The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 10:19am

Quote not working but Brutus said

"Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation

How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness??? "

Germany and Germans dont all have one collective guilt mentality, they as you say are split on opinion.

And it would be wrong to judge Germans or Germany as a country on the actions of a minority, most no longer alive.

And to suggest those that say its the past and nothing to do with us become neo nazis, is just crazy talk.

Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity.

Every single ethnic group on earth has ugly history's in some way, most countries have been fought over and blood spilt.

Even indigenous history is full of tribal conflict, misogyny even cannabilism, but im sure very few expect current Aboriginals to feel guilt for this.

People should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of their ethicitys past or present.

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brutus Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 10:42am
indo-dreaming wrote:

[qoute]

Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation

How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness???

Germany and Germans dont all have one collective guilt mentality, they as you say are split on opinion.

And it would be wrong to judge Germans or Germany as a country on the actions of a minority, most no longer alive.

And to suggest those that say its the past and nothing to do with us become neo nazis, is just crazy talk.

Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity.

Every single ethnic group on earth has ugly history's in some way, most countries have been fought over and blood spilt, even indigenous history and culture is full of tribal conflict, misogyny even cannabilism, but im sure very few expect current Aboriginals to feel guilt for this.

People should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of their ethicitys past or present.

Indo ,Reality is a bitch sometimes , but to deny reality of historic deeds and misdeeds....is well pretty naïve to say the least....
.you never answered my question if you found out your current lifestyle/riches was based on slavery/genocide and sexual abuse.....would that be OK because it wasn't you?

where did you get that Germany doesn't have a National Guilt and that it was a minority who are no longer alive?
The truth is that Germany as a Nation fell under the Nazi Regime and was part of the Holocaust.....the whole Nation was responsible , which they accepted and took ownership of as a Nation , not a minority as you say......now Germany is one of the most progressive respected Nations......
Then you say ,"Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity." the Neo Nazis are the ones who refuse to own the past ,who did not learn the lessons of the 30-40's.....

Just wondering if you celebrate Australia day or ANZAC day ...or you think that no sense celebrating something from our past?

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indo-dreaming Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 11:29am

Do you really think all germans supported the atrocities that went down under the Nazi power?

Off course not

In regard to Australia being based on those things you say or based on the suffering of all the convicts.

I like most others don't dwell on those things, as understand life isn't perfect.

We learn the basic history we learn from it we empathise with how it must have been, be it negatives indigenous aspectd or negative convict aspects, but that's where it ends.

We move forward and look at the positives of being lucky to live in such a great country, if i dwelled on negatives of the past be it here or elsewhere in the world where my family heritage goes back too or other countries they lived or just all the negatives around the world past or present, id be a sad bitter person.

In all honesty i dont celebrate those days as such, but i probably should make more of an effort to do so, especially Anzac day in respect of those that fought for what we have, especially as my old man went to Vietnam and walks in the parade, i also feel guilty for my own actions in saying silly things about war etc too him when i was a lefty, i have regret for saying those things.

In regard to Australia day i should celebrate it for just an appreciation of being so lucky to live in such a great country and the history be it good or bad, because thre reality is i woudnt be here without that history, id most likely be in the sad depressing shit hole of UK or Holland.

If there was one day to show respect to first people, instead of a lot of various dates that seems to dilute things, it would be the same, im sure id be too lazy to celebrate it as such, but id take the view that i probably should out of respect.

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brutus Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 12:01pm

Indo ..yes the majority of Germans were part of the Nazi Vision to become the superior Aaryn race who would rule the world.

Suffering of convicts , ah they were criminals under English Law!

Your basic history has proven to be incorrect and it's constantly being revised , so we need to open to History changing as some of the old history was written by the perpetrators....so what you knew is no longer correct, which means your opinions are based on a false narrative!

If you can celebrate ANZAC day, which was a 100years ago....according to your philosophy.....it's in the past has nothing to do with me , so why even acknowledge ANZAC Day?

