Brazil all over, for now

Stu Nettle
Swellnet Dispatch

Wanna take a quick look at the future of pro surfing?

A snapshot of the decade to come...except it's not the future at all, but a screenshot taken this morning. The future is now etc.

On the WSL website, under 'Events' is a drop down menu for the 'Men's Championship Tour', and when you click the button it's green and yellow all the way down the page - save for one plucky Southern Cross holding out against a sea of Order and Progress.

Brazil is flying 10 green and yellow flags from 11 events.

Yeah, it shouldn't be a surprise, the Brazilian Storm was forecast years ago, but it's still amazing to see how convincing their supremacy is. Especially when laid out like this.

Shield your eyes, diggers:

But if the new world order gets you down then howsabout setting the keyboard in the DeLorean to 1979 courtesy of Al Hunt and my dodgy Photoshop skillz?

Forty years ago it was mostly Australian flags from top to bottom - 10 from 13 events (see image below).

In fact if I chose 1981 then it woul'dve been Australia 10 from 11 - the same that Brazil has above - but synchronicity has the last say with me.

Beyond mere patriotism, the two images show how much everything shifts. Take a look at the venues: Japan once had 4 top tier events on a 13 contest tour, and in the decade that followed they, rather than Brazil, threatened to become the next surfing superpower.

Instead, Japan copped the 1-2 combo of the Asian financial crisis and the GFC, and by the time they were back on their feet surfing was passe. A peculiar sport for old folk in a land that's short on kids.

And would anyone in 1979 have predicted what was to come with Australia's slide and Brazil's rise? You still couldn't have guessed it in 1989, when not a single Brazilian won a CT. Even 1999, when yet another year passed without green and yellow on the dais.

The Brazilian Storm is sudden, unexpected, and intense.

The switch from Oz domination then to Brazilian domination now is undeniable, and a raft of theories have been proferred, but no single idea can explain it, though the one thing we can be sure of is that it'll all change again in the future. 

Anyway, there ain't nothing wrong with being the underdog.

Comments

garyg1412's picture
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garyg1412 commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 4:03pm

Stu
Your photoshop skills didn't extend to Shaun Tomson's country of origin flag. Might have to get onto that before the Political Correctors get onto you!!!

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 4:07pm

That's the OG South African flag. The one he won it under. Should I be posting the new RSA one?

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 4:28pm

I wanna know more about the Grog's Seaside Pro.

Sounds like native advertising at its finest.

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 5:37pm

This is their time?
Australians are more comfortable, riding more diverse craft? Higher coastal property prices locks out hungry working class kids?
I dunno, haven't been there, but is the focus in Brazil on high performance boards and is the tour the focal point?

goofyfoot's picture
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goofyfoot commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 7:12pm

I think it is VJ, only because there are no Brazilian free surfers.
That i know of anyway

Elliedog's picture
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Elliedog commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 6:01pm

I think Laurie towner summed up the relevance of the WSL perfectly earlier this week didn't he?.

Luba

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 6:42pm

Stu paints a sea of green but take a look overhead..
20 year Air Event history rarely features a Brazilian entrant let alone winner.

Brazilian Air invasion has them ruling the Skies.
Brazilian surfers now hat trick last 3 WSL (Global Air events).
Margs/Indo..Big Air - Filipe Toledo (Brazil)
Quicky France Airborne- Yago Dora (Brazil)
Quicky Goldy Airborne- Italo Ferreira (Brazil)

Might not sound like much but here's the message that it sends to challengers.
Upcoming Air events... doubles the dose with what Stu points out.

2019 Indo Air...Defending champ {Brazil Flag}
2019 France Airborne...Defending champ {Brazil Flag}

Next Oz Air Tour event...
2020 Quicky Goldy...Defending champ {Brazil Flag}

'World Aerial format' timely catapults Brazil above oldschool World Surfing stage.
WSL judges now reward non surf Airs over true surfing power carve barrel combo.

Air Asia Big Air pushes Airs in Oz comps. Now a necessary evil to surf high or lose.

Weet-Bix Grom:"Hey siss! Just tilt my WSL turtle shell ramp!"..."That's it, don't move!"

Terminal's picture
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Terminal commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 7:49pm

Maybe the Brazilian's are just hungrier for victory and prepared to work for it. Maybe pros from more developed countries have just grown up with it too good and less motivated as a result?

