread

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soggydog Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 8:20pm

Yeah but when you finally arrive after doing the hard yards, don’t you want to get paid similar to the others doing the hard graft.
Where the costs of doing that hard graft the same for both sexes or was it easier and cheaper for woman?

oxrox's picture
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oxrox Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 8:10pm

Hi Annette.... I don`t know. Respect to you for persevering though! I`m sure there were times you felt intimidated in the water, no doubt. Especially being the only female in the water the majority of the time. Personally I have only given females encouragement to surf but I`m sure there are some breaks especially decades ago where this wouldn`t be the case. As I have said previously, there are dickheads everywhere unfortunately, but thankfully in my experience they are the minority.

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Jof Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 10:46am

I don't really care if the men and women get paid the same. Arguements on both sides. Unfortunately, and only my personal choice, i don't like watching the womens surfing. It is not impressive on the screen. Also over the last few years it has been rammed down the viewers throats to the point of repulsion. I don't watch surfing anymore. I used to try and watch the mens but especially around the finals you miss half the mens trying to dodge the womens and it just got too frustrating. Which means i no longer bet on the surfing, which is probably a good thing for me. Good luck with it all i hope it turns out good. If it lasts to the next generation of womens surfing could be a goer.

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theblacksheep Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 2:00pm

I'm too scared to comment but I note the boardriders club my wife belongs to has no prize money and generally women make up enough numbers for one final, occasionally a semi - vs the men with maybe 5 rounds to get to the final plus multiple divisions. A 20 to1 ratio?
If it was paid, some days women would get paid just to paddle out. I doubt prize money therefore encourage more women surfers but the overall club culture might.
On that note I still see it is a "boys club" full of small town politics and the inequality creeps in in different ways...from (lack of) support for the woman in interclub comps, lack of general encouragement, less coaching camps etc etc.
I would personally hate to be running a club trying to balance the politcally correct with all the egos and pro coach dad opinions - all for no pay and pure volunteer work from personal spare time.
I'm too selfish for that. I just want to surf and throw opinion stones from the sidelines.... plus competing would destroy my illusion I can surf ok

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SurferSam Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:44pm

To be fair I’d much rather the smooth lines of Steff than most of the men

Or the passion Sally shows every surf

Or Carisa’s flawless carves

Of course female surfers deserve the same pay. I thought the world was changing and most people thought the same but looking at these comments maybe not.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 8:17pm

The world changes, but in here, the dinosaurs are making their last stand.

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doozel Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:59pm

I have a lot sympathy for female surfers, it isn't easy getting waves in crowded cities for anyone. I think it is especially tough if you are up against stronger and more aggressive "opponents" for those waves. There is really no other environment or sport where if you are big, small, male, female, beginner or world champ you have an "even" chance at participating (i.e. getting a wave).

As anyone who surfers regularly knows there are people getting lots of waves and some people getting very few. It is just a fact that if you are bigger and strong (and know what you are doing) you can take advantage of people who aren't. Spend a couple of hours at North Narrabeen on decent swell and you see all the yelling and screaming faux macho crap that on land disappeared 20 years ago.

The bottom line is it is tough get waves and I applaud women for getting out in a bunch of 50 blokes and having a go.

The whole prize money things seems a little strange to me, as highlighted very few people actually surf comps. The comp in question actually cost $100 to enter, I assume but could be wrong that there were many more male entries than female ones. So rather than sponsors money going to the men's (and not the women's) it may have been some of the entry fees from men's going to cover the women's prize money. If anyone has been involved in community sport you realise that most of the revenue is actually coming from the competitors (or their parents), there isn't just a bucket of cash that can be shared out evenly or even on a I surfed in the same conditions basis.

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wally Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 10:06pm

Sally Fitzgibbons winning in solid Cloudbreak with a busted eardrum is the gutsiest effort I have seen on the WSL tour.

Maybe we can stop justifying lower pay for female surfers by pretending we are all finance-obsessed media moguls with access to all the financial metrics.

Instead, possibly we could pretend we are just surfers who love the ocean and the flow of water and want all our surf brothers and surf sisters to be treated inclusively and evenly and would be embarrassed to see our sisters put on half-rations because of their gender.

It would be nice if we tried to be the best people we can be.

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seeds Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:50pm

Blindboy will probably get confused by this humour

Roadkill's picture
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Roadkill Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 6:58pm

Never gets old.

