Australia - you're standing in it
frog wrote:Parallel to geopolitical realisations mentioned above, in the investment sphere, those investing in China over the last decade began to realise that you may put money into the country but would probably never get it out again. There was often a one way street of technology transfer occurring - use the western "partner" until they knew all they needed to and then take over the market themselves.
Those "partnering" with Chinese firms in Australia in, say mining, began to find there was a predatory element to it all. An off take MoU with a Chinese firm in 2013 was hailed as a great leap forward for a local miner trying to move to production. By 2018 it was often seen as a negative as they either led to nothing much or else could end up with the miner being strung along to the point of receivership and then bought cheap.
Lived experience and financial losses created some deep scepticism across many countries about China's motives and behaviour at a big business level and even down to the mass of retail investors who got burnt or watched others do so.
This is why it's so important to have our own manufacturing, indeed an entire in-house supply chain to make things.
Good point Stu - I see much of our buildup as a response. Posted before a link to the Chinese naval build up "The rise of a blue water navy". Blue water means power projection.
stunet wrote:AndyM wrote:Paul Keating free to speak out while federal Labor toes the line and bends over.
I had a look at the front pages of The Oz, SMH, Tele and the Courier Mail yesterday and they were all dribbling in their support of AUKUS, nuclear subs and all things war.
So if there's talk of conscription you can bet the mainstream press will be fizzing at the bum in support.
This country is free and sovereign in theory only.You reckon walking a neutral path is a viable option for Australia?
I'm not necessarily talking about neutrality, I'm talking about having some semblance of political control, including the media.
I'd like to think that you can have alliances without the country becoming a vassal state.
As an example, France, Germany and the United States have an alliance in NATO, there are large U.S. military bases in both France and Germany yet both refused to be involved in Iraq.
Australia seems to have zero autonomy in that sort of stuff.
AUKUS is the single most disgraceful and embarrassing moment in modern Australian history.
It is completely devoid and ignorant of, and naive and blind to even the remotest understanding of world history, of China, and of the current changing geopolitical landscape and power arrangements.
It is the single most short and narrow sighted decision ever made in Australia's history that will damage Australia for decades to come.
It was sprung on the population by surprise with no public debate prior to the decision being made, which was in secret and announced only after it was made.
Australia as a country has now gone completely insane.
We have put ourselves offside with the overwhelming majority of the globe's population - Africa, Latin America, most of Asia, China, the Middle East, Central Asia, Russia, etc - and we are now military targets of all of these countries.
We have formally sided with the most ruthless, murderous, warmongering country of the modern post WW2 era.
We have decided to be a warmongering country instead of one focused on peace and prosperity.
Paul Keating is the only sane person in Australia right now.
Paul Keating has issued a statement labelling the AUKUS submarine purchase & build the "worst international decision" by Labor since Billy Hughes tried to introduce conscription @danielhurstbne @natasha__may #auspol pic.twitter.com/zOof3HzsNW
— Paul Karp (@Paul_Karp) March 15, 2023
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2023/mar/15/australia-li...
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/paul-keating-calls-nuclear-subma...
https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/fortescue-bids-to-build-south-austr...
The overwhelming majority of the world population is shaking their heads at us and asking how Australia could get things so backwards and wrong.
How could we get it so wrong?
It's because Australia as a country in the Westphalian sense has ceased to exist.
Morrissey at his most melodramatic couldn't have topped those last two posts.
In fact Andy, your one is better sung out loud in a Morrissey croon.
What rhymes with 'exist'?
Kissed
Grist
Missed
Schindler's List
Agreed. So poetic, my heart is breaking.
Sophist
Paul Keating was on fire and on point.
FFS it won't be until well into the 2030's that we get our second-hand subs from the Seppos, then in the 2050's - 60's we get the newbies. Not going to help if as some of the MSM have been screaming via 9 media that we will be at war in 3 years.
Geez hope China wait until we are ready.
