The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

bluediamond's picture
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bluediamond Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 7:41pm
Supafreak wrote:

@Bluediamond , what have you been up to ? https://twitter.com/slpng_giants_oz/status/1598191136937373696?s=46&t=pd...

hahahaha. Surely Bolt's not a Swellnet reader!!?? Unless he walks amongst us!! Hmm...i wonder who that might be. hehe.
If only i had that kind of sway @supa. haha. Sadly, just been brushcutting for days on end and riding the foamy in onshore slop. :-D

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bluediamond Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 7:43pm
Patrick wrote:
bluediamond wrote:

Yes mate @goofy.
A very simple one. This is their land and their country. Always was and always will be.

If anyone who owns land or property believes this feel free to give your property away. I can arrange for my nephews or niece to take it off your hands. They live in the kimberly, I'm sure they'd love a surf coast or city pad to holiday in. They have a large extended family, I could find recipients for many properties. Any givers?

That's a ridiculous suggestion @Patrick! It would be like someone coming and just taking your land and stealing your children and suppressing your culture. Wrong in every way and if ever such an injustice would occur, surely the right thing to do would be to give everything back?? Or am i missing the point?

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AndyM Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:19pm

I've never understood the "always was, always will be" slogan.

On the other hand, I saw a sticker the other day which said "look after country and country will look after you".

Sounds like a good vision for the future.

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oxrox Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:28pm

That's a good one Andy. What about "Let's not dwell on the past but look to the future" :)

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Patrick Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:33pm
bluediamond wrote:
Patrick wrote:
bluediamond wrote:

Yes mate @goofy.
A very simple one. This is their land and their country. Always was and always will be.

If anyone who owns land or property believes this feel free to give your property away. I can arrange for my nephews or niece to take it off your hands. They live in the kimberly, I'm sure they'd love a surf coast or city pad to holiday in. They have a large extended family, I could find recipients for many properties. Any givers?

That's a ridiculous suggestion @Patrick! It would be like someone coming and just taking your land and stealing your children and suppressing your culture. Wrong in every way and if ever such an injustice would occur, surely the right thing to do would be to give everything back?? Or am i missing the point?

If you own property, no one's stopping you from giving it away. Like I said, I can arrange for my (aboriginal) neice or nephews to receive it. You talk the talk (well, chant slogans) but do you walk the walk?

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AndyM Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:34pm

There're clearly elements of the past which need to be discussed, acknowledged and accepted as fact.
There's lots of work to be done there, and we're finally understanding this as a nation.
But I think we need positive unifying narratives for the future as well.
The concept of "look after country and country will look after you" clearly comes from an Indigenous angle but it's essential for everyone

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Patrick Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:42pm
bluediamond wrote:
Patrick wrote:
bluediamond wrote:

Yes mate @goofy.
A very simple one. This is their land and their country. Always was and always will be.

If anyone who owns land or property believes this feel free to give your property away. I can arrange for my nephews or niece to take it off your hands. They live in the kimberly, I'm sure they'd love a surf coast or city pad to holiday in. They have a large extended family, I could find recipients for many properties. Any givers?

That's a ridiculous suggestion @Patrick! It would be like someone coming and just taking your land and stealing your children and suppressing your culture. Wrong in every way and if ever such an injustice would occur, surely the right thing to do would be to give everything back?? Or am i missing the point?

And if you've been stealing children you can give them back too.

(It might relieve you of some of your guilt.)

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Patrick Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:45pm

I better go do a head count!

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bluediamond Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:53pm
Patrick wrote:
bluediamond wrote:
Patrick wrote:
bluediamond wrote:

Yes mate @goofy.
A very simple one. This is their land and their country. Always was and always will be.

If anyone who owns land or property believes this feel free to give your property away. I can arrange for my nephews or niece to take it off your hands. They live in the kimberly, I'm sure they'd love a surf coast or city pad to holiday in. They have a large extended family, I could find recipients for many properties. Any givers?

That's a ridiculous suggestion @Patrick! It would be like someone coming and just taking your land and stealing your children and suppressing your culture. Wrong in every way and if ever such an injustice would occur, surely the right thing to do would be to give everything back?? Or am i missing the point?

If you own property, no one's stopping you from giving it away. Like I said, I can arrange for my (aboriginal) neice or nephews to receive it. You talk the talk (well, chant slogans) but do you walk the walk?

