The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:03am

Sheesh....enough....again.

Trying to throw blanket theories over society from out on the fringes, and on a surfing wesbite.

Seriously, save the anger.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:13am

Geez, i could have put the house on that happening. I stand by my earlier post and a “quick google” will also show the centuries old Japanese whaling tradition was limited to (1) inshore coastal waters by (2) only a few coastal villages and (3) involved the opportunistic netting of whales straying too close to shallow protected seas. I also remember whaling was only practiced on one or two of the many japanese islands so to argue it was a common practice throughout the entire island chain or country is just false. As false and as misleading as to quote the Japanese Whaling Assn as @info has done above .... an organisation known for the buying IWC votes of poor pacific nations and its wholesale misinformation. Sort of like quoting Trump on truth telling and integrity in govt.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:16am

Stu….This attitude of Blindboy’s is the face of modern racism. It’s literally segregation based on bloodlines and skin colour. Yet this is what we aren’t allowed to discuss ? This attitude of Blindboy’s is an anchor from the past and it’s stopping humanity from moving forward to a more harmonious, peaceful world. You know this is true yourself. Racial identity politics are a trap, a dead end, a throw back mode of thought.

Now we aren’t allowed to discuss an idea because it’s controversial despite it being incontrovertible truth? That’s the worst type of censorship there is Stu. It’s a shame you want to quell it just because you might get more hate mail from the other vociferous throwbacks out there who think that their race defines them and means anything at all and that the world should be in thrall to petty and outdated race politics which will continue divide and erode society until 33000AD unless we put a stop to it.

I’m not angry. I only find Blindboy to be as self impressed dullard, but I know the perpetuation of this racial division rubbish to be dark ages shit. You do do. Say so and say it loud. The more of us that finally race our voices and say “Enough!” to this rubbish , the sooner it crawls back into the ooze of evil ideas.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:25am

Oh FFS...

Read back just how silly that whole statement is.

The face of modern racism...? Absolutism writ large. Can't even be arsed responding to that now. Got fifty other things more pressing.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:37am

Of course it’s the definition of racism and the concept that people can be separated by skin colour without it being racist is the modern face of racism . That’s why Blindboy can’t even begin to defend his sub human ideology when I pose it word for word in another context. It’s cult of bloodlines rubbish.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:42am

Your relentless anger and inflexible intellect is fascinating, that's my take home point right now.

You've called him a racist, called me a censor, claim you have incontrovertible truth.

Seriously, go outside and wonder at the world for a little while. Don't try to understand it. Just observe it without judgement.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:56am

Guy face it, you were wrong and my statement was factually correct.

You probably got your misinformation from a poorly researched media article, the source i provided is obviously from those that know, because they are the ones who ancestors were doing the hunting.

Just eat some humble pie for once, you thought you were calling me out and it backfired.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 9:57am
indo-dreaming wrote:

@BB

So does this mean you agree with Japan that it's their right to continue whaling as its something they have done for centuries and is part of their culture?

If not, then why not?...what's the difference?

Heres the quote again, as you can see no mention of it being common practice or practiced widely or eaten widely.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:02am
stunet wrote:

Your relentless anger and inflexible intellect is fascinating, that's my take home point right now.

You've called him a racist, called me a censor, claim you have incontrovertible truth.

Seriously, go outside and wonder at the world for a little while. Don't try to understand it. Just observe it without judgement.

My inflexible intellect? I’m the one thinking outside of the fucked up orthodoxy.

Here’s an analogy you’ll get your head around: You’re a bouncer on a nightclub door and it’s “Friday fishing night!” Your boss tells you that you can only let in those with brown skin and not those with red, yellow or white skin.

Is your boss racist? Yes. Very much so. Yet this is the concept your flexible intellect can’t appreciate.

Anyway mate, I’ll go outside and the wonder of nature will erase my mind so that I fall into line with the fucked up orthodoxy of modern racial identity politics and everyone will be happy being defined by their skin colour* and who their great grandparents fucked two hundred years ago.

