Legropes: The Weakest Link
Every system has a weak link; the point where it is likely to either cause complete failure, or at best, an unnecessary decline in performance.
If we look at a surfboard as a system the weak link is obvious; the leg rope. Individual boards have individual characteristics that make them suited to certain kinds of surfers but most surfers are fairly sophisticated consumers and capable of selecting a suitable board.
The basic design of a board then is usually suited to its purpose. Much the same can be said of fin design. The range of functional shapes is fairly well understood and suitable fins for a particular board can be discovered by trial and error as the vast majority of boards have interchangeable fin systems. These various systems for attaching fins to the board are the subject of frequent criticism but, by and large, failure is rare. In any given surf session the fins are unlikely to be a problem.
Traction between surfer and board, while the cause of occasional misadventure, is usually reliable. A range of waxes for different conditions are now readily available as well as a wide variety of deck pads. Theoretically it may be better to have the deck covered with some permanent non-slip coating but all attempts to produce and market such a product have come up against the conundrum that the degree of friction has been high enough to irritate unprotected belly skin. Wax seems to sit in some frictional sweet spot, high enough to provide grip for the feet without being so high as to always irritate skin.
The leg rope though is subject to two serious problems. The first is tangling. The surfer getting to his feet can find the leg rope looped around his leading leg, trapped underfoot or stuck between his toes. All of which are likely to cause loss of performance if not complete loss of control. Keeping the attachment to the the ankle strap aligned with the Achilles tendon and stretching the kinks and twists out of the rope itself may reduce the risk of tangling but it does not eliminate it.
But these issues are as nothing to the......what can you call it? String? Boot lace? Blind cord? Whatever it is, this is not so much bad design as the total absence of design. Here we are with a thousand dollars worth of sophisticated equipment attached to our leg by a mechanism that is difficult to use, unreliable and, if not used correctly, likely to cause damage and even injury. Some manufacturers are so embarrassed by this that they do not even provide it with their product.
It may be that most problems are caused by human error but if we think about that for a moment the people most likely to have difficulty are novices and inexperienced surfers- those who are also most likely to drown or need rescuing if the cord does detach from the board. Not everyone was a Boy Scout and the correct knot is not immediately obvious. Nor is it obvious that the cord is capable of damaging the tail area of the board. Does any leg rope manufacturer actually include instructions? Not in my experience!
The solution to both these issues is a total redesign of the attachment mechanism to improve reliability and reduce the risk of tangling. An entry point to finding a solution could involve looking at how the rope actually orients itself when everything goes right. The fabric tag aligns with the stringer so a section of the rope trails directly behind the board before looping back to the ankle. This is probably the minimum drag position so designing the attachment to maximise the chance of the rope taking that position makes sense. So the mechanism needs to be a light weight, reliable connection, easy to fit and that orients the leg rope to the position of minimum drag and minimum risk of entanglement.
Anyone up for the design brief? You probably won't get rich but it would make a lot of surfers happy! //blindboy
Comments
Sorry mate, you've lost me. You mean the string that attaches the leggy to the legrope plug on the board?
Most leggy;s have this incorporated into the cord/velcro now; it's easy as. If it's shorter than the distance from the leggy plug to the rail you shouldn't get a string pull through the rail.
Tangling? Sometimes. Maybe once a session, maybe not.
I can't quite see the problem.
If I had to give legrope design a scale out of one to ten in terms of impacting my surfing performance I'd give it a 1.
That aside, good to see you back on the horse.
Once a session is really once too often freeride. And yes some ropes do provide an easy fitting string, but many don't. Take a look around and notice how many boards have the string too long. You can blame human error but good design should prevent that. Thanks for the encouragement.
BB I'm thinking along the line that the current solution may be the best available. You could force the leggy tie to be directed backwards, but when the board is thrashing about in the whitewash, chances are that the leggy tie is going to need to be a very flexible joint in every direction possible. I've seen the leggy tie put dings in the tail or tear tailpads before so there's plenty of force being applied.
If the tie is oriented backwards either the housing or the legrope itself then becomes the weak point.
