Kelly Slater and the Angriest Summer

Phil Jarratt
Swellnet Dispatch

Last weekend Kelly Slater, the most famous surfer in the world, posted to his 2.6 million Instagram followers a horrific image of one of the 480 million animals that have perished in the worst bushfires in Australian history, along with the words:

“I’m not sure a picture could better sum up the fear and devastation more succinctly. I’m no expert but from the messages and reading I’ve done on the subject, mismanagement of forest underbrush back-burning in the winter months and overall water resources have helped create a perfect storm in the face of this drought.”

I don’t know the provenance of the heart-wrenching photo of a juvenile kangaroo trapped on a fence while trying to escape the fires, other than it was published last week in News Limited media, but I do know a little of Kelly, and that his intentions in spreading awareness of our country’s horror would have been noble. (In fact he posted links to fundraising pages.)

 

But unfortunately his scattergun midnight Google research, revealing that mismanagement of “back-burning” was the main culprit, put him squarely (if unwittingly) in the camp of the fossil fuel corporations and the climate change deniers. Like the GOAT said, “I’m no expert…” But perhaps he may have been better informed if he’d included in his reading Australian Nerilie Abram’s report, Australia’s Angry Summer: This Is What Climate Change Looks Like, published on New Year’s Eve in the online edition of Scientific American

Abram began: “Of course, unusually hot summers have happened in the past; so have bad bushfire seasons. But the link between the current extremes and anthropogenic climate change is scientifically undisputable.”

Spelling out the size of the dilemma for her American readership, she continued: “The fires raging across the southern half of the Australian continent this year have so far burned through more than five million hectares. To put that in context, the catastrophic 2018 fire season in California saw nearly 740,000 hectares burned.”

While this should not be a time for political point-scoring, I thought Abram’s conclusion was the most succinct summary of this horrific situation that I have read thus far: “The angry summer playing out in Australia right now was predictable. The scientific evidence is well known for how anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions are causing long-term climate change and altering climate variability in ways that increase our fire risk. The role of climate change in the unprecedented fires gripping Australia is also well understood by our emergency services. Sadly, though, this summer has occurred against a backdrop in which the Australian government has argued, on the world stage, to scale back our greenhouse-gas-emissions-reduction targets. Our leaders are literally fiddling while the country burns.”

Meanwhile, as Australia’s East Coast burned last weekend, Kelly’s Insta post played out to middling reviews.

'Be Noble' responded: “Please don’t spread this misinformation. There’s only one reason this is the worst fire season ever - warming, drying climate.”

'Lewis Bassett' was even more brutal: “Didn’t you read about climate change bro, or d’you feel too guilty about constantly flying around the world to go there?”

Ouch.

But the one comment that brought tears to my eyes was from Mark Rabbidge, a surfer/shaper who has toiled valiantly and with great integrity in the trenches of the surfboard industry for as long as I can remember. Mark brought it all down to what is real at ground zero with these words from the front, clearly pumped into his phone with angry, ash-covered fingers: “I’ve been stuck at my surfboard shop at Bendalong for 6 days fighting this fire it’s come at us from all points of the compass yesterday was real bad felt like the end of the world we saved everything I’m over it”

Like all of former world champion Pam Burridge’s friends and followers, I’d been biting my nails as Pam posted updates daily over the New Year period on her frantic efforts to first get supplies to husband Mark at Bendalong, then just to contact him to know he was alive, as fires raged around the Conjola area, claiming nearly 100 homes. Thankfully it was a happy ending for the Rabbidge/Burridge family. For so many others it was not.

For me, safe in Noosa (although this long bushfire season that hasn’t always been the case) and watching the red flame icons on the TV maps, concerned about friends and family still in that part of the world, every image of an Armageddon sky brought back vivid memories of so many happy times in places now on fire. So many weekends surfing Green Island, just down the hill from where Mark Rabs and friends were holding back the flames; surfing alone at sunset near Mallacoota, not far from where 4,000 frightened people huddled on the beach waiting for rescue. 

It’s almost impossible to reconcile those memories with the images on the TV news, but we must, because sadly we are going to see a lot more of them.

//PHIL JARRATT

There are a range of organisations that require donations, from state fire services to social charities to animal welfare. Please follow this link for organisations - all legit - that are collecting.

Comments

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 6:41pm

stop talking out your arse Kelly

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:47pm

He's got some stuff mixed up but he's not totally speaking out his arse. My family has owned farmland on the Upper Macleay River for three generations now, since the early 90's we have fought a losing battle with Parks and Wildlife Services, Wilderness Societies and the Green Party who have insisted on closing National Parks and the fire trails inside them. They have also insisted that allowing farmers to have cattle in the parks destroys the environment.

So here's a fact - because fire trails have been closed, the RFS have been unable to do the amount of prescribed burning as they used to in the past. Because fire trails have closed the RFS can't get into areas they once did and do back burning to control fires in this season. Cattle grazing in the undergrowth of a National Park actually control the noxious weeds, bark and leaves that fall, grow, die and create the excess fuel that is now burning so hot that parts of our bush will never recover, they don't destroy the trees, logs and hollows that our native animals live in.

My uncle lost his house in the fires on the Upper Macleay, he offered to bulldoze a fire break for National Parks that would stop the fire, they refused him because if the environmental damage. The fire then burned straight through the little bit of work the National Parks could do in their expertise and went on to destroy my uncles house (in my family for over 70 years) and 100 head of cattle. This same fire deposited so much ash on to the surface of the waterholes in the Karai NP that there has been a mass fish kill, bass not carp - similar to what we saw in the Murray Darling earlier last year. This same fire destroyed 16 homes at Willawarrin and 100's of cattle - again, people weren't allowed to build a fire break instead, they had to watch their homes and livelihoods burn. Proper maintained fire trails and prescribed burning would prevent this - but for National Parks etc to admit this, well that would mean accepting responsibility. Yep, the earth is hotter and dryer but climate change is a contributing convenient blame for what has been a preventable tragedy in our country. Kelly might not know exactly what he's talking about but don't fool yourselves into thinking we're getting anything but biased information when it comes to these fires and their cause.

ojackojacko's picture
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ojackojacko commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:01pm

hi mate. i’m genuinely sorry to hear about your uncle’s home, the cattle, and all the other homes lost up there. you say:

“we have fought a losing battle with Parks and Wildlife Services, Wilderness Societies and the Green Party who have insisted on closing National Parks and the fire trails inside them. They have also insisted that allowing farmers to have cattle in the parks destroys the environment.”

the libs / nats have been in government in nsw since 2011, and federally since 2013. the greens have never been in power in nsw or federally. so if you want to blame political parties, how about starting with the libs and the nats who have been running the joint, and then maybe labor who have also had significant time in power?

i hope your uncle and everyone up there stays safe and can get back on their feet soon

benjis babe's picture
benjis babe's picture
benjis babe commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:18pm

well said

hamishbro's picture
hamishbro's picture
hamishbro commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:21pm

Hi there, the states not the federal government run both national parks and volunteer fire services. In NSW unfortunately the national parks services (NPWS) have had several redundancies over the years leading to rangers unable to properly manage the fire risk in their zones for responsibility. The cause of this problem is multifaceted. It’s not just climate change. It’s also a lack of human management of a threat that we knew was always there. For Millenia the aborigines cool
Burned extensively to shake the landscape to suit their ability to live off the land abundantly and safely. In recent years, our ability to properly manage the areas where bushfires mostly start - national parks and state forests - has been diminished. Don’t get caught up in arguing because people make a point out of mismanagement of fuel loads, they are somehow climate deniers. The fact is the climate is changing and we have to do our best to respond proactively to that circumstance. We can’t just call for cuts to carbon emissions and back slap each other.

Fuckyou's picture
Fuckyou's picture
Fuckyou commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 3:22pm

Fires of any kind produce heaps of carbon emissions hey?

Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:31am

Yep, I get that and thanks for the family well wishers. Unfortunately and fortunately in politics the people in power don't just get total say, even though the greens have never held power they have had influence, it's all about bargaining in the corridors of power. Totally agree that the Libs/Lab have been the ones who signed off on decisions but it's others who have lobbied.

I do what to make the point that I'm not actually about pointing at any political party or group here for fault, I'm not denying or supporting climate change. My point is that climate change is getting all the "credit" for the current fire tragedy, when there is so many more contributing factors - regardless of how they came about. People need to understand the whole picture and act on it - not just the climate change bogey.

t-diddy's picture
t-diddy's picture
t-diddy commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:54pm

I say this to exhaustion but we have to address the 'climate change bogey' is there is ANY chance it is correct because if we don't address it soon we are fukt. I we do address it and it isn't an issue then we've got sustainable energy sources and better land mgmt - a win either way!

Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 2:08pm

Absolutely there is every chance it's correct, there's plenty of evidence pointing to a warmer climate (just read this thread) and even if it's not a man made issue I agree, we should be responsible custodians of the land. I usually avoid these conversations but I had to weigh purely because Kelly Slater may not have the full picture but he wasn't completely wrong. It would be wrong to blame these fires completely on climate change - I call it the "Climate Change Bogey" not to deny it but to highlight that practically every natural event these days is because of climate change.

Fact is if we holistically manage our bush land these events can at least be less tragic - we live in Australia we'll never entirely prevent them. As a kid I lived on the coast but had family farms on the Upper Macleay River - one of our pass times was to ride our motor bikes along the fire trails along the ridge tops. These trails are gone now, overgrown and not maintained because of the environmental impact. In times of bush fire the RFS and local farmers (I'm going back pre the age of litigation for everything mind) would back burn from the top of the ridge back down toward the oncoming fire, and so slow it's advance. They prescribe burned in the winter - not everything but some, cattle were allowed in some areas some of the year, not all year and not everywhere. It all helped - didn't stop every event but it helped minimise the impact when things got out of hand.

regano's picture
regano's picture
regano commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 2:56pm

Sorry to hear about your uncle's house and cattle and likewise the loss of property at Willawarrin. Unfortunately there is a conflict between the objectives of national parks (preservation of native flora and fauna)and neighbouring human land use, such as cattle production. Grazing cattle in national parks has been frequently proposed not only as a control mechanism for undergrowth but also to increase the productivity of otherwise 'unproductive' land. Similar to the demands (usually by National Party politicians) to allow selective logging in National parks, where 'good timber is left to rot on the ground'. Hopefully it will never happen as cattle do not discriminate between noxious weeds and native plants and in fact spread weeds like Tropical Soda apple (a threat in your part of the world) through their digestive systems. Overtime cattle will also graze out preferred native plant species. Not to mention the harm they do to fragile ecosystems and water ways. As for the use of back burning to reduce the fuel load in national parks. Its just not physically possible to implement a program of back burning to minimise the risks posed by fuel loads in all our state forests and national parks. Its a massive and delicate job that can only be attempted when conditions are right to ensure the safety of all. As you know climate change is reducing the window of opportunity to conduct back burning in our cooler months. But again unless the frequency of back burning is managed there's risk of losing plant species which take a number of years to mature, flower and set seeds. Like some species of banksia for example. It's another example of conflicting land use and the challenges faced by public authorities tasked with managing national parks to the benefit of the broader community whilst ensuring the protection of our unique flora and fauna. Its not easy.

regano

mignos's picture
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mignos commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 4:27pm

Seems to be some confusion around the facts on prescribed burning. The NSW RFS Commissioner said this morning they'd met all their targets for prescribed burning last year.

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:49pm

Kelly is Right
Fire is the Symptom,
Massive Fuel Load is the cause.
(caused by weak Liberal and Labor scared of Greenies)

panaitan's picture
panaitan's picture
panaitan commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:07am

Where is your evidence that green policies have reduced prescribed burning? Look at the greens website, they support appropriate prescribed burning. They have no influence over state government bush management.

Red Kev's picture
Red Kev's picture
Red Kev commented Sunday, 12 Jan 2020 at 8:29pm

+1. And more to the point, the Greens are the ONLY party with prescribe burning plan. LNP don't have a plan, any plan -- that's the fucking problem.

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:58am

Not sure who the 'Greenies' are sounds like something from outer space. Anybody who knows anything about land management haven't got a problem of clearing fast growing, and relatively short lived shrubs around the long living trees. It is how and when it is done and educating people fire can be good if harnessed. Fire is a far better means of clearing than mowing things down for all sorts of reasons. White fellas have a dismal record of land management or stewardship as the yanks call it, by whoever is in power.

timneumann's picture
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timneumann commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:41pm
campbell's picture
campbell's picture
campbell commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 6:54pm

Go fuck yourself kelly Slater, why not throw some of your millions towards wildlife recovery or bushfire survivor emergency accomadation rather than throwing you misinformed off kilter opinions around on the social media , if anyone can afford to help a bit it's you - fuckwit

...

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:01am

Ay, with a grand Scottish name like Campbell no wonder you are fiery. Bit harsh I am sure he means well, just needs to do a bit more research and wee bit less highlander.

Mango Carafino's picture
Mango Carafino's picture
Mango Carafino commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 7:49pm

Now this is the kind of comment I can appreciate. Direct, to the point, no political correctness intended and written like a true leader of men. KS is a selfish prick, always has been and always will be. Only speaks to people when he wants to get info to advance his agenda or just advance his agenda. All KS has done is traumatized all his twitter/instagram followers with that unfortunate photo. We all know half a billion creates have been wiped out. We do not need a photo to reinforce the horrible. . If KS ever came out of the closet with the rainbow generation movement flag, I think Kai Lenny and him would make the perfect couple.

channel-bottom's picture
channel-bottom's picture
channel-bottom commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 6:57pm

“Water resources”

Perhaps the wave pool might be reconsidered.

And anyone makes comments like “I’m no expert but from the reading I’ve done” sounds like an anti-vaxxer.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 7:28pm

"Prof David Bowman, the director of the fire centre research hub at the University of Tasmania, said: “It’s ridiculous. To frame this as an issue of hazard reduction in national parks is just lazy political rhetoric.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/05/explainer-how-eff...

“These are very tired and very old conspiracy theories that get a run after most major fires,” says Prof Ross Bradstock, the director of the centre for environmental risk management of bushfires at the University of Wollongong, who has been researching bushfires for 40 years.

“They’ve been extensively dealt with in many inquiries.”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/12/is-there-really-a...

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:09am

Andy HRB (I just made an acronym up) is just one of many issues, but still valid one in the total scheme of things. Most politicians can't see beyond 3 - 6 months and Craig Kelly can't see at all, so to expect them to understand and plan for and execute a well researched and funded approach to bushfire prevention, is living in fantasy land. When does such a thing happen anywhere for anything?

Nakiboi's picture
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Nakiboi commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 7:37pm

I didn't know believing in climate change made you morally superior, so all I have to do is say I believe and I'm immune from criticism and my actions get a pass.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 7:38pm

What he's referring to is hazard reduction burning (also called prescribed burning or controlled burning), not back-burning.

The fact he calls it that makes me wonder if he's done any reading at all because they are two different things.

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:19am

Same thing, just burning small/medium woody shrubs and dry ground material such as leaves, twigs, etc.. and leaving the trees, which promotes a grass understory. If you read about Sydney when the white fellas arrived they encountered what looked like manicured paddocks of native grasslands. Black fellas had been busy in the off season for the odd millennium.

bipola's picture
bipola's picture
bipola commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 7:50pm

you gotta feel sorry for the people who lost their homes, the fires started in late august and their seems no indication when they will be put out, i am praying for rain,,
if the prime minister had of acted in September instead of going on holidays, this disaster may have been stopped in its tracks.
now everyone's fatigued. we needed more water bombers last year when there was a chance of putting out the fire, now i am worried it could go on for many more months till its out.
no leader ship at the top, what a joke.

maxe's picture
maxe's picture
maxe commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 7:51pm

Maybe Kelly can make a large donation out of the profits from his ridiculously expensive clothing line.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 7:55pm

fucking hell , surely the GOAT isn't dabbling in climate denial?

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:20am

No but the other one is by the name of Craig!

bongsalot's picture
bongsalot's picture
bongsalot commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:01pm

Australia is a land of droughts and flooding rains..to draw the climate change bow is a long load of 'doomer' bullshit.
While we are in the midst of a drought, it is not Australia's worst..but what makes it bad is the green policies of this millenia at least, even back to the 1990's when back burning was prevelant.
So some of these places have 30yrs of fuel that has never been managed.
I read a piece in the SMH which is not the best I know but in a historic backburning fuel reduction scheme on average there would be 2-3t/ha of fuel on the ground..Some of the places that have burnt have been estimated up to 15t/ha. couple that with a drought, a few arsehole arsonists and dry thunderys and it was a ticking time bomb!
Lots of the backburning was stopped to absorb carbon or to offset carbon.
So the very thing green policies were trying to reduce has very much turned out to be the monster of their own doing..but do you think climate doomers will understand and/or admit that?

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:11pm

Who to believe: the experts who've studied this topic for decades and have their scientific papers peer reviewed, or a guy called "bongsalot" on Swellnet?
Help me out folks.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Fergal Sharky's picture
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Fergal Sharky commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:21pm

We need a like button for comments like this. Thanks smiley.

deckstrus's picture
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deckstrus commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:03am

I'll second that :)

Hulk Junior's picture
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Hulk Junior commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:11am

This interview with Greg Mullins the former NSW Fire Commissioner with 40+ years fire fighting experience is extremely educational. He clearly dispells any of the bizzarre myths about Greens (who are not in power anywhere) having anything to do with anything. He has no agenda other than sharing his vast knowledge -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qvftV4ySvU&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1NS...

ybother

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:22am

That is funny have to be super intelligent and an avid bookworm with the name 'Bongsalot'. Wonder what his contribution to society is?

t-diddy's picture
t-diddy's picture
t-diddy commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:42pm

"Who to believe: the experts who've studied this topic for decades and have their scientific papers peer reviewed, or a guy called "bongsalot" on Swellnet? Help me out folks."
hahahahha - touche!

DanCB's picture
DanCB's picture
DanCB commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 2:38pm

Top post Vic Local!

Sir Bong, I would like you to give us ONE peer reviewed citation that states that increases in extreme weather events such as extreme temperatures and bushfires are NOT related to climate change. Despite what talk back radio might say, the climate argument is not 50/50. About 97% of scientists accept the evidence - and I would say that the other 3% are in the pockets of the fossil fuels industry.

Sir Bong, do you take medicine when you're sick? Why, it was developed by scientists and they know nothing. Sir Bong, do you read the swell forecasts here on Swellnet and get excited when it's going to be 4-6 ft and offshore? Why, they use science for that and it can't be trusted!

What about the hole in the ozone layer? People and governments accepted that scientists knew what they were talking about and now it's pretty much been fixed!

Climate change predicts many things - all of which can be found in the IPCC reports: an increase in extreme weather events and natural disasters SUCH AS BUSHFIRES, extreme temperatures and extreme storms, increase in overall global temperatures, melting sea ice and glaciers, ocean acidification, rising sea levels to name but a few - all of which have been happening over the past several decades (check the IPCC reports).

"But these changes are natural, because Dorothea Mackellar wrote about them in the early 1900's". No, Sir Bong, they are not - around the decade when she wrote that poem that you refer to, there were around 6 days that were in the top 1% of temperatures ever experienced in Australia - in the last decade we've had around 100 days in the top 1% of temperatures ever experienced in Australia - around 30 in one year at times. Yes, climate fluctuates depending on many things, but this is human induced. Temperature profiles of the atmosphere show it is warming from the surface up - not what one would expect from natural processes. In addition, ice core data shows that the type of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is changing - from carbon 12 (which is produced by natural processes such as respiration) to carbon 13 (which is found in fossil fuels).

I hope Kelly is completely uninformed of the implications in his post, and Sir Bong, I hope you take the opportunity to enlighten yourself and read some of the peer reviewed literature.

Why be so angry about what the evidence tells us? As stated in an earlier post, we have nothing to lose if we hedge our bets - even if you, in all your scientific wisdom, Sir Bong, choose to ignore the evidence.

DanCB

ashleygould's picture
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ashleygould commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:38pm

DanCB.. this is gold!

gray's picture
gray's picture
gray commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 11:49am

Haha, yeah, damn sure is a tricky one, huh?! ;-)

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:08pm

Wrong..

Read this. Bushfires, Hazard Reduction and Backburning

As I've posted elsewhere..

Soil Moisture is the main issue. There's little to no soil moisture available which would otherwise help stop some of these fires burning and spreading so easy. Flow on effect from drought, record heat.

This graph shows the places burning are experiencing their lowest 1% soil moisture on record.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:54am

100% correct

rich74's picture
rich74's picture
rich74 commented Thursday, 9 Jan 2020 at 3:01pm

i work on bushfire across oz including suppression and planned burning..while soil moisture is critical to flammability and potential rate of fire spread in forests its not the only issue here..Climate change, funding cuts to national parks and land managers,lack of prescribed burning and fire preparedness of oz communities are all combining here. every location in oz is different and requires a unique combination of solutions to achieve better bushfire management and will need increasing levels of funding as fire behaviour and severity increases with climate change. we can still improve this though. this webinar below from Neil Burrows nails all these issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9pktOlJ7Y&t=62s

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:08pm

As Stu pointed out, the fact that you don't know the difference between back burning and hazard reduction burns says it all.

jpm87's picture
jpm87's picture
jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:03pm
stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:09pm

Nice gaslighting mate.

But the Greens, the party that is, not outlying froot loops, have burn reductions written into their platforms at both state and federal level.

Then there are the other reasons why they cant influence those decisions, such as they dont have the power, all of which has been repeated ad nauseum.

And no, I'm not a Greens voter.

jpm87's picture
jpm87's picture
jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:28pm

You missed the point by a large mark. The previous person had used two links from clearly biased sources, as if they were credible. I merely pointed out the ABC quietly deleting their post regarding fire management. Nothing more nothing less.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:33pm

It probably wont matter what I write...but I do know that it is a bollocky piece of news linking that to Green policy.

Perhaps the ABC thought their readers might see it for what it was, ill-informed nutters getting in the way, and pulled in when they saw people to linking it to the more serious issue around Green (capital 'G') party policy.

Which is exactly what you did in your reply to Andy M below.

jpm87's picture
jpm87's picture
jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:43pm

It actually won't matter what you write, because you can't change the past. If, as you propose, the ABC were not supporting such actions, then they surely would have clearly articulated that, wouldn't they? Alas they didn't and so your argument falls apart.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:44pm

Please see post immediately below this.

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:39pm
jpm87's picture
jpm87's picture
jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:49pm

Mate that's actually the same fire that the "looneys" were blocking. The burn was reduced from 370 to 9 DUE TO THOSE PEOPLE. Again, there is no condescending language in that post. If anything it is a triumphant declaration of saving animals (that are likely now gone)

Going back and forth is a waste of both our times. My point has been made. Your point has been made.

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:54pm

I don't know anything about the burn reduction.

I'm more referencing the accusation of ABC bias that meant they were deleting posts/article of a certain type. If that's the case, then why would they run this post?

Although I don't know the reasons why the other post was deleted, it's not out of the bounds of possibility that it was taken down because of a matter unrelated to an apparent ideology.

