The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

tubeshooter's picture
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tubeshooter Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:19pm

A lot people with a profile make public "gestures" against all sorts of things, especially when they feel pressured to do so for various reasons. Very few of them actually follow through or still have a proper understanding of what they're actually protesting. Take a knee , don't take a knee , I can't see it changing shit in real life . As for making people aware of the problem , ffs , the clueless aren't going to change their collective opinion over this sort of stuff. In fact it puts a lot of those who might be coming around straight back on the back foot.
This revolution won't be televised .

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sypkan Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:29pm

stop talking such sense tubeshooter

it's almost like you live in reality...

the age is postmodernism baby!

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Vic Local Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:33pm

"self important righteous upstarts in a sports team imposing their little ip fetish onto the rest of the team... not cool..."
Whatever champ.
Professional athletes take knees to send messages to fans and players saying racism is unacceptable in their sport.
And I think you'll find that sports clubs and administrators (professional and amateur) typically have a zero tolerance policy for racists within a team. The last thing any club or league needs is some toxic fucker making life miserable for other players.
Anti racism in sports is not the sole domain of righteous upstarts. It's the norm and thank fuck for that.

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sypkan Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:49pm

and further to tubeshooter's points...

in andym's minefield podcast way back, about being woke and cancelled and stuff...

waleed ally made the point, ...after a rather waffling and contemplative discussion... that.... don't you want people to do the right thing with conviction? and by way of their own volition?

you know, actually believe in, and want to do the right thing...

rather than the contemporary culture of the dominating mob demanding ultimate submission?

because all you are getting is a public statement of compliance

pure lip service...

so so evident in this age of corporate wokism....

but I don't expect the indoctrinated to understsnd that... some of you clearly feel its a competition of sorts...

a tussle for power

of social media narrative control

or something...

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sypkan Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:40pm

key words...

power

control

ultimate submission

it's all sounding a bit...

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:48pm

...WWE?

They don't call you Sepp for nuthin'!

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sypkan Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:53pm

""self important righteous upstarts in a sports team imposing their little ip fetish onto the rest of the team... not cool..."
Whatever champ.
Professional athletes take knees to send messages to fans and players saying racism is unacceptable in their sport.
And I think you'll find that sports clubs and administrators (professional and amateur) typically have a zero tolerance policy for racists within a team. The last thing any club or league needs is some toxic fucker making life miserable for other players.
Anti racism in sports is not the sole domain of righteous upstarts. It's the norm and thank fuck for that."

so there's been no in team battles over who wants to kneel?

well clearly there has been...

and so those that resist are clearly 'racist'?

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sypkan Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:52pm

...CCP?

china boy!

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sypkan Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:51pm

I was thinking fascist actually...

but if the cap fits

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Roker Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 8:21pm

Slick's more of a Camel Clutch cat than a taking the knee dude. Say it Slick. People of the world and intelligent Americans unite!

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 9:37am

As I have said , but Viclocal can't get, I am happy for anyone to take a knee to support BLM but definitely NOT during the paying of their national anthem .

Brutus and others claimed he was a racist as he was white .

Interesting that other lefties are now supporting De Kock .

Waleed

'Especially when it came out that he was just told on the way to the ground and all of that sort of stuff,' Aly told the program on Thursday night.

'I think that there's a thing that sport has to think about here, which is, it's one thing for sport to take a stand...

'It's another thing when you compel every player to take the same stand, especially when you compel them a couple of hours before a game.'

Aly said it was unfair of Cricket South Africa to spring the directive on players and that though he himself would have complied by taking the knee, he understands why de Koch took a defiant stand.

'There was no conversation and suddenly he's meant to process this and take on something that the game or Cricket South Africa and a statement that they want to make as his own personal one,' Aly continued.

'Yeah, if I was in his position, I'm taking the knee. But I can kind of understand why it would trip a wire.

'It's a really weird situation for a player to be in.'