You could be right yocal and if someone from R&D at fcs wants to tell us they have tried a range of possible solutions and none are an improvement then that would strengthen your argument. Until then I remain firmly of the belief that there is a better solution out there!
sounds like you have an idea in mind?
The only thing that 'sprung' to mind for me is something highly elastic that pins the cord toward the tail but can stretch exceptionally if forced in the opposite way. I can't imagine a solution like that would last long before breaking/overstretching though.
jesus, talk about 1st world problems ;) I doubt there will ever be a soln that eliminates all twisting...any long flexible cord designed to bend in 3 dimensions has some tangling issues. like your power extension cords at home or your headphone leads....just one of lifes many frustrations that we are forced to put up with.
but does the legrope really contribute all that much to drag in the water? seems like such a small dead weight in comparison to the momentum of a human standing on a board.
As a proud kook, I totally related! ;-)
Few years ago after a long diner with a mix of kitesurfer and surfer friends, I came with the idea of a modified connecting system and a little modification on the rope.
It would be using the standard leggie plug, and force the rope to be aligned with the stringer. The "cross" section of the rope on the first 2 foot of length would reduce loops. And having a base slightly above the board would reduce the drag...
Now if FCS wants to finance the project ;-)
Go ask them David. The worst that can happen is that they will say no.......then steal your idea! More likely they will consider it and give you an honest response. Try them all, there's nothing to lose.
If you know the right person/department to contact? ;-)
Brian Cregan is co-owner of Ocean and Earth and has an interest in this area. They are at Sussex Inlet down south. Try emailing them.
http://www.pacificlongboarder.com/news.asp?id=3035&category=1
Brilliant! ;-)
Anyone tried a boogie leash, the coiled up type on a standup board ?
Why not just learn to surf properly and not use a leggy at all?
Oh, here we go.
Noooooooo! Leg ropes save my life every surf. We would all be smashed by loose boards from those people who can't currently surf "properly" and never will. Not to mention all the groms going for wild airs with a 5% chance of landing them.
Yes indeed. The next time someone's loose board is spearing towards your kids in the shore break you'll remember why leg ropes are such a good idea.
It's true that it could do with some design improvement though. I'm going to try the coiled body board type just for the heck of it.
Leg ropes deny grommets the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.
Interesting issue you raise BB.
The problem with using a bodyboard coiled leash is that it will straighten out/permanently stretch under the excessive weight of a surfboard. This even happens under the weight of a bodyboard in heavy waves.
However the coiled leash designed for surfboards may be of some benifit if designed appropriately.
Coiled leash would create even more drag IMO, with each coil catching the water.
Also paddling it would create lots of drag under water as well. No good for surfing.
Coiled leashes also have that rather annoying property of re-coil (until they stretch straight). Using one of those will almost kill you. A square (ish) foam thing skimming at your head is a lot different from a glass dagger.
True :)
Coiled leggies had a brief period early 80's. They came and went pretty quickly.
How about the Sidewinder leggies - anyone remember them?
Can't find a pic anywhere on the internet; will have to get Stu to trawl through the magazine archives for an image.
What a stupid idea!
Did you mean one of these? Terrible kitesurf legrope that retracts? Big, heavy. Usually attacked to your harness. Better off on a kite with nothing.
https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.powerkiteshop.com/ima...
Very similar, but I'm relying on a 25-year-old memory. Will have to find the pictures in an old mag.
Image from Zen showing damage to a new tailpad by the leggy rail-saver..
Zen, did you keep the piece that came off? I have had this happen a few times before and i just super glued it back to the board. Actually after the first surf on a board with new grip i check to see how well the adhesive has taken/ bonded. If i see any places where it has not taken i glue the edges of the pad to board with the super glue. Works a treat!
Nah Dean, i would have but it floated away before I noticed.
What about one that can extend quickly and easily, but then slowly contracts or coils so you don't get the sudden spring recoil action of a spiral leggy? In theory it should give you freedom of movement when taking off, will not extend more than necessary when riding a wave, thereby minimising drag, and in a wipeout situation it extends far enough to offer you some safety. By the time you've paddled back out it will be short again and less prone to tangle.
I realise this is all just concept-based and I have no idea about materials etc.
