A Different High - Ray Collins and Jiu Jitsu

Gra Murdoch
Talking Heads

When surfing gets under our skin, it’s so consuming that it feels – for many of us, I suspect – incomprehensible that any other activity could occupy even a fraction of that space in our lives. I can remember as a young bloke, a mate telling me that ‘there’s more to life than surfing’, and it registered as a mild betrayal and insult.

I remember also designing North-Shore-Winter recap features in ASL mag, and feeling weirdly peeved reading accounts of the pros choosing to play golf when there were waves to be surfed. As a result, if it came down to two surf photos equally worthy of publication, I must confess to running the shot of the golf-enthusiast smaller than he-who-did-nothing-but-surf.

As it turns out, there’s all sorts of other pursuits surfers dig without having their first love diminished. So while surfing’ll always be number one for mine, it seems Huey’s cool with sharing. And in fact, time spent in other ponds often complements and informs our surfing lives.

So that’s the gist of this column: every so often I’ll yak with a surfer about a pursuit that might be comparable to their love of surfing. First up is photographer Ray Collins and his newfound love of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - though after breaking four ribs and puncturing a lung in a horror wipeout last Thursday, Ray won't be rolling for a while. Get better, son.

And finally, the column title 'A Different High' takes its cue from the 2001 album of that name by fine Melbourne band Even. And as with all their efforts, it’s worth a listen.

Cheers, and suggestions welcome for subjects. 

Gra.

 Ray Collins: Photographer, 38, Thirroul.

(Ray’s been surfing for thirty years, practicing Brazillian Jiu Jitsu for one year)

Jiu Jitsu’s been in my periphery for a while. I’ve known so many surfers from all over the place – Hawaii, The US, Bali, all over Australia – who’s circles didn’t really overlap but I knew they all did Jiu Jitsu, and there was a similarity between them. You could tell there was something going on.

Initially I was hesitant to jump into it, because it sucks to suck at something new. Often my mind will conduct fearful scenarios that have no basis in reality and I can be defeated before I even start.

I remember the nerves and anxiety when my mate Shaun Anderson took me along for the first time, but the moment I walked in you could immediately tell you were in the company of a good crew, and there was something positive at work.

Seminar with Garage Jiu Jitsu founder Gui Neves (front middle) and coach Ryan Walsh in the blue gi, next to Gui

OK, so the best way I can describe Jiu Jitsu (or more correctly, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu) is as a grappling martial art, one-on-one, non-striking combat that’s all about using your opponent’s actions against themselves.

It’s complex: there’s infinite permutations and combinations of movement, counter-movement, action and reaction. It’s framing, using your opponent’s limbs as levers, it’s joint locks, it’s manipulation of the spine. Like, if you move your opponent’s head a fraction to the left or the right, they lose all power in their base structure – rendering their movements ineffective. And if you look at each section of the limbs alone: like the arm – shoulder, elbow, wrist, or a leg – hip, knee, ankle, each one of those presents multiple opportunities for attack.

It’s impossible to articulate how testing and frustrating and rewarding it actually is. It’s like drowning on dry land for six minutes straight. I could do it for the rest of my life and only get to learn half of it.

You watch inexperienced people like myself and you’re just using so much physical (and mental) effort: it’s all a struggle. Then you watch two black belts or high-level coloured belts rolling together, and it’s honestly like watching water. There’s no effort, it’s a lesson in efficiency of movement, it’s so fluid. There’s an answer for every question and vice versa.

You can be rolling with someone experienced, they could be older, smaller, physically weaker than you, and you’ll exhaust yourself, while they stay perfectly composed, and effortlessly gentle, while completely destroying you at every turn.

Part of the challenge is how to process and store all the information you’re taking on from the instructor and just the process itself. It’s like you’re a basket and there’s just sand and pebbles and rocks constantly being poured in and just overflowing everywhere. And you’re trying to retain as much as you can. 

And so you turn up day after day, you finally feel like you’re making real progress – you’re lasting longer against the experienced guys, or your submitting guys who are at your level, then all of a sudden you just get put in your place – more than once I’ve driven home, doing 10km/h under the speed limit, with no music on, just staring ten feet in front of the car, the whole drive home wondering what the hell just happened over the past few hours.

I guess the most obvious cross-benefit and link with surfing is – especially when there’s a lot of energy in the ocean – you’re in that similar elevated heart rate, fight-or-flight state, and so you learn to be comfortable feeling uncomfortable. 

And it’s like you can’t overpower the ocean anyway, so you kind of work with it, be fluid.

And the more you practice that discipline of calmness, the less you’re at the mercy of your reactions.

Ray swimming in Hawaii (Photo by Dante Bucci / @dbooch)

Modern life is generally pretty safe: you don’t have to go into battle, you don’t have to hunt for your food, or evade a sabre toothed tiger. You’re not pushed in that way. And for all the hardship, I think that element of danger also played a role in the full expression of our lives.

Jiu Jitsu can fulfil that role. There’s rigorous protocols that make it a safe practice, It’s built on the foundation of ‘respect for all’ BUT you’re trying, literally, to choke someone out, to render them unconscious. 

You’ve slapped hands and done a little fist bump, and it’s like, “I see you, we are mutual, we’re here as friends, now let’s try to fucking kill each other.” There’s no hate or aggression or weirdness. Just total respect. It’s a little club, you go there and put pyjamas on and try to choke your friend out. It’s a real good bond you share with your friends on the mat.

About to start a round of rolling with fellow surfer and friend David Hyslop (Photo by Garage Jiu Jitsu Wollongong / @garagejiujitsuwollongong)

It’s called the gentle art for good reason, and it IS gentle but it’s so effective. There’s lots of scope for training in law enforcement I reckon, as ways of de-escalation. Not just as practical, non-harmful means of restraint and compliance, but also in helping the mindset and composure of the enforcers.

I’ll go to Jiu JItsu two to three times a week at least, but sometimes up to six. Haven’t had any injuries so far, I’m just sore every day! But you get used to that level of sore. 

I’m a white belt, one stripe. I’m almost as new to it as you can get, and I love it.

// RAY COLLINS (as shared with GRA MURDOCH)

*If you’ve got a got a question for Ray about Jiu Jitsu, post it in the comments here and if we get a coupla we’ll have a follow up yarn with Ray.

Comments

JackStance's picture
JackStance's picture
JackStance commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 11:55am

Nice one Ray! looks like fun abound.

Breathe. Murdoch's empire will one day fail to control our minds.

juegasiempre's picture
juegasiempre's picture
juegasiempre commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 12:19pm

It’s called the gentle art for good reason....Really?

All my friends that have done BJJ over the years have a raft of injuries. Some minor, some worse ongoing back injuries. The risk/reward makes no sense. It's also pretty expensive. Plus there's a real risk of MRSA, which I watched one guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHcbXP3ci6Q&ab_channel=TheBerrics) who had it (not from BJJ), it nearly killed him, he survived but it melted the back of his retinas and now it's worse for him than not being able to see.

Surfing is way better, more fun, cheaper and gentle on the body despite feeling 'extreme'. Each to their own I guess.

My $0.02

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 12:28pm

"Surfing is way better, more fun, cheaper and gentle on the body"

Maybe you missed the bit in the intro abut Ray breaking four ribs and puncturing a lung last week, all done while surfing.

Also, last year I pulled into the carpark as Ray walked up the track, claret on tap from a head wound, after coming off second best with his rail, not to mention the time he got rolled across the rocks while shooting the wave that isn't at Kiama.

Rolling around in PJs on a nerf mat seems gentle in comparison.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 1:13pm

Yep. That’s what stops myself from starting up a physical contact sport at this age.

Otherwise it’d be a blast.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 1:17pm

You'll be fine, do it.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 1:30pm

I’m not worried about me. .....I don’t trust unleashing my incredible strength on mere mortals.

Jokes. I honestly think that I wouldn’t be flexible enough for that gear anymore and can easily imagine tearing something important. You reckon it’s achievable for a fella nearing fifty who’s range of motion was set in stone thirty years ago ?