Because you only see the now , you are doomed to commit the same mistakes of the past....."if i dwelled on negatives of the past be it here or elsewhere in the world where my family heritage goes back too or other countries they lived or just all the negatives around the world past or present, id be a sad bitter person."
and therein lies the difference between us....the truth/mistakes of History, if accepted , and actions that are taken to remedy the mistakes of the past....will not make you a sad bitter person , but an enlightened Australian proud to be part of a new Australia that is inclusive of all...not just those having a great life at the expense of others!

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 1:16pm

Brutus 'the truth/mistakes of History, if accepted , and actions that are taken to remedy the mistakes of the past..."

As has been repeatedly said we applaud the truth and we want to avoid making the same mistakes in the past .

So we need to remedy the mistakes of the past that we did not make . I am ok with this but I want to know the details .

How far back to we go ? What do think is needed to remedy all the hurt felt ? Do we need to pay more money ? Give back all the land in Sydney ? Give more political power ? Create a special class of Australian that is indigenous ( what percent of indigenous blood is needed ) ?

Also what are the details need in a Treaty to remedy the past ?

PS I love ANZAC day .

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groundswell Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 1:28pm

Brutus have you spent much time with WA indigenous people?
Like out remote areas where some are worse than Gero and Carnarvon? they fight and almost kill each other ive seen it thats why i left geraldton and decided not to live in Carnarvon. close to red bluff/gnaraloo. plenty of well paid work in carnarvon but nobody wants to live there as there are so many thieves you cant leave your car unattended at woolies or coles. I have a couple of indigenous friends in gero too, one is super friendly and doesnt get aggro ever even when he is getting robbed by other black fellas with a knife. ive seen it. My other black fella mate got a broken leg by buying a cask of red wine and drinking it on his front lawn. A group of black fellas walked up to him asked for the cask and he refused so they broke his leg!
He was too scared to report it to police or even ask for compensation from some charity or whatever its called. If thats how they treat each other what the hell are white fellas suppose to think?

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goofyfoot Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 2:06pm

To Brutus’s point that all Australians in this day and age should feel “guilty” about what happened to Indiginous Australians, and on the other side Indo’s point about why should he (we) feel guilty about something none of us had anything to do with, I wonder how many people reading this that are non-indiginous truely feel guilt about what happened and the on going repercussions today.

Yes it was atrocious and inhumane and straight up fucking disgusting.
But does that mean white Australians today need to feel guilty about what happened ???

Can we acknowledge it and discuss it and try and move forward without feeling guilt?

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goofyfoot Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 2:47pm

Obviously I don't have any answers, just putting the question out there

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GuySmiley Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 3:53pm

The comparisons b/w AU and NZ are stark in how indigenous people and culture are accepted and celebrated. I would imagine for your average NZer a source of personal and national pride that the past is acknowledged and present is celebrated shoulder to shoulder to make the country culturally richer .... anyway that’s my take on a country I love visiting.

https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/

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Island Bay Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 4:34pm

Lots of people are trying to tear that apart, Guy S.

In NZ now, it's all racism this racism that. It's the differences between us, the slights and 'hurt' - not the common traits and lives and hopes and love of NZ.

20 years here, and lots to be proud of, but fcuk it's not looking good at the moment - from my perspective.

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Optimist Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 4:36pm

You can’t carry guilt for the sins of your forefathers. Everyone pays for their own sin. You do however acknowledge the past so it never happens again. There are a lot of people on earth in the same boat. Also you can’t carry hate for what happened to your forefathers…does no one any good.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 5:51pm
brutus wrote:

Indo ..yes the majority of Germans were part of the Nazi Vision to become the superior Aaryn race who would rule the world.

Suffering of convicts , ah they were criminals under English Law!

Your basic history has proven to be incorrect and it's constantly being revised , so we need to open to History changing as some of the old history was written by the perpetrators....so what you knew is no longer correct, which means your opinions are based on a false narrative!

If you can celebrate ANZAC day, which was a 100years ago....according to your philosophy.....it's in the past has nothing to do with me , so why even acknowledge ANZAC Day?