Personally, toe/leggy tangle happens very rarely, maybe 1/100 waves?
And I've never had the black shoe-lace thingy come undone ever. Had the board damaged by it a few times but that was because it was too long.
I think there's no major problem and hence no major fix needed.
I think the leggy tangling problem could be solved by the way they are packaged. They sit folded on themselves for god knows how long wrapped so tight and no matter how much you let it sit in the sun before you use it (which every chance deteriorates the durability) there is always those kinks to it. Why not start with a basic fix to tangles by packaging with a gentle loop?
I enquired about that exact issue when we got the Swellnet leggies done, and it caused many problems (I couldn't see why though).
Seems that most manufacturers are stuck on the standard packaging - whereas I would have though a perfectly round coil would be be fine for packaging, and ideal for surfers who need to use it straight away.
I should have persisted a little more.
Hey Ben that reminds me, you gonna make anymore leggies? I got one a few years back and its still going strong, at a good price too!
It looks to me like the above leg rope has been installed incorrectly making the. String longer than neccasary thus causing damage to the rail,
There is no rail damage, it's shadow and it's my board with the stringy thing attached correctly. The rail saver ripped the heel pad off second surf when it was brand new.
I get toe tangle from the leggy a few times every session, its really annoying and looks bad when I cant get my legs wide enough and do a feet stuck together bottom turn. I often experiment with the leggy a little loose on the ankle to try and keep it free from my front foot. Not sure if this keeps it running away from my front foot though.
Are you wrapping the legrope around the board after a surf and leaving it like that till you surf next? this is a surefire way to have tangling problems as the legrope maintains memory as a it is coiled and will catch your feet regularly
Zen, I think you have left a gap between the 3 heel sections when you glued it down leaving a gap where the leggie could slip in and tear one section off ?
Udo, scuse the late reply.
Maybe, but I've been doing that for years with my tail patches- splaying out the sections to give a little extra width. Usually they start deteriorating from the front back but this was the first time I've had a piece of heel pad rip off. Sometimes they've popped up and I have to stick them down again but never one rip off and only second surf on it to boot.
Maybe just got it in the sweet spot? Who knows?
Swivels at the board end and also the ankle end help with twists/ tangles. Some leggies only have one swivel, usually at the board end. Also good quality stainless parts so it doesn't corrode and stop moving freely
Go to Bali and talk to jeff Alexander, he has 50% of the design issue solved years ago. He has a design with the current leg rope that avoids snapping the board and rail...... True and tested in ulu's
Pic of him on inertia..at fuckn massive outside corner.shit.
Eliminate the rail saver totally . Thicker & shorter cord too
I remember ye olde days when leggies were still newish. They used to fly back and knock your head off and also only lasted about 6 - 8 months.
The current ones are a much better product.
The tangling around your feet could maybe stopped by using a stiffer urethane - but that may create other issues with their stretch and recoil...
8 inches of heatshrink tubing added plug end of leggie - from the swivel bulb outwards [without railsaver] may stiffen it enough to keep it clear of feet ?
that could be a simple fix
Get a reel problem! Can we kill sharks again!? Fin soup! Yummy!!
Seriously!!! I'm from the era of curtain line and hankies with the rope tired to a drill hole thru the fin if it didnt rip your fin out it tore your ankle off or ripped your fin out and your here saying o gee my leggee got wrapped around my foot once or twice. F - - - me get a grip no wonder we are breeding the softest kids cry babies don't upset the kiddies world in history. Yes they can break and cause a bit of a problem but 99.99% of the time they save our and every bodies arse. I'm truly dumfounded by this.
I got a laugh out of that evo.
Agreed, the current legrope is a huge improvement on the original improvised gear. We used to use a dog collar instead of a hanky. And some kind of fisherman's knot to attach the cord to the hole drilled in the fin. I don't think there was ever a risk of pulling out the old glassed-in fin. But the blind cord had a bit of stretch in it and you had to stay under a little longer to avoid a board to the head after a wipeout.
I copped a broken nose that way coaster. Those early ropes with blind cord through the middle were deadly.
......deadly in its literal non-indigenous usage.