Armstrong

He has backed down from his fiery rant and described de Koch's apology as 'incredible'.

'Full credit it to him for coming out with such a strong statement, really explaining what it was all about,' he said.

Earlier in the segment, Armstrong, a former AFL star, explained why he 'saw red' and reacted so strongly to the controversy a day earlier.

'I felt so visceral about the fact that this player was not going to take a knee in support of the Black Lives Matter movement,' he said,

'While I understand that it can be tokenistic for big sport to go out there and take a knee, but what are they really doing behind it?

'It still means a lot to see it. It means a lot to me. I feel it. And I felt myself getting more and more angry about this.'

Anyone else who bagged him yesterday willing to me man enough to back down ?

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 12:35pm

Another case of someone being treated unfairly for being white and male . It happens on this thread tooooo regularly . I have been accused of having a White mentality .

A former top healthcare executive in North Carolina was awarded $10 million in a 'reverse' discrimination lawsuit over his claim that he was unfairly fired because he is a white male, according to Winston-Salem Journal.

David Duvall, a former senior vice president of marketing and communication at Novant Health, sued the North Carolina-based company in 2019 after losing his job in July 2018 due to its campaign to diversify top execs. He said he was fired without warning or explanation (just days before reaching his five year work anniversary, a milestone that would have awarded him a higher severance payout than what he was given).

Winston-Salem Journal.

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 12:54pm

As I expected Vic . You are not man enough to admit , like other leftists have , a mistake .

You are giving leftists a bad name .

Funny isn't it Vic . No one is willing to back track and admit to making an obvious mistake like Mr Armstrong was willing to do ( I think Waleeds view forced him into it ) .

You wanted me to be man enough to admit an obvious mistake a while ago which I did .

You talk the talk but don't walk the walk .

Very poor form !!!!!! I knew others would be light weights but I expected better from you . Another mistake I have made .

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stunet Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 1:05pm

"You are giving leftists a bad name ."

It's OK Hutchy, us leftists can bear it, being the original broad church and all.

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AndyM Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 1:26pm

"Interesting that other lefties are now supporting De Kock" "Waleed"

@Hutchy

It's interesting that Waleed can quite easily by defined as being conservative.
Actually from memory I think he even self-identifies as having definite conservative traits.

Hutchy I'd be interested to hear your definition of a "leftie".

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 1:27pm

I am sure you can Stu !

You have to bear it and I am sure are very used to it due it being done so regularly .

Very silly of me to think Vic would act differently . But I can also bear that .

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 1:33pm

Andy - Only Steve Price on the project is not left . Their token righty .

Waleed does probably have some conservative views due to his religion . His politics is LEFT .

I can't work out most lefties and would be be unable and/ or unwilling to define them .

You can give me your definition if you have one .

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indo-dreaming Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 2:03pm

Muslims generally are conservatives, but ive never seen Waleed show any conservative views and ive been watching the project a lot lately.

If you were going to simplify leftist id say they have idealistic views on must things opossed to realistic views.

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Vic Local Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 2:28pm

Hey Hutchy, I'm happy to admit that I got it wrong about the South African reason for taking a knee. Apparently it is to show support for the BLM movement. Will you admit the knee wasn't taken during the anthem. Will you also acknowledge that when only one person in a team refuses to make a gesture, it's pretty silly to accuse everyone else of being divisive. Seems like QDK realises he was the one who was being divisive and will now join the rest of his team.
On the other thread you said I was abusing de Kok. Just a flat out lie.
You don't have the moral high ground here.

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Vic Local Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 2:30pm

Hutchy I'd be interested to hear your definition of a "leftie".
That's easy. It's anyone who believes the experts re global warming, and anyone who believes racism has no place in society.

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AndyM Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 2:39pm

I've heard Waleed say that he is a conservative rather than a progressive with regards to not making wholesale changes to society - he would prefer to let democracy work its course and, generally speaking, defend tradition until it becomes democratically unpalatable, whereby the executive and the rule of law push though changes.