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 1:54pm

I’m 49 this year, not particularly flexible or athletic but it’s not an issue.
One of the key realizations is that everyone develops their own game depending on strengths and weaknesses.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 3:33pm

I’ve got a bung knee which means I almost can’t squat . How do you reckon that’d work ? Still feasible ?

joesydney's picture
joesydney's picture
joesydney commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 11:50pm

My advice, get into it. Completely fucks your shoulders and stops you paddling... less people in the water so more waves for me .
Seriously a couple of Kimuras especially with overly enthusiastic opponents and you be out of the water for a while

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:18am

Gotta partially agree there, fight the chokes all you want but tap early on the joint locks.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:31am

Blowin can you kneel?
You could probably avoid squatting but most drills and rolling involve kneeling positions.

Fluiddreams's picture
Fluiddreams's picture
Fluiddreams commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 8:55am

A friend of mine had his neck broken in a BJJ competition years ago. He is wheelchair bound with no feeling from the neck down with little movement in one arm. A really top guy who has still has a sense of purpose. Was really hard to accept but that's the risk he was taking.

Fluiddreams's picture
Fluiddreams's picture
Fluiddreams commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 8:56am

A friend of mine had his neck broken in a BJJ competition years ago. He is wheelchair bound with no feeling from the neck down with little movement in one arm. A really top guy who has still has a sense of purpose. Was really hard to accept but that's the risk he was taking.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 2:25pm

Imagine getting your neck broken and the fight keeps going cause you can’t tap out.

Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 12:35pm

G-land 04
I seen a 70kg Brazil totally wipe the floor with a 105-110kg kiwi
Opened my eyes to ju jitsu

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 1:41pm

There’s gotta be more to this. Set the scene please and elaborate.

Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong's picture
Lottolonglong commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 2:50pm

Skinny Brazo didn't like being bullied by hulk
Ended in a wrestle out front of a cabin
Brazo could have easily maimed other guy but chose to be cool and submit him, it was all so effortless
I watched all the UFC matches on VHS back in the late 90's. To watch a guy who got his shit together on the floor against a huge guy with attitude and to have it fold over right in front of me was beautiful,the slightest moves from Brazo would see the Kiwi wincing in pain, Brazo knew the limit and didn't do major damage to Kiwi

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 5:45pm

Ha ha delightful, I can just picture it now.
You just never know what people can do do you

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 1:16pm

One of my coaches got hassled by a couple of bouncers down in Manly a few years ago.
Flogged both of them.
Pedro's about 5'9", about 70kg.
The shit's highly efficient, though I'm sure the Brazilian street fighter mentality didn't go astray.

rooftop's picture
rooftop's picture
rooftop commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 7:23pm

Not that skill doesn't matter, but a big part of it is just being comfortable with proximity to violence, in mixing it up with someone who's trying to hurt you.

Take a newbie in to the surf and they flee from an incoming wave, placing themselves right in the impact zone. A surfer takes one paddle forward and ducks under the lip as it passes harmlessly over them.

In my (limited) experience it's the same with fighters. They swing at you and you flinch and shy away. You swing at them and the bastards step IN, hands up and eyes open while your fist sails harmlessly over their shoulder.

scrotina's picture
scrotina's picture
scrotina commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 3:12pm

i've done bjj off and on for a few years.
i can't praise it enough as being the one of the most effective fighting arts.
it is hard on your body though. in theory, you go at each other hard and you can tap at any time to avoid injury, but sometimes things slip, or you dont tap in time. also, as an older guy now, i'm not as flexible as i used to be and its easy to get muscle strains when you are exerting yourself like that.
overall very worthwhile.

canetoad's picture
canetoad's picture
canetoad commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 3:15pm

Heard of a lot of men and women getting some fairly serious injuries from this art.
Surfing might take a back seat.
Did martial art for 30 plus years. Good stuff, but no need for constant injuries. Not necessary.

canetoad

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 3:15pm

Ray is a fantastic human being who possesses many great skills (how's the soul arch!) , but over the last year - and indeed, confirmed by this piece - I've come to greatly appreciate his ability to communicate. Softly spoken, deftly written, he's a fascinating bloke. If you haven't already, check out his interview with Richard Fidler.

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/ray-collins/12108518

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 8:06pm

Yep. Was a good read whatever your feelings on the topic.

Always good to hear about differing journeys through life.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 3:34pm

doesn't appeal to me at all, I like getting away from people more than spending hours in a sweaty embrace with them.

but more than anything , who has the time for a new hobby as an adult?

flat out getting my go outs and fishing sessions in per week, let alone spending more hours doing another hobby.

Anyone do any actual striking MMA?

Gra Murdoch's picture
Gra Murdoch's picture
Gra Murdoch commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 5:29pm

Fishing's defs on the list hey.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 6:11pm

the one big difference with fishing as a hobby , is when I have a good session the whole family has a material benefit.
that stack of fillets is a great feeling.

and if you like danger, try rockfishing solo at night.

actually, don't.

Gra Murdoch's picture
Gra Murdoch's picture
Gra Murdoch commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 6:23pm

They're so different as to be kinda uncomparable hey. (incomparable? uncomparable?) Looking forward to yakking with Laurie T about fishing, Or maybe Nav who's v devoted. It'd have to be the closest cousin to the surfing caper hey.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 7:01pm

I look forwards to reading it.

seemed to be more closely correlated back in the day and tied to a definition of being a waterman.

being able to play and get a feed from the ocean.

now being a waterman is more defined by how many shiny toys you have in the garage to play with, preferably plastered with red bull stickers in matching colour schemes.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 8:10pm

It doesn’t get the same attention but spear fishing is the closest to surfing. Fishing is a distant second.

I know you’re not a fan of divers spoiling your fishing Freeride but you should jump in with some proper spearo crew and see what’s what if you haven’t already.

Far easier to find situations more immediately demanding of your unreserved presence than the vast majority of surf sessions.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 8:25pm

agreed. I did a lot of spearing/free diving in Hawaii and some pacific islands, and did a bit around here.

but to be honest when the shark sich got heavy I lost the bottle for it.

was talking a bloke yesterday who used to spear the cape a lot and he said the same thing.

amazing feeling in the blue water though, when your thoughts and brain slow down and your body starts to feel so at home at depth.

that a unique feeling, very surreal, very dream like.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 8:31pm

Sharks ended the fun for a lot of people.

Pops's picture
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Pops commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 4:48pm

Yup, nothing quite like that feeling of total calm & slowness when free diving.

Fringe benefit is the extra confidence & calm it gives you in heavier water - knowing you've got the lungs to spend a few minutes chilling underwater helps you relax when you need to! Highly recommend anyone who hasn't given it a go to do so (with a buddy!)

He who hesitates is lost

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:25am

Freeride you haven’t lived until you’ve had some bastard sitting on your chest and his sweat is streaming down his face and then onto yours, with the occasional direct hit right in your eye.

tman's picture
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tman commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 2:58pm

I've done Krav Maga for the last couple sof years and it has improved my surfing fitness and strenght without high risk of injury keeping me out of the water. It's a horizontal fighting system that employs elements form various martial arts, including BJJ, and is highly effective in real life, street scenarios.

I've always struggled a bit in the big surf, I'd get real anxious when I saw a set coming that I knew I had to get through and my heart rate would go through the roof. The biggest improvement Krav has provided for my surfing is the ability to control my breathing, and therefore heart rate. Highly reccomend it for those who may be curioius.

you're not as good as you think you are!

Jono's picture
Jono's picture
Jono commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 4:11pm

Towards the end of last year a few of the dads from the local junior AFL club organised a weekly 'masters' AFL session here on the Tweed. Nothing serious, just some warm ups and training drills and then a short game of touch AFL, and without the full commitment of joining a proper club/team. Very mellow and everybody is between 30-50 so nobody pushes it too hard. Word spread around and we get some good numbers now, and it's a similar break from reality as surfing - eg. while out there on the field you're not really thinking about anything except running and kicking and a bit of banter. And of course a couple of beers afterwards helps too. So yeah it's a good diversion from surfing and also good for the body and brain.

Ash's picture
Ash's picture
Ash commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 4:12pm

Martial arts are an excellent way to keep fit, I trained with 2 of my kids when they were younger and highly recommend it for kids. But once the we stopped ( 5 years ) my knee and back stopped aching too, A mate, a Karate black belt and instructor, had a ticker attack on the floor while sorting some young bloke during a lesson. Surfing is far more fun when past a certain age.