I concur only 3 issues I have ever had with a legrope was before the days of rail savers were the legrope would destroy a rail,(problem solved) sure you may stand on it occasionally big deal, lift your foot.(problem solved). I once had a 10ft legrope (too long and not floaty enough it was a gift) that got wrapped around a coral head at a paddle out keyhole in indo in large waves resulting in the board and me being sucked out underwater while the legrope was firmly placed around the coral head, resulting in detachment of legrope and a trip across the coral for myself and board separately.
Seriously changing legropes is like reinventing the wheel, it serves its purpose companies are just looking for a way to sell a new and improved version to make money .
As Caml said - short and thick
Never wrap your leggie around your board - provides kinks and nicks from your fins.
Ocean and Earth make the best leggies going.
Welcome back BB.
You can get a heavy duty leash in pumping surf and the power and the energy will rip the velcro straight off your ankle...get a comp leash and the leash will snap before the velcro comes off...i think they need to work on the velcro part....
Really all this my biggest issue is I can only get 7m thick rope from all the major brands.
My ideal leggie is 8m by 6ft,7ft and 8ft for different types of solid surf. I also find most people use a to thin a leggie in solid surf then whine when they snap. DER. As for comp
leggies don't even go there, you show me on your gps watch the speed difference.
I bought a brand new O and E leggy , supposedly the strongest one in the world. Took it to G-Land. First wave got caught padding back out and had to bail the board....leggy snapped.
Took it back to the shop and they replaced it FOC.
Next big swell at the Point got caught inside with brand new leggy and the fucking thing snapped again. Board trashed on the rocks.
Maybe a bad batch but I now use the local manufacturer, Surf Aids , out of Byron.
No dramas.
I've been using Surfaids in Byron for years for my leggies (and board covers) never had a problem. And Aussie made!
Ive gone there.they a lighter and you cant even feel them on..only use a gps in my car ..i had problems with ocean and earth too...
I always suspect a nick in the rope if it breaks. It doesn't take much to lose 90% or more of the strength. I wonder what the maximum strain is for 7mm?
.Whoops wrong place
I break a lot more surfboards and seen more boards broken than leg ropes.
So where is the weakest link?
I have 8,9 & 10 mil cords , there's drag no doubt . U can go much faster with less legrope dragging . I told yas the rail saver can be removed & not a single commenter has acknowledged it haha . Eg why would a pro need a rail saver its over manufacturing that has fooled everyone . Way less drag - more speed
Good point about the rail saver caml. If the string is the right length the rope itself shouldn't cut into the board......or should it? Can't say it's ever happened to me but then again I have probably been using rail savers for the last 20 years. And I agree about the drag. This came up once before so I got a leg rope, looped it out over a swimming pool and pulled it back with a hand on either end, I didn't put a strain gauge on it but there was definitely a significant amount of drag.
The rail saver is another link in the system ie, That could potentially fail.
I hear what you're saying Caml.
Were they designed so that the force from your 7-8mm dia leggie won't cut through your tail ?
IMO when you rig things with load involved, it is best practice to keep a minimum of links in the system.
Lessening the drag is why it should be done welly nothing to do with the rigging / breaking strain . Suprisingly no cuts during countless hours used
before rail savers there were plenty of leggie cuts through the tail of boards, back in the 80's the rail saver was a piece of seat belt material, at least they are alot narrower now.
Yes
Thanks bb good topic to discuss ! My point is a major improvement that I tested plenty . Results worked fine for me , no cut ever from cord , & pro surfers doesn't matter if they get the odd cut , the fins systems are often damaged so why not the odd cut ? Im not saying to do this in powerful surf , I used boards up to 10ft without rail saver so I could go faster in indo mostly . For small waves its an improvement that is going un noticed
Well, the science, the physics, and even history highlights a much weaker link. As highlighted by an elite scientist, and athletic trainer:
"Almost every surfer I've ever trained lacks adequate leg strength. They are literally weak in the part of the body that provides some serious propulsion. I think traditionally people have thought strength training meant getting injured or getting heavy, or getting slow, but there's no scientific evidence for any of that. Stronger people get fewer injuries because weak things break. That's just physics.
http://mobile.surfline.com/#!/surf-news/inside-australia-s-surf-training...
