The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

etarip's picture
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etarip Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 7:25pm

Hey wait…. I thought China had never invaded anyone?

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 7:46pm

To paraphrase from Wim Wenders, "The Chinese have invaded our subconscious."*

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 7:48pm

* Actually, it's "the Americans have colonised our subconscious."

Now, THAT'S true.

Sad but true.

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etarip Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 7:53pm

I think you might have missed my point.

But that’s cool.

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bluediamond Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:02pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Typical Blue D response . I said I hadn't seen ONE good suggestion you have posted and asked you to post them . You didn't so when I have some time I will look back a few days . Please send me the other post you mentioned or give me the week so I can have a look .

I have repeatedly said I feel not qualified to offer my own suggestions so trying to not "speak" much .

You still have NEVER given me anything realistic that's worth "listening to " . Why not start now ?

Giving Aboriginals 50% voting rights and 50% of all our industries is a stupid idea as I have told you .

FFS give me one good idea !

Hutch. U post plain lies about what i said. You discredit anything I've posted of being of no substance, even though I continually lay out valid and debatable points without getting personal. Then after abusing all and sundry on here, you declare no less than 6 times in one day how you'll leave this thread (still waiting). All I see from your posts is somebody trying to distract the conversation anytine it makes any real progress. This does make me question your motives behind your posts. Your unwillingness to properly engage in decent civil debate but to reduce it to your miserly level, as soon as the conversation shows any real signs of progress, can only lead me to think your deeper motivation isn't one of unity and harmony for indigenous Australians.

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sypkan Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:27pm

I hate the word 'japs', aside from maybe once or twice, literally never used it in my life...

makes me quite uncomfortable when others use it, that won't stop me talking to them, but my little inside narrative says... 'really?!'...

lucky it doesn't stop me talking to them, as quite a few good friends use it readily, and tbh, often it seems to have a little loaded racism behind it...

having said that, I have spent a lot of time around japanese people, one in particular, fo r decades almost, very close, about as honest and free as a relationship can get... have asked several times, in different settings and times, if 'japs' is considered offensive... a very definite 'no' was the answer every time...

zen's circle sees it different, as do many others obviously... i think it comes down to what you've been told and your education, which can both be quite sheltered in the japanese experience. japanese education seems quite censored, not china style censored... but a very controlled account in schools it would seem nonetheless...

which brings me to who decided 'japs' is offensive?

it seems cross cultural japanese people have picked up on it, and some (hyper)sensitive whiteys have spread their gospel...

which for me, just shows how subjective 'racism' is. and that quite often, it's actually the (hyper)sensitive getting offended on someone's behalf...

which was fine for a while... but now, it's become a legion of (anti)culture warriors making a career out of it...

dissing, dismissing, deplarforming... and tut-tuting their way through life, ...inflating their egos, by tearing down others... and some are making a pretty penny in the process...

I still cringe when I hear 'japs'... every time... but I now judge the tut-tutter much more than the person that said it... (depending on context...) ...because it's become increasingly clear this little road of manufactured outrage often serves the tut-tutters more than it does any perceived community service...

and plus, it's all totally subjective... which was fine when it was all almost objective and reasonable... but that's been thrown out of the window, developed into the form of an orgy of outrage... where subjective theories reign supreme, as 'all perspectives matter'

...except for the 'wrongthink' ones...

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etarip Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:31pm

Look at any WW2 propaganda poster. There’s a clear link between the pejorative term “Japs” and crude racially-based depictions. That’s imho why the term is loaded, especially in Australia and the US. Most people of a certain age get it. I’d understand why many younger crew wouldn’t. The WW2 angst has faded from public memory.

Interesting fact tho, going back a couple more decades from WW2. you know whose Navy provided a battleship to escort ANZAC troop convoy from Albany to Egypt before the Gallipolli campaign?
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/navy_squadron_in_the_m...

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tubeshooter Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 8:41pm

So ,,,,, can we can still call Americans 'seppos' ?? .... I bloody hope so..

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:11pm

Stop your blubbering as you seem Blue in the face .

Show me your ideas or I will have to go looking . What are you trying to hide ?