He often comments on the importance of a cohesive society and shows deep reservations regarding cancel culture, woke culture and the performative and narcissistic nature of modern life.
From what I've heard he's not in favour of thoughtless mass immigration, claiming that you can't build a society based on differences, there has to be uniting characteristics for an organic society.

So already we have two ways in which, by definition, Waleed is conservative.

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AndyM Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 2:49pm

Indo that's a primary school-level definition of "leftist", can't you do a bit better??

Here're a few prompts -

Left wing views on collectivism vs. individualism
Left wing views on equality

Or what about this -

"Falsehood is implicit in ideology because, considering it is created by the ruling class, its purpose is to disguise exploitation and oppression."

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 2:57pm

Vic - As I said I don't really follow this issue . Can't even remember the Gridiron player whose name started with a K that maybe started all of this .

I haven't even read up De Kocks situation . Just saw the comments here yesterday criticising a white South African for not kneeling . As the big issue with me is doing it during a national anthem I said so clearly . You said it was ok on numerous posts .

I don't know when the team was asked to do it . I only read quickly the report on what Waleed and Thompson said which said De Koch was given an ultimatum hours before a game and they thought it unfair . I haven't read the apology or know what he said about his teammates .

I was mistaken with you abusing QDK . Sorry . Others were so I mistakenly put you in the same boat .

Also not trying to get any moral high ground . I just said I didn't like Brutus demanding an immediate answer from QDK and inferring he was a racist for being a white South African . I am glad that other leftists agreed with my views .

Andy - I am confused with some Leftist views on Climate Change( and as you read above on their views on racism ) .

Clooney tells us all to stop creating CO2 . He then flies into Australia ( Private Jet ) and rents the biggest mansion on the Gold Coast .

Kerry , the US Climate Car , owns two houses , six cars ,two boats and a private jet .

Gore, I read years ago, has one of the biggest CO2 footprints in the world .

Her Royal Hinges Markel tells us all about wanting privacy and how to act better for the worlds sake while trying to tarnish the royals .

I get so confused on what which message they want us to follow .

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AndyM Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 3:09pm

Hutchy, read a book (or three) and put this into practice in the real world.
You may well find out who's bullshitting you.

Who gives a fuck what celebs think??

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Vic Local Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 3:58pm

Hutchy,
Mate, time to stop wading in to topics you admit you don't know much about. Can I suggest you read Michael Holding's "Why we kneel, how we rise". It's a great book and he gets the opinions of dozens of world class athletes. They tell their stories in detail.
The good thing about this book is that it shows a situation that is improving but is far from perfect. You might also look up the story of Carlos, Smith and Norman from the Mexico Olympics. They all paid a very high price for daring to support equality.
The treatment of Colin Kaepernick and Adam Goodes is recent history and shameful. The thing is, the usual suspects always have a bullshit excuse in their back pockets on why their treatment was acceptable. "CK disrespected the veterans", "Goodes deserves it because he threw an imaginary spier at the Carlton fans" etc etc. Read their stories and get back to us. I'm actually interested to see if you can see this issue from a different point of view.
I've seen racism in sport a few times and it's bloody devastating. Tough grown men in tears vowing never to play again. There has to be zero tolerance for this shit at clubs and the professional level. I'd suggest QDK has had a good think about his actions and now sees things from a different perspective.

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 4:32pm

Vic you say "Mate, time to stop wading in to topics you admit you don't know much about. "

Why ? Everyone else does it . Is it because in this circumstance I am right ?

As I said I am not keenly interested in these gestures that even Thompson said can be token . I have other things that I THINK are more important .

Just trying to be helpful as I do know what the G's response will be to them being done during our national anthem . I do know that calling someone racist just because they are white and before the whole story is out is unwise . Common sense goes a long way on most issues Vic.