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 7:07am

Pretty popular but the injury potential is real. A lot of stress on joints and backs. It seems a bit addictive to keep pushing the limits cause getting beaten over and over is frustrating - so moderation keeps getting forgotten. A guy I know had multiple days off work due to various injuries and some were ones you live with forever (disc bulge in his early 20s!).

The number one issue I have found getting older is that ligaments are vulnerable and do not heal well. I avoid anything that puts unusual stresses on them. Think of an older oocy strap starting to fray. I looked at some images of torn rotator cuffs and you could see wear and tear like an old pair of jeans starting to wear out in spots.. If they scanned your hip joints the fluid would be full of micro particles of worn cartilage. Backs and necks are also quite vulnerable to unusual twists etc. The back was never designed to do many extreme twisting movements. Even "gentle" old yoga has some very unnatural movements.
.
It is all hidden under the skin but your body is slowly wearing out and has weaknesses waiting for some unusual stress to show up. In the gym you can add weight slowly and do controlled moves. Ju Jitsu has someone actively trying to create major unexpected and painful stress that wrong foots you and moves joints and ligaments outside their comfort zone.

Surfing has been kind to my body especially compared to a lot of people I know who played contact sports or did heavy manual jobs. Water is soft (unless of course you are a big wave surfer then it becomes quite like a ju jitsu roll).

Frogg

nextswell's picture
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nextswell commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 8:37pm

A lot of big names into Jiu Jitsu. Still think rock climbing is the ultimate. Core crew that climb are still like the guys first surfing Waimea in the late 50s. Hasn’t changed like surfing. Hitched to a rock 300m in the air in a sleeping bag. Hardcore! No thanks.

bbbird's picture
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bbbird commented Monday, 25 Jan 2021 at 11:56pm

Broke bones and tore muscles learning harder 'martial arts'... a low for surfing.
Softer, flowing energy styles suitable for surfers include Qigong & Taichi.
DIY : eg 16min warmup; Qigong mind & body coordination
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCicH-iz1oU
Taichi needs instruction; though you may never fall off your board after competing a Taichi 'form'....e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4VIw41R-PU
The challenge is 'to be totally in the moment/movement'.

bbbird

bbbird's picture
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bbbird commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 8:28pm

Bruce Lee describes the mastery of martial 'art' as an expressions of the person in the moment . This is possible with training and experience; in any endeavor... bon voyage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzQWYHHqvIw

bbbird

gavin007's picture
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gavin007 commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 10:31am

Be it Martial Arts or some other sport, there's definitely a gain by having an additional sport up your sleeve, especially during the long flat or onshore spells. Problem with me, I have too many - Jack of all Trades, Master of None !!

batfink's picture
batfink's picture
batfink commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 6:12pm

Nothing wrong with that Gav. Becoming a master of one trade means you know nothing about all the others.

I’ve got a great quote somewhere which I might dig out, essentially saying that specialisation is for ants, a human should be able do many things. Also stronger for your brain, creating new synapses which change the way you think, the way you approach everything. I’ve specialised in very little but delved into much. By the time you’re in your late 50s you start to realise that everything is fundamentally interconnected.

spiggy topes's picture
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spiggy topes commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:04pm

I don't weigh in much in the comment box but so much of this discussion rings many bells with me. I'm the wrong side of 67 and after 57 of those paddling out I suffered my first permanent surfing injury a year ago, at my home break on a smallish day with three other guys out. One rode right into me, smashed my face and nearly took out my right eye, now only 60 per cent functional. Much surgery, total lifestyle rethink.
So no more motorbikes, full wrap around ultradark sunnies, specs full time and reading and close work with a magnifying glass. Shit happens.
But the one thing I can still sync with way less surfing sessions is sailing. I'm talking small and light boats, pretty cheap, but still giving me the freedom to rely on water and wind for mind and body wellness. Apart from sunburn, not much risk of serious damage and that sort of dopamine-loaded bliss that follows the best wave you've ever surfed. You have to prepare, know and watch the weather and let it drive you. Better still if you build the boats yourself, though fine work is very time consuming for me now.
Thing is, it's all about the sea. I have a cuz born and living in the UK. She's got a Jamaican dad and the happiest she is - ever - is in the sea. We're all water, remember.

Gra Murdoch's picture
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Gra Murdoch commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 1:56pm

that's unreal spiggy!

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 2:04pm

Yes. Thanks

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 2:26pm

I'd love to give that a crack Spig.
got Bluewater experience but no small boat.

where would be a good place to start?

I see Hobies sitting around unused all over the place.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 2:38pm

Shoot down and pick me up and let’s go explore the remote pacific of our own volition.

Fuck the airlines.

But agree....sailing has always had a place in my life it’s just that I’ve yet to give it a proper go.

spiggy topes's picture
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spiggy topes commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 3:56pm

FR without question the easiest and cheapest sailing (or powered) skiff to build is a sharpie. Flat bottom, no compound curves in the sides, plumb stem, fairly cheap to build in plywood, and with a low unstayed rig a tonne of fun for all the family. Not so much rocker in the keel (unlike a dory, for instance) and pretty narrow so they can fly. But have a look on gumtree for a fixer upper, maybe a little class racing dinghy. They go pretty cheap. The simpler the better, rigging hardware and sails is where the money is.
My next new build will be a 24ft sharpie with a simple open-sided cabin just long enough for a pair of benches/bunks, and an unstayed ketch rig. Design was documented in 1942 but its probably 100 years older, used for fishing and oystering on the thin waters of Chesapeake Bay. Perfect for the shallow waters around me. For simple, fast and practical you can't beat a sailing work boat and in that regard, Americans did it best. Meanwhile, a sailing canoe would keep you on your toes.

andy-mac's picture
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andy-mac commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:24pm

Got right into BJJ in Bali for a couple of years with Synergy martial arts with Professor Niko Han (plug :)). There was an element of striking in the training at times, but mainly traditional style BJJ.
Loved it and felt was starting to progress after 18 months training 3 times minimum a week.
First session had a tiny 55kg Indo guy tying me in knots. Thought I would have to be gentle! Haha, very humbling first 6 months.
Back in Oz joined a gym, but was hard finding time with work and family commitments, and found if did not train 3 times a week, body would start to get too sore. Also being now in 50's got a couple of injuries ( did not want a bad one) and decided to call it a day as hope to keep surfing until stop breathing.
In nutshell, probably fittest I have ever been, met some great people, and learnt a lot.
Wish I could have gotten into it in my teens, 20's...

Botak

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:38pm

Apologies for getting off topic but just wondering if many here are into F45 or CrossFit type training and what your thoughts are on it.
Positives, negatives... the lot

icandig's picture
icandig's picture
icandig commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 1:35pm

Here's a couple of vids GF. I've never done it, (and am a long way from super fit myself) but for some reason have a negative opinion of it. It just looks a bit wrong to me.

Kellya's picture
Kellya's picture
Kellya commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 1:03pm

I’ve tried CrossFit type training, found it wasn’t really to my liking. Too much lifting/strength and didn’t really hit the cardio for me. Much easier (and cheaper) to reach my cardio goals by going for a run. Invest in a good running watch to really get the benefits. I reckon CrossFit training would be good if you wanted the strength element.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 1:37pm

Re; the Crossfit vid.

And people say BJJ is hard on the body and shoulders...

Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 3:13pm

Yes its funny how surfers assume that they are the chosen ones when it comes to feeling totally at one, connected to something greater, due to their passion for their pastime. Every passionate person in every field gets the same buzz, and some an even bigger adrenaline hit and addiction. One of the greatest ever Australians, Cathy Freeman, (when she's not busy addressing scummo's imbecilic, unbelievably soulless, cold and heartless tripe),

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/australia-day-2021-cathy-freeman-lashes-scot...

expressed it this way.

'“I feel like I’m being protected. My ancestors were the first people to walk on this land. It’s a really powerful force. Those other girls were always going to have to come up against my ancestors.'