Because you only see the now , you are doomed to commit the same mistakes of the past....."if i dwelled on negatives of the past be it here or elsewhere in the world where my family heritage goes back too or other countries they lived or just all the negatives around the world past or present, id be a sad bitter person."
and therein lies the difference between us....the truth/mistakes of History, if accepted , and actions that are taken to remedy the mistakes of the past....will not make you a sad bitter person , but an enlightened Australian proud to be part of a new Australia that is inclusive of all...not just those having a great life at the expense of others!

That is a terrible generalisation about Germans and as far as i understand not true or at least not provable, there was many resistance groups, tens of thousands of Germans lost their life's often executed for standing up to Nazism, imagine how many remained silent out of fear, that number is unknown, we dont know what was in the hearts and heads of most Germans.

History is occasionally updated sometimes other known perspective are added, but that is the exception to the rule, most history is written in stone, known history is generally correct to say otherwise is just untrue.

It's irrelevant if they were criminals or not, people are people, they were still taken from their home country and shipped to the other side of the world more often than not never to see their families again, about one in ten convicts died on the journey, as we know often their crimes were extremely trivial, apparently the more serious criminals like murderers or rapist were normally punished in Britain with death, homosexuality was also punishable by death however even turning a blind eye to known homosexual activity could be seen as a crime, there is records showing instances of convicts sent to Australia for exactly this.

This is also a chapter of the dark aspects of modern Australia's early history, but is it worth dwelling on?.

As i said i don't celebrate ANZAC day, i don't think celebrate is the right word anyway, it's a day of reflection, to acknowledge sacrifices made by others.

As i mentioned I'm not at all opposed to a seperate day for reflection of indigenous Australians i doubt most people would be, but Australia day is not that day, a completely different day and date would be much more appropriate. (maybe we should leave that whole debate for another day though)

Just because the events of the past have nothing to do with me, does not mean we cant reflect on events, it's good to remember an event for all kinds of reasons, remembrance, reflection, respect, acknowledgment, gratitude and yes learn from the event and not repeat it.

You see colonisation as only a negative event because of your ethnic background, i acknowledge that and respect that and can even have empathy for your view, but for many it's also a positive event because without colonisation all us non Indigenous people would not be here, and wouldn't call Australia home.

I don't agree with Hutchy that Aboriginal people as one collective hold resentment, i think that is too much of a generalisation, but with all respect its clear you hold a lot of resentment towards those you view as the continuation of colonist.

Personally i dont think that's a healthy attitude to have for mind or soul, im not a Christian i don't believe in god, but i still have a respect and understanding of aspects of Christianity that are important like forgiveness and understand that letting go of resentment and truly forgiving is just as much about the healing for those holding resentment than those they hold it against.

Anyway im sure you dont agree, im going to try to leave it at that and just try to agree to disagree, but it is hard as i am opinionated :P

And ive got to look after my 1 year old son and almost 8 year old daughter all weekend as my wife is working, so im going to be trying to kill a lot of time when my boy has his naps :D so even a little harder especially if weather turns to shit as forecast looks like it will.

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etarip Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 8:09pm

Actually Indo, while there were *some* German resistance groups, they didn’t number in the ‘many’ nor ‘effective’. There were a lot of Germans who suffered under Nazism, this was because they were gay, Jewish, Roma, disabled, socialist or god knows what else, but not because they were part of a resistance.
What’s remarkable in the case of Nazism is how totally bought into it the German people were. It had its foundation in nationalism and a sense of restorative justice after WWI / Weimar. Once its excesses were identified there was little room for resistance as the apparatus of a totalitarian state had been bedded in. And ‘German’ culture was still heavily ‘Prussian’ influenced, which had a militaristic bent to start with. What came out after the war was that many Germans had seen the moral repugnance, but very few had done anything about it.
“First they came for the socialists, but I said nothing because I was a socialist”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
For me this is the scary intersection of nationalism, ideology and authoritarianism. IMHO, China’s on that track.

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etarip Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 8:12pm

Don’t get me started on ANZAC Day.