Wow, thats a pretty insulting post. Chanting slogans. Have you read this whole thread. You know little about me and my background and assume i'm just trying to make myself feel better. Nope. Correct me if i'm wrong, but is empathy and caring for others something you frown upon as i detect a strong sense of self entitlement to your post. I'm assuming you're an indigenous fella yourself?? Or?
Show me one part of what i've said where i've said what indigenous people should do in any of my posts. All i've ever posted about is what western culture, and settler culture can give back to right the wrongs of the past. I post ideas that are obviously weighted heavily in favour of indigenous Australians, purely because i'd hope it makes people think., and realise how lucky we are in this country and giving some of our privileges up is a neccesity in moving forward and healing past injustices.
Mate, i'm happy to sacrifice alot. I don't need to give you my personal life on a public forum, but as i said over and over in this thread, sacrificing our easy cushy life that is built on the blood and oppression is something i'm comfortable with.
When i say realestate, you assume i mean a house on the coast. What about crown land, national parks, reserves, coastal parks. These are the no brainers to me that should automatically be transferred back to the hands of Indigenous Australians.
I really hope you're not Blowin using another name again ffs.

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oxrox Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 8:53pm

You can't change the past but you can hopefully make a better future.

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gsco Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 9:35pm

It’s such a challenging situation. How do we white people face up to and right the wrong of what we did:

1. We came here and decimated the indigenous Australians by murder and disease, and then stole their land from them in a magic trick of white-man’s law.

2. Then for the remaining aboriginal Australians, we marginalise and discriminate against them, shuffle many of them off into remote communities of poverty and disadvantage, and turn a blind eye, out of sight out of mind.

Actually can the indigenous voice in parliament be viewed as another magic trick of us duping the aboriginal Australians to further participate and assimilate into our white society, culture and political and legal systems?

From reading history I recall instances of war torn peoples particularly in Eastern Europe trying to live as minorities assimilated within other ethnic/cultural peoples, and due to it not working out so well they are then given their own geographical regions and support to form their own self governments and way of life.

Actually a common theme in China is where ethnic groups are given certain geographical regions called autonomous regions in which they have a certain amount of self governance. See for instance the wiki page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_regions_of_China in which it says:

The autonomous regions (Chinese: 自治区; pinyin: Zìzhìqū) are the highest-level administrative divisions of China. Like Chinese provinces, an autonomous region has its own local government, but under Chinese law, an autonomous region has more legislative rights, such as the right to "formulate self-government regulations and other separate regulations." An autonomous region is the highest level of minority autonomous entity in China, which has a comparably higher population of a particular minority ethnic group.

(There’s also autonomous prefectures and administrative divisions.)

I have spent quite some time in the largest one of them, Guangxi, and there is quite the expression of their unique culture and way of life.

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AndyM Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 9:41pm

“Actually can the indigenous voice in parliament be viewed as another magic trick of us duping the aboriginal Australians to further participate and assimilate into our white society, culture and political and legal systems?”

Wow that’s some serious cynicism there.
Not to mention showing large amounts of contempt and disrespect for all those who put together the Uluṟu Statement From the Heart.

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sypkan Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 10:29pm

"I've never understood the "always was, always will be" slogan."

pretty sure this comes from the complex legal arguments that some use - or moreso once used - to take back the whole kit and kaboodle

which are fair enough arguments, and do make a good point... but... realistically...

it's all a bit 80's / 90's...

and a catchy slogan...

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sypkan Friday, 2 Dec 2022 at 10:43pm
AndyM wrote:

“Actually can the indigenous voice in parliament be viewed as another magic trick of us duping the aboriginal Australians to further participate and assimilate into our white society, culture and political and legal systems?”

Wow that’s some serious cynicism there.
Not to mention showing large amounts of contempt and disrespect for all those who put together the Uluṟu Statement From the Heart.

yes and no...

language is tricky

I think this is why the voice is 'marketed' as a generous offer of reconciliation from indigenous people

they have tempered their demands considerably, ...considerably considerably... (the mainstreames anyway....)

after being 'duped' out of more ambitious promises...

conceded to realities over 'never ceded'?

or just a step?

anyway, it is a pretty modest request...

but it is hard to see it as being any different to atsic or any other number of bodies that have had a run

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AndyM Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 9:06am

“conceded to realities over 'never ceded'?”
Yeah I think the realities are obvious.
“ always will be“ might be good for morale and dignity but I don’t think it’s dealing with the here and now.
A voice to Parliament is much more pragmatic.