Clivus Multrum's picture
Clivus Multrum's picture
Clivus Multrum commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:11pm

Correct, no bias

fad's picture
fad's picture
fad commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:57pm

Please read some solid information before laying the blame for deaths and destruction on the Greens.
First of all, the Greens policy supports controlled burns (https://greens.org.au/bushfires). Secondly, the Greens can’t really set policy because they haven’t managed to actually get into government. Quote Professor Ross Bradstock (Director, Centre for Environmental Risk Management of Bushfires, University of Wollongong): “These are very tired and very old conspiracy theories that get a run after most major fires…It’s simply conspiracy stuff. It’s an obvious attempt to deflect the conversation away from climate change.” You can read a fact check article here: https://www.theguardian.com/…/is-there-really-a-green-consp…

In reality, weather conditions are reducing the window where we can perform burns (again, driven by climate change). Additionally, we’re not able to perform controlled burns in all vegetation types either (eg wet forests, alpine regions) but these regions can burn now because they’re so dry.

Furthermore, controlled burns don’t actually lead to a significant reduction in fire intensity in the kind of weather we have at the moment. In these conditions, the importance of fuel load becomes negligible compared to weather. It is, however, still useful in moderate fire conditions.

ABC fact check article dealing with prescribed burns: https://www.abc.net.au/…/hazard-reduction-burns-bu…/11817336).

Another good article from David Bowman, Professor of Environmental Change Biology at the University of Tasmania: https://www.smh.com.au/…/reality-check-there-are-limits-to-…

Further reading: ‘The efficacy of fuel treatment in mitigating property loss during wildfires: Insights from analysis of the severity of the catastrophic fires in 2009 in Victoria, Australia.’ (Price and Bradstock, 2012).

rich74's picture
rich74's picture
rich74 commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 10:47am

I agree with your points about the Greens, but here is a few other points.
While windows for controlled burning are getting tighter, increasing funding and support for these smaller windows is the answer.
While controlled burning doesnt always stop big bushfires it does reduce their intensity-this is basic fire behaviour 101- and provides fire crews with critical opportunities to stop them. Even in catastrophic fire dangers, the weather changes quickly and still offers opportunities overnight or the next day to control fires when fire danger is greatly reduced.. this webinar sums up all the issues that some of the academics you referenced missed..by probably one of the most experienced fire managers in the country..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9pktOlJ7Y&t=823s

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:29am

The stuff that is burnt would have bugger all absorption of carbon. This whole "Greenie" tag is a furphy. Who are the 'Greenies' please tell me? Someone who wants to manage the bush which includes burning and believe in climate change? Climate change has without doubt acerbated the issue of extreme events so it is a very short bow to draw, however it isn't the only one. To make this a battle over climate change is silly as climate change will go on way past our time on this planet unless we get serious as will bushfires.

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:28pm

Scientist David Packham on what’s really causing the bushfires

Expert and scientist David Packham explains that it has nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with fuel-loads.

https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au/scientist-david-packham-on-whats-re...

Bushfire scientist David Packham warns of huge blaze threat, urges increase in fuel reduction burns

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/bushfire-scientist-david-pac...

Life after Black Saturday: 'Victoria's never been in a more dangerous situation'

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-08/life-after-black-saturday-david-p...

Note notice these links are not dodgy conspiracy theory blog links or opinions from a random nobody these are opinions from an expert who has studied in this field and studied it locally in Australia in the very areas fire's are now burning, he warned of this years ago.

PS. Im not going to get into a back and forth discussion here, but just don't paint Kelly as a climate denialist or whatever because his view doesn't fit in with yours or try to bring down others because their views don't fit in with yours, because some experts agree with him.

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Craig commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:10pm

See above Indo. And as posted elsewhere, we were warned a decade ago about things worsening..

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/ab711274-004c-46cb-a9f1-09dba68d98c3/files/20100630-climate-fire-biodiversity-pdf.pdf

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panaitan commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 10:57pm

In addition to the two genuine experts from the Unis of Tasmania and Wollongong quoted above in the Guardian, Former NSW Fire Commissioner and Chair of ANZEMC Greg Mullins was interviewed about this on ABC radio yesterday. He to rejects the talk of lack of prescribed burning as just a red herring. He quoted a number of areas in the current fire that had already been subject to burns in the last 6-12 months that he watched burn again. He is adamant that the completely unprecedented behaviour and scope of these fires is as a result of climate change. It is no coincidence that 2019 was just announced as the hottest year ever in Australia, and we have the worst fires ever.

BTW, NSW has exceeded its prescribed burns in national parks each year for the past 5 years. This year in NSW there were 400,000 hectares of prescribed burns undertaken.

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rich74 commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 11:15am

Its a pity such a complex issue as bushfire management is being argued on such simple, polarising issues. Each region(or vegetation type) in this diverse country of Australia has a unique bushfire risk and requires a tailor made set of solutions for each case, not political rhetoric and point scoring.

NSW National Parks has been absolutely smashed by funding cuts in recent years from LNP state govt, leading to significant loss of experienced people and capacity for fire management including planned burns and suppression work..I've seen figures that prescribed burning has been reduced in National Parks in recent years..If the windows for prescribed burning are getting shorter we just need more funding and resources to make sure it happens in the shorter windows of time in winter etc
Controlled burning in cooler weather does reduce the extent and severity of bushfires and allows fire crews opportunities to contain them when bushfires do occur where un-managed areas with high fuel loads does not offer this opportunity.
There is an important balance between fuel hazard reduction and maintaining biodiversity but at the moment most of the east coast and adjacent ranges of Australia has got it wrong and now faces ecological catastrophe from bushfires.
Climate change is contributing to unprecedented fire behaviour but we have the tools,technology and experience to mitigate this if we can rise above the politics and misinformation and get serious about coexisting with the increasing threat..Here is some wisdom and a Youtube webinar from one of Australia's most experienced fire managers on these issues..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9pktOlJ7Y&t=823s

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bluediamond commented Saturday, 11 Jan 2020 at 8:13pm

Beautifully said Rich. Makes alot of sense when you consider the sheer size of this country....some of this bushland, especially the far south coast/vicco border region is so vast and mostly inaccessable. There has to be different methods for different areas of oz. Considering the Nullabor, vast tracts of inland WA, Tasmania, Kangaroo Island, the Adelaide Hills, urban Perth areas, the North Coast of NSW, the Southern Highlands and the South Coast of NSW are all such vastly different climatic and geographical areas, it makes sense to approach them all with a measured plan. Also i wonder if this country is so uniquely different to other continents, in the fact that it's drier, surrounded by relatively warm oceans, has no major inland water systems or lakes, and also no major glacial features like Europe and Sth America, that our approach to climate factors and the things we are doing (guilty) that contribute to the acceleration of changing climatic factors needs to be completely re thinked, as opposed to the targets and goals set by other countries and continents. Cheers for your insight.

rich74's picture
rich74's picture
rich74 commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 11:15am

Its a pity such a complex issue as bushfire management is being argued on such simple, polarising issues. Each region(or vegetation type) in this diverse country of Australia has a unique bushfire risk and requires a tailor made set of solutions for each case, not political rhetoric and point scoring.

NSW National Parks has been absolutely smashed by funding cuts in recent years from LNP state govt, leading to significant loss of experienced people and capacity for fire management including planned burns and suppression work..I've seen figures that prescribed burning has been reduced in National Parks in recent years..If the windows for prescribed burning are getting shorter we just need more funding and resources to make sure it happens in the shorter windows of time in winter etc
Controlled burning in cooler weather does reduce the extent and severity of bushfires and allows fire crews opportunities to contain them when bushfires do occur where un-managed areas with high fuel loads does not offer this opportunity.
There is an important balance between fuel hazard reduction and maintaining biodiversity but at the moment most of the east coast and adjacent ranges of Australia has got it wrong and now faces ecological catastrophe from bushfires.
Climate change is contributing to unprecedented fire behaviour but we have the tools,technology and experience to mitigate this if we can rise above the politics and misinformation and get serious about coexisting with the increasing threat..Here is some wisdom and a Youtube webinar from one of Australia's most experienced fire managers on these issues..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9pktOlJ7Y&t=823s

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sean-doherty commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:16pm
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Blowin commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 12:32pm

Kelly....Prominent environmental activist !

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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:22pm

Indo Dreaming. Packham is given way too much credibility by the media and his opinions are laughed at by the majority of experts. Packham was part of the Stretton Group, who were nothing more than a deeply political "think tank" with links to the IPA, Australia's premier global warming denialist PR group.
He talks shit just like Kelly Slater.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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ashleygould commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:45pm

But he's a scientist and an expert.. I've read about him in the Daily Telegraph and the Herald Sun...I'm with him!
Lovely stuff Vic local!

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bongsalot commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:28pm

soil moisture means nothing when there is 10ft of ground cover..look at KI fire, they are not in drought, some of those places haven't missed out in rainfall at all why has that burnt so bad. To not look at back burning or if you want to be a pedantic fuckwit hazard reduction as no1 if not no2 cause your ignorant and willing for it to happen again.
Housing laws and restrictions/regulations will also be heavily looked at I am guessing but in all reality these are 100yr, one in a lifetime fires.
We will never see fires like this again

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:42pm

Where is this power the Greens have over fire management?

Seriously, can someone show me or put up a link?

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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:45pm

I'm sure you can find some BS opinion piece blaming the Greens in some Murdoch-owned rag that's not even good enough to wipe your brother's arse with.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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Lottolonglong commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:10am

Greens are infiltrated in local councils all up n down east coast,I'm from moruya (eurobodalla local council),my family and friends still there battling this fire now for a few weeks on all fronts and let me say sensible locals that own land backing onto scrub have been saying for year's they cannot clear trees and have their hands tied cuz of these greens in local councils
Common sense will show greens aren't in power at any other level other than local government . No link for u Andy, word of mouth from the frontline

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:34am

Of course no evidence or anything sensible, just pure bullshit.

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Lottolonglong commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:33pm

Check out how many greens are in your local council wherever u are living Andy

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thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:42pm

There are 1,480 Councillors in NSW.

58 are Greens (4%).

There are 42 members of the NSW Legislative Council.

3 are Greens (7%).

There are 93 members of the NSW Legislative Assembly.

3 are Greens (3%).

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:43pm

None.

Not one.

"The Greens currently have 58 councillors working for positive change across 32 councils in NSW."

Mate, there are 112 councils in NSW so that's an average of about 0.5 Greens councillors per Local Government Area.

You really are full of it.
Stop the mindless political bullshit and go and do some reading.

https://greensoncouncil.org.au/councils/

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:45pm

Again, the Greens have NO power when it comes to legislating or influencing reduction burns.

You're being had.

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jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:11pm
stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:19pm

And further to the gaslighting....see above.

How's the site that's pulled from?

https://www.theunshackled.net/

Check it out for a laugh.

He enjoys Dungeons and Dragons...

jpm87's picture
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jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:31pm

So instead of addressing the ABC quietly deleting their post you've set up a nice little strawman. Lol

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:19pm

Mate, follow that down the rabbit hole all you want. The same story is on another ABC page, maybe that's why it was deleted? Could be any of a thousand reasons. Did you research it or just react?

Go hard on the ABC, you and you culture warrior brethren, smash 'em to bits, then remember who it was issuing instructions non-stop across all communication mediums, across all effect regions, guiding the stranded people to safety.

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:53pm

When you start pointing to the unshackled to make a point, you've completely lost the plot. It's nothing more than the rantings of a racist conspiracy theorist fuckwit.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

jpm87's picture
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jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:27pm

Lol.

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jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:55pm

They get a billion dollars a year in funding, so that is their job.

But calling me a cultural warrior?? I read the ABC News each day. If there's ever a war, it's the ABC's war against Aussies and their history.

....And feel free to never drive to another surf break or catch a plane. Feel free to shout at everyone in the lineup on boards derived from petrochemicals. Go on Swellnet, put your money where your mouth is: turn your back on surf breaks requiring long flights; turn your back on advertising petrochemical boards; turn your back on any content containing jetskis assisting in any way.

May I ask how many overseas surf trips you've been on? How many hours behind the wheel you done for the barrels?

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memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:41am

Which Aussies? Those here like us here in a blink or the black fellas who have been around for a little bit longer. Love being a white fella but not proud of some pretty significant things which have happened in our past. Don't get defensive about it just admit it and could help to temper your nationalism.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:09pm

Who gives a shit?

Those protesters are nobodies, they're not Greens, they're not politicians, they write no policies and implement nothing.

Some bored wooly-minded pensioners.

This is irrelevant.

jpm87's picture
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jpm87 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:20pm

Not really ay. They successfully stopped the fire brigade in this instance.

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thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:50pm

You're in the Eurobodalla Shire? 

The Eurobodalla Shire Council has 8 Independent Councillors, and 1 Greens Councillor.

Not sure of the credibility of The Beagle ("Eurobodalla's Free and Independent On-line News"), or the background of this report, but it published an article last June that the "Mayor suspects extreme Greens are out to get control of Council".

In an unexpected revelation for the Mayor of Eurobodalla, Liz Innes , who was elected to represent the whole of the community, stated today on a social media website that "there is no doubt in my mind that the extreme greens are going to try very hard to get control of council. I stand in their way and always will!"

https://www.beagleweekly.com.au/post/2019/06/17/mayor-suspects-extreme-greens-are-out-to-get-control-of-council

Sounds like there's a bit of friction down there.

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skull commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 2:12pm

In NSW council seats there are 58 Greens in 1273 available Seats.

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Blackdog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:22pm

One that comes to mind: Look up the Ban on cattle grazing in the Victorian high country. The Greens played big a roll there. The mountain cattleman’s argument was that grazing cattle in the bush in the summer months keeps the fuel load down and lessoned the impact of fires. And It Worked for over 100 years.....
Yes there were negative impacts to the ecosystem but much better than total devastation I say...
We can’t just blame one political party or group of people (climate change deniers) or an individual (mr Slater) when WE have all had a roll to play...
P.s FYI all party’s that hold seat/s in parliament have some power/leverage. That’s how it works mate, they all get a say. So the greens do have some say over fire management as long as they have a seat...
hey Don’t the greens get something like 90% of there votes from the worst of the global warmers (the city people)???
; )

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:36pm

Great, another complete Bullshit artist arrives. The trial of alpine grazing in Victoria was scrapped in 2014 because there's no evidence it reduced fuel loads. The Greens don't have the balance of power in any state in Australia so they have no impact at all on fuel reduction burning regimes.
And as for your statement hey "Don’t the greens get something like 90% of there (sic) votes from the worst of the global warmers (the city people)???", that's the second stupidest thing said on this forum. Indo Dreaming takes the prize for his idiocy about Extinction Rebellion being arsonist.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:40pm

Great, another complete Bullshit artist arrives. The trial of alpine grazing in Victoria was scrapped in 2014 because there's no evidence it reduced fuel loads. The Greens don't have the balance of power in any state in Australia so they have no impact at all on fuel reduction burning regimes.
And as for your statement hey "Don’t the greens get something like 90% of there (sic) votes from the worst of the global warmers (the city people)???", that's the second stupidest thing said on this forum. Indo Dreaming takes the prize for his idiocy about Extinction Rebellion being arsonist.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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Blackdog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:53pm

You are a tripper Vic! I'm talking about the Fact that the Mountain Cattleman let there cattle graze in the bush for well over 100 years until they were band. Im not talking about some shit, short term "trial" set by the polies. I'm talking about 100+ years of accumulated, proven, knowledge from people that spend every day of there lives in that bush (past on by some family's for over 9 generations) (where is the studies on that trail?) all to be thrown out the window by some "do gooders" that have never been to there neck of the woods and spend all there time in parliament or in the city or in the textbooks (or in the forums).

I have never said the greens have have "balance of power" so don't put fucking words in my mouth mate!
All I said was that the greens hold seats so they have some leverage (not much, but it is some) so there is a small amount of "impact" from the greens. This is not something to agree or disagree on, This is a fact, like it or not! Even the second stupidest person on this forum knows that! Where dose that leave you??

As for the green votes thing, did you see the simile face with a wink after my statement. That was to suggest the statement was made with some sarcasm.
And to quote YOU personally:
"Fuck off logical. Greens Councillors make up 5% of local government councillors across Australia. Most of them are in INNER CITY COUNCILS and the percentage is much LESS in RURAL and REGIONAL AREAS where the fires are. Your argument makes no sense."
So where do the green votes come from?
Was I even talking to you anyway??
Go and do something productive to the cause and stop being a little bitch. Take a good look at what you are doing to destroy the joint before you criticise every other cunt. cunt.
then go and Listen to an old song called Enema by a band called tool.
Particularly the part about Dumb founded dipshits!
If you want to have talk about all this shit in person (yes the real world) I would be much obliging. ; )

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:45am

Bad hair day?

rich74's picture
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rich74 commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 12:30pm

so are you saying cattle eat forest instead of grass ? that's interesting. are they tree cows like tree kangaroos but eat bark and leaves and reduce structural fuel loads,fire intensity and rate of spread of bushfire ? ..we need more of these tree cows

Blackdog's picture
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Blackdog commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 9:11pm

It is a well known fact that cattle will eat any kind of palatable vegetation they can reach including grass.
Have you ever noticed that most trees in cow paddocks are stripped of there lower limbs and foliage to just above the height of the cattle's heads?
Or the lack of small shrubs and saplings in these paddocks?
Its because they get eaten. Sheep, deer, normal ground kangaroos and goats are the same. All Ruminants all need "roughage" in there diet. Cattle just eat more of it. When grass is scarce these animals will "browse" (eat leaves, twigs or other high growing vegetation) rather than "graze"(feed on grass)
A common practice for farmers in drought is to cut out of reach branches off eatable trees for there livestock to eat.
So I guess that's a YES mate... except they eat the long grass too!
Do you think that tree kangaroos could play a roll in fuel reduction??

rich74's picture
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rich74 commented Sunday, 12 Jan 2020 at 7:02pm

the argument to graze cattle in alpine environments makes as much sense as letting the brumbies trash the joint which seems to the policy of the NSW govt at the moment and backed by the ex-LNP politicians setting up Brumby tourism in the place, while delicate alpine waterways are getting completely trashed and more native animals get pushed to the brink of extinction..
tell me how the cattle are going to graze in the tree canopies to stop the crowning fires that are currently ripping through the high country at the moment and stopping the spotting that is happening over many km's (up to 30km)..maybe if CSIRO got serious with this tree cow idea we could reduce the fuel loads in the canopy and stop these fire storms once and for all..
The nonsense of people with a self interest to make $$ at the expense of the environment and stay ignorant to the actual impacts are why this country is getting smashed
as for tree kangaroos they live in rainforest so not normally near fires and not the world's most efficient herbivore

Blackdog's picture
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Blackdog commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 11:10pm

And LOOK OUT rich!!! They will eat your ganja crop too...

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tlearyus commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:25pm

This is for you Bongsalot (says it all really)

‎Fire and Rescue NSW Station 428 Queanbeyan‎ to Canberra Notice Board
3 January at 14:38 ·

HAZARD REDUCTION OR BACKBURN?

K so we’re not going to wade in to politics, it isn’t our job. So maybe leave that out of this.

What it is though, is to establish some facts about hazard reduction burning and backburns which are two VERY different things.

To start, Hazard Reduction burns are exactly as the name suggests. They are specifically designed to minimise hazards (think: heavy ground fuel loading) around urban interface-bush areas. Usually small areas that are designed to lessen the intensity (not stop, that’s key) that a fire will impact that interface. Usually completed in the cooler months when fire behaviour is less intense and much more preferable in a strategic sense than.....

BACKBURNING. Backburning is a tactical option used AFTER a bushfire has started in attempt to burn the fire back on to itself, therefore creating the buffer zone of already burnt ground that can’t be reburnt, obviously. The problem with conducting a backburn is that they’re often done with little time to account for things like flame height, fuel loading, temperature and wind changes and can sometimes increase the size of the fire front. They are often a last resort tactic to again lessen the impact (again, not STOP) of a bushfire.

Political parties of any denomination do NOT influence the decisions of organisations like FRNSW, ACT Fire and Rescue, ACT and NSW Rural Fire Services and Parks and Wildlife Services when choosing when and how to do Hazard Reduction burns. It just doesn’t work like that. The main reason Hazard Reduction burns are cancelled or delayed is due to the predicted intensity of the burn exceeding the limits that would make it safe for firefighters, native flora and fauna and obviously you wonderful people.

Be safe and share the word around

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bongsalot commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:50pm

wouldnt comment normally you just annoyed me with ya intro but back burning is used as part of hazard reduction not just after bushfires have been throught..if you are going to start hazard reduction/prescribed/controlled burning ya gunna have to back burn.
I may be a bit too old school we never had fancy terminology such as 'hazard reduction' we just called it back burning but hey, I understand your point.

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:48am

So same thing, burning undergrowth for a different reason.

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rich74 commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 12:42pm

The RFS info is correct for certain situations. 'Tactical' backburning is used during bushfires either just prior to a bushfire impacting a containment line or asset as a last resort (often in bad fire weather conditions) or is planned to be done in advance of a potential bushfire impacting an area, often at night and/or under cooler conditions with lower fire intensities and impact on the area .
Across Australia including in many Aboriginal communities, the term 'backburning' is often used to describe a planned burn in cooler months that burns slowly back in to the wind or create a 'backing' fire and avoids wind driven fires which can be more intense and damaging. These sort of fires tend to create a more mosaic burn pattern depending on conditions and fuel loads.

dropwallet's picture
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dropwallet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 1:05am

"we will never see fires like this again"

Damn. That's a pretty gutsy call. Show us your modeling, Bongs. As long as Australians want to live near the bush, then we'll see these kinds of disasters again. Coupled with climate change, more people living in peri-urban or bushland settlings means all levels of government, and communities, too, will need to start figuring out ways of mitigating these disasters. May not be in the places that are being hit now, given it'll be a while before there's something to burn, but it will certainly happen again - some other poor mob will get it.

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:30pm

Bongsalot. Look up Dunning-Kruger effect. You're a textbook example mate.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

adam12's picture
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adam12 commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:37pm

Indo doesn't want a back and forth, just throw up some discredited paid for shill of the IPA and run away. Fuckwit.

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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:42pm

Spot on adam12.
There's no such thing as pure consensus when it comes to science but the vast majority of experts in the field have been warning about climate change and increased bushfire intensity for decades. Indo Dreaming finds some out-riding "expert" and claims that bloke is right and all the other experts are wrong. Fuck me, if Indo Dreaming is old enough he'd believe the Phillip Morris scientists in the 1970s who claimed smoking doesn't cause cancer.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:01pm

Yeah a scientist that studies in the field of fire management and right here in Australia studying the very areas that are on fire, links and time given to him by credible sources and it's still all conspiracy theories to you and paid shills, because it doesn't fit into your own narrow views.

BTW. You know maybe once in a while you could be civil and not curse every sentence, by doing so it loses it's impact real fast and you just end up looking like a potty mouth bogan.

PS. Just checked out the Swellnet facebook comments, always a good read and much more balanced than here for some reason, maybe you should go over there and start abusing everyone with views that don't fit in with yours.

PSS. Im not a climate denier, I'm a climate skeptic, which means i believe it's highly likely man is having an influence on the climate through carbon emissions, but with that brings negative and positives not just all negatives and i keep an open mind to the fact that climate science is very complex and what we know in the scheme of things limited, so i don't just label or swallow the belief that everything that happens in the world today is caused by climate change, just like things in the past weren't automatically put down to one thing, but in most cases a combination of factors.

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adam12 commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:51pm

I'd rather be a bogan than a climate change denier, fuckwit.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:53pm

Vic Local gave you some pretty fair reasons why he's got no credibility.

