More from the mind of Greg Webber

Stu Nettle
Swellnet Dispatch

Last week I received an intriguing message from Greg Webber: “Wanna see my latest inventions?”

I couldn’t not chuckle at a mind that never sits idle, that perpetually reaches out over the horizon mapping new ideas and sketching them into existence. What would it be this time? Optimised surfboard contours? Fins perhaps? I know his latest flex fin set up, manufactured by Greg Trotter at SOAR, is getting great reviews. Or would it be an auxiliary to his still unbuilt - though close apparently! - wave pool caper?

And note, it wasn’t one invention, but inventions - plural.

With these thoughts collecting steam I was prepared to be surprised by Greg’s inventions, though his answer still took me aback.

“Floating artificial reefs,” said Greg nonchanantly.

And I had the same reaction I imagine you’re having right now.

“Take a look at the artificial reef being built at Palm Beach right now,” said Greg when I called him. “What’s that going to cost?”

“$20 million dollars,” I replied. This figure I know because we ran an article about the reef on Swellnet a fortnight ago.

“And will it work as a surfing reef?”

“I’ve no idea,” I admitted. “I imagine even the engineers won't know until it’s built”

“Well,” asked Greg, “what if you could build 100 surfing reefs for the same price? Or even better, you could build one reef for a hundredth of that price?” Capital outlay has been the stumbling block for many proposed projects. When a skate park costs $200,000 but a surfing reef $20 million it's obvious which way councils will swing to keep kids happy.

Greg’s latest inventions are essentially two versions of a floating artificial reef; one that augments existing waves by creating wedges, and another by creating peeling lefts and rights. Both are V shapes and attach to the sea floor in one place only.

The wedge is called the ‘V-Wall’ and is, as the name implies, a large V with the walls made from hollow concrete and reinforced with I beams. It attaches to the seafloor via an anchor, which both allows the shape to move like a wind vane into the prevailing swell lines, and also allows the structure to be moved.

“We’re also researching the degree to which these things may be classed as a vessel,” said Greg. “Because it’s just like a barge, it can get towed around. It’s a not a structure per se, because nothing is touching the seabed except the anchor.”

When I put it to Greg that the structure would be vulnerable to huge forces in the ocean, he was, not surprisingly, way ahead of me. The arms of the V meet at the fulcrum which is hinged and can shut to reduce resistance, or the hollow arms can be filled with seawater to sink the structure if need be. The water would be pumped out later.

To describe its effect on swell, Greg uses Whale Beach Wedge as an example. “The rock face that creates the wedge is only 50 metres long, and it creates one of the best wedging waves in the world. This structure can be bigger than that, and it can be shaped to find the perfect wedging angle.”

“Also, the resistance isn’t as much as you might think, as the walls are angled into the oncoming waves. They’re not sitting square on.”

Greg’s second invention is a floating artificial reef called the ‘V-Reef’, which is again made from reinforced hollow concrete, again in a V shape that’s attached to the bottom at the fulcrum, and again swivels into the prevailing swell direction (and also up and down with the tide). Though this time the structure would be attached to the bottom by a pile driven into the seabed and the wave shape is promoted by the submerged part of the reef. The pictures on the website help make sense of it.

Greg and Dan Webber's V-Reef

The other inventions are a shark net and chop stopper, though they’re less exciting than the reef and wall. He’s taken out patents on each of them.

In this new project, called Webber Reefs, Greg has worked with his brother Dan Webber. It’s not part of Liquid Time, Greg’s wavepool company, but a seperate business.

I’ve no idea of the practicality of these ideas: Would they work? Who would pay for them? And how will they convince someone to put a foreign structure in the nearshore zone? I mention all this and more to Greg. He’s not the least perturbed, he and Dan have got ideas, they present a solution, one that’s drastically cheaper than the alternative, and they’re classic cases of blue sky thinking.

So now they're gonna toss their ideas up into the air and see who reaches out and catches them.

Check their website and see for yourself.

Postscript: As of right now, preliminary talks have already begun with the V-Wall in Western Australia.

Comments

annie boy's picture
annie boy's picture
annie boy commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 8:01pm

Please, Middleton/ goolwa. South oz!

Charlie Brown's picture
Charlie Brown's picture
Charlie Brown commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:48am

It'd have to sit a kilometre out to sea!

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:25pm

It’ll happen and way quicker than any wave pool since they’re so simple and way cheaper

dylza's picture
dylza's picture
dylza commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 9:39am

Hey Greg - Brilliant idea. With all the salmon farms here in Tassie surely the idea for one of these on South Arm - or a few would be welcomed. Past ideas have been shut down due to being permanent structures. More than not here its 1-3 ft swell lines and mostly closeouts! Cheers

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 9:44pm

Sounds like the ideal location!!

kym Polkinghorne's picture
kym Polkinghorne's picture
kym Polkinghorne commented Saturday, 13 Jul 2019 at 8:44pm

Great idea Greg, a few questions about it come to mind though. Im no wave scientist so these are just thoughts. Being a floating platform and the waves come straight from the deep it will be a very challenging pitching wave only suited for advanced surfers ? . If you look at it from the other way the easiest waves to surf come from gentle sloping beaches or reefs. Thats where the the bottom starts to stand the waves up a long way out and you can see them coming. the more gentle the slope the more gentle the wave ? most times ?. Where as waves coming from deep water and hitting a shallow reef quickly dont give you much warning and pitch steep and fast. So yeah great if your a pro but not so good for the average Joe ?

wiseautogas's picture
wiseautogas's picture
wiseautogas commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:38pm

Yes you could place at least 20 of these along that coast it would be epic

john wise

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 9:44pm

That's the plan.

dinnerdish's picture
dinnerdish's picture
dinnerdish commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 2:30pm

by gosh exactly what i'm thinking middleton so needs one

arohabro

teanorris's picture
teanorris's picture
teanorris commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 8:04pm

Legend

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 8:20pm

I have often thought of these type of options. They would need some weight though as, if not, once filled with water, they would have too much boyancy and would shift around in bigger swells.

Frogg

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:02am

At first thought yes, but read below or check the videos on the website

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 9:52pm

They will weigh about 150 tonnes but since they have a volume of about 75 cubic meters and concrete weighs about 2000kg/cubic meter, which is double that of water which 1000kg per cubic meter. So the the buoyancy voids need to lift 25% of the structure out of the water. So nomatter what the waves are doing this mass is significant in itself let alone the huge volume of water behind it. The inertia would be huge to try budge these things. And the waves are effectively being cut in half with energy sliding along each arm in a synchronised fashion since they can pivot and point exactly into the swell.

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 8:24pm

If the WSL or any other part of the surf industry really cared about growing the sport whilst keeping the average surfer happy they would invest in this type of technology.

Frogg

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:06am

Yeah just think of an event taking place at a famous surfing location but nearby there are ten of these things making 20 new breaks for the surfers that support that industry. Then many more surfers would be watching the contest overall since they can hang at the event site in the majority but then they can duck off for a quick surf between heats.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 8:28pm

totally agree frog

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:07am

Thanks Freeride.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 8:32pm

Go Greg Webber and Dan Webber.

More waves = more fun.

epictard's picture
epictard's picture
epictard commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 9:31pm

There are so many bays that get heaps of swell, that are not used for any commercial purpose, but have no really surfable waves, could be opened up with this technology.

These men are geniuses.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:18am

Thanks for that complement, but my god dan and I cop enough flack as it is without getting that term thrown at as. Sometimes you’ll get a funny ego leveling write-off like Ant Corrigan saying to me once “what are you Greg a fucken scientist!?” But at other times you can clearly tell the person is being bitter and jealous and that they have their own issues that probably stem from being ignored at kindergarten. And these types also think that creative people are all kind of naive and idealistic and so they can cut them down easily with some hard headed pragmatism and thereby elevate themselves. But some creative people also have high degrees of pragmatism like me, and I can’t stand the fuckwits who do this shit, since 95% of the creative people get their ideas shut down by you types. So I support all the crazy ideas that other people have and if they cannot be protected by a patent or the business model just doesn’t stack up then I politely explain why but totally encourage more free thinking.

epictard's picture
epictard's picture
epictard commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:53am

G'Day Greg,
I would love to see this get off the ground.
Has any study been put into how this will affect sand flow? Would the 'inside bay area' within the V build up a bank that would then be perfect if the reef was relocated?
This could open up more opportunity to go around creating banks and then moving on.

Edit: I see further down the thread that this has been covered.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:29pm

You were onto it. As sand builds up you can reposition to aim the reflected swells at the bulges that it gradually creates but total close out banks are actually ideal since it’s the wedge part of the wave breaking at angle which makes the straight hander sand bank now the perfect angle to the side swells.

STENKEL's picture
STENKEL's picture
STENKEL commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 2:22am

the potential for this is huge. We have seen so much press for one not quite carbon neutral swimming pool in central cal, surely the time has come for this in Perth, Albany, and other parts of the world that aren't reef blessed

morg's picture
morg's picture
morg commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:02pm

Could these be used to reduce beach erosion along Stockton Beach?

It’s an ongoing real problem that the Newcastle City Council and NSW Gov’t have been side stepping for decades. My understanding is that one of the reasons an artificial reef(s) wasn’t seriously considered is because the sea bed drops away quickly and gets too deep. Perhaps this concept could be presented to the Save Stockton Beach campaigners and NCC. The actual water depth probably doesn’t matter if the barge wedge thing is anchored. It would be the perfect win win if it’s primary purpose was stopping the beach erosion, and it also happened to produce quality waves and benefit tourism.

tidak_bagus's picture
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tidak_bagus commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:48am

As far as im aware the problem with stockton is a sand deficit from the breakwall being put in, an artificial reef isnt a good solution because there is no sand to manipulate and therefore no beach will build up behind it, same story with one of these. Stockton needs sand nourishment.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:42pm

No matter what the structure, if it is big enough and it blocks swell then there will be a build up behind it. Look at every tide-island or tombolo on the east coast of Australia. If there’s no sand then ok. But my guess is that longshore drift is the issue and multiples of these Vwalls would break up the constancy of that flow just like a long string of small islands. What stretch of the beaches is the issue?

marcus's picture
marcus's picture
marcus commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:21am

Nice work greg.

Not sure if it will work but i like your thought process.

With stockton i beleive they need an offshore bombora to create a spit on the lee side of the reef.

Also probably good idea to consider nost anchored trial vessels (such as port kemblas wave power generator) have sunk or washed ashore.

But i wish you well. There sure are many long stretches of boring close out that could do with a feature.

i remember the internet when it was just for inteligent people but.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:34am

Dead on! They don’t touch the sea bed and can make perfect wedges when the waves are moderate but if using the hinged version then an angle of more than 90 degrees actually send the waves back out to sea. This would hugely decrease wave energy over the entire stretch. Yes a bigger Vreef would be needed but again as I explained before in another reply, the swells are hitting an angled surface that has a mass of water behind it so the entire unit doesn’t want to budge. Check the website and watch the Vwall animation that shows three different tip angles.

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 2:01pm

Please contact the South Australian Govt Greg, they are wasting so much money on sand re-nourishment via pumping sand from one end to the other. Just this week another $52M planned for West Beach area. So frustrating when offshore reefs or your idea can protect and cure rather than band aid a big problem.

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 2:00pm

$52 will buy a round of coffees at the planning meeting. Just sayin'.

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 2:05pm

haha have added the missing "M" thermal, but you know the area im talking about, i cant belive the amount of money they spend on trucking sand, only to have it all washed away in the next storm, not to mention the wooden beach access stairs that they have to fix as well.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:45pm

Will do Amb. Good thinking and yeah movable structures that impede swells that just happen to make perfect peaks is a nice little win win.

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 10:18pm

Stoked you’re all keen...so far anyway! I’m 99.5% out of brain battery after flying back from Thailville but keen to chat in the am. Talk soon fellows. Let’s make these small ones happen fast. And negotiations are now at the signed contract stage, we will have the first Vwall built in Perth for Triggs. Mike Simm from Perth surf parks is funding it and engineering talks underway. Bless you Mike. At least with this design there will be no dragged on ridiculous wait for proof of concept. And it can’t not work. It’s too fucking simple.

Johan Wohlleben's picture
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Johan Wohlleben commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 10:22pm

Woah, if these structures can withstand big storms they would definitely transform Perth beachbreak closeouts into rideable peaks. Just the sand buildup-whether along the fulcrum or inside it, who knows? If they can shift towards the prevailing swell direction, which doesn’t vary much for at least half the year, it would be very interesting. I can see problems with beauracratic regulation re mooring and relocating but what a great idea! Thinking outside the box and along the fulcrum!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:49am

Hi Johan, yes the arms get folded back so that they are parallel to each other and so drag the is decreased hugely. And if waves are extra large they can be sunk to the sea bed and re-floated later. As for the sand build up that’s a bonus to some degree since it will make a bulge or V shaped bank which will only enhance the wave action. By being moveble then this aspect can be controlled. If there are one or more of these then they merely up anchor and slide to the side while retaining the same gap between them so that the slight bulges get evened out again.

jbshack's picture
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jbshack commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:27am

Fantastic idea and the Trigg/Scarb stretch is the perfect location for a trial. Yes god bless you Mike and Webber Bro's..

Any idea on time lines?

shraz's picture
shraz's picture
shraz commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 7:14pm

Gonna have to have a lot of faith in the forecasts. Takes the shark net guys a couple of days to pull out all their nets before a big swell, often 'in' a big swell before a bigger one, what kind of vessels are going to be needed on stand-by to move / sink, fold up this before it comes ashore.
Also when a southerly buster of some other change hits the coast and it swings around drowning a spaghetti legrope tangle of grommets who is repsonsible?

channel-bottom's picture
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channel-bottom commented Thursday, 6 Jun 2019 at 10:34pm

Great idea.

Don’t they need to be under the water though rather than on top? Shouldn’t waves break over them, anchored say 3-4 foot under water rather than on the surface?

tidak_bagus's picture
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tidak_bagus commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:50am

from what i can make out the wedge isnt there for waves to break on but bounce them off at a different angle to the prevailing swell and create wedges on the existing coastline, creating A frames not close outs.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:45am

Exactly

tidak_bagus's picture
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tidak_bagus commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:22am

Love the idea mate. There are so many stretches of coastline that could do with something like this and if it is easily removable that hopefully makes any red tape minimal or non existant. to me thats been the major hurdle not how you make the waves

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:56am

Yes that’s what’s the case. 75% underwater. Seeing that it’s an unbroken swell that being reflected just beyond the break, and at this point about a third of the wave height is below sea level then you only need 1.5m to 2m of wall height above the mean water level. You want to float them close enough to the break that the waves are still not quite breaking, and the bottom of the Vwall is not quite touching bottom at low tide. They’re only really a triangular vessel which can be moved very easily when needed.

Charlie Brown's picture
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Charlie Brown commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:56am

This was my thought too. If you look at Whale Beach, or Knights in SA, the "wall" obviously goes right to the sea bed. I feel like swell would pass straight under this (although I'd be stoked to be proved wrong).

Johan Wohlleben's picture
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Johan Wohlleben commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:00am

That’s a good question-if it’s floating then it’s not a reef as it’s not attached to the ocean floor except where it’s anchored. The arms would have to be close to the ocean floor to create sand buildup surely. I guess it can’t be too close to the bottom to allow for swinging with swell And wind. And if it’s not above water then not too deep so it actually breaks and swell just goes over or under the arms. Though the longer it stays put the more buildup is the idea? So many variables.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:01am

Yes Johan see above reply from me. Sand buildup will be slow and to move them with a moderately sized boat then the arms get pulled in to decrease drag while repositioning but in some areas there is very little variation in the gradient so it would take months to build up behind it and as swell direction changes then the trailing arms will move from side to side so that evens out whatever could form up. And some water movement happens underneath the structure as well, so this negates the buildup effect as well.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:58am

Great idea
Unfortunately way out with your costing- V wall for example - a 50m base model for as little as $100 K....$1mill will not see this built and anchored

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:36am

How can you be so sure?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:52am

Build it in Asia and bring it here in sections.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:37am

Yeah could do for sure. But they’re already so cheap for the result so I think they’ll just get made near where they’re to be deployed

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:14am

I’ve done the numbers on an unhinged model and with small waves under 4 foot using a quantity surveyors figures on a 150mm slab with top and bottom plates and it’s well under $100k. I’ll send he breakdown next message. Mate it’s just two walls with some hollow water pipes for buoyancy. 150mm thick x 4m high x 50m long x 2 arms = 400. At $100/sqm that’s $40k. At $150/sqm it’s $60k. And that figure is ignoring certification since that’s what we are aiming at minimising by registering them as vessels. And even if they come out at $200k that’s 5 per $1m and 100 per $20m like the Goldy council just spent on one single reef ! So it’s still smashing unmovable solid reefs that rest on the sea bed.!
It’s the most wave action for the least material and least cost that will ever be.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:51am

Those per m2 prices arent far off a concrete driveway cost ...on fiixed ground

carpetman's picture
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carpetman commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:57am

Hi Greg,

Firstly, love the ideas you've got rolling around up there.