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adam12 Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 10:43am

Terra nullius was always bullshit. The First Fleet arrived to set up a penal colony, a prison with no walls. The thinking was that the convicts wouldn't escape because leaving the settlement meant they would most likely be killed by 'natives', i.e. the people that already lived there. They knew it wasn't "nobody's land". It wasn't until later, when they got a good look at it, that they started claiming it all.

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waveman Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 11:50am
AndyM wrote:

“conceded to realities over 'never ceded'?”
Yeah I think the realities are obvious.
“ always will be“ might be good for morale and dignity but I don’t think it’s dealing with the here and now.
A voice to Parliament is much more pragmatic.

No one has any idea how pragmatic or otherwise the voice to parliament will be seeing as its powers haven’t even been defined yet.

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gsco Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 12:47pm

Pls correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is the indigenous Australians don’t want imposed on them the laws, institutions and structures of their invaders and oppressors.

My understanding is they want - and deserve - self determination via some form of legitimate political and legal self rule and governance. It seems clear that our democracy currently does not provides this.

But I believe a legitimate and lasting form of indigenous self rule could be accommodated on this great terra firma called Australia.

Maybe a voice in parliament is a step in that direction and if so then I support it.

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AndyM Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 6:36pm

"my understanding is the indigenous Australians don’t want imposed on them the laws, institutions and structures of their invaders and oppressors."

Very much depends on which crew you are talking about I expect.
But for those who don't, the Uluru Statement shows that they are pragmatic enough to realise that, paradoxically, the best way to achieve this is by doing it through the laws, institutions and structures in place.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 3 Dec 2022 at 6:46pm
AndyM wrote:

"my understanding is the indigenous Australians don’t want imposed on them the laws, institutions and structures of their invaders and oppressors."

Very much depends on which crew you are talking about I expect.
But for those who don't, the Uluru Statement shows that they are pragmatic enough to realise that, paradoxically, the best way to achieve this is by doing it through the laws, institutions and structures in place.

100% i depends on who you talk too, again people need to stop talking of indigenous people as this one big group that all think, act & feel a certain way, as you can see from stats below a decent percentage live in cities and are no different to other people i doubt most of these people want seperate laws or institutions or whatever.

Based on projections for 2022, among Indigenous Australians:

38% (344,800) live in Major cities.
44% (395,900) live in Inner and outer regional areas.
17% (155,600) live in Remote and very remote areas combined.

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-health/profile-of-indigenous-...

Almost all the issues to do with those facing a gap and real disadvantage are in regional to very remote areas.

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oxrox Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 9:57am

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/how-david-littleproud-s-elector...
Looks like there is a bit of confusion amongst the indigenous in the bush as well.
Not surprising as all they are relying on is ABC news and radio for their information.
Not surprising also that they find the nationals decision bewildering.
Some are against the voice to parliament also.

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I focus Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 1:34pm

Given the general Australian population cannot agree on many issues not surprising that of the 1st nations population difference mobs have different views.

But the Voice to Parliament is an attempt to allow some of those points of view to come forward note the balance of representation is / intended to be greater from remote areas at the moment there is SFA.

The Nats move making total BS excuses and hiding behind Price out the front is an affront to common sense but points to a high to baseless political maneuvering and weakness of the leadership.

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GuySmiley Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 2:51pm

@info says

" ...... again people need to stop talking of indigenous people as this one big group that all think, act & feel a certain way,"

and then in the same sentence goes on to make the sweeping assertion lumping all city based Aboriginals into one big group

"as you can see from stats below a decent percentage live in cities and are no different to other people i doubt most of these people want seperate laws or institutions or whatever."

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blackers Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 4:50pm

Consistently inconsistent.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 7:25pm
blackers wrote:

Consistently inconsistent.

Are you going to add anything to the conservation or just be a fuckwitt?

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 7:33pm
GuySmiley wrote:

@info says

" ...... again people need to stop talking of indigenous people as this one big group that all think, act & feel a certain way,"

and then in the same sentence goes on to make the sweeping assertion lumping all city based Aboriginals into one big group

"as you can see from stats below a decent percentage live in cities and are no different to other people i doubt most of these people want seperate laws or institutions or whatever."