Google US bases in Asia and how they surround China, then you may see some reasoning why they are spending big on Navy/ Military etc, still considerably less % GDP than the USA I may add. They are an emerging superpower and of course they will grow their military as their economy grows.
The USA can go on about the Spratly islands, but that is not even in the same league as what they did in Diego Garcia.
Can anyone point out any reason why China would try and occupy Australia? And could they even if they wanted to?
They may be far from perfect, but which country has been on more illegal military adventures in the last 50 years?
What really pisses me off with the whole deal was the lack of consultation with the Australian people, no debate, nothing, where is the nuclear waste going to be kept, where are they going to base subs etc etc. Stinks of Howard and Iraq and didn't that turn out well.
stunet wrote:You sure, Frog? I'm reading plenty of news articles that are either critical or neutral about the deal. Right, left, straight down the middle, lots of questions about cost/benefit and what the implications are.
On the latter, and putting cost aside for a moment, why is it that China can amass the largest navy in the world - see etarip's post above - yet when Australia acquires a bit of kit we're seen as aggressors?
I did not do a big review of news just formed an impression of what I saw last night flicking between channels and heard driving home from work. I am happy if debate is more widespread than I saw.
On geopolitics:
I think China has systematically shifted various goal posts for decades in all sorts of ways to their favour and almost never took a step back. Over this time:
- mostly west stood by or even facilitated things
- Wall St chased short term dollars as always
- many politicians, Universities and other organisations were complicit is furthering their aims encouraged through various funding mechanisms that benefited them or their professional interests.
Things had to change in non military areas. But defence and deterrence options are part of the equation.
Hopefully Albo's 24 hour decision was supported by the culmination of years of background analysis by the right experts and not rushed by a surprise "ambush" sales pitch under the extreme time pressure of a big announcement the next day. Not confident on that though.
Hugh White on why AUKUS submarines will never happen:
OPINION
stunet wrote:Hugh White on why AUKUS submarines will never happen:
OPINION
""For the price we are looking to pay for an eight-boat fleet of SSNs under the AUKUS program – around $300 billion – we could build and operate a fleet of fifty conventionally powered submarines, and there would be much less risk of it all going wrong. Now that would be a serious submarine force, far more capable than eight SSNs for the roles we need.""
Cool n normal!!
I dont know why everyone is worried about cost?
What happen to MMT????
stunet wrote:Morrissey at his most melodramatic couldn't have topped those last two posts.
In fact Andy, your one is better sung out loud in a Morrissey croon.
Dunno, how are we not a vassal state?
In any case, I shall be at the bar, with my head on the bar.
After all, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges.
AndyM wrote:stunet wrote:Morrissey at his most melodramatic couldn't have topped those last two posts.
In fact Andy, your one is better sung out loud in a Morrissey croon.
Dunno, how are we not a vassal state?
In any case, I shall be at the bar, with my head on the bar.
After all, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges.
Garry Weed to the courtesy phone, please!
indo-dreaming wrote:I dont know why everyone is worried about cost?
What happen to MMT????
Most of the money is being sent overseas... So not MMT.
AndyM wrote:stunet wrote:Morrissey at his most melodramatic couldn't have topped those last two posts.
In fact Andy, your one is better sung out loud in a Morrissey croon.
Dunno, how are we not a vassal state?
In any case, I shall be at the bar, with my head on the bar.
After all, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges.
Vassal state since Pine Gap the subs only locks us in, meet you at the bar
GuySmiley wrote:AndyM wrote:stunet wrote:Morrissey at his most melodramatic couldn't have topped those last two posts.
In fact Andy, your one is better sung out loud in a Morrissey croon.
Dunno, how are we not a vassal state?
In any case, I shall be at the bar, with my head on the bar.
After all, I bear more grudges than lonely High Court judges.Vassal state since Pine Gap the subs only locks us in, meet you at the bar
Agree, around that time.
The Dismissal and Pine Gap were related.