You're numbers @ $100/sqm are ok for a standard 150mm ground slab but you'll need to precast the walls. This triples your cost. You would be looking at $300/sqm in Bris for a standard 150mm precast wall. The problem is, you're going to need to do MANY sections in order to get the length you require, whilst having connected pipework for flotation, and then the amount of strengthening to prevent a 50m 150mm wall from snapping like a twig is going to be huge. So I think your prelim costs are low but I'm sure there are solutions to these cost issues :)

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:52am

I’ve got $300/sqm for a 400mm tapered wall 5m high in a Wilde and Willard’s QS report for the wave pool so maybe half way. And it will have a U shaped beam structure to it as well. And! As I’ve explained in another reply the water behind is acting as support for the entire structure. It’s not a free standing beam in air and this is where very few people understand the dynamics behind it which is totally understandable. You need to be an engineer experienced in semi submersibles and a naval architect to start with and then, because it’s a novel shape that’s not well understood in the way waves are running along it, then it still takes some explanation, even if you do have those qualifications.

carpetman's picture
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carpetman commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:44am

Hi Greg,

I assume that 400mm wall will be formed in place? The price I've quoted above is from Rawlinsons construction cost 2017, so even that price is a touch low on standard 150mm precast. This would also require to be significantly modified precast but leaving that aside for the moment... For the water acting as a support; It is free to move under, over & out the bottom end of the V, yes, there would be some internal force applied to the inside of the V, but unless the water is held in place will it be enough to overcome the forces when there is a 40 knot southerly, with 8 sec southerly wind swell & a 15 sec easterly ground swell. Like you say this is very complex but it can be calculated/modeled.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:05pm

Ok pricing I can get back to.
You’re thinking is pretty good on the water side and you have a grasp of the dynamics. But what is hard to grasp is the rate at which the water has to move out of the way as the wave force slides along the wall. As a way of highlighting this dynamic, if you fall flat into the water from the side of a pool the water doesn’t move away fast enough and you get the sting of a belly flop and this is very slow. If you fall from 100m off a cliff the water cannot move out of your path fast enough and you die. So any point load on the outside surface of the wall is not even a point load anyway. It’s the width of the wave and the cross section of a wave in shape, or roughly a sine curve and so long as the concrete cannot bend more than a few centimetres over lets say 5m of wall length, then this one single wave, glancing the face of the wall is having its load or force spread over the entire 50m of the wall!! It will be a piss-farting force for the structure to deal with. Imagine it another way and the 50m x 4m reinforced slab with its 500mm end caps is just floating on top of an Olympic swimming pool. The hollow voids underneath are keeping it a few inches above the water level. Now drive a 2 tonne four wheel drive onto that slab at 8km/hr and do you think it will bend and snap off one end as the vehicle drives onto it? Or will the thing just drive the entire length of what’s effectively a very strong pontoon and get to the other side. I get what your feeling will happen but the water underneath will not move out of the way unless there is a huge deformation in the structure like a big bulge from the thing flexing under the load over a small distance of like 5m. That slab will not flex almost at all over that short distance and so what that car is trying to do is tilt one end down and lift the other end out of the water at the same time. No way. And we will be using one or two bracing support structures between the two arms anwway so it’s never going to be some fundamental problem what we just didn’t think of or consider. Thanks for the tone of your comments though. Valid points and politely delivered.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:11pm

Oh yeah your argument can only be applied to a fixed Vwall like the small prototype for Triggs. Once proven only beaches with a small swell range would use the fixed version. Wherever swell and wind combos exist like the one you mentioned then the arms get folded back a few degrees or totally side by side and then it’s a narrow wall with a bow about 1m wide with 75% underwater offering vastly less resistance to the waves and will handle easily. Or if it gets even bigger they get towed further out and the voids are allowed to fill until it sinks to the bottom away from all those nasty waves, to be re-floated when there swell calms down.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:39am

Ok here’s a reply to someone else who also thought the same thing but really if you just get a pen and paper out before panning an idea to an order of magnitude then you can comment. And remember it’s effectively just two 50m tilt slab walls. That’s four 25m factory walls. With no floor and no roof. A seaside swimming pool is 50m, so have a think, halve that and make a box in your head. What factory that size with a roof and slab floor costs $500k ???accounting for $500k for the DA. Mate you can build an entire house for under $500k and Jesus Christ a fully blown DA building on land with ten or more detailed reports is less than $500k. Your just the type I love replying to.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:40am

Ok here’s the reply to another guy on the rough costing:
I did roughly in my head, and it's possible at 45m long by 4m wall height for 3 to 4 foot waves at Triggs.

That's two 45m slabs totalling 90m x 4m = 360 sq/m at apx $100/sqm = $36,000

using the quantity surveyors rates, see attached (I just went between the two prices)

then add 2 x 500mm top and bottom plates for rigidity (to form a U shaped beam not an I beam)
this then adds $9,000

Probably made in 11m sections to join on site and to fit onto trucks.

Add god knows what for buoyancy voids which can be 500mm storm water pipes which I've priced out of China at $20/m

need 50 of them to keep the thing afloat but partially filled with water to balance front to back and at what depth.

4m x 50 = 200m which is $4,000.

add 50 valves attached to the top of the pipes plus internal piping let's say $100 per cylinder.

Mounting to the top and bottom plates, plus end caps, $200 per pipe = $10,000

brackets for mounting are pretty basic but might need to be stainless so add another $10,000

$36,000
$9,000
$4,000
$10,000
$10,000
totals $69,000 so far. That leaves $31,000 to put it together and tow out through the river (Ballina or Clarence)

Also there is hopefully no DA or EIS since I'm trying to get this registered as a vessel to avoid all of that. It's just a highly stable open water fishing platform that I'm going to anchor off the break and have a covered deck on top. The small 5m deck at the front can be a triangle of reinforced concrete of the same thickness and will add to the rigidity so that will add 12.5 sqm which adds probably $4k when you factor in the formwork.

James Howden is investigating that since he works for the Australian navy for certification with all sorts of bodies.

and if not then I build one in Bali with one of Nigel Potts mates who's a developer and has built a hotel recently and will just make the thing even cheaper and tow it out.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:58am

And in terms of the dynamics behind the forces you have to understand 2 things: 1. that with about 75% of each wall underwater then what is the wave pushing against? The wall yes but what’s on the other side of the wall? Water! And it doesn’t want to move, so each wave is trying to bend a concrete slab that’s got hundreds of tonnes of water behind it.
2. If the width of the base of the triangular form is about 40m then each section of each wave on each side is only 20m wide since it’s being split in half. This chunk is moving at about 6m/second if it’s 3 to 4 foot. It’s travelling along the 50m wall over a period of about 8 seconds. So the deflection is gradual. There is no single impact. The design has an inherent load spreading aspect due to the water behind the wall and it is also spreading the force over time as the wave runs along the edge. So the wave action is being split by an arrow head that’s got a massive chunk of stationery water behind it that does not want to be moved. Even without an anchor it would be very hard to move this shape if one wave hit it head on, the anchor is more for allowing it to retain alignment with the swells than to handle any huge forces.

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simba commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:56am

Well im hoping GW is on to something here and i tip my hat to you Greg, cause surfing needs minds like yours thinking outside of the box.

simba

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:22am

Thanks Simba.

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simba commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:10am

Wonder what effect the wave energy would do to the beach....erosion or maybe form other banks cause it would have to change the water flow?

simba

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:38am

Imagine how happy Da Bone would be if one of these were installed at Portsea aka the bank-less beach

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velocityjohnno commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:22pm

Industrial strength for average swell size there. I've got a beaut pic somewhere of Portsea offshore and 12-15ft... no one out!

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Nick Bone commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 2:04pm

Porto just has just come too the end of having like a 4-5 month stint of waves. So many transformations. So many variations of the bank.

All over now.

Bring on the GW Vshape, god knows when Portsea will haves after a run like that.

I am the bone

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:14pm

Yes that might be a bit big but if more than half the year it’s not that huge then it’s still viable. But possibly as you said the larger and chunkier versions.

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web-cams-save-m... commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:05am

Parked slightly offshore in appropriate places they would reduce the amount of wave energy reaching the shore as some of it would be dissipated breaking at the "V". Of course it could act as a reef concentrating or rather directing concentrated energy to specific locations on the shoreline. Being movable could aid in experimentation because if the truth be told, humans can plan as much as they like but the shoreline is such a volatile environment that the only way to accurately see the impact of a piece of infrastructure like this is to put it out there and wait for the sea to do its thing in its various incantations.

Clarrie

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 12:06pm

yes you're onto it.

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HaddoCurl commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:42am

Love your work Greg and Dan. Keep it going guys.

Haddo

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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:18am

Pretty sure Ive talked about similar ideas in artificial reef thread.

Would be great to see this kind of stuff happen, unfortunately pretty much anywhere in Australia bar maybe the Gold Coast locals and even surfers would be against any kind of development at their beach, even submerged artificial reefs are going to be harder to get approved. (just look at the local surfers at Park Beach Tassie, one of crappiest waves in Australia and still many are against an artificial reef) and their surfers, imagine trying to get this shit past all the other whingers.

Only way to make these things viable is to be semi mobil so can move if need be.

Best place to start is build one somewhere like Indonesia so can be built cheap, prove that they work thats the only chance to get support.

Get the Indonesia government involved to boast tourism in a non tourism areas (plenty of suitable areas that get swell and offshores but just have crap beachies. (many areas in Java)

Then maybe once people see it can work and the positives of boasting tourism etc then maybe there is some chance of support in Australia.

Better still make it as much about combating erosion as surfing and it might increase chances of success...

For example , instead of artificial surfing reefs, use words like "Eco reefs beach preservation project, combating the effects of climate change"

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:18pm

You obviously didn’t check the website. Yes totally movable that’s the whole idea. If they don’t want it then no probs it gets towed away. Any fixed structure costs way more to build and is virtually impossible to move... so yep you’re right as to how many people cause a stink over those versions .

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:21pm

Already made moves for Bali due exactly the reasons you’ve mentioned. But already have an existing business associate committing about $100,000 to a smaller fixed angle version for Trigg beach in Perth.

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shoredump commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:11am

This is why I buy lotto

user's picture
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user commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:24am

anything on anchor faces the wind, not the swell.

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jbshack commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:35am

When the majority of the structure is underwater, i think the swell direction would override the wind factor..

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:22pm

Thanks Jbshack. He didn’t really read the story or look at the website before commenting.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:23pm

And you think this is like a boat ? With 90% of the surface area above the waterline? Just read a little or check the website before commenting maybe. 75% underwater makes the wave movement dominate 10 fold over any wind. If there is zero swell then they will waft about with wind or current but then who cares since it’s flat.

user's picture
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user commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:01pm

yer read the site.
if its a current, like tide or sweep, it will swing that way , but not swell, unless its 100% submerged

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OHV500 commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:27am

I need to see some runs on the board . Ideas, theories etc. we all have them but...

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:43am

We have a signed contract to build the Vwall prototype. That’s why I’ve gone public on this.

OHV500's picture
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OHV500 commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 8:24am

So your in the clubhouse, but haven't yet set foot on the playing field. Its great that someone has given you dollars but thats not to say it'll work. I love a surf and are always looking for a new bank, reef etc. BUT I would never put this in-front of an eco-system. I cannot think of one man made structure that has helped the environment ?
PS: I posted this before but its seems to have been deleted.

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ojackojacko commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:46am

Onya Greg and Dan. Great to hear proof of concept will happen soon. The Narrabeen stretch needs a few of these if they work.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:19pm

Yeah that’s one of the best gradients with no outside bank.
They will make pipes along that’s stretch

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Graeme Murdoch commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:48am

As always can only applaud the thinking and admire the person.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:29pm

Thanks Graeme. How’s the bitchy nay sayers though! My god it’s amazing that anything ever gets built in the risk averse horrified of being sued western world. I love the Russian approach to testing rocket engines which got them well ahead of the Americans until their whole program got axed. They preferred to build one and just test the thing and if it failed they got to know why it failed way better than all the studies and analyses that nasa was doing.

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hillsintas commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:51am

Great idea................

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:12pm

Thanks Russ.

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sirlot commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:59am

Hi Greg , thanks for bringing to light such a fantastic idea. I am wondering if recyclable plastics could be used in some parts of the construction coated with something that stops leaching, may help in costs,

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:14pm

Thanks and yeah my older brother john is very environmentally minded and suggested a few alternatives. In time maybe that can be looked at. But need to do proof of concept as strongly and cheaply as possible first.

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hillsintas commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:02am

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:18pm

Yep seen that and it’s a winner down the track. Circular will be amazing for the range of wave size. Vreef changes angle while the circular doesn’t need to. Biggest weakness is that only a small stretch is at the ideal angle to the swell. But what a thing to see hey!

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jbshack commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:38am

Surely for only a few hundred grand, the idea could be crowdfunded somehow?

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bukz commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:47am

Don't give him $. It's not proven to work and he has a history of collecting investor money and not delivering shit.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:19pm

I have a signed contract to build one for testing in Perth.

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OHV500 commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 5:28pm

So your kinda in the clubhouse - but haven't yet crossed onto the field of play. You have someone who's prepared to finance it, and have a look see - well done - but that means nothing until it actually works. In my mind, most man made structures, have an adverse effect on an ecosystem. I love a wave, but would never put this love in front of the environment. Just saying.

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bukz commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 11:44am

Another idea, another patent... get that pool happening first otherwise Greg is just words, words, words... mate invested $ in his pool and 9 years later still nothing, Greg just keeps coming back with rumours of a new location that never goes ahead.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:23pm

Building a $30m wave pool on a fully developed hotel location in the US isn’t easy, and retaining share value without one single dilution also slows the process. Yes it’s been slow but with this Vreef and Vwall project then I can divert my own funds along with the funds of the same guy who’s building the Vwall prototype to the building of a single channel linear wave pool on his own land in Perth. So yeah maye there’s a plan behind this all all to end up with proof of concept for both.

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bukz commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:43pm

So another rich guy with money and a piece of land ready to build your pool, this one now in Perth... oh no maybe some secret location in the U.S.! ... give us a break mate!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:42pm

Yeah his own land and the single channel linear is way way cheaper than a fully blown looped linear. He own the WA license for Webber wave pools so this is our plan together to on one hand create waves at existing beaches with a much cheaper form, and then with that proven then the value in the license for Vwalls goes up hugely since you’ve just proven that it works. Then he and I fund the single channel linear which he doesn’t even need to commercialise so there’s virtually no DA. He will then do a deal with an existing developer in Perth that’s shown keen interest once the wave is proven. We don’t prove wave rate yet but we do make the biggest piping tube that anyone has ever seen in a wave pool, and that triggers the rest of it all. But by then usa might have built or even tunnel vision, so this is the back up plan that requires a very simple thing to get built from simple materials and towed into place.

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sharkman commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 9:36am

Greg do you understand that because you say it doesn't make it real?

x

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ron commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 11:04am

Whats the go on the QLD one?

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velocityjohnno commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:23pm

Love the idea Greg, one question: given that swells oscillate the water column down to the seabed, do you have to make the walls all the way down in order to refract all/enough of the swell?

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:07pm

Yes you are totally right and they will reach within a meter or so of the sand below at low tide. And don’t forget these are immaculate dead flat walls at 90% degrees to the water surface and so they will reflect the swell very efficiently compared to a rough sea wall made of car sized blocks and rock. So about 90% of the swell will get reflected, and these wedge waves don’t even need 50% of the wave height reflected in order to have a great result.

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waxyfeet commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:45pm

Sunny coast please, the whole Kawana strip. Whole place is being built up, and we all can;t stick to the same peak!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:08pm

Yeah perfect wave zone there.

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davetherave commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 12:54pm

great idea. i actually proposed a similar thing for the gold coast beach management strategy. public liability greg? because it will be classified as a piece of infrastructure and it's main aim is for surfing, what happens if someone gets injured surfing it???????
i hope this doesn't complicate things because we all know we need more surfable surf spots, especially in close out areas. two thumbs up from me and all the best with it.

davetherave

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:13pm

We will see how they get classified. But if the waves are not breaking on the structure, which is how it’s desigend, but away from the wall when the two waves meet up and overlap, then there is no contact with the wall at all. And it’s not as a result of the owners negligence in terms of design if someone climbs onto that piece of property and hurts themselves. But yes it’s being considered.

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MapleDropbear commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:18pm

Why not crowdfund this? I reckon there would be enough lads on the GC who could chip in. Throw some sponsorship on the walls and you'll get the money soon enough...

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bukz commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:45pm

You are crazy if you want to give him money

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:46pm

Mate try to relax bukz. If nothing happens then you’re so right but if it all happens I still hope you get some fun waves at any of the things I’ve spent most of my life trying to get built without a billionaire’s backing. I promise you it’s not easy to find funding for things that are not easy to understand.

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MapleDropbear commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:03pm

so make it an attraction that you pay for... could be crowdfunded. would control numbers... think of it like aqua splash but for surfers..... There is an angle here to get this up...

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sharkman commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 9:40am

billionaires are probably a lot smarter than you Greg , so see a conman coming fromK's away!
but Bukz is right on!

x

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 9:57am

Who knows maybe I’m smarter! And who cares about me personally, is the thing going to make many more waves for surfers or not? You and Buzz lightyear have personality disorders and have issues with anyone who’s either successful or inventive or rich or powerful so I’ll try not to bait you any further.

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Laurie McGinness commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:24pm

I wonder if you could do a double V. Reverse the first V so that its mouth was pointing into the swell, this would amplify the existing swell. The outlet would then act as a point source to produce a curved wave front that would then strike the V as Greg has designed it. Well in theory anyway!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:56pm

Well done Laurie!! Check the wave magnifying system on the website. Almost exactly what your saying. Too hard to hold the thing stationery with one V pointing in the opposite direction but two vee shaped structures side by side create the same wave compression. It does need a little bit of parallel wall length to get the swells to become ordered again but yep in principle you’re right. You can then increase wave height by about 50% from compression and then run that bigger swell into a Vwall to add another 50% from reflection when it wedges.

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Laurie McGinness commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:55pm

Ha ha way ahead of me!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:57pm

Mate you only took a few minutes to come up with it so that’s great!