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 9:32pm

As Sru says it has to be a number of factors these are the ones which I am enamoured with: their backyard is full of rubbish beach beaks. No one goes to Brazil on a surf trip and they all seem to want to get out of there. Most fun on a close out = air. Combine this with an energetic, competitive, culture; an economy in the sewer with its mega corrupt polies and you have a perfect storm. Let’s just surf heaps and see if we can make a better life. They are also the second generation just like the Aussies were.

bukz's picture
bukz's picture
bukz commented Friday, 26 Apr 2019 at 9:41pm

Brazilian surf breaks are not as bad as you think.

Adam71's picture
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Adam71 commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 10:12pm

I would say it is a combination of factors, the Brazzos are hungry, ( good for them ) Australian surfers were the same back in the 70’s, early 80’s Bronzed Aussies, Bustin Down The Door ) Aussies had something to prove back in the day. As a lot of our pros came from humble or disadvantage beginnings. Brazil are a developing nation. A developing nation will breed competition. We aussies ruled for many years, then in the 90’s came the the phenom Slater, who had everything, Power, speed, innovative, timing, flow & finesse. Getting back to Brazilian surfing, I find a lot of the pros rip, but a few of them have crappy style, & a shitty attitude in the surf, but there is good & bad in all surfers. Personally I don’t like the flyboy air, I prefer the power. The reason being is a lot of the airs are a Hail Mary, & not precision. Been a long day at work lol

hamishbro's picture
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hamishbro commented Thursday, 18 Apr 2019 at 10:59pm

A couple of comments have already been made here which reflect my thinking, I think Adam71 here said it best. As bill Clinton said “It’s the economy, stupid!” Australia now is nothing like the Australia that bred our surfing golden era generation. We are rich and complacent and Facebook/instagram/YouTube (or gaming) addicted, and the working class lads that might be hungry enough to do well in a sport like surfing are living nowhere near the coast. They’re probably riding dirt bikes or maybe skateboarding somewhere in suburbia. If they are on the coast, they don’t have a whole schoolyard of peers egging then on, pushing them higher every time it breaks over 3 foot. Australia has changed. Coastal living is a luxury. Surfing is an establishment. The last generation of greats grew up in coolie as the sun was setting on the era of cheap real estate. Their homes were cheap, their dads were tradies at best, and the only thing to do after school was surf. That’s where Brazil is now. Cheap coastal living, a simple life, a very community orientated culture which means you don’t need to be wealthy to do okay. So what do you do? Surf surf surf. Australians are so financially aspirational now that if we are doing okay we still have to work harder and harder to pay for the next reno or the latest SUV, just to make sure we keep up. Some things may have changed for the better, but definitely not surfing.

yodai's picture
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yodai commented Friday, 19 Apr 2019 at 6:22am

Well reasoned.i live on Coast ,most people living here don’t even go to the beach.just want the postcode!
This plus other comments about wsl recognising airs as the future of surfing
Bullshit.bring back some power
Most if not every contest finishes in an afternoon where invariably wind turns onshore so what surfing was done earlier in the event gets tossed out while finalists go looking for ramps,
You see first heat of Medina at Goldie vs ryancal.every wave he just raced looking for the ramp.boring to eatch

Kim brent

bukz's picture
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bukz commented Friday, 26 Apr 2019 at 9:51pm

Medina, felipe, italo are all power surfers with strong rail game and will power hack it as required but when waves are shit the only way to score and win is going for airs.

rj-davey's picture
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rj-davey commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 8:00am

Bang on I reckon Hamish.

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Friday, 19 Apr 2019 at 1:29am

To add to Stu's 2018 WSL Comps +2018 Airs + 2018 Adaptive champions (m/f)
2018 (Brazilian) World Junior Champion + 2018 Triple Crown holder,
2018 (Brazilian) Mens / Womens Biggest wave record holders.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/30/sport/surfing-big-wave-awards-wsl-naz...
https://abc11.com/sports/brazilian-sets-womens-world-record-by-surfing-6...