Paul Keating spells out the flaws and implications in AUKUS and how Albo is the deer in the UK / US headlights with the cheque book.
Some points:
-Subs too big for shallow Aust waters
- huge size means easier to find
- at any one time only 3 of 6 will be at sea in a very big ocean - they can shoot some torpedos, no more than that. They can't perform magic.
- they are designed to sit off China to contain China, not defend a continent like Australia.
- Chinese invasion of Australia is an impossibility
- 50 Collins Class subs for the same cost.
It is a hugely entertaining interview.
Keating shoots down a parade of lame journalist questions like ducks in a shooting gallery.
You can see the fear in their eyes as they confront a combative knowledgeable intellect.
frog wrote:It is a hugely entertaining interview.
Keating shoots down a parade of lame journalist questions like ducks in a shooting gallery.
You can see the fear in their eyes as they confront a combative knowledgeable intellect.
I watched the interview in full last night. Keating raised some very valid points in his very direct way.
Will be interesting to see how the msm etc handle these. My guess will be they attack Keating as out of touch, nuts etc but will not go anywhere near the issues he has raised.
Labor should be holding their heads down in shame. Pathetic, wonder if some will start to come out against it now?
The beetoota advocate….. pure gold ;)
And the Keating interview - if only our current leaders had this level of honesty, intellect, ability and common sense.
-Here is a perfect example of what is going on ;)
Eddie, James Earl Jones and the woman are the spitting image of aukus.
It’s true to form ;);)
No prizes for guessing who is Australia…
- We may as well get used to being somebody’s bitch, unfortunately it’s the only thing we seem capable of now ;)
https://m.
Yes they will attack him. But some of his points are just too simple and clear cut to argue against.
For a massive cost, Australia will end up with 3 maybe 4 active torpedo shooters at any one time to defend a huge coast.
The US will require them to sit off China as part of THEIR fleet waiting for something that will never happen (invasion of Australia or the US would be impossibly difficult) but in practice to further US geopolitical goals of being able to call themselves top dog forever on our cheque book.
So maybe one or two active in Australian waters at any one time - next to useless.
China is flat out working out ways to find and destroy big torpedo shooters in their waters.
Our defence policy has suffered a silent invasion of its own by the US.
Yes @tonyowright Paul Keating seems to have initiated divorce proceedings from his Labor Party .. like Malcolm Fraser leaving the Libs. Again this is over US domineering of Australia’s foreign/defence policy. Both Fraser & Keating distressed about our loss of sovereignty. pic.twitter.com/DPtmoUnkrf
— Quentin Dempster (@QuentinDempster) March 15, 2023
Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue, than one of our worst PM's ever who is only remembered for "the recession we had to have"
US just did a monumental number on Australia.
A classic manufacturing consent and shock doctrine scenario.
Australia has finally buckled under the sustained, brute force, relentless "China-threat" "China-invade-Taiwan" information and psychological warfare and terror campaign by the US government, media, think tanks and defence corporations designed to capture Australia and cement it as a US vassal state and achieve a large scale transfer of wealth from the Australian taxpayer to the US wealth elites.
It's a truely devastating outcome for Australia and its future.
Keating (and many others) are right about everything.
China threat to Australia = Iraq WMD.
If they are saying 380 billion it will end up being a few trillion. The ASC at Osborne would spend a billion to build a canoe. This project will make the Collins class build look like a kids school project and look at all the problems they had with that. If only we had someone of Keatings wit and intelligence running the show now. Still waiting for the power price cuts Albo.
old-dog wrote:If they are saying 380 billion it will end up being a few trillion.
I don't disagree with that...Governments and prudent budgeting, cost control...
indo-dreaming wrote:Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue, than one of our worst PM's ever who is only remembered for "the recession we had to have"
Yeah the current military experts in the USA concerned with their the USA's national interest, not Australia's. Hawke/ Keating government who set Australia up for decades of prosperity cleaning up mess left by Fraser and Howard govt, (you know the treasurer (Howard) who saw our highest interest rates ever). Hawke/ Keating govt still remembered as the best Australian government in recent times.