The longer you procrastinate the worse you look . Time to show those on this site what a DH I am .

Its a great opportunity for you . I will grovel if proven wrong !

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bluediamond Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:48pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Stop your blubbering as you seem Blue in the face .

Show me your ideas or I will have to go looking . What are you trying to hide ?

The longer you procrastinate the worse you look . Time to show those on this site what a DH I am .

Its a great opportunity for you . I will grovel if proven wrong !

I've already replied to you. Go look it up yourself.
You had the opportunity to reply then, it was clearly directed at you, with your name at the beginning, but you didn't take it. So go for it.

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bluediamond Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 9:53pm

Hutchy19. Post's some unprovoked bullshit lie that i never said earlier today about being an old white guy (turns out i never said that). Ask him to actually get onto anything deeper and same old result. Round and round in circles. Sounding like a broken fucken record.

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bluediamond Thursday, 14 Oct 2021 at 10:31pm

Alright Hutchy19. I'm over the personal b.s. This thread is meant to be for helping all of us to understand and to communicate ideas and maybe help unlock something that can be useful in a bigger narrative.
I'm offering a truce in the form of this paper.
https://vuir.vu.edu.au/34839/1/QUAYLE%20Amy%20-%20Thesis.pdf
I haven't read it yet but am willing to. It's 400 plus pages long. It's a big one. But looks to have an awful lot contained within it that might benefit both of us in our understandings. I don't know alot at all, and i'm still learning.
If you're willing to join me in reading this whole paper, i'll happily agree to stay off this thread until i've read it, if you do too. And then we can come back and discuss it like gentlemen, with a little gained wisdom. Up to you but i reckon i wanna go away and learn more so as to help contribute with a fuller understanding.

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old-dog Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 7:17am

Posting links you haven't even read yet says more about you than you will ever realize, hilariously naïve love.

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bluediamond Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 9:03am

Old dog, still waiting for yiur contribution other than weak snide remarks.
Its a fascinating read. Commenting on a link you haven't even attempted to read??
What are you actually doing here? Do I know you? You seem to follow me around taking pot shots without offering anything. A real life troll. Id imagine your life must be fun. Its still not too late to get one. Or at least contribute something meaningful here. Otherwise, er, like fuck off?

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AndyM Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 9:13am

The paper is “Informed by contextualist constructionist epistemology and critical theory,”

Count me in.

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 9:59am

Blue Diamond - I have scrolled through the whole thread . Your suggestions and comments .

25/7 - Change our flag , give Aboriginals 50% of political power , 50%Media ownership , 50% real-estate and other similar gifts .
26/7 - sacrifice our own privileges .
27/7 - change our greed .
28/7 - 85% of Australians are indifferent and ignorant .
31/7 - advised Aboriginals not to assimilate . Get out of the Commonwealth .
5/8 - said Australian government had a policy of Genocide and to Steal Children based on race .
6/8 - said I had a " White Australia Mentality " . This DID cause me GREAT offence !
15/9 - Posted that you had 3 bottles of Red wine and continued to post after I said said please stop .
*11/10 - I think this is the post I missed - more power to control their own destiny ( you referred to your original post of 50% power ), centralised voice , true authoritative' power , loosen their reins .
You also said you had no idea of the detail on how this should be done .

Yesterday you said you mentioned the Healing centres that Brutus highlighted . I couldn't see that - perhaps I missed that to .

As I have said REPEATEDLY . You have not offered ONE sensible suggestion and explained how it could be implemented .

Thanks for the 400 page link . I hope it has an executive summary .

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garyg1412 Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 11:59am

This thread has become like a tag team wrestling match with multiple loud mouthed referees. All over the use of one word. Be good reference material for any Swellnet user doing their Bachelor Of Psychology thesis :)

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bluediamond Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 12:13pm

Jeez hutch. Youre a faster reader than me.
I guess learning is alot harder than having an opinion.
Interestingly 50 pages in and all the bullshit you've posted about there never being a genocide and no policies were introduced for removal of children from their families have been completely debunked. I can see why you would choose not to properly read it.
Anyway this thread has become typical if all swellnet threads. Im willing to put my energy into learning and sharing information for a better outcome for indigenous Australians. I don't think this is the right place to put that energy
There are severe distractors, as soon as the conversation gets moving along.
Blowin, indo, blindboy, andy m, goofyfoot, d rex, old dog, hutchy19 and a few ive definitely forgotten. The same old pot-shots and the same old distractive techniques to move the conversation away from any real meaningful progress. Enjoy old white men
Clearly that's the demographic and nothings gonna change there.
And the contributors who have posted meaningful and interesting content thanks! Its encouraging to see some decent folk on here, Legends all of you.
Check ya.