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bluediamond Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 10:03pm

Alot of the sentiment above is, it happened too long ago, had nothing to do with me i feel bad about it, but what can I do? We're all Australians. Right?
I posted yesterday a quote about how past injustices if left unaddressed can then contribute to us, as in this generation being judged on our inaction to do what it takes to remedy past injustices.
I have a great idea to start with. Why not give their fking country back????? I guess that's a sacrifice none of us are willing to make right? So where does that leave us morally as a collective. Genuine question.
(And say this continent isn't wholeheartedly returned to its rightful owners, where's the middle ground on this because that's what we're really trying to find. Can many of us non indigenous actually be prepared to sacrifice our somewhat privileged lifestyle for the greater good? And how does that look? That is the real question)

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 8:02am

Blue - your great idea .Why not give their fking country back?????

Do we all have to leave as well ? I mentioned at the start of this thread that as Australia is a democracy at least 50% of the people need to agree with your great idea .

I said then that your other ideas were also unrealistic . It didn't have any effect .

If this is an example of the detail you want in a Treaty it will NEVER happen .

To clarify , I don't believe that ALL Aboriginals hold resentments for the past that stops them moving forward with confidence and determination . If it is MOST this is very sad .

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 8:27am

Blue - maybe we can give them there land back in some way ?

It depends , as always , on the detail .

Will I still own my 650 s/m that is on their land which has my home on it ? The place where I put all my savings and money from a bank which I have worked hard to pay back . The place where I keep the home and garden looking good .

Or do I have to start paying rent ?

The devil is ALWAYS in the detail .

You and Brutus will not give me the details .

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brutus Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 10:44am

Indo what you have written back to me is pretty scary shit and show you don't know history very well......you show empathy towards the Germans and what about the 10's of thousand s of Germans who died....well 6 m Jews were slaughtered , called the Holocaust leaving Germany with the mental scars of trying to eliminate Jews in Europe....there was and is a collective guilt that kids of today still have to deal with...try reading for a history lesson and how you got it so wrong....https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/what-is-the-holocaust/

Next, yeah, now you show empathy towards criminals because they were displaced from their home country and sent to Australia....how about at the same time slavery in England was alive and well, where English Colonial slavers just stole people in Africa and shipped them to the USA for slaves....any empathy for them?
So yes we are still learning about the affects of slavery and dealing with new facts just about everyday about the cause and affect that Colonialism had on all indigenous First Nations peoples....rewriting history as more facts come to light.....I see this every day becuase I look, care and want to understand why todays world is now becoming so fragmented .....

History shows us that there is a collective German national Guilt that has been passed down from generation to generation...try reading a German Philosopher and his take on collective guilt https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/16/bernhard-schlink-germany-b...

This shows how important it is to embrace the guilt and use it as a building block for creating a better society as the Germans have shown us!

So Germany has shown that dealing with the reality's of it's past , which is horrific, accepting and understanding why , is the foundation for healing and dealing with the ramifications of past crimes and issues .....just like we should here in OZ....actually we are doing it now..it's a philosophical question that is resonating the Majority of Australians.....https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-black-parliament-victorian...

last but not least Indo.......I see colonialism as an aberration of mankind....History has shown us that Colonialism was a dark part of mankinds history and we are still dealing with affects of it today, so when you say " You see colonisation as only a negative event because of your ethnic background, i acknowledge that and respect that and can even have empathy for your view, but for many it's also a positive event because without colonisation all us non Indigenous people would not be here, and wouldn't call Australia home.
I don't agree with Hutchy that Aboriginal people as one collective hold resentment, i think that is too much of a generalisation, but with all respect its clear you hold a lot of resentment towards those you view as the continuation of colonist."

So Indo this is where we differ , where Germany has shown the way to a better society......because you have a good life in Australia today that's all that counts , it doesn't matter how you got your lifestyle...even if someone stole /murdered dispossessed someone else...you would accept someone else's stolen property because it wasn't you and is now in the past ....

the Nazis lasted about 15 years ...colonialism was 100's....

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brutus Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 10:44am
etarip wrote:

Don’t get me started on ANZAC Day.

oh please fire up,LOL!

