Kelly Slater: Speaking for the Affirmative
In the course of his career Kelly Slater has taken surfing to new places. Faster, higher, deeper - he's pioneered new ground in wave-riding. Beyond the waves he's pushed surfing into the mainstream but, more recently, he's taken it into wholly unfamiliar territory.
Slater has always inspired others to strive a bit harder and to reach beyond themselves. Testament to that is the recent episode where he's had surfers brushing up on their debating skills.
Following his 10th world title win surfing commentators have been lining up to profess that Slater is not only the greatest surfer of all time, but that he is in fact the greatest athlete of all time.
It's an excellent debate, and for a number of reasons. Firstly, like all good debates it can never be resolved, therefore, there is no endpoint to the debate and everyone can keep chiming in with their thoughts. Secondly, as there is no authority on deciding this stuff the belief is - at least notionally - that the winner is the person who lays out the best argument.
Lastly, it's great because it's a debate on sport that's taking on academic dimensions.
Competitive sport is all about absolutes: the winner, the loser, the goal line, the final hooter. It's black and white with no shades of grey. Even sports with subjective criteria, such as surfing, only whack one name on the winners trophy and into the history books.
Yet this debate is the antithesis of that. There is no clear answer to who is the greatest athlete and hence there will be no unanimity on the decision. The best thing any proponent can do is construct the soundest argument possible. And so we have sports journos and keen punters alike weighing in with their takes on the debate.
'Lance Armstrong may have overcome cancer but he only had seven big titles'
'Cancer is unfortunate but it's got nothing to do with sporting prowess'
'Ali was an icon but he crumbled toward the end'
'Slater has more staying power than Jordan'
Perhaps it should be noted that Slater himself said it was a "pointless argument." In an article in the New York Times he stated, "People can't even compare Ali and Tyson, and that's the same sport, generations apart. If you can't go head to head in something, you can't prove anything."
It should also be noted that Slater's comments didn't stop anyone from continuing with the argument. So carpe diem you Good Will Hunters, and welcome to the debating team.
Comments
I reckon Kelly's pretty good.
Could Kelly's achievement ever be trumped by another surfer? In this day and age I find it hard to imagine anyone winning even half the amount of world titles Kelly has.
The title should be Kelly Slater: Speaking fro the Negative
And fro should be for
I speak in the affirmative. Nut cancer or not, ceteris paribus no other surfer has had the longevity of KS. His dominance has spanned over 20 years and bear in mind, his titles have not been consecutive. Consistency alone would add weight to this argument.
I threw the Latin in there for Stu and I also think Kelly would look cool with a `fro.
Ceteris paribus, eh Zen? I had to ask for some pro bono advice from my bona fide legally-trained partner but she shrugged her shoulders and muttered nescio under her breath. So I then turned to Google, where all things are equal and even a plodder like me can appear smart, to find out the answer.
And as to your premise: consensus ad idem
I reckon this is a pretty easy argument to have if you use a few key criteria, like Length of Career, Titles Won, Records broken, Diversity of achievements etc. Rather than argue "Is Kelly the best ever", how about "Who else comes close?". My first vote would be Reinhold Messner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_Messner
Unfortunately, I as you all would like nothing more than for it be Kelly Slater, but unfortunatley the title has to go to that wind wanker from the early days, Robbie Naish. he ruled his sport like no other. sucks, I know, but check out his credentials.... Cheers
I've had this argument with mates before and I was of the opinion that Kelly is the best athlete ever, however I was talked out of it. Surfing is an amazing sport which combines many physical attributes but not everyone in the world has the chance to try it let alone excel at it. Kelly grew up surfing and is the best ever at it... Same with Lance and riding a bike.
A sport everyone in the world has tried and can train at is running. It doesn't matter where on earth you are or how much money you have, you can always run. So for me the best athlete in the world is Usain Bolt. The fastest and the best at a sport we have all tried.
I don't see how you can compare KS to Lance at all.. Slater performed all over the world in a variety of conditions, all of which he mastered..
Lance made an incredible comeback (perhaps assisted by performance enhancing drugs at some point??) but he also focussed all of his energy on one race.. His team mates were there to assist him in his wins as well.. Something that KS has never had..
The Lance comparison has never sat well with me. Not cause of drug allegations but because cycling is a team sport. Sure the head rider has to do the k's but he's surrounded by domestiques unleashing all manner of tactics.
Cadel Evans in last years Tour is a good example of a rider at the top of his game let down by his team.
But as for that Messner fella that munkima mentioned above: the first person to ascend all 14 of the world's 8000 ft peaks AND he wrote 63 books!
*devils advocate*
sure armstrong had his team there to help him, and yes, air dropping out of the lip at teahupoo (v Bruce 2005) takes huge steely gonads, but going around France, through the alps and pyrenees for three weeks is much more gruelling than anything a surfer could do. Paddling Jaws would come close.