'Brazilian Surf history' 1st 60 years (1920-80) Exclusive to swellnet

1920's Redwood Boards + Hollow Paddleboards thru the era.
1930 (Santos-Sao Paulo Coast) 3 Beach Bums shaped a plank (re: Pop' Mech' Mag)
1950's(early) Rio Kids built & surfed their "Doors to the church"
1950's Now Rio organisation has local beach carpenters tweaking "Door" designs.
1962 Ship Carpenter Moacyr improved hydrodynamics into manufactured surfboards
1964 Surfing Federation arises on the back of these wooden boards
1964 International Surfing visitor Oz Peter Troy with Fibreglass foam core board.
1965 Carioca Surfing Championship
1966 Rio Surfing Contest (Men + Women)
1960-70's Saquarema (Many surf Contests) One of 1st breaks outside of Rio.
1972 Carioca Pier Surf Comp (Pier removed in 1975) (Checkout 1972 Brazil Surfing)
Note: Boards style wave position all reflect era. (Proving Brazil was competitive then)
https://streetsmartbrazil.com/brazilian-culture-history-when-ipanema-had...
1970's 'Early Surfing at 'Guarda do Embau' (2016-WSR)
1970's Joaquina 1st surfers
1975 Renowned Fibreglass Surfboard Shapers
1976 Joaquina -Florianopolis (1st surf festival) + famous contest site continues
1976 Waimea 5000 IPS Pro event won by Brazilian
1976 Brazilian surfer competes in Hawaii Pipe Masters Final
1977 Brazilian surfer competes in Australia Stubbies
1978 Brazil IPS contest (Bans SA surfers)

Brazil history end...Now crossing continents to Oz

1979 Stu's Oz domination..
1979 The threshold of Oz made Surf Product World domination.
Leggies,Fluro light Wetties,Swap Single fin > Bonzas >Twinnies >Thrusters
Oz Skateboards were launching from Oz designed Skatebowls & ramps were rising.
We were so clever that nearly everything came in a packet with a free sticker

GC Japanese Golf Course/Beach Hi-Rise surf crew had arrived & return Comp culture.
Oz not welcoming as presented with anti Jap groups giving rise to one nation.
As Stu points out! Oz did expect more Japanese Surfers to swamp our breaks.

Oz domination was due to busting down doors as Oz women continue to do.
Now that our avenues are in the hands of others we retreat accordingly.

Brazilian Surfing is now 2nd only to football so now surfing is kicking goals.
The future has arrived for Brazilian Surfing in all shapes & form.
Brazil point out their secret is in Junior Surfing ranks...it's there for all to see.
Brazil has produced 8 World junior Boys Champs since 2000.(Twice as many as Oz)

Some criticize lack of Female Champs but that too will come (See Above)

Others criticize Brazil Air Game...but Airs are constrained by legropes in Surfing.
Imagine Surfers free to disengage board as skaters,snowboarders,skiers,windsurfers.
Note: traditional Brazil Capoeira is World's only freestyle aerial surf/beach dance.
Pretty clear the more freedom Brazil Surfers have the more they'll leave us behind.

tbb again offers up his (Barrel Rolls) to undermine the fleet footed Brazilians.
I doesn't seem like anyone's half serious either way.
Thanks again to Stu for a real eye opener...

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Friday, 19 Apr 2019 at 5:54am

I think that makes Julian the eye of the [email protected]€king storm!

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Friday, 19 Apr 2019 at 9:49am

The Brazilians I've met, associated with the tour guys, have been great people; kind, family oriented, valuing the kids, and friendly. From what I can gather, they have grouped together, helping share housing for the competitors (and a couple of situations I could relate to from uni days, haha, it was not the Ritz!), and of course being the support crew too.

One further point for Good Friday - they seem to have Faith. You will see in in the competitors, they may form the crucifix on their chest before a heat or after a heat victory and make a prayer. Ask the Lord and the Lord will deliver. Look at the ratings...

Nick Bone's picture
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Nick Bone commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 4:48pm

can I ask the lord for some cash?

I am the bone

Adam71's picture
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Adam71 commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 6:03pm

Hey, he will not answer

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 7:09pm

Actually when I was younger and stupid I used to drive my surveyors wagon around saying "I am a millionaire, I am a millionaire" - note this was not prayer to a being... And what happened was any animal with title to a house became a millionaire, and I still go out to work. I realised you have to be specific in what you ask for! The whole housing ponzi being the vehicle for achieving the outcome was completely unintended and I guess the universe has a sense of humour.

wallpaper's picture
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wallpaper commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 5:44pm

piss off

Adam71's picture
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Adam71 commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 6:04pm

Lol, why do people say piss off when they can piss on, same with the F off

Adam71's picture
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Adam71 commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 6:12pm

VJ, I agree with the first paragraph? Family are everything

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 7:03pm

OK that post was controversial, and of course it attracts atheists like moths to a flame. Take from it that family support is important, and take from it that although you don't have to believe, the Brazilians seem to, and they are kicking our arses.

For myself I'm actually not a churchman; tbh I'm not sure which Lord I'm talking to (Jesus? Krsna? Odin? Putting a mantra out to the universe?) but when shit has got heavy in my life, I've been delivered in miracle situations. Life and death stuff. That's good enough for me, your mileage may vary.