“I’m feeling good. I’m feeling quiet. I’m feeling silent. I’m feeling strong. I’m feeling sharp. I’m not having a lot of contact on the ground. My body is feeling amazing. I’m cruising. I’m feeling light. I’m feeling fantastic. I can feel the sunshine out of my chest. The movement, the sprinting, and just that sense of flight – nothing else matters in those moments. They call it time. It just feels like a whole series of being in the moment. It’s like sheer bliss.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/olympics/cathy-freeman-the-best-w...

As I have been passionately involved in the health and fitness field for over 50 years, the BJJ thing has interested me. Looking at it purely from that angle, yes, injuries are all too real. I have helped many people rehab some serious injuries from its practice, and also address weakness's and imbalances.

Again, many, many myths abound. BJJ has weight classes (and gender and age classes), because, yep, in their own words, 'to make matches fairer and more exciting'. You know, so we won't get bored watching the bigger, stronger guys always win, and so all those pent up, latent myths and dreams won't get too shattered.

https://www.bjjsuccess.com/brazilian-jiu-jitsu-weight-classes/#:~:text=Y....

Royce Gracie was the poster boy, and maybe none of you remember, even though he got busted for drug cheating, for steroid use, failed both tests, and then, well, fibbed... again...

https://www.espn.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=2939575

'Now comes the lurid news that the lanky Brazilian has tested positive for nandrolone, an anabolic steroid. Forget about the idea that there was a urinalysis mix-up, Marx Brothers-style: his levels of the substance (which is produced by the body naturally in low levels) were more than 25 times what could be considered normal in an adult male.'

'Gracie is hardly possessed of an exaggerated physique, but he was clearly more sculpted for his June 2 fight with Kazushi Sakuraba than he was for a May 2006 match with Matt Hughes. In the former contest, he weighed in at 175 pounds; for Sakuraba, he was 188.'

'Yeeeaaahh... naaaarrr...aaaye mmmayyte... you'd 'afta assume I'm innacent but aye but... agin...' Except he wasn't.

Someone mentioned the beginning of Mixed Martial Arts, UFC, and, yes it always comes up in the field, some 'seen' shite, 'seen' sensei's maiming and smashing shite. Aaah yes. Except, again, maybe you can't remember, but way back in the very beginning, the heavy weight greco-roman wrestlers absolutely beat the living crap out of everyone, in a virtual, horrendous bloodbath. The only way that they could stop that horror, to stop Mark Kerr, was to totally change the rules, and totally take away his weapons. Similar to what they had to do to Wilt Chamberlain in basketball. So, they outlawed kneeing to the head on the ground, headbutting, and striking the back of the head. There was no one he couldn't put on the floor in 2 seconds flat and quickly splatter and knock out until they outlawed his main weapons.

I trained an Iranian Olympic silver medalist wrestler who was trying to live here, and who ended up in Port Lincoln for a while. He was a machine, but a machine with back issues and shoulder issues. I showed him things I have raised on here to address those issues and he loved them. Then that turned into him requesting strength and fitness sessions. He was awesome to train, because he valued as much real strength and structural balance as possible, and because he totally understood the difference between raw strength, and skill enhanced strength.

Again in the real world, when sweeping away the abundance of myths, here's reality. Greco-Roman wrestling has an unsurpassed mastery of applied leverage combined with all important total athleticism and strength.

Total domination.

Like here, when Kerr competed against top BJJ exponents under their rules, and everyone assumed that he would be dominated. The exact opposite happened. His size and strength and superior wrestling ability reduced his BJJ opponents to groveling, to constantly escape, and he won many of that style of tournaments. Renowned BJJ experts posed no attacking threat whatsoever to him, both skill and fitness wise, and were totally defensive, forced to think of only escaping the area or constantly reset. On the other hand it is easy to see that Kerr in the side mount could have whenever he felt like it, dropped one of his infamous knees, top mount, head butt or elbow, same with taking their backs, and the brutal ending would have been just like it relentlessly was before they outlawed him doing it.

So, yes its awesome and rewarding to feel passion for activities, and recognize that it is possible for all. And awesome to being open to trying new things. And regarding health and fitness, absolutely invaluable to recognize myths, and embrace reality.

Todd Harison's picture
Todd Harison's picture
Todd Harison commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 6:42pm

Michael Tell me more about which Greco Roman wrestlers are beating BJJ Guys at the highest level in competition post mark Kerr....
You mentioned Royce getting busted for roids, how about mark Kerr? Have you seen the smashing machine?
I think most people recognise that both sports complement each other
Did U see Kerr vs vovachanchyn at pride 7? Kerr was finished with knees to the head from north....selective memory much mate?

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 5:19pm

That about sums it up.

Groper's picture
Groper's picture
Groper commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 4:15pm

Best thing I ever did for my kids was enrolling them into Budo JJ, which is a Japanese style that incorporates striking. Three years later and I can see the benefits flowing through into all aspects of life. The key is the instructor and the students learning control. No ego permitted on the floor, this is when injuries occur. Too many haters around and I find peace of mind knowing my kids can defend themselves. Note, fighting is the last tool available when it comes to self defence. Kids are also part of a community of various ages, schools, etc that have each others back.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 4:14pm

Jeez you're all over the place there Mick, what's your point?

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 4:16pm

Done a few different arts over the years , never seen any through though .Kudos to those that do .Apparently I lack discipline.

Michael Bourne's picture
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Michael Bourne commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 4:59pm

You mean what's the point of you and others raising this sort of stuff Andrew?

'One of my coaches got hassled by a couple of bouncers down in Manly a few years ago.
Flogged both of them.
Pedro's about 5'9", about 70kg.
The shit's highly efficient, though I'm sure the Brazilian street fighter mentality didn't go astray.'

Exactly, I found it very strange, but predictable. As I said, there's always those that just love to raise it. It never takes long, although its totally irrelevant. On top of that, especially when you realize that the reality is BJJ has to have weight classes. And steroid use to build strength and recovery.

Also, as you and others just had to raise the fighting thing, again, in the real world, the GOAT is a wrestler.

“I did talk to Khabib,” White said at the evening’s post-fight presser. “He said to me, ‘Dana, be honest with yourself. I’m so many levels above these guys. I beat these guys.’

As I said, I'm extremely interested because of my fitness background, where leverage, momentum, skill, injuries, imbalances are real issues, that are mostly misunderstood when it comes to getting training results. Wrestlers don't fear strength and size as hinderances to performance and injury prevention, like is a popular misconception in the fitness world, and understand leverage and momentum and skill re performance much better than most.

If you can 'grapple' with that, Andrew, the rest is pretty self explanatory.

'One of my coaches got hassled by a couple of bouncers down in Manly a few years ago.
Flogged both of them.
Pedro's about 5'9", about 70kg.
The shit's highly efficient, though I'm sure the Brazilian street fighter mentality didn't go astray.'

Todd Harison's picture
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Todd Harison commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:58am

Michael Bourne hijacking this thread from back in 2001

juegasiempre's picture
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juegasiempre commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 5:36pm

I'd take those chokes over the vicious beat downs he deals out!!

You could see in his last fight, his opponent was thanking all the gods he submitted him early instead of raining down violence on his head for a couple more rounds!

The only BJJ dude that's scary is the one that takes roids and is banned from fighting because he snaps legs even when his opponent taps.

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 5:06pm

khabib definitely is the goat.

"I'm gunna maul him. I'm gunna smash him and make him tired"

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 5:32pm

Seems like you've got a stutter there Mick.

So anyway, between two evenly matched practitioners, strength and weight will quite likely determine the winner but the point is, it's a highly effective martial art - a trained jiu jitsu exponent or wrestler with even a modicum of strength will flog an untrained person.

The reason why wrestlers such as Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn didn't win the first UFCs was because despite having good takedowns, the didn't know how to submit on the ground.

And also your man Mark ("Steroids") Kerr didn't compete in the UFC till the 14th UFC.

Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 8:26pm

'Wait Michael Bourne,
wrestling doesn't have weight classes?'

Finally! Thank God! Yeeeeeessss!!! Exactly, see, nothing to be afraid of or resent, or choke on, but yes finally you've got it! Despite the myths, despite it being so difficult for some to accept, the added size and strength is a very, real advantage.