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Clam commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:45pm

Wonder how a 20sec peroid swell will affect this ?

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:03pm

Would be a problem for a small version but as mentioned before if it’s a huge swell the sides get folded back and if need be towed out into deeper water and sunk to the sea bed to re-floated when the swell backs off. Each Vwall would be sized and constructed according to the swell regime for that region. Big and strong enough to handle 90% of what’s thrown at it. Which means two of three times a year it’s be towed out. But in time I’m sure very big versions will get made. Still with foldable arms and much more costly but with the benefit of handling very big swells and creating a much wider zone of reflected waves to either side. And don’t forget surfers will be able to paddle out in the small to almost no wave zone behind each one of these things.

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truebluebasher commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 1:57pm

1970's Golden Breed Posters or Floating V Wave Power Units?
What's great is the move to a smaller footprint...that alone goes in Greg's favour.

Commentators ask if V- Wall or V Reef can be submerged?
Wave/current powered 'Black Rock T36' V arms pivot with flow from anchor mount.
https://www.namasha.com/v/z4KpshzB/Film_Black_Rock_Tidal_Power
tbb is no lawyer as to what is new or being patented...Good luck to whoever.

Greg's design does introduce 'Hinged' Arms.
Inshore Wave Walls & anchoring, resemble UNIT Wave Pools or Council sea pens.

V designs are a foreshore "attraction" to Navigation (Local/State/Federal Govts)
GC community has fought off CST-Marinas / Dive Reefs / Surf Reefs / Fountains..
Council must twist the terms for approval...(V Beach Replenishing Surf 'n' Dive Reef)

Ask why would any Oz council consider "Surfer's Toy Terminal." as a priority?
No benefit for Wave derived Power/Beaches/Marine Park/Fishing/Diving.
Surely V designs must provide a whole communal benefit to be approved.

GCCC actually state that repetitive CST wave action will erode Spit Sand Dunes.
Ask how "V" SBT (Surf Board Terminal) replenishes the beach?

Without Community benefit or support ...V project would need private leasing.
A private Surf Resort on a Public Beach comes with entry fee + Bars & security.
Locals lose natural connect between Beach - Surf - Sunrise (Mad Max every day?)

Marine life have suffered with similar installations.
The loss of Whitewater rids Forage Fish starving Larger fish Stock.
How many breaks lost in the swell shadow?
Won't Mullet Run detour away from coast?
Jellies Bluebottles,Lice, Seaweed will trap in Wave Zone [BEACH CLOSED].

XX Large wildlife trap invites Bigger Hungrier Sharks...(really!)
The wave walls line Birds whose large shadows invite large sharks to leap.
Surfers Eco Cred is lost with each mass haul of nasties dumped due to own greed.

Near every Council Sea Swim Pen from Albany to Cairns invites Mega Fauna.

This vid shows Council Float Walls shaping Waves to invite Crocodile..
Should Cairns apply for anchored Wave Wall Surfing Wildlife Sanctuary Patent?
https://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/national/beach-closed-after-c...

Townsville anchored floating walls shape Waves inviting Shark Ray into swim pen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbj_6MC23xQ

Council Shark pools!
https://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/news/shovel-nose-shark-seen-swim...

https://www.facebook.com/7NewsGoldCoast/videos/shark-spotted-inside-nets...

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/sharks/albany-swimmer-stunned-by-shark-...

[factcheck] Anchored wave enclosures wall birds attracting Sharks...
[factcheck] Enclosures pool Jellies/Seaweed inviting marinelife attracting Sharks...
V Waves Terminal would need a Mega Shark Shield with Command Posts.

One would imagine the coastal town would need to evacuate or switch channels.
All because the world is surfboard flavoured...add a Lighthouse Disco & tbb is sold!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:24pm

Gees TBB you’re a funny fucker and some good queries and quick research and counterpoints. I’ll just do a little bit now. The patent on the pivoting aspect due to ocean waves is not invalidated by pivoting due to a current.
As for approvals by council how about their excitement when property values go up by 10% to 20% due to only ten of these things being built and towed into place in front of five to ten 300 to 400 roomed hotels on he Goldy. 10% increase on only three hotels totaling only 1000 high rise apartments on the Goldy is $70m. I’ve had estimates of a doubling of values from key people in one of the biggest accounting firms on the planet. So yes they’ll get leased to the developers for new coastal projects and possibly directly to councils for existing zones, like the Goldy or casurina. Turning closeouts into wedging throwing peaks for very low cost per unit with as you said a small footprint makes it pretty doable.
As for flora and fauna they can be moved side to side every few weeks and cannot trap anything but will always attact attention from fish but no moreso than any breakwall that we surf along side. And if sharks come along then I’ve got an active shark net design that can cope with all the next batch of questions that I’m sure it will attract. Ten to twenty of these things along a beach that has always had close-outs, with a shark net a few hundred meters offshore makes for a pretty cool new way of spreading the crowd while being able to relax as well as have fun.

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kookfactor commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:24pm

Thanks TBB, like that you are thinking about the creatures that live beneath. I'm seeing some issue with the accum of seaweed seasonally which may get pongy but does offer food source for the chain. Also most beaches set up a channel/rip scenario that runs for point to point and sometimes drains out around beach centre. So thinking if the dynamic's are similar there may be rips running seaward from the inshore V structure as we see with most sandbar setups depending on tides. This may churn out a channel either side becoming a lil fish highway and also attracting larger predators to the spew point in deeper water. Anyone jumping off the V tip to be out the back might be straight into the berley trap.
I'm sure every beach has its own nuances and current patterns, sure the wave direction dictates some but tide/current and other forces are at work constantly and one can never discount the wind/chop aspect on beach dynamics. There is an unknown for every location, say down here in SWWA when its 20ft and glassy the beaches are a suicide mission but would this model handle, hold that into a each way pitted peeler aahhhh the possibilities.

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memlasurf commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 2:22pm

I wonder how environmentalist would handle it? It aint pretty but I love the concept and I wonder how it could work on a powerful exposed coast where it can be 6 foot+ for weeks with 15+ second intervals and big tides? Sink it as you said I suppose then get a a barge to reflect it. Be handy on the MP but you would have Buckleys and none floating that thing in the ocean. Maybe the west coast would be a good fit around Fairhaven area as it is all classed as residential. And how would it effect long shore drift of sand by robbing Peter to pay Paul? As I said Greg love the idea and may have legs but anywhere away from intense surf areas or in National Parks you would have zero hope of floating it but maybe that doesn't matter. Gotta admire your lateral thinking.

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icandig commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:41pm

Love the idea, but please stay away from Fairhaven.
There's enough waves around here if you know where to look.
Not needed here.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:32pm

Yeah some good points but with 620,000 kms of ocean facing coastlines on earth and some vastly more development flexible countries and states and counties I’m sure they’ll be popping up all over soon enough. Think the Chinese and Indian coasts. They’ll learn in wave pools and and eventually adventure to the coasts. So these things can spread the crowd on a massive level. Yes not so sexy in themselves but the waves they make will be.

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epictard commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 1:09pm

Vietnam also has a very long coastline that gets swell. Last time I was there I saw a couple of days of 3 - 4ft close outs along a beach where you could fit many of these things.
There are some surf camps opening over there too. A large surf camp company would, I imagine, be keen to have a look at these in practice and open up shop where they can.

shraz's picture
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shraz commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 8:37pm

Could be a great plastic and garbage collector for those southeast asian waters, ghost nets etc.

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yahabo commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 2:58pm

Please. For the love of God, build a few at Middleton, Goolwa, Bashams and Port Elliot.

n!ck's picture
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n!ck commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 3:54pm

Yes please! The stretch is so long we could fit many in there.
Robe, beachport also.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:34pm

Ok you guys can have the ones that mr Fairhaven doesn’t want

icandig's picture
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icandig commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 8:26am

Thanks Greg, plenty of other places you can stick them. Like I said - love the idea, but reckon if you dropped one in down here it would bring the hoards down.

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 12:16pm

initially yes, it would attract more surfers and then they might "find" your slightly more hidden waves so I totally get you. But don't forget as these things get built all over then these surfers will just go the ones in their own area, and overall, in short period of time, there will be far more alternative waves to ride than already exist and so this just has to decrease crowd levels.

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willibutler commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 6:40pm

Hahah not in fairhaven there’s already good enough waves and it makes it all the more special when the banks do get good and you have an amazing surf out there after alll the crappy days driving past with shit surf

willibutler's picture
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willibutler commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 6:41pm

You have to at least put it somewhere that doesn’t already have half decent waves from time to time

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icandig commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 12:54pm

That's exactly my point willi. It's a bonus when a sneaky bank turns on and you can score with few people around. Leave paradise as it is and take the big yellow taxi to the Ocean Grove stretch where it's probably more suited. It might even divert beaching whales from there : P.

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ron commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 11:14am

Have you considered all the non surfing ocean frontage home owners who probably don't want triangular concrete walls in their ocean view or the hoards of surfers and their cars parking in the area? These sorts of people tend to get their way when it comes to things like this.

n!ck's picture
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n!ck commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:00pm

Such an interesting idea, hopefully it works a treat in the virgin Triggs application. Eagerly await the results.
The concrete version would be great for board swapping and having a snack or drink mid session.
And salt water / sea air is an unbeatable combo that wave pools can’t compete with.
I love the thinking here. Nice one

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velocityjohnno commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:34pm

Floreat, Brighton, Scarborough, Trigg - crying out for it.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:39pm

Thanks Nick and yeah if you could get it passed and maybe sign waivers to be allowed onboard, then the fun on top of the structure would be great. If covered by an entire platform and with the trailing arms built with sloped inner positioned ramps to paddle onto and walk up then you could even run along the wall and jump onto the reflecting waves. Let alone hanging out there, changing boards or having a drink or snack as you said.

The Shaper's picture
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The Shaper commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:56pm

All my surfing life, I have looked at long straight sections of beach when the swell is clean, offshore and closing out in massive stretches and wished I had a dredge. ....just dredge out a nice deep channel on the correct angle use the sand to build the bank out in to deeper water........so simple so cheap (comparitively) and easy on the environment too. Proof of concept was that sand dropping exercise on the Gold Coast a year or two back the waves worked they just were not long enough. You could have 5 or 10 v banks on a stretch of beach. ....I would certainly pay for couple of hours admission for something like that.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:51pm

Totally agree. How annoying that such a simple idea is so hard to put in place. But if these things work it achieves almost the same thing. I thought of a similar idea but using the sand at the shoreline so that tractors at the sides of a moderately sized mining conveyor belt could load it up and dump it 100m out. It would have to be supported on pontoons or rolled out with 3m high wheels and then the base structure is held up by large flat feet in the same way that cranes are driven into place and then the much wider steel feet are lowered into the ground to stabilise the the thing as the wheels are raised. Then as the sand gets above sea level the tractors drive out and kevelnit a shut and allow the big belt to go itr another 50m or so. And just like any sand bank it won’t last forever and will smoothen out over time but it’s not permanent as you say and would it still be amazing to see how the king sand bank evolves over the first few days of swell.

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quokka commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 1:11am

A while back here in Perth a bulldozer pushed sand from the beach into the water to make a small point. This seemed to disrupt the longshore flow redirecting it out to sea. The following weekend there was two pumping A frame banks either side of were this was done. There was a Volcom air comp held that weekend so assume they had something to do with it. Can’t see why this couldn’t be done more often. The council pays for a tractor to rake the beach, why not pay to build some points to create banks. Very cheap and virtually no environmental impact.

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:17pm

Totally, quokka. It's always surprised me that the beach has been groomed in a straight north-to south contour. Your suggestion is a very cheap way of creating some shape. Yes artificial little points would get reverted to the mean, but the only cost would be a bit of fuel and someone's time every now and then.

kookfactor's picture
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kookfactor commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:31pm

Dredging would be very disruptive to the seabed and all of nature that relies on it. Would you be willing to contradict an ecosystem for some sandbank waves?

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kym Polkinghorne commented Tuesday, 6 Aug 2019 at 11:14pm

Yes

kym Polkinghorne's picture
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kym Polkinghorne commented Tuesday, 6 Aug 2019 at 11:15pm

I have thought the same, This would have to be the cheapest and easiest solution.
Once you have made the channel you could put in place a small permanent seawall or boulders on the shoreline where the waves wash in and gouge out a hole. This would then create a permanent rip in the channel in turn replenishing the banks and require less dredging. Any experts on dredging care to comment about the logistics of it ? . feasibility ? Size ? type of dredge needed?

The Shaper's picture
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The Shaper commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 4:59pm

by the way, I think this idea of Gregs has much more merit than wave pools.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:54pm

Maybe in some ways but if it’s flat or crappy for a few weeks let alone a few months then proper non wave pool surfers will start thinking of them.

The Shaper's picture
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The Shaper commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 7:55am

Well then its obvious the next stage will be a mobile (floating )swell machine. So that opens up all sorts of additional bogglings of the mind........

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 12:19pm

Yes you are right, that's next. I've got two designs for that. One makes kelvin wakes and one makes solitons.

The Shaper's picture
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The Shaper commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 8:34am

Greg I also say this from a business perspective. You don't need approval from anybody to build it. You don't need to buy water, don't have on going water quality issues, don't have the logistical issues of land development and management and endless red tape, you only need approval to park it for a time. it can be removed, You can just build it, then actually demonstrate it and measure the environmental impact make applications with actual data....t.....e.c.t .........much easier road to commercialise,than a wave pool, a more practical business case in many ways. Of course you would need contingencies to salvage it should it sink..........lol!..... but that.s all in a plan......... good luck with this one.

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 1:15pm

I sure hope its all that much easier, but as someone suggested (and Ive made a start on it,) Bali is also perfect for a test case if the Perth development gets bogged down by council or the environmental protection agency or whatever it's called. It is going to be almost no certification and certainly no EIS in Bali. We will only use the exact same materials as the concrete that's used in tetra blocks and harbour structures all overt the world.

funpeeler's mate's picture
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funpeeler's mate commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:27pm

Imagine these along the Middleton/Goolwa stretch! Surely if the Vic Harbour council can agree to a tuna pen for ‘economic and tourism’ benefits a couple of these would be supported?

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 5:55pm

You’d hope so!

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:04pm

You could net the area in the V at Victor Harbour and have both - wave alterations AND a tuna pen

hahaha, er, no I wouldn't wish that on anyone, particularly surfers

https://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s886322.htm

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 1:20pm

Ha, no thanks! checked the story, what a mad scene hey. Tuna being chomped and a man's business being damaged and the protected species having a ball.

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PCS PeterPan commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:04pm

GREG , this idea is next level ! so many coastal stretches could benefit , so many waves . To be honest , personally the wavepools of the world hold no interest to me , but this , this is awesome .
Obviously you and your collaborator wont be deterred by naysayers . Anyone worried about some slabs creating good surfable waves where there wasn't any ,
tell them to go check out some broad acre land clearing or any other enviromental
nightmares currently being allowed by fed,state and local governments .
If it comes to crowdfunding this one . . . . I will tip in.

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 1:33pm

Thanks peter, yeah it's a big result for such a low cost and low impact, if any. Being so cheaply removable is so key. If it's causing a problem then we take it away. Imagine the local surfers when if and this ever happens!
But the plan is to move them every few weeks at any beach zones that have very consistent swell directions since a build up will form in the lee of the Vwall and gutters to the outside edges just past the reflected wave zone. Where swell directions change often then the protected zone behind the structure shifts from side to side and so the sand build up will be close to non existent since the Vwall will move more sideways than the width at the base.

Billyw's picture
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Billyw commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:20pm

we are lucky to have people like Greg

B Dub

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:28pm

Hats off once again to Greg for engaging in discussion here, makes the comments almost as good read as the article.

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:35pm

Carnies Wagons & Trucks either inflate or swing open the latest thrill rides.

Jolly Roger Surf Air is a Ship Container~'Party Wave Hire'. In a few hours...Surfs Up!
by Murphy's Waves
https://waterslide.net/product-range/the-surf-air-wave-ride/

Lucy Pet's Gnarly Crankin' K-9 Wave Maker is also a 'dial a wave' for doggies.
Guiness World record largest heaviest float / mobile wave pool by AWM.
https://www.lucypetfoundation.org/gnarly-crankin-k9-wavemaker/

Unit Floating Wave Pool takes 2 weeks to set up in chosen waterway.
https://www.surf-pool.com/

SS SOAR Tows V Barge drops Anchor & flips out a perfect A Frame for Surf Festival
Greg's resourceful adaptable 'V' wave shapes up dull East Coast string-lined banks.

tbb wonders what time frame to hook up a 'V' Frame Line-up from T2 Barge
Surely quicker to erect than WSL unused Big Top penthouses on vacated GC venue.
Greg could well be ahead of the WSL game...meant as a compliment

tbb listed enviro concerns that apply to any surf attraction not just The 'V' waves.
Such issues need to be sorted whatever the design,maybe less so here?
In this day & age light footprint,zero power,relocatable attraction is the lesser of evils.
Councils are fastracking wave deserts so Greg's 'V' wave may just save the day!
Happy to know the option is there should we need it!

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:43pm

I’ll check the links tomorrow and thanks for the thoughts and delivery. I don’t check anything else in this realm of wave makers and I guess I should

Westofthelake's picture
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Westofthelake commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 6:57pm

Hi Greg,

Honestly, more recently I have been thinking a lot more about how an artificial wave at the beach could be made. There's got to be a way! There's got to be a better way!

Never got real far due to seeing limits in material type, and costs, and how to stop it washing away in the big swells.

Thank goodness for creative thinkers who see beyond limits, and who see limits as a challenge to overcome.

The design blows my mind with its simplicity and practicality.