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 3:00pm

Reminds me of the pissing contest that is just about every thread

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 4:41pm

This one is actually funny

Blowin's picture
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Blowin Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 4:54pm

That’s the least funny thing in the history of unfunny things. One positive is that it reminds me of that line from when Craig Maclachlan tried to be a stand up comic on the Footy show.

Craig Maclachlan : What’s worse than shit?

Heckler: You are!

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:01pm

...but you didn't even watch it!

old-dog's picture
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old-dog Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 6:56pm

The gutsiest thing I've ever seen is that chick with one wing surfing solid pipe, I'd be paddling in circles. I might be a chauvinistic dinosaur but I can see the writing on the wall, in the not so distant future a tall well proportioned young lass will emerge from the cesspool and take the world by storm with a full rail and air game as good as any bloke on tour and be the new Kelly slater of the sport. It wont matter if she has a head like a robbers dog as her surfing will do all the talking and make her a mega star loved by all and sponsors will kill to get her onboard.
I also predict that in the distant future the way things are going men will wear muzzles and be led around on leashes by their female masters. Sorry one too many beers. Cheers.

Annette's picture
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Annette Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 10:16am

Hi old-dog, Yes in terms of sheer grit I think Bethany Hamilton takes it all. Footage of her surfing serious Cloudbreak is something to be in awe of. And to consider that she surfs with one arm because as a thirteen-year old her arm was bitten clean off by a tiger shark while surfing... and she got back in the water. Respect!

Spuddups's picture
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Spuddups Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 12:37pm

She's the gutsiest surfer ever I reckon. An inspiration to us all.

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velocityjohnno Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 7:16pm

"Yes and no. Women in sport is a relatively new thing in that it was not socially acceptable until more recent times for women to appear in sports that were traditionally male eg including surfing.

Competition surfing should be seen as separate to sponsorship income. Basically every surfer whether male or female will have differing levels of marketability, therefore they will have different levels of contract agreements and different monetary reward based off how they can be packaged and sold.

Men and women are built differently and should not be expected to compete against each other - the physical capabilities are different; unless it's an open competition.

Competition money should be equal whether male or female if the pool of competing athletes is the same size. If you only have 10 pro women competing yet you've got 40 men competing, then no, the money shouldn't be the same. The only reason I say that is the entrance fees will be the same. The reward should be based off 'to the best of your ability' and if women are competing this way just as men are competing this way then the best should be rewarded equally. Competition money should be based off the best on the day while sponsorship money will vary based on marketability.

There's historical bias for sponsors to sponsor more men than women for they know what has sold, what has worked and there's generally a longer history of men in surfing and of boys being encouraged to get into surfing. (VJ note: I reckon it's flipped now)

Unfortunately women have a shelf life from companies' perspective as companies expect women to have children mid 20s to early 30s - companies decide that they will be leaving the sport at this time. Companies see women as less marketable as they get to that 30 age range as they are not the sexy young hot thing any more, and that's sexist but it's the reality; while men can hold sponsorship and not have a shelf life until their 40s or until their body gives way. The companies might see them as a 20 year contract, while women 5 to 10 year.

The events are run by sponsorship so those sponsors of a competition should promote both genders equally."

** that is the view of someone close to me, she's a former competitive swimmer and a pretty damn good snowboarder. In fact, in everything Phys Ed and biomechanics she has a far better brain for it than I do. She taught me to shoot and ride motorbikes, too btw

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truebluebasher Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 2:09am

Since the Dawn of Time...women have ruled the waves & always will.
Women with Girls love the Ocean then Boys then Men are least interested in Surfing of all.
Sure! Won't stop us menfolk pretending otherwise! That's in our nature, please forgive us!

Women have forever foraged in the wave zone on beaches & Headlands & dived Reefs & Bommies.
Also hit the surf at night in canoes where men were too frightened.

Men did that whole 9-5 Water Taxi gig with eskies & very rarely engaged whole wave zones as women.
Yes! Ok Men / Boys also swam / dived & Bodybashed but boys Surfed more often with their Mums.
tbb will guess that most of the crew were introduced to the Ocean by their mums!
Nearly all early pioneer beach photos depict women with kidz...often the men were suited as squares!