*Actually skin colour has nothing to do with it anymore. It’s purely who you “culturally identify” with …..it’s the racism for the diehards after we’ve all been in the Big Melting Pot.

Listen to these inflexible dickheads….wrong side of history guys. We’ve chosen to double down on racism as the best way to move past it!

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:06am
Blowin wrote:

Stu….This attitude of Blindboy’s is the face of modern racism. It’s literally segregation based on bloodlines and skin colour. Yet this is what we aren’t allowed to discuss ? This attitude of Blindboy’s is an anchor from the past and it’s stopping humanity from moving forward to a more harmonious, peaceful world. You know this is true yourself. Racial identity politics are a trap, a dead end, a throw back mode of thought.

Now we aren’t allowed to discuss an idea because it’s controversial despite it being incontrovertible truth? That’s the worst type of censorship there is Stu. It’s a shame you want to quell it just because you might get more hate mail from the other vociferous throwbacks out there who think that their race defines them and means anything at all and that the world should be in thrall to petty and outdated race politics which will continue divide and erode society until 33000AD unless we put a stop to it.

I’m not angry. I only find Blindboy to be as self impressed dullard, but I know the perpetuation of this racial division rubbish to be dark ages shit. You do do. Say so and say it loud. The more of us that finally race our voices and say “Enough!” to this rubbish , the sooner it crawls back into the ooze of evil ideas.

Still no response from BLINDboy?

The truth is without debate. Hang your head in shame you silly old bugger.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:05am

BTW. Back on topic, thinking about it more, maybe a balanced view would be that those people living a traditional life style should have tradationsl hunting rights but only using traditional hunting methods, for instance Mentawai traditional tribes deep in the forest, but all others no matter ethnicity should be treated under the same laws and regulations.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:07am

"My inflexible intellect? I’m the one thinking outside of the fucked up orthodoxy."

Yes exactly, your inflexible intellect. To think that someone who approves of these tiny examples of indigenuous culture, so small as to barely register on the world inventory, and green lit as concessions for people thrust into the modern world, somehow constitute racism equivalent to Nazism shows a patent inability to see nuance in the world.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:13am

How do you engage with the wilfully ignorant? You don’t, back to your swill and odious hypocrisy info ....

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:14am
indo-dreaming wrote:

BTW. Back on topic, thinking about it more, maybe a balanced view would be that those people living a traditional life style should have tradationsl hunting rights but only using traditional hunting methods, for instance Mentawai traditional tribes deep in the forest, but all others no matter ethnicity should be treated under the same laws and regulations.

The intrinsically racist attitude of Blindboy is on topic, Indo. It’s exactly the conversation that Australia and the world needs to have. Do we want to perpetuate and entrench the evil ideology of racism where we define people by their ancestry and segregate society along ridiculous and diluted ancestral lines?

Or do we move into the light and forget that dark ages racist rubbish where people are nothing more than who their great, great grandparents fucked hundreds of years ago.

THIS is the conversation. Old and confused attitudes like Blindboy’s are dangerous impediments to human harmony and unity. We need to send those fools back into the swamp and move into an era where their racism is recognised as the throwback medieval bullshit it is.

I’m not just attacking Blindboy- though his determination to compel humanity to its evil past justifies it- I’m actually trying to help him too.

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:16am

"Old and confused attitudes like Blindboy’s are dangerous impediments to human harmony and unity. "

Ha ha ha, who could have guessed that I am a threat to humanity? This stuff just gets funnier and funnier......but sad in a pathetic kind of way too.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:41am
blindboy wrote:

"Old and confused attitudes like Blindboy’s are dangerous impediments to human harmony and unity. "

Ha ha ha, who could have guessed that I am a threat to humanity? This stuff just gets funnier and funnier......but sad in a pathetic kind of way too.

Blindboy, your racist attitude has no place in modern society. You have no attempted to confront your shortcomings. It’s best for Australia and the world if people like you just shuffle back into the swamp and take your divisive bloodline purity cult with you.