Okay fair enough maybe i was generalising a little bit too much on that last comment.

But you still know what i mean, we know no ethnic group thinks or feels the same, and we also know the issues and level of issues seen by indigenous people in different areas they live is very different.

We know the greatest problems especially in regard to the gap are in very remote to remote communities, then region areas, then cities.

Those facing real problems, have real reason to want change, while those that dont face those problems and generally live like you and me really have no need for a change of these things.

But okay sorry i was thinking too logically and forgot about ideology etc

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sypkan Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 8:09pm

I like linda burney, i find her a very likeable, balanced, and inspiring politician...

but she looked silly this morning on insiders - still repeating, and repeating, and repeating, the same old lines labor has been trotting out for over six months now, no detail whatsoever...

I get it that the working committee are still figuring shit out, but labor are just looking cagey and ill prepared now. when directly asked if australians will know what they are voting for before the referendum, she still couldn't give a straight answer

yeh, the nationals are morons for going way too early... but if labor cannot offer up at least a framework soon, they'll lose this debate

'the vote for the referendum will be on principle not detail' (pat dodson)

good luck with that

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 8:41pm

It's hard to know exactly how the voice will operate as we know so little about it, but one of my first thoughts when i heard of the concept was how corruption would factor into things especially when you have a large number of non elected people from all kinds of areas with possible links to organisations and individuals seeking funding and they all kind of have a bit of power, would be a lot of temptation to be swayed by people who offer to give you kick backs if you can help them get funding or doors opened for them etc

In 2016 Indigenous funding was said to be worth 30 billion a year so you would expect it would be worth much more now, and then you have all these organisations wanting funding, i read there is over 1100 Aboriginal funded organisations then Land Councils, various agencies, The Coaltion of peaks and many advisory bodies that already exist.

You could imagine there would already would be all kinds of miss management of funds, corruption and kick backs but this voice thing with advisors sounds like a dream gig for that kind of thing.

Then i learnt there already was something along a similar line from 1990 to 2005 that basically failed and in part due to issues of corruption.

It was called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005)

"was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives, established under the Hawke government in 1990. A number of Indigenous programs and organisations fell under the overall umbrella of ATSIC.

The agency was dismantled in 2004 in the aftermath of corruption allegations and litigation involving its chairperson, Geoff Clark"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_and_Torres_Strait_Islander_Comm...

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blackers Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 9:13pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
blackers wrote:

Consistently inconsistent.

Are you going to add anything to the conservation or just be a fuckwitt?

I will leave that to you.

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I focus Sunday, 4 Dec 2022 at 10:47pm

"It was called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005)"

Indo its already been made very clear "The Voice" will be nothing like ASIC not that it stopped disinformation BS from the Nats unfortunately.

Also the Voice so far hasn't proscribed to hold any powers if it did it simply wouldn't get up everyone including 1st nations know that.

As for abuse of power and corruption look no further than the last Coalition Government rumors of what some of the ministers got up to are pretty out there (not speaking of Morrisons secret ministries), will be very interesting how the new corruption watchdog handles it all.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 5 Dec 2022 at 8:34am

How can it be nothing like ATSIC when the key purpose of both is basically having a third party of indigenous people advise on indigenous issues and where money goes.

Something that if you believe common rhetoric has never happened before.

Obviously corruption is an issue at all levels of government anywhere in the world, even in Victoria Dan Andrews is in an out the IBAC and findings rarely made public, so i wouldnt get too excited a simple line like "I don't recall" can also clear things up when under investigation, anyway lets not derail this conversation.

But with how much money is involved in the industry its no a brainer that there will be a large risk of corruption and kick backs, especially when you have people connected to various organisations and individuals and people that might not be on big money and have this once in a life chance to get some decent money.

I wonder if they will have a proper system to monitor this for example all bank accounts, real estate and other assets are recorded (ideally including close family) and then monitored to pick up any oddities, although these days it would be easy to get paid in crypto or funnel money through friends and family.

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GuySmiley Monday, 5 Dec 2022 at 3:30pm

Disingenuous as ever @info

The Voice to Parliament will look nothing like ATSIC, a body based on your comments above, you know SFA about, apart from your online resurchin.