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Vic Local Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 4:51pm

Rubbish Hutchy,
Your first comment re taking a knee / QDK was complete rubbish, focussing on the National Anthem even when the gesture was not taken during the song. You then banged on about the hypothetical and highly unlikely situation of players doing an anti-racism gesture at the G during the anthem. Now you're saying "calling someone racist just because they are white and before the whole story is out is unwise" even though nobody has made any such claims.
Your entire rant is based on stuff that never happened or hypothetical situations that won't happen. FFS hutch, try and deal with reality rather than making up imaginary situations to get worked up about. Read the book I mentioned. Get a different perspective from actual events, not made up gibberish.

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gragagan Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 4:57pm

Think of it being more like a moments silence before the game. It's separate to the anthems

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gragagan Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 5:01pm

Sounds like he was just being a rebel about being given a team directive so suddenly. He has grown up in a mixed-race family

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Vic Local Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 5:03pm
gragagan wrote:

Think of it being more like a moments silence before the game. It's separate to the anthems

Or a pre-season prayer. I've participated in plenty of those even though I'm a non-believer. It's about respecting your team mates and realising their faith is very important to them.

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gragagan Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 5:07pm

I meant more like the moments silence they do for someone (usually a former player) who has passed as a mark of respect

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Vic Local Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 5:29pm

hey grangagan, I can't ever remember pre season prayers or tributes to newly departed players ever being disrespectful for the anthem or the troops. It's like there's two entirely different standards.
How's scumo saying politics and sport shouldn't mix? This is a bloke who visits change rooms, runs water for the teams, wears scarves, wanted to go to the footy instead or locking down, says up up sharks like a faux bogan, and hosts cricketers at Kirribilli House. What Scumo means is my politics and sports mix, yours don't.

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Roker Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 5:59pm

Well I never. The venerable and beatific RGB in ideological harmony with a not exactly fellow traveller cultural progressive comrade of the liberal left - who is known to occasionally comment on these forums. Strange bedfellows?

Katie Couric, on the other hand, still agonising over her conflicting and irreconcilable roles of superstar journo and volunteer RGB publicist:

‘When asked by Couric how she feels about San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick, and others athletes, refusing to stand for the anthem, Ginsburg replied, “I think it’s really dumb of them.”

“Would I arrest them for doing it? No,” Ginsburg elaborated. “I think it’s dumb and disrespectful. I would have the same answer if you asked me about flag burning. I think it’s a terrible thing to do, but I wouldn’t lock a person up for doing it. I would point out how ridiculous it seems to me to do such an act”. ‘

Earlier this week, Couric admitted that she omitted much of RBG's answer on Kaepernick during a 2016 interview. The full quote appears in print for the first time in her forthcoming book, and was included in a profile of Couric in The Cut by Rebecca Traister.
"It's contempt for a government that has made it possible for their parents and their grandparents to live a decent life," Ginsburg said, according to Couric's recording from the 2016 sitdown. "Which they probably could not have lived, in the places they came from … As they become older they realize that this was a youthful folly. And that's why education is important." 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/katie-couric-book-rbg-colin-kaepernic...

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gragagan Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 6:00pm

You're right vic there is no disrespect

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 6:03pm

Vic - So you want me to prove you wrong . Your have such a thick skull .

To start this topic Brutus said -"Ok todays little snippet....Kwentin De Kock captain of South Africa T20 Cricket team refused to obey the South African Cricket board in taking a knee before the T20 game with the West Indies for BLM.......so he pulled out of the game and looks like the whole tournament , and now possibly ended his career......interesting he comes from Dutch/Afrikaans father...no mother and was brought up in rich Transvaal"

Follows up immediately with this -"So Quentin de Kock wouldn't bend the knee for BLM , has withdrawn from the team and looks like one of the best cricketers in the world , made a decision that ends his career......now that's standing up for what you believe , but why won't he talk about it?"

I followed with this "I am not really up with this bending the knee business .

It was , I believe , in support for BLM . I support the view to support this cause ..