There, fixed it for you.
https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2023/03/14/submarines-may-become-obsol...
"But this tide is turning. Subs in the ocean are large, metallic anomalies that move in the upper portion of the water column. They produce more than sound. As they pass through the water, they disturb it and change its physical, chemical and biological signatures.
They even disturb Earth's magnetic field and nuclear subs unavoidably emit radiation.
Science is learning to detect all these changes, to the point where the oceans of tomorrow may become transparent. The submarine era could follow the battleship era and fade into history.
"Our key result was that the oceans are, in most circumstances, at least likely (probability 75 per cent) and from some perspectives very likely (probability 90 per cent) to become transparent by the 2050s."
Big and scary deterrents or a handful of easily broken eggs in one basket?
I bet Albo and the Defence experts don't really know.
Even if they remain hard to detect can two or three patrolling our huge coast do much?
Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue, than one of our worst PM's ever who is only remembered for "the recession we had to have"[/quote
At least he told the truth. Even when the truth made him unpopular. Shows a lot more political courage than any liberal leader since. Probably a good indication he’s telling the truth.I think he was also responsible for superannuation.
Yep we should bring back good government aka LNP.
We could save money on ministers and just have Scomo Minister for everything!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/15/scott-morrison-al...
Few thoughts on Keating and subs:
Any thought about 'throwing toothpicks at the mountain', dividing cost per sub, or even when they're gonna be ready, is missing the point that we've not bought subs but an alliance.
Thirty years ago, no-one...read: NO-ONE...knew China would ascend the global order as fast as they did. Western academics and pundits were praising Francis Fukuyama for correctly predicting the "end of history" - i.e the triumph of Western liberalism. So take anyone's prediction about where China will be, and what they'll be doing, thirty years from now with a large grain of Ajinomoto.
The subs amount could be considered eye watering except I've kinda lost that optical response after seeing $90B thrown at COVID over two years, only to turn and carry on. I see it as four times the COVID response but over a far greater period. Granted, the money could do a great many things in Australia: build hospitals, schools, even artificial reefs.
There is potential for subsidiary manufacturing to be borne out of Adelaide's docks. We need domestic manufacturing; most people recognise that. Possibly the decision was made knowing Labor's decarbonisation/renewable sector jobs aren't stacking up, so this is a Plan B.
I understood the motivation for globalisation post-WW2. Distrust and animosity between stranger states tore Europe apart, yet cross-border trade created economic ties that made for peace and co-operation, yet this 'global liberalism' has gone too far, coming at the expense of culture and autonomy, and also creating vulnerabilities: loss of manufacturing for high wage countries, trade reliance, ports sold to overseas interests. History doesn't exist on a spectrum but a pendulum, and a dawning realisation is seeing the arm slow and move back the other way.
Much of Keating's spray was about Australian sovereignty. I wonder what he made of Hamilton's 'Silent Invasion' and the CCP's clandestine fronts subverting Australian democracy? Yeah, the US has done similar dastardly things but at least they're a transparent democracy with a press both here and OS that will speak truth to power. May not always be MSM, but the same can't remotely be said of the Chinese press, or even the capabilities of the Oz press, as per Hamiton's examples, including himself who had his book cancelled before it was released under CCP pressure.
And how much of Keating's spray was legacy protection? He sat (still sits?) on the board of the Chinese Development Bank, and has been generally outspoken about the rise of China. In general, that's a good thing, pulling a billion people out of poverty should be admired, but not at the expense of geopolitical realities.
Also wonder about Keating's sudden interest in soveriegnty when he threw us to the neoliberal wolves with a raft of privatisation sales and scrapping import tariffs. Yeah, again, perhaps they were events that fitted the times, but in hindsight have led us down a worrying path.