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bluediamond Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 12:24pm

BTW..^old white giys" is a term of endearment...just like Blowins "Japs"
I don't care at all about age or skin colour, but there's definitely an old white guy mentality thriving on here.

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Constance B Gibson Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 2:39pm

Yass, talking about dates, here's something on here from the 17th Sept:

"Why do you feel our first nations people want to hear 'your' [our] 'solutions'? Have you looked at any ideas that they've got themselves?

For example, I'm sure you're across this?

https://ulurustatement.org/faqs "

Other suggestions/ideas/programs/ideas direct from the source aka 'THEM' are myriad...if YOUSE can be bothered looking.

Just a coupla examples off the top of me head for further 'resurch' to get YOUSE started...

From the work of Chris Sarra and Noel Pearson in the education sphere (and both of them even coming from points of difference! Who'd believe it?!), to Dr Tracy Westerman AM in psychology and mental health (check her work and programs: https://indigenouspsychservices.com.au/about/dr-tracy-westerman/) to stuff like this re: policing https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-australia-53830919?fbclid=IwAR0aDUrGAd... to areas in heritage https://nit.com.au/koori-owned-heritage-firm-puts-aboriginal-heritage-in...

Etc etc etc

The point being plenty of ATSI voices to be heard and things being implemented by THEM. If YOUSE wanna look and listen.

Hey, still really wanna get involved? Try this on for size!

https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2020/where-do-you-fit-tokenistic-ally--or-a...

YOUSE can do it!

A final observation (trigger alert):

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 2:45pm

Blue - "BTW..^old white giys" is a term of endearment...just like Blowins "Japs""

It might be .

" White Australia Mentality " is definitely not .

I showed lots of court case findings that proved the Stolen Generation was NEVER government policy .

You started the thread , have never offered an idea that is constructive and now you head off sulking .

Typical form .

The thread calmed down and had some worthwhile discussions when you were away . I believe it will again in the future .

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brutus Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 2:56pm
bluediamond wrote:

BTW..^old white giys" is a term of endearment...just like Blowins "Japs"
I don't care at all about age or skin colour, but there's definitely an old white guy mentality thriving on here.

BD , how the fark did Japs come into it.......???

it's ironic when I was using the term "white culture? Blowin asked me if I could stop it as it offended him...so I asked how's Western Culture sound....ah much better!

there seems to be a negative connotation to the using of white these days , but then again Black has always been a cooler tone,LOL!

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Hutchy 19 Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 3:22pm

Connie - your writing style is so condescending . You are such a boar .

I have just read the first link - thanks for posting it .

The Uluru Statement looks like the 250 delegates wasted our money ( I wonder where they met and how much it cost ) . If lead by Turnbull it will , unfortunately , be all waffle .

Their finding that the Aboriginals and Torres Islanders need a voice is a nice outcome . My first thought is how is this achieved and then I read this -

"The Uluru Statement does not detail the structure of the Voice and how it will do its job. That is a process separate from achieving constitutional change. The Uluru Statement asks the Australian people to give their support at a referendum on a question of fundamental principle: that First Nations should have a Voice enshrined in the Constitution. The details including the functions, powers and processes of the Voice, will be worked out between government and First Nations and put into legislation. "

WTF - asking for a referendum to change the constitution with no detail ? Sounds just like something that lazy person Turnbull would propose . Nice waffle , no fucken substance .

The statement mentions how terrible is was getting rid of ATSIC . I remember it being run by a red headed bully called Mr Clarke . It was a complete farce and should have been put down .