The Nazis believed the Jews were irreconcilably different from the Germans based on ancestry and bloodlines. You believe the same of modern Australians. Take your throwback bullshit and go away.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:44am

Mate...cut it out.

All morning now. You screaming the same insults you so vehemently complained about when they were directed your way.

Just stop it. Go outside and chill the fuck out.

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goofyfoot Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:53am

Slow morning up the coast?

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 10:56am
stunet wrote:

Mate...cut it out.

All morning now. You screaming the same insults you so vehemently complained about when they were directed your way.

Just stop it. Go outside and chill the fuck out.

Where’s the insult in the above post?

Blindboy policed Superfreak’s ivermectin posts like a freakin hall monitor for days in order to “ prevent public harm”, yet here he is spouting proper racist rubbish and you don’t want me calling it out?

His rubbish does infuriate me. It re- embeds racist divisions into modern society just as we were making steps away from that historical pitfall. He thinks that racism is stating that a virus originated in a certain country yet will proudly determine that humans living side by side are treated differently based on who their great grandparents chose as sexual partners.

It’s disgraceful shit.

I said Blindboy was a self impressed dullard. That is literally the only insult. I have factually defined his behaviour and if he doesn’t like the way it sounds then he should alter his behaviour.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:14am

"Yet here he is spouting proper racist rubbish and you don’t want me calling it out?"

No, I don't.

Same as I don't want VL or others calling out your racism.

If you haven't fucking realised yet, there are varying perception about the word, and only those blinded by their own absolutism - that's you - believe they understand it.

I don't agree with some things that BB says, but it's pretty damn easy to understand why he is conceding indigenuous fishing rights might be fair, and it has fuck all to do with some second wave of racism or whatever bullshit it is you're going on with.

Point being, social upheaval is a violent process. The more 'traditional' a culture, the harder it is to adjust to the moden world. Only a fuckwit would think that making small grandfather concessions to indigenuous communities consitutes racism. Most people think it's valid; that it softens the blow of the inexorable march towards civilisation.

In large part those communities have a use by date on them as the younger generation moves towards the modern world and all its accoutrements, so this is a small contradiction - and one that will soon fade out naturally- and it's happening out on the fringes of the third world.

Stop equating it to Nazism or whatever. It's fucking stupid.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:30am

If it’s absolutist to believe that perpetuating racial divisions is racism then I’m an unapologetic absolutist.

I know that pandering to those who want to define themselves by some notion of their ancestry is a recipe for disaster and disharmony. There’s no positives which are going to arise from indulging that bullshit. Particularly when it’s done so arbitrarily.

You can’t have a united society when you foster division. This is a self evident truth. The Blindboys of the world would have you think that their retrograde ideology is something we should aspire to. It’s not. It’s garbage and needs to be thrown on the garbage heap.

I made the analogy that indigenous British should have special privileges over the descents of immigrants and there was no response. There was no response because there is no defence of such an obviously racist and medieval racist attitude.

You think that fostering and perpetuating racial apartheid between the analogous British indigenous and the descendants of immigrants is going to erode social divisions? Hardly. Why do you think it’s appropriate here?

If you don’t agree then it’s time to update your thinking too.

BTW….I’ve been erroneously labelled a racist by Blindboy and his fellow dumfck travellers for years on here and beside yourself voicing a bit of disagreement here and there, nothing was ever said or done to quell their slanderous bullshit. Now when there is true racism you want me to chill out to keep the peace? WTF?

He wants people treated differently , winners and losers, based on some arbitrary artefact of bloodline and heritage. That’s racism.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:30am

No, I imagine there was no response because it was a stupid analogy. I wouldn't have responded either, and the fact you continue going at it shows just how inflexible and rigid, not to mention aggressive, your thinking is.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:32am
stunet wrote:

No, I imagine there was no response because it was a stupid analogy. I wouldn't have responded either, and the fact you continue going at it shows just how inflexible and rigid, not to mention aggressive, your thinking is.