In the US it caused a feeling that kneeling during the national anthem was a sign of disrespect to the country . I can understand that . I don't think it was successful causing attendances to football games to plummet .

It stopped ( or in not news now ) .

If Quentin de Kock refused to kneel in support for BLM during the playing of his countries national anthem he has my full support . The South African anthem changed after apartheid ended .

The cause of BLM can be supported without disrespecting one's country imo ."

This proves , imo but probably not to a thick head like you , that QDK whiteness was an issue , where he lived , what income his family had .

My comment clearly states that I did not know the exact details of what happened with QDK .

I only talked about what happened in the US when gridiron players knelt during the US national anthem . And it went down like a lead balloon .

Why do you insist on bull shitting when it so easy to prove you are WRONG .

If you took your advice and only commented on topics you really know SN would hardly hear from you at all . You are not a diplomate , a medical practitioner , a real-estate agent , an economist or a climate scientist .

You are good at maths and probably surfing - that's all .

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gragagan Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 6:02pm

Hutchy, they weren't kneeling during the anthem

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 6:12pm

Gragagan - I never said they were . I said "If Quentin de Kock refused to kneel in support for BLM during the playing of his countries national anthem " . I didn't fucken know as I have made clear to anyone that can read properly .

Please read the above again so you know what fucken happened . These are copied from previous posts . They are NOT made up in an attempt at distorting the fucken truth which Vic fucken made up .

I talked about what happened in the US . Then I said IF . I have said I did not know the details FFS .

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Roker Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 6:36pm

Lilian Thuram has copped his fair share of racism on the pitch and has the odd word or two to say on the subject:

“The people who could help to change this mentality are the people — and players — who are not the victims of racism and discrimination.

“So the question is, why are players who are not black, or from certain religious backgrounds, or homosexual willing to take actions or positions against this issue? The problem with discrimination of all kinds is that when you are not a victim you tend to think it does not exist. But it is very easy to stop.
“For example, if a white football player walked off the field whenever a racist act is made against a black player, things would be solved very quickly indeed. Because football is a business — people would find solutions very quickly in that instance. But the problem is that we always think it is the victim of racism who should stand up.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news/lilian-thuram-intervie...

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GuySmiley Friday, 29 Oct 2021 at 7:36pm

Some more history

https://m.

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brutus Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 8:44am
indo-dreaming wrote:

Muslims generally are conservatives, but ive never seen Waleed show any conservative views and ive been watching the project a lot lately.

If you were going to simplify leftist id say they have idealistic views on must things opossed to realistic views.

Lol .....if you simplified the rights id, they create their own reality so as to crush the left ideals of equality for everyone, with their vision .." a few controlling the many...and using the old trickle down theory of eventually everyone will benefit from the right wing elite throwing a few crusts to us peasants!

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 8:54am

I was thinking/talking more socially than economically, most of the world including muslims are socially conservatives.

"a few controlling the many" Is more a leftist ideal communism/socialism.

BTW. Equality of opportunity v's equality of outcome, is two different things, one favoured by the right one a pipe dream of the left.

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brutus Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 8:58am
Constance B Gibson wrote:

Actually Brutus, did you notice Jesus' t-shirt in my pic?

Anyway, did someone mention Jesus AND Marx?

Have a gander, brothers.

http://jesusfilms.blogspot.com/2011/03/revolutionary-jesus-pasolinis-gos...

yeah Constance , that republican t-shirt......missed it ...what a a fantastic post on Pasolinis Film.....sometimes," I can't see the Forest for the trees.."" very interesting I will hunt down the film and give it a gander , thanx for that!
Also interesting Jesus as a Marxist....or is Marxism ripping off Jesus?