Have you read what you have posted Connie What is so good for me to spend time reading in the other articles .

When is the referendum planed ? Sounds like a Blue Diamond plan . In the Never , Never .

I do wish I could have been more positive about the statement . Sad that they missed an opportunity to do some good !

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zenagain Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 4:25pm

Sorry, I can't help myself but... Oink!

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indo-dreaming Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 4:35pm
Constance B Gibson wrote:

White people find the term white people uncomfortable because it's just another lazy racial label that tries to use one word to describe a whole range of ethic groups and if you lined up a group of Aussies labeled white you would actually find they have all types of backgrounds that aren't traditionally exactly white, like Greek, Italian, Spanish, my kids half Indonesian could be labeled white, one of my best mate's has Indigenous ancestry but im sure many would label him white.

Plus it's also often used in a negative way today, like white people are bad because some so called white people did bad shit in the past or white people represent this or that.

It's interesting that some punk/hardcore bands were way ahead in this area 30 to 40 years ago and called it out, but now these same artist these days would never have the balls to write these songs again as they would be way to scared of being cancelled or labeled white supremest or something, fuck that shit, be proud of who ever you are no matter your skin colour, brown, white, black, yellow, your skin colour or ethnicity, its all irrelevant as is anything done by people today or in the past that share you're ethnicity or skin colour.

NO FX Dont call me white

Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
The connotations wearing my nerves thin
Could it be semantics generating the mess we're in?
I understand that language breeds stereotype
But what's the explanation for the malice, for the spite?
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
I wasn't brought here, I was born
Circumcised, categorized, allegiance sworn
Does this mean I have to take such shit
For being fair skinned? No!
I ain't a part of no conspiracy, I'm just you're average joe
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Represents everything I hate
The soap shoved in the mouth to cleanse the mind
The vast majority of sheep
A buttoned collar, starched and bleached
Constricting veins, the blood flow to the brain slows
They're so fuckin ordinary white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Oh, we're better off this way?
Oh, say what you're gonna say
So go ahead and label me an asshole
'cause I can
Accept responsibility for what I've done
But not for who I am
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white

Minor threat-Guilty of being white

Lyrics
I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
Guilty of being white
I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
Guilty of being white
I'm a convict (Guilty!)
Of a racist crime (Guilty!)
I've only served (Guilty!)
Nineteen years of my time
I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
Guilty of being white

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goofyfoot Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 5:17pm

“ There are severe distractors, as soon as the conversation gets moving along.
Blowin, indo, blindboy, andy m, goofyfoot, d rex, old dog, hutchy19 and a few ive definitely forgotten. The same old pot-shots and the same old distractive techniques to move the conversation away from any real meaningful progress. Enjoy old white men”

Hahaha thanks for lumping me in with the rest of the crew BD!
You going to have a sook again soon and leave?
It’s not an airport mate, no need to announce your departure this time… fuckwit

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goofyfoot Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 5:52pm

BTW blue diamond, all the years I’ve been reading swellnet you’re the only person I’ve ever seen belittle someone on their surfing ability based on a photo they posted.
You’re a little self-righteous smug sad man who tries to portray a holier than thou image and it’s hilarious

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Constance B Gibson Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 6:51pm

Krist on a stick, Hutchy91, what are you on about? The National Constitutional Convention & Uluru Statement gathering was "lead by Turnbull"?! Wha?? And "I wonder where they met"??

Yikes! You're a reader, aint ya?

As for your snippet, let me put some capitalisation in here for some emphasis for ya:

"The Uluru Statement does not detail the structure of the Voice and how it will do its job. THAT IS A PROCESS SEPARATE FROM ACHIEVING CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE. The Uluru Statement asks the Australian people to give their support at a referendum on a question of fundamental principle: that First Nations should have a Voice enshrined in the Constitution. THE DETAILS INCLUDING THE FUNCTIONS, POWERS, AND PROCESSES OF THE VOICE, WILL BE WORKED OUT BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND FIRST NATIONS AND PUT INTO LEGISLATION."