@Jimmy, why would you raise the drug argument here when Lance has never failed a drug test. You may as well question man's landing on the moon
@ The Jackel.. It is widely known that to make it in professional cycling you need some enhancement.. There have been many reports about Lance's doping and I believe where there's smoke... The dopers are so far ahead of the testing technology with masking agents etc that often we don't find out about abuse of the rules until long after they have finished competing.. Look at Marion Jones for example..
I don't know if the running argument sits well with me (or any other argument for that matter). Sure, Usain Bolt could smash anyone over 100 or 200m, but how would he fare against Haile Gebrselassie over the marathon distance? It's still running, we can still all train for it and significantly more people would compete in marathons than 100m sprints. But Haile is undeniably the greatest marathon runner ever and Usain Bolt might not even finish a marathon because he has completely different physical attributes.
There are far too many great athletes in far too many varied disciplines to place the crown of greatest athlete on anyone's head for any valid reason. Greatest ever in their own sport? Absolutely!
Kelly Slater is one of the greatest athletes of all time...
Michael Jordan, Objective SPORT
Lance Armstrong objective SPORT
Usain Bolt objective SPORT
Kelly Slater surfing: subjective pastime/NOT an objective sport
There is no argument here.
Steph Gilmore could be up there by the time she finishes, if not already.which other sports person has dominated to such a degree right from the word go?
Good point smerkin. Although, I reckon Carissa's gonna give Steph a good run for her money in 2011 and beyond. Should be quality viewing.
surfing is not an objective sport.
The powers at be try and make you believe it is, but what is the difference between a 8.67 ride and an 8.66 ride?
Answer? A judges opinion.
When Ali knocks out Foreman, there is no opinion.
When Armstrong/Usain Bolt crosses the line first, no opinion.
Kelly Slater is a fine athlete though.
Boxing isn't an objective sport. Only when there's a knockout is it objective. If it's a points decision then it comes down to the judges decision and rarely do all three judges have the same score.
Hi guys. First time post so here goes.
KS is without doubt the finest surfer I've ever seen and no one's record in surfing comes close.
However I reckon as a fair comparison of achievment and influence on their sport there are a couple of contenders.
1. Jack Nicklaus - changed the profile of the sport forever and won an amazing 18 majors.
2. Walter Lindrum - was so good at billiards they had to change the rules.
Both these guys were at the top of their sports for over twenty years much like KS.
Golf and billiards arent sports. They are both things to do when you are drunk
ok ive just done a few statistical calculations.
Kelly Slaters 10 tour victories is just over 4.4 standard deviations away from the mean number of victories (for people who have won at least one tour championship). Comparing this with data from wikipedia, don bradman's batting statistics are mathematically 'the best ever' with his batting average lying 4.4 standard deviations away from the mean. This would suggest that Kelly Slaters record is close to, if not the greatest. This is a very basic calculation and a lot of imprecise rounding of decimal places was used so dont start taking these values as gospel, but if anyone wants me to do some better analysis i'd be willing.
(if anyone has any problems with these figures please note im studying adv mathematics and i'm better than you at statistical analysis, but i live for the surf)
Jackel, your trying to compare two completely different populations! That stat 101 calc would be useful for determining who achieved the most victories but doesn't take into account for the level of competition and skill difference between the sports. So it cannot determine the best overall athlete, which is the point of the thread.
@Jackel.. You are actually a bit of a mong mate.. Golf's not a sport? Get a grip Pal..
And in reference to your landing on the moon comment can you please provide me with some evidence that "man" actually did?
@jackel
Gees you're scraping the first year barrel there mate. It's been a while since I've messed around with that sort of stuff but I've got some issues with what you've done. I'm not entirely happy with what you're suggesting because, for starters, Kelly's number of titles and Bradman's batting average are completely different types of data. A batting average is a measure of central tendency of every innings played. Total world titles is just that, a total. It's not a mean, it's not a median, it's the total. If you want to get something a little more comparable, try Kelly's average heat score. But good luck overcoming the problem that a heat score is truncated whereas runs scored is not, but it's certainly a more comparable than total wins and average score.
Setting that aside, I'm not sure about comparing how many standard deviations away from the mean two data points lie when a) the distributions of the each dataset will be so fundamentally different and b) with only about 30 total ASP titles, I don't think the central limit theorem will have kicked in yet to have that dataset approaching Normal...which I'm pretty sure you'd need for an analysis like you're proposing.
jackel is a goose
as i said in the post, its a very basic calculation and yes it ignores certain data, but i saw this figures for other sportsmen and decided to throw kelly in the mix and see how he went. im not trying to prove anything, just provoke discussion.
Sure you did but you also said "(if anyone has any problems with these figures please note im studying adv mathematics and i'm better than you at statistical analysis,..."