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san Guine Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 11:08am

This is a great fictional read (and a film, which I haven't seen) re collective guilt in post war Germany.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101299.The_Reader

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 11:16am

Brutus you say "I see colonialism as an aberration of mankind."

This is your main problem imo .

Colonization has always been mankind's most important activity .

It caused humans to move out of Africa . Aboriginals to come to Australia ( changed the flora and fauna ) . Torres Strait Islander peoples to come to Australia ( were the Aboriginals here first and were they displaced on their arrival ? ) Polynesians to go to NZ ( changed the flora and fauna ) . Humans to go to North and South America .

Humans have always wanted to see what was over the hill , across the river or across the ocean . It is in our DNA .

Their movement always has effects on what was there first . Always negative .

Should any of these people feel guilty for the changes their arrival made ?

Whites were made slaves by the muslims thousands of years ago . Every colour of people have owned slaves .

We should all have empathy for the horror people suffered due to this practice .

Do the South Americans need to feel guilty as their ancestors sacrificed humans ? Headhunters , cannibals ?

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views from the ... Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 12:24pm

Colonization is natures greatest activity.
From atoms to cells, bacteria, viruses, plants to humans.
Will never be stopped!!!

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 1:40pm

"Resentments embody a basic choice to refuse to forgive, an unwillingness to let bygones be bygones and bury the hatchet.

We review and rehash our painful past, even as we profess to want to let go of it. We do so because we believe the illusion that by belaboring our resentment, we will somehow achieve the justice we believe we are due.

We cling to a futile need to be "right," which overrides the capacity to heal and be at peace with ourselves.

We hang on to perceived offences because we don't know any other way of coming to grips with painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.

We need to learn to let go of resentment, because living with it can only bring us chronic punishment and pain, and prevent us from building up other relationships based on love, nurture, and support.

Letting go of a resentment is not a gift to the person you resent. It is, rather, a gift to yourself. "

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GuySmiley Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 1:58pm

Very eloquent info where did you cut and paste that from?

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 2:11pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Very eloquent info where did you cut and paste that from?

Yes cut and pasted hence quotation marks.

"Forgiveness - 10 Steps To Letting Go Of Resentment"

https://www.marksichel.com/Forgiveness10StepsToLettingGoOfResentment.en....

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brutus Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 2:56pm

Indo...now there you go , I think you do have resentment about being right ( pardon the pun,LOL!) and the idea of forgiveness is really needed in the current Climate of blame/anger and misinformation.
I have constantly posted that there is no blame ,and a need for forgiveness...but firstly we need History to show us what not to blame and what we are forgiving...so we in Australia are in transition towards a better Australia.....where healing from past actions is recognized , both Black and white.....the only real resentment is when people are constantly ignoring the facts provided to them and refuse to change their opinions when new facts come to light...very frustrating which creates resentment, then anger...then it's an emotional shit fight where no-one wins......

indo-dreaming wrote:

"Resentments embody a basic choice to refuse to forgive, an unwillingness to let bygones be bygones and bury the hatchet.

We review and rehash our painful past, even as we profess to want to let go of it. We do so because we believe the illusion that by belaboring our resentment, we will somehow achieve the justice we believe we are due.

We cling to a futile need to be "right," which overrides the capacity to heal and be at peace with ourselves.

We hang on to perceived offences because we don't know any other way of coming to grips with painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.

We need to learn to let go of resentment, because living with it can only bring us chronic punishment and pain, and prevent us from building up other relationships based on love, nurture, and support.

Letting go of a resentment is not a gift to the person you resent. It is, rather, a gift to yourself. "

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brutus Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 2:58pm
san Guine wrote:

This is a great fictional read (and a film, which I haven't seen) re collective guilt in post war Germany.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101299.The_Reader

San great author , not sure you saw this link about the author , incredible perspective on Post WWII Germany....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/16/bernhard-schlink-germany-b...

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brutus Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 3:03pm

the some good news ..I notice even Jeff Kennett is part of the treaty talks.....https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-black-parliament-victorian...