Believe it or not, constitutional law is complex. And changing the constitution in any, way, shape or form is cumbersome to say the least. Enshrining the recognition and need for a voice in the constitution means it is pretty much set in stone, and can't be dissolved by parliamentary government-of-the-day whim. The design of the Voice - it's FUNCTIONS, POWERS, AND PROCESSES - by being determined by parliament gives it necessary flexibility and scope for change, as things change. The particular nature and design of it can even be dissolved, BUT if this occurs, there must be a 'voice' put in its place, because it will be enshrined in the constitution.

Have a gander of this, reader!

https://www.unsw.edu.au/news/2020/07/the-uluru-statement-is-not-a-vague-...

And for some real depth, strap yourself in:

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=797348c1-a197-451b-96d2-2c1...

This is why this is a deliberate decision in the wording of the Uluru Statement. A note to save time: All questions you may have are answered in that 2nd document above.

Now, how this is weaponised by the usual suspect media, and to put it bluntly, YOU Hutchy91, and YOUR government, well...

Oh Gawd, can I hear you about to crank up with your 'hot take' on the ol' Republic referendum?? Or is it this?

Cheers!

(Zen gets it)

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gragagan Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 7:02pm

Well said CBG

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Constance B Gibson Friday, 15 Oct 2021 at 7:33pm

Mackaye was a teenager when he opined that one. It shows. I remember when he was taken to task back then by MDC’s Dave Dictor (trigger alert: Millions of Dead Cops!) and Articles of Faith’s Vic Bondi. In short, as teenager Mackaye was dreaming of a (white) xmas where one “dealt with people as individuals, not black and white,” and one in which he, as a white person, should "not be made to feel guilty for slavery or other historical instances where people of colour were oppressed", old mate Bondi simply countered:

"If you say, “Fuck this guilty shit, I ain’t gonna feel guilty, it’s not my fault.” [Black people] are going to say, “Well who the fuck’s fault is it?” It’s like, well, it’s nobody’s fault; it’s history. But the situation is that they’re still left with the remains of their historical past."

Bondi and Dictor charged Mackaye with imagining himself ahistorical: which is one of the most insidious manifestations of privilege.

Mackaye, older but wiser, saw this light later in Fugazi. For example in the 1988 song “Bulldog Front”: “Ahistorical/You think this shit just dropped right out of the sky.”

Hey, he was a teen. I think he moved on from "don't fuck, at least I can fucken think!" too!

As for the b-grade Enormous Mike, remember when he cranked up Punk Voter after the legitimately dodgy election in 2000? Of course you don't. He's just another young dummy that saw the light later...for a time at least. Hanging out with Jello will do that to ya.

Info, looking for a song...or two?

Remember people, it's Mental Health Month.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 7:46am
Constance B Gibson wrote:

. In short, as teenager Mackaye was dreaming of a (white) xmas where one “dealt with people as individuals, not black and white,” and one in which he, as a white person, should "not be made to feel guilty for slavery or other historical instances where people of colour were oppressed", old mate Bondi simply countered:

"If you say, “Fuck this guilty shit, I ain’t gonna feel guilty, it’s not my fault.” [Black people] are going to say, “Well who the fuck’s fault is it?” It’s like, well, it’s nobody’s fault; it’s history. But the situation is that they’re still left with the remains of their historical past."

Bondi and Dictor charged Mackaye with imagining himself ahistorical: which is one of the most insidious manifestations of privilege.

.

All this highlight's the problem, and why this never ending cycle will never end, it's very damaging to all parties, but most damaging to the non white party.

If you don't get it, you don't get it, and probably never will.

But if the attitude doesn't change 100 years from now nothing will be different.

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brutus Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 9:11am
indo-dreaming wrote:
Constance B Gibson wrote:

. In short, as teenager Mackaye was dreaming of a (white) xmas where one “dealt with people as individuals, not black and white,” and one in which he, as a white person, should "not be made to feel guilty for slavery or other historical instances where people of colour were oppressed", old mate Bondi simply countered:

"If you say, “Fuck this guilty shit, I ain’t gonna feel guilty, it’s not my fault.” [Black people] are going to say, “Well who the fuck’s fault is it?” It’s like, well, it’s nobody’s fault; it’s history. But the situation is that they’re still left with the remains of their historical past."