EDIT: All that said I simply don't know which way I swing on it though some artificial reefs would be good.
I suspect China's main ambitions (excluding Taiwan and the South China Sea) lie more in using a host of non military means to exert influence across the globe.
- Trade mercantilism (winning for them not so much others)
- Loans to control countries and organisations of interest by debt
- Using buying power to dictate terms to suppliers and countries like Aust
- Intellectual property "acquisition"
- cyber stuff
- Technology leadership
- Dominance in key strategic industries
- Resource ownership
- Vertical integration from resource to end product so profits from supplying countries mineral wealth are hidden and end up in China.
- Buy up land, property
- Buy influence overtly and covertly
- Infiltrate political parties and influential organisations with China aligned influencers
- Facilitate western social disintegration (Tik Tok!), wokeness etc.
- Avoiding western style bubble economics dangers (they went down this path but now trying to escape it)
- control to varying degrees of the Chinese Diaspora
This is all in full swing with a long term view.
A few more Nuclear Subs don't counter these efforts.
stunet wrote:...the point that we've not bought subs but an alliance.
It's not an alliance. It's a military bloc under the authoritarian dictatorship of the US in which Australia has no power.
But I agree with the general sentiment of the statement in that the subs are not the point. They're more like a deflection and distraction away from two main problems.
1. The first is the increased strangulation of Australia by the US and the continued importing of the US's economic, cultural and social problems and economic-political model. The US is run like a private, for-profit corporation whose spending and efforts are focused on military capabilities and adventurism, and on enriching the already wealthy elite, while sweeping its social problems under the rug, and in the process allowing the growth of a large, neglected and festering underbelly of poverty, disadvantage, crime, homelessness, etc.
2. China is not a threat, but if we keep going down the path of creating military blocs against China, engaging in an arms race in the region, pressuring China on Taiwan particularly by militarising Taiwan and supporting the pro-independence and anti-China political party, continuing to enforce economic and technological etc sanctions on China, etc - the list of what the West is currently doing to contain and roll back to China is endless - China will indeed become a military threat to Australia. We're moving from a situation of China not a threat to making absolutely sure that China is a threat.
stunet wrote:Thirty years ago, no-one...read: NO-ONE...knew China would ascend the global order as fast as they did. Western academics and pundits were praising Francis Fukuyama for correctly predicting the "end of history"...
This is so inaccurate I'm surprised you'd put it in writing. The West has been directly and deeply engaged with, and observing and commentating the rise and development of China for 40 years now. There is absolutely nothing new or of surprise here.
Actually, the real problem here is the West's mistaken hope that we were going to be able to influence China and convert it into becoming another liberal democracy and capitalist economy, but China has refused to do this and instead followed its own development path and model.
This is what the West is really most pissed off with and what this whole situation is about.
Everything about the rise of China based on its unique and particularly peaceful development model and path is an absolutely damning refutation of everything the West stands for and everything the West, particularly the US post WW2, stands for and has fought endless wars in the name of.
China's rise and everything about China strikes a deep and damaging blow at the heart and very foundation of the whole neoliberal Western capitalist war machine model of development and growth by conquest and plundering.
stunet wrote:Few thoughts on Keating and subs:
Any thought about 'throwing toothpicks at the mountain', dividing cost per sub, or even when they're gonna be ready, is missing the point that we've not bought subs but an alliance.
Thirty years ago, no-one...read: NO-ONE...knew China would ascend the global order as fast as they did. Western academics and pundits were praising Francis Fukuyama for correctly predicting the "end of history" - i.e the triumph of Western liberalism. So take anyone's prediction about where China will be, and what they'll be doing, thirty years from now with a large grain of Ajinomoto.
The subs amount could be considered eye watering except I've kinda lost that optical response after seeing $90B thrown at COVID over two years, only to turn and carry on. I see it as four times the COVID response but over a far greater period. Granted, the money could do a great many things in Australia: build hospitals, schools, even artificial reefs.