I really hope the pilot version works as expected. Theoretically it all seems pretty logical.

All the best.

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:45pm

Thanks mate and what’s annoying is that I didn’t think of this Vwall a lot lot earlier. Love the pic and surf verses super model jibe.

frog's picture
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frog commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:14pm

Greg,
Rebound wedges are much more pronounced if a rock wall hooks over at the top so that the surge slams into this and is forced back on itself.

A hint of a bank really helps too to avoid a wedge being a 1 second ride before a shorebreak slam. Some modelling to see what happens to sand in the break zone is needed. Would it scour out a hole where you need a bank or would a rip form pulling sand out to where it is useful?

Frogg

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 9:53pm

Sorry but nothing will reflected better than a smooth vertical wall. The hook over just makes a wash and any turbulence means loss of energy.
They are movable so the prototype will show all of that. At real scale

teabag64's picture
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teabag64 commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:14pm

Install them along the beach between Golden Bay and Secret Harbour here in WA

Paul Stewart

tubeshooter's picture
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tubeshooter commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:29pm

I'm loving the creativity and innovation GW , It's refreshing.
I have a couple of questions tho , not as a bitching nay sayer as you put it , but just on the point you made about be the things being classed as vessels ,, you may have no choice in that matter to the best of my understanding.
Have you had any feedback from the Australian Maritime Safety Authority , or any feedback from a qualified marine survey engineer?
You also mention a 'moderate vessel' would be required to move it around. I would imagine part of the Safety Management Plan would require 'that' vessel to be in close proximity to the structure at all times when deployed, ,,for so many obvious reasons.
What would be the daily operational costs to dedicate a vessel {size,crew etc} to this operation?.
I'd love to see the look on the government surveyors face when you plant this one on his desk.. if it goes in the 'unpowered barge' box you have will have to apply for certain exemptions , and well , let's just say that can be tedious road to go down.
Though , if they do work out , the gov will surely amend the marine act to classify such setups separately, but that would be way off yet.
All the best with it

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Greg Webber commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:50pm

Your are probably right and we have our own naval architect doing the project management plan at all levels. He said similar things to me too. He’s highly qualified in this exact field since he works for the Australian navy on refits and maintenance of systems for the biggest naval vessels we have. But I’m going to play the game between industry and council and maybe even state level by showing how valuable these things are and yet altering the design in whatever ways we can to make them fit the criteria of being classified as a vessel. Even if they have to have two massive outboards attached to transoms on each leg then so be it. And maybe it’s classed as a vessel when arms are swung inwards to a certain angle and width and then a platform when it reverts to a platform but at that point it’s not moving. So who knows I’m not going to be stopped or slowed by beaurocracy which is why I’m starting the ball rolling in Bali.

tubeshooter's picture
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tubeshooter commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 7:51pm

Thx GW, It will be hard for those maritime bureaucratic buffoons to pidgeon hole this one , but I applaud your effort. cheers

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abc-od commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 7:29pm

They've got Tom Morey, we've got Greg Webber.

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haggis commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:20pm

Hi Greg. Great ideas. But where is your wavepool? Urbnsurf about to open in Melbourne. Slater opened his a few years ago. There’s been a lot of talk. When is yours opening and where?

Old Gregg's picture
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Old Gregg commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:24pm

Greg,
Few spots between Ocean Grove/Point Lonsdale that would suit this. Massively growing population down this way that the real breaks nearby can't handle anymore

Westofthelake's picture
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Westofthelake commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:38pm

"Turning closeouts into wedging throwing peaks for very low cost per unit" - GW

That'd be great!

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dangerouskook2000 commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 8:58pm

Great idea Greg. I've been saying this for ages. We need one of these every 200 metres between the gold coast spit and Ballina. If the wsl and marketers and shit want to promote surfing then we need more waves. Currently there's more surfers than waves and its only going to get worse. Otherwise stop marketing surfing to line your own pockets you bunch of marketing cunts. Actually, as Bill Hicks said "Just go and kill yourselves"

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 1:54pm

Nice! yeah I've finally realised that the majors or any entity with stock that's hugely tied to brand image cannot risk the failure of making the "worst wave ever" for fear of long term loss of brand value. Then I thought, well why not make a secret version in the middle of nowhere and test it before releasing and then Kelly did that with WSL boss backing so this was good. Big surfing money entered the wave pool world which helped spark even more investment. But at $30m to build and then another $20m minimum for land and other facilities and hotel and retail (it's really more like $100m) then these things will get built slowly for a while yet. Sure if the Olympic committee decided that one wave pool is clearly the best then 200 would get built (one per country) within 2 to 3 years for the next olympics but that's still not helping the millions in the existing surf countries. One wave pool development worth $50m or 250 Vwalls ??? which actually make 500 individual breaks! That's what we are now looking at. I just wish i worked it out 20 years ago.

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Jazz hands commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:24pm

Looks great Greg, definitely needed down here in South oz. Any news on the wave pool?

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 2:08pm

Yep I'll bet. and some shark nets too! wave pool going to be a bit longer yet in Orlando and jacksonville but big big splash when it happens. Slow is an understatement.

The Vwall business will help me to co-fund a prototype single channel linear wave pool on the land of the guy who's building the Vwall. (Mike Simm) It's his own private land so there is next to no DA since he's not initially commercialising it. So the Vwall directly helps prove the wave pool. Sure USA might build just before we build the pool, but it's something that I can at least influence. Once you licence another party then it's really up to them. You can't have stringent milestones on something that's very expensive and unproven.

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straddieman commented Friday, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:26pm

fuck I hope these take off then no-one will care about Kelly's wave that he built for himself. Surfing need more people like the Webber`s, trying to advance surfing for EVERYONE`s benefit. FUCK THE WSL, WCT whatever its called this year

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 1:42am

Love all those comments fellows and will answer specific questions in the am. Just watched “little dieter needs to fly” for the 20th time, If you ever get to think life is tiring sometimes, which it is, then watch that. He’s my inspiration to handle crap and one of very few humans to suffer hugely at the hands of others yet hold no bitterness whatsoever.

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factotum commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:10pm

Any Herzog fan is alright by me.

You're a bit of a Fitzcarraldo there yourself, comrade?

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 3:37pm

Thanks Factotum. Gees that's the Breaky of Champions author...???? forgotten his name somehow...Oh yeah Kurt V.

yeah what a mad master hertzog is. I feel like a mix of Strozek and the doctor in Strozek that's telling him about the primal grip instinct as a way of helping him to see life more simply. Like strozek when I look at clouds, and the doctor as I analyse what i was 'seeing'. Anyway thanks for the support amongst the bitchiness of the bitter types

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Spuddups commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 7:06am

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Winston Churchill

It's a much repeated quote, but the optimist part of it sums up people like Greg Webber quite nicely I reckon. Keep the ideas flowing Greg!

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:11pm

Winston was a cunt, but.

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 1:01pm

Thanks Spuddups, what a great quote hey. I got used to negative comments so early it's a joke. I even like the slight irritation it gives me and imagine the negative guys on this site all saying sorry mate, we were totally wrong

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Spuddups commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 6:42pm

The thing is that even if this idea doesn’t succeed it was still worth doing. If people weren’t prepared to take risks and try new stuff then we’d still be living in caves.

My brother spent five years on a PHD studying a potential cancer treatment involving a particular radioactive isotope. The result at the end was no, it doesn’t work. I asked him how he felt about it. He told me that although he would have been happier if he’d found a cure for cancer, at least now they know one more place not to look. Also they discovered a few things along the way that were unexpected and possibly helpful in other areas of medicine.

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simba commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 8:12am

Seems like the future of this idea hinges on how well it performs at Triggs beach and unlike the wavepool where you had a lot of nay sayers it seems on the swellnuts site you have a lot of positive feed back but unlike the wave pool where it was all go go but no news and still nothing, can you keep this project up to date on this site as it happens which im sure will be beneficial to you in the long run.

simba

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:01am

Thanks Simba, yeah will try to update or maybe once it’s started construction wise just keep it a secret until it’s pumping peaks and hen release. This time the funding is already there so I won’t need to keep promoting the thing.

SimonTheDude's picture
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SimonTheDude commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 9:32am

With the growth of the surfing culture we need more waves, we all know this. As a surfer I feel very hypercritical to say to people 'surfings the best feeling in the world, only a surfer knows the feeling but don't go out as its way too crowded and we don't need another kook in the water.' We might not say that but all thinking it. So thank you Webber family for trying to solve the issue.

Being raised in Bournemouth I know a little about wave deficiency emotions. So much we tried making an artificial reef costing millions and ultimately failed to make a lasting wave. I actually surfed it when it was new and just a meaty slab and quite fun but they put a slop at the front to try and make it more user friendly for beginners and fucked it up. So I thought about artificial waves a fair bit and thought you could design something like what your doing but on/or attached to a boat so you could move it to the best spot, or out of danger in to big a storms.

I also had a thought if you made a large wind resistant canopy in the surf zone with sides of about 50x50m that allowed the swell underneath would that cut out the wind affect on waves and make them clean and surfable. Would they still be choppy? Worth doing an experiment but potentially make waves surf able all-day everyday there's swell.

Also just dump Occys surf lake Plunger on ships around the coast of the ocean, can be that difficult or impractical,lol. If it made constructive waves you could get funding from all countries with coastline with rising sea level problems, boom.

Sorry rambled on but was encouraged by your free thinkers finger speech. PS if you want to employ me for these projects Im an Environmental Consultant living on the Sunshine Coast so I guess this was an interview too.

Many thanks

Simon Rixon

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:04am

All similar ideas to he things I’ve patented. Even swell making devices for river lakes and almost flat ocean beaches. Can you email me through the site and we can chat on the EIS side

griffolhb's picture
griffolhb's picture
griffolhb commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 10:11am

need one facing south for the mid north coast pronto!

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:09am

Totally. Imagine a huge batch of them just south of Ballina

Standingleft's picture
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Standingleft commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 10:21am

Popular thread! Hi Greg, I've often thought similar ideas but don't have your testicles to stand up and take the howl down. Check out the first Torquay 'daily photos' today with a super low tide you can see the bones of a local classic reef. There's not much to it! A 50m finger of rock can create a sweet surf. (Though narrow take-off zone means it's best surfed with just a few mates). It's definitely possible. I like the V of course more waves but you wouldn't have to join the two arms if it makes the whole process easier to just make a single straight arm. Power to you

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:13am

Yeah but it’s fun either disproving or deflecting or irritating the naysayers.
And as for he single wall that’s not exactly possible. On one hand it will just align perpendicularly to the swell and do nothing and on the other hand it’ll float upside down or at least sideways due to the buoyancy voids. You need the V shape for keeping the structure floating level and also for pointing straight into the swell for all swell directions

Salty98's picture
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Salty98 commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 10:40am

Now we are talking, forget wave pools this is the go.
All energy supplied from the the prefered source.
It could transform our shapeless waves at Middleton to Murray mouth where swell is not really the issue its shape.
We can have everything right winds swell direction ,period and can still be unsurfable.
Smart fella Webber.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:15am

You can see it clearly while others just don’t seem to. Thanks mate. And hey these things couldn’t be much simpler and some still can’t see anything but problems.

Standingleft's picture
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Standingleft commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 11:23am

Here's some Blue Sky for you Greg. How about a reef Dentist!? We all know a reef that's missing a few teeth or it needs fillings to connect the pieces of natural reef into a full set of gleaming dentures (Chopes?). Augmented reef

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:27am

Will have a think. Not easy to do physically and oh my god we are touching nature so that’s going to freak people out. So ignoring them, at first thought is that it’s exactly like what you said, a male reverse of the female dents and hollows. (That’s mold talk not sex talk people!) Youd need to scan the entire surface on a flat day at the lowest tide possible so that at least half of it is above water. Then this scan gets reversed and a series of molds are made in let’s say 3m x 5m sections. Then concrete is sprayed onto some mesh or micro fibres in the mix so that it’s strong enough and then bolt each unit into place. One at a time. You kill what’s underneath so that’s what’s gotto be sacrificed. Not that it wouldn't all grow back on the upper surface later. Shit you could even put grooves into the upper surface so that all the inter-tidal flora and fauna can grip onto it as though it was the same surface that’s now below. You could just do it in another country first, without the environmental sensitivity.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 12:35pm

Fitzroy 21 u following this ?

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 4:04pm

Hey udo, Read the article the other day, great idea, and have just skimmed the comments, been pretty busy. Anything in particular you are pointing out?

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 4:16pm

Just curious on your thoughts re 1 anchor pt
100 plus tons of floating concrete up against huge ocean forces....chain and anchor system will have to be huge ?

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:50am

And Fitzroy is right that it’s still doable but what’s not often considered is that the force required to push this shape backwards through the water is phenomenal while its blade like shape offers far less residence to the wave force sliding along it. You’d have to consider the inertia involved in pushing 4000 cubic meters of water. (quick calc: 50m long 40m base gives apx 1000 sqm within the triangle between the walls which are 4m underwater so that’s 4000 cubic meters) also we did 3 tests of 2m models with the vee reef in palmy swimming pool and had the things held by a rope. As a test to see how fast it would move backwards due to the waves we were hitting it with we then untied the rope. We hit with as big a waves as we could make, apx 3m waves by scale, and it didn’t budge a an inch but what we then tried to do was move it to another spot further away from the pool edge and my god you couldn’t move it backwards at all!! So I think the sliding diagonal forces of one wave at a time running along the edges will in no way be able to budge the entire unit. Each wave glances the wall at a 22.5 degree angle and delivered over 8 to 10 seconds, so there is no impact like a square on structure. It is a moderate to low force being countered by the mass of water behind it. Yes it’ll be anchored like a large container vessel but that’s going to be more than enough.

user's picture
user's picture
user commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 8:01am

you said you hit it with scaled 3m waves and it didn't budge an inch. thats because as you know swell cycle in circles, the water does not actually move with swell, thats why it will not face the swell on anchor. it will face the current or sweep and as all surfers know there is always side current on open beaches and thats the way it will face on anchor . unless the wind it stronger than the current and it swing in to the wind. better do some more tank testing and add current and wind

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 4:28pm

Yes, would definitely need solid anchoring but depending on the displaced weight, it wouldn't be ridiculous. Anchoring of fully laden cargo vessels aren't overly extensive albeit they are more slimline to this setup. There would need to be some sort of contingency for major storm/swell events though. But that would be an exception to the norm.
I'd love to see the one setup well offshore where you could bring your boat into the leeward "harbour", tie off and go for a surf!!

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:52am

Contingency for big swells is fold the arms back (with the hinged versions) and if need be tow further out and sink it to be refloated later.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 4:37pm

Greg -

How were you envisaging monetising this ?

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 11:00am

Leasing and selling due to property value increases. Check the bottom of the Vwall text on the website

https://webber-reefs.com/

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tango commented Saturday, 8 Jun 2019 at 10:12pm

I haven;t got time to read all the feed, but by the halfway mark I really didn;t get a sense that anyone understands/appreciates beach dynamics and the reasons that some beaches are naturally closeouts, some deliver A-frames and some are a mix. While the vessel/structure might be able to be sunk at depth and re-established in position, that doesn't address the issues which might arise and for which there is no bail-out mechanism other than the taxpayer.

I reckon crowd alleviation is a great aim, no question.

But I'd prefer to see this concept proceed through the risk-averse assessment process and get all the checks done so that we don't end up with a b-grade outcome just in case the theory doesn't translate to reality, which we know to be so often the case.

Could be a good idea for a pilot with some proper monitoring and data capture so that informed analysis happens. That means long term too.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 11:07am

I’d rather build a full scale model and just test it so long as it’s privately funded (which it is) can be tested in small waves first (we are not stupid) and can be removed easily (it’s really just a badly designed boat) if a few grains of sand arent where they should be.

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tango commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 2:12pm

Well I give you points for responding to all comments here, and wasn't suggesting you were stupid.
If it is privately funded, does that private funding extend to covering the full suite of potential impacts on public land and other users? Or is it just limited to the build and decommission?
I get that it's a badly-designed boat, but so was the Pasha Bulker. Well, maybe that's a bridge too far, but the point is that human error has a habit of kicking in despite the best efforts of everyone. And I note your approach re storms and move the thing.
A few grains of sand? Perhaps, but I'm not overly impressed that you sound a bit flippant about it. As you know, coastal processes move cubic metres pretty quickly which can then impact a range of other things pretty quickly. But as long as your insurance covers potential cock-ups it might be ok. I'm still interested to see your qualified coastal geomorph/hydro advice to support location, conditions, placement etc. Be good if you can publish a summary of that at some point.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:37am

I’m being flippant since there is nothing damaging about anchoring any large vessel between 50m and 100m offshore for half an hour. Once proven that it functions in terms of it wave making capacity then we are underway. Then the study will be done at full scale over a period of days or weeks until a sand build up begins. Then we move it to the side to extend the trial or remove it if there are concerns from the WA EPA who will be monitoring it. The fact that sand movements from broken 2’ waves over a period of half an hour could never do significant damage is why I’m irritated by overzealous environmentalists that catastrophise a scenario that hasn’t even been defined yet. We will publish the project management plan on the website in the next few days.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:53am

May i ask who the Engineers are for this V wall ?

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:05pm

Not sure yet. Preliminary design could be from Land and Marine who are expert in semi submersibles, (I've chatted to them on a number of occasions about the big Vreef) and then possibly up to Mike Simm's own engineers to draft up to full spec.

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sharkman commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 10:06am

OK I bite......so what size vessel do you propose ?