Finally, even Andrew, although whilst still, nearly choking himself to death trying to, dare I say it, 'stutter' out the following:

'So anyway, between two evenly matched practitioners, strength and weight will quite likely determine the winner'

But... no Andrew, even though you can't bear, nor bare it, and are still obviously grappling with reality, trying to find an angle, not 'quite likely determine', but will 'determine'. Hence the BJJ weight classes and, I quote, 'to make matches fairer and more exciting'... for you Andrew.

https://www.bjjsuccess.com/brazilian-jiu-jitsu-weight-classes/#:~:text=Y...

So again, why even raise, although very predictably raise, and others 'seen' it too:

'One of my coaches got hassled by a couple of bouncers down in Manly a few years ago.
Flogged both of them.
Pedro's about 5'9", about 70kg.
The shit's highly efficient, though I'm sure the Brazilian street fighter mentality didn't go astray.'

Yeh, Kerr took a truck load of drugs too, as I said, and as you now suddenly highlight... 'anyway', the added muscle and size is a genuine, real world advantage.

And here's what Khabib said about the guy below.

Александр Карелин. Greatest Greco-Roman wrestler of all time. karelin.aleksandr #Legend

From a purely fitness and strength point of view greco-roman wrestling is extremely interesting.

Again... Andrew please stop projecting, and grappling with, and trying to maim and flog yourself... and reality. I said:

Someone mentioned the beginning of Mixed Martial Arts, UFC, and, yes it always comes up in the field, some 'seen' shite, 'seen' sensei's maiming and smashing shite. Aaah yes. Except, again, maybe you can't remember, but way back in the very beginning, the heavy weight greco-roman wrestlers absolutely beat the living crap out of everyone, in a virtual, horrendous bloodbath. The only way that they could stop that horror, to stop Mark Kerr, was to totally change the rules, and totally take away his weapons. Similar to what they had to do to Wilt Chamberlain in basketball. So, they outlawed kneeing to the head on the ground, headbutting, and striking the back of the head. There was no one he couldn't put on the floor in 2 seconds flat and quickly splatter and knock out until they outlawed his main weapons.'

You obviously forgot, but again, as I said, the beginning of MMA was way before UFC, and totally affected the rules of UFC when it formed.

Again, keeping in the real spirit of the article, and ignoring the irrelevant, 'maiming', 'flogging', 'street fightin'' soul bro's, one of the greatest Australians of all time, Cathy Freeman, totally epitomizes the article's message. And fittingly, on 'Australia day'... (when she's not busy sorting out scummo)... again...

'“I feel like I’m being protected. My ancestors were the first people to walk on this land. It’s a really powerful force. Those other girls were always going to have to come up against my ancestors.'

“I’m feeling good. I’m feeling quiet. I’m feeling silent. I’m feeling strong. I’m feeling sharp. I’m not having a lot of contact on the ground. My body is feeling amazing. I’m cruising. I’m feeling light. I’m feeling fantastic. I can feel the sunshine out of my chest. The movement, the sprinting, and just that sense of flight – nothing else matters in those moments. They call it time. It just feels like a whole series of being in the moment. It’s like sheer bliss.”

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 9:06pm

Ha ha, you win Mick.

Today's Gish Gallop award is all yours, I expect you can feel the sunshine coming out of somewhere.

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 9:09pm

Why do you repeat yourself constantly Michael?

Michael Bourne's picture
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Michael Bourne commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 10:03pm

Where have I heard that before... 'ang on... I gort a andrewm feelin'...

Well for one, I'm extremely passionate about health and fitness, in a professional context also rippling. Repetition, persistence, patience is a powerful tool, I mean look, here you are, rivetted!!! Again!!!

And, because rippling, now, thank God, thank goodness, thank... 'Anyway', after years of grapplin' and floggin with reality', Andrew and bro's finally, at last, miraculously came to grips with, and 'seen' the total irrelevance of:

'One of my coaches got hassled by a couple of bouncers down in Manly a few years ago.
Flogged both of them.
Pedro's about 5'9", about 70kg.
The shit's highly efficient, though I'm sure the Brazilian street fighter mentality didn't go astray.'

And finally, although screaming and kicking to the end, embraced the stark reality... well, almost...

'So anyway, between two evenly matched practitioners, strength and weight will quite likely determine the winner'

Shite... 'ang on... unless... unless... unless the gist of the article was:

'One of my coaches got hassled by a couple of bouncers down in Manly a few years ago.
Flogged both of them.
Pedro's about 5'9", about 70kg.
The shit's highly efficient, though I'm sure the Brazilian street fighter mentality didn't go astray.'

aka, 'ed punchin', street fightin', maimin', flogging, chokin' everyone and shite...

Oh no... was that the gist of the article? Yipes... goodness me...

Michael Bourne's picture
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Michael Bourne commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 10:08pm

Anyway, I'm off to do a workout... again... and again... and again...

.cylinders's picture
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.cylinders commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 6:17am

Mr Bourne,

Have you paused to consider the notion of contemporary psychology which suggests that it is almost always true of the things which annoy and affront us about others that they are merely the traits we reject in ourselves being reflected back at us? The BJJ proponents who preceded me in this conversation, whilst talking story in the manner of myth and legend, seemed to miss the point of the article which wonderfully and succinctly described one man's reflections about his journey into something other than wave riding. Those unsolicited tales may be the source of such a fearsome irritation for you simply because at a subconscious level you loathe your own propensity for a long-winded and self indulgent yarn which ultimately adds nothing to the crux of a conversation. Think of a middle aged man who is susceptible to directing road rage at the other motorists unlucky enough to temporarily occupy the area directly in front of his vehicle, and then consider the high likelihood that he himself has great difficulty in locating his indicator stalk or turning his neck to observe a blind spot while driving along the expressways.

To illustrate my point further I will use the topical example of how your own egotistical and extraneously punctuated statements annoy and affront myself. This is due in large part to the fact that my own jonesing for making effete and unnecessarily sesquipedalian posts on SN is something I wish I could forsake in favour of the straightforward existence of one who merely observes the motto "to live and let live". I suppose I long for the simple life of a digital bird watcher of sorts, since getting involved ruffles my own feathers and yet, I can't help it in the same way you can't seem to avoid repeating yourself.

I am tempted to believe the repetition is a predisposition of yours that has been influenced by many years of strength and conditioning. Similar to a barbell, if you hoist a statement above the heads of others enough times, you seem inclined to presume the statement will gather that same powerful and balanced appeal you treasured so much in the Iranian grappler.

Unfortunately for everyone who is unlucky enough to stumble across my verbose and inconsequential pisstakes, I have already deserted two addictions this year, and I am having too much fun visualising the veins on either side of your well proportioned and supremely uniform head pulsating with increasing frequency as you near the end of my absurdly confrontational, unproductive and completely aimless memo.

Sincerely yours,

Mr Cylinders

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 6:35am

Ha!

batfink's picture
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batfink commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 8:54am

Kudos .mcylinders.

Like finding the next prime number, there are increasing periods of time between me finding a new word I have never come across before.

Sesquipedalian is my latest new word.

You’re quite the prestidigitator.

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 10:18pm

Well, that was underwhelming.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Tuesday, 26 Jan 2021 at 10:43pm

Haha, The Thread Killer strikes again!

Gold.

Cos, you know, he met a wrestler once.

frog's picture
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frog commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 7:23am

"it’s manipulation of the spine. Like, if you move your opponent’s head a fraction to the left or the right, they lose all power in their base structure – rendering their movements ineffective." - sounds excellent fun and great for your neck??!! That stuff has short and long term consequences.

Frogg

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 7:29am

Been a great discussion on this topic. I've been interested in learning Jiu Jitsu (or somehting similar) to assist fitness etc, but based on the injury report cards above, I think I'll aim for something else. Sounds like I probably don't have enough spare time to properly commit anyway.

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 9:14am

Having observed a keen young BJ guy close up for a few years (family friend) I saw the following.
It was a major time commitment - obsession - cause otherwise unless you improve you just get beat up / taken down endlessly and feel like a loser. Sessions were often sort of win / lose propositions - unlike a casual fun surf. He spent all his spare time looking at BJ videos (even at social events) and trained / rolled multiple times a week - not a balanced life and annoyed those around him. As his peer group improved he had to as well otherwise he felt like a loser - a treadmill of work just to stay in the game.