There is potential for subsidiary manufacturing to be borne out of Adelaide's docks. We need domestic manufacturing; most people recognise that. Possibly the decision was made knowing Labor's decarbonisation/renewable sector jobs aren't stacking up, so this is a Plan B.
I understood the motivation for globalisation post-WW2. Distrust and animosity between stranger states tore Europe apart, yet cross-border trade created economic ties that made for peace and co-operation, yet this 'global liberalism' has gone too far, coming at the expense of culture and autonomy, and also creating vulnerabilities: loss of manufacturing for high wage countries, trade reliance, ports sold to overseas interests. History doesn't exist on a spectrum but a pendulum, and a dawning realisation is seeing the arm slow and move back the other way.
Much of Keating's spray was about Australian sovereignty. I wonder what he made of Hamilton's 'Silent Invasion' and the CCP's clandestine fronts subverting Australian democracy? Yeah, the US has done similar dastardly things but at least they're a transparent democracy with a press both here and OS that will speak truth to power. May not always be MSM, but the same can't remotely be said of the Chinese press, or even the capabilities of the Oz press, as per Hamiton's examples, including himself who had his book cancelled before it was released under CCP pressure.
And how much of Keating's spray was legacy protection? He sat (still sits?) on the board of the Chinese Development Bank, and has been generally outspoken about the rise of China. In general, that's a good thing, pulling a billion people out of poverty should be admired, but not at the expense of geopolitical realities.
Also wonder about Keating's sudden interest in soveriegnty when he threw us to the neoliberal wolves with a raft of privatisation sales and scrapping import tariffs. Yeah, again, perhaps they were events that fitted the times, but in hindsight have led us down a worrying path.
EDIT: All that said I simply don't know which way I swing on it though some artificial reefs would be good.
Personally, I would prefer artificial reefs!
Saying that, is it really in Australia's national interest to be so tied in with the USA? Could there not be another path? Keep alliance but do it more on our terms, or have we been given this option only as a take it or leave it? The article from The Saturday Paper you posted yesterday implied the sub deal would unlikely eventuate for various reasons.
You mentioned that no one could predict that China would grow so quickly etc.
That is correct, but no one can predict what state the USA (or UK) will be in in 30 years into the future. Another Trump or someone similar presidency could change the whole deal. Who is to say the USA doesn't transform into a dysfunctional dictatorial state with its own internal problems. Unlikely I know, but no one thought Trump would win, and the Capital shenanigans was not a great display of a functioning democracy.
Anyway it looks like it is locked in now, but reckon Labor may have screwed themselves for the next election, the budget/ economy was looking iffy before this commitment. Where is the money (new taxes) coming from and what cuts will need to take place?
Especially if China respond with trade war like sanctions, last time I checked they were our biggest and most important trading partner.
Stu and bonza have mentioned ‘Silent Invasion’
I recommend ‘Spies and Lies’ by Alex Joske.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60882259
Alex is a super smart young fella, Ive met him a couple of times now and am super impressed with his knowledge, insight and humility. His book pulls apart the CCP influence / subversion / elite capture playbook. There’s a couple of chapters on Australia too.
‘There are only a handful of researchers in Australia of whom it can be said their work has a truly global impact. Alex is one of them.' – Clive Hamilton, author of Silent Invasion
@etarip,
Cheers for the recommened. Hamilton's recent biography was also insighful in that he opines about that period in his life; how friends who were political travellers severed ties, how some wrote whataboutism opeds about him, and also how he formed unlikely alliances with people across the political spectrum (James Patterson, Andrew Hastie).
It was a case study in dropping all ideology and assessing what you see in front of you through a singular lens. Joske gets many mentions in that bio.
@gsco,
You say a statement of mine is "so inaccurate" that you're surprised I put it in writing, and one paragraph later you write almost the very same thing?
indo-dreaming wrote:Im sure all the current military/defence experts behind the scenes that advise the government have a far far better idea of every aspect of the issue...