Bondi and Dictor charged Mackaye with imagining himself ahistorical: which is one of the most insidious manifestations of privilege.

.

All this highlight's the problem, and why this never ending cycle will never end, it's very damaging to all parties, but most damaging to the non white party.

If you don't get it, you don't get it, and probably never will.

But if the attitude doesn't change 100 years from now nothing will be different.

Indo, the attitude is changing , BLM proved that with younger people wanting to engage with their First Nations Story/culture and history. and the start of Treaty talks in Victoria.....in the last 10 years we have seen "Welcome to Country " become an institution now. We have seen the outrage at a mining Co desecrating an ancient site the list goes on of positive actions that are changing the understanding of non-indigenous Australians who are now starting to embrace our indigenous culture.....

It's a lot of older Australians that still have bias's and the remnants of Australia's white colonial past......I think there has been huge progress and it feels like we are just getting started in unravelling the truth of the past , understand where our First Nations people coming from and what they want and need....and not what we think they should have!
' I find your term " non white party " very strange ! is that how you differentiate people , whites and non-whites ?

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 9:27am

Connie -You write -"This is why this is a deliberate decision in the wording of the Uluru Statement. A note to save time: "

Your second post says this -"The Commonwealth parliament already has power, for instance, to make laws that facilitate the “interaction” between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and the Commonwealth parliament and government. But, at the moment, the parliament is under no obligation to create these interactions."

The government have the power NOW FFS .

The Australian people are not stupid . Any referendum that asks for changes to be made without explaining how it will be done ( the detail ) will get a NO vote . How would the Aboriginals and Torres Straight Islanders feel about that ?

The same happened with the referendum to change the monarchy ( Turnbull involved again ) . Most Australian do think ( I do ) that we should be ( and are ) marsters of our own destiny . My problem was that they did not explain how a President would be chosen ( the detail ) . Most Australians had the same view and it got a NO .

May I ask that you cut and paste ( you are good at that ) a piece from the articles you ask me to read so I can see they contain a good suggestion .

Brutus you say -"It's a lot of older Australians that still have bias's and the remnants of Australia's white colonial past..."

I say you are way wrong . They may still have long help views and principles but not related to any bias re colonialism .

Many older Australians ( esp in Melb ) are immigrants . We are a multicultural society . Please try and catch up to what real Australians think . You will be pleasantly surprised .

It is you that can't get over colonialism , not most Australians .

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brutus Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 9:58am

Oh Hutchy ...can you comment on the White Australia policy , how and why it was instigated and what were the issues arising from legislation that existed from 1901 - 1975?
Immigrants from Italy/Greece arrived in numbers in the 60's and 70's...they were called wogs and dagos etc , racism was rife...bit like when the Vietnamese arrived in Australia , the yellow peril has arrived....then the Middle East , lebbos etc......you will find a lot of older migrants suffered also racist BS based on the white colonial past , just as our First Nations people ...you and Indo have a foundation of colonial views/bias's!

Brutus you say -"It's a lot of older Australians that still have bias's and the remnants of Australia's white colonial past..."

I say you are way wrong . They may still have long help views and principles but not related to any bias re colonialism .

Many older Australians ( esp in Melb ) are immigrants . We are a multicultural society . Please try and catch up to what real Australians think . You will be pleasantly surprised .

It is you that can't get over colonialism , not most Australians .

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 10:32am

Brutus - My mothers family came out from Holland after the war . I know all about wogs and white wogs .

I was bullied at school for being a yank ( which I wasn't ) .

The racism was a cause of people being confronted with something different , something they didn't want to understand .

The exact same today ( and always has ) with children all around the world . How would an Asian , Black or White American go in an all Aboriginal school ?

What caused Nethanderals to die off ?

The Japanese and Koreans don't want their blood mixed and are imo very racist .

Absolutely NOTHING to do with colonialism .

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brutus Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 11:06am

Hutchy , answer the question ...where, how and why did Australia's White Australia policy come from?

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 11:36am

I will try .

I believe I read a long time ago it came about due to land use problems caused by Chinese in the NT .