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 3:05pm

Brutus you say ".the only real resentment is when people are constantly ignoring the facts provided to them and refuse to change their opinions when new facts come to light..."

That is not how you come across to me . You exhibit huge resentment to colonization , capitalism , stolen generation , genocide etc .

They are facts .

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blindboy Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:02pm

brutus your views are so enlightened and hopeful, I hope you are spreading them far and wide.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:08pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

That is not how you come across to me . You exhibit huge resentment to colonization , capitalism , stolen generation , genocide etc .

They are facts .

100% it's impossible to deny, and it will eat him up.

And people like BB encouraging it is really sad.

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:38pm

Brutus - Kennet being involved IS good news imo .

Love him or hate him he is a man of action and has a strong voice in Victoria . Much better than Turnbull in trying to get a real outcome . I am VERY pleased .

I must admit I am surprised you like him ! If SN had a search function I would check to see if it is the first positive thing you have ever said about Kennet .

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bluediamond Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:55pm

@hutchy said 'if SN had a search function, I would check to see its the first positive thing you've said about Kennet'
Yep hutchy. You would. Weird [email protected]#t.

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Fliplid Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:59pm

From someone worth listening to and relevant to the turn of conversation here

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 7:44pm

5:20 onwards was the good bit, you have to really respect those that suffer so much but can still completely forgive, it wouldn't be an easy thing.

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happyppl Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:04am
GuySmiley wrote:

The comparisons b/w AU and NZ are stark in how indigenous people and culture are accepted and celebrated. I would imagine for your average NZer a source of personal and national pride that the past is acknowledged and present is celebrated shoulder to shoulder to make the country culturally richer .... anyway that’s my take on a country I love visiting.

https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/

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happyppl Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:14am

Gs before tbe maoris came to nz the mori ori (?) were the indigenous ppl and they were peacefull happy ppl non violent.
The maoris enslaved and ate them...no bull.

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GuySmiley Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:25am

Yes I’ve heard that also happyppl

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:33am

Blue - It was a joke . Sorry , I should have said I believed everyone on the Left hated Kennet with a passion . You would understand that .

Even though he has obviously done good work . Great President of Beyond Blue and picked a wonderful person to succeed him - Julia Gillard . Now I hope he can add a strong and pragmatic view to ensure that a Treaty helps our First Nations and is seen as attractive to the non indigenous .

I couldn't read the article and am unsure how a Treaty is implemented . Do we need to vote on it ?

Not a question for you Blue .

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brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:29am

Indo , really you are worried for me , LOL?

indo-dreaming wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:

That is not how you come across to me . You exhibit huge resentment to colonization , capitalism , stolen generation , genocide etc .
They are facts .

100% it's impossible to deny, and it will eat him up.
And people like BB encouraging it is really sad.

Firstly Hutchy's facts are just his opinion , based on what I have written here , and the links I have posted....all of a sudden resentment is eating me up because you tried to use the word resentment , really Indo , so now you have a new descriptive resentment . I could say the same about you and Hutchy! You both resent what I post here as it threatens your view of the World and Australia . As usual it's now about your perception , trying to discredit what I post with some pretty lame ideas/statements on me personally , which is typical of the right whingers when they don't have facts or unable to continue debating an issue, attack the man and his credibility.........now that's really sad !!

So what you guys call 100% undeniable facts, says it all......facts you just make up when needed to try and feel like you are having a win ....or if your notion of the past, present and future is threatened......which is happening here.

You think that BB supporting what I post is sad ....the real problem here is that "you guys are Klingons " holding onto old out dated views that the facts show are out of sync with the rest of Australia.....you are an ever decreasing minority , which for me is proof that Australia is healing and moving in the right direction towards a better Australia for everybody!

So todays great story is about one of our New Senators and her fight for Aboriginal women and sacred sites , .....educate yourselves and have a read.....

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/24/i-am-a-survivor-a...

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brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:41am
indo-dreaming wrote:

5:20 onwards was the good bit, you have to really respect those that suffer so much but can still completely forgive, it wouldn't be an easy thing.