A scientific study created a historical image where the pins of the average eeeleeete surfee were compared to the average petite female model's.
Despite the often used disguise (thank God for boardies!!!) it can be easily seen that the eeeleeeete surfees pins are tiny, extremely feeble in comparison to the petite model's.
In fact... truuuuuuwful historical fact... I have seen many instances where legropes have proven much stronger than eeeleeeete surfees pins. Often when an errant gust of wind whipped an offending leggy against the 'pins' of such eeeelllleeeete surfees, they literally snapped like toothpicks. Even striking down a hapless gorilla boy, a pretrained ant, nods, frosty, van vanity... pistol junior... the list is endless really...
In fact one session as I was threading my leggie cord through the leg rope plug, I heard a desperate screeching in the car park, and when I looked up to see what was happening, it was pointed out to me that I had threaded an eeeleeeete surfees pins through the thing!!! As history would have it, I can't remember who it was, possibly van vanity, perhaps jarvis, maybe nods or frosty, or even little camsless, well, they all looked the same to me...
Ta.
Haha, this is gold.
Great link uplift, I might have a look next time I am up that way.
No doubt you'll find it interesting blinder, maybe mutually beneficial for you both, and surfers also, regarding your journalistic talents.
In regard to weakest links, you might glean some usefull info here too. I personally don't agree with some stuff she writes, but she often highlights usefull info.
http://www.agelessforever.net/anti-aging-news-blog/muscles-not-just-for-...
Thanks again uplift I am off on a surf trip from Sunday but will be back in training as soon as I get back....got slack over Xmas!
Good to see your prose back on SWN BlindBoy. Shining the Dolphin torch on an important matter.
I like to use a figure 8 on the cord, sits nice, never comes undone, and doesn't jam. If you tie it right it can be quite nice and snug even with thicker cord
A leg rope could detach a leg
Only time I have noticed or felt drag was when I used a 20ft leggie at Waimea
it would grab let go grab again and flick free again was a little off putting and
there was drag besides that time never noticed any drag so I say long live
the leggie because without it I would be dead.
Of course nobody on these threads have noticed leggie drag , plastic fins , wax on the bottom of the board , fin in backwards , vaseline on the wax , paint as suncream , doesn't surprise me !
I can beat that caml, I surfed a whole session on the quad with the quad fins on the wrong side, flats to the rail and didn't notice anything different! It wasn't exactly perfect conditions, quite a bit of chop on the face etc......well that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!
i have a cunning plan...
Haha .yep bb
what a great idea I'm sure some on here would go for it judging by some of there comments.
http://www.surfline.com/gear/gear-review-xm-tangle-free-leash-checking-o...
Mate has one of the sliders. Swears by it. Never has a tangle.
Personally i'm still skeptical, as the only tangle i really get is from seaweed on dumpy beach breaks, and mates ripping off you leash, grabbing you leash to stop you duck diving or catching waves to stir shit when the waves are off.
If u went in a paddle race & you wore a leg rope with rail saver & wax coating it all , you will find u have to paddle harder than the ppl who aren't wearing one
dammit! stupid drag inducing, tangling legrope put some decent cracks in my board's tail ... i double glassed it with 6oz last time.
try XM legropes , tangle free , used them for 3 year up to 15' , never broken one and never get 's tangled
http://zaksurfboards.com/tag/xm-legropes/
Where have I been,why have I never heard of these ?
How does the 'slider' work? Thay look good.
only 3 issues I have ever had with a legrope was before the days of rail savers were the legrope would destroy a rail,(problem solved) sure you may stand on it occasionally big deal, lift your foot.(problem solved). I once had a 10ft legrope (too long and not floaty enough it was a gift) that got wrapped around a coral head at a paddle out keyhole in indo in large waves resulting in the board and me being sucked out underwater while the legrope was firmly placed around the coral head, resulting in detachment of legrope and a trip across the coral for myself and board separately. (Problem solved dont use crappy 10ft leashes on coral reefs)
Seriously changing legropes is like reinventing the wheel, it serves its purpose companies are just looking for a way to sell a new and improved version to make money .