Clivus Multrum's picture
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Clivus Multrum commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:59pm

What positives does it bring?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:11pm

Change is always a two sided coin, it almost always brings good and bad, benefits for some curses for others, the obvious big one is C20 promotes plant growth, warmer temps also open up large areas to farming (anyway i dont really want to get in a discussion here about it, its not the place and its been all said before in the forums and like everything scientist dont always agree so yes you can go trawl the internet for opossing views) but you asked so here is a very smart man talking about the subject, again he is not just some uneducated conspiracy theorist or something (but I'm sure haters will hate on him because to some everything needs to be black or white)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQHhDxRuTkI

Clivus Multrum's picture
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Clivus Multrum commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:19pm

CO2 will promote plant growth but I can’t see how that will outweigh the collapse of entire ecosystems

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:56am

Not much good if it doesn't rain as much either.

bignickystyles's picture
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bignickystyles commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:50pm

Against my better judgement, I enter the fray...

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/306/5702/1686

It's not 97% it was complete consensus in 2004. :/

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bongsalot commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:55pm

bit angry vic-local? you should get that checked, while ya there find out what that other thing is you were onto me about..hehe
in the meantime, if you dont want to believe ID thats fine but you will find the RFS, CFA, CFS and state n fed govs will come together and inplement a 'hazard reduction policy' for lack of a better term even though there wont be much left by then.

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dlbo commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:55pm

Prescribed burning is exactly that, prescribed and very calculated in a scientific way.

Prescribed burning is used for many reasons but usually for life/property protection, asset protection or ecological purposes. Burns are generally planned around fire history, fuel loads, soil moisture, vegetation types, ecological burn guidelines and similar factors.

Once these things have been considered essentially a 'prescription' is created which details the burn day factors required (wind direction/strength, temperature range, relative humidity, location of control lines, ignition patterns/sources) to complete the burn and achieve the necessary outcome. If the prescription can not be met on the day and the fire management staff are doing there job the burn will be rescheduled. If the prescription can not be met it is postponed till the next season and so on.

It is a science working on a thin line and depending on where you are in Aus the line is becoming thinner, to think you can just put fire into the landscape whenever and however you like is a ridiculously simplistic view. Of the 6 or 7 planned burns in my area this year (coastal SA) only around 50% could be achieved because they rest were out of prescription due to the weather related factors above.

In summary, every year a significant amount of fire is planned to create a mosaic of fuel loads across a landscape, however the reality in the past few years is it can not be achieved without significant risks and the reality is the windows are becoming much smaller.

If the devastating fire on Kangaroo Island was started by fire agencies during a
prescribed burn on the edge of prescription and not lightning strikes, the backlash would be hectic as is already seen if a prescribed burn 'over achieves'. Your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Clivus Multrum's picture
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Clivus Multrum commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 8:58pm

Fairly massive call from David Packham to say it has “nothing” to do with climate change, wouldn’t you think, Indo?

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:22pm

Packham is just one of a handful or ageing scientists who can be relied on by primary industries to say the right things. It's amazing how these tiny band of scientists always recommended solutions that involve more logging, more grazing in national parks, less national parks, and less regulations for farmers.
Denying global warming is the newest method to get on the speaking circuit. If you're an ageing scientist who doesn't do much research, but are happy to pump out op-ed pieces saying global warming doesn't cause coral bleaching or increase bushfires, there's some pretty good doe-ray-me to be made.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Clivus Multrum's picture
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Clivus Multrum commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:28pm

I agree with you, Vic. I’m just interested to see how climate deniers/ skeptics approach the issue, hence the questions

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 11:05pm

Agree it's crazy to make black and white statements either way like, current fires are because of climate change or climate change has no factor at all in current fires

Im sure it's more a reactionary statement made in frustration and opposition to other reactionary statements or views, im sure if talked about in more depth he would admit that even if only slight there was a factor of a change in climate or climate cycles etc but obviously his research has found fuel is the main factor.

I guess it's similar to what climate scientist Andrew Pittman said last year about droughts not being directly linked to climate change, it all way more complex than people want to believe or make out, but people generally want to view things in black and white ways and pick teams and beliefs to fight for or at least have things labeled, i try to keep an open mind but im the same after all we are only human..

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Max Wax commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:03pm

I'm surprised some of you are still arguing over the cause of all this. It's very easy tapping away in our safe homes discussing climate change vs other respective theories while everywhere around us is burning. Can't we do something as a supportive forum trying to prevent further damage? Let's use our time effectively
Condolences to all affected

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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:13pm

Fair point Max Wax but we need to play the long game here too. Smoko shows no signs of taking any meaningful action to reduce Australia's emissions, and you can safely assume that bastard will continue to undermine International action on climate change. If something doesn't change in a hurry, we will be having this same discussion a few years down the track.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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Max Wax commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:39pm

I agree that there are a lot of things that need to be done to stop this from being a common occurrence. i just wish people weren't at each others throats. Where's the line between making a level headed insight and being abusive.

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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 10:43pm

"i just wish people weren't at each others throats."
Sometimes, when the consequences are severe, you need to use a sledgehammer against fools.
Slater and a few others here are no better than anti-vaxxers. Their un-scientific bullshit does have consequences and it needs to be vigorously challenged. If nobody calls out the argument that the fires have nothing to do with climate change, policies won't change and people will needlessly die the next time climate change enhanced fires sweep the country.
Look what happened in Samoa when the anti-vaxxer message was believed. That's our future if Smoko gets his way during the inevitable post-fire blame shifting shitshow / inquiry.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 10:47pm

Agreed Vic, as far as I’m concerned the days of niceties and “aww, I spose everyone’s entitled to their opinion” are over.

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Max Wax commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:25am

Look i agree with what you two are saying, its essential to stand up for your beliefs. But i don't think anyone can 100% guarantee that the points kelly and others are making are 100% incorrect. I think they hold part of the truth, I believe it is a combination of factors leading to this lethal fire season. climate change + denial, dry soil, lots of fuel, lack of planning and funding for emergency action, strongest positive IOD in recorded history, positive SAM, little winter rain and so on....
Just because you don't agree on everything doesn't mean you agree on nothing.

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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:50am

Max it's not essential to stand up for your beliefs when your beliefs are misguided and half-baked.

To me there's no doubt that Kelly's talk of "mismanagement of forest underbrush back-burning" comes from the "green conspiracy to stop bushfire hazard reduction", would you agree with that?

Where else is he getting his info from besides a partisan source?

No non-partisan source talks talks like that.

Obviously the whole bushfire thing is a multi-faceted issue but the "blame the greenies" thing is bullshit, and everyone from the director of the centre for environmental risk management of bushfires, to a former NSW fire and rescue commissioner to the secretary of the Public Service Association will tell you that.

Fuel loads may play a part in bushfires but Slater's claim is just regurgitating political garbage and it shows him to be a pretty basic sort of person.

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Max Wax commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:20pm

i sure do agree that people like kelly should come to a more informed response before broadcasting to the public. My major point i have been trying to make is that having coherent and logical discussions like ours are far more productive, educational, and less hateful than the previous outbursts above.

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thermalben commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:20pm

Far Northern NSW has largely been spared any of the major, widespread bushfires seen across most other regions so far.

I am terrified for the rest of this season, and every (lengthening) season thereafter. 

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freeride76 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:19pm

Mt Nardi fire would be less than 40 minutes from your place.
Rappville fire claimed about 60 houses and would be no more than 2hrs from Tweed.

That fire claimed thousands of hectares and is still burning in peat.

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dlbo commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:26pm

thermalben try not to be terrified, if your in an extreme or high risk area (as often the most beautiful places are) have a plan and be prepared as best as you can for the safety of your family and those around you!

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vascectomy-blot... commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:28pm

And apparently it's the greens who stopped the hazard reduction burns.

Except, gasp, according to one branch of NSW Fire and Rescue posting on facebook, it's not the case... But you know, I stand with banarby etc.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/951618864874073?view=permalink&id=27351270...

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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:45pm

Don't stand with Barnaby on the fires. It's dangerous given the huge amount of high octane alcohol that muppet has spilt on himself.
Hate to see you go up in flames vascectomy-blot

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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mowgli commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:31pm

dlbo has summed it up pretty well.

I was involved in some of the response to the fires up here on the Sunshine Coast. As usual, the detail matters.

This from the DisMgmt and QFES folks at the time, the lack of hazard reduction burns (at least up here) DID contribute to the extent and severity of the fires. As dlbo pointed out, certain conditions have to be met for these burns to occur in a safe manner. And even then they can get out of hand through no fault of those managing the burn. Up this way, a few of the areas that had been flagged as 'overdue' for a burn (labelled as areas of 'serious concern') were flagged in 2015...then 2016...then 2017...then 2018...but the conditions were never met or had enough forecast certainty ahead of time to allow for the required resources to be mobilised. So the burns never occured. The fuel loads continued to build.

Why were the conditions during those preferred months so unfavourable to controlled burns? Well, one could posit that climate change is playing a role, and by all relevant indicators that seems to be the case.

So no combine an inability to reduce fuel loads safely, with an "angry summer" (definitely heavily climate change-influenced), and you get what we saw.

So as someone as sitting "inside the bubble" of these issues. It's incorrect to say, in an absolutist way, that a lack of hazard reduction burns has not played a role. However, the reason for this, in conjunction with the "fuck that" conditions leading up to this summer and being experienced right now, do indeed appear to be heavily influenced (read: the deciding factor) by....drum-roll please....climate change.

I hope that made sense. It's past my bedtime and I'm back at work tomorrow.

Also, how did Scotty from Marketing not understand that the best way to improve one's approval rating is to get up front in a disaster? The agencies leading the response do all the work, the politician becomes the mouthpiece/face of the response...does a good job (off the back of said agencies)...and approval ratings go up. Hate is a strong word but I am really beginning to hate him and his smug face.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:42pm

Well said mowgli.
The firies really are in a fucked up position re hazard reduction burns. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
And you do know who Scotty from Marketing is going to blame for high fuel loads. It will be the Greenies primarily, but the RFS / CFA etc are going to get the finger pointed at them too. Well, it's got to be someone other than Scotty from Marketing who gets shit canned.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Craig's picture
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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:03am

Thanks, good post Mowgli.

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GreenCT commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:35pm

https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/10/23/4112923.htm

Fire retardent planting both at an individual level, council and regional level.

An alternative to traditional firebreaks is a belt of high moisture content vegetation

mowgli's picture
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mowgli commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 9:40pm

Also, Tasmania's fire season is traditionally Feb-Mar, so there's still that to go...

Really hoping that system forming NW of the Pilbara swings down and across the southern states and brings some decent rains with it. https://www.cyclocane.com/

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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bassnake commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 10:02pm

With all due respect to those with a view, we are all entitled to our opinion. After all it is Australia not China. KS -GOAT whatever he is still a fucken yank-full of himself and the proverbial.
Lets focus on the victims who have lost houses, loved ones and the horrific loss of marsupials & birdlife.
Prevention of such devastating losses & housing of our growing population should focus on materials and management of fire breaks around properties. You cant simply expect to live in the bush and not expect at some stage to be potentially burnt out from fire when there is such heavy fuel load so close to property.
I am not a climate change advocate but the climate has been changing on this earth since it was formed all those millenia ago, we must learn to adapt to the new climate as it is showing exactly who is boss presently.
Fire has been a massive part of this country and the aborigines lived with it even encouraged burns for their own survival.
Lets learn from this that the bloody greenies have been influential in staving off fuel reduction in state & national parks for the past 2 decades. Put them firmly back in their box as being ill informed city centric idealists.
Go surf tomorrow and think of those who have lost loved ones and property, that will bring everything back into perspective.

Bass Strait

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carpetman commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 10:39pm

Anyone who says fuel reduction strategies is the issue hasn’t set foot in the Bush in east gippsland this year. In October there was nothing on the ground except dirt and a few leaves. Everything was dead or dying. No moisture. No grass. No saplings. You could walk through the Bush unencumbered in places you’d never dream of accessing 5 years ago.

I spoke to a bloke back there who said he wasn’t worried about the impending fire season because “you can’t burn dirt”.

adam12's picture
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adam12 commented Sunday, 5 Jan 2020 at 10:55pm

Just went and read the "bloody Greenies" policy statement, where I found nothing to support the bullshit mantra being peddled about them being the cause of these fires.
"Effective habitat management including ecologically appropriate use of fire."
"An immediate end to broad-scale land clearing to protect biodiversity and to arrest soil loss, river degradation and salinity." That's it. I was expecting to see "ban on all prescribed burning and fuel reducing in forest areas so that when record high temperatures and low soil moisture caused by either us or who knows what but definately not climate change occurs, mega fires will consume the landscape killing humans and animals and ecosystems leaving the country and its people scarred and burnt". That must be a hidden Greens agenda.

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bloodwood commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:12am

Well hell, Baldy, you sure did done stirred up that hornets nest.Made yourself a target for the haters among us.Yep,show some compassion after seeing char grilled skippy strung up in a fence by wondering out loud how this can be and now you are an abomination because you have been a passenger on an aircraft.Hmm.. As for climate change,all of us have been contributors to the present situation,in one way or another.If anyone has never used anything in the entirety of their lives that has kept them alive that has not in some way been created by burning oil, coal or gas....nah.. none of you are that old.Freedom and creativity has,apparently, come with a heavy price.My Mum used to say to me,listen, if you have a problem, the first thing you need to do is have a good look at you.Took me a while to work that one out.Anyhow, I digress.Fire needs 3 things.Oxygen, ignition and fuel to keep burning.The first is a given,the second is nearly always provided by humans in one way or another and the third is,from what I have read in this forum,the subject of much misunderstanding and understandably, emotion.Basic physics here.NO oxygen no fire.NO fuel no fire.For anyone to say hazard reduction burns are ineffective is a display of their real life inexperience in this matter and also their humanity.Who will not sit and stare into a campfire enthralled by its security and promise while knowing if they get too close they are in mortal danger? Humanity would not exist without fire.Based on my custodionship of a smallish bush block and around 9 years of burning to reduce the near 90 years of no fire,I can see it now has a chance of not being a total wasteland if an unplanned fire comes through.The difference in biodiversity is chalk and cheese,in spite of the fact that rainfall here has been well below average since March 2012,the last two years being the worst.Our politicians need to genuinely engage the true custodians of the land on which we stand and ask them to help us save us from ourselves.If we are lucky,Aboriginal Australia will step up.I would rate the the chances of that about the same as Kelly Slater inhaling another World Title.Baldy,please prove me wrong.Give the haters something more of the same to hate.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:19am

Soil moisture content.....FFS. Have you even seen a fire ? Have you ever lit a fire .....seriously ? Must of been crook the day they did fire lighting at uni , bro ?

Kelly is on to it.

And Phil Jarratt....what was the Xtreme unprecedented temperature during the Coolum fires ?

Phil hasn’t seen a fire like that in the entire time since he moved from the Gong.....and he wonders why it’s so severe now.

It’s called undergrowth, Phil.

Anyway ....what the fuck does Phil care about the local environment ? I thought he was all on board with ol’ mate Starky to raze the scrub for developers anyway ?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:36am

The pile on against Kelly thinking you’ve got the moral high ground of climate change excusing your stupidity.....get fucked.

Come around here where the fires have destroyed property and killed crew. Take a long hard look at the decades deep detritus from the canopy which has accumulated due to lack of back burning and tell me that it’s soil moisture or the esoteric magic of climate change......dick heads.

The fire risk is still sky high. Because of heat ....no. Because of soil moisture.....no. Because of climate.....no. Because of fuel in the scrub....yes.

If tomorrow was a day of regular temp and regular wind and some cock decided to start a fire then it would be the same nightmare as a few weeks ago. The bush would go nuts and breed flames . It’s dry , but it’s ...So thick in the understory.

Its dry....perhaps climate change ? The rest is just regular fuel triangle with super loaded fuel. Get your head around it.

No backburn = fuel buildup = postponed fires = greater intensity fires = less manageable = tragedy.

Stick your moralising in your arse. Kelly is doing you fucks a favour - and my family- by drawing international attention to the issue and putting pressure on our fuckstik government to act like they give a fuck.

Go Kelly !

Still think that Pamela was the best trophy you ever heft.

podrig's picture
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podrig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:33am

Pop Quiz:

Which political party in this country would be more strongly in favour of implementing Indigenous land management practices, including but not limited to back burning aka hazard reduction?

(a) Those bastions of Aboriginal rights and tireless champions of First Nations Custodianship, the Liberal National Coalition

(b) The party who dismissed the Uluru Statement from the Heart as a political stunt and refused to even consider it's recommendations, The Greens

Lottolonglong's picture
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Lottolonglong commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:26am

Agree on all of ur comments blowin, someone please try an experiment of lighting a fire with NO fuel, then light a fire WITH fuel,please post your results,!!!!!!!

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podrig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:13am

“ In the last full fire season of 2018 and 2019, the National Parks and Wildlife Service in NSW told Guardian Australia it carried out hazard reduction activities across more than 139,000 hectares, slightly above its target.

There are two major restricting factors for carrying out prescribed burning. One is the availability of funds and personnel, and the second is the availability of weather windows.

The 2018-19 annual report of the NSW Rural Fire Service says: “The ability of the NSW RFS and partner agencies to complete hazard reduction activities is highly weather dependent, with limited windows of opportunity. Prolonged drought conditions in 2018-19 adversely affected the ability of agencies to complete hazard reduction works.””

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/05/explainer-how-eff...

Craig's picture
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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:08am

I'm not saying that soil moisture is the solitary cause, just saying that the lack of it is causing these fires to spread and burn easier than they usually would.

And that's linked to climate change re reduce in rainfall, increased heat, drought etc.

bloodwood's picture
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bloodwood commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:40am

Blowin, please forgive them their ignorance and inexperience.It is something that needs to be experienced in practical terms, not uni terms.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:43am

So much talking of shit .

How was the graphics ? Fucks sake.

bloodwood's picture
bloodwood's picture
bloodwood commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:58am

Lesson 101 do not rely on the gummint.Engage people with real knowledge and do what you need to do that way you may not need a fire plan because you do not have a threat.

redsands's picture
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redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:24am

Have family that lives near the Wombeyan Caves for forty years. For the last thirty years there has been not one hazard reduction burn during the winter months. We've watched the shit build up with less rain each year through the mountains. It was a matter of time. We shook our heads as idiotic backburning in December did one thing only and that was to make everything worse. You see doing a hazard reduction burn in winter actually requires a lot of effort as the fire won't burn by itself . It needs constant attendance to keep going, hard back breaking labour. Where as in summer you light a match for your so called backburn and watch it go where it wants.

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:30am

"We had a bushfire two months ago that burned most of our property. It didn't matter. It burned again."

"There was no fuel on the ground, it was already burned."

https://www.armidaleexpress.com.au/story/6494023/opinion-we-did-burnoffs...

Clivus Multrum's picture
Clivus Multrum's picture
Clivus Multrum commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:09pm

That‘s frightening for future fire preparedness efforts

Sea Dub's picture
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Sea Dub commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:44am

The quality of this debate is laughable.

"We are all entitled to our opinions", "no fuel no fire". Many are truisms. Most are irrelevant.

Look at your children; think about future generations; think about the beauty being destroyed (GBR etc). Then ask yourself: how do you justify ignoring the vast weight of scientific evidence?

redsands's picture
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redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:46am

Ben, yeah but that's comparing it to the Nattai.

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:47am

@redsands
“You see doing a hazard reduction burn in winter actually requires a lot of effort as the fire won't burn by itself”

Interesting

Is that because all the fuel has gone away on holidays?

We have bushfire “seasons” for a reason, despite the fuel always being there.
Those seasons are getting longer and generally more intense.

frog's picture
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frog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:57am

Well, Pink donated $500,000. Kelly posted a picture and and typed some simplistic words on a complicated topic.

Frogg

Vic Local's picture
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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:30am

The big problem with this debate is some people just grab the easiest piece of information (eg op-ed pieces in tabloid papers) that broadly supports a pre-disposed position and then they hold it up and say SEE, I'M RIGHT.
Very few people read full reports by respected scientists these days. They are more difficult to find, take longer to read, and require some basic fucking cognitive skills. It's a triumph of ignorance over expertise and that's one of the reasons why the country is in such a fucked up position now.
I'm not an expert so I put my trust in the conclusions from the vast majority of scientists who have been warning that climate change creates more and more intense fires. It's the same reason why I go to doctors instead of the internet when I'm sick. Basic common sense.

So if you have time, go read what the government was told in 2009. It was a very big red flag. And remember that Abbott and his merry band of arseholes got back into power by campaigning against action on climate change and have been ignoring the advice ever since. So much so, Smoko refused to meet expert firefights in May who had serious concerns about the upcoming fire season. The PM simply wanted to remain wilfully ignorant about the link between fire intensity and climate change. These fires are so much worse due to these arseholes.

https://www.environment.gov.au/climate-change/adaptation/publications/fi...

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Craig's picture
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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:11am

Well said!

tango's picture
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tango commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:24pm

Indeed.

I'm getting pretty sick of people going the easy road and blaming "back-burning" when they don't understand what it is or why it can be dangerous. Those who think this climate issue is a conspiracy need a kick in the arse - it's about risk management. Imagine you're out the back and one of the boys sees a big fin. Out of nowhere the spotter chopper loud-hails the pack and hits the siren but some fuckwit didn't see it so they tell everyone not to worry, it's a conspiracy by the chopper to clear the lineup. The only difference with climate is that the fuckwits are making us all stay in the water with the pointer and there's no way out. That's what shits me more than anything - this is a threat that the uninformed are happy to gamble all our futures on just so their lifestyle or entitlements won't be threatened. It's appalling.

redsands's picture
redsands's picture
redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:04am

Shoredump. The soil is 5 degrees and damp in winter. You need a rake and effort. Most people are lazy and can't be bothered and choose to try and do it in summer.

saltman's picture
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saltman commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:14am

For the record Kelly holds anti vaccine views

Chatting to him on a back beach years ago He asked why I wasn’t going out Explained I was in the midst of chemo for Head and neck cancer (same one as Hynd got a few years later) We talked about the sources and I explained the role of HPV in this particular cancer as well as women’s cervical Ca
And the step I took to have my son vaccinated after my diagnosis
Kelly raises his eyebrows and warns me of the dangers of vaccines!
Speechless

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robert kelly commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:18am

KS is spot on “forest mismanagement during winter months and the lack of water resources.
But no let’s make it political fellas, climate change and Scott morro.
Parks and wildlife beaurocracy fining property owners who install dams (a hole in the ground) and clear the load on their own property.
Green bull shit council policies,
10 - 20 years of “do nothing except let people build houses in the bush
5 year drought in said areas
Australia’s annual bush fire season
Perfect storm
Such endless bull shit while our east coast burns.
The sun controls this planets climate.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:35am

Are you for real Robert Kelly? Let's not make this political and then you immediately launch into the biggest load of political bullshit I've seen on this thread. Parks authorities only have jurisdiction over National Parks land so they have no say on what happens on private property. Go back to the Daily Telegraph if you want to spread that shit.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

frog's picture
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frog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:37am

Terrible fire season has many causes:
- recent super dry period so forest undergrowth and fuel, grass, farmland, gardens - in fact everything - is tinder dry
- successful firefighting over the years makes an eventual fire even more explosive.
- even small shifts in the climate can create large local short and longer term weather impacts - a few less east coast lows for example, on a coast where they deliver a lot of the rainfall. In some years, just one deep east coast low is what separates a wet season from a drought.
We don't need some major climatic shift to move into a very different fire regime - just factor on top of factor and time will do it.

As Smoko Scomo is learning, too much skepticism (and reliance on prayer as opposed to action) creates a mindset that says "she'll be right" and so worst case scenarios are put aside when planning. I am sure Smoko felt anointed as special by the big fella in sky when he won the election and was told this was the case over and over every Sunday by hundreds of fellow worshipers. The seeds of inaction were sown. Thoughts of "what if it gets really bad" over the winter were pushed aside as negativity and lack off faith.