How do you manouver the wave platform into shallow water?
Do you already have permits to test the wave platform?
Does your promise of a "project management plan" in a couple of days mean a decade or more???
Have you heard of the new wave machine that actually generates it's own waves in flat water , and you can tow it anywhere....where there is deep flat water??
Are over zealous enviromentalists irritating you because they just don't understand that you are a stable genius?

x

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:19pm

No idea about vessel size, one that's big enough I guess, not needed for a year or so.
No permits applied for until the engineering plans are done and the project report presented. Yes the management plan will be done early to mid next week.
Nope haven't heard about it. I have two designs that will make waves in flat water, might patent them again soon. Both lapsed years ago which means they never became viewable publicly so I'll lodge them again just to drive everyone nuts.
They irritate me since I'm naturally impatient and their concerns are often way out of perspective. And it takes many many years to get things to market. eg certain life saving drugs that might have negligible side effects still have to go through a phenomenal level of testing and blind trials before being made publicly available, mainly to ward off law suits on the side effects. Sometimes it can take over ten years.

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tango commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 1:35pm

Depending on your anchorage and substrate there will likely be some kind of damage. If the damage is acceptable and able to be repaired then OK no big deal. Glad to hear EPA are involved.
Your irritations are beside the point. When you're publicly pushing a commercial concept which is going to have an impact on publicly owned natural resources you should expect scrutiny from all directions. That's hardly catastrophising, unless you're Peter Dutton.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:37pm

It's an anchor remember. Nothing but the same method that's been used for centuries, same old design as you see all over the world. You pull it up and the sand moves back into place. Have you ever heard of a vessel owner being sued for the damage that their anchor caused to the sand??
What on earth are you talking about? How is the sand under the waves considered a resource? See how you exaggerate the first point by talking about "damage" and then try to glorify the material by calling it a "resource" as though it's some precious material! It's sand, on a sand bank, and will not be taking one grain of it with us, when the trial is over. (if it passes then it stays)
The structure will of course have an effect on the sand movement which will be monitored by the WA branch of the EPA. But isn't there a need to limit and control coastal erosion all over the world? That's why the monitoring will be so vital to the commercial side as well since the same V shaped structures that can make great surfing waves at low angles between 45 and 60 degrees can also reflect waves back out to sea at anything more than 90 degrees. They have two really nice functions and I would think that it's obvious that we will use highly qualified engineers to design it and follow all of the protocols. What happens in Bali or the Philippines would be another story.

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quokka commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 1:25am

ETA on Trigg prototype?

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:40am

Hoping one year. Maybe just a little over that but if I am given a likely timeline that’s well over a year I’ll build one in Bali and have it tested in half the time. Not that it helps you if you live near there, which, with a name like quokka I’m guessing so.

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Optimist commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 6:08am

Dont forget to spray the structure with a concrete sealer. You don't want the steel to blow out. Steve at Xtroll in Brisbane would make you a big batch cheap.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:06am

For sure and thanks for the contact

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Finnbob the terror commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 7:52am

Maybe something like what you are talking about would be good at Portsea Pier.
Might be a better solution than the shit sandbags and rocks that are there now.
It would be an easy place to do maintenance and changes because of easy access and most days have no swell.
Some footage of Portsea pier with the latest large swell on the Mornington Peninsula
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFIDu2Dk82Y

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:09am

Sounds good and access a factor for maintenance for sure even though these will be launched from a slipway like a vessel. Hope we get one there

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truebluebasher commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 6:03pm

Qld anchored flotsam pioneers...(V wave would be right at home here).
1829 First & only ever surf raft export Causeway..
1894 Cruises to Green Island 'Eco Village'
1896 Lucinda Jetty (6kms) Contoured with the Earth (#1 Sth Hemisphere)
1930's Qld GC/ Beaches hosted WR Speed Races & Flights even shooting ranges.
1962 Shark Nets (60) + Drum lines (380) is considered largest program.
Qld also has record number ...(50-100) Anchored Swim Enclosures
1984 Abbot Point is soon the Largest Coal Port in the World
1986 GC Wavepool - First OZ large scale surfable wavepool.
1987 GC seaway Sand Bypass system was first in the World.
1988 World's largest Floating Hotel @ GBR (Was 4 x bigger than any today!)
1988 Gold Coast Spit tethered the Swan Airship (massive)
1989 Varsity Lakes - Mankind's greatest (built) Estuary (No shortage of Sharks)
Qld also has 3 man made 'landlocked' free-roaming Bull Shark Habitats
1998 Robina Lakes Floating (Hole in one) Golf Green
1999 Narrowneck Surf/Reef 1st of it's kind.
2006 First Oz Flow Wave GC
2007 First stand up surfboard riding in a Wave Pool GC.
2009 1st East Coast Desal Plant (Gold Coast)=(2 reefs)
Reefs
Surfers might find these [M.P] fish/dive reefs as akin to a WSR Surfing Reef.
Moreton 8 pack of all shapes Reef Series was a trade off for Moreton Marine Park.
https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/parks/moreton-bay/zoning/pdf/artificial-ree...

https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/parks/moreton-bay/zoning/trial_artificial_r...

Latest Barge is just as weird as Gregs & is but just one of 8 Moreton Artificial Reefs
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ne2r8f76xm87xa2/AACzT9kROfFsKKgYcYyIvv4Ka?dl=...

Great Sandy Artificial Reefs are again a similar project to a Surf Reef.
https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/parks/great-sandy-marine/artificial-reefs.html

2016 Parklakes-World's largest Residential Floating Wetland Islands
2016 Oz first wheel chair/Mat combo access for surfing GC
2018 Reef World- Australia's biggest Pontoon (H) + PO +(Subs) + waterslides +LG.
2019 SMP dedicates Largest CBD Oceanside Park
2019 South Straddie Big Bird -Oz most pimped out Buoy
2019 Palm Beach Artificial Reef. (Under Construction)

Add that GBR has several Test Pontoon structures changing all the time.

Considerations...Surely Greg's V is nowhere near the hassle of all those above?
Nets now gather pre Cyclone + Any elevated sea structure is a lightning risk!
[BEACH CLOSED] Is increasing & now applies to surfers whole for increased reason.

Qld #1 extreme storm insurance capital would demand quick & safe response.
Imagine the carnage if 'V wave' broke free upon a vulnerable at risk coastline...
tbb Notes: Greg has thoughtfully considered barge,pack up,sinking versions.

Qldurrs salute Greg for exhibiting Storm response front & centre.
Swellnetonians understand the cost in moving 'The V' could send an operator broke.
Greg knows that packing up is the hard yakka...This will make or break the deal.
Greg also mentioned he hasn't examined other projects as such...(For that reason!)

Qldurrs are happy to share our world best & worst examples for all to learn from.
Just sing out if crew need links to any of the above anchored/surf/float examples.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:43am

Wow what an effort, thanks for the list and viewpoint

Against CUBS's picture
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Against CUBS commented Sunday, 9 Jun 2019 at 10:44pm

Greg, your ideas / concepts / designs are indeed awesome and we all would like them to succeed. I guess after time though there are many of us asking just show us the reality as opposed to another ‘idea’. This is certainly not to criticize you but to merely state a fact that at some point entrepreneurs and/or inventors need to deliver not just create idea after idea. Respect intended and all the best for the wave pool and/or reef projects.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:53am

I’m fine with that criticism but with 5 patents needing to go to the PCT (patent cooperation treaty) phase all within 9 months some in only 6 months which will cost about $50k and then about $500,000 for the national phase (we will look for coverage in countries with no open ocean coastline since I have two mobile wave making devices that can be used to make swells to direct at Vreefs and Vwalls in lakes and rivers) then of course I cannot wait for the prototype to be proven before showing images explaining the principles and selling shares. That’s why. I’m a surfboard maker remember. Whoever gets in early pays the lowest price.

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sharkman commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 10:18am

so you need lotsa $'s just for PCT .....?
You already have 2 x wave making devices , pray tell where they are , who owns them , and without the wave making machines , does that mean there is no prototype?

x

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:52pm

Why prototype when they’re not needed yet. Rolling out bit by bit as funds allow.

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mezkal commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 5:42am

All very interesting. I've often wondered how hard would it be to have a custom dredge. Just a big old Warman pump with a suction line pulling sand out of an existing channel and building up a huge berm/ shallow finger of sand. It would be cheap as fuck and as long as the beach wasn't to exposed the banks should stay for a while. Fuck you could set one up with a few lads down the coast and just make your own secret banks everywhere!!...who's keen?? Yeeehaaarrr!! Just need a fitter, a sparky ...maybe a boily or diesel mech.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:57pm

If it could be done at night on a stretch of beach that has no houses to hear the machine. Load an excavator onto a truck, go down the nearby boat ramp and get working to create a mini sand spit from shore. Done over a ten hour hour period you’d probably move a few hundred tonnes. Two excavators would be great !! But the bust is significant.

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Reform commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:31pm

And the natural environment? C'mon, you’re kidding. That GW should even entertain a thought to dredge the ocean bed with all of its ramifications impacting ocean life,.....is quite uncool.

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tiger commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 6:40am

Greg in regards to the surface of the v wall that the waves strike, is it vertical or sloped? Most of the good wedging corners that I've encountered have usually had sloping rock formations that the oncoming waves ride up, then wash back down creating a side wave. Even rockwalls usually have a slope to them, being built wider at the bottom and then tapering upwards. Adjusting the angle of the V is going to be key, to make sure the bounce wave is coming across swell at the right angle. I'm thinking you'll end up with a pretty "pointy" Vee. Good luck with it. Heaps of potential, and who doesn't love a good wedge!

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 8:03pm

All breakwalls are tapered, due to the difficulty in making them vertically sided so there’s not many flat walls to compare to, but beyond a shadow of a doubt a vertical wall will reflect the wave more than any curve or angle. If there’s any whitewash then there’s a loss of energy.
And yep you’re dead right that the angles are key but it’s not like only one set angle will work. Anything between 20 and 30 degrees will work well. A 45 degree wall will send waves at 90 degrees to the swell which isn’t that useful but they do make wild distorted things that only body boarders can really attack. So if we make them adjustable then we can alter the angles whenever the locals feel like it. Whoever controls the Vwalls will want to keep the surfers happy since it equates to hype and excitement online and money or value for them as a developer. If it can be changed then that’s just more variety. The angle changes or any repositioning further out or to the left or right can be notified on a website that posts these actions in advance. Eg “ok surfers, in two days we are getting a 10 second period 2m swell and we are going for 27.5 degrees and we’re moving it another 30m out. This is going to make a wider reflection zone by nearly double and the side walls will be super wedgy”

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Sunnysideup commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 10:57am

Greg, thanks for continuing to push innovation and progression and having the patience and perseverance to push through all the BS bureaucracy and naysayers.

One observation I have is in regards to the best permanent beach break banks located on the Sunny Coast. This particular stretch of coast has consistently the best permanent (shifty) banks that break up the swells due a reef approximately 1-2 km offshore with an average depth of around 10-15m. The natural reef breaks up the swells and diffracts/refracts wave energy to create peaky A-frame peaks and a series of banks/rips over a 2km coastline stretch. North and south of this zone of influence is defined (year in and out) by your regular boring/surfer-less beach break straight handers.

Looking at your designs, as a thought, to save the impacts of wear and tear of being located within the high energy (and destructive) impact surf zone, perhaps the wedge could be anchored (or pier sunk) offshore out of the impact zone within a zone of influence to diffract/refract wave energy and create peaking wedges/A-frames when they hit the shore. Obviously the size/angles/depth/scale of the structure would be important to its success. The bigger the structure the further out to see it could be to create an inshore impact, versus a smaller structure say 200-500m offshore to create a smaller zone of influence (at an affordable and manageable cost). During a cyclone it could still be folded and dropped to the bottom of the ocean etc as well.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 8:19pm

Good on you. Exactly right. You lose one thing but gain a lot too. Bigger Vwalls further out can create a similar swell crossover that the sunny coast reef does, or the sand does 500m out from Dbah. But they are smaller reflected swells with far less wall length than the prime swell lines and so they will stretch out a lot over the greater distance and become quite small. But anything around 250m would be great. When you combine the smaller side swell with the prime wave only a few seconds after it’s been created, as is the case with a Vwall close to shore then the energy of the wedge is higher.

user's picture
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user commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 1:55pm

you said in your swimming pool tests you hit it with scaled 3m waves and it didn't budge. thats because as you know, the swell cycles in circles. the water does not actually move with swell. thats why it won't face the swell on anchor. it will face the current or sweep and as all surfers know, there's always side current on open beaches and thats the direction it will face on anchor.
unless the wind is stronger than the current and it will swing into the wind.
Also, I've towed and anchored enough vessels to know you're going to need a big and chain for anchoring it especially in a big onshore blow and a very powerful boat, probably a small Tug to move it.
so, in a big swell,
a / how and who is getting the anchor up?
b / who is going to sea in a big swell to tow it in a tug boat? think about bar crossings etc.
c / who is paying for all this?

uncle_leroy's picture
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uncle_leroy commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 2:08pm

Tax payer dollars.......
All destroyed in the first 30 knt blow

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 8:41pm

Well you might know about boats but you might not be considering what happens to the energy within the wave when it breaks or gets deflected. It’s irrelevant what’s happening with the circles of energy within the waves before they break, or before they strike a surface because they’re undergoing a significant change in shape as they break on the Vreef (the wave just threw out a lip and its exploding on the water in front of it) and a significant change of angle with the Vwall. Both forces are close to symmetrical on either side of each structure and are sufficient to dominate it’s alignment until the swells become totally insignificant and then wind and current will dominate.
And when we made the swell from a different angle in the pool tests, it pointed perpendicularly back into the swell over about 3 minutes which is probably an hour at full scale. So in those test it didn’t budge at all backwards but it did very slowly correct itself and realign to perpendicular.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 2:41pm

So greg , are you really a conman?

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:11pm

How many different names are you going to go by on this thread sharkman?? Or did you forget who you were today?

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 8:13am

seems my sharkman ID has disappeared , but as I comment on other forums under Brutus , and I have asked a lot of questions on BG as Brutus....why do you have a problem with ID's ?

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thermalben commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 3:50pm

'sharkman' last logged into Swellnet 1 day and 5 hours ago. The account is still active.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:01pm

No. I just have ideas that are a bit futuristic and not everyone wants to take risks. Why would the global boss of a division in Deloitte tell me that on one hand that all the patents together have the potential to create a trillion dollar industry (when you apply them all to coastal urban developments world wide) and then tell me, (when I was about to sell he and his associate shares in the parent company,) that they said don’t sell any of that to anyone at all, even us, it would be sacrilege, and that I should set up territory based licensing entities and sell stock in some of them. Kind of like franchising. So it would seem that in the view of some of the top minds in probably the biggest accounting and valuations firm in the world that the Vreef and Vwall are going to fucking huge. But don’t worry, one of them showed it all to some Silicon Valley hyper rich, and one or two didn’t really get it. So it’s not always obvious as to what might get huge. Like guessing how big smartphones might get in the future when there’s no such thing as a smart phone.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 8:19am

So you think you are not a conman , because you have futuristic ideas and not everyone wants to take risks.....????
so it's going to be huge , because some nameless accountants say so , and are already spruiking your idea for funding in silicon valley....hmmm sounds like a con to me?
So what have you actually accomplished with any of your ideas , can you name one success , or even one project that has incoming revenue ?

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:17pm

Hey Greg, just another one, time frame in the water and the issue of barnacles, marine growth etc? Will add to float weight etc over long periods in the water.

tubeshooter's picture
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tubeshooter commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 5:32pm

A couple of grommies with a snorkel/mask and a paint scraper each should do it.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:44pm

yeah why not!

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:05pm

Yes a factor for sure. I’m not sure of the density of seaweed, but probably very very close to water, but yes barnicles will weigh more than water and so over time they will sink a little. So a proportionate amount of water will get pumped out of the voids to counter it.

udo's picture
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udo commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:23pm

Greg any truth in the 1st comment on beachgrit that the USA wavepool has been canned and there are no plans for one to be built at that site in the future / comment by Marshall

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fitzroy-21 commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:46pm
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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:07pm

Not at all but the loganholme site was canned and Tunnel Vision are looking for new sites.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:45pm

Who's wavepool? Kelly's?

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kookfactor commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 3:50pm

Don't make it for the mass' in 2-4ft board carparks....too many punters out there already. Add SUPs, goatboats and a floatilla of shark biccys the place would be a circus. Put it where some 50ft runners lure hellmen from all over to get pitted or pitched and end up with major gravel rashes from a V wall wiping/out.

marcus's picture
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marcus commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:27pm

Lol yeah put i it at some beach break where standups can surf it

i remember the internet when it was just for inteligent people but.

morg's picture
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morg commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 8:01pm

Hey Greg I hope you can refine these to provide really good quality waves at average urban beaches.

WSL is having trouble getting dream tour sponsorship for some awesome locations, and it’d be ironic if you ended up leasing them to WSL so they can hold a few world class comps on quality waves at city beaches.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:31pm

Yes Morg that’s the plan. Ideally they would lease one Vreef in front of a prime tourist and prime swell location with many multiples of Vwalls adjoining it up and down the beach for the average surfer to go out and have a slash between their favourite surfers heats. Then they all remain moored in position after the yearly event so that local, state and national events could take place in the interim.