As for the coiled legropes that were popular for goatboats in the 80's and there spring coil return forget it.
If your legrope destroys your gorrilla grip take it off use wax (problem solved)
Coiled leggy aint gunna work forget it
Amateurs need rail savers . Pros dont need them in smaller surf - Over manufacturing
a rail saver affecting paddling performance???? get in a pool and measure the difference over 50m. it'll be 2/5ths of fuck all....and even less so in surf conditions.
Just had look at the slider why not drill a hole in a couple of beer bottle lids if you feel the need for this product at least you can play the lagerphone for entertainment for everyone in the lineup
"This can range from the mild annoyance of getting tangled up, standing on the leash, or a missed wave to a pretty darn painful leash between-the-toes experience. All of which gets exponentially worse in large surf. "
Seriously. That painful leash between the toes experience WTF.
My 7yr old today " dad I hate legropes ." Why son ." It hurts my toes "
Got caught up in all the bullshit on the forum back to important stuff
FACT : still using a 20 yr old ocean and earth 8ft legrope is that a record or can some beat it.,
Yeah no rule thats unbeatable ! Hope you didn't jinx it !
I have a bag of leggies that are perfectly fine with the exception of worn out string that connects rail saver to the swivel. In the past I have even taken said rail savers to Bali to get restrung by boardcover maker over there. No way to buy said peice in Aus. Easily got 100 mtrs of black Da Kine cords rolled up in a bag. That is the weakest link in my opinion.
Had plenty of legropes over the years, and maybe just lucky but never had a failure of any kind....... until this morning. Surfed a northern NSW beachie, 4ft maybe 5 on the infrequent bigger sets. First wave, finished off in the shorey and just ducked back through the whitewater and felt the little twang and knew straight away. Thought it was going to be the string as noticed when putting the leggie on this morning was looking just a little worn (not too bad though). Was surprised that it gave away at the ankle strap before the swivel. Luckily had a backup board and legrope in the car so swapped legrope over (keeping the same string).
I have to admit, I never provided any maintenance (straightening the rope, washing/rinsing swivels, checking for nicks) on any legrope. If it started to look a bit ratty, that's when I would change over and get a new one. Most last a few years.
Just to add, I've never had any damage to any board from anything relating to legropes.
Yeah
http://ogd.me/the-wedge/
Saw this today. Get rid of rail savers all together and be done with tombstones.... 'parently.
Thats right roubyd good find . There was one of those type things in the board gerry lopez gave me in g.land 1998 & I used it without a railsaver the whole time and felt that lack of drag & never damaged the tail either . First time seen that plug ever & from then on I always eliminated railsaver on any board if it was a fast wave . That enabled me to make waves with less drag , it was probably that brand of plug
Can you remember how it went regarding the tombstoning? The claims are that cause you're pulling from the very end of the tail, the board doesn't anchor against the water. That'd be a pretty handy feature if it worked... think of the amount of times you can't get your board back quickly enough and you have to cop a couple on the head.
Wots wiv orl this leggie bashing? Didn't a leggie save Mick last year? Haha
But seriously, the only problem with leggies, I find, is that the board ends topside under (yeah I went there) 50% of the time :'(
Otherwise its a bit of a non issue. A real "first world problem" like HappyasS said. Still, I'm fascinated by the medium's role in innovation here. Good stuff!
Silvercord surf leash.
Smart Leash Co - all legrope parts sold separately, replacement urethane e.t.c
and are Interchangeable with major brands.
Big wave leash 8ft, bit short IMO. :-)
Anyone tried the legropes from ISC - Independant Surf co ?
$30 for a 6ft shorty free shipping in aust.
FCS-
New 'Freedom' legropes $60
FCS-
New 'Freedom' legropes braided cover over a standard looking urethane core...and a dodgy looking attachment at the railsaver -$60
Needs Essentials standard 6ft - $25
Cheap leggy = extra swimming
About4yrs so far from a Swellnet legrope.
Only wish Benjamin would sell me another iknow you have a box full at the back of the office !
Surf resQ - A new legrope repair device...a plastic bulb that instantly joins your broken leggie together..can be stored in your anklestrap .