Fast Forward to today and Women still massively outnumber Men in the Surf.
60% of Beach & Surf lovers are female (Avg age is 48)
Would be a lot more but men banned them for a real long time from beach activities. Why!
Because Women are better surfers!
Old Tassie Lighthouse keeper tells of Aboriginal Woman Body Bashin' Huge swells to slip a slab exit!
tbb sees Goldie photos of elderly ladies standing casual surrounded in Heavy impact zones...Luv it!
1930 Sunny Chix cleaned up the Men to take Qld Clubbie Team Title ( M vs W) Women often won.
Check out female Ocean Swimmers in heavy seas with sharks...whatever...try stoppin' them.
Think about how few men could manhandle Heavy Slabs without the Toy set...A few dozen...if that.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/other-sports/2016/12/28/secret-history-...

July 1980 ( Bronze Women ) Could serve as Active members.
tbb was a Burleigh Barracuda Junior Nipper Champ...(Club are Marching Champs)
1980 Old School Burleigh Nipperettes marching into a new era.(re: Ray Sharpe #1 Beach Photos)
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-149738116/view
1981 These Nipperettes were rebranded Nippers "One of Us!" (Wide sweeping Changes)
1991 In ten short years Women numbered 40% SLSA members.
2019-2021 Women now number 45% > 50% members & soon if not now - majority!
Women represent as Officials > Judges > Teachers > Coaches > All level = Comp access
Sure! Ok! Scomo is Vice SLSA Patron...so little women can't pin medals & run Meat Tray Raffles.

In 40 short years, Women now number 45% in Patrols & soon will dominate rescue Patrols.
We know this because more than 50% Nippers are girls...
So any argument there... is well oldschool...be like daggy dad shit!

tbb said he'd vouch for Chix being better surfers...& will deliver on that...
When bodybashin'...tbb swears more nipperettes would take steeper larger waves than lads...
Also they make heaps better basherz in junior ranks...boyz are less attuned to Wave Zone.
tbb would back Grom Chix to knock off Grom Lads to Man Handle Big surf without the gear.
Chix have continuous Body Surf lineage in their blood...2nd nature to swim out on a big day!
Yep! Seen Girl Nippers step up alone or packs in the Zone...not an issue..seldom see lads match them.
They also...appreciate good bodybashin' within the crew...boys are less natural surfers.

Pro Boardriding chix know deep down they also have 10,000's years of craft surfing lineage.
Men always made the Surf craft to suit men & board design is so stiff & safe...OMG ...go to sleep!
Reckon if chix wished to put their minds into surf craft ...bloke's boards might just come alive!

tbb thinks he's seen most things in the surf but still get bowled over by Chix bashin'
Just be like walkin' along the beach & check some mid age Wahine nail a clean face bomb to shore...
Tell the lady how excellent that was & a shrug of the shoulders as if Wot...That! OMG! Never Assume!
Can vouch for seeing all age Chix bodybash like sea serpents when least expected...

Most Women Surfers care least for money but will kill to maintain Ocean access.
Sure! Many Nippers are competitive...but money is not the goal...as said, Chix dig the Majesty of Surf!
Get used to it...most blokes will soon be rescued by mostly Chix with smarter Wave Zone sense.
Could be that they change the face of surf rescues along the way!

Chasing Pro Boardriding money is costing Chix big time...Olympic boardriding is cheapest ticket!
WSL is even cheaper & worth Zero bucks to Chix in Traditional Chix surfing Heartlands..
Here's the truth of WSL equal Pay Deal..
Qld Goldie Roxy Pro was instrumental in setting up Equal Pay..,
Hands up who thinks Goldie Women's Pro surfing is better from it...

Guess wot! It's worth shit...nothing...possibly for ever as we know it! Huh!
Qld Gold Coast has never held an Equal Pay Pro Chix Event & WSL left Goldie High'n'Dry! (True!)
2017 was last Snapper Final + 2018 Kirra Final (All pre equal pay) > 2019 in NSW & now none!
Qld / Gold Coast has never & will likely never host an equal pay WSL CT Comp...
Happy for crew to spread the Goldie Stoke if they know better?

Worst possible outcome for Qld Women but also impacted on Qld Men Boardriders.
Qld Govt have the money! Just signed 10 years Qld Surf lifesaving / Aussies to 2032 Olympics.
Ask Qld Govt about WSL or Surf boardriding in 2032 Olympics? Not on the Event List or Radar!
Be careful what you wish for...money changes everything, but seldom for the better..
Doubt if a Loving Lotto winning family has ever survived long enough to share the spoils...