Injuries just kept happening: a significant disc bulge he will live with his whole life, tendon snapped in ankle that cannot be repaired - not an essential one - but now a weakness there. A wrist injury I think as well. Spent hours a week doing specific core exercises to protect his disc bulge to stay pain free.

To top it off, he caught some weird nasty herpes virus off a Russian guy who had spots all over his body that spread all over his body and became infected with bacteria as well. They looked freaky, lasted weeks and left some scars (eeek). He had to sleep alone and not touch anyone. That bug might come back if he gets run down - herpes: the gift for life. He is out there rolling with guys (although it is gone now?) - so watch out!!!

Weeks off work for each of these things. Tinea is super common with all those sweaty bodies and mats.

His heroes had multiple disc bulges by the time they were 40.

Give me clean soft aqua blue ocean water any day.

Frogg

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 8:54am

Sounds like a trip to a gay bath house gone very wrong.

Gra Murdoch's picture
Gra Murdoch's picture
Gra Murdoch commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 9:42am

...or far too well.

andy-mac's picture
andy-mac's picture
andy-mac commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 1:44pm

Ring worm is a common occurrence!

Botak

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 7:59am

sounds great, where do I sign?

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 8:45am

That sounds horrendous hey

derra83's picture
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derra83 commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 9:54am

70+ comments and not one mention of Ray's soul arch!

What the fuck is wrong with you people??

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 10:08am

Oi! Look above.

Michael Bourne's picture
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Michael Bourne commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 11:35am

.cylinders... well... Mr.cylinders...

Get some sleep mate, yeh, you too footy, ya been 'seen' foamin'' about the 'seen' maimin an 'andrew's floggins an 'ed bashing from the get go... get some sleep now lads...

So, yes, the BJJ injury thing is real. I've rehabbed plenty of guys including through work cover as well. So, if you can see past the little things, if BJJ is your passion, you would seriously think what injuries are most common, and do what you could to address that.

Again, if you can see past the irrelevant shite, you'll notice that maximum strength, and balanced muscle is a bonus, insurance if you like.

I picked the videos carefully. Gracie got destroyed by Henderson. Another Gracie got destroyed by Hughes. But, he wanted to keep fighting, the 'Gracie name and and school and tradition' and all that. So he juiced even more. To get bigger and stronger for one, but mainly that fucking destroyed arm. That should have been given more time and rehabbing.

Because of my fitness background and profession, 50 odd years of it, I think how to prevent injury as the first prerequisite. So greco-roman wrestlers are really interesting. Frog mentioned necks. And spines. Look at their necks. Look at their overall development. And yes, they get hurt too. Khabib and most, call Karelin the best ever. 889 bouts, not maimin' 'overwhelmingly manly bouncers', not street fightin' floggin' just any blokes, but against the best heavy weights on the planet. Does he look slow, uncoordinated, prone to injury, inflexible, unskilled. Nah, he looks like, and was a super durable, high performance, explosive machine. The obvious muscle was a bonus, not hindrance. Lose that old school drivel. It will hold you back.

I've rehabbed a zillion surfers. I get calls from them every week. Backs, necks, knees, shoulders, ankles, hands. When guys that should be in their prime, can't do basic shit, that housewives can do easily because their grip fucks up, they can either take that in a good or bad way. Do something about it, or deny it. The smart ones address it. There's a lot to learn from a guy like Karelin.

And Kerr. Look at the vids. He was in total control of a situation that the totally wrong old school stereotype would paint him being all wrong for. They held his hand up, against those renowned BJJ guns, because he smashed the stereotype.

I always raise the roid thing because its real. Its not a very popular topic in gyms, the juicers hate you for it. But PEDS use is worse than ever, kids can get shit with ease. I get horrified parents asking me what x is that they catch their kids with. It pisses me off, because we learn much more about the body without it. And combined with the huge MMA surge, including the BJJ thing, and the 'seen' maimin's, 'ed bashins', bouncer floggin', street fightin', well, the kids...

I train bouncers too. Who'd be a fuckin 'bouncer'... in covid world too. Fighting has nothing to do with it. Security tickets, and out they go, girls and boys, into a manly world of... 'I'm innacent aaayyee... 'an I don't use no juice... 'an I could flog ya if I wanted ta but, even maim ya too aaaaayyee... but... dont ya make me grapple ya now...'

Passions are great. So is honestly assessing what the result is on your health and well being, your fitness, and so addressing that to enable your passion. For instance, if someone says, I wanna box to get fit, the truth is, bad idea for that goal, go and check out old boxers. Especially old school boxers. Forget the brain damage, its all the other shit. But it can be counter balanced. If you aren't afraid of a bit of strength and muscle.

'sounds great, where do I sign?'

If they aren't overwhelmed, young andrew and rippling are taking signatures down at the manly pub, well, any manly pub...

And footy's had some swillnut club shirts printed up...

'I might be smaller than ya average koo... but don't worry, I promise I won't maim or flog ya... but ya never know aaayyeee... its 2021 after all but!!!

.cylinders's picture
.cylinders's picture
.cylinders commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 7:26pm

My favourite part was when you said my name twice and ignored everything I said.

Trentslatterphoto's picture
Trentslatterphoto's picture
Trentslatterphoto commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 1:15pm

on yah ray, great guy whos has many talents

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 1:54pm

Of course BJJ has injury risks, so does wrestling, sambo and whatever else you want to name.
What's your point?

"Muscle is a help not a hinderance to performance."
Sounds reasonable.

"Necks are prone to injury in BJJ."
Couldn't agree more, I think necks, shoulders and knees are the prime areas for long-term damage.

So as a pro Mick, what specifics do you recommend for strengthening necks?
When you're getting stacked by 120kg no-fat beasts, how do you avoid issues with discs in your neck?

bbbird's picture
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bbbird commented Wednesday, 27 Jan 2021 at 8:18pm

bbbird

batfink's picture
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batfink commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:12am

Hilarious tangential thread.

I have Ray Collins pictures book which I thumb through regularly. He’s clearly a special dude, and that body surfing wave, wow.

Yeah, I’m interested Gra, in whatever you put out. Pretty much everything fascinates me, particularly humans, and you write as the interested observer.

Laurie Towner and fishing? Sure, any stories from or about Laurie.

As for BJJ, not for me thanks. Everything at my age is about strengthening, flexibility and avoiding injury, so that last one excludes it. But I’m all for any passionate pursuit, and am aware that most people really don’t know much about their own bodies, how flexible they are, what movements the body is made for and which should be avoided.

Plus anything that extends your proprioception must be good.

Used to subscribe to a philosophy quarterly and one article talked about the 7 types of intelligence that science has identified, and proprioception is one of them.

For those too lazy to look it up, it’s the perception and awareness of the position and movement of the body. That extends to our brain's ability to pick up a tool or a piece of sports equipment, or drive a car, and your brain being able to extend the reach of its proprioception to include that thing. It’s an amazing quality.

Like a surfboard, perhaps.

Huggy's picture
Huggy's picture
Huggy commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 9:34am

Great article - I like the premise that training martial arts can help improve both the mind and body.
I’ve fought in contact Taekwondo competition for over 30 years and find a similar mindset can be helpful at certain times when surfing, and the strength and flexibility definitely is a plus.
For this late starter Surfing is the new hobby creating “Passion Conflict” with a lifetime of martial arts practice!
Good Luck with the rehab Ray, I’m sure your BJJ training will help underpin recovery.

Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:12am

I finished training people at around 8pm last night Andrew. I started this answer to you, have a quick break now to finish this up.

Really? You didn't get the point? Come on. Then, seriously, look harder and listen more. Actually stop mentally projecting about shit you clearly don't understand, and just try taking things in. What I said is pretty basic and clear. And that's coming from someone who is booked out, has been for years, with a zero advertising budget, in an industry where getting information across is key, is paramount, in a place where consistent, high paying clients are rare and like gold, in an industry where the drop out rate is a few months. In my mid sixties. I know when someone is actually listening or not, and I really couldn't give a shit if you choose not to, its totally your loss.