You’re surprised at my aggression towards a bloke who threatened to sue me after he got his panties in a bunch one day? After he’s erroneously called me a racist, homophobic, bigoted, misogynist for years?

Sure.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:38am

"He wants people treated differently , winners and losers, based on some arbitrary artefact of bloodline and heritage. That’s racism."

Far as I can see, he's advocating for a concession based on something else entirely: their standing in relation to the modern world.

As an aside: I used to think that the inability to see nuance and only view the world in black and white would be a blessing - no equivocating, no anxiety over holding two beliefs at once - yet if relentless anger is the tradeoff then I'll stick with shades of grey.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:39am

What’s wrong with the analogy?

Perhaps you should locate the analogy in Ireland if you don’t think England is appropriate?

You think it’s not racist to have the invaded and occupied Irish given privileges over that of someone who’s ancestors moved there two hundred years ago? Despite the Irish being interracially bred for the same two hundred years?

That’s madness. Pure racist rubbish. That thinking needs binning if our modern world can ever truly move forward.

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:41am

Jesus mate, let Stu get back to work. I really couldn't care less what you post about me.

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stunet Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:42am

Take a breath, mate.

They're just braining the odd dugong, not invading Ireland.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:46am
stunet wrote:

"He wants people treated differently , winners and losers, based on some arbitrary artefact of bloodline and heritage. That’s racism."

Far as I can see, he's advocating for a concession based on something else entirely: their standing in relation to the modern world.

As an aside: I used to think that the inability to see nuance and only view the world in black and white would be a blessing - no equivocating, no anxiety over holding two beliefs at once - yet if relentless anger is the tradeoff then I'll stick with shades of grey.

So it’s not a truism because you think I’m sitting here red faced and screaming whilst I type on my iPad? Here’s the thing…..it’s a perfect rainy day here. We have been praying for this rain for weeks. I’m sitting here quietly and pleasantly typing whilst house bound on care duty for someone. Looking out my window at a beautiful tain soaked forest. Just because my language is forceful doesn’t mean I’m mindlessly blind with rage. My frustration at the attitude of the Blindboy of the world hasn’t circumvented my ability to ponder an issue from multiple perspectives.

I’ve thought long and hard about this issue and the resolute outcome is that retention of any racial division is an anchor on societal progress. I’ll not apologise for that. People may believe that they’re doing something virtuous by promoting an “Us and Them “ mentality but they are very, very wrong.

BTW….so what if I was apoplectic with rage? I thought anger was an energy? I thought it took anger to get you off your arse and protest for change? I thought that anger was the last step before overcoming the obstacles towards progress?

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tonys-shirtfront Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:48am

Funny reading blowin accusing others of being racist, then read his comments about china on other threads. Not starting an argument, just pointing it out.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:50am
blindboy wrote:

Jesus mate, let Stu get back to work. I really couldn't care less what you post about me.

Besides my overriding lack of respect for who you are as a person, this is isnt t just about you. The attitude you proudly parade is incompatible with the modern world and it needs to be eradicated ASAP. If people like you were in charge we would still be measuring human skulls or different races to determine intelligence and treating eugenics as hard science.

Take your medieval beliefs with you back into the swamp.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 11:54am
tonys-shirtfront wrote:

Funny reading blowin accusing others of being racist, then read his comments about china on other threads. Not starting an argument, just pointing it out.

The China I refer to is a totalitarian mafia headed by a self appointed strongman who declared himself unquestionable ruler for life.

If you can’t discern my issue with that from the people who look Chinese down your local shops then it’s a problem at your end, not mine.

Have you ever heard me say that Anglo Australians should get special privileges over Chinese Australians? No , of course not. Because that is RACIST.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 12:34pm
GuySmiley wrote:

How do you engage with the wilfully ignorant? You don’t, back to your swill and odious hypocrisy info ....

Ha ha still trying to save face, now with insults.

If you are going to call me wilfully ignorant for believing the history and link provided, you need to actually provide something that says the history stated is not correct and points out why, not just an article that totally ignores these claims.