After digging out all the gold the Chinese were doing land practices that the authorities didn't like .

Nothing to do with our First people . They never tried to throw them out .

If it was related to the First nations it would have been brought in much earlier .

Also I respond better with a please and not a demand .

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etarip Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 2:53pm

Hutchy, I recommend that you read WEH Stanner “The Dreaming and Other Essays” for a pretty good summary of the reality of Australia’s colonial and post-colonial policies toward the indigenous population, starting with the initial divergences from the direction that Arthur Phillip was given by the Crown to establish a settlement while maintaining amity with the ‘natives’. It broke down within months. Punitive missions to take heads etc. all recorded.
But Stanner’s main target was the ‘culture of indifference’ to the fate of the aborigines.

I’d suggest that maybe stop with sitting back asking people for ‘proof’ of genocidal policies, while ignoring the reality that sits in plain sight. The fact that there might not have explicitly genocidal policies is irrelevant if the actions of generations toward ‘assimilation’ was focused on achievement of the same thing.

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 4:32pm

Thank etrip for your suggested reading .

I would suggest that you stop asking me to stop asking for proof off genocidal policies . I have already given up asking .

As you said "The fact that there might not have explicitly genocidal policies is irrelevant if the actions of generations toward ‘assimilation’ was focused on achievement of the same thing."

I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations . They are being told the opposite . You can disagree as nearly all on this thread share your view .

Exactly the same with Stolen Generation !

As you said

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 5:23pm
etarip wrote:

Hutchy, I recommend that you read WEH Stanner “The Dreaming and Other Essays” for a pretty good summary of the reality of Australia’s colonial and post-colonial policies toward the indigenous population, starting with the initial divergences from the direction that Arthur Phillip was given by the Crown to establish a settlement while maintaining amity with the ‘natives’. It broke down within months. Punitive missions to take heads etc. all recorded.
But Stanner’s main target was the ‘culture of indifference’ to the fate of the aborigines.

Thats the where the quote that Andy didnt like came from that is used on the Dark Emu Debunked website.

“They [the Australian Aborigines] are, of course, nomads — hunters and foragers who grow nothing, build nothing, and stay nowhere long. They make almost no physical mark on the environment…They move about, carrying their scant possessions, in small bands of anything from ten to sixty persons…Their tools and crafts, meagre — pitiably meagre — though they are, have nonetheless been good enough to let them win the battle for survival, and to win it comfortably at that. With no pottery, no knowledge of metals, no wheel, no domestication of animals, no agriculture, they have still been able to people the entire continent…”

- W.E.H. Stanner, The Dreaming & Other Essays, Black Inc Agenda, 2010, p 64,65 & 70 -"

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Hutchy 19 Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 5:36pm

Thanks for that Indo . I was concerned it would be another biased link I was being sent to .

I will now make a point to try and check it out .

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etarip Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 7:02pm

“I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations”
you’ve missed the point, again. Whether the aims of policy were stated as such is irrelevant if the execution of those policies resulted in an outcome. There’s nuance in there. I don’t think you’re picking up on that. ‘Assimilation’ was used to justify cultural erasure.

Stanner is good. It’s dated. There’s modern academic criticism of Stanners approach, but he was publishing from the 1930s to 1970s. It’s very forward thinking. He was (still is?) a highly respected anthropologist and leader of the movement to support constitutional change in 1967. His focus and experience was on tribal groups in the NT from memory. He also served in WW2 as an officer in the NAOU - the precusor to modern NORFORCE.

Read it in context and don’t cherry pick quotes to support a position contrary to what the author intended. I’ve made a point about nomadic lifestyles on this thread before.

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bonza Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 8:48pm

“I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations”

Jesus h Christ hutch that’s offensive. Semantics. They were fuckin murdered. Literally murdered by the thousands. Massacre sites litter this country. Bred out. Stolen. Approved officially or silently approved. at the very least ignored. Their ancestors are alive today hopefully not reading your gutter talk for cheap thrills. Have some heart mate.

Your attitude is dying. It’s minority and it’s not being replaced by “wokeness”. Just fucking realism. Deal with it.