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marcus commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:28pm

Newtons third law of pysics anyone?
The things going to wobble and move all over the place

i remember the internet when it was just for inteligent people but.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 10:07pm

Oh yeah one of the head engineers at Land and marine said the Vreef will be incredibly stable. Anyway to help you see it more clearly and anyone else whose persevering with my explanations: Imagine you’re a giant and the 400m long Vreef is floating in flat water with 90% of it underwater and you’re trying to lift the tip of the thing upwards. If it’s on dry land then you’re just lifting the mass of a heavy thing from the tip. But in water your are also trying to lift all of the water that’s underneath the structure. Just like the resistance you feel if your board is deck down on top of the water and you try to pull it up evenly from both rails at the same time, it feels like the board has been sucked down onto the water. It’s the same effect. The Vreef and the Vwall create relatively still bodies of water between their arms and this is where the stability comes from. They can be moved very slowly but no wave travelling at 8 to 10 meters per second will budge them. Just like comparing a tug boat ramming a cargo ship at 30 knots or taking 5 mins at full throttle with a rope. The water doesn’t want to move out of the way quickly. The inertia to resist is huge.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 10 Jun 2019 at 9:43pm

Want to put some money on it? I’ve made scale models big enough to realise that these things are incredibly stable. The Vreef is being held in place by the stationery water that it has created within it’s arms. It’s keeping it from pitching to a huge degree, and secondly, they are built at scales that negate swells merely by making sure that more than 2.5 swells are under the structure at all times. If swells bigger than that are forecast then it’s sunk to the seabed like a submarine. Once every few years. The Vwall doesn’t feel the waves much either because 1. it’s not very buoyant at all, and 2. because it’s like a blade in the water and there’s more force sideways from the waves being reflected than up and down die to the blade like shape and 3. The wave will have very little up and down effect since the wave can hardly get underneath the structure anyway. That’s why they are positioned just near enough to the break zone, so that less than a meter of water is between the bottom of the Vwall and the seabed.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 9:19am

yeah I'll put some $'s and back up my mouth , how much would you like to wager??
Can you send us the vision of your modelling ?
Had an engineer look at your claims of cost/viability and could a floating reef work....he's still lying on the ground in stitches laughing out how gullible surfers are!

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 8:48am

Want to put some money on it.......Got a $ figure you like to put up Greg ?

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:51pm

Sure, which comment? To disprove Mr Marcus's comment that the Vreef is going to wobble all over the place?

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 10:55am

Thanx for reply Greg... list of Qld sea/surf utilities is posted as a learning tool for all.

Vwall can only be placed where the environment affords or benefits from it.
Note: The enviro wishwash for those above Marine Park Reefs (Right or Wrong)
I firmly believe the Vwall has merit serving as environmental prop as envisaged.

In other words a Surfbreak that both defends & restocks the Beach where needed.
Sadly very few Qld Anchorages pass stringent Govt testing.
Qld Govt Shark nets breach all enviro concerns to recently expand the program.
GCCC Sand Pumping wipes out 'Forage Fish' habitat.(Small whitewater > shore fish)

Next to no Gold Coast Hi rise resorts front an engineered Groyne or Jetty outlook.
Most visitors pay extra to avoid a 'heavily engineered eyesore' at the front door.
Such larger structures are kept distant for safety concerns or for secure operation.
In fact many back onto reserves. Exception being Mini dry wall Groynes.

Current Resorts favour Swim Pools not noisy "Theme Park / Precinct Wave Pools".
Note: WA residents protested mainly on 'repetitive unnatural' wave noise as Vwall.
Believe it or not we're not quite robotically fine tuned to the same sea shanty as yet.
Imagine repetitive waves in your sleep..."Wave after wave is driving me insane!"
WR coast long wave relaxation open air theatre ...One of us..One of us..One of us!
All sharing a couch at Psychiatrist with same dream all counting waves to sleep.

Developers are known to pay off councils for Flagged bathing reserves free of danger.
Gold Coast has 40+ Life Guard Towers add Nippers now commanding up to 500m.
Vwave would barely fit between Sets Of Flags come nipper season.
Imagine massive jetty rip pulling out just one nipper to be clawed from Dr No's cage.
SLSQ Jet ski patrols Coast Long Wavezone...Rescue detours would be unforgivable.

Now consider GCCC foreshore reclamation infrastructure such as reefs + sand banks.
Council will never risk Vwave interference to unhinge their pet projects.

Long lease fishing contractors depend on inshore fish runs every winter.
There leases run Coast Long & some days exhaust every centimetre of beach.
Local bypass of fish stock directly impacts the diet & health of our community.

Now if impossibly just one Vwave is slotted then what of the [Locals Only] Rule?
Who's to tell surfers to vacate their 100 yr hang out for Martian Vwave invasion.

My reasoning is that very few 'surf mad coastlines' can squeeze in a Vwall..
This sends the Vwall to no mans beach, where it will surely be less attractive to most.

It seems commercial approval must be exhibited as a multi tasking problem solver.
Council's winning recipe is a ' Wave modelled/Beach Nourishing Dive Reef ' (Hmm!)

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:57pm

Both structures can create perfect waves and protect the shoreline. If you can't see both of those factors completely and utterly superseding your list then we will just have to wait and see.

Sprout's picture
Sprout's picture
Sprout commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 12:32pm

A fool and his money...

kookfactor's picture
kookfactor's picture
kookfactor commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 1:11pm

After my latest beachcombing for plastics...any chance of including a sieve/strainer for that shit.....I'm serious as that shit isn't going away any time soon and may actually increase in levels.
Living hundreds of kms from a main city, many kms from a main river tributary and no waste/dump within cooee I am deeply saddend by my findings on just 50mtrs of beach tideline. F;;kin sickening stuff.
While we're there why not produce some wave energy and strap on some solar panels/wind turbines to boot, just sayin.

uncle_leroy's picture
uncle_leroy's picture
uncle_leroy commented Tuesday, 11 Jun 2019 at 2:02pm

When on the hunt for crays, even a small swell with a bit of period it will throw you around on the bottom and into the back of caves. I can't see any structure surviving being sunken to the bottom on the pretence that it will eliminate damage from the breaking waves/seas above. It's just as rough/movement on the ocean floor as it is above during wild weather.

hillsintas's picture
hillsintas's picture
hillsintas commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 10:26am

Good luck with this new idea.
In one of your posts in this thread you mentioned JACKSONVILLE FLORIDA.
Is it now public knowledge what WWP has planned for the town?

factotum's picture
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factotum commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 9:41pm
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Wednesday, 12 Jun 2019 at 11:25pm

Maybe one day mobile reefs might be able able to stroll up to the car park when the swell gets nasty.
Rise of the machines...
https://vimeopro.com/vanoord/work-methods/video/54087999

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 2:26am

Nice work crew..factotum's link is now updated in Swellnet ."AIRWAVE"
https://www.swellnet.com/comment/579673

jackhorgan's picture
jackhorgan's picture
jackhorgan commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 9:21am

hey greg I support the idea but how strong will these be... what happens if a mega storm comes through and obliterates it.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 12:09pm

The one for Perth will probably never get much swell over 4 foot so it's not going to need to be angle adjustable. It's just two walls anything from 30m to 45m long at a 45 degree angle at the tip. 3m to 4m below water surface and anchored using stock standard methods.
Where waves are potentially on the storm size level as you've mentioned then the hinged versions are used where the sides can fold inwards to become parallel and so the front on syrface is only one meter wide, which is going to feel less than a 20th of the drag as it would feel if fully opened, Also can be towed out further if the waves are really massive and sunk to the seabed and re-floated later when the storm abates.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 9:36am

This reply is to Gregs comment up the page a bit....Put some money on it

So how about a wager on your under 100k build cost of a 50m Vwall are you confident enough to back it up ?

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 12:39pm

I'm not sure 100% sure on the $100k build, that's why it's called an estimate, but it's in the ball park for making it.
I did the figures on it and can post them again now. Then someone in the concrete business said the rate I used ($100/sqm) for the 150mm slab was for pouring on excavated ground and said that it would be 3 times that for all the formwork to make it, but we are not in any way making a super exact wall unit for tilt slab for making a building. It can be rough as dogs balls and can vary by up to 500mm and still work really well. Formwork needs to be accurate to plus or minus 5 to 10 millimetres over 50m length (maybe less) not plus or minus 500mm !!! This is where experts in their field have missed the actual objective and appear to be correct but in fact they are missing the original scope of works which is nothing like what they usually deal with.
It's only two walls joined together at the tip with a support wall between them.
You could make this on an existing concrete base with building plastic under it. It's only got to be roughly flat and roughly straight. wedge waves still work when there are boulders all over the place but roughly in a straight line, as well as rock ledges at headlands which can be even more rough.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 2:09pm

HA Ha Jesus farkin christ i cannot believe you replied with that
what a load of shit
Webber Wave Reefs obviously dont have an Engineer on there team..

brutus's picture
brutus's picture
brutus commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 1:54pm

haha , as if GW will answer you and make a bet...unless of course he cons some more $'s out some of the Mr Gullibles that comment here?

The question that needs to be answered " for a few seconds just imagine a bunch of people have given you a pile of money to build a wave pool, yet despite endless stories in the surf media over more than a decade and about a thousand fabulous looking illustrations, no such pool exists! Now imagine all those people suddenly twigging that their speculative investments have gone into the Never-Never!”.....how much has Greg spent of investors $'s and......???

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 2:46pm

Only 2 investors out of 53 have wanted to sell their shares.

When there is a risk due to no finished proof of concept but only the data and scientific feasibility statements from professors as well as high level perspectives on the value of the patented system then usually investors do so on the small chance that it might be something huge. They pay the lowest price and hope for a massive increase in equity. That's what all investors were fuelled by, the small chance of a huge return. Then as we did the R and D at two unis and in the field the likelihood of the system working got higher and higher. Then it became a matter of finding someone to build our much more complex wave making system that can totally customise waves since the wake we make is as variable as the wake behind a boat. This added a lot of time and the costs of that system is far higher than all of our rivals that can only make very simple changes to their swells. I can't wait to hear from you all when the first waves start breaking in the States. Or I'll guess you'll all be silent.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 4:17pm

just so you know Greg , a few of your former investors have contacted me behind the scenes , no more $'s left , no real engineering plans , lotsa $'s been spent by you and no sign of anything tangible on the business front , except you come on here soliciting investors with the same old stories /ideas/and investment opportunities......as I keep saying you are a conman!

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 8:33pm

Ok Maurice and your mates, did you bother to listen to what Dev Pathik from SFA said about the Webber wave pool technology? Did you? Is he a conman too? What level of research would they do before making such categorical statements.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 9:22am

Some of my mates were your once too......yeah read the blah blah , any actions at all ,?good ol Dev is trying to spruik your pool for investors ...how much money has he paid you and your "investors?"

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 2:55pm

Oh yeah the members do get updates from USA but as you might not know under a license agreement it is very rare to get full or even marginal access to the notes of any of the meetings that take place between the licensee and their potential clients or funding sources or engineering firm etc. One thing that did become public was the agreement between our USA licensee OSD (Ocean Sports developments) and SFA (Sports Facility Advisory) which is one of the biggest firms in America for preparing finance docs for the building and operations for large scale sports fields, arenas and stadiums.
Check the boss of SFA Dev Pathik talking about our technology and the current control system.
http://oceansportsdevelopment.com/video/

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 2:33pm

mate not sure what your deep issues are but that reply is exactly stating what the requirements are, we don't need to make something as flat as a billiard table and so the formwork required is minimal. Try to use your bitter simple mind to read what i just said. And yes we do have more than one engineer on the project.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 4:21pm

so what's the name of your engineer , can we interview him?

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 8:39pm

And let a bunch of depressed and nasty old surfers give them shit? No way. These people are not like you guys at all. Even when they build engineering masterpieces they prefer to stay out of the spotlight.

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brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 10:07am

Greg , the only reason you call me" a depressed nasty old surfer giving you shit" is because of your record to date in getting projects up and running is zero ! I ask a simple question about finding out who your engineer is , and once again you can't provide anything concrete...pardon the pun.....as I don't think you have an engineer for your new scam!

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fitzroy-21 commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 10:47am

I reckon it could only be done in SE Asia for that sort of price. The concrete alone would cost more than that in Aust, let alone the form work, steel and labor.
And for the doubters of concrete floating, its all about displacement, I have worked on a few concrete boats.

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 12:56pm

yes true even cheaper but just read above. No need for formwork, it has no need whatsoever to be accurate. Just needs to be strong, and one piece per wall to be joined later in the water since both will be fitted with the buoyancy voids before being slid into the water. This way we will have the two walls floating just above the water level since the voids will be filled with water to a higher level to achieve this. (temporary voids will be placed on the opposite side of the wall to the fixed ones so that each wall will float perpendicular to the water surface and only a few inches of the top edge above the water level. As the steel frame tip cap is attached, and the support frame between the walls, then air is pumped into the voids to add buoyancy to counter the weight of each structure. That's the only time a crane is needed to fit these parts. The fixing will be done from pontoons or barges. Once the two walls are joined the tanks are filled with air to get as much of it out of the water as possible for towing into place. Then once in place air is released and water pumped in until it's at the correct level, which can still be adjusted later. But there are other ways of doing it so this is what could make the construction and assembly not too hard.

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fitzroy-21 commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 1:58pm

Understood, I was talking more the cost with the V-Reef than the V-Wall. There would be more work associated with getting the gradient and flotation correct than the wall.

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 2:58pm

Oh got you. Yes way more to get balanced and probably with each arm made in sections and assembled in a dry dock and launched a big slipway

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 3:05pm

shit sorry mate, yep that is a bigger job to say the least but that will be designed in the lab using gradients initially taken from known gradients from the waves we know that diminish wave energy well. The fundamentals have been proven in scale model testing so there cannot be some unknown flaw. It's just a matter of dropping the outer edge down as low as it needs to be. Then the wave will think it's just running into a rock ledge out of deep water and throw. It's not complex in that sense. balancing the entire structure to float level and to handle the forces is of course another thing altogether but that's why we hope to use the engineering capacity of one of the best maritime engineering firms in the southern hemi, Land and Marine.

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hillsintas commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 11:55am

What do you do with witches?

17:03
- Crowd: A witch! A witch! A witch! We found a witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! We have found a witch. May we burn her?
- How do you know she is a witch
- She looks like one.
- Bring her forward.
- I'm not a witch! I'm not a witch !
- But you are dressed as one.
- They dressed me like this. - No, we didn't.
- And this isn't my nose. It's a false one.
- Well? - We did do the nose.
- The nose? - And the hat. But she is a witch !
- Did you dress her up like this? - No, no!
- Yes. A bit.
- She has got a wart.
- What makes you think she's a witch?
- She turned me into a newt!
- A newt?
- I got better.
- Burn her anyway!
- Quiet! Quiet!
- There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
- Are there? What are they? Tell us. - Do they hurt?
- Tell me, what do you do with witches?
- Burn them!
- And what do you burn, apart from witches?
- More witches! - Wood!
- So why do witches burn?
- 'Cause they're made of wood? - Good!
- How do we tell if she is made of wood? - Build a bridge out of her.
- But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
- Oh, yeah.
- Does wood sink in water?
- No, it floats. - Throw her into the pond!
- What also floats in water?
- Bread. - Apples.
- Very small rocks. - Cider! Great gravy.
- Cherries. Mud. - Churches.
- Lead. - A duck!
- Exactly.
- So, logically--
- If she weighs the same as a duck...
- she's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- A witch!
- A duck! A duck! - Here's a duck.
- We shaIl use my largest scales.
- Burn the witch !

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 2:32pm

"Well, now, uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I, wait until nightfall, and then leap out of the rabbit, taking the French by surprise -- not only by surprise, but totally unarmed!"

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 2:53pm

all time scene, and yes I'm a witch, or should I say warlock! Thanks Russ

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 1:56pm

nah I think the witch is better....a dark one who feeds off gullible peoples souls!

fad's picture
fad's picture
fad commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 12:09pm

Love it. Build it and we will come GW. Can already see myself strolling back along the arm to the top of the V to jump in and take my place in the lineup for a left or a right depending on how the mood takes me. Genius.

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 2:54pm

Thanks fad, yeah the jump offs will be fun.

andrew-pitt's picture
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andrew-pitt commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 6:32pm

Go for it Greg!
Fantastic proposal!

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 3:06pm

Thanks Andy!

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tubeshooter commented Thursday, 13 Jun 2019 at 7:57pm

GW,,,,you mention the Casuarina/Salt area as an example of having multiple setups. My first question on this would be, in bad weather, how long would it take to move that many structures to deeper waters and sunk , and where would you propose to sink them ? That area in particular would pose significant navigational obstruction issues , not only for general mariners but also for the commercial fishing industry. You'll have to keep the off the prawn trawl/spanner crab grounds , and well away from inshore reefs. That's not going to leave you a lot of room to move if you know the grounds offshore there..
Plus,, the glare just offshore from those reflective fucking windows at those developments {Salt in particlar } is annoying to say the least.. Early morning 'take offs' could be delayed due to safety concerns .
A lot of those residents don't surf and actually consider that stretch of sand their private bit of beach, they even pay for their own lifeguards and generally hate the sight of a fishing truck yet alone people who park in their street. Good luck there.
Not trying to be negative , just curious, as you mention that site in particular on your website.. cheers

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 3:31pm

All good points and if it happens at all then it might purely be in association with Surfing Australia as a means of offering better waves for their protégés. The other thing is that as property values rise after one one or two get added, then it's a totally different set of dynamics effecting attitudes and decision making. These things can be remotely controlled and have the arms folded in and then towed back out and just dropped to the sea bed as far out as the anchor was placed but in the opposite direction, ie if the anchor is 150m further out to sea than the tip of the vwall when being used for wave making, then it can be placed that distance further out from there the anchor is. All that's needed is to estimate the depth that is ideal to keep them from being moved, and then halve this distance from shore and then that's the rope and chain length required. Then it's a much smaller vessel with far fewer crew to get them safe. Hope that makes sense.
The alternative that we will be considering for some locations is actually to have them stay in position and act as swell deflectors for coastal erosion control. Then they would require substantial beefing up and no anchoring system but the use of a forward mounted piling like the Vreef. This would add significant cost but still be less than any permanent structures like breakwalls and seawalls that can pretty much never be removed.

guikeller's picture
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guikeller commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 10:23am

Great idea Greg, hope that you get one built sometime soon and that it works. I completely agree that we need more waves; any luck with the SA govt?