FFS Indo , you show empathy towards a holocaust victim , who makes a statement about not hating and you agree forgiveness wouldn't be an easy thing......as long as we don't bring up the First peoples issues in our backyard...such as the White Australia policy and the Stolen generation.........FFS it looks like you have no problems with empathy for white Jews, meanwhile BLM and our Indigenous Australians.......????

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brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:42am
views from the cockpit wrote:

Colonization is natures greatest activity.
From atoms to cells, bacteria, viruses, plants to humans.
Will never be stopped!!!

Colonization is very different to colonialism!

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:45am

Brutus - when I first joined this thread I asked how we can help our First Nations reduce their resentment to the past horrors . Not all feel this of course . I was abused for asking this .

Unfortunately , I do know that resentments are a major contributor to substance addiction . Stu has already criticized this view . If interested you can check " al anon " for my knowledge on this topic .

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:21am

@Brutus

Not worried as such but more a type of disappointed in the lack of...mmm not sure of the word...but to be blunt i dont think your being honest with yourself.

I avoided using the word resentment a few weeks ago when Hutchy was because in all honestly i have no idea how all indigenous people feel, i think it would be a varied view no ethnic group thinks or feels all the same, and there is huge differences between groups that live in remote areas, regional areas and city areas and even bigger differences between individuals and communities or Indigenous people and those that identify as indigenous.

But the more we have talked the more i can see you clearly have lot's of resentment, the fact you feel non indigenous people should harbour some sort of guilt clearly shows this.

Im still not even sure if this on going guilt we should harbour is based on ethnicity we must be white and english ethnicity?. or is it just something anyone that decided to live in Australia suddenly takes on???

You still havent answer this...im very curious to know.

You say our view's are outdated, i think there is three views.

1. A very outdated one that see's indigenous people as lesser, apart from an extremely small minority this is left in the past.

2. One that seems progressive but seems to want to elevate indigenous culture to some magical place, talks about truth telling but then ignores important aspects like problems of culture, and tries to shift blame to others via things like colonialism.

As i pointed out, it's not something those in PNG can do, but apparently according to you these similar issues seen there (even worse actually) are also the result of a much shorter period of colonialism that had minimal practical effect.

3. A more progressive view that says, stop making excuses and own your problems, you are no less than me but you are also not better than me, your culture like any culture has positives and negatives, we are here to help you but we can't make the changes needed only you guys can.

If the mindset never shifts from two to three, nothing will every change.

That's it plain and simple anything else is an excuse.

But like i said the other day, end of the day its completely irrelevant to me it doesn't affect me, outside of this thread its only something i give a passing thought too when i read or see the topic, and i honestly dont care about the money that will be wasted, its irreverent it will be wasted on something else anyway, things like treaties etc also irrelevant to me, id actually prefer they happen, I'm even leaning towards changing Australia day, both purely so people can then see these things change nothing, in exactly the same way Krudd saying Sorry changed nothing.

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GuySmiley Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:51am

hey hutchy, addictions can come in all shapes and sizes including relentless commenting online forums.

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brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 12:42pm

Indo...if I am not being honest with myself , is that why you dismiss nearly everything that I post ?

If I understand correctly you came to Australia as an immigrant in the early 60's?

Was this under the White Australia policy ?

I think you see resentment where in fact its , frustration and sadness as I learn more about Australia....having said that I have never felt so positive on where Australia is heading as a Nation and the incorporation of our First peoples culture good and bad into the National identity......this is happening now......and increasingly, nearly all Australians are learning about the First peoples current issues, past injustices that are being exposed , so where there was once sadness and anger , there is a genuine healing taking place which is all about forgiveness , and rebuilding a better future for all of us no matter what creed or color.

so your 3 categories.......

1) this is the Terra Nulus syndrome, where indigenous people were not considered humans and were treaded accordingly.....this is pure white colonialism!
can you comment positively on the White Australia policy?