Can relate to beefcakes muscling up in the lineup.
Bodybasherz are just glorified page boyz that iron out kinks in leggie trains for Bikini Bottom Wahines
tbb has been hunted down & directed from the Surf by women, Girls including backpackerz.
So basherz can't buy into it, as we're well beneath any equality but can feel the ocean as an advantage.
Can go deeper into the lineup but without a shield, ya gotta back yerself...Go for it! (#1 rule as ever!)

Also one of zenagain's groupies...basherz 'll never pass up an equal opportunity Challenge!
Bodybasherz can step up to surf equal footing...(Powerball barefoot skiing or Rip Tide tap dancin')

Ever proud to involve in oldest purest ocean sport that salutes such majesty.
Couldn't possibly be anymore perfect, just add nothing to leave it more perfect on return > Surfjustsurf

Luv the article, Luv the comments, Luv Swellnet & Luv me mum for Beach baptism!
Most of all, would dearly Luv to surf again one day...with a Wahine...Man! Like who wouldn't!

Wigs's picture
Wigs's picture
Wigs Sunday, 31 Oct 2021 at 8:17am

Brett68 has nailed it. My thoughts exactly.
One tour for men and women. See how many make it.
Women play off the mens in golf. 5 sets in tennis.
Equal pay for equal play.

nickca's picture
nickca's picture
nickca Tuesday, 9 Nov 2021 at 9:52pm

I once took a a claim to fair work Australia and said to the deputy Commissioner that I felt the circumstances were unfair, his reply was that would take lawyers in the high court 3 months to argue the point of fairness and equity and was I prepared for that? Followed up with the. Comment something to the effect , I hope you’ve deep pockets to pursue this! The spirit of fairness and equity seem straight forward and simple but the realities maybe less clear. Who gets paid the most in the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith? How many supermodels can you name? Any males? As other posters have suggested sometimes market penetration holds the key. Do promoters pay Taylor Swift and Beyoncé more than Kendrick Lamar and Jay Ze ? Truth I don’t know, which of the Kardashians gets the most dosh? I tipping it’s not an equal distribution. Sometimes it’s easy to resolve , nurses teachers , ambos ,firies , cleaners , hospitality but it seems to become less clear when it relies on marketing and returns. Who is the best paid jockey in Victoria? And rightly so … in my opinion. Regards Nick Callan

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher Sunday, 14 Nov 2021 at 11:46pm

This Qld Article came out in same week as this feature.
21 Oct 2021 swellnet Phil Jarratt wrote a perfect Surf Chix piece saluting Local Sunny Queen Kirra.
Not for Profit Oz Surf Chick earns #1 respect ... swellnet Hodad has answered our call.
https://noosatoday.com.au/news/21-10-2021/kirra-leads-surf-reserve/

Kirra Molnar 28 is the 1st female president of a WSR...(Elected unopposed)
Competitive junior Short boarder & Longboard Champ
Surf Qld Coach / Surf school Coach / Aussies / State / Noosa SLSC Surf Coach / Pro Fitness Coach.
Surf Travel / Pro Sports Management / Personal Trainer

Kirra has set Unity goals for WSR Line-ups.
Preserve WSR surroundings + Complete De Fib stations thru WSR > SLSC + Surfer's Code Info.

swellnet crew says Hi to Phil & thanx for sharing yet another top shelf Sunny Surf yarn...(Respect!)
Also a big shout out to "Noosa Today" for keeping Phil's Surf News frontline for Qldurrz...luv it!

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billythekid's picture
billythekid Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 5:42am

This whole topic makes me want to puke. The market determines the pay its pretty simple. Just like the market determines my dishwasher repair guy's charge of $175 plus $35 per 15 minutes + parts to come out and fix my dishwasher, while a teacher/ambo/etc. with more training and doing a job that's at least as beneficial to society gets about $50 ph. And that guy's booked out 4 weeks in advance. As for aflw dont get me started - when your average aflw player is as good as most U16 boys and they attract a pretty small crowd even with free tix, that they get paid at all is a pretty good deal.

belly's picture
belly's picture
belly Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 8:48am

So all dishwasher repairers are guy's?
Guess what? - they probably predominantly are, getting the rates you mentioned, and those other professions you mentioned probably have a more even if not female bias gender distribution, probably getting the rates you mentioned. That's why at an aggregate level there is pay disparity. But don't get me started, I might want to puke ha ha

simsurf's picture
simsurf's picture
simsurf Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 3:24pm

Woman choose not to become dishwasher repairers. No one in 2021 is stopping them becoming one.