Its really not that hard to admit you are wrong, no great apology is needed, just do something like i did this morning when i thought i was wrong, and use a line like

"okay fair call" and make some excuse, or " okay you might be right" or make a joke about it like "whoops, should have fact checked that first" etc after all we are all human, and sometimes we get it wrong, especially when media feeds us bias crap.

The other day i had to admit i was wrong in another thread about the timeline of Trumps social; media ban, as i had just parroted what id heard in an interview, my excuse was i must have misinterpreted what he has said, I havent gone back to re-listen, but i swear he said it, maybe he was just wrong, anyway i should have fact checked it, because i was wrong.

At least take a little bit of ownership, especially when you think you are calling someone out and get it wrong.

Or if you dont want to take ownership, just ignore the thread for a day or two and let it blow over.

But trying to back peddle and save face even belittling others in the process is a pretty weak character trait.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 12:49pm
Blowin wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

BTW. Back on topic, thinking about it more, maybe a balanced view would be that those people living a traditional life style should have tradationsl hunting rights but only using traditional hunting methods, for instance Mentawai traditional tribes deep in the forest, but all others no matter ethnicity should be treated under the same laws and regulations.

The intrinsically racist attitude of Blindboy is on topic, Indo. It’s exactly the conversation that Australia and the world needs to have. Do we want to perpetuate and entrench the evil ideology of racism where we define people by their ancestry and segregate society along ridiculous and diluted ancestral lines?

Or do we move into the light and forget that dark ages racist rubbish where people are nothing more than who their great, great grandparents fucked hundreds of years ago.

THIS is the conversation. Old and confused attitudes like Blindboy’s are dangerous impediments to human harmony and unity. We need to send those fools back into the swamp and move into an era where their racism is recognised as the throwback medieval bullshit it is.

Im not real keen to get involved in the whole back and forth debate but I 100% agree with your comparison and what you are getting at, and 100% agree that division based on ethnicity is really backwards and basically a form of racism.

You probably should let it go though for now, go do something else for a bit as thread seems to be getting a bit heated.

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Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 12:55pm

Will do Indo.

Blindboy will never respond cause he’s a racist. It’s not going away though.

Catch ya Indo.

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blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 1:26pm

.

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bluediamond Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 2:42pm

Did Pakistan invade England? Took over their culture? First i heard of it. Fark!!

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 3:12pm

I can see I just have to get a VHS copy of Nat Young’s History of Australian Surfing so I too can think of myself as an expert on all things to all men.

Constance B Gibson's picture
Constance B Gibson's picture
Constance B Gibson Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:13pm

Oh dear...

Always the same old constant presence in SN's thread travails over the journey. Can't be blamed on anyone else. When will the penny finally drop, Stuart?

Anyway - in the spirit of help and understanding - from The Tre-Mendously Excellent Macrobusiness Site™:

Psychological Projection -

Projection is an unconscious defence mechanism stemming from the ego. In projection, you take an unacceptable part of yourself, such as your feelings, thoughts, tendencies, and fears, disown it, and place it onto someone else. Projections contain our blind spots.

Projection can cloud your vision and skew your perception of reality. This makes it hard to see a situation for what it is, and instead, morphs a person or situation into something it is not. When you engage in projection, you become susceptible to self-victimization and blaming other people for something you need to address within yourself.

Notice if you're exhibiting these symptoms of projection:

a) Feeling overly hurt, defensive, or sensitive about something someone has said or done.

b) Allowing someone to push your buttons and get under your skin in a way that others do not.

c) Feeling highly reactive and quick to blame.

d) Difficulty being objective, getting perspective, and standing in the other person's shoes.

e) Noticing that this situation or your reactivity is a recurring pattern.

To help you integrate the information you've gathered above, and as a final step that includes a healthy somatic process going forward, we offer the following advice:

PISS OFF...