I did Personal Training in your area, and have heaps of ludicrously, deluxe in fact letters of thanks from there. You can have a swillnut sulkathon about that, or take advantage of it, who cares and what difference does it make. But I'm not going to pander to fucking swillnuts. I resurrected a guy in Angourie who was totally stuffed, absolutely fucked, couldn't work, surf, or do any fucking thing, spending a fortune on physio's, specialists, for ages, you name it. Completely fucked back. Now? You wouldn't even know he was injured. Again, be an all time swillnutting idiot, and see that as bragging, as not being serenely humble, God loving all ozzie enough, or take advantage. Who gives a shit

'Aaaaww, aaaawww you do or ya woodn't even...'

'"Muscle is a help not a hinderance to performance."
Sounds reasonable.'

HAHAHAHAHAHA, FFS, please, be fucking reasonable. Reason fool!!!!

FFS, I mean seriously, FFS... you obviously didn't watch the videos at all. I actually mean open your eyes and mind and watch them. Learn something. Professional athletes get busted all the time for steroid use and spend a fortune on gyms... 'Aaaaaw, aaaawww... coz we don't want no stinkedy muscals aaayyee...' HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Swillnuts. You gotta luv em!!! Stomp into the BJJ hallowed halls then, and scream at them to ditch weight classes because its not fair protecting all the more heavily muscled guys like they are!!! Threaten to maim and flog them even!!! Seriously. FFS.

Not too long ago a couple of AFL teams played in Port Lincoln. I was hired to build and manage the gym that they wanted to use the morning after the game. All the injured guys came in early, and I was asked to let them in and show them around. I actually wanted to sleep in. One 'superstar' obviously had fucked shoulders, and had just had his 'shots'. I approached him, started a conversation, and he and the clipboard brigade with him gave a bit of be nice to the bumpkin banter, and obligatory smirks, and because of his shoulders, he reckoned he was just working his abs. My grom was in doing his workout, a fucking beast of an athlete, and qualified. The kid in this vid. I helped a coupla of guys on here with this, and they realise just how perfect he does this, and how hard it is to replicate. He can do that with a 10kg weight added to each leg, using boots. Deluxe, balanced development.

I said something like, 'hey grom, check this hilarious gym fails shit, if you wanted to pick the worst possible thing for those fucked up shoulders, what would you pick?' 'That dad.' 'HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAARRRRRR, WTF, why the fuck are you doing that, isn't it killing your fucking already fucked shoulders?' 'Oh yeh, but everything does at this point in my career...' 'Bullshit, you just don't know what to do.' Clipboard gives a bit of a fucking bristle up, but star is curious, we both make him look like a squirt, and he's fucking sick of being sore. 'Come on, come over here, we'll hit your abs properly, decompress your spine at the same time, and I'll teach you about your fucked shoulder situation, because honestly, it, the shocking imbalance is pretty fucking obvious. To cut a long story short, he was fucking dumbfounded, and clip board bolted away as he asked him, 'why don't we do any of this stuff.' And no, not the exercise in the vid. He had no rotator cuff, no rear delt. No rear period. No fucking idea. Real imbalance, and bad, ingrained patterns. Gave him the full session then, and he saw it crystal clear. I ended the session with some 'intensity' talk, he was a gun toter, another one, so proud of his guns, so I knew he'd jump in. I wanted him to see how hard it is possible to train, and to really get out of his comfort zone. Fucking pretty weak. Pretty soft. Bailed half way through the set, sweating like a pig, with half the weight he was blathering that he could use, and his triceps squealing. Just half a fucking set. And shockingly to him, no shoulder pain that he normally felt, when he was then actually doing the exercise properly. 'Fucking hell mate, look I'm around 60 and if that was all I could do I'd just chuck meself off the end of the fucking jetty and be done with it.' He had a good sense of humour, and no choice but to accept reality. And I'll back that with absolutely anyone that sets foot in my gym. Not the way to treat most clients, but sometimes, its necessary for bumpkins to sink the point home. Again, who cares, you can take advantage of that, or swillnut tanty and stutter about whatever you think I am. I don't fucking care, I have a target which is me retired, except for surfing my brains out, and its close enough to savour. Not an injury on me. Prisfuckingtine.

That wrestler I mentioned Andrew. Silver medalist. Totally different ball game. Especially to you too. So completely confident, so, so completely open. We talked all about necks too. Obviously skill is a huge factor, like it is in all sports. He gave such awesome displays of deflecting, of minimizing force, breaking falls etc, when he had to. You should be learning all that. Like boxers taking sting off opponents punches. Skill is huge. Some have no skill. But then, so equally important is the tool, the instrument, the structure of the neck, etc. And all that its connected to.

Who is faster, sprinter, or marathon runner? Who explodes, who reacts, accelerates, fires cells quicker. Sends signals quicker. Nervous system training. A sprinters neck... or a... Muscle. Sprinter. Reaction time, protection, flexibility. ROM. Karelin.

Get it? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, fucking swillnuts. 'Please no more muscle, I don't wanna be slow! I'll be too heavy for me bike!!! Its not functional!!! I'll have no instant response and acceleration. Plus I'll gas out like Kerr did in them BJJ clips when he won.' 'Nnaaarr, naaar he didn't, they lift ya arm when ya lose aaaayye... eee lorst aaayyyeee... as for that other big 887 match loser...' HAHAHAHAHAHA, fucking 'ell, swillnuts!!! I luv em!!! 'Anyway, we're claimin' them wrestlers for us!!!'

Muscle, how to build optimum, balanced muscle, and maximum tendon and ligament strength. Without getting injured. Rule 1. Don't get injured. Learn that. Now you get it? Nup.

Neck. Function, ROM. Decompression. Perfect skill. Tool up. Be a beast. Of course I know how Andrew. That wrestler showed me all sorts of his bridging, pulls, shrugs. Deluxe. Then I showed him how do the same things, but tweaked, improved, so with minimal chance of injury. And different things to do the same thing with even less chance of injury. He had to use that whenever he could, to minimise injury when strengthening, but then take the risks with the strongest, most optimal tool possible, when perfecting skill for contests and competing. And I taught him about decompression.

I told you in the last fitness thread that I won't be giving specific exercise advice on here anymore. Finished that, been there done that. Nup. Not happening. But I'll chuck you a scrap or two. Many years ago, Nautilus was involved in a huge Westpoint Study. I wrote to Peterson, and he sent me copies of the whole thing, tons and tons of notes, experiments, all this extra info, and so did Jones. And others. For free.

https://fliphtml5.com/ljay/wssr/basic

What a buzz. They did all this extra stuff with a guy named Dick Butkus.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Dick-Butkus

Dick Butkus, byname of Richard Marvin Butkus, (born December 9, 1942, Chicago, Illinois, U.S.), American professional gridiron football player who, as middle linebacker for the Chicago Bears of the National Football League (NFL), was the dominant defensive player of his era. He was exceptionally large for a linebacker playing in the 1960s (6 feet 3 inches [1.9 metres] and 245 pounds [111 kg]) and had a reputation for relentless pursuit and ferocious tackling.

http://investors.nautilusinc.com/news-releases/news-release-details/naut...

You get it?

'was the dominant defensive player of his era. He was exceptionally large for a linebacker playing in the 1960s (6 feet 3 inches [1.9 metres] and 245 pounds [111 kg]) and had a reputation for relentless pursuit and ferocious tackling.'

Tackling. Necks. NFL. Biggest hits you'll ever see. Helmets. Spearing. Not supposed to do it. You get it? Necks. And the neckbone attaches to the... Nautilus back then made to this day, the best, most comprehensive neck training equipment I have ever seen. Every angle and function covered. Insane. And I scour the planet passionately. Nothing matches it. So, what if you can't get your hands on that. You mimic it. I can mimic it perfectly. Because I know the whole story behind it, the reasoning, to the nth detail, all those years ago. I soaked the whole thing up like a sponge. For fucking free. Awesome men, helping me out, just an eager, obviously genuine, passionate young guy. Hundreds of thousands of workouts ago. Yeh, repetition.

So, I'll leave you in the mighty hands of the likes of dotty fucking peanut cyclinders and the rest of the blathering swillnuts Andrew. Sweet dreams son.