Also, I understand that there is no silver bullet and that the idea may not work in all locations. Where can we keep updated on the developments of it? Cheers, good luck!

wubba lubba dub dub

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 3:33pm

Thanks mate, haven't contacted them yet. Need the costings sorted first.

check the website for updates.

www.webber-reefs.com

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 6:11pm

Brutus what happened to all that be nice to one another Christian vomit you were blabbing on about on the podcasts?

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Monday, 17 Jun 2019 at 7:10pm

Way too many split personalities to the bitter and twisted old man............

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 1:25pm

haha , glad to see what an incredible judge of character you are !!

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 1:22pm

oh goofy , don't you like it when I call out someone that you are a fan of and show him to be a conman?

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 12:42pm

Here is a reply from Nick Carrol when someone asked what he thought of Webbers
Vwalls and Vreefs

i think they are nice drawings
i would strongly recommend against investing any money in any associated schemes

The fact is that there are huge,probably insurmountable barriers to such large scale interferance with coastlines, anywhere the use of such completely unrealised technology would make any sense whatsoever

Not only that as far as i know there is no evidence whatsoever that any of the ideas would work..it would take a lot of work and time [and money] testing prototypes to even get close to something that would cope with any coastlines essentially chaotic nature

I hugely like Webber and think he is a great surfboard designer, we go back a long way but i think the people who write stories about his ideas really need to fucking look closely at themselves...some of them have been pumping his wavepool ideas for over a decade without once questioning there lack of actual existence
Nor ever asking where the money has gone.

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 12:56pm

back in the day they would of said the same thing about michelangelo drawing inventions . The world would be pretty boring without lateral thinkers.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 8:17pm

Thanks Amb. Yeah his helicopter drawings probably drew all sorts of ridicule. I can’t wait to release my river turbine at some point in the future. I’m sure it’ll get panned. Who cares if it can actually generate huge amounts of electricity without damming any rivers and without making one mole of CO2. If the drawings look too good then it’ll receive the same inane criticism.

helmet-not-hose's picture
helmet-not-hose's picture
helmet-not-hose commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 4:11pm

Where did Nick say this? It's not on Coastalwatch or FB (that I can see)

heals's picture
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heals commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 7:28pm

It's written on a forum called realsurf.com but it's in a private part of the website and Nick is now upset that Udo lifted it from there and copied it here. Then again, Nick wrote something about Greg Webber in a public part of the same website yesterday.

"Nothing is more tragic than seeing people flock to the latest fantasy drawing, only to (thankfully) forget all about it, until the next fantasy drawing.

These people who happily write about the latest fantasy drawing on some surf website or other. Have they ever allowed reality to impinge on the fantasy? Have they even considered the huge barriers to any kind of alteration of the coastline, anywhere the rule of law actually holds sway? Do they ever dig around to find out how much money has been invested by fairly normal, hopeful but not super investment savvy surfers in these fantasies? And how those investments are secured?

fuschia I am tempted to go dig around and find out."

Anyone who's posted something positive in this thread is being held in contempt and called a "tragic" by the self-styled doyen of australian surfing.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 8:57pm

Sorry Nick and all the people who support this negative approach, but none of you are expert in any of the fields that are needed in order to pass judgment. From a scientific point of view nor from an investment or development perspective. None of you have a good idea about what’s involved, and it would take me about 8 hours to explain a condensed version of why it’s taken so long and yet why the pool and Vwall and Vreef will work. So do I invite nick to meet one day soon and record the whole explanation and dialogue between us? Then have Nick say, “yep Greg is full of shit” or “ gees, Greg’s dead right, they will work and we will have more waves and they will make money and shareholders will be very happy” I
Might even bring in two of the Sydney based engineers and one of the top finance guys if they can be swayed. And maybe do a Skype with our usa licensee. But just have a think about why Dev Pathik from SFA. Would say what he said. It takes a lot of certainty to say what he said about our technology.

brutus's picture
brutus's picture
brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 10:18am

None of us is an expert , and you have certainly shown very little in the way of results , and that is the fact of the matter...
So you invite Nick and didn't invite me Greg , ouch , we could have chatted about the banana which never worked , or our days at Insight ...lotta stories there.......your surfing designs and how you "have the most advanced designs in the world" , or how your pool is going in Qld/USA, chatting to your Deloites boys and or engineers would be a great way to rebuild your credibility , for us nasty , depressed old surfers?

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 8:11pm

It’s funny to hear all the certainty in relation to rejecting the feasibility of something that’s not that easy to understand. Even with quite accurate images, and plan drawings and 2D animation and video explanations, many decent surfers, and some quite intelligent ones, who have seen all sorts of waves break on all sorts or gradients and reflect off all sorts of rock walls still can’t imagine how they will function. I thought my explanations would clarify it all quite well. And so then I thought the only argument would be whether we need them or not. But I can totally understand that the fuel behind the negatives is that I would dare to release anything new before the wave pool is up and running. Fair enough but after the delays in getting that animal actually built I thought it might be better to start now, so that when the number of surfers starts to increase from the pools then they have many other spots to surf other than the prime spots that are already crowded. That’s seems like a good idea to me.

icandig's picture
icandig's picture
icandig commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 9:17pm

Please Greg. Build it. Then we can all see it work....or not. Whatever you, me or anyone says about it matters not. Seeing is believing.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 10:18pm

It’s happening already. That’s why I went public. Engineering discussions have taken place and engineers expert in the design construction and deployment of semi submersibles are involved. So yes, that’s the idea.

brutus's picture
brutus's picture
brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 10:08am

So who are the engineers?

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 10:09pm

Concepts like this are all good in theory. I saw recently a where a harbour wall had been made of interlocking pieces that moved slightly and of a unique design and material that allowed sea life to attach and grow thereby benefiting the environment relative to say a traditional rock wall.

But as they say be careful for what you wish for. Plenty here are excited at the prospect of this idea in swell shadows but the environmental impacts can’t be ready fobbed off. There has been articles on Swellnet about a luxury cruise ship terminal off the Gold Coast, why not? Why should planning authorities discriminate against one form of recreation and favour others? Also, here in Victoria there are plans to permanently moor an LPG ship in Westernport Bay to act as a receiver and storage facility for LPG shipped in from overseas, all in a highly sensitive environment for sea life and endangered mangroves. Why would governments think twice in approving such proposals? Sorry to rain on the party but the environment must always come first in my book.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 18 Jun 2019 at 10:20pm

And if the same design makes waves and protects the environment and creates new habitats for sea life then is that ok?

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 9:19am

Maybe but only if the environmental gains were beyond doubt and that would take a lot of research and green tape and that required work will add significantly to your timelines and costs and forgive me but your more entrepreneur than environmentalist, that right?

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 10:41pm

sorry missed these ones.
Sure, that's what the studies are for. They have several functions and if making new habitats ends up being one of them then the surfaces can be modified to enhance the engagement between the the sea life and the structure. Certain patterns in relief have been shown to favour certain organisms as they mimic surfaces in nature.
I'm a mix of both I guess. But my overall perspective on life is way too much for this forum.

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 10:22am

how could it make new habitats if its constantltybeing towed in and out because of the swell?

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 11:26am

precisely, and I understand tugs like these cost $80,000 per day and you don't get to hire one just for the day ... no free ride here boys - cost of production and operation has to be reaaaaped somehow. FFS wake up.

By the way that's a humpback whale in the foreground and the photo was taken inside Westernport Bay where AGL wants to import and store LPG all because previous federal governments of all colours couldn't or wouldn't reserve some of our own gas for domestic use. Just goes to show how fucking stupid we are along with the power of the minerals lobby.

https://savewesternport.org

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udo commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 11:47am

Pic took me straight back to a Bad Manners song Scruffy the Huffy Cuffy Tug Boat
he he..

brutus's picture
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brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 2:10pm

How deep does it have to be for a tug??

Yeah the whole natural gas issue is a hoax....we are now getting big gas pressure fluctuations over here on the west coast , too many people have gas heaters....and when you read we have to ruin Westernport bay because no state or federal govt could work out how to pipe gas into Victoria , so now we have to import it , stupid /moronic corruption come to mind!!

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 10:43pm

Because it is the habitat. The things attaching to it or swimming under it won't care if it's in 3 meters of water or 10 meters of water. And I think I've solved the towing out issue anyway.

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truebluebasher commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 1:11am

As a child the foreshore beach surf sky sun as one totally free.
Now day after day 1,000 tractor trax to cross to gaze buoys ABC & D.
Our children only wish to be free in this glorified cage with you & me.
I swear it was only yesterday that natural connect of land sky sea.

If it guards & repairs beaches from storms but please not another prison cell.
All aboard beach bullies,wave pool water hogs for kamikaze surf safari to hell.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 10:46pm

They will only go in significant numbers where man has something like property to protect, or enhance and these places are totally developed anyway. Yes, it's a visual element that's not so attractive but the waves they will make might just justify it.

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hillsintas commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 7:55am

Greg said.............
"I can’t wait to release my river turbine at some point in the future. I’m sure it’ll get panned. Who cares if it can actually generate huge amounts of electricity without damming any rivers and without making one mole of CO2."

This type of knowledge is forbidden to us the sheep.
Tesla was taken out for his knowledge & patents.
Many other have trapped free energy using a variety of methods.
Many have died and many patents are now secret.

Walk carefully down the path of free energy......................

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 11:23pm

Thanks R.
That's why I would partner with them, I'm not an idealistic left winger, if you want massive change you need to win them over by giving higher profits and more growth. To do that you also need to support the energy hungry industries like Aluminium smelting by relocating to where the biggest rivers run. But then of course there is an environmental concern in other ways. If the profits are way higher since the power is way cheaper then it might happen. At about 9 megawatt hours per tonne of Aluminium, (apx $100/megawatt/hr and the aluminium oxide only costing a few hundred dollars per tonne then dropping the power will have a huge influence. But I could be off by these estimates. But you get the idea.

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hillsintas commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 10:47am

Same but different???????

https://www.okahinawave.com/

Comments welcome..........

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GuySmiley commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 11:22am

In these days of the commercialisation of all things always beware of anything that has the preface "eco".

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brutus commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 2:05pm

I was going to post this as one of my best friends invested 100 Euros into the project , so wow you can this anywhere where theres deep water and no swell......and its really really cheap , will save the surf world giving us more waves in locations lke the Mediterranean , Sydney harbour, inside the great barrier reef etc......will increase real estate prices by 10 trillion , save the ecosystems etc....

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 11:23pm

no idea how it works though.

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Blowin commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 11:31am

“Eco “ has referred to economics rather than ecology in most cases for about a decade.

It’s the personal economy of the owner of a guided “eco tour “ that the eco alluding to.

udo's picture
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udo commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 12:15pm

Greg you should have a chat with Trout
Mark Traucnieks Gold Coast surfer Engineer and all round nice bloke..likely to have been involved with Palmy reef project.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 11:25pm

sounds good. Can you give him my email ? [email protected]

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ron commented Wednesday, 19 Jun 2019 at 12:56pm

There's no way these will be allowed in most of the places surfers would want them.

So much of the coastal property is owned by people with money and influence that wouldn't want big concrete triangles scattered around there ocean views, surfers flocking to the area, parking etc etc. It can be heard enough building things on your own property these days. The red tape and hoops you would need to jump through to be able to tow one of these into position, anchor it, maintain it and prove its safe to people, the coast and wildlife would be almost more of a headache and time/money consuming than building a wave pool somewhere.

building a few pieces of concrete with a hinge would be about 1% of the shit you'd be dealing with. Thats in Australia. Bali and other areas will be a different story.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 11:29pm

we will see then. If a hundred properties are on the verge of falling into the sea then the motivation for 5 of these things might just be there. If 1000 are in the same precarious position as is the case on the danish north coast then I'm sure these movable structures will get a look in. They'll trial half a dozen and see what happens. Better then pumping tens of millions of tonnes of sand every year, and once built these thing protect the coast without continually using power and making more CO2.

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adam12 commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 1:41am

So I read all this thread, and the website and was struck by this:
"Property values are known to be much higher at prime surf locations around the world.It has been estimated that a two to three-fold increase in property values could be achieved through the location of just one of these man-made reef structures."
That right there is some world class bullshit and has me wanting a pro-tow not a banana board. Who's estimate is that? Is there any data to back up that claim? Is this a surfing reef or a real estate development? Or both? I understand these wish-dream
statements get included to entice councils and locals to support the idea but really Greg it is the kind of thing that makes the proposal appear to be a con. So I give you money to build one, what's my ROI? Estimated tripling of local property values? So unless I own property at the beach you set up a temporary structure on, or I am the local authority that benefits from increased levies then why would I invest? Can I charge for surfing there? Can I sell it to the Council or Government? How does an investor make money off it? I just think that while you have made some great surfboards and have great ideas that I'm sure could work, you need to up the detail and professionalism of your presentation/prospectus and stop the ridiculous claims about property values. Also, the videos of you pushing wakes in a pool add to the second rate presentation. I would also not be seeking private investors unless you can provide financials including ROI, you will end up in Court, and your website will form part of the brief against you. Anyway there are my thoughts, I wish you luck and credit you for taking all this on, inside the mind of Greg Webber must be a wild and exciting place to be but I think you spent too long looking at Clarence River boat wakes when you were young.

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Greg Webber commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 11:41pm

I had a chuckle at the end since you're Clarence river comment was pretty good. So do you think I'd make that claim of potentially a 3 fold increase without having at least discussed this with someone who knows? And I mean really knows. I was surprised at that potential increase too. I was offered by them a full analysis of the Webber Reefs IP, but it'll cost me about $60k, so I'll prioritise the patents for sure. So then, you don't like me making a claim about a potential value increase? remember what the word potential means? I never ever ctagirically state anywathing at all about an actual return but only say that IF we can make the waves that we expect to (whether wave pools or Vwalls) then such turnover might be possible. And as for the looking at waves in small scale in the lab or in half scale in the river, that's certainly the surfer side in me seeing a certain type of barrel, but it's in combination with the scientific analysis and modelling done by people with multiple degrees that's used to validate the method, so yeah I'm very confident that whatever I've presented will work almost exactly as depicted and described.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 12:14am

sorry I missed answering the bit about how the investor makes a return. Well the company that they've got shares in will lease, sell and possibly acquire equity in the developments that these things enhance.
Just imagine Casurina near Kingscliff. nearly 2000 properties. Close-outs virtually year round. Now imagine just one Vwall to start with.
Wedging waves both on sides whenever there is swell, which is often since it is rarely dead flat.
Sand will develop shoreward of the thing.
Swimming during small to moderate swells will be vastly safer immediately behind the Vwall, especially if they are 100m long.
Flags will be placed on the shore behind them.
A range of swimmers can now swim safely while a range of surfers paddle out easily in the no wave zone and have some fun.
Over weeks and months sea life will attach to the lower surfaces.
Fish will be attracted.
At the least, snorkelling will be possible, and maybe fishing if Kayaks are used, since outboards would be too dangerous, and flipping from the beach might snag swimmers.
Now imagine 20 of them. Making 40 wedging peak waves.
What will the 2000 properties now be worth???
Even 'IF' it's only $100k more per property than when it was just close outs and bad swimming and shit fishing, that's still 2000 x $100k.
Can you now see the potential? Did you multiply those two figures?
Even if they cost $1m each to build and install then it's a $20m investment to add and $200m value increase.
How often do you hear of a that kind of value increase for such a small investment.
Quite simply, waves are in huge demand.
The surf is overcrowded.
Swell is pretty regular but high quality waves are not accessible to the majority of surfers when it is good, but mainly just for the top surfers at each break.
For decades surfers have tried to get artificial reefs built but if nobody but surfers gain from them, then why will they get built.
You need money to be made from them for these kinds of projects to happen.

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adam12 commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 12:51am

Thanks for the reply Greg, I credit you for responding to me, and everyone. I can also see some logic in what you say. Mate, I really hope you get one of these projects up, and it works like you say. You could change the surfing world if you do. Sorry I had a bit of a go at you in that post, you are out there doing all this and I'm just a keyboard warrior. Good luck and good vibes to you Greg.

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ron commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 12:00pm

Property values at SOME prime surf locations are higher but theres more to it than wave quality alone. Its the views, natural landscape etc. The opposite of slabs of concrete floating in the water.

I am an every day surfer living about 500m from the beach with no view. If i can make the move to a more expensive house with a view there's no way i want to see these things floating around from my living room whether they make better waves or not.

They would need to be made so visible for boat safety reasons they would become eyesores. Flags, bright colours, flashing lights for night. No one is going to say yes please, put these everywhere.

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amb commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 1:51pm

Interesting a bit off topic but i have always wondered would southern Bali be as populated as it is now without the waves it has.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 8:50am

Good point, and probably not.

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 3:17pm

I couldn’t agree more. Yes the surrounding landscape and the headland itself adds so much to the demand for such locations and yes these half submerged concrete slabs will be as unattractive any breakwall, but you’re still hugely underestimating the value of great waves even if the structures making them have no aesthetic value. Look at Kirra. Nobody living in front of that would care about the look of the breakwall. If you found another Kirra in some far away land and you could buy a block of land right in front at twice the price of another block 20km away that was nothing but closeouts then you might consider it. You are also ignoring the feeling of just walking to really good waves and having 10 or 20 of them stretching for a few kilometres either side. Anyway you might not be interested but I think the majority of surfers will surf, and of they can afford it they will buy, wherever the waves are good and uncrowded. And although not helping the upper level aesthetics you can still value the underwater world that these things create. The habitat that these things will create will make for some fun diving and fishing.