Cracks are appearing.

Frogg

belly's picture
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belly commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:48am

Spot on!

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:39am

spot on spot on!

"- successful firefighting over the years makes an eventual fire even more explosive."

this point has been totally overlooked in the over enthusiasm to blame the greens for fuel build up. fires pretty much burnt out naturally before we became so good at fighting them, keeping loads in check. the (natural) fuel load that has built up over decades was massive!!

you could probably throw green practices in their too, if you are that way inclined...

"...As Smoko Scomo is learning, too much skepticism (and reliance on prayer as opposed to action) creates a mindset that says "she'll be right"... "

Indeed

god (or nature) tends to taketh away when one takes things for granted...

Smo-co got too cocky with his batphone to the big fella

Vijay's picture
Vijay's picture
Vijay commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:45am

It’s time for us to get together as a nation and create change!
Our government is completely out of touch with its people and needs to go!
https://www.change.org/p/david-hurley-governor-general-calling-on-the-go...

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:37am

Ha ha...this is the biggest joke ever.

We live in a democracy where everyone over 18 gets a chance to vote, you had your chance and you will get it again in a few years, that's how democracy's work.

All these lame petitions are is a bunch of signatures from people who's vote ended up being a losing vote.

For petitions like this to hold any weight, you would need over 50% of the population to sign and then evidence all signed are genuine, no double ups and all from Australians and all from people over 18 etc totally impossible.

Otherwise after every election loss, parties would be pouring resources into getting petitions like this rolling trying to over throw results.

Funny how all around the world when one side of politics lose's they cant take the result and look for all kinds of other ways to try to get their way, the best example is this in the USA with Trump and the witch hunt against him, that is more likely going to work in his favour and help his chances of getting re-elected.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:47am

a fucken joke indeed

totally meaningless

slacktivism and virtue-signalling that will achieve nothing but the solidification of echo chambers and the widening of the divide

the internet at it's best...

mitchvg's picture
mitchvg's picture
mitchvg commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:47pm

Forgot about the term slacktivism. Randomly flicked to this comment thank you sypkan can count on you being worth a read.

Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:48pm

Agree ID, can we get a like option swellnet?

teanorris's picture
teanorris's picture
teanorris commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:48am

Blowin etc. you guys are delusional. It seems you think people have no hand in this mess other than failing to not burn enough.
We are more responsible for environmental manipulation without regard for consequence than any other phenomena we can point our finger at.
Have a look at the figures in this article and tell me we have no hand in changing climates and the creation of dangerous conditions for life on earth. http://www.igbp.net/news/pressreleases/pressreleases/planetarydashboards...
Seriously, get your hand off it.

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:54am

Of course fuel loads are a major contributor to these fires, everyone agrees they played a part.

It’s the hotter dryer conditions, fuelled by climate change, forecast by many, that some seem to want to bury their head in the sand about.

This was forecast

And we aren’t pulling this one back before a major drop in human population. It’s going to just keep getting worse

Vijay's picture
Vijay's picture
Vijay commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:50am

Also, the fact that people still believe climate change isn’t real and that the greens are responsible for these fires is beyond comprehension.
We can’t afford to keep denying something that is so obviously happening.
We need to act and act fast before it’s all too late.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:56am

teanorris ....seems like we both agree.

“The research explores the underlying drivers of the Great Acceleration: predominantly globalisation”

redsands's picture
redsands's picture
redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:00am

VIC LOCAL you are correct. If you have property in a national park or border onto one you are no longer allowed to do any hazard reduction burns in the winter not even along one's property fence line. If you do it doesn't take long before a helicopter buzzes overhead followed by a park ranger and a hefty fine.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:16am

What state are you talking about redsands?

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

channel-bottom's picture
channel-bottom's picture
channel-bottom commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:29am

What state?

The facts are clear for NSW. You can't burn it but you can clear it.
https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/plan-and-prepare/1050-vegetation-clearing

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:37am

Bullshit Channel Bottom.
https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-information/BFDP
Fuel reduction burning on private land in NSW is fine as long as you get a permit. This is to ensure the burn is done safely. Can I suggest that anyone who gets a helicopter buzzing over their burn, followed by a fine is being an irresponsible fuckwit who hasn't notified the RFS and hasn't got a permit to do dangerous work.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

D-Rex's picture
D-Rex's picture
D-Rex commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:06am

Hooray for Vic! He has (yet again) got instant solutions for all problems brought on by
the Conservative governments in OZ and the Murdoch press. To add to his credibility he has now added KS to his hit-list. I hope all swellnetonians get right behind Vic in eliminating these blights on our society.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:40am

+1

Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:54pm

+2

tango's picture
tango's picture
tango commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:30pm

It is hard when someone actually does their homework and finds the rule book, revealing the logical explanation for why fuckwits aren't allowed to do stupid things which endanger everyone and everything.

redsands's picture
redsands's picture
redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:20am

Climate change is real. Combine that with not doing hazard reduction burns and it's ready to go each spring. Climate on earth has always changed going through cycles from warmer than now and colder than now many times. But these changes have sometimes taken thousands to millions of years to go from cooler to warmer or warmer to cooler. The fact that we've noticed change in a few generations should be worrying for everyone. It's like we sped up the process.

Blackdog's picture
Blackdog's picture
Blackdog commented Saturday, 11 Jan 2020 at 12:23am

Spot on... Some theories are that some of the extreme climate change events have almost been instant! For instance Meteor/commit strike. Some thing that we will never know for sure.
BRING ON CLIMATE CHANGE, I say....
Humans have destroyed more of this planet than all the living things that have ever existed combined!
That make us the biggest PEST species on earth, since the start of time.....
Get rid of the pests I say!!! Other shit will live on and evolve...
No point delaying the inevitable, A quick death is better than a slow suffering death. I'm fucking sick of suffering. Even though, I still try to not do as many things that impact the environment too much like having kids (I do like puss) or run aircon at home.
Shit I'm a fence sitter!
You are right. The cause of the fires is a combination of things.

mugofsunshine's picture
mugofsunshine's picture
mugofsunshine commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:29am

This Carousel ain't gonna stop going round but I think most people (even the 'Quiet' ones), would get on board cancelling all subsidies to the multi nationals profiteering (non taxpaying to boot) from increasing global carbon emissions and diverting those funds to a national land management policy/department that tackled the issues we're seeing now

innatube's picture
innatube's picture
innatube commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:44am

Blowin puts in his misinformed 2c worth as usual.

You're not on the sunshine coast fuckwit so keep your bullshit on this area in your mouth where it belongs.

Yes I'm a little bit angry.

Especially with flat earthers like indo blowin and scummo.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:54am

Yay let's have a discussion without a variety of views and opinions, sound's fun.

And don't you dare say yes but your views are uniformed opinions, because in doing so you are also calling experts in this field uniformed as i have shown in reliable links, plus the indigenous people of this land who also knew how important the use of fire was for fire management uniformed.

Like many things in life there is a variety of factors, ignoring one or the other is crazy.

redsands's picture
redsands's picture
redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:47am

Vic Local. NSW .

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:53am

https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-information/BFDP
It's fine to do fuel reduction burns on private land if you do it safely, get a permit, and register the burn with the RFS. The last thing anyone needs is a bunch of amateurs lighting up without telling anyone their plans.
Do some research before you post (or spark a match) mate.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

redsands's picture
redsands's picture
redsands commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:51am

It's not dangerous in winter as it won't burn. Removing the vegetation is impossible by hand especially in areas that are accessible by foot only. Don't worry I've asked the relos many times why do you want to live here.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:04am

All fire risks are worth addressing but as my mate who is a strike force commander with the CFA (Vic) says of all the fire risk Indicators they use the one that tips everything to extreme is moisture content of the fuel load. Dry bush = extreme fire conditions.

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:16am

There ya go Blowin.

bongsalot's picture
bongsalot's picture
bongsalot commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:27am

This is only the beginning you can tell the shock is starting to wear off with people because they are now coming to grips with the realisation of the devastation..coldest start to the year for ages the next couple days in sth oz..do you reckon K.Islanders who have lost everything would like to keep warm around a fire? sad but ironic.
Some of this bushland will never recover, where realky bad fires have been through 5-10-15yrs later the bush has regenerated but the scars really still show through it wont properly recover for another 10yrs if ever..crazy!!
Lots of people will be or are under insured if insured at all..good time for the building industry though, any building trades for that matter.
Lots of loss of wildlife but the introduced pests will be knocked off as well..also the overabundance of native animals in some areas may be get a better balance(kangas)..
Balance is an interesting term isn't it?
We need balance in our ecosystem, fire management, environment, economy, population everything.
Dont forget about west oz and nullabor too..10,000acres burnt on the w.c of sth.oz..nullabor highway shutdown for 5 days..cut off.
We had 6.5mm of rain yesterday, some places 12mm, maybe more incoming hopefully east coasters get some too!

tango's picture
tango's picture
tango commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:35pm

Balance is indeed an interesting term, though it's been hijacked in recent times to try and make a case for keeping the good old boys happy and allowing them to keep buggering things up and making money while moving slowly towards more sustainable options. It's not about balance, it's about simply doing the right thing ASAP and moving our systems away from the unsustainable practices we have. Balance is a bastardised term that keeps on compromising the outcomes away from the fundamental shift we need.

wax-on-danielson's picture
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wax-on-danielson commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:30am

The Weather Makers by Tim Flannery gives a good insight into the Earth's history of climate, chemistry and biology. The main take away for me was there are 7 or 8 (depending on WTF Pluto is) other Planets in the Solar System and none of them can support life, meaning a planet doesn't really give a fuck if anything lives on it or not. We also have satellites flying around space looking for life and the closest planet that might have water is 175 light-years away, unless you can live to 200 and fly at 200,000km a second, you will never find out what it is like. We shouldn't take Earth for granted. What will people spruiking bush mismanagement spruik when sea levels change like they have a hundred times in the Earth's history before, water mismanagement?

yogmiester's picture
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yogmiester commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:47am

Aboriginals were managing the land just find for thousands of years before we came and fucked it all up. They had no problem doing hazard reduction when needed. When Europeans first saw Australia they were amazed that it looked like park lands rather than the over grown forests that we have now.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Biggest-Estate-Earth-Bill-Gammage-ebook/dp/B00...

Interesting article here on how the aboriginals continue to manage the land in South-East Arnhem Land to protect against wildfires. If they can continue to do it then why can't we? Putting it in the too hard basket is just a cop out and leads to the issues we now have.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-11-27/indigenous-knowledge-comb...

Blaming it on climate change does nothing to fix the problem either. The world is warming. It has been been for a long time. We obviously need to adapt to the new climate and find ways of mitigating the problems rather than squabbling over whose fault it is. You have idiots out there blaming Scomo for global warming. How can global warming be one man's fault?

Also, this summer's temeratures are far from "unprecendented". Check the news for 1896. They had similar temperatures back then. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64889112

I think it's pretty safe to say that this year has been an extraordinary culmination of a warming planet, lack to forest management, the indian ocean dipole and fuckwit arsonists. Hopefully it's a wakeup call to our politicians to start better managing the forests because you can either sit back and blame everything on climate change or you can start evolving to live with the changing climate.

tango's picture
tango's picture
tango commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:40pm

They had high temps but they didn't have the number of extreme heat days we have now. To try and compare extreme events like that is just lazy - they are definitely unprecedented given their regularity.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:04am

"The world is warming. It has been been for a long time"

Another flat earther.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:09am

"You have idiots out there blaming Scomo for global warming. How can global warming be one man's fault?"

Well, speaking for me alone, anger directed at Smoko is anger that's been pent up over a decade as successive LNP leaders have strapped a stick of C4 to any policy that's dared mention the words 'renewables' or 'climate change'.

Tony Abbott, for instance, rejected the Finkel Report without even reading it. He also said climate change was crap, utterly refusing to engage with it.

Smoko is just the latest face, and unfortunately for him he's the one standing now the music has stopped.

I'd expect any effort to take climate change seriously - not the business-as-usual token effort Smoko is about to argue for - will include mitigation and adaptation.....and not taking lumps of coal into parliament.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:32am

Well said Stu, but anybody with half a brain knows how this is going play out.
Smoko and his climate change denying buddies have zero interest in mitigating the impacts on climate change. They are 100% owned by fossil fuel interests, have undermined international efforts to reduce greenhouse gases, and would rather let the country fucking burn rather than take on Gina, Clive and the other climate criminals.
Smoko's team is already backgrounding journalists trying to shift the blame to state governments, local councils and greenies. It's so bad, Smoko's team has been bad mouthing the NSW Liberal Government to hack journos who can be relied on to ignore the fact that climate change is a massive part of the problem.
Debating the flat earthers is pointless. Calling the climate change denialists, birthers, anti-vaxxers etc a pack of ignorant cunts (and I rarely use that term) is the only sensible option.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:13pm

Yet per capita Australia has the highest uptake of roof top solar in the world, per capita Australia's rate of renewables has been two to three times faster than any other country???

Government pours billions into to renewables only this October Scomo gave an extra one billion to the clean energy council, we even blew 500 million this year on Pacific nations for renewables because we felt guilty our 1.3% of emissions is somehow affecting them. (500 million that would be mighty handy right now for victims of fires etc)

But let's ignore all this and just say Australia is doing nothing because it fits in better with our political views.

Lets also ignore the fact that almost every other developed country in the world has a head start on carbon free energy because they have decent amounts of Nuclear and Hyrdo something liberal governments for decades have pushing for and ironically Green groups opposed too.(even Hyrdo) An aspect that should be noted has inflated out per capita emissions compared to other developing countries with decent chunks of these non carbon energy sources.

But hey if if there is not some magic carbon tax then then the government is doing nothing.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:12pm

“The Young Liberals exist within the party to reflect the views of young people, to our MPs, to our wider party, and I think from our point of view, climate change is a particularly important issue for our generation because it concerns the actions of today affecting the lives and quality of life of my generation, but also generations to come,” he said.

“And we certainly understand that it is a risk that we will particularly face, my generation, if nothing is done in the present.”

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:24pm

To keep you happy per capita how much faster would you like our up take up of roof top solar to be?

How much faster than other countries would our uptake of renewables need to be?

Obviously two to three times faster isn't fast enough so five times faster, ten times faster?

Facts are facts, you can pretend for your own political views that Australia is not in the midst of a renewable boom , but the reality is we are, its not going to stop either, its a snow ball effect it's driven by the fact that renewables energy makes economical sense.

At some stage though we will have serious base load energy problems , because like other countries we don't have non carbon base load energy.

So like it or not we are either stuck with coal for this or we need to convert to gas like UK has, but what would this mean for fracking?

IMHO fracking sucks, anything that adds to reason for more of it sucks.

IMHO i honestly don't think you people will be happy unless there is so kind of dodgy carbon tax or trading scheme to fudge figures.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:25pm

Dodgy carbon tax?

Go look at the countries that have introduced it and how successful it's been.

Calling it dodgy is straight out of the Peta Credlin playbook.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:01pm

Carbon taxes also have other negative effects especially on lower income earners.

If Australia uptake of renewables was low and there was no natural drivers to push renewables, then yes it would make sense to look at other ways of driving change, but it's clearly not needed.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:26am

Also Yogmiester, I'm curious as to why you would accept the science which explains the existence of an IOD but not accept the science regarding AGW.

Patrick0710's picture
Patrick0710's picture
Patrick0710 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:29am

Some facts from Greg Mullins:

"The issue in extreme drought like this, underpinned by 20 years of reduced rainfall, so 15-25% reduction in winter rainfall which has meant our window for hazard reduction is very narrow now because it’s either too wet or too dangerous to burn, reduction over decades in forestry and National Parks personnel who’re out there doing the hazard reduction, so it’s fallen to volunteers and we are mainly only available on weekends, so there are all these factors but it’s what annoyed ex-fire chiefs, I suppose was that it was being used as an attack, the Greens are stopping burning, it’s actually not true."

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:44am

"The Public Service Association has also attacked the NSW government for what it said was a “35% cut to fire-trained positions” in national parks.

Its acting general secretary, Troy Wright, said on Tuesday: “It is the Nationals who hold the purse string. Rather than funding the NPWS properly so that they can undertake strategic reductions they have crippled them with massive budget cuts and devastating restructures.”"

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:45pm

Yes because Greens stopped back burning - so jobs not needed anymore.

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:47am

Kelly is right.
The fuel load built up as Councils hijacked across Australia by the Greens and stopped back burning is the primary cause. Why - because I have been following this for about 5 years - AND THIS FIRE WAS PREDICTED because of the fuel load built up.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:19pm

Fuck off logical. Greens Councillors make up 5% of local government councillors across Australia. Most of them are in inner city councils and the percentage is much less in rural and regional areas where the fires are.
Your argument makes no sense.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:21pm

Yeah but he's been following this issue for five years.

You know, since he was in nappies.

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:49pm

You must be a Green voter given you lead with the F*** word. Let me guess you also do share accommodation and will for life. And drive a 30 year old bomb with a bumper sticker supporting the ABC.

sledgedog's picture
sledgedog's picture
sledgedog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:01pm

Can we rename him illogical?

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:58am

Human CO2 IS A LIE.
When Julia Gillard started this crap NOT A SINGLE WEATHER scientist was prepared to be her human CO2 climate change champion. So she had to settle for a bone scientists instead - Tim Flannery.

Now your Left Wing based University job and those research grants totally depends on the weather scientists peddling climate change......what else can they say ?

And all the crap that Australia CO2 is highest per capita in the world is down right propaganda to mislead people. It implies we are wasters so should sign up to aggressive Paris reduction targets. Pure rubbish, we have a tiny 25 million people spread out over a country the size of the USA with 320 million people. So to run the country is essential usage and not WASTE.

And why bug the Govt on climate change. Australians care little, We have year on year record sales of large SUV/4WDs; Air Conditioners, Plane Flights etc.

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:02pm

Forget climate change - this is only a by product of over population,
Forest's, Insects, Animals - extinction levels. everywhere.
Polluted rivers and waters.
Endless wars, famine, refugees.
NONE CAUSED BY CO2 - but too many people.
7 Billion humans today.
12+ Billion by 2050.

Population reduction targets - NOT PARIS CO2 targets.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:28pm

Logical your name suits you, but sadly i dont know how we reduce the unsustainable population problem that yes is the root cause of all these problems,

So to be fair we do need to look at these problems in other ways too.

Mishad's picture
Mishad's picture
Mishad commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 8:56pm

No Need to worry about population as a problem, birth rates already declining and population predicted to start declining from 2040. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/earth-s-population-may-start-to-...

Sea Dub's picture
Sea Dub's picture
Sea Dub commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:52pm

Logical,

I'll bite, assuming your last statement is not a classic "Look over there!" attempt.

Population is a key issue. Reduction is a pretty radical policy, but sustainable population ... now there's a thought we should bend our mind to.

However, as a country, we bought into spin about a "war on the weekend", and "meet and beat" etc on climate policy, so which electable party is going to go to the electorate with a fixed population policy, let alone a reductionist policy? The other party will mention security, China/Pacific, defence budgets etc, and the Reductionists will be in the political wilderness for decades.

You need to get real.

Pointing to the number of people on the planet will not help you when sea levels rise, millions are displaced and migrate, your home burns down etc. We have to solve the problems we can solve. The rest of the developed world is doing better on CO2 emissions than Australia, while our LNP and mining industry leaders think its a smart move to extract the last profits from a dying energy source and industry. Fools.

And meanwhile species are being pushed to edge of extinction; the Murray Darling is rooted; people are dying in fires; air quality is shit; and I could go on.

Logical's picture
Logical's picture
Logical commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:45pm

You miss the point entirely - your own argument is HUMAN CONTRIBUTED CO2.

Therefore human populations are the problem.

Okay stop coal mining. China and India will buy coal from Russia and South Africa that pollutes more and is less efficient.

Ozzies output 1.5% (exc coal going overseas).
Go 100% renewable tomorrow. In a global shared atmosphere it will make ZERO DIFFERENCE.

A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:08pm

Hey Logical

Typical RWNJ bullshit.

Fuck off back to JoNova and WUWT.

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:20pm

Where's the like button for comments from A Salty Dog?

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed's picture
Nigeisblessed commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:03pm

What's to like? Bring some debate, shoot him down with well researched UNBIASED facts. The old Fuck off back to where you came from isn't much of an argument - sounds like question time in Canberra.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:21pm

""The Public Service Association has also attacked the NSW government for what it said was a “35% cut to fire-trained positions” in national parks.

Its acting general secretary, Troy Wright, said on Tuesday: “It is the Nationals who hold the purse string. Rather than funding the NPWS properly so that they can undertake strategic reductions they have crippled them with massive budget cuts and devastating restructures.”"

I don't dispute any of this, and it's clearly a factor. however my concern is that smo-co and co. are now going to totally overreact and throw money around everywhere (they already are) as governments do when they are totally caught out...

some will be cool with this, but really we are going to now have a total overspend on all sorts of equipment and 'solutions' with the huge commensurate carbon footprint that you would require to cover up such a massive fuck up .

the forest is now all burnt, so no big fuel problem for a decade or so. combine that with the drought cycle kicking in the other way, the problem will be 'solved' for a period

and we'll end up with whole heap of public servant type positions sitting around twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do but micro manage a problem expired

as government tends to do

when really the resources could be better focussed

bongsalot's picture
bongsalot's picture
bongsalot commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:29pm

fair call logical, and of all the generations the climate doomers, millenials are huge consumers. Consumption is higher than its ever been!!.and when asked what people are willing to give up or change it all comes down to their hip pocket.
Gone are they days of you just make do with what ya have..its too easy to just get stuff now and I suspect parents find it harder to say no!
So not only are people not willing to give up high energy usage and high energy intensively produced products, when its newer more environmentally friendly upgrades are avaliable the old chestnut of 'I'd love to get it BUT its TOO expensive' comes out..
Having their cake and eating it too, some of these people are the hardest peddlers of the climate catastrophe too.
Go figure
For all the Scomo bashing that I am not too fussed over, it is worth noting Daniel Andrews withdrew 40mill of funds from the vics CFA..
Cant do much about it now, lets hope both sides, state and feds can produce sensible, helpful, significant outcomes.
I must say I have admired how fed labor have stayed out of the politics, scomo is doing their job for them I suspect but nothing is worse than the tit for tat pettiness in a situation like this(probably the media are doing it for them as well)

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:33pm

I agree i haven't followed everything but Albanesse from what I've seen has been very restrained much more than i think Shorten would have been, good to see him not digging in deep to cheap shot politics, it's common sense really if he got in next term, he would be in the same position and wouldnt have magic bullets either, only advantage he would have is being able to blame past liberal governments...but still from what I've seen hats of too him. (that said i might have missed stuff)

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:30pm

Obfuscation Bonghead.