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tubeshooter Saturday, 16 Oct 2021 at 10:48pm

Walk down a residential street in an outback town. Dogs are still bred and trained to be aggressive towards blackfellas. Two aboriginal kids walk past someones yard and the hounds go ballistic , two white kids walk past , nothing. You don't think they don't get it ?
The attitude is slowly dying but it still exists.

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 17 Oct 2021 at 8:25am

Bonza - I am amazed that most people on this site can't see that there is a huge difference between a deliberate government policy and not .

I am sure I will get shouted down for using this analogy .

Does anyone think that if Hitler did NOT have a policy to kill the Jews that the massacres would have have lead to millions being killed ? Gas chambers being built ?

I don't .

Do you think it would have made a difference to the Jews ? I do .

Government sponsored genocide is a slur the German people are still trying to deal with . Australians don't have to .

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 17 Oct 2021 at 9:09am

Bonza - perhaps you will understand this example ?

State sponsored Terrorism versus terrorists that just happen to be based in a country .

A MASSIVE difference .

We have and will go to war against a State that deliberately sponsors terrorism .

And you write this abuse . "Their ancestors are alive today hopefully not reading your gutter talk for cheap thrills. Have some heart mate."

There are ancestors of the government leaders who you accuse of committing genocide alive today . I hope they are not reading your views .

How is your idea going to put up knee high fences up to stop cane toads ? Now that is a cheap thrill comment .

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Oct 2021 at 9:28am
tubeshooter wrote:

Walk down a residential street in an outback town. Dogs are still bred and trained to be aggressive towards blackfellas. Two aboriginal kids walk past someones yard and the hounds go ballistic , two white kids walk past , nothing. You don't think they don't get it ?
The attitude is slowly dying but it still exists.

Are they really trained or is it a natural reaction???

As i know in Indo dogs totally know the difference between Indonesians and westerners and they sure aren't taught it, you walk into a neighbourhood or village in Indo and the local dogs will go crazy, but wont bat an eye lid at locals or even non locals Indonesians like my wife..

It's really weird, ive experienced it so many times and ive seen it happen to other westerners, and im a full on dog lover, generally speaking dogs love me and in Oz it's rare for me not to be able to win a dog over even within seconds, dogs are super weird in this regard they seem to have a different sense.

BTW. Im obviously not suggesting dogs are racist, but they have some ability to pick up differences between known and unknown or something, it's weird.

Surely any other guys that have traveled Indo have had this experience?

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Supafreak Sunday, 17 Oct 2021 at 9:48am

@indo , my wife’s family dogs won’t come near me or let me pat them . I can feed them meat instead of the scraps the family gives them and they still bark at me and always keep their distance . There is only one other white guy in this area , a retired Australian married to my wife’s aunty . Dogs treat him the same way . I’ve always been a dog lover and generally like you , win them over pretty quickly. I had a little dachshund when I lived there that I had adopted from a bloke who was mistreating it , great little companion, unfortunately some wild beach dogs ripped his throat out .

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Hutchy 19 Sunday, 17 Oct 2021 at 10:02am

My parents had a small poodle . For some reason she didn't like a close friend who was of Greek heritage . Olive skin and black curly hair .

Whenever he visited the dog would freak out . My mate and I had a laugh about it just the other day .

I don't think my mum trained or purposely bought a breed that hated Greeks but maybe tubeshooter is right . ha ha .

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brutus Sunday, 17 Oct 2021 at 10:18am

Hutchy , how's your reading going of the white Australia policy.....why/how and what affects did it have on Australia.
You might understand genocidal needs , as the white colonialist mentality was part of the White Australia policy...so stop asking for proof , when you won't read and understand Australias Policies of the 20th century!

Hutchy 19 wrote:

Thank etrip for your suggested reading .

I would suggest that you stop asking me to stop asking for proof off genocidal policies . I have already given up asking .

As you said "The fact that there might not have explicitly genocidal policies is irrelevant if the actions of generations toward ‘assimilation’ was focused on achievement of the same thing."

I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations . They are being told the opposite . You can disagree as nearly all on this thread share your view .

Exactly the same with Stolen Generation !

As you said