If you want to start a discussion on corruption perhaps you should start by acknowledging what you have previously refused to do when it came to the stench that was the Morrison Govt.

Further, government programs and funding does attract fraudsters, there wouldn't be one pocket of government immune to cheating. That is why we need a strong and well trained and resourced Public Service to ensure funding integrity wins out over corruption. Now, serious question, which side of politics has spent the last 10 years gutting the public service? Your side of politics that's who under the lie of "cutting red tape". A Federal ICAC will also go along way to helping stamp out the corruption.

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I focus Monday, 5 Dec 2022 at 10:51pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

How can it be nothing like ATSIC when the key purpose of both is basically having a third party of indigenous people advise on indigenous issues and where money goes.

1st Nations people involved with the process and Labor ministers have been at pains to point out "The Voice" is nothing like ATSIC.

Please read up on ATSIC.

As for doling out money after the ATSIC allegations that wont be a function of The Voice.

We wouldn't want a scenario like the corrupt way Coalition Grants were issued by the billions particularly with no over sight.

I assume The Voice will be covered by the new watch dog on federal corruption matters anyway having said that if the rumors are true about Coalition ministers they will be too busy for much else.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 21 Dec 2022 at 6:50pm

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Supafreak Friday, 23 Dec 2022 at 11:58am

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-23/andrew-gee-resigns-national-party... Federal Calare MP Andrew Gee quits National Party over Indigenous Voice to Parliament opposition

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Supafreak Saturday, 24 Dec 2022 at 5:01pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-24/uluru-statement-co-author-makes-c... Uluru Statement co-author makes the case for an Indigenous Voice to Parliament

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bluediamond Wednesday, 28 Dec 2022 at 11:42pm

What does it mean to be an Australian?? The Captain Cook version!!!!! (from 2007)
60 minutes but note the number of times an indigenous Australian is credited as being an Australian...or even acknowledged in the story. 0 minutes! Oi Oi Oi!!!

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seeds Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 12:22am

Those Australians are all grown up and their offspring are the Eshays brah

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bluediamond Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 7:34am

Haha @seeds. Yes indeed.

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happyppl Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 8:24am
I focus wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

How can it be nothing like ATSIC when the key purpose of both is basically having a third party of indigenous people advise on indigenous issues and where money goes.

1st Nations people involved with the process and Labor ministers have been at pains to point out "The Voice" is nothing like ATSIC.

Please read up on ATSIC.

As for doling out money after the ATSIC allegations that wont be a function of The Voice.

We wouldn't want a scenario like the corrupt way Coalition Grants were issued by the billions particularly with no over sight.

I assume The Voice will be covered by the new watch dog on federal corruption matters anyway having said that if the rumors are true about Coalition ministers they will be too busy for much else.

focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities.
ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is.

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AndyM Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 9:09am

It started off as something truly deliberative, let's hope it continues that way.

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I focus Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 9:52am
happyppl wrote:
I focus wrote:

"focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities."

Yep think it was likely worse than that.

"ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is."

That's possible but good governance and over sight would be key.

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happyppl Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 4:37pm
I focus wrote:
happyppl wrote:
I focus wrote:

"focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities."

Yep think it was likely worse than that.

"ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is."

That's possible but good governance and over sight would be key.[/quo..te]

Good gov and oversight from oz beaurocracy? lol.
Cynical outlook from me but like the "blues bros" movie quote " if the shit fits wear it".
I would much rather see da $billions spent on regional infrastucture and homelessness rather than a new govt agency that's full of uni degree airheads.
My experience with govt agencys is cover up their failures and blame it on lack of resources and funds.
This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.
Just an excuse for pollies etc to "shoehorn their kids" onto cushy jobs.
Allso the fed and state govt are biggest employers in cntry, we don't need more ...except medical, defence, ses, cfs, you know usefull ppl.
Not pencil pushers with a big chip on shoulder and mega confirmation bias attitude who try to lay "guilt trip" on this generation for the imperialist empire rule of 200yrs ago.
This voice is divisive ...anyway had to say something cos no one wants to see the "elephant in the room".

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happyppl Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 4:37pm
I focus wrote:
happyppl wrote:
I focus wrote:

"focus just want to point out the"allegations" of corruption of atsic were proven to be true, caused by nepotism and cronyism and incompetence, and it caused a lot of angst and disunity in first nations communities."