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 12:58am

I think you would need to travel to a place where one was located, where the housing and values were similar, then catch a few really good wedges, have a really good surf, chat to the locals about the significant value increase that their house gained the moment the first swells started to reflect and wedge, and then talk to your GF or wife and ask her what she thinks. Or stay where you are and enjoy the nicer uninfluenced view and the closeouts. Up to you.

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truebluebasher commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 1:19pm

Whiteshoe Whiteboard World adorns fish'n'chip wrapperz & blows down the beach.
Whiteshoe www World rewrites history...

www... blurs whats real or not & rewrites history...

Greg's proposals seem innocent by not promoting anything but his idea.
That's to be applauded as Greg avoids damaging innocent 3rd party.
Like it or not this is 100% Greg & Associates...No one gets hurt!

In all honesty is that the best policy? In a business sense that seeks backers...likely not!
You see backdrops & Big Name Promos also appear as innocent in proposals.

Greg could spruik Tourist Icons/Maccas/Coke Billboards all seemingly innocent fun?

Iconic GC Whiteboard World backdrop features in many Surf entrepreneurs Plans.

Exhibit A: Breakwater CST spruiks...Margs/Angourie replicants for Pro Comps
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/4c95a12f2684106a74f2c61a93e59832?wid...

Exhibit B: Surf Lakes Resort Water Park spruiking a Wave Pool
https://www.surf-lakes.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Surf-Lakes-Pers...

As tbb proves GC lives with timeless whiteboards promoting evil as the norm.
These proposals thwarted beach groups pleading Hands Off case in Spit Master Plan.
How could one not see these surf proposals were a slap in the face to local surfers.

Think! One Google image search wipes out every cm of the spit in a split second.
www normalises Whiteshoe Whiteboards into every child's mind.
Resetting 100 fold ever micro second to multiply development mindset before birth.
Welcome to your overdeveloped world Son. DNA for the clean up roster...good lad!

Ask! Who on earth takes to the Air...cropping Hi-Rises for GC Central Park PostCard?
Never ever in the future of computing will that become normal...Who profits?
Build whatever shit and they will come (Job$ 4 oafs) All hail Adani.

Iconic (GC Central Park) also abuts #1 GC Waste Water Outfall.
Interesting as Council & Wave Pools can Filter Waste Water to Drinking Quality.

Council could filter Waste Water thru Wave Pools for cleanest ocean outfall.
Surf scientists could work on project to minimize micro fibre marine life wipeout.
In other words cost neutral Civic Wave Pools filtering Pacific Ocean's finest drop!
Sorta like Lil Lisa's Slurry in reverse.

We know Papers have been written on River Waves for estuarine rejuvenation.
Soon if not here wave developments for coastline health & surf bank repair.

tbb tip: To save most marine life flick fibre from clothes prior to washing...too easy.
Sure the obvious plastic waste kills but never as much as processed unseen slurry.

tbb is saying not one Whitshoe Whiteboard has come close to a better way.
Equally to what most here desire for the health of their kids & marine life.

Clearly shitty backdrop proposals are faking actual images of our environment.
This brainwashes our kids into thinking destruction of our coastline is the new norm.

Again! I commend Greg for not selling out...We all know this could be way worse!
Let it stand on merit alone...the old school way. No harm in dreaming...Surely!

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Greg Webber commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 3:22pm

Tbb you are impossible to reply to. That’s a complement.

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philosurphizing... commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 4:06pm

Gidday Greg
I have a question regarding Tunnel Visions approved surfing wave pool patent.
Patent number 2017268494
Inventor Joshua Robert Neale
Granted 27/11/2017
Are you aware of this and do they still have plans to build your design.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 14 Jul 2019 at 12:29pm

Yes, I am aware of it, and it depends on what claims have been accepted. The vast majority of it is not novel, and will be either anticipated by prior art including our original wave generating apparatus patent, or will be known by those expert in the field. In other words there are all manner of known engineering methods of moving things on tracks, the tensioning device is probably what they are wanting more than anything else. As for the other part of your question, I guess so.

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udo commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 4:18pm

More to it than a failed lease agreement...?
TBB its all yours..

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Adam71 commented Thursday, 20 Jun 2019 at 6:13pm

Greg Webber, Keep doing what you are doing mate. Innovation has a destination, procrastination has no destination. Nuff said!
I must say more, Freedom, speech & all.
There have been many posters, stating that GW is a conman, with his wave pools, now he has suggested Floating V reefs. Maybe just MAYBE he is trying to look after the Crowd ing problems that exist, Anyways, I don’t know Greg Webber personally, I have ridden one of his insite boards from the 90’s, I think people need to respect other people’s view. Happy days everyone & enjoy your surfing

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 14 Jul 2019 at 12:54pm

Thanks Adam, well it's to be expected that sort of criticism, and there are conmen on this planet so I guess that's what triggers part of their motivation, the other part is just not liking surfing to change, which I get, but the final aspect will no doubt be their own personal issues, and this is where they can't have spent more than a half a second wondering if these ideas of mine might actually be good for us all. Irrespective of anyone making money out of it all, surely many more waves is a good idea. As it turns out one Australian university has approached me to develop at least three of the patented designs with a start on the Vwall to take place as soon as next month. A government grant is available on a dollar for dollar arrangement. This is why I was wanting to sell shares to help fund my side of it. As it turns out existing investors and shareholders in Webber Wave Pools have come to me wanting to be involved in this venture as well. When the agreement between the Uni and myself is set then I'll publicise who it is. What's amazing is that they are offering a multi-disciplinary team which includes, oceanographers, engineers and economists so that not only can the designs be tested and perfected but the commercial viability can be determined. If the structures can not only make great waves, but also protect the coastline from erosion then the predicted value of these designs will be fucking huge. The hydrodynamics and stability of the Vwall in large waves was considered in our first meeting, and since then I had a think on how to make it almost unmovable at any size and modified the structure in a novel way to achieve that. The mooring system became secondary. And guess what? I worked it out by some lateral mechanical thoughts and two observations in nature. Here's a hint, when you look at leaves flying across the ground on a road or path, 99% will just go flying, but there will be the odd one which is totally glued to the surface. And all it has is the exact shape that can't be moved. It is curved with it's pointed end into the wind and the bottom edge totally flush to the concrete. Same with one half of a bivalve when it aligns into the small waves that reach the shore, their pointed end facing the energy and the flat lower edge gripping the sand. The water going over it is like a massive tidal wave if you scaled it, and they just stay put until the back flow flips them. Anyway that's half of it.

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tubeshooter commented Sunday, 14 Jul 2019 at 6:55pm

The leaves blowing across the road is very zen ,
"bowing my head , I know I have a lot to learn from that leaf",,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hYAjNwHu20

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 1:15am

It's not meant to be zen but it is one of those seemingly magical things in nature that when explained loses a little of their mystique. Like the planets in our solar system that had just the right trajectory to find an orbit around our sun. Can you imagine how many objects flew off at an angle into space or got caught in the gravity and fell to earth. Only the ones at the perfect angle with the perfect mass and the perfect velocity at the perfect distance got trapped into an orbit. Same with the leaf, hundreds are curled too much or not enough. Only the ones that mimic a skin off a slice of orange and find their leading edge facing the wind will stay put.
same as if you sweep leaves on the deck, some just want to stay put for similar reasons. It's this kind of designing I start with to get the fundamental shape and relationships, and then go to the uni to model and assess and validate.

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truebluebasher commented Sunday, 14 Jul 2019 at 10:18am

Udo is a deadset shit stirrer! [tbb will tone it down for Sunday (G) version]

(Tunnel Vision > Greg's Wave Pool)
Unfortunately Logan Tourism Precinct was re-gazetted for Toll Road Connector
tbb is in no way saying the precinct was up-scaled to milk top shelf all round compo.
I can't imagine a Fed Govt style quango in Qld...anyway as long as we all pay it's cool!

Tunnel Vision (Compensation?) Qld Main Roads prefer like land swaps than payouts.
Tunnel Vision aimed for World Comp Quality Surf 'n' Skate Park...(Nothing less!)

[news]
PM ticks SEQ 32 Olympic bid & Logan is the first city out of the blocks.
Logan Olympic venue sits diagonally opposite Tourism Precinct 'wave park site'.
Hypothetically speaking (Doug Larsen Park) is like for like with bonus compo?
Venue hosts Olympic BMX + Skatepark & shortlisted for Whitewater Park.

Free add on Bike/Skate venue with AIS grants & power/water rebates for wave pool.
Tunnel Vision (Penny Skateboard's boss) may yet have landed on his feet.(We'll see!)

Whitewater savings + Hybrid Combo Flow waves could pioneer river surfing circuit.
Big & mean & fast as you like never ending changing ride...for Sups/crew ...Why not?

It's news to PM,Premier,Logan,Tunnel Vision,Greg & swellnet... right here, right now!
Only swellnet crew dips a toe into the deep end of everchanging wave pool world.
Should all Olympic sports share the same [M1] venue then next wave pool race is on.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 14 Jul 2019 at 12:55pm

Good work TBB, will reply later.

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kym Polkinghorne commented Tuesday, 6 Aug 2019 at 8:15pm

Will the V wall produce wedges? yes. Will the V Wall improve the surf on a close out beach ? yes most probably. But will it look like the V wall in the picture ? No I seriously doubt it. The swell will bounce off the V wall and then meet up with the swell on the breaking zone to create a wedge which will be random depending on the type of beach.
So random wedging waves that will probably go 20 to 50 m ? and good for boogers and pros.
Still better than nothing.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 7 Aug 2019 at 8:03am

OK Kym, not a bad comment,
1. The sites that they will tend to work best right off the mark are parallel close out banks where the wedge waves running sideways will now peel along the straight bank, that would otherwise have been a closeout.

2. yes initially when the Vwalls are placed just outside the more randomly positioned sand banks then the reflected waves may not align perfectly but of course the Vwall will be positioned to best align with whatever banks are there.
3. Then, as the sand builds up in the lee of the Vwall, just as it would behind a small island, sand banks will form shoreward of, and to the sides of the Vwall.
The Vwall will make it's own sand banks within weeks or months. That's an inherent part of the design. And as swell directions change around over the days and weeks, the captured sand will smoothen out either side. Yes it will vary a bit, but for fuck's sake isn't that part of the fun?

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 7 Aug 2019 at 8:12am

QUICK UPDATE
We have just applied (31st July 19) for a government grant with the SeaCities group at Griffith uni after they approached Webber Reefs to do the research and computer modelling analysis on the Vwall. They have gradient data on a number of beaches on the Goldy and so they will use this existing data to model the effects on:
1. wave making for surfing
2. provision of safe swimming zones in the protected surf area shoreward of the Vwall
3. the effect of multiple Vwalls on decreasing coastal erosion from rideable surf.
4. The stabilising effect of a new undisclosed design element that will allow the Vwall to resist storm surf.
I will find out if the application is successful within a week or so, and if successful the research will start immediately!!

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kym Polkinghorne commented Wednesday, 7 Aug 2019 at 7:41pm

Greg. Thanks for your answer. Yes Its possible that sand could build up on at least one side of the vwall where the longshore drift catches it. Its not an island or groin though that goes to the seabed so thats the unkown in my mind . Is it also possible that you could get a rip channel running back out along the vwall as in some headlands ? . Dont get me wrong its definately worth trialing and Im sure it will improve the surf at close out straight beaches. Good on you for giving it a go

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kym Polkinghorne commented Wednesday, 7 Aug 2019 at 7:41pm

Greg. Thanks for your answer. Yes Its possible that sand could build up on at least one side of the vwall where the longshore drift catches it. Its not an island or groin though that goes to the seabed so thats the unkown in my mind . Is it also possible that you could get a rip channel running back out along the vwall as in some headlands ? . Dont get me wrong its definately worth trialing and Im sure it will improve the surf at close out straight beaches. Good on you for giving it a go

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 8:46am

Ok we can't be 100% certain but it's virtually guaranteed that when there is no wave action reaching the shoreline due to any obstruction to the waves then sand will build up behind it. What we have to compare to are islands or boats that are part of or sitting on the sea bed, or on the other side of the coin, floating things likes boats and pontoons that hardly block the swell at all since their draft is so small and their beam is big. As a result they go up and down with the swells. These Vwalls are unlike either form. They float but 75% of the structure is underwater and they are almost touching the sea bed. So they don't block 100% of the swell or water flow like an island but certainly won't go up and down like a boat. Nevertheless it is possible that when the ideal location is determined from several weeks of trials then it might just get sunk to the seabed and set in place so this acts as a rigid barrier. It'd lose the pivoting with swell direction changes but in some areas this is slight anyway.

amb's picture
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amb commented Thursday, 8 Aug 2019 at 10:06am

Thanks for the update Greg , i bet your pretty excited to get it rolling. All the best

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Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 1:32am

Thanks mate, yes just talking to highly educated people who are qualified in wave dynamics and coastal sand movement processes is definitely exciting. They would not have approached me if they didn't think these designs have some serious potential. I didn't call them up or write any emails. they saw the pic, read the rationale, watched the video explanations and then contacted me. Funny how many writers on this thread are questioning that these things will work when the truly expert minds in this field are highly confident of them working. It's just a matter of tuning the buoyancy and angles and proportions. Once the shape is sorted for the different functions then the material analysis will start.

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kym Polkinghorne commented Wednesday, 7 Aug 2019 at 10:54pm

Greg I just have an added question . You comment was "Then, as the sand builds up in the lee of the Vwall, just as it would behind a small island, sand banks will form shoreward of, and to the sides of the Vwall."
So I was wondering what island about the same size and distance from the shore does what your saying as an example ? and produce peeling waves ?
Sorry to bug you with the questions but Im trying to learn as much as I can about sandbanks and how they form. Im sure you and other people have thought about putting a fixed Vwall (seawall )the opposite way around in the shore zone about waist or head high deep area. This creates a wash out hole which results in a rip and channel with potential banks either side, then use a sand dredge to perfect the bank. of course this cant be done in Australia so thats why your floating idea is better for Aus.
Your thoughts ?
Thanks

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Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 1:43am

None will do exactly what this does. This doesn't touch the sea bed and so some flow will go under which will allow the sand that forms in the lee to be moved to the sides. There is certainly no wave action in the triangle that's immediately within the arms so this will create a buildup as well as the area shoreward. This sand will move to one side on one swell and to the other in the swells from the opposite direction. During long periods of one swell direction more sand will build up on the other side so the banks will not be identical, and one will be shorter and more of a peak while the other side will run more. It's not a wave pool, so things will change a lot, but in general, reflected swells will intersect with unreflected swells and form peaks.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Thursday, 8 Aug 2019 at 8:39am

Kym,

When sand builds up in the shoreline behind an obstruction it's called a salient. Sometimes they'll become a spit, grow in length, and reach the reef, island, or whatever it is that's absorbing the wave energy.

You can see very shallow salients shoreward of a shallow sandbank, or larger ones behind, say, Little Muttonbird Island at Coffs Harbour, or Broughton Island on the mid north coast.

The designers of the currently constructed Palm Beach Artifical Reef are hoping a salient builds up on the beach behind the reef. That's the primary purpose of that structure, beach nourishment, not surfing.

Any structure in the wave zone that absorbs more swell energy than the area surrounding it will cause a salient to grow and I expect Greg's V-Walls, irrespective of whether they work as surfing reefs, will do the same.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 1:33am

Thanks Stu, yes that's it.

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher commented Monday, 12 Aug 2019 at 7:40pm

Wave of the Day ~~~~^~~~~/(`~~~~/(C`...[ Greg )

swellnet crew congratulates Greg on his Sea Cities (Storm/Erosion) initiative...
To mark the occasion ...a reference of sorts to seal the deal....

Greg! You got one on the hook/Oz town is begging you to save their retreating beach.

6th Aug 2019...
https://www.facebook.com/pg/savestockobeach/posts/

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 1:35am

Once the Goldy gradients are used for the initial analysis then I'll suggest applying the stockton beach gradient to the same modelling. There may be some data on that already.

brutus's picture
brutus's picture
brutus commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 9:41am

oh Greg stop it , it's getting too sad.....soliciting $'s for investment still , you had "to sell 4 of your favourite boards to pay the accounting and IP costs for your wave pool,"....
As it turns out one Australian university has approached me to develop at least three of the patented designs with a start on the Vwall to take place as soon as next month. A government grant is available on a dollar for dollar arrangement. This is why I was wanting to sell shares to help fund my side of it. As it turns out existing investors and shareholders in Webber Wave Pools have come to me wanting to be involved in this venture as well. When the agreement between the Uni and myself is set then I'll publicise who it is. ...........
this seems to be part of your MO , unnamed partners ,offers , advice from the worlds biggest players.......but no engineers name, Deloittes reps name, now phantom contacts with a university ......what's the problem with naming a university so we can check and see if it's true?

philosurphizingkerching's picture
philosurphizingkerching's picture
philosurphizing... commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 11:49am

He mentioned the university further up the page.
Sea cities Griffith University.

brutus's picture
brutus's picture
brutus commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 6:16pm

shhhhhh he won't remember waht he said?

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher commented Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 5:52pm

philosurphizing refers to Griffith University at forefront of Oz coastline research.
https://www.griffith.edu.au/cities-research-institute/research/sea-cities

NCCARF also partners East "Coast Adapt"
https://www.nccarf.edu.au/content/coastal-tool-overview

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Thursday, 5 Sep 2019 at 5:54pm

Greg its been a few months any action...any links to Reef Eng plans ?