Slater is still a useful idiot and the science on AGW has proven to be very accurate after decades of warnings.

uncle_leroy's picture
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uncle_leroy commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:32pm

The biggest elephant in the room and one not being talked about much is what the fire season would have looked like without.......ARSON.
Yes, the fires are really really bad, but factor in no human intervention and it would be a totally different fire count this season.
The US has stats of 85% fires caused by humans. Australian Institute of Crime only has 6% of fires starting by natural causes, add reignition spots at 5% and you only have 11% of all fires starting by some form of natural cause. That leaves 89% of fires started by humans.
60 odd people have been charged so far in nsw (The Australian), Arthur Chrenkoff puts that number at 200+ as being involved in starting fires, how many have they missed or not been caught?
Don't know numbers for Vic or SA but they would be in the same boat as having ARSONISTS posing as community members.
So we don't have a fire problem, we have an arson problem and it's time something was done about it.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:52pm

100% scary to think people light some of these fires,

IMHO it's also not far fetched to suggest some of these fires could have even been started by people with extremely radical views and agendas such as Extortion rebellion members, they have said they will do anything to get their view out there and put pressure on government, if they are willing to try to shut down cities, glue themselves to roads, lock them selves in specially designed things, hang off bridges and all other kind of BS

Can we realistically say they wouldn't go that far?..you would hope not...but i wouldn't write it totally off.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:46pm

Indo...you really are going off the deep end, mate.

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:53pm

Let's face it Stu some are complete nutters, you can never say never.

Some of these people are extremist when people get heavily driven by ideologies a percentage of people can be driven to do crazy and extreme things that they would overwise not do.

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:02pm

Extinction Rebellion starting the fires? You really have entered the evidence-free zone indo dreaming. While you are there, can you tell us your opinion about Barack Obama's country of birth?

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:11pm

Barack Obama's country of birth is USA.

Don't make me out to be a conspiracy theorist, the earth is round 9/11 was not an inside job, chemtrails are BS, i even believe man is highly likely having some influence on climate.

Like it not Vic extremist do extreme things, be it religious extremist, white extremist, political extremist etc

We know some of these people are extremist, they have proven this with extreme actions and unrealistic demands, you and I don't know exactly what is inside some of these peoples heads.

Only takes one nutter with one lighter or matches to start a fire.

We would all hope it would never happen, but we still need to be realistic that in the world we live in, it's a possibility.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:05pm

Indo....mate...you've got those warriors of hard conservatism and free markets, the Young Liberals, now sitting further to the left of you.

You're even calling them liars.

You blindly agree with every single thing Smoko does, yet you also agree that if it was Bill Shorten you'd be complaining, and you fail to see the hypocrisy in that.

Driven by ideology?

You need to take some advice from HG Nelson and spend some time in the room of mirrors.

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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:47pm

You're a maniac Indo.

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Lottolonglong commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:07pm

I've got LWNJ telling me these fires are started by govt for proposed high speed rail lines being put in!!!! Face palm

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Nigeisblessed commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:08pm

Haha, yes I had that spoken to me before as well. I'm okay with people having their conspiracy theory but that one was a classic.

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:15pm

ha ha..ive had friends share this fires to clear way for fast rail or something BS on social media too, lots of people actually believe it, now thats a conspiracy theory.

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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:47pm

No.

There have always been arsonists, they just haven't all multiplied this year. We've got dry lightning starting fires in inaccessible wilderness.

Why is it so bad this year.. again, climate change, less rainfall year on year, hotter temperatures, not being able to hazard reduction burn and lowest soil mositure content levels on record for a low of places.

This means any fire that starts has raidly spread and got out of control.

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uncle_leroy commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:04pm

If they don't flick the match, there is no fire, no houses burnt, all the bush just sits there as is, dry with below average rainfall, but it's not on fire.
Arsonists are a big cause of this problem. Facts don't lie. Australian Institute of Crime data, only 6% of bushfires are natural causes (which included lightning) and 5 % reignition of existing fires. Take out arson/human intervention in straight away 89% less fires.

Craig's picture
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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:08pm

This is not the point.

uncle_leroy's picture
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uncle_leroy commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:21pm

So if there is a way of reducing fire impact by 89% then we should ignore it?
I get your point, the bush is dry, largescale fire that can't be stopped, but elephant in the room, no spark, no fire, just dry bush sitting there waiting for it to rain.

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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:26pm

They do try and mitigate for this.

Closing national parks, having police checks on arsonists and also total fire bans and for machinery operation on danger days.

This is not helpful to the discussion IMO.

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:43pm

ha ha thank you guys this run of comments between you too is gold, especially Craigs two replies.

"it's not the point"

"This is not helpful to the discussion IMO"

You couldn't script these exchanges, obviously you have good points Uncle.

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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:49pm

Kidding right?

There are lots of ingredients to the current shit storm.

There's always been arson, there's always been hot, dry summers and fires, but why is it getting worse and worse.. Climate change. Simple.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:53pm

Yeah Indo, I'm sure ex-RFS chiefs Phil Koperberg and Greg Mullins forgot all about arson when they said climate change was making the seasons more lethal.

Probably never encountered it before, eh?

Pass 'em the liquid paper will ya?

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:36pm

13% are deliberately lit.

And it doesn't change the fact that a deliberately lit fire in a wetter area, won't take hold like a deliberately lit fire on the back end of climate change-effected environment.

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uncle_leroy commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:01pm

Deliberate 13% (people charged for the offence)
Suspicious 37% (people not charged for the offence)
Accidental 35% (backpacker campfires left burning, bloke using grinder in dry grass on total fireban day, in otherwords human stupidity)
Other 4%
Natural 6%
Reignition 5%
That's a fair percentage of human intervention and something not being spoken about is all I'm saying

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:06pm

Yeah, fair enough. Though it was taken into account by ex-RFS chiefs such as Phil Koperberg and Greg Mullins (and others, cant recall names) earlier this year when they said seasons are getting more lethal due to climate change.

These are heads of fire departments. Their opinions cannot and should not be discounted as just another anonymous forum poster. Arson is an issue, acknowledged, but people using it to gaslight the influence of climate change should listen to people who know more about the bush than them.

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frog commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:57pm

But if we get no fires for say a few decades in many areas by magically stopping fire bugs, the eventual fires that come through whatever cause will be massive due to fuel build up. Australia has to learn to live with / survive/ manage periodic large scale fires.

Frogg

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garyg1412 commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 3:42pm

Talking about arsonists found this in an ABC article I just read about animals and bushfires.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/animals-have-an-astounding-resp...
"Birds of prey arrive quickly at fires. Several species in northern Australia have been observed intentionally spreading fires by transporting burning sticks in their talons or beaks."

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GuySmiley commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:42pm

I really can't believe how there is so much argument around this issue. I've just been toasted machine-gun style by a shop-keeper taking my money for goods. There was real anger in her voice, it's all the greenies fault, no wait its the councils fault no allowing back burning, it's so unfair to blame the PM, he has nothing to do with it she rattled off. I didn't bother engaging with herm what is the point. I guess we have all been there before being schooled on the real facts from the right's butt-gravy media. My wife and I have lost friends over this sort of shit, I guess we really are a divided country. As someone said divide and rule.

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Mcface commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:47pm

People arent blaming scomo for global warming as such. Most people are hating on Scomo because of his abysmal leadership during the fires, the latest move being the 3000 reservists deployed much later than they should have been and without any consultation with the RFS, the incompetence and selfishness is astounding.

Thanks to Vic local and the swellnet crew for having the patience to rebut some of the misinformation spreading around. I certainly don't have the patience for it.

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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:56pm

This is so so stupid.

The similarities between the lack of tightening of the gun laws and reform after each massacre in the US and our current situation in Australia is glaringly obvious.

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D-Rex commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 12:59pm

Indo is spot-on. Australia has huge solar panel uptake and wind farms popping-up everywhere but 'we're not doing enough'? Excuse me? Maybe a wind tower in each backyard is the way to go (they only cost $4m each - but, who cares if it saves us from extinction)? BTW I would have thought getting 3000 extra hands would be welcomed but what do I know?

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etarip commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:01pm

Clearly sweet fuck all. Thanks for asking.

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A Salty Dog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:07pm

While waiting for Parliament to resume, it is an opportune time for the LNP to reassess their stance on Climate Change and acknowledge it’s role in the current bushfire crisis and stop blaming the greens and others for everything that has happened.

Once they’ve dragged themselves into the 21st Century, the first item on the agenda in Parliament should be an inquiry into the fires.

Fire services have repeatedly stated the period for controlled hazard reduction burns is diminishing to the point where safety of people and property cannot be guaranteed. A lack of fulltime qualified staff to implement these burns is a serious concern. Some burns have gotten out of control with devastating results. Consequently, fuel loads have increased and with a combination of extended periods of low rainfall, high temperatures and strong winds, the inevitable has happened.

They could start with implementing some of the points raised in the ALP Policy. Retro fit decommissioned military aircraft (helicopters and fixed wing) as water bombers and establish a national team of firefighters to conduct hazard reduction burns. To minimise risk, every burn should have water bombers on standby should the burn become uncontrollable from the ground. Also establish a plan of implementation to burn high risk areas near population centres as a priority.

If we can afford $50 billion on submarines we won’t see of at least 15 years we should be able to find $2 billion or so to fund a national fire program.

In regard to fuel loads, all the research seems to concentrate on forest floor litter which can be as high as 15 tonnes per hectare, yet I suspect that in any forest the total amount of combustible material would be substantially higher. I recall the Black Saturday fires in Victoria being referred to as Crown fires driven by strong winds, which were ultimately unstoppable. Hazard reduction is just that, reduction, it will not completely eliminate the risk.

With a long-term warming trend and weather events such as the SSW, negative SAM, late monsoon etc, combining to form the ideal conditions for fire, I am grateful that nature decided an El Nino was not going to happen.

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gray commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:16pm

Strongly agree with everything you've written here, very well put ASD.

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vicco11 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:10pm

This is a great article for those that haven't read it. Maybe Kelly should take some time to read it too.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-20/hazard-reduction-burns-bushfires/...

"Experts emphasised that in extreme and catastrophic fire conditions, the surface fuel available for burning makes next to no difference to the level of a fire's intensity.

University of Melbourne associate professor Trent Penman, who studies bushfire behaviour,told Fact Check: "Prescribed burning effectiveness decreases with [increasing] FFDI; when you exceed an FFDI of about 50, you switch from fuel-dominated to a weather-dominated fire.

"At this point, while fuel has a small effect, it is overwhelmed by the weather."

Professor Bradstock agreed, pointing to the example of Victoria's Black Saturday bushfires in 2009 that claimed the lives of 173 people.

His team studied the aftermath of the fires which were associated with an FFDI of well above 100.

They found that even in the areas where fuel had been treated with planned burns less than five years prior, there was no measurable effect on the intensity of the fires.

"At a level where we would have expected the fire intensity to be reduced to suppressible levels, we essentially found no effect," he told Fact Check.

"It's almost like a turbo-charging effect, when you have such incredibly high temperatures and very high winds that you only need a negligible amount of fuel to produce a fire intensity that is not suppressible."

The University of Tasmania's Professor Bowman said that in catastrophic conditions, such as those prevailing in the current Queensland and NSW bushfires, all "organic matter is going to burn".

"There's so much heat and strong winds that the fire is able to travel across landscapes regardless of whether they've been burnt previously. It doesn't affect the [fire] behaviour."

"[E]ven if you can treat everything at a maximum level, it's still not going to give you the benefit under catastrophic fire weather conditions."

Professor Bradstock likened the effect of prescribed burns on fire intensity to a sliding scale.

"The window of effectiveness essentially narrows down to a point where it essentially disappears," he told Fact Check."

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sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:39pm

that's all no doubt perfectly true and reasonable, but it overlooks what makes it easy to start an initial fire that's needed to get that going, and that's a nice crispy untidy bush everywhere, unruly and overgrown

gotta love a tidy bush

its a good point he makes though because it shows that you can burn anything if it's hot enough. and that's the realm of temps. we are talking about in these fires

arguably as a result of climate change

it really is the classic perfect storm scenario, not either/or

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Vijay commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:11pm

Whether we agree or disagree with each other I think we can all admit these fires are horrific and are effecting so many. Maybe instead of arguing with each other online we should rally together as a community and help out the victims of this natural disaster.
Whatever side of the fence we stand Its pretty clear we aren’t going to convince each other that what we believe is right.
The blame game can come later. Right now thousands of people and millions of animals are in desperate need of help.

I know I posted before contradicting what I’ve just said but it’s hard not to become frustrated. The more I think about it though the more I realise that getting frustrated and angry is not going to help anyone.

Regardless of how we believe these fires have started they are here and we need to work together as a whole to get help the recovery efforts.

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:20pm

Virtually every post by the climate change denialists on this thread contains multiple statements that are complete bullshit. It's culminated in Indo Dreaming suggesting Extinction Rebellion have started fires that have killed around a billion animals.
It's completely nuts, and represents how the country is totally divided along educational and factual lines. Yes we are all entitled to our own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
When you spread bullshit, you're going to get exposed for being a fraud.
That's why Smoko is copping so much abuse. His BS and lack of action is catching up to him.
There's two types of people in Australia: people who listen to scientists and have a grounding in reality, or those who just believe their own bullshit and belittle experts.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:43pm

"There's two types of people in Australia: people who listen to scientists and have a grounding in reality, or those who just believe their own bullshit and belittle experts"

Um dude yesterday above i posted links from a scientist who studies fire management in the very region these fire now burn, he warned us this would happen.

And please stop twisting my words, ive only put the ER thing out there as a possibility based on what we have seen and heard from them, you can not 100% write off the possibility.

BTW. Im not a climate denier, I'm a climate skeptic, which means i believe it's highly likely man is having an influence on the climate through carbon emissions, but with that brings negative and positives not just all negatives and i keep an open mind to the fact that climate science is very complex and what we know in the scheme of things limited, so i don't just label or swallow the belief that everything that happens in the world today is caused by climate change, just like things in the past weren't automatically put down to one thing, but in most cases a combination of factors.

Anyway lets keep this peaceful and civil.

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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:55pm

Climate change isn't all negatives as you've said, it's positives as well, more rainfall to areas etc.

It's change for most locations, it's more radical and unpredictable weather and storms affecting lives, food, way of life etc.

But believing the above, you accept climate change.

Believing there are positives doesn't make you a sceptic (as you've labelled yourself), dismissing the science laid out clearly in front does though.

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:32pm

I will give you a better example that we can all grasp.

Will climate change provide better or worst surfing conditions?

I bet we can agree on the answer, this will depend on where you live, some areas will most likely get worse conditions on average some places will get better conditions on average.

There is no set blanket statement, like you cant say, everywhere on average will get better conditions or everywhere on average will get worst conditions.

Agree?

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Craig commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:39pm

I'm in total agreement with that as I wrote above.

But for Australia as a whole it's generally worse off regarding where our current food belts/farms sit, decrease in rainfall for the longterm and increased temperatures.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:01pm

"A" scientist.

One. Scientist.

As someone said on here yesterday, may have been Vic Local, can't recall, but there was a good deal of swearing so it probably was him....there is no scientific theory that has 100% consensus, that's not how science works.

But when a majority do then that's where science travels too.

And there is simply no question about majority siding on matters of AGW. And over the last few days I've read a great many articles from scientists who study fires and they dont agree with David Packham.

But people such as yourself with rusted on idelogies will choose those lone outliers and cry "but science!"

I honestly think it's worth mulling that matter over in your head.

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:18pm

Spot on Stunet. Indo dreaming pointed to one scientist as proof he was right. The scientist he pointed too has virtually no peer support. Indo Dreaming also conveniently ignores all the other scientists who have openly called "bullshit" on people who say climate change isn't playing a role in the current fire emergency.
On another matter, I found a scientist (on google) who works for a tobacco company. He says smoking doesn't cause lung cancer so I will perfectly fine if I smoke 40 a day. Now where's my pipe?

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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philosurphizing... commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:22pm

I wonder if Kelly has ever heard of Pyrocumulus cloud.
I know I had not until I came across it here on Swellnet a few weeks ago.
Still trying to get my head around how powerful and violent this type of firestorm/weather event is.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6566094/fire-generated-thundersto...
Here is a link to a story about a plane flying to Canberra that went through one.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-05/nsw-vic-fire-generated-thundersto...
One of the quotes....."They said it just did not come up on the radar at all.
"One minute we were in daylight, the next, it was midnight."

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:27pm

A key small business lobby group has urged any climate change sceptics on the Coalition frontbench to quit their ministries, arguing they stymied preparations for this bushfire season.

The Council of Small Business Organisations Australia (COSBOA) said its members who have been affected by the fires, either directly or indirectly, are generally disappointed with the Federal Government's handling of the crisis.

"What I'm hearing from my members is the fact that there should have been better preparation for what was predicted by many to be very bad bushfires, worse than normal," said COSBOA's chief executive Peter Strong.

"The preparation at the state level, I think, was very good. But at the federal level, there are people within Government who firmly believe there is no such thing as climate change or that human beings don't have an impact upon it, and they are adamant that no extra work or extra effort should ever happen because they don't believe in climate change.

No doubt the deniers here will think these small business communists are patsies for the UN-led great conspiracy etc etc etc and Smoko has really done all he can.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-06/climate-change-deniers-hinder-fire-response-says-business-group/11843530

 

EDIT: More from the communists:

"That's where the disappointment is within my membership, and we want to hear from those climate change deniers in the Government ranks that they will now shut up, they will go and sit at the backbench where they belong and they will not interfere in developing processes to respond to this situation."

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Pops commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:29pm

I'm going to guess that there's got to be at least a few firefighters (paid or volunteers) on here. Hopefully one of them can answer this.
I've seen a number of fundraising appeals and the like on social media over the past week, but none of them seem to be backed by the RFS (or any other state's version). So, how can we best support the firies? And what can we do for the victims?

He who hesitates is lost

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:37pm

Hey Pops,

See link at bottom of article.

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thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:38pm
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Pops commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:40pm

Thanks gents.

He who hesitates is lost

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D-Rex commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:46pm

So stu, the question you raise is, why did the fires start and become so intense? The communists you refer to say 'a lack of preparation at federal level' - meaning? To suggest (more) CC 'action' (whatever that may be) is part of this 'preparation' is to draw an extremely long bow. Nice try though.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 1:49pm

Not my words, mate.

Just those of the Young Liberals, former Liberal heavy hitters such as Julie Bishop, an increasingly large core of National party voters, and now small business associations.

They all want climate action.

People like you and Indo just want more culture war.

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peterb commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:01pm

The only people who could have taught us anything about avoiding bushfires of this immensity were massacred indiscriminately not long after Captain Cook planted his flag.

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lisa.van-der-velde commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:14pm

I agree. So much knowledge lost about our Country when we lost our link to our people before us. The truth is we are learning again the ways of the bush and the changing climate. But fellas no point adding any further anger to this fire. We are currently surrounded by it and learning to live with it down here on the Far South Coast Of NSW. Chill. Its been terrifying we dont need anger as we all feel fried like that Image (joey) shown by Kelley.

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adam12 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:19pm

VicLocal, I have in the past thought unfavorably of you and some of your commentary. I have even had a go at you at times. I have changed my mind about you now. We actually think alike on this important issue and I commend you for your comments and effort to dispel the idiotic untruths being disseminated by these fucking idiot climate change deniers. I promise next time I take off at Winky I will look left.

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:22pm

Peace at last !!!

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:12pm

That was a beautiful moment.

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Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:14pm

Probably a good thing Gary G isn't here because it may get weird.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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TAB commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:23pm

Indo Dreaming you are just trolling to suggest Extinction Rebellion could be starting some of these fires, it makes all your contributions fairly farcical when you come up with such extreme, radical far right views.

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sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 2:54pm

it's not that crazy a thought

you may not like his example but it's a wacky radical world we're living in

https://amp.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/islam-group-urges-forest-fire-...

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sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:03pm

the fire starters issue really needs to be talked about, clearly the media doesn't due to fear of copy cats or whatever...

but those numbers are alarming. that's not just kids messing about

I'm not saying it is groups, I think it's more the weirdos living among us

the lone operators, which in a way is even scarier

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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:17pm

Dude it's neither a left our right view to suggest that people who are willing to do extreme things like try to lock down cities or glue themselves to roads and build these crazy things that trap them to roads etc would also not do other more extreme things.

Generally speaking extreme actions often lead to more extreme actions, and rarely to less extreme actions, without knowing what is inside individuals heads it impossible to know how far people can go for a belief or cause.

That said I'm not saying it has happened, only that it's a possibility and im not at all saying if it ever happened it would be a group thing, but more a crazy individual thing.

I can understand people being uncomfortable with the idea, but I'm sure it's one that authority's that look into arsonist etc would have talked about.

BTW. Sypkan i did see that one on social media IMHO its also a real possibility that could also happen one day, we already know the extremes radical religion have gone too, personally i find it really scary because to me it makes so much sense, why bomb or do something else when they could just lite a fire with little chance of being caught.

Trolling?...personally id like to think of it more as pushing the limits of discussion in a punk like spirit.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:28pm

Thing is Indo, what arch conservatives such as yourself always miss in the finger-pointing, is that your kind are every bit as bad.

Terrorism in America. Big issue. The right wingers give max airtime to the threat of the evil mustachioed Muslims shooting up innocent women and children then setting off dirty bombs.

Yet there's been way more instances - inordinately more - from right wing domestic terrorists.

But you wont read that on Breitbart.

Dont start muddying the waters with your conservative bias till you have evidence - either side can fly false flags.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:48pm

Sorry i don't identify as conservative, i hate that word im not conservative please refer to me as moderate right wing.

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:55pm

Ha ha...yeah right. 

When even the Young Liberals are calling out Smoko, plus Piers Morgan, and Julie Bishop, not to mention biz associations, yet you defend all of his actions, every last one of them, then call yourself what you want but you're a hard conservative.

No shame. The Young Liberals aspire to that.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:00pm

It's 2020 i get to choose what my label is, not you and i don't identify as a conservative

You guys made this new rule not us.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:02pm

Made what rule?

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:59pm

You can choose whatever label you want indo-dreaming, but when you push the conspiracy theory that Extinction Rebellion could be behind the fires, then I will use the label "right wing nutter" when describing you.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:05pm

jeez, there's some dispiriting and idiotic commentary on here.

probably some budding Einsteins who should have finished high school science before they sound off about the physics of bushfires.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:11pm

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:13pm

Arsonists; yep they are there.

As I said earlier there have been two major bushfires here in the last 7 years.

The first happened from a dry lightning strike...I never thought something like that could happen on the coast but it did.

Tinder dry bush from a (another) failed summer wet season and up she went.

3 years later and with the whole area of (peat) heath having burnt previously no-one was expecting another bushfire.
This time again, tinder dry from no rain and hot and windy a campfire from people camping up near the beach got into the bush.

Again, the heath and peat caught fire and burnt for weeks.....it was a backburn attempt from the RFS that got out of control and jumped the road that actually threatened houses.

So arson, yes.

But also, lightning strikes, including ones from the fire storms.
People welding, brushcutting, ciggies out the window.....anything that can create a spark can set one off.
As well as ember attack and spot fires from pre-existing fires, as happened for much of the Clarence and Richmond valley fires.

How they start is one factor, but turning into out of control, unfightable conflagrations is a whole nother one.

For those geniuses who think fire = fuel, + oxygen + ignition.

Take a piece of paper. There's your flammable fuel.

Now put it out in the rain and try and light it.

bongsalot's picture
bongsalot's picture
bongsalot commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:37pm

here is a conspiracy for ya(not so much to do with climate change).
The last Insiders of 2019 on ABC there was a last comment about the medias FOI laws and protection of whistle blowers. The comment was while it was a battle the media were willing to keep up the thought was in the publics eye it had no hope of achieving because the public hate journo's and journalistic trash.
The thought was mentioned this battle was to be continued behind closed doors in the not so open/public forums, kind of guerilla battle I think was mentioned.
Fast foward to the these fires and if you have read or watched any social media tv etc..the scomo bashing is quite unabating..9Queensland seem to be particularly vicious with their headlines articles..lots of actual fire news and info is getting lost in the scummo, smoko, scomo rhetoric. Read any of peoples comments and they arent worried about peoples houses, lives, towns nearly every comment is about how much of a useless prick the PM is.
Never have I realised the political hatred/divide more than what has been on SM the last few days and all driven by the media esp..9queensland, 9 in general..karl stefanovic(9puppet).. ABC, The Advertiser in SA just from the one's I have scrolled..
I cant help but think back to the people on that program and the comments that were made and the unabating political assination of it all.
Aussies turning on aussies for and against and for what?
Too much of a stretch?