And go do something in the real world.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:19pm

Remember about a year ago when Facto did the following things before running off into the night , loaded nappy bulging in the arse, dummy landing in the dirt :

a) Feeling overly hurt, defensive, or sensitive about something someone has said or done.

b) Allowing someone to push your buttons and get under your skin in a way that others do not.

c) Feeling highly reactive and quick to blame.

d) Difficulty being objective, getting perspective, and standing in the other person's shoes.

e) Noticing that this situation or your reactivity is a recurring pattern.

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:23pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Blowin wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

BTW. Back on topic, thinking about it more, maybe a balanced view would be that those people living a traditional life style should have tradationsl hunting rights but only using traditional hunting methods, for instance Mentawai traditional tribes deep in the forest, but all others no matter ethnicity should be treated under the same laws and regulations.

The intrinsically racist attitude of Blindboy is on topic, Indo. It’s exactly the conversation that Australia and the world needs to have. Do we want to perpetuate and entrench the evil ideology of racism where we define people by their ancestry and segregate society along ridiculous and diluted ancestral lines?

Or do we move into the light and forget that dark ages racist rubbish where people are nothing more than who their great, great grandparents fucked hundreds of years ago.

THIS is the conversation. Old and confused attitudes like Blindboy’s are dangerous impediments to human harmony and unity. We need to send those fools back into the swamp and move into an era where their racism is recognised as the throwback medieval bullshit it is.

Im not real keen to get involved in the whole back and forth debate but I 100% agree with your comparison and what you are getting at, and 100% agree that division based on ethnicity is really backwards and basically a form of racism.

You probably should let it go though for now, go do something else for a bit as thread seems to be getting a bit heated.

Wonder what the more than 20 indigenous mobs living in the Kimberly would make of this conversation?

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:24pm

The worst bit was that he didn’t even tell his mate Bluediamond that he’d quit of his own accord. He did this because he liked the idea of people talking about him and believing he was a brave, voiceless Martyr in the battle against tyranny!

The idea that he’d hung his mate Bluediamond out to dry and rail to his defence, whilst everyone else wondered what the fuck was going on, didn’t matter to Facto. To him exploiting Bluediamond’s misplaced loyalty and friendly concern was a small price to pay to have his toddler tantruming arse covered.

Run away ! Run away !

The glass chin of Facto is back. Right alongside Blindboy with his rubber spine. Twin tantrums screaming from the crib about how unfairly they’ve been treated.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:26pm
I focus wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Blowin wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

BTW. Back on topic, thinking about it more, maybe a balanced view would be that those people living a traditional life style should have tradationsl hunting rights but only using traditional hunting methods, for instance Mentawai traditional tribes deep in the forest, but all others no matter ethnicity should be treated under the same laws and regulations.

The intrinsically racist attitude of Blindboy is on topic, Indo. It’s exactly the conversation that Australia and the world needs to have. Do we want to perpetuate and entrench the evil ideology of racism where we define people by their ancestry and segregate society along ridiculous and diluted ancestral lines?

Or do we move into the light and forget that dark ages racist rubbish where people are nothing more than who their great, great grandparents fucked hundreds of years ago.

THIS is the conversation. Old and confused attitudes like Blindboy’s are dangerous impediments to human harmony and unity. We need to send those fools back into the swamp and move into an era where their racism is recognised as the throwback medieval bullshit it is.

Im not real keen to get involved in the whole back and forth debate but I 100% agree with your comparison and what you are getting at, and 100% agree that division based on ethnicity is really backwards and basically a form of racism.

You probably should let it go though for now, go do something else for a bit as thread seems to be getting a bit heated.

Wonder what the more than 20 indigenous mobs living in the Kimberly would make of this conversation?

They know that natural resources have to be protected by everyone and that extinct abalone don’t feed anyone.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:34pm

Fatal Contact by Peter Dowling is a clear eyed look at the epidemics that came with colonisation. Well worth a read.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:36pm
blindboy wrote:

Fatal Contact by Peter Dowling is a clear eyed look at the epidemics that came with colonisation. Well worth a read.

Yeah, it’s called nature bloke. It happens to all animals….man included.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:38pm

That was a quick read.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:51pm

Oh great now stealing really lame lines from others, ones that don't even make any sense.