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 1:48pm

Nah the AFLW players are gutsy and their skillset is developing rapidly. It's your blinkers that won't allow you to see that. Also, keep in mind the men have had the opportunity to practice their skillset for 100 plus years with a monopoly on AFL/VFL footy, as opposed to 'letting' the girls play for only the last 5 or so years. It shouldn't really matter to you how much they get paid anyway....unless you're dating one? Hence her shout!!

ringmaster's picture
ringmaster's picture
ringmaster Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 9:37pm

It all gets down to bums on seats and eyeballs on TVs.

If the general population aren't interested in watching you play your sport you don't deserve the same coin as the sportspeople who command attention and interest. Male or female.

And yes......AFLW is NOT elite sport. It's very average local footy standard at best.

Women's cricket on the other hand has really come on and surprise surprise some of them are making good money and signing lucrative sponno deals.

Just take the perceived 'sexism' out of it and be objective FFS.

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 12:13am

Ringmaster, i hear what you're saying, but just to clarify, i watched a fair few AFLW games over the last season, and it was pretty damn impressive. I can only offer that as an observational starting point as a counter.
And fundamentally, it shouldn't matter to you or me how much they get paid. If it does, why?

evosurfer's picture
evosurfer's picture
evosurfer Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 3:11pm

Female football players shouldnt be paid at all. Woeful. They are
there strictly for shit and giggles.

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 3:26pm

Ha! Classy as always Evosurfer.

billythekid's picture
billythekid's picture
billythekid Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 9:14pm

yeah belly, the dishwasher repair person in my area is a guy. I like the way you turn that into, "so all dishwasher repairers are guys". With logic like that you could be an anti vaxxer

belly's picture
belly's picture
belly Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 6:51am

I apologise Billy, you wrote 'my dishwasher guy' I took that you wrote 'the dishwasher guy' and that you were making a gender bias assumption, a pet peeve.
The rest of my points on pay disparity stand.
And the market is deciding.
Double vaxxed, Cheers.

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 5:08am

Just read this comment on an article on beachgrit, makes sense to me…

“ I don’t get why pay has to be the same when they’re not doing the same. Male and female lawyers? They do the same job for all people, pay ‘em the same. Male and female doctors? They do the same for all people, pay ‘em the same.

Fuck, if you’re working commission pay in sales and the woman is slaying it making 5x more sales than her male colleagues, fucken pay her 5x more than the blokes. How can the blokes argue they deserve the same when they’re making 5x less sales?

But equal pay just coz one is male and the other’s female when what they’re dishing up is poles apart in terms of quality? I’m not too sure how they actually justify it from a logical viewpoint?”

oxrox's picture
oxrox's picture
oxrox Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 9:34am

What goofyfoot said x 2

belly's picture
belly's picture
belly Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 9:55am

I interviewed someone the other day, his favourite answer, "...it depends...". Classic below the line justify. Couldn't actually answer the question that's why.
Anyway, start with a binary question, should men and women be paid the same? Yes or no?
How that is resolved in the real world is challenging no doubt, but I get the sense many comments in this thread question this basic tenant, that is they are saying 'women should not be paid equal and here's why', rather than 'women should be paid equal and here's how we'll make it happen'.
Blah blah whatev's blogging eh

jacksprat's picture
jacksprat's picture
jacksprat Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 1:11pm

Do they generate the same revenue as men for their employers? Do they garner the same exposure in the media as men? Being professional athletes this is the only real issue. If the answer is yes, then they do deserve equal recompense. If the answer is no, then they do not.

ringmaster's picture
ringmaster's picture
ringmaster Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 7:46pm

Bang on!

Why is that concept so hard to understand for some people?

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 8:17pm

A question. Out of the two, who do you think sells more product for their company based on their image. Steph Gilmore for Roxy, with bikinis, boardies, wetsuits and clothing...or Italo Ferreira for Billabong selling boardies, tshirts and wetties?

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 9:06pm

Italo I reckon.

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 9:49pm

By how much u reckon Zen. Would it be close? And btw im going somewhere with this line of thinking here, just am interested in responses

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond's picture
bluediamond Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021 at 9:55pm

And since we're going down this road, consider...growth. Think of all the new aflw leagues popping up around the nation. The untapped potential from a battalion of females seeing a new path...and just to be ckear, this isn't my argument just a premise to debate the above comments.
https://www.womens.afl/news/71147