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:50pm

All driven by the media?

The media didn't hand him a lump of coal to take into parliament.
The media didn't drive him to Hawaii.
The media could've driven him to the COAG meeting but he rejected it.
Same a meeting with ex-RFS chiefs.
Then after doing 5/8 of fuck all he himself used the media to make an ill-advised ad.

You've got a theory, that's great, but perhaps you need to open your mind to another hypothesis.

Scott Morrison is a dud.

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:34pm

Whiteshoe councils locked out residents rights (Police!)
newscorp block all corrupt Mayor's critics ($25 letter)
newscorp block all ALP State plans ($25 view tax)
Ended the truth serum booster shots in Qld ($25 a tidbit)
Every City & town has now shut down ($25 just to see)

newscorp instead runs 24/7 punch smoko in the head
Millions direct their anger towards only person on Oz News.
Newscorp are roasting & milking the PM's carcass
It's what they do best...spin > (evil / stupid / hero / bully / stupid)

Sure! Ok! Heartless Green Army did twist Rupert's arm.

stanfrance's picture
stanfrance's picture
stanfrance commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:26pm

Here's something for you on your main man Scomo bonghead, enjoy

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2018/november/1540990800/sean-kelly/...

Stan France

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:39pm

Big shout out as well to Vic Local, Craig, Ben, Stu and others with some solid facts and good reading plus staying the line.

The fuel load thing is an issue one of many but if its the only issue why don't we get wild fires in winter............might it be some thing to do with climate?

Might it be some thing to do with moisture levels?

mowgli's picture
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mowgli commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 3:59pm

4 page briefer on relationship between bushfires and climate change in Australia from the National Environmental Science Programme (mainly CSIRO and BOM).

http://nespclimate.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/A4_4pp_brochure_NES...

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

bongsalot's picture
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bongsalot commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:00pm

@stunet, my point exactly..ALL the politicians, state and fed have been on holidays..some still are, have we heard anything..anything about them?
Yet scomo is the medias kicking bag because he is our leader?
All the political fighting, me personally, I am over it..makes me mad thats all anyone is talking about!
Do you know the roads from Norsemann to Penong are all closed? have been for weeks and worse case scenario could be another 3weeks?
400,000 hectares burnt, Esperance is choka block, people are running out of supllies in that area..food trucks are stuck, food going rotten in trucks, no feed for stations getting through, where is that in the media? They rather a he said/ she said argument between gladys and scomo? cmon man

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:10pm

There's been a bit of coverage about ministers being on holiday:

"NSW Emergency Services Minister David Elliott heads off on European holiday as bushfire crisis continues"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-27/nsw-emergency-services-david-elli...

"Defence minister tweeted bushfire updates while holidaying in Bali"
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2020/01/05/linda-reynolds-bali-...

As for the WA fires:

Today: "Nullarbor evacuation underway after WA fires on Eyre Highway left hundreds stranded"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-06/nullarbor-evacuation-underway-aft...

Three days ago: "Bushfires cutting off Nullarbor likely to cost millions and cause food shortages in Perth"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-03/nullarbor-road-closures-to-last-f...

Four days ago: "Nullarbor's Eyre and Coolgardie-Esperance highways close again causing travel chaos, tempers to flare"
​​​​​​​https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-01/road-closures-cause-nullarbor-tra...

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:17pm

How's the first paragraph in the last article link (above):

A remote roadhouse on the Nullarbor has run out of toilet paper and is running low on beer and even more essential food items as bushfires cause chaos for truck drivers and holidaymakers travelling between Western Australia and South Australia.

Priorites!

Bum rub and beer. Oh, and "more essential food items".

mowgli's picture
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mowgli commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:07pm

It’s good to see business associations and Nationals voters finally calling from action. Though the irony that they’re the ones yelling for action now when they’ve (i.e. Nationals voters, and statistically speaking many business owners) repeatedly voted for political parties that not only worked actively (often vehemently so) against effective action, but actively perpetrated the lies and mistruths that perpetuated the opposition (at worst) and confusion (at best) amongst large swathes of the general public. I try to tell myself “better late than never”, but it’s a tough pill to swallow that one. The only difference between 2019 and 2013 (and 2011, and 2007, and 1997) is the scenarios forecast back then have come true (and a bit earlier than actually anticipated). But of course as the rule goes, some of us scream bloody murder when a proposal is put forward to fix the bridge at risk of collapse, until it’s too late collapsed and killed someone.

And before the usual rabble try to rip my face off, yes, Australia’s contribution to global emissions is small on % terms…but we’re still near the top (15th) when taking into account there are 196 other countries out there, and even more so given our most valuable export is so polluting. Those sorts of arguments also ignore our status as a mid-level global player, a member of the G20, have one of the highest standards of living, have a commodity dependent export economy, have the most successful economy by some measures, and we have some very strong relationships with actual global powerbrokers. All of that is to say – yes we have a small footprint relevant to China and the US, but we can have a massive impact because where Australia leads, others will follow. We’ve seen it before even very recently with plain packaging on cigarette packets, we went first and then other OECD nations began copying. Gun laws anyone?

But alas, not only are we not carrying our weight, we’ve actively sought to undermine global efforts. So despite being ranked 15th in the world for GHG emissions, Australia DOES have a huge global impact, unfortunately it’s been the wrong kind.

Some useful sources of info here (hopefully some of the poo poo crowd actually take a peak). In particular the second one is very telling (despite what the vegans will tell ya), if we just switch to clean energy, hey presto we’re pretty much there! Ahhhh if only...energy indepenence, no black lung, no lead poisoning, far less environmental impact overall, more jobs (up to 5 times the jobs created if using wind power to generate energy equivalent of Carmichael Mine output), cleaner air, no heavy metals, no need for alliances with the House of Saud....if only..

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

https://www.wri.org/blog/2017/04/interactive-chart-explains-worlds-top-1...

https://www.climate-change-performance-index.org/sites/default/files/doc...

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:01pm

There is two ways to look at things overall emissions globally or per capita.

Our overall emissions are just over 1% of world emissions, which is obviously a drop in the ocean for example China is about 29% or just below one third of the words emissions.

Looking at things this way, we are obviously close to irrelevant in the conversation, which doesn't mean we don't do anything to reduce emissions but just means we need to be sensible and find a balance between reduction and keeping economy ticking over, which we are doing.

Or you can look at emissions per capita which people love to do because it makes us look worst, obviously developed countries have higher emissions, and then we get pushed to the top of the list because rightly or wrongly we never invested in carbon free energy in Nuclear and large amounts of Hyrdo like a large amount of other developed countries.

Anyway if you want to look at things per capita and knowing energy is the main area of emissions.

Well facts are:

Australia is leading the world per capita in uptake of household solar and per capita last few years rate of uptake of renewables has been two to three time faster than any country world wide.

So what is your accepted pass mark where our action is enough compared to other countries?

stanfrance's picture
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stanfrance commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:24pm

Indo, picture yourself as a 12 year old....future ahead of you rather than being middle age and on the downward spiral. Consider resource scarcity, changing environments, increasing competition, crazy wildfires, failing barrier reefs and food systems, the insular walls of an increasingly hot city or perhaps the millions of struggling people surrounding you in your 3rd world country. What do you think would be appropriate action? Take your own selfishness out of it for a second.

Stan France

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:41pm

@Stan You have to be realistic making drastic change for the sake of looking good on some statics wont change anything global, but will only send our economy into recession.

The easiest way to actually reduce emissions would be to cut our immigration rate from 1.7% of population to something similar to UK and USA at 0.6%
but how do you do that without sending the economy into recession?

One of our current problems areas in emissions is our gas industry emissions are rising, countries are swapping coal for gas and we are supplying and the emissions from this industry is quite high.

Do we just say no go away, you cant have our gas?

teanorris's picture
teanorris's picture
teanorris commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:43pm

So basically status quo, we just keep keeping on. No solutions there Indo

mowgli's picture
mowgli's picture
mowgli commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:23pm

Oh man, there's actually a third way that is actually the fairest way to do it....take into account historical emissions. CO2 doesn't just disappear ya know (apologies if you did). It stays up there for a long time. The additional heat taken up by the oceans takes an even bloody longer time to dissipate (1000 years if I recall correctly). The only fair way to rank all nations is based on their historical, cumulative emissions going back to circa 1880 (industrial revolution kicked into gear). Comparing nation-level emissions by annual totals only makes no sense.

A rapidly developing nation that may have only really started pumping it out in the last 20 years looks bad when comparing their 2019 emissions with ours, but emissions have been going up for a long time. It's the OECD nations most responsible for that.

HOWEVER, in answer to your quest - Simple! Every nation has to reduce their annual emissions by the requisite 45% by 2030. That's the truly only objective way to do it. Every other approach is about weasling out of it and shifting responsibility to others. Australia only good for 1%? Sure, let's get to half that.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 4:38pm

Here is a positive story, potentially:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/it-s-miraculous-owners-say-cultural-...

a smaller, more gentle form of burning, using much older wisdom. And it seems to have worked!

quokka's picture
quokka's picture
quokka commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:42pm

Totally agree with this "Mr Barber says Aboriginal people should be better resourced to lead the implementation of cultural burning across NSW and Australia, alongside existing fire authorities."
I'm not a PC dogooder Aboriginal lover, far from it, but the Aboriginies have been doing this for thousands of years, can't hurt to give it a shot...again.
All I know is that last year at exactly the same time of year I was on a family holiday driving from Perth to Syndey and back, returning via the South Coast and Eastern Vic, through a lot of the areas now burning or burnt. It rained for days on end in numerous places we visited on the South Coast. Not sure what that says about climate change...

Our sympathies go out to all affected by the devastation.

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:31pm

WSL / Kelly Slater's (frightfully real) proposed water plan for Oz fire ravaged towns.

Readers note this drought ravaged region has suffered 4 fires this season...

Proposed / bribed Coolum Surf Ranch requires 350ML (million litres) of fresh water.
The fresh water is being sourced from Maroochy River Blue Heart Conservation Park

2 x 68ML = WSL Lemoore surf ranch...Wastes 1.14ML of water per day

350ML = WSL Coolum wave pool + canals Wastes 2.57ML day (*Adjust for Climate)

(100L per person/day)
3,500,000 / Daily supply = (Adelaide + Brisbane) combined
500,000 / Weekly supply = Gold Coast / Canberra / Newcastle
112,903 / Monthly supply = Darwin / Bendigo / Launceston
38,888 / Summer supply = Caloundra / Orange / Shepperton
9,589 / Yearly supply = Nambour / Grafton / Dalby / Broadmeadows

Estimated Coolum Ranch (Daily) Spill + Evaporation modelled of current US Ranch...
2.57ML / Daily supply = Coffs Harbour / Alice Springs / Freemantle

WSL Surfer needs the whole Towns summer water supply just to fill his tub.
Then sucks neighbouring Oz Town's daily water supply just to go for a surf.
Could've put out all 4 local fires just with Kelly's daily dip.

Once again we Qldurrz must apologize for the bribes / corruption / greed!
Qldurrz can't carry on commenting without having to rip someone's head off.
Oz crew can decide his fate....he's all yours.

ilikelamb's picture
ilikelamb's picture
ilikelamb commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:13pm

I’m kind of late to this party but I hope you take time to read the story in the link from a Wytabila RFS member from a few months ago which goes into some basic science and how massive amounts of hazard reduction and previous burns made no difference when it all burnt again.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156474448056821&id=601681820

Also video link of him responding to someone about not enough preventative burning being done.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156484835306821&id=601681820

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:45pm

Great share.

Any of you keyboard warriors need me to drive you to his place so you can tell him your expert opinion on fuel load, I’m available.

Pussies......

Wake the fuck up

D-Rex's picture
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D-Rex commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:38pm

A real problem that me, indo, sypkan and others of a similar viewpoint have is the vitriolic approaches from lefties like Vic, adam12, stu, etc. The hate-filled, anti-Liberal, anti-Murdoch, hysterical and self-righteous tone of your posts is NEVER going to persuade us of your views. Linking bushfires to guns, terrorism and the like just makes us distance ourselves further from your position. Are you really saying that if the Red Witch or Elmer Fudd were still PM, these fires wouldn't have occurred? Get a grip on reality ferchrissakes.

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:46pm

"...the vitriolic approaches from lefties like Vic, adam12, stu, etc"

vitriolic adjective /ˌvɪtrɪˈɒlɪk/ filled with bitter criticism or malice

"Are you really saying that if the Red Witch or Elmer Fudd were still PM..."

C'mon mate, in the same post?

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:22pm

No mate, of course the fires would have still happened. The solution is going to take generations, let’s say 50-100 years, to really fix this nightmare, we want to get the job started ASAP because every year we wait the repair time is exponential.

Get a grip on reality

Your world is so small dude. I’m sorry about that. (Insult intended)

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:44pm

Please Blowin, Indo, watch that video and see what catastrophic bushfires do, even when there is NO or very little fuel.

as has been the case when bushfires returned to previously burned ground during "firestorms".

Vic Local's picture
Vic Local's picture
Vic Local commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 5:49pm

This fire crisis has completely and utterly destroyed the government's credibility. There's an endless stream of reports and scientific papers, dating back decades, warning about more, and more intense, fires due to climate change.
These reports were ignored due to the LNP's blind pro fossil fuel ideology. The Abbott / Turnbull / Morrison government remained wilfully ignorant of the warnings because addressing the fire dangers would lead to difficult questions re climate change. So when the fires started, the country was not adequately resourced. This is especially the case in NSW after fire fighting funding and National Park budgets were cut. Australia had a very real shortage of fire fighting planes as many were still in the northern hemisphere fighting fires in California. Again the government was warned about this. That's the basis of so much anger.
To make matters worse, the LNP continues to lie about the country's greenhouse gas abatement policies. Our Greenhouse gas emissions have gone up every year under the LNP and people are justifiably angry about being bullshitted to about "meeting our Paris targets in a canter"
Only when the government started to lose political skin did they act on the crisis. The catalyst was Smoko's holiday. Since he returned from Hawaii, the Federal government response has been panicked, disjointed, and in some cases downright silly.
The fact that this government is already lining up who to blame for the fires, while refusing to change any of their woefully inadequate climate policies, should result in their downfall. Australians would have to be pretty fucking stupid to swallow the blame shifting and excuse making from a thoroughly incompetent and compromised federal government.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

Eugene Green's picture
Eugene Green's picture
Eugene Green commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:02pm

Everyone chill. All is going to be OK. Between now and the next election Labour will clearly lay out solutions to all our problems in a calm and rational way without resorting to condesension or personal insults. Discussions will include nuclear energy options and population/immigration numbers. Politcal correctness and pandering to minorities will be abandoned.
These new Labour policies will resonate with the qeneral population and they will get voted in with a landslide victory.
We will all enjoy our new utopia free from drought or bushfires.
Right?! Riiiiiiiiigggghhhhtttt......

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:51pm

You had me for a second :D

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:46pm

me too, I genuinely felt hope for a fleeting moment

then I remembered the trainwreck that is the labor party...

Pat Hollingworth's picture
Pat Hollingworth's picture
Pat Hollingworth commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:11pm

Me and my young family got caught up in the south coast fires on NYE. As were (quickly) packing up our campsite the sky went orange and brown, and ash started coming down. We evacuated to Merimbula and that's when I realised how easily the threads of society can be pulled apart i.e. crazy panic buying of fuel, nobody really knew what was going on because the situation was unfolding by the minute, couldn't see anything cause of how thick the smoke was. Anyway, my suggestion is that the PM needs to actually go through such an experience (rather than visiting a site after a fire has gone through) to get a full comprehension of what it's like, because it's fucken terrifying. To top it off four days later (on Saturday) we evacuated our house (in the Illawarra) because we live adjacent to bush land and 46 degree heat and strong westerly winds made the situation feel incredibly volatile.

Anyway, this is a useful (informed) link to read: https://npansw.org/2019/12/19/12-facts-about-fire-in-nsw/

And here's a wonderful, compassionate piece by Richard Flanagan: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/12/what-albanese-coul...

And my favourite response to Morrison's ridiculous advert on Saturday (when houses were burning and people and animals dying) from Ben Quilty: https://twitter.com/ScottMorrisonMP/status/1213330419044638722

i.e. "You've made an ad? Are you kidding? It hit 48.9 degrees in western Sydney today. Make an ad about that"

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:50pm

Obviously it's not an add, it a clip to inform the public of what is being done, because a huge amount of people just spin the line that nothing is being done, most people don't even understand that these things are state run, they just see someone post on FB that Scomo is doing nothing and then say the same to the next person they talk to things about, sadly that is just the world we live in now because lots of people dont follow official news sources just social media pages etc

Most people don't even know that in early December Scomo added an extra 11 million to the emergency fund and got army and airforce units involved among other things.

The liberal thing at the end is a legality that has to be on there for whatever party does it, if it was labor they would have had to add it too..

But looking at the source of your links its quite clear that im not going to change your mind.

A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:57pm

He could have issued a Press Release to all media outlets instead.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 11:55pm

no indod, that was a ad.

desperately made and distributed at the most inappropriate time

once an ad-man always an ad-man, the cunt cannot contain his tendency to market

and that is the most offensive thing about the autistic ad-man, shameless, insensitive and desperate

factotum's picture
factotum's picture
factotum commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:37pm

The comments! If they weren't about something so important and immediate, I would call them entertaining.

And tragically funny.

My fave:

"Sorry i don't identify as conservative, i hate that word im not conservative please refer to me as moderate right wing."

Good stuff V.I.

If something positive is to be gleaned from this issue on these threads, it's the absolute and irredeemable outing of our favourite right w(h)ingers on here as the weirdo meshuggenehs they've always been. Good work Vic, VB, Adam etc etc.

Anger is an energy.

Keep on keeping on.

And let the beer bingo commence...

Eugene Green's picture
Eugene Green's picture
Eugene Green commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:38pm

If the left has any solutions to our problems we would all love to hear them. Go right ahead...

factotum's picture
factotum's picture
factotum commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 6:48pm

What? Like acknowledging anthropogenic climate change is an actual thing for starters?

Greeny, your response didn't even get me a can.

Of friggin' Bush Chook!

Eugene Green's picture
Eugene Green's picture
Eugene Green commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:29pm

I already acknowledge the fact. Let’s say Scomo does too (he does). Now what?

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:27pm

Run?

but to where?

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 6:43am

Eugene, read Mowgli’s post at 7:43 below. Forget about right or left, stop standing in the way of what is the right thing to do. That’s the direction we need to go, let’s go there with Trump and Morrison I don’t care.

If you apposed this movement then I’m sorry but the half a billion burnt animals are on you

Nakiboi's picture
Nakiboi's picture
Nakiboi commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:55am

So it's my fault half a billion animals got cooked, yet if I believe in climate change im not responsible? This thread is fucking funny I can't believe there's grown adults that think like this.

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:23pm

Yes, equally shared with every other person world wide who actively suppressed the mitigation plan over the last 20-30 years.

Don’t you believe in the link between climate change and natural disasters?
What about the link between coal and climate change?
What about the link between which policy you vote for and which one you get?

It’s called taking responsibility for your actions.
What makes you think your actions don’t have consequences, I sure as hell know mine do

https://youtu.be/EDc-BI7eezU

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:59pm

Unfortunately, Shoredump , your link just revealed the depths of hypocrisy which will be plumbed when everyone starts the Climate Change Blame Game ( CCBG ) which will become the global pastime over the next decade.

The band in the video are pointing the finger at the 9-5 worker who wants a second car for their personal indulgence, whilst the band themselves seem to think that their plastic guitars , synthetic flannelet shirts and wide ranging touring habits are somehow acceptable uses of the planets resources.

Everyone is to blame and shit is going to get weird before it gets better.

The only way for 7 billion people to exist without continuously contributing to the deterioration of the planet is to all revert to Hunter gathering.....but even that would see the Earth denuded within a couple of months.

shoredump's picture
shoredump's picture
shoredump commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:22pm

We are all kids in a candy store Blowin. I’m aware of the reality of how it all plays out. Some want the shop left open, others want it closed so only the whole foods are available to them.
I’ve spent 30 years voting for a party that would likely shut down the very industry I’ve worked in.

And you’ve missed the tongue in cheek nature of their song. Obviously they are aware about their toys as well.
I just thought it was another suitable anthem to this years summer.

I’ve got a 42 yo mate who at 20 was getting a lift home with a friend who was speeding. He said “slow down” twice before they ended up in a telegraph pole.
My mate still hates the driver, and my mate still has to go to the gym daily to alleviate pain. Blame is warranted I’d say, but you guys say no, he didn’t mean to crash, all he did was be forewarned by someone more aware of the danger.
This is what’s happening on a world scale. Slow down, please.

I 100% agree with you that there is no real* solution, but fuck this I’m not going to even try bullshit. Can’t stand that attitude

*rapid world wide uptake of clean renewables and instant world wide population control ain’t going to happen

Nakiboi's picture
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Nakiboi commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:32pm

You're lucky that you can put climate change at the top of things you care about, you must live a great life, hopefully one day I can get there to. But right now like billions of other people around the world the climate is way down on my list of worries.

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ojackojacko commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:37pm

yeah mate. pacific islanders are about to completely lose their islands. towns in australia are being burned out of existence. you must lead a great life if you can afford to ignore climate change

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Nakiboi commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 12:31pm

Which islands?

ojackojacko's picture
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ojackojacko commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 2:56pm

a number of small islands have already gone under over recent years. in terms of nation states, i think kiribati, tuvalu, and the marshall islands are set to be first off the block (first into the sea).
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/05/764570478/we-need-support-pacific-islands...

data on rising levels here:
http://www.climatedata.info/impacts/sea-levels/pacific-islands/

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:00pm

Bushfire crisis: too many people are feeding outrage and ignoring facts

From https://thoughthub.com.au/2020/01/03/bushfire-crisis-too-many-people-are...

Right now we are seeing the best and worst of the Australian community in the midst of a devastating event. Rural firefighters should be commended for their bravery and indefatigable commitment to serving us all. Generous Australians are offering their homes to displaced people and donating what they can. State, federal and local governments are coordinating around the clock in response to this devastating and unprecedented disaster.

Yet, we are also seeing the worst of Australia. We are seeing a vicious campaign led by trolls on social media to target political opponents, namely Scott Morrison, public enemy number one.

Let’s look at some facts surrounding this crisis and try to cut through the hysteria being shared on social media.

FACT ONE – The Federal Government has been responding since November 8.

The federal defence department has been offering support and reinforcements since November 8. Every request from state governments has been promptly granted. Today, the ADF helped evacuate residents and visitors from Mallacoota. As David Crowe accurately reported in today’s Age: They have been refuelling aerial tankers, providing vehicles and drivers for search and rescue operations, serving meals to firefighters and providing accommodation for volunteers.

You can find further details here: https://news.defence.gov.au/national/defence-boosts-bushfire-support

FACT TWO – Emergency management is a state government responsibility.

While the federal government has been clear that all support it can provide will be granted, fire management is and remains a state responsibility.