2) I think you are trying to say do-gooders who try and understand the affects of Colonialism , and the negative affects the colonial ideology has brought to all of us.........no blame , just view the facts , be sad and angry , but the issues need healing by all! of us ...you will not acknowledge the problems and why, so that's why I believe you are becoming a relic of a bygone era, thankfully !

3) your so called progressive view....is typical of the right....take no responsibility for the past , don't learn the lessons of the past , put the responsibility back on the victims and ask them to solve the problems that have been created by others.....which is you creating and us and them situation.....very very divisive ....
" we are to help you , but we can't help you , only you guys can!" wow spoken like someone who doesn't want Australia to become a cosmopolitan Nation.....and passes the buck back to the victims.
We are all Australians , so your point #3 shows how you don't see Australia's First peoples as your own which is the base root of the problem......

the fact that you say..... "But like i said the other day, end of the day its completely irrelevant to me it doesn't affect me, outside of this thread its only something i give a passing thought too when i read or see the topic, and i honestly dont care about the money that will be wasted, its irreverent it will be wasted on something else anyway, things like treaties etc also irrelevant to me, id actually prefer they happen, I'm even leaning towards changing Australia day, both purely so people can then see these things change nothing, in exactly the same way Krudd saying Sorry changed nothing."

in your World nothing changed by saying sorry....in your world you don't care about what is an Australian as it's irrelevant , just as the treaty is irrelevant......

So it really is New Australians like you, that need to have a history lessons and deal with the current day issues that the past has delivered to us all...as a collective......and that Indo is why I keep saying yours and Hutchy's views are from a bygone era....your views are now a minority.....but we keep learning , forgiving, healing and we are a lot better for it!

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gragagan Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 1:25pm

Just my take on a very sensitive issue. The way I see it, every non-indigenous person living in Australia today is reaping the benefits of past injustices against Indigenous Australians. It doesn't matter if your descendants came here on the first fleet, or if you moved here last week. Every Australian resident needs to recognise what happened, accept that it did happen and that it was wrong, and find ways to heal past injustices. I'm not sure how though.
Just the other week I was researching gold around Ballina, and came across the story of the Black Head massacre. Never heard of it before.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171989519

Just one of many from around here it seems.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:21pm

@Brutus

You have previously said you also believe all the issues* in PNG are also a result of colonisation, which had far less impact on the majority of the populations lives and ended almost 50 years ago and 99% of the population in PNG are Papuans.

So how do they sort out their issues?

They are already self governed, no one left to sign to treaties with, 99.999% black so basically no issues with racism

* In many cases worst issues than in Aboriginal Australian communities.

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brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:30pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

@Brutus

You have previously said you also believe all the issues* in PNG are also a result of colonisation, which had far less impact on the majority of the populations lives and ended almost 50 years ago and 99% of the population in PNG are Papuans.

So how do they sort out their issues?

They are already self governed, no one left to sign to treaties with, 99.999% black so basically no issues with racism

* In many cases worst issues than in Aboriginal Australian communities.

Indo, nah wasn't me on PNG....I don't know a lot about PNG and it's issues .......are you able to answer a question I keep putting to you.....how do you view the White Australia policy ?

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brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:37pm
gragagan wrote:

Just my take on a very sensitive issue. The way I see it, every non-indigenous person living in Australia today is reaping the benefits of past injustices against Indigenous Australians. It doesn't matter if your descendants came here on the first fleet, or if you moved here last week. Every Australian resident needs to recognise what happened, accept that it did happen and that it was wrong, and find ways to heal past injustices. I'm not sure how though.
Just the other week I was researching gold around Ballina, and came across the story of the Black Head massacre. Never heard of it before.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171989519

Just one of many from around here it seems.

yeah a lot of stories coming out now...you hit the nail on the head...."WE, need to heal " , but first se need to learn what to heal from.....which is part of the healing process.....

Yes there was a problem!
1) The Problem has had an adverse affect on us all !
2) So now lets look at all the issues that have created even more issues today....and "WE , will all try and understand the issues and then we can open a dialogue on how best to fix it.
3) We then come up with solutions and actions...

pretty bloody simple for some of us!