#Fukuyama/Hitchens/Hamilton??
https://www.australianbookreview.com.au/abr-online/archive/2018/218-apri...
Costello and 9 would never think to destabilise a Labor govt ey....
Got Robodebt off the media cycle.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/16/pretentious-hyper...
Which paragraph Stu?
The situation here is the West got its hopes up that China was going to become a democracy and capitalist system and allow the West in with “unrestricted access”, which appeared to be the path China was going down. You only need to looks at the review of etarip’s book recommendation to see that.
Xi Jinping put an end to this slow hopeful transition and in general developed China into a country that the West can’t rape and pillage like it did in the century of humiliation.
The West absolutely can’t stand this, that it can’t have it way with China and exploit it like it did and still does to this day to so many countries and peoples in the past few hundred years.
As a result we are just witnessing a great power rivalry between two fairly different and apposing ideological, political, economic and cultural, etc, systems. In this power struggle the West does not want to relinquish its hegemony it has enjoyed post WW2 and is understandably doing everything in its power to hold on, and it want open access to China on its own terms to make money from it and basically rape it.
In Australia we’re relentlessly and endlessly brainwashed by being bombarded with extremely one-sided, biased, fabricated anti-China fear mongering media and political commentary. It’s just information and psychological warfare and outright fear mongering terror inflicted on the population that draws on our embedded and engrained racism in order to infect us with a deep rooted fear of China, that China is a military threat to our safety and a threat to our liberal democracy, market economy and overall way of life. Etarip’s and Bonza’s book recommendations are perfect examples of this fear campaign.
The overwhelming majority of the Australian population falls hook line and sinker for this biased media and political coverage since they have no independent personal experience with or interest in China or its people, culture, history, society, development path, current trajectory, language, etc. They have no alternative information upon which to base judgement apart from western media disinformation and propaganda courtesy of the US lies machine. The Australian population is just brainwashed and is unable to have independence thoughts on the issue.
We are just in an age of great power rivalry and the first casualty of war is the truth.
I would have thought this is all just common sense.
Lol GSCO the shoulder chip is large on you. Yet that outrage does sound familiar.
@etarip thanks. On my list
Stunet nails it.
Subs deal aside - I mean what the fck did people expect. It’s an alliance and a necessary one to counterweight CCP aggression in the region and to Australia. Not sure how anyone missed the last 10 years as a period of militant espionage and open hostility. Protecting one’s financial interests and political legacies can have that affect I guess. I’m sure everyone Is familiar with the infamous 14 demands. That’s some tone deaf shit right there for the new would be colonists.
I suppose the question for me is will this deal now give the CCP pause to question their ongoing international aggressive quest. Would it be raising eyebrows about CCP inner circle authoritarian tactics given the aukus agreement response? Or will it be a red rag to a bull(y)?
The way @gsco writes about China is fascinating. What a great country it must be, we should all pack our bags and move over there. Sing our praises to the supreme leader. Why live in such evil, corrupted, manipulative developed western country as Australia or the US?
GSCO world view is very simple. “Nothing we think we know is real”.
Unless its approved by and or gushing of the CCP and its version of China.
Couldn't agree more Flollo, he has to be the most deluded individual in Australia.
I do my best to just ignore the Rubbish that comes out of his posts.
Todays one was no different "unique and particularly peaceful development model and path" I don't think i have ever read a more ridiculous statement in my life.
I think everyone should just ignore his posts and hopefully he fark off!
Oh well AUKUS porkus here we come. For better or worse.
If the ABC News is any guide, ranks have closed and the political shield wall is up to repel critics.
And, Keating's Shakespearian performance and masterclass in showing the shallowness of current debate have been deftly swept aside as being from yesterday's man.
Keating is a little too optimistic on the CCP agenda but had some valid points on the limitations of the big subs for defending Australia, the price tag, the likely limits to China's territorial ambitions and US motivations.
The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.