Morrison was criticised on video for not funding the rural fire service enough, but this is ultimately not his responsibility.

You can find further details here via the CFA: https://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/about/who-does-what

FACT THREE – Reports that the NSW government cut money from the Rural Fire Service are not accurate.

ABC Fact Check investigated this claim and its verdict was that it ‘doesn’t stack up’.

You can read that report here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-05/fact-check-are-nsw-firefighters-f...–budget-cuts/11747396

FACT FOUR – Hazard reduction burns are more complicated than they appear, so it is equally unhelpful to just blame ‘greenies’ for the problem.

ABC Fact Checker ran an investigation into the complexity of hazard reduction burns that you can find here:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-20/hazard-reduction-burns-bushfires/...

FACT FIVE: ABC Gippsland reported in September that protesters forced a reduction in a hazard reduction burn.

The original plan was 370 hectares. This was reduced to 9 hectares. ABC Gippsland has since deleted this post from Facebook.

FACT SIX: Australian governments, state or federal, Labor or Liberal, are not directly responsible for the fires.

Blaming the federal government directly for the fires, as rhetorically convenient as it might be, does not stand up to scrutiny or rationality. Australia emits 1.3% of global emissions. However, Australia is the biggest exporter of coal. As The Conversation reported earlier this year, if this was factored in, Australia’s emissions climb to above 4%.

You can find that report here: https://theconversation.com/how-to-answer-the-argument-that-australias-e...

Australia is the highest emitter of carbon per capita in the world. Still, it does not follow that a country with low carbon emissions can directly, on its own, be responsible for the changing climate that is exacerbating the fires.

FACT SEVEN: Australia’s emissions are lowering, but its policies are subject to international criticism.

Australia’s emissions have dropped 12.9% since 2005. During the same time, China’s emissions have risen 67 per cent, alongside India rising even more at 77 per cent. Energy minister, Angus Taylor, wrote this last week. The Guardian fact checked this claim. It found the claim to be accurate; however, it pointed out that the main emission reductions in Australia have been due to a reduction in land use.

You can find that report here: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/dec/31/fact-checking-ang...

Unfortunately, most people are sharing hit pieces, outrage inducing headlines or memes on social media, and this is all of the information they are getting. Hopefully this helps people to be better informed. Stay safe, everyone.

mowgli's picture
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mowgli commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:43pm

Good post Indo!

Yes, States are responsible for almost all of it. Had to correct a relative yesterday regarding his statement of "it's the bloody Councils' fault".

"Australia is the highest emitter of carbon per capita in the world. Still, it does not follow that a country with low carbon emissions can directly, on its own, be responsible for the changing climate that is exacerbating the fires."

But perhaps it might want to stop stifling international efforts, as it has done every time since 1997?

Also, what are your thoughts on cumulative historical emissions as being the fairest assessment of each countries actual contribution to the problem? If that's the case, China is only approx. 8%. Most of it is the US and EU.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:38am

Can i ask where you got the 8% historic figure from?

We talked about this the other day in the other thread, we only looked at comparing China to Australia but we found this idea didn't hold much weight.

For example Just in two years of Chinas current emissions adds up to about 50+ years of Australia's emissions and then you need to factor in that our own emissions were much lower even 30 40 years ago, so this stretches it out even longer, obviously you would have to do the maths but for to estimate it could be 70 years plus.

Obviously USA and UK make up much much much more than us, but still id be surprised if it was 8% and even if it was, with every year this figure would change/rise very fast as China emissions continue to grow and are just so huge.

Already pushing towards 1/3 of world emissions, if the other countries reduce emissions and China continues to grow, there could be a day where China pushes towards 50% of global emissions, sounds crazy but we might see this in our lifetime.

Id love to see the proper estimates on every countries expected reductions and increases including China and see where it would put them, would be super interesting, someone must have done it.

mowgli's picture
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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 8:34pm

Well heck. Flick my nutsack and call me sloppy suzey. I must admit when I posted that I didn't check the date on the full report close enough (a decade old) as I went straight the chapter on historical emissions. China's share of cumulative emissions is now actually about double that.

Thanks for forcing me to follow that one up, Indo.

In the course of looking for a more recent source in response to your question, I also saw that global emissions went up 1.3% last year and 0.6% was from China (i.e. China is responsible for 46% of the annual increase).

Though as I said earlier, the simplest (though not necessarily the fairest) is if every nation reduces their emissions in line with the recommendations of the IPCC, which is approx 45% by around 2030. Australia's commitment is currently well below that, which is one of the sources of this kerfuffle. ScoMo says we're doing our bit. But clearly not.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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I focus commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:05pm

ID have the NSW government made an ad about what they are doing?

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factotum commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:12pm

What a funny almost 'about-face', V.I. Still worth a carton of Coops Sparkling, but. Cheers.

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adam12 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:13pm

Yo DRex, just spoke to my brother and told him some fucktard just called me a 'leftie' on a swellnet forum. He laughed and laughed. What I object to is not LNP ideology, it is being bullshitted to. It insults my intelligence and for some reason that gets me very angry. When angry I get abusive and tend to use bad language. Some, like that moderate right wing 'punk' Indo tell me that undermines the validity of any point I am making. I couldn't give a fuck, fucken' snowflake. Lie to me or regurgitate the bullshit and expect more of the same, every time.
Out there, beyond the pettiness of your left v. right ideological horseshit, there is a field. I'll meet you there. (If it's not on fire already!)

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mowgli commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:37pm

Just thought I'd plop this one on here as people have mentioned how "acting on climate change" and/or "reducing emissions will ruin the economy/send us into recession!!!!!".

Actually, it's the opposite. Reducing emissions gives us a net gain. Interested in your thoughts those people who have espoused similar the above (Indo, i'm looking at you)...

https://fortune.com/2019/09/10/cost-of-climate-change-2019/

"In a new report, the 34-member group, led by Microsoft Corp. founder Bill Gates, former UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and World Bank Chief Executive Officer Kristalina Georgieva, concluded that $1.8 trillion in investment by 2030 concentrated in five categories—weather warning systems, infrastructure, dry-land farming, mangrove protection and water management—would yield $7.1 trillion in benefits."

That's about AU$10.22 trillion for those playing locally.

I mean, heck, the Australian Treasury came to the same conclusion way back in 2011!

https://treasury.gov.au/publication/p2011-sglp-overview/costs-of-inaction

"While the modelling cannot accurately measure all the costs to the economy and environment of unmitigated climate change, there is no doubt that these costs far outweigh the modest cost of transforming our economy. It is not something that gets easier the longer we leave it.

In fact the opposite is true. The longer we leave acting, the more it will cost the Australian economy."

I smell a lawsuit coming on. (actually they've already begun, you can read about them here: https://www.climateliabilitynews.org/)

The disdain for Howard/Abbott/Morrison's blocking of action on climate change in about 10-15 years time is going to be off the charts. It's going to be super awkward for their progeny at cocktail parties.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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Blowin commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 7:45pm

Mowgli - Not sure how legal action against climate criminals is going to work when basically everyone on Earth is responsible one way or another. Even if just by virtue of their existence/ diet/ breeding

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stunet commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:10pm

There's a lot going on in that sphere. Had a visitor this afternoon, friend of the wife, who was herself a lawyer in a past life, and the targets are in sight. 

Perhaps not unsurprisngly, some of the bigger players have been anticipating this development for a while and are seeking full divestment long before government intervention forces them too.

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:23am

"The disdain for Howard/Abbott/Morrison's blocking of action on climate change in about 10-15 years time is going to be off the charts. It's going to be super awkward for their progeny at cocktail parties."

Dude im not sure how you figure this Howard in 2006 wanted to relook at Nuclear a 100% carbon free base load energy and along with Hyrdo the most reliable consistent carbon free energy, at some stage moving forward Australia will hit a wall with solar and wind, its a great renewable energy source but its not a base load energy, its a unreliable intermittent energy source., many many countries wont have these issues moving fiords because they took up Nuclear and decent amounts of Hyrdo a long time ago

Basically we are missing a very important part of the 100% carbon free puzzle, our only realistic way around this moving forward is to turn our coal fired power plants to gas to reduce emissions like places like UK have, but this just increases need for gas which is fine off you buy from other countries but gas production actually produces a lot of emissions, its actually been a big factor of late in our emissions because OS demand has grown. (long term we are crossing fingers battery tech improves and prices reduce, which will most likely happen)

But even then we will always need enough back up energy for those one off days we get like crazy hot summer days when energy needs sky rocket, i was reading about this lately and an article stated even up to 20 times an average days energy needs. (go read about this issue)

In regards to Abbott and Scomo during these years of power its been our fastest uptake rate of renewables uptake ever fir Australia especially in regard to solar roof top installations.

Currently making us per capita the leader in solar roof top installations, and currently per captia our rate of renewables uptake is 2 to 3 times faster than any other country in the world.

Pretty hard to argue government is doing nothing when this happens, especially seeing energy is the main source of emissions..

You are also totally ignoring the fact a liberal government signed us up to the Paris agreement in 2016

The second largest carbon emitter USA isn't even signed up, Russisa one of the highest only signed up late 2019

You are also ignoring the fact under these liberal governments billions has been spent on renewable including subsidies and all kinds of programs.

Basically your argument legally would be like trying to say person A killed person B, when person B is still alive and well.

Maybe instead of drinking the kool aid educate yourself here is a good place to start, there is countless incentives and programs even totally different ones like the 20 million tree program (google it)

https://www.environment.gov.au/climate-change

Id love to talk about the other issue of substantially reducing emissions without negatively affecting the economy, but it would be another long post, basically growth equals a healthy economy but growth also equals more emissions, its all about finding a balance between the two, it doesn't matter what government is in power they are not going to do something too radical it would be economical and political suicide, and be insignificant to dealing with climate change, Australia just doesn't have the power(emissions) to affect things negatively or positively, BTW that doesn't mean we don't do our part as we are though, because we take the outlook that if every country does a little it adds up to something substantial.

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sledgedog commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:15pm

Indo you are factually incorrect in your assumptions on solar take-up.It had nothing to do with the federal liberals actions/policies ,but more to do with their inaction.Their lack of renewable energy policy meant that people voted with their wallets & invested in solar panels.With the rocketing increase in power prices& the reduction cost of solar panels it was a no brainer for most people!! To say otherwise is “fake news”

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sledgedog commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:15pm

Indo you are factually incorrect in your assumptions on solar take-up.It had nothing to do with the federal liberals actions/policies ,but more to do with their inaction.Their lack of renewable energy policy meant that people voted with their wallets & invested in solar panels.With the rocketing increase in power prices& the reduction cost of solar panels it was a no brainer for most people!! To say otherwise is “fake news”

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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 2:00pm

yeah the uptake is thanks to the States, not Commonwealth. And the State efforts are almost completely due to Labour Govts (ongoing or started by).

I might move my responses on the rest over to the climate thread, as this comment section is getting a bit unruly. Would love to know (if possible) which article has the most comments in Swellnet history, and how this one stacks up

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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thermalben commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 2:44pm

Nothing will come close to a Webber Wave Pool article. 'Bout time we teed one up.

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 3:22pm

This is what i said

"In regards to Abbott and Scomo during these years of power its been our fastest uptake rate of renewables uptake ever fir Australia especially in regard to solar roof top installations.

Currently making us per capita the leader in solar roof top installations, and currently per captia our rate of renewables uptake is 2 to 3 times faster than any other country in the world."

This is all true, the stats support these claims, there is some great graphs somewhere showing this visually. (wish i could find the article)

Did i mention it was all because of what the liberal government has done?

NO

The longer story is Labor started the ball rolling, but the fact is Liberals did not stop the ball rolling most(not all) incentives and funding has remained, at both state and federal levels.

We are now in a very good position because apart from the fact the industry is subsidised by the government like all areas of energy the take up is still driven by natural influences like you say, main driver people want to save money on bills.

This is a fairly natural and sustainable market exactly what we want and as shown take up rates are very high, and rates of take up are most likely going to increase every year because energy prices WILL no matter what anyone says.(if anyone believes prices are going to go down they are crazy)

This is actually all very good news you people should be happy just like me, but unfortunately for some it doesn't fit in with their political views, so the common BS line is we are not doing anything, but all the evidence shows this is not true...so the fake news is the we are nit doing anything line.

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innatube commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:10pm

Australia is the hightest emitting western nation per capita thanks to scummo and the liberal party's weak climate change position.

More than 20 present and former fire chiefs tried to meet with scummo to warn him of what lay ahead this year and that we needed more fire fighting planes etc. He refused to meet with them . Twice,

He has blood on his hands as far as i'm concerned.

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AndyM commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:12pm

From Stanfrance earlier on

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2018/november/1540990800/sean-kelly/...

In his maiden parliamentary speech Smoko used this quote -

“when the history books are written, our age will be remembered for … what we did – or did not do to put the fire out …”

I'd say that the above essay would confirm many suspicions about him.

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thermalben commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 8:23pm

David Shoebridge (Greens NSW) Tweeted this a few hours ago.

"Just to be clear for the RWNJs who run these lies. I’ve been a Greens MP for almost 10 years and never once voted for, or called for, reducing hazard reduction burns. I’ve worked with almost 200 Greens councillors in that time and none of them have either".

https://twitter.com/ShoebridgeMLC

An unequivocal statement, on the public record.

For all of those claiming contrary to David's statement, can you offer any evidence? If it's achieved at Council level, then it must be contained within the minutes etc.

Oh, and I'm not a Greens voter either, I just dislike the spread of misinformation to push personal agendas.

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Teamclone commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 9:08pm

100% Campbell 2, Fuck off Slater stick to seppo domestic issues like that fuck wit that's causing the problem that runs your country before generalising on poor skip on a barbed wire fence.

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adam12 commented Monday, 6 Jan 2020 at 10:30pm

THIS
The Armidale Express 15/11/2019
by Badja Sparkes, longtime resident of Wytaliba
"Over the last three years, in co-operation with NSW Forestry, National Parks and the RFS we have had very extensive controlled burning in the State forest and national park on our perimeter.....Everything that should be done was done and lots more.
The fire that came last Friday was of another order of magnitude altogether. A crown fire roaring in from the west on a hot afternoon with an 80km per hour wind. IT WASN'T ON THE GROUND, IT WAS A FIRESTORM IN THE AIR, RAINING FIRE. THERE WAS NO FUEL ON THE GROUND, IT WAS ALREADY BURNED. The heat ahead of the fire front ignited nearly everything in it's path. Before he saw any flame my neighbors car exploded..."
That is for you Indo-dreaming, you soft right punk.

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PCS PeterPan commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 6:06am

Kelly Slater is the most widely recognised surfer on planet Earth , who is also a very good surfer . That is all he is , he is not a God , nor a scientist .

Another thing I do know , Climate Change denial is almost impossible to cure once it takes hold .

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ashleygould commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:13pm

Agreed.. sad but true. Climate change denislism is a badge you embrace.. it becomes part of your identity.. you are onto it! What would the mainstream know.. what would evidence based science know, because I read an article that said.... I'm going to get on forums and tell all those who believe in 'consensus' science that it's all rubbish..

God I feel alive! I'm onto it!

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Robo commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 6:37am

And the finger pointing begins.

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Vic Local commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 10:42am

Hell yeah it begins.
You've got the federal government and the fossil fuel interests desperately trying to shift the blame onto state governments, local councils, and greenies. They will say it's all about fuel reduction and has nothing to do with climate change.
The incompetent Smoko will do anything to save his political skin while the coal folk will do anything to protect their bottom lines.
If that puts people and property in danger from future fires, that's a price Gina and Smoko are happy for others to pay.

"angry online, smiley in the brine"

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belly commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 7:37am

My 3yo just got out of bed, we have ABC news on, his first words of the morning, "it's the bushfire mummy".

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garyg1412 commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 8:46am

Being on holdays the last couple of weeks gave me the opportunity to follow this absolutely heartbreaking event on the 24 hour news network. What stood out the most for me (other than the loss of life and property) was the fact that this is truly a mini armageddon. The footage of cars lining up for days for fuel, servos with "cash only" signs up, loss off internet/comms/power/water/sewerage services, traumatised people in the thousands, etc, etc made me wonder how us humans would deal with a disaster such as this on a global scale. A glimpse into our future maybe - I hope not!!!

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jacksprat commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 11:39am

Everyone will have an opinion on this topic. It is human nature to point fingers. The realities are we only have a small history of climate from which to draw assumptions. The NPWS do a job. Farmers do a job. Politicians do a job - all to varying degrees of success. Most or all groups of people in group of more than 2 have a vested interest. What we do know is we have a hotter temperatures globally. There are increasing issues regarding human breeding (considered by some to be the next global cataclysm. More species are becoming extinct - they won't be back. Forests are being stripped, ocean temperatures increasing. All the warning bells are ringing. Drive down any street - anywhere in urban Australia. Mc Mansions, 4wd, stuff stuff and more stuff. Come on, really - wetsuits, boards, trips overseas to just to sightsee. Car racing still exists? Really? Whinging on the internet does nothing. Change your little part of the world and your own habits does. If everyone does that, progress occurs. Talk is cheap. Lastly, the writer is a Boomer from Noosa. Seriously?

onetimeonly

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orangefield commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:27pm

agree @Jacksprat. Seems everyone is looking for, or proposing 'the reason' for the fires. There is no one reason and no one solution but everyone seems intent on nailing the PM, a celebrity surfer, someone/anyone to the post to somehow deliver 'a solution'. God dammit, someone must be accountable for the actions of millions of others!

But I cried when I watched the news, liked the post and donated some cash! I must be 'right'. Now, let me get back to planning that Bali trip.....

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ashleygould commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:04pm

It is such a sad reflection on society that even here, with environmentally conscious surfers, we still see the Murdoch media (which controls 70% of our media) inspired attacks on 'mainstream' science, and false equivalence of rogue 'experts' who have an alternate take on what is happening.

There is a scientific consensus that climate change is the fundamental, underlying cause of these unprecedented fires. But first, we need to understand what scientific consensus means, which is so often misunderstood by the general public. A scientific consensus exists when there is an overwhelming majority of peer reviewed studies which reach a similar conclusion. 'Peer reviewed' means that these studies stand up against scrutiny from fellow scientist via actual evidence and data. If you produce research which does not stand up against this rigorous process, a) your research is proven to flawed but b) ... on the upside you can gain possible regular airtime on sky news after dark, and gain a fanatical wave of support from those who embrace an anti evidence based science agenda.

It is useful to remember that EVERY scientific breakthrough for over a century has been made and confirmed via evidence-based peer reviewed studies. From the technology you use, to the medication you take, to that operation you'll have.. it all exists as a result of this process.

The false equivalence of evidence and 'rogue' science has been a carefully manipulated project empowered by corporate interests and right wing media, and as evidenced here on this thread, even environmental conscious surfers are not immune... even the GOAT.

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ddrew commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:39pm

A really well written piece good on you swellnet. Yes KS try and do some deeper reading, then speak, check your sources. One thing that bewilders from here in NZ - why on earth did Australians vote in a anthro climate change denying Liberal Govt ? Frog in boiling water springs to mind. Climate scientists have been unanimous on the science for 25 years and you Australia would seem to be among the first to experience it’s devastating effects. WTF up !

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Nakiboi commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:01pm

Very well done drew you produced possibly the dumbest comment on this thread, that is a massive achievement. Imagine thinking everyday people are obsessing over the climate thinking it's the one thing that's going to help them in life. Do you think we should do away with election's and just have the climate change party rule?

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swab commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:44pm

file:///C:/Users/ccfston/Downloads/cc230c4d0f0cbf449eb0d7d6ea38353c-videowebm.webm

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Balance commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:58pm

On a thread that has had some outstanding posts...ashleygould that is my favourite...well written

I also liked a previous comment that climate change denial is an incurable disease...nice...works on many levels...unfortunately it's a disease that will cause sickness for all ..not just those with the illness

I honestly pretty much gave up all hope in relation to the environment after the last federal election...i would love to see some evidence and action at some stage to renew a bit of that hope

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ashleygould commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:13am

Thanks Balance. I also stopped consuming the news after the last election, but as we can see here.. it's easy to be lured back into the increasingly depressing discussion..

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:15pm

Whoa.

Kelly has removed ALL of the text from this post, and replaced it with Instagram @ links of organisations to donate to.

Not sure if this will be effective, as the typical bell-curve of social media traffic has largely passed (it's already had 176,620 'Likes' and 10,905 Comments).

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:25pm

Oddly, he's also engaging in the comments too (don't tell me he's read all ten thousand of 'em!).

"Not everyone can fight every battle around the world but everyone can make some lame comment via Instagram about everything they want."

Is he talking about himself, or commentators he doesn't agree with?

mowgli's picture
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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:44pm

snap.

I wonder if someone alerted him to the SW article and comments (or similar) and that prompted his revisoin..

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

ojackojacko's picture
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ojackojacko commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 7:18am

completely gutless act from kelly to delete that text. if he’s changed his position, he should own it and put out a new post explaining why. as you said ben, the damage is done and the only real way to try for some mitigation is a proper retraction and explanation. deleting his post is just covering his arse

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burgo commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:29pm

Hazard reduction burns are useless. It just grows back again. Need to cut down all the bush in Australia and concrete the lot. Concrete doesn't burn.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 1:37pm

Fuck the koalas !!!! *

After watching the logging trucks returning from the surrounding hills with load upon load of former habitat , we decided to start planting food trees for koalas . After over a decade of putting in dozens of lovely eucalyptus for the cute little buggers , now I’m eyeing off every Forest red and tallowood as a potential oil-charged incendiary device.

Theyre all coming down. The koalas can just learn to love the lantana which grows relentlessly .

* Obviously a joke.

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t-diddy commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 3:35pm

Skimming through this thread, which I presume would be more left-leaning demographic, I'm saddened to come to the realization that we are unequivocally fukt!

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 3:44pm

IMHO the forum topics here generally have a very high number of more left leaning demographic especially in the main forums themselves, go check out the FB comments for this article and you will find a much higher left-right type view ratio https://www.facebook.com/swellnet/?__tn__=%2Cd%2CP-R&eid=ARDvTnwS57g8HEf...

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adam12 commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 4:08pm

Again Indo staying focused on left/right ideological crap. We are all the same when the ship is sinking. The wildlife, that little girl whose firey dad they buried today, the people burnt to death trying to escape a firestorm, do you think they gave a thought about the ideological division between labour and capital ?
Did some leftie fondle you when you were a kid Indo?

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 4:33pm

Um look at the comment i replied to.

You really need to take a chill pill, and what a weird comment for all you know i could be a victim of sexual abuse, luckily im not but i did have an experience where i came very close when i was about 12 and it was scary and looking back all makes sense, i was basically groomed by a dirty old guy and then he basically made sexual advances to me including getting his dick out in his room where he had lured me to look at something, luckily i got out of there quick smart.

Even at 12 i didnt really understand it all, but looking back it all makes complete sense what he was doing and i was 100% groomed over a period of weeks (i was working next door hiring out bikes from a house).

BTW. Doesn't surprise me that you said somewhere above you use to burn Vic local just because you didn't like him or something, goes to show the type of person you are.

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adam12 commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 4:43pm

OK. Sorry. It was an unthoughtful, misguided attempt at humor. I apologise.

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 4:47pm

no problem

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kaiser commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 3:41pm

Question only somewhat related to topic but forgive my tangent:

If a country imports goods from another, which one does the emissions from the freight (ships etc) get attributed to? Furthermore, who does the emissions from that product’s manufacture get attributed? If the demand for a product comes from another country, is it the purchaser or the seller who created that emission?