And claiming I'm the expert?...I'm not the one making claims without evidence to support them.

GuySmiley wrote:

Actually, traditional Japanese whaling was limited to just a few coastal villages and limited to inshore waters because the whalers were in very small non motorised boats. Eating whale meat is not a centuries old Japanese tradition as falsely stated above but let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good story. Whale meat is not a broadly consumed traditional Japanese food, not now not never!

Okay im guessing you still havent found a link to rebut your factually incorrect post.

Let's break your post down.

1. "Actually, traditional Japanese whaling was limited to just a few coastal villages and limited to inshore waters because the whalers were in very small non motorised boats."

This is possibly correct, but was never part of the argument

2. "Eating whale meat is not a centuries old Japanese tradition as falsely stated above but let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good story"

Firstly my original post(see below) never mentioned why Japanese hunted whales and made no mention of eating whale meat.

But as my link on the other page clearly shows, the history of whaling in Japan goes back to the 12th century, BTW. I had a little more time to look a little deeper and there is quite a few other pages that also support whaling going back to the 12th century.

Maybe they are all wrong???...But hey Guy knows better right?..

Anyway most are websites you might not trust cause apparently Trump, um Trump, but even National Geographic website says

"People have been whaling for thousands of years. Norwegians were among the first to hunt whales, as early as 4,000 years ago. The Japanese may have been doing so even earlier.

Traditions as varied as the Inuit (who hunted in the Arctic Ocean), Basque (who hunted in the Atlantic), and Japanese (who hunted in the Pacific) relied on whales to provide material goods, as well as part of their cultural identity."

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/big-fish-history-whaling/

Seems to also indicate fishing in the ocean, but look really who cares.

It's probably fair to assume that it has been eaten since the 12th century though, and expect used for many other types of things fat etc

Wiki whale meat claims its been eaten in Japan since 800AD, with some reference to other articles for that source.

3."Whale meat is not a broadly consumed traditional Japanese food, not now not never"

Again my post never said or suggested it was widely eaten so im not sure where this came from, i dont think the Japanese want to hunt whales to feed the wider community anyway.

Interestingly enough your statement is also false, and shows that you really dont know what your are talking about.

In fact "according to the Japan Whaling Association. From the late 1940s to the mid-1960s whale was the single biggest source of meat in Japan, not because they wanted to, but because they were desperate during the poor years following World War II"

https://comuniti.org/economy/the-controversial-story-of-japanese-whaling/

Anyway beautiful day down here on the coast had a fun little splash out front today, pity your stuck in lockdown.

My post below for reference.

indo-dreaming wrote:

@BB

So does this mean you agree with Japan that it's their right to continue whaling as its something they have done for centuries and is part of their culture?

If not, then why not?...what's the difference?

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:53pm
blindboy wrote:

That was a quick read.

Wait, let me guess…..Due to the stored reserves of resources and wealth enabled by hierarchical agrarian societies , humans tend to exist in crowded squalored conditions. Close association with domesticated animals and the microcosm of interdependent species such as insects and rodents are then conducive to the mutation and spread of virus and bacteria. Immunity developed over time within these societies is not possessed by the societies colonised. Death ensues.

Subsequent handwringing by following generations as to how unfair the potential weaponisation of inherited immunity and unique disease upon other societies. Failure to acknowledge that all societies throughout history have used whatever advantage at their disposal to dominate and subjugate their rivals.

AKA ….They infected us with disease before we had the numbers or opportunity to cave their heads in with clubs!

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 4:56pm

Now read part two about syphilis and gonorrhoea.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 5:06pm

The lengths the wilfully ignorant will go to demonstrate that they are, well, wilfully ignorant .... carry on info

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Oct 2021 at 5:02pm
GuySmiley wrote:

The lengths the wilfully ignorant will go to to demonstrate that they are, well, wilfully ignorant .... carry on info

OMG how's the irony.

Even with all the facts highlighted right in front of you, you wilfully ignore them, because you cant admit you were wrong.