Yep think it was likely worse than that.

"ergo, to me the voice to me will be another beaurocracy filled with mates and rellies churning out propaganda about how good it is."

That's possible but good governance and over sight would be key.[/quo..te]

Good gov and oversight from oz beaurocracy? lol.
Cynical outlook from me but like the "blues bros" movie quote " if the shit fits wear it".
I would much rather see da $billions spent on regional infrastucture and homelessness rather than a new govt agency that's full of uni degree airheads.
My experience with govt agencys is cover up their failures and blame it on lack of resources and funds.
This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.
Just an excuse for pollies etc to "shoehorn their kids" onto cushy jobs.
Allso the fed and state govt are biggest employers in cntry, we don't need more ...except medical, defence, ses, cfs, you know usefull ppl.
Not pencil pushers with a big chip on shoulder and mega confirmation bias attitude who try to lay "guilt trip" on this generation for the imperialist empire rule of 200yrs ago.
This voice is divisive ...anyway had to say something cos no one wants to see the "elephant in the room".

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I focus Thursday, 29 Dec 2022 at 11:10pm
happyppl wrote:

This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.

Hmm, unfortunately the in your face statistics (and The Gap report) say other wise and its not working, still if you have evidence to back you claim would like the see it cheers.

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happyppl Friday, 30 Dec 2022 at 4:11am
I focus wrote:
happyppl wrote:

This referendum is a sham, first nation ppls have ample agency's and funds to help them and we are all equall under the law.

Hmm, unfortunately the in your face statistics (and The Gap report) say other wise and its not working, still if you have evidence to back you claim would like the see it cheers.

If "it's" (?) not working ?? Lot's of reasons for it, substance abuse, dv and some parents telling kids "go out and steal from vhitey cos they stole everything from us"...no bull this happens.
I know this will upset the woke and pc mob out there and think me racist but why are the communities after all these years still have problems and our fault?
Allso the rio tinto unesco wrld heritage listed cave kaboom! event where all local, state and federal agencies had 12mnths notice of their intent and scomos govt investigation said "no knew of their intent". and that lie is now accepted.
So a report says "it's" not working...wow!...stateing the obvious.
Focus something has to be done but this rio tinto cover up... i have no trust in our govt institutions and this "voice" sounds like a pr stint to me, good intentions,

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Supafreak Saturday, 7 Jan 2023 at 3:15pm
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happyppl Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 3:41pm
Supafreak wrote:

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2023/01/07/fighting-voice. Marcia Langton
Fighting for a Voice

supafreak thankyou 4 the info, i have not logged on since my post cos i was expecting a barrage of irate responses and am astonished at the silence, i knew that my opinion was aligned with lnp's...for the record i despise howard abbot scomo et all, neoliberal policies, privatisation of public utilities and the secret state "shenanigans" of these "flogs" etc etc.
first time i logged on a box popped up wanting my email address "to continue reading this article" i cancelled, had another go, no probs no email adress request and read it.
i found it ironic (?) that the author a proffessor was quoting "animal farm" to denigrate ppl who disagree with her and her powerfull cohorts who are all on the govt payroll...talk about "the kettle calling the pot black", oh cheeze i did'nt mean that to sound like a pun, another anomaly would be "shooting oneself in the foot".
i found the request (demand?) for my email an invasion of my privacy especially on such a sensitive and politically charged topic.
all that article has done is imo proven the fact the key instigators behind this voice are not our first nations ppl but govt beauracrats wanting another "agency" for their self grandiosement..sic
and a future career for their rellies and mates all at the expense of the plebs.
it allso shows the low standard of discourse we can expect from these academic "leaders".
george orwell wrote "animal farm" i think? and "1984"? he was spot on!
if anyone knows this proffessor please forward my post but don't give out my email adress, she may send round the "knackers" truck for me...hahaha

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Supafreak Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 4:30pm

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and a vote either yes or no , I will be voting yes .

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blackers Sunday, 8 Jan 2023 at 4:35pm

Happyppl, that request for your email is from the publishers of the Saturday Paper, nothing to do with Marcia Langton.
As for your disagreement with her views, each to their own. She is a respected community leader and many people agree with her.