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 4:25pm

Wondered the same about shipping.

Obviously wherever the product is made the emissions are calculated even if it's a solar panel.

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kaiser commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 4:49pm

Not trying to split hairs or pontificate. Just trying to show that it is difficult for us to point fingers when we all live on the same planet. Not sure those who consume the most should blame those who produce the most. Cheap labour is the main reason these manufacturing behemoths exist (enabled by a comparatively low oil price). And consumption is really the reason for all of it. I wonder what China’s % would be if we only attributed the goods that stayed in China as being their contribution to the total? And if each country had their imports added to their tally (and to be fair their exports deducted) what would the numbers look like?

Only raising the question - not driving an agenda

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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:32pm

This is a good questions. It’s sort of complicated but not. Sorry if this makes ya head spin.

Essentially the way it works in most cases (i.e. countries) is emissions are allocated to a specific entity, when an activity is within what’s called “the operational control” of that entity. Generally an entity is a business, not for profit, etc, not really a government (will get to that one). There are three types of emissions sources – 1, 2, and 3. Type 1 are emissions from the actual burning you did of a fossil fuel or piece of timber, or the burps of your own cows. Type 2 are essentially energy grid emissions (a bit more to it but that’s the gist…if you buy non GreenPower from the grid, then the emissions from the coal burned to give you them sweet sweet kWh are yours, not the power company’s).

Type 3 are “supply chain” emissions, and these don’t really get calculated all that much because it’s a bitch to do so because it’s hard to know who they belong to (and often results in double counting and/or arguments). An easy example is the emissions from the flights and car rides the staff of a company took, or the emissions from the power plant that was built to power the town where your factory is because it’s the largest energy user. But you’ll see below why Company A including the Qantas flights its staff took is problematic.

So what is operational control? Basically, whatever activity occurs that you as an entity have the final say from a financial, legal or OH&S perspective on, is within your operation control. And any emissions (type 1 & 2) associated with those activities, are definitely yours.

So if you make the product, the type 1 or 2 emissions your factory “creates” (directly or indirectly) are yours. Running an iron ore mine? The emissions from the diesel used in the excavators are yours. If you own and fly planes around, the fuel you burn creates emissions that are yours to account for. In fact, if you’re name is Stockland and you’re building a shopping centre, there might be 10 different contractors and another 20 sub-contractors, and every single bit of fuel they burn in their vehicles and plant whilst helping you build said shopping centre, actually sits on your books, not theirs.

So basically if you create emissions from burning fuels yourself, the emissions are yours. If your demand for energy is supplied by fossil fuels, then those emissions are yours. But if you buy an iPad, the emissions to create that iPad are Apples, not yours. That being said, there are continuous debates in climate/sustainability circles about that last bit and whether we need to revisit that part like you suggested.

The “sustainability” thing is in my work wheelhouse. Hence all the jargon (sorry)

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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kaiser commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 6:46pm

Nice summary, thanks. One further one though - if I buy an iPad, and the emissions are attributed to Apple, does that mean the emissions are owned by the US, even though it was produced in China, and bought in Oz?

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mowgli commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 2:33pm

I'm still getting across the US approach but I think it's safe to say they'd be counted towards the US total, as they're a US company. That's how it works here. Most of what you see as "Australia's total" has been reported to the government from organisations that meet the NGERS reporting threshold. The govt then adds it's own figures to it.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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thermalben commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 3:46pm

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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:07pm

To those like Indo…

People are pissed at the Federal LibNats because ever since Rudd lost in 2013 they’ve actually tried to unwind or hamstring ALP/Greens (mostly Abbott & Cronies) programs that were setup reduce emissions and support adaptation efforts. And where they couldn’t do that they’ve sat on their hands done nothing to increase these, despite the need for doing so (i.e. the evidence put forth by various Commonwealth agencies) becoming so much more obvious since they came to power in 2013.

Any attempt to link the LibNats with the uptake in renewables is at best ignorant and at worst disingenuous (for those that didn’t see it, Indo did this about 50 comments ago*). Because the overriding reason for this uptake has been the establishment of programs by the ALP/Greens, and their ongoing push to have these remain in place. Maybe you didn’t mean to do this, but it’s effectively what you did by mentioning the uptake of renewables in the same breath as your defence of the LibNats, but not mentioning that the uptake is mainly due to ALP/Greens. As you say, market forces are beginning to take effect (again, thanks to ALP/Greens and strong pushes by the EU, Obama-US, California, and China). If the LibNats had their way, this would not be the case.

Unfortunately, a lot more needs to be done both to reduce our emissions and help us to adapt the changes already locked in (see: the news for the last 3 months). And right now the LibNats show no intention of doing this. In fact, among other things, they ceased funding for NCCARF a few years ago, have ignored calls for more input into bushfire preparation and fighting programs**, and have continually propagated lies and scare campaigns about the costs (and impact) of renewables on the energy grid, their reliability, the usefulness of EVS, and the consequences of moving to a “clean economy”.

Climate change should be a bipartisan issue. Even just a cursory glance of executive summaries from a slew of reports from organisations qualified to speak on the matter (Dept. of Defence anyone? Treasury? CSIRO? AMA?), show that climate change is more than just an environmental issue – it’s an economical, financial, national security, human health, human rights, agricultural, and legal issue too.

The point of this long winded posted (do I do any other type?) is that the LibNats and their enablers have MADE climate change (and things like the fires we're seeing) a political issue. And that is why so many others on here, and the public more broadly, have so much vitriol for them right now. So when "you" (various SW commentors) say things to the effect of “people/fuck-knuckles on here are just pushing their lefty/greeny political wheelbarrow, shamelessly scoring political points, being political partisans, angry at the election result” – yeah, you’re actually right on the money. But you seem to fail to see that’s because the LibNats wanted it to be this way. If you’re annoyed about the existence of this political debate, take it up with the LibNats (+ the IPA + the Murdochs + Gina + Clive + Malcolm Roberts).

*Sorry for calling you out specifically like this Indo, but some points you made have been made by others so thought it worth addressing with a “most recent” comment.

**yeah yeah I know, it’s mostly the States responsibility, but so is health and education and infrastructure, but the Commonwealth still puts in billions there

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 6:16pm

Nice conspiracy theory, but its goes against all the evidence at hand.

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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 7:04pm

On some level, that was the response I was looking for.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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ashleygould commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 11:30pm

Mowgli, this is right on point.. this is a political issue because it has been made one by the vested interests of the Coalition. Those who are for climate change action are for the preservation of this one world we ALL live on. To be labelled as alarmist lefty lunatics by the powers that be and many who buy into denislism on this post for example.. is a quite bizaar and horrific sign of the times we live in.

We live in a world of no shared reality and no shared facts, and this is the fuel of politisising disasters such as these fires and climate change in general.

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Goofy4 commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:26pm

We all have a part to play and a need to assess behaviour - if we were 'environmentally conscious surfers' we'd be body surfing the local break that we get to by foot.

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Average commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:40am

But what if we could have similar lifestyles AND combat climate change?

Deniers are causing us to waste our energy arguing about the issue, rather than promoting and investing into finding solutions. We have some solutions now, but we need more, better solutions to ultimately get on top of climate change.

We have viable solutions that can reduce fossil fuel burning already (renewables). But those alone aren't enough to get this under control. Some solutions are emerging (electric vehicles, cultured meat). There are other issues we don't have viable solutions for.. yet (eg. carbon capture, power storage still primitive, etc).

I feel like too many expect humans to solve climate change with the solutions we already have in 2020, and are resisting because using 2020 solutions will cause too much sacrifice to our current lifestyles.

We need leadership to lead us to new, better solutions so that we don't have to sacrifice our modern lifestyle too much and keep in a human-friendly state. We need more investment world-wide in new solutions. Deniers are getting in the way of this. Imagine how much more progress we could make if everyone was moving towards solutions?

What am I personally doing? I'm trying to reduce my own footprint. But much like many of us, I also don't know how to have maximum impact. Wouldn't it be great if leaders who had a plan emerged who could help us to have greater impact? Our current leadership is not helping in this regard.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:53am

To stem the climate change is going to require revolutionary lifestyle divergence from the path we are on. Not just renewable energy sources but less products.

And when I say less products , I mean virtually NO products.

TVs , Books , curtains , refrigerators, cars , multiple sets of clothes , mobile phones , surfboards, sunglasses , medical supplies ....anything you can think of will have to be rationed out of existence basically.

The world cannot sustainably accomodate 7 billion people living anything but a subsistence lifestyle. Unfortunately, the world can’t sustain 7 billion people living a subsistence lifestyle either.

Sooner , rather than later , the inconceivable issue of population volume management will have to be enforced. And whilst I’m sure that “the models “ show us that our population is about to peak , the issue is too great to rely on all too often incorrect computer predictions.

The cautionary principle will be applied to the single greatest driver of climate change which is human population.

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mowgli commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 3:29pm

Agreed Blowin.

I was at a conference a little while back and during the audience Q&A for a panel session, this older bloke (very experienced and well known in those circles) said something along the lines of "This is all well and nice, but nobody here is willing to talk about population. I know it's uncomfortable, but we have to. Without a reduction in n global population, all of this stuff you're all saying is a pipe dream! If any other species exploded in numbers and had even half the impact on the planet as ours has, we’d exterminate it. I’m obviously not advocating horrible things, but we need to talk about population.”

Was a bit of a mood killer hahahaha.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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innatube commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:36pm

Well put mowgli.

One of the most unbelievable things is that more than 20 present and former fire chiefs tried to meet with scummo before the fire season and warn him that it was going to be extreme and we needed more fire fighting equipment eg planes, helicopters etc. and he refused to meet with them. TWICE!

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mowgli commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 7:02pm

Good point Goofy4.

Though it's technically impossible to live and not have an environmental impact. A wombat has an impact. The thing to be cognizant of is whether our impacts (collectively) are within ecological carrying capacity boundaries. The wombat's certainly is. Humans? Not so. But you don't have to reach zero impact (by only bodysurfing), a still worthwhile goal is "being aware of and genuinely trying to minimise your impact wherever you can". And that'll differ from person to person, country to country.

The one I'm grappling with is my international flights. I recently did a detailed calculation of my household carbon footprint, and for just one return flight in 2019 (Nth America), it represented a shockingly large % of my total household footprint - approx 25%.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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Fliplid commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 6:09am

Are you allowing for your credits when you ride a push bike or walk to the shop ?

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Goofy4 commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 1:01pm

Another difference b/w us and the venerable wombat is our capacity to quantify the impact we have upon the environment ( as per the imprint calculations undertaken on a flight) - the next difference is that we have the capacity to mitigate that impact should we proceed with the action after making ourselves aware of the scale of it ( e.g. getting involved in local coastcare/landcare groups and their planting and noxious weed eradication programs...) One of my favourite mitigating agents is a guy who sells dirt cheap coastal native plant seedlings at the local market - he spruiks them like crazy - a total legend.....

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tubeshooter commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 5:56pm

Bloody wombats...

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bluediamond commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 8:22pm

Jimmy strikes again

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GreenCT commented Tuesday, 7 Jan 2020 at 9:05pm

Sorry jumping back to it was not an "ad" it was for information what was with the fucking electronic music then ?

Why are we blaming the Prime Minister. Because he is supposed to be our leader. Years of warnings about this including that seasons were going to be longer in the southern and northern seasons meaning resources could no longer be relied on for sharing.

and Indo Dreaming you said the Fed govt have been responding since November. Some these fires have been burning far longer than that.

Not sure if this has been shared before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4OBcRHX1Bc

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:24am

What music were you hoping for a sitar, acoustic guitar, piano, didgeridoo..what on earth does the music have to do with it?....obviously it needs some sound, its not like you are going to put a song in there with vocals FFS some people will find anything to complain about, whatever it was people would complain, i guess the most obvious was if it was too upbeat or cheerful sounding people would complain about that..

It would have actually helped if they actually did another video to explain to people like you how the whole system works.

States are responsible for disaster preparedness and response and for all the departments under them, in most cases this is fine, when it gets to much for them they then ask the government for extra help who steps in with extra help and funding like happened in late November early December when another 11 million was given by the government and army and airforce units involved.

And then this happened again when this video was released with 3000 Australian Defence Force reservists and mobilising of more military units military bases to aid the emergency response etc.

This has never been done before in Australia at this scale there just isn't a plan or system set up to deal with situations at this scale and there is no system set up to deal with national natural disaster like this which is kind of crazy because they do have systems/plans set up for terrorism. (im sure this will now change)

I can't see how its an add as not advertising anything other than what is being done it was an educational video to educate those who have just say..blah blah blah..the government is not doing anything because it suits their political views to do so or just that information on what has been done seems to not to be a focus,..anyway whingers will always whinge, haters always hate...so i guess it is what it is im sure they don't regret doing the video much better having people informed and whinging about a video than just spreading fake news that nothing is being done.

And btw to comment below i havent really addressed this area before in much detail, i did want to give this thread a rest, got shit to do today, but when someone aims a post at you with BS sometimes you need to reply.

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goofyfoot commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 8:29am

I can’t believe you’ve got the energy to keep constantly regurgitating this stuff.
Like a dog with a tennis ball that just won’t stop.
It blows me away. The same thing gets said over and over and over and fucking over

A Salty Dog's picture
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A Salty Dog commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:00am

HI Indo

You said

"And then this happened again when this video was released with 3000 Australian Defence Force reservists and mobilising of more military units military bases to aid the emergency response etc.

This has never been done before in Australia at this scale there just isn't a plan or system set up to deal with situations at this scale and there is no system set up to deal with national natural disaster like this which is kind of crazy because they do have systems/plans set up for terrorism. (im sure this will now change)."

Read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Navy_Help_Darwin

Cheers!

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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:20am

Ok sorry the article i read that uses the same words which was from a mainstream news source obviously didn't do their research 100%, point is its a very rare occurrence.

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mowgli commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 3:40pm

Sort of. Defence personnel are often mobilised in response to massive flooding and/or cyclone events. But I'll grant you that's pretty much only in recovery mode.

Also, I think you'll find part of the reason people are all over Scotty from Marketing is because he was somewhat aggressive in talking down any suggestion early this fire season that the conditions had been influenced by climate change in sort of way. In addition to not getting along to some of the affected areas, and just showing his face and offering some words of consolation. PM's have always done that, and swear I read even he did it back in Nth QLD during the floods. And then on top I think the whole ignoring the ex-fire chiefs thing is was really did it. Not that he necessarily could've done much post-meeting. But it was the fact he ignored them altogether, and then when they were caught out on this Littleproud hastily said he'd have one with them.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 8:40am

This fella seems to agree with Kelly...before Kelly was howled down.

https://theconversation.com/theres-only-one-way-to-make-bushfires-less-p...

So who is this guy agreeing with Kelly ?

Rod has a B. Sc. (Forestry) from the ANU and a PhD in forest ecology from University of British Columbia. His was Director of the Victorian Centre for Climate Change Adaptation Research from 2009-14, a research partnership between Victorian universities. He was formerly research program leader in the Bureau of Rural Sciences and Head of the Department of Forest and Ecosystem Science at the University of Melbourne. He has research interests in forests and climate change, forest ecosystem services, forest resource assessment and environmental policy and has undertaken research in Canada, Japan and Papua New Guinea. He was a member and past-Chair of the UN-FAO Advisory Group for the Global Forest Resource Assessment.

Experience

–present Head, Department Forest and Ecosystem Science, The University of Melbourne
2009–present Director VCCCAR, The University of Melbourne
Education

1993 University of British Columbia, PhD Forest Ecology

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stunet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:01am

Not really. He mentions climate change twice and his primary field of study is human-induced climate change on forests.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:42am

This is what Kelly wrote :

“I’m not sure a picture could better sum up the fear and devastation more succinctly. I’m no expert but from the messages and reading I’ve done on the subject, mismanagement of forest underbrush back-burning in the winter months and overall water resources have helped create a perfect storm in the face of this drought.”

Please show me where Kelly denies climate change and where he claims the drought, which may have been a result of climate change, had no effect on the fires.

The expert backs Kelly’s well intentioned OPINION to the letter.

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stunet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:56am

Oh, come on....really?

Did he just accidentally leave it out then? He certainly rushes into every other issue when it suits him, but maybe, just maybe, he wanted to have a say and come across virtuous, while not make things too uncomfortable for himself. After all, thirteen years ago he'd been clocked as travelling 6.5 million (!) air kilometres, which by now would be doubled or tripled, and he's unlikely to slow down. 

EDIT: Also, some context, KS goes well out of his way to pick arguments on Instagram with people whose science he doesn't agree with. Call it moralising if you will - the same thing you're accusing other people of.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:08am

FFS , Stu.

Part of the Kelly Slater wave pool development at Coolum is an ECO resort and some interpretative signage educating people about the remaining patch of wetlands after the holiday apartments have been built....what more do you want him to do ?

But seriously......I dont get the gnashing of teeth on this one and I’m a gnasher of teeth from way back. Kelly’s little Instagram post wasn’t that hectic.

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stunet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:05am

See my edit above. Fella has lots of form on the board, and took the gutless way out. Typical celebrity who had to have a say on the issue - just asking for donations wasn't enough, he had to pipe up with a theory - but alas, he couldn't state too much truth lest it make him look hypocritcal.

You see Ricky Gervais' Golden Globes speech?

Classic case of it.

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stunet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:08am

Anyway, fuck it, I'm burning a mnemonic.

Money's in the bank - I hope! - and cheers again.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:13am

Yeah , no worries.

People may wonder why I’m still going on about this . It’s because I’ve been trying for a few years to get a burn done around here and been on hold for years.

Some may say that the fuel load is secondary.....whatever. If there wasn’t waist deep bark leading for a few kilometres in each direction of property ( particularly my parents house ) , the threat from fire would be waaaaay less severe and that’s an indisputable fact.

So whilst the fires may be dwindling down south , it’s just a matter of another one starting up here and we are fucked.

Serious shit.

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stunet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:49am

Well I reckon now is the time to ask....well, not right now, but next autumn and winter.

Also, I've got my own reason for staying engaged, and it's kinda darkly fascinating. That is to watch the way public opinions shift or settle.

Did a philosophy degree years ago, quit six months before the end because I was sick of living in the world of ideas and wanted to do something concrete, work a trade, drink beer, fridays at the pub, and so I did, and I never followed up my degree. Yet it's funny how it followed me around.

Taught dialectic reasoning, the notion of investigating multiple viewpoints, and while I wouldn't say it's my fixed MO, everyone has a degree of ego and bias, it's often the model I use as entry point into an issue.

My own take on Anthropogenic Global Warming has shifted over the years, I've turned myself in knots at times, been a believer, been a denier, been a skeptic, but as the bulk of evidence keeps appearing I have to follow John Maynard Keynes: "When the circumstances change, I change my mind, what do you do sir?"

Over the last few days I've seen and read things that shift my own thinking even further away from skepticism towards belief, and even if that is largely driven by risk assessment - i.e we've just had a glimpse at a post-climate change world, who would risk their dogma on that outcome? - the end point is the same.

Yet in the course of those days, I've also read hundreds, thousands, of comments by people who are still regurgitating the same dogma despite everything. It appalls me and fascinates me. Mark Latham has today blamed Greens back burning policy AGAIN, and so has Barnaby Joyce, and all the commenters on their social media channels, and those of every right wing pundit, are howling for left-wing blood.

It's not scientific, hasn't been for a while, it's tribal.

I find it a real weakness of character when someone doesn't like another cohort of people, and so they put themselves in opposition to their views. They themselves adopt a stance, fabricate it, because it sets them in opposition to those they don't like. Principles? Science? Nup....tribal.

Many left wing people are fuckwits. Not my tribe, I aint doing pow-wow with them, and they can frankly stick their progressive policies up their arse, but I could never imagine burying my own principles just to oppose them.

You might think I'm casting judgement, and I guess I am, but I reckon I've done enough investigation to realise most people will cut off their nose to spite their face, as long as it means the lefties lose.

And that's what fascinates me.

A Salty Dog's picture
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A Salty Dog commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:57am

Hi Stu

"You might think I'm casting judgement, and I guess I am, but I reckon I've done enough investigation to realise most people will cut off their nose to spite their face, as long as it means the lefties lose."

The results of last May's Federal Election confirm that theory.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 11:02am

Wait ....so you think the threat of fuel load buildup in the valley is unscientific and that my fears are baseless ?

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 11:04am

Eh?

Wasn't even thinking of you.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 11:17am

Spewing....I was hoping to go off on an angry tangent.

Nice post , by the way. It’s funny watching public sentiment move like a wheat field in the wind , heh.

PS Agree about Gervais . Been binging on his stuff lately.

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garyg1412 commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 11:48am

Bam!!! And there you have it a nutshell Stu. Tribalism - the merry go round of modern politics.
Your comment about real weakness of character rings so true. When did you last see a politician and think of them as being strong in character???

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velocityjohnno commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 5:47pm

That was a phenomenally good post. Have you noticed the sheer rage - both ways? The trauma of what we are all seeing is being directed back at ourselves.

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mowgli commented Friday, 10 Jan 2020 at 3:46pm

I think ya’ll will find the root cause of the KS pile-on stems from a single word…

‘mismanagement’

In reference to hazard reduction. As has been said ad infinitum on here and elsewhere; the inappropriate conditions meant in many areas hazard reduction could not take place. Not all areas. But from the disaster management people and QFES folk I talk to – most areas. Kelly’s ignorant framing of that as ‘mismanagement’ is what’s really caused all this hubbub.

“Life is a long lesson in humility.”

Sir Abacus Bent's picture
Sir Abacus Bent's picture
Sir Abacus Bent commented Saturday, 11 Jan 2020 at 5:16pm

Blowy,
If Kelly Slater accepted the science of climate change why would he build his 'money' pool on the the flood plain at Coolum?
Let's be honest. You and Kelly both know you can't have it both ways.

KS is a great surfer but he shrinks a lot when he dries off.

GreenCT's picture
GreenCT's picture
GreenCT commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 9:55am

Indo
No music nothing except Scot Morrison. No men in suits standing nodding behind.
Just talking to us admitting he has made mistakes but this is what he as leader is going to do.
You do know for a short time it had a donate now button on it to the liberal party ?

Saying this is a state issue is passing the buck.

Years of evidence whether you believe man is contributing or not was pointing to these extreme events because of a changing climate.

Worried that the economy might be hurt if we try and transition to a clean energy future.

Want to reflect on how many shattered local community economies are now out there.

Why does it feel like been on the Titanic and the captain just says

Fuck the icebergs fullsteam ahead

middy's picture
middy's picture
middy commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:14am

Blowin let me get this clear, now you want Interpretive Signage?

Middy

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Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 10:34am

Ummm...no. I was taking the piss. Being sarcastic about the greenwash they’re applying to the ultimate behemoth development on the Coolum wetlands.

Interpretive signage is in my top ten pet hates. If you appreciate nature you will take the time to find out about it yourself and you won’t want an area compromised by the unnecessary hand of humanity. If you don’t appreciate nature why should a natural area be polluted with signs to appease you at the expense of those that do ?

Does my head in when I find somewhere beautiful and natural and there’s a frigging great sign blocking the view just so the National Parks can inform you of some immediately forgotten trivia whilst simultaneously wasting their budgets.

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Wednesday, 8 Jan 2020 at 11:01am

This is a good read. Well researched summary of the events leading up to, and including, the Xmas/New Year bushfires - and the associated response from the government as it happened.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/blog/nick-feik/2020/07/2020/1578372000/nat...

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Westofthelake commented