Adam71's picture
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Adam71 commented Sunday, 21 Apr 2019 at 10:35am

Not controversial at all, it’s all about respect, you are your own God, Lord etc, You are the one that chooses where to go in life & I am a proud Wiradjuri Man who lives near the coast, Go Figure

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Sunday, 21 Apr 2019 at 1:28pm

Cheers Adam, thanks. I'm really curious, do the Wiradjuri have anything in dreaming or ceremony (that can be shared) that may relate to ley lines or energy fields?

(I've found evidence of a similar rock carving all over the world and suspect a common understanding and communication between diverse groups of peoples way before current history and science currently gives credit for. Seen some of them myself.)

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memlasurf commented Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 2:35pm

You have to understand VJ that a lot of us had religion jammed down their throats and if you were very unlucky up the other end as well (just ask those who dealt with Big George). Religion seems to pray on the poorest and controls that group the best as they have zero other major things in their lives. The three big ones Christian, Islam and the Jews do it well. Brasil has nothing to believe in: their polies are mega corrupt, huge gap between rich and poor, the state as an entity to manage affairs has failed. I met a well educated Brasillian in Bali a couple of years ago. He said the place is a complete mess and really admired the way Australia could run a country (mind you Brasil is just a bit larger). There were no gold crosses, chains or Jesus tattoos on him. The retreat is back to the local community, family and guess who else is sniffing around, the church. They seem to follow it blindly unlike their European brethren who now know how to deal with them after centuries of corruption and hypocrisy. Summing up organised religion is a con and they are being conned.

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 3:45pm

Of course Memla, some of it sounds just so evil too, like tbb's story. Different from people finding their own understanding. When you mention the nation state as failing, that's a topic in itself, and I reckon what will come afterward will be a bit like castles of the middle ages, and city-states. I could make a point about who founded the places in the world currently regarded as "best run" but that would light another small fire in this thread, so I won't. I do see a few of the Brasilian tour surfers saying their prayers though.

memlasurf's picture
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memlasurf commented Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 3:52pm

Yes seems to be what comes around goes around and don't worry about lighting fires, they are good as we can all talk about it rather than blowing each other up which as been one of the great things about Australia - we can all whinge and it is OK.

bukz's picture
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bukz commented Friday, 26 Apr 2019 at 10:02pm

Most of the religious types in this generation that talk about Jesus and God are members of Protestant churches, not Catholic.

Sprout's picture
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Sprout commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 6:47am

How much does it cost to get on tour? Surely we're talking 6 figures flying around the world competing/free surfing new waves etc. before you make it to your first sponsor or the CT. I can't imagine the Brazzos on tour are favela kids?

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 8:17am

It's a good question.

As a bare minimum, you're on the road for at least two weeks per event, 11 events per year. Assuming 14 nights accomodation - which at almost every event would be considered 'premium' locations (and therefore lacking in cheap options), that's 154 nights at - what, $200 per night? - so there's $30,000 straight up. Of course, there'll be cheaper/dearer options depending on whether you bunk down with a couple of others, or prefer to stay on your own.

However you've also gotta stay somewhere else for the other 212 days of the year.. that may be rent/mortgage at standard costs of living. 

Then there's hire cars to get around, somewhere in the order of $80 per day - another $12K per year. 

And travelling like this always results in a lot more on-the-road meals which are much more expensive than doing a weekly grocery shop.

Of course there's the flights, which will be different for everyone depending on their home base and what they do between events, but assuming an average of $1.5K return per event, there's another $16.5K. 

I reckon the cheapest option (budget everything, travelling with two or three others) wouldn't get much change out of $40K all up, and I suppose the sky's the limit otherwise. But to travel comfortably, have your own car and your own accomodation, it'd have to be well over $100K. 

Plus the costs of the other 3/5 of the year on top too.

Bnkref's picture
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Bnkref commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 1:58pm

There was an article when the (tennis) Oz Open was on and where you need to be ranked to break even. Was surprising. Something like top 80 in the world. Thought with the money floating around tennis there’d be more than that.

Wonder if everyone on the CT breaks even?

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 2:36pm

Minimum prizemoney for the year - being eleven straight last place finishes - is $110,000, plus a $40,000 yearly contract from the WSL. Don't think anyone on the CT is struggling.

Deffenti's picture
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Deffenti commented Sunday, 21 Apr 2019 at 11:43am

Hmmm... I don't think your assumptions are right, Stu. For instance, there's a $2,000 entry fee for every WSL event. From what I can gather, just about everyone shares accommodation, cars and everything else that can be shared, except for the guys right at the top.

simba's picture
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simba commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 3:03pm

so $ 150,000.......better than i thought

simba

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 4:19pm

150K for finishing last in every event, I could do that.