Good video bbbird.

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:23am

“ I don't fucking care, I have a target which is me retired, except for surfing my brains out, and its close enough to savour. Not an injury on me. Prisfuckingtine.”

I reckon your brains pulled a muscle, clean off the bone.

But seriously it’s good to see you back big boi

shortenism's picture
shortenism's picture
shortenism commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 11:39am

Hey ben, a good one to look into is Aikido. Its foundation is in body movement and similar to BJJ using opponents action to counter but not as grapply. I've been doing it for 20+ years, never had an injury really (a couple of minor strains). But yes as mentioned above you want a good leader and no ego in the room. The benefits to posture, aerobic fitness, movement/flow, awareness are a game changer at any age. If a BJJ guy got his hands on ya, he'd probably have ya for breakfast once you are down but putting the combative stuff to one side if you are looking for a mentally invigorating and challenging side activity to surfing that will only benefit, def worth a look. Its been fascinating watching the BJJ movement. Its been all the rage for a while and from what I hear perhaps a bit more social than some of the traditional Asian arts training regimes, which along with the big screen has helped its recent popularity.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 12:24pm

Must be something to BJJ, even Bernie's been practicing his armbars.

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 1:22pm

Mr Bourne

Reading closely your post, I have gleaned a useful nugget - I think my rear deltoids are weak and my shoulders are unbalanced. That fits with some issues I have.

Thank you.

Frog

Frogg

Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne's picture
Michael Bourne commented Thursday, 28 Jan 2021 at 11:43pm

Gidday Frog, no sweat. In our culture shoulder issues are really common, we tend to do far too much, what is called internal rotation, and our shoulders end up permanently rotated inward. Here's a quick vid explaining internal, external rotation.

All of the muscles that do that, get way too out of balance and strong, as does the mental pattern associated. We get way too strong that way, and way too weak at externally rotating, so that when we do things associated with external rotation, powerful things like rowing, pulling style movements (paddling), our shoulder head stays forward, causing shoulder joint distortion, and all sorts of 'pinching' occurs. This often involves the upper bicep tendon.

Our shoulder blades, and rotator cuff are supposed to move in conjunction with our pulling muscles, which when in balance, are actually meant to be stronger than our pulling muscles. Look at an anatomy diagram. The pulling muscles are our biggest, strongest muscle mass in the upper body. The hand is a good give away. Look at hands and feet. Feet work good even in boots and shoes, they are mainly for pushing. Hands can push too, but are primarily a gripping tool. They are rendered pretty useless if boots, shoes were worn. They are primarily a pulling machine. Except, our whole life in our culture emphasizes pushing style, arms out in front movements. The pattern gets chronically reinforced. Oldies, and these day grommets, become hunch backs. Our culture exasperates the situation even more. Slouching, slumping is cool. Groovers. Humble, good 'ol ozzie groovers, great blokes, top blokes slouch. Only fuckwits and cockheads stand with pronounced shoulders rotated externally back, which means simultaneously head and neck back, chest up and elevated, arse sticking out. 'Oi, 'ave are go at vat faaaarkwit aaayyeee maaaayytee, eeze gort 'elphy shouldas and shite, 'an wot a faaarkin' smart arze faaark 'ed!!!' Ya gotta love it! Here's some good info and advice. This guy makes good videos. However, I would emphasize, slow down the lowering (4-5secs), negative portions of all the movements he shows in his vids, for various reasons, one being strongly ingraining new patterns (which also ties into batfink's great post).

I've said this before, but everyone should do this, to develop and train rotator cuff movement, and to create a new pattern of external rotation. Then, any time you do any type of pulling movement (including setting up for presses), this movement must work simultaneously when pulling, or pushing out of a low position, ie, pushups base. It can be very difficult to just get in the position for a lot of people, but persist. Repetition. A lot of people have to use no band at all at first. When you can do 20, really strictly and comfortably, with no band, don't use the type of band he is using, use these, starting with the lightest, then using heavier as you progress. And not too much tension, even a bit loose in the starting position. With a bit of thought, you'll figure out how to wrap the band ends around your hand, incorporating thumb to lock the band in place, and make sure palms are facing you when commencing. You need long enough bands to get a few wraps around your hand. These are perfect. Watch the video carefully, its hilarious what people can, and often do turn this movement into. Start even just doing a few a day, gradually build up to 20. Repetition. Persist. Ingrain.

https://www.kmart.com.au/product/latex-band-light---pink/2335309

https://www.kmart.com.au/product/latex-band-medium---green/2318329

https://www.kmart.com.au/product/latex-band-heavy---grey/2320804

Combine that with these, and it will address your shoulder issues Frog. Emphasis that external rotation, and again, 4- 5 secs lowering. When you can do 12 -15 reps for 3 sets comfortably, really strictly, at whatever level suits to start (start easier, not too hard), increase the resistance slightly by moving feet slightly forward. If you feel pinching, I'll guarantee that your shoulders are internally rotated, concentrate, or reduce hardness so that you can do it properly.

Worth learning a bit about this, it will give you an idea where your focus and thinking should be when doing the above rotator cuff and rowing exercises. Also as a good rule of thumb, do around 2 - 3 times the amount of pulling work to pushing.

Great points batfink, I see unbelievable examples of people totally out of touch with how their bodies work, totally unable to move or put their body where I want them to, and with completely false perceptions of what their bodies are actually doing, and where they are in space. Its an ever growing epidemic in our 'advanced' culture.

I know that I haven't told you all what colour fins to use, or what way the wind is blowing, or what the tide is doing, or where and what time, and why you should surf, or how to stop the mals and WSL from ruining your lives, or where indo is, (no its not presently near Dandenong) but I hope that this helps, and...

frog's picture
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frog commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 8:20am

Mr Bourne. Excellent information. Thanks. My upper biceps tendon has been causing issues as you predicted - clicking and catching. I had looked into why but the info never pinned it down like you have - typically searches give a list of general causes and multiple solutions making it hard to focus on a specific remedy.

Frogg

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frog's picture
frog commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 8:37am

For other surfers reading this - shoulders are your locomotion source and popup key. Surfing gives them a major workout over your lifetime. You are highly likely to get shoulder issues over time. Some are wear and tear but others are preventable and fixable. I have had frozen shoulder a few times and painful tendon clicks here and there from 50 onwards. I recommend you read Michael Bourne's post above very closely.

It is not new information to me but shoulders are complicated and you can get lost in the multiple muscles, tendons, rotator cuff physiology and many causes and solutions presented on the internet and not know where to focus.

Frogg

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Michael Bourne commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 2:20pm

The main thing is overcoming long term, ingrained patterns. The majority of our culture is chronically internally rotated. And modern life makes it worse and worse. Computers, phones, driving, and lots of jobs all involve relentless actions with arms in front, shoulders rotated forward. The pattern becomes totally unconscious, totally programmed, so that when people do do pulling style activities, i.e. paddling, the shoulders are forward, and distorted. Compounding, making it worse, through 'pinching', impingement, which leads to inflammation, radiating pain, more inflammation. The only solution is to create that new externally rotated pattern, which is why you must do exercises/movements daily, to ingrain them as unconscious, as well as developing structure. Also be aware what your shoulders and rotator cuff are doing during the day, say if at the computer 24/7, or on the phone for ever, driving a lot, working at benches, sinks, slouching, excitedly, wisely, brilliantly attacking the Gudangs, and Bintangs, etc, etc, and then consciously put them in external rotation. With enough repetition and effort that position will become unconscious too, and automatically take over when paddling etc. Things will also get a chance to heal.

I actually don't like doing all this online, distance exercise stuff, it can be made much clearer in person, crystal clear, and everyone is different. Plus often working on one issue, especially these days, exposes another weakness, and imbalance. But the above info is a pretty all round, safe guide.

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freeride76 commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 3:51pm

"excitedly, wisely, brilliantly attacking the Gudangs, and Bintangs, etc, etc,"

hahahaha, read my mind.

appreciate those shoulder exercises, been doing them since the last time you posted.

shoulders feel pretty good.

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Michael Bourne commented Friday, 29 Jan 2021 at 4:24pm

Haha.

Stoked free.