Kind of makes you seem like a tool, you're saying I'm the best at this so if you think I'm wrong, get stuffed. Yet you come up with that? If you're gonna get all cocky about something, at least have the brains to make sure you're doing something worthwhile.
Anyway, sorry stu, back on topic. It is completely futile to even try this but fuck it, it's a good laugh. Looking across all sports, I think Kelly has had more of an influence on his sport than others have had on theirs (although the billiards dude might be up there). He's changed the way people ride waves, his dominance has brought about changes to judging too hasn't it? He's influenced people's choice of equipment, maybe for the worse and not as much as say, Greenough, but he's had an effect there. For 20 years he has been at the top, even when not winning, even when he briefly retired it was all about Kelly. I think that sort of stuff puts him up above other sportsmen and women.
But comparing athletes...not possible. If lance tried to catch a wave at Teahupoo, pipe or sunset, he'd probably nearly die. But I don't think Kelly could complete say, three consecutive alpine stages of the tour.
No need to apologise Benski.
Yeah, comparing athletes might be impossible - the skills and disciplines too disparate to find common ground. But comparing athletes HAIR, now there we have a uniform playing area. And Reinhold Messner - the mountaineering fella mentioned earlier - wins hands down I think.
Check the thatch on him here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15807089@N00/1795316616/
And that photo was taken when he was 63-years old!
Well he certainly hammers KS in that department. That's very impressive. But now you're openning it up to a whole range of other athletes, like current reserve Wallaby hooker, Tatafu Polota-Nau:
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2010/11/14/1225953/493881-tatafu-po...
I mean really, did the 70s ever go out of style??
Not if you ask Argentinian soccer player, Carlos Valderrama. Another hair-bear athlete that leaves Slater for dead.
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/stunet/IMG_2140.jpg
That's awesome. Slater is an amateur.
"Studying adv mathamatics so I'm better at statistical analysis...." Say what!!
Hey, I've actually won two World Titles in my chosen field. That means I suspect that I'm more qualified than the Jackel tp comment on this thread.
I love all sports (well most, anyway), and I also love to see the truely gifted dominate in their chosen areas of endevour, such as The Don, KS, Nichlaus, Jordon etc. As to who is the best, I'd certainly find it hard to argue against KS. His overall record, and how it was achieved is inspiring to say the least.
Something I think should also be considered in this arguement for "Who is The Best" is class, and KS seems to me to have it in spades.
Yeah sure, but he's got no hair.
Actually Roger Federer is a bit of a legend in that way too. Class I mean. He's even got his own nemesis, Nadal is surely Federer's Andy. The only guy to regularly beat him and psyche him out.
Andy Irons eh. Credit where it's due. Without him we wouldn't be having this conversation. Tragedy.
Rossi.
9 World Titles
105 Race Wins
And he's only 31...
And may I retort in this continuing debate?
Alexander Karelin (Greco-Roman Wrestling), nicknamed `The Russian Bear`. In the heaviest class of 130kg remained undefeated for 13 years. The last 6 years without conceding a point. Was finally beaten for the Gold in the 2000 Sydney Olympics due to a new rule change and some dodgy antics by his American competitor.
I still stand by my original post in that it will be a long time before we see a surfer with the longevity or dominance of Kelly.
Greco-Roman wrestling?
Hello boys!
Ha Ha, classic!! I knew you`d pick up on this Atticus, especially with your name originating in Greek/Roman times. Atticus was a man/men who kept slaves to copy and interpret important documents. They were known as the first publishers. Like all good slave keepers of the time, I`m sure they indulged in a little pederasty to while away the hours.
Well, you know how they separate the men from the boys in Greece don`t you?
Usually with a crow-bar.
No Z, it wasn't Greek pederasty in antiquity that inspired the name, but Harper Lee's famous protagonist. Not a lawyer though, Finch is my surname but was already taken.
However, I'm slightly less keen on the name after your history lesson. All things in context I guess.
Wonder if Harper Lee was aware of the origins of the name?
Atticus, the book you speak of is a great read and coincidentally, my surname is Harper.
Upon reflection, I knew I`d opened a can of worms by mentioning wrestling, especially on a surfing forum. I`ll consider myself `zinged`.
Great waves here this morning in the land of the rising yen. 4-6ft, light winds and only 6 out at my local reefie. Hope you`re getting some waves too.
Well that's some wicked irony by Harper Lee if she was aware of the name's origin.
Zen,
There's a been a few waves about on the east coast of late. Certainly not in the 4-6ft range, but a promising weekend forecast and an empty schedule should give me ample opportunity to make the acquaintance of an early Christmas present - a 5'10" Quad. Thanks to a thoughtful wife for that one!
Benski,
Exactly what I was thinking.
David foster, 21years straight world champion in wood chopping, tell me who can top that?
Bob Hawke. sculled a yard glass of beer in seven seconds! The record has stood for 30 years. Beat that kelly!