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brutus Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 9:22am
sypkan wrote:

re. blm...
I think the best thing aboriginal people could do is just walk away from all that bullshit
aside from being totally seppo and cringeworthy... it's totally built around false premise in the US, and an even falser one here... as evidenced above...
that doesn't mean I don't support aboriginal causes, or that I am somehow 'racist' for not submitting, or bowing to, or kneeling to... or something...
it just means that whenever I see an aussie - be they black or white - flogging the blm / white fragility indoctrination, ...all I 've got is a massive internal eye roll...
and switch goes to off

Sypkan, rather than seeing a seppo based BLM ....I see a Global movement...all Blacks, not just the African ex-slaves........

Story...in the 80's when I was flying back and forwards from France to Hawaii , sometimes would get stuck in San Fran ( learnt about NFL/49ers) but sometimes NYC . One time in NYC , I couldn't resist wanting to go to Harlem ( when it was a slum, dangerous ghetto).......caught a taxi as far as he would go...I then jumped out of the Taxi with $100 in my pocket and my passport and proceeded to walk into Harlem. about a couple of hundred meters in , blacks everywhere starting to come at me...at that stage of life even a pretty heavy situation. One huge guy approached me , mumbling ' hey ya fucker , the fuck are you doing in the hood...?"....I responded in my strongest Australian accent " Gidday mate I come from Australia and wanted to check out how you blackfellas are doing over here !" the shock , the grin, and the "man your a what?" spent lunch there , chatted to so many different Negroes....all seemed happy , strong family's , everytime whites/USA blah blah was mentioned talk became angry , violent which I have never seen in Australia.........had an amazing day learnt first hand about the difference in being stolen from your mother country , sold into slavery to white colonialists....and hundreds of years later the "resentment/hate and feeling of despair was/is still there.....as opposed to here in Australia , where colonialism tried to destroy our First Peoples culture , didn't succeed ....and now we have a healthy discussion and way forward.....so yeah BLM in the USA a bit different, but still highlighting the current inequalities and providing solutions...taking a knee is symbolic , but for some of us it's not tokenism, but part of the pathway forward.
Kwentin de Kock has apologised , will take a knee and wants his teammates to accept him back , so yeah he took a stand , realized the negative consequences , has done the interview...and we all move on to the next match!

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bluediamond Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 10:22am

classic story Brutus!! Gutsy.

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Blowin Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 12:28pm

Yeah, nah. There’s almost no parallel between the African American experience and the indigenous Australian experience except for colour of skin and grouping people together because of something as superficial as skin colour is racist whichever way you peel it back.

First Nations Australians have more in common with the Irish as both had their lands stolen and culture targeted for destruction by the English . But you aren’t allowed to say that All Lives Matter.

Mob pressure to bow to authoritarianism is disgusting. Taking a knee unto perpetuity is imposition of group think and using someone’s income and livelihood as leverage to force them to align with group think is utterly wrong. It’s like forcing people to have a flag in your front yard to prove they love Australia and if you don’t have your flag you must be anti Australian….what rubbish.

Any movement which separates people based on skin colour is regressive racist bullshit.

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sypkan Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 12:39pm

yep, cool story brutus

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sypkan Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 12:43pm

but...

"...It’s like forcing people to have a flag in your front yard to prove they love Australia and if you don’t have your flag you must be anti Australian….what rubbish."

yep

fuck that shit

whatever the cause...

it's coercion... it's intimidation... to compliance, not conviction...

it's false and unhealthy

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sypkan Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 12:45pm

and its a little bit dangerous actually...

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Blowin Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 12:59pm

“It’s just a simple thing. Just put your flag up in your yard to show you love Australia. If you don’t do this easy one little thing then you must hate Australia. If you’re not with us you’re against us. Anyone without a flag should be cancelled because they’re an Australia hater. They should lose their job until they recant, publicly apologise and put their flag on a higher pole than anyone.”

A rose by any other name etc

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blindboy Saturday, 30 Oct 2021 at 1:13pm

"Any movement which separates people based on skin colour is regressive racist bullshit."

Those who foregt history are doomed to repeat it. Witness the re-energising of the racist right.