Adam71's picture
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Adam71 commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 6:08pm

Sign me up for $150 grand, I will purposely come last lol

kookfactor's picture
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kookfactor commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 7:36pm

Gabe rips in all conditions just check back on his form at Cloudbreak and Chopes, the mans a genius...with JJF back on form and the new rookies I'm seeing a good challenge to the storm this year...can they end on a high? pressure system.

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher commented Saturday, 20 Apr 2019 at 9:21pm

Stu started digging now he's hit pay dirt.
More than uncovering a gold seam he hits the motherlode...'Cowabunga!'
Who else here knew half of this scam?

Top 5 Brazil Sports... Football,Capoeira,Jiu-Jitsu,Volley sports,Hand/Basket ball
Need a break........No other country boasts such wildly aerobic Top 5 sports.

What kid wouldn't want a rest from Brazil's exhausting pioneering Sports.
Along lazes White Trash Surfing...dead from the waist down offering easy money!
Consider 3 WSL contest wins makes you a (real) Millionaire in Brazil...(Gone Surfing)

Brazilian dominance of football & court sports is iconic worldwide .
Brazil's #1 Aquatic sport Surfing has now leaped into 2nd most popular sport?
Brazil Surfing can pack a beach of 20,000 & Medina a Town square
A closer look shows beachgoers near drowning or blocking footpaths...(Maxed out)

Can't get there from here!
Oddly! Brazil never ever watches Surfing on TV...so has Brazilian Surfing Peaked?
Surfing is fine out to sea just not in my lounge room thank you!

Concrete booted Surfers can't hide in a TV Arena with fully abled aerobic athletes.
Surfers could choose to unleash as aerobic surfing pioneers..."Wot's that then?"
As Stu points out...Why the fuck would they blow this lazy arse deal? ..."As he said!"

velocityjohnno's picture
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velocityjohnno commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 4:26pm

Not to mention catching Capybara. We have nothing as athletically demanding as this to prepare our tour hopefuls with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3t0gGKXH4

Wonderdog08's picture
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Wonderdog08 commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 8:08am

It’s a complete mystery.

I don’t buy the economic theory. Australia was wealthy in the 60s-80s, and being a certain level of wealth helps with getting on the tour. We don’t see any Indos yet because they can’t afford the CT.

The style and air complaints - Australians generally weren’t stylish compared to the Hawaiians or Californians. Tha Brazilians are just surfing faster than us.

One observation I have is that there seem to be very few young surfers in the water (in Sydney at least) compared to the 80s. When I grew up everyone in the water was under 25. Now I reckon the average age would be 50. Where have the young kids gone ? Maybe there are more options for them now.

Also the young kids don’t seem to have the level of agro that the older guys have.

Maybe it’s to do with young surfers from average wave locations like Sydney moving up to Lennox and the Gold Coast once they show potential.

I remeber Tom Carrol doing the opposite and moving to Bondi for 6 months to learn how to surf close outs. But the tour was different then.

Brickwalls's picture
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Brickwalls commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 9:52am

Ha! Is the WSL not just about selling T-shirts & Boardies? (& Jeeps)

Need a wow factor to do that. The balance could be restored if they reduced high scoring for skateboard moves. It is suposed to be surfing after all. So yes "Hail Mary" single move waves in shore dumps may end up being the order of the day.

By all means have a seperate Air/Expression session/event. BUT - Bring back surfing and genuing quality breaks like Cloudbreak - Airs are few and far between there.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 12:50pm

Over the weekend I was struck by the following thought and it dovetails into some of the observations above.

When I was younger my old man was a dead keen kayaker, and he got me into it too. I had my own li'l orange kayak and went in a lot of races. We used to travel around country NSW going to flat water races, or head down the Snowy Mountains for whitewater camping trips on the Goobagandra River.

For a fair few years that was his thing.

Yet kayaking never thrilled me, and if I think hard about why it's cos, yeah, surfing is more fun, but also because surfing had a culture that I connected with. It was renegade, irreverent, anti-establishment, while kayaking was none of those things.

The kayakers were mostly older blokes around my Dad's age, while the few younger ones were straight-laced and only it for the competition. I've just never put that much store in competition. Culture is far more important.

So it hit me over the weekend that the way young people see surfing now, is the way I saw kayaking then. Full of stubborn old guys taking up all the space, and the only way for young guys to express themselves is through the funnel of competition, and as the WSL keeps showing us, that's a cultural dead zone.

Not sure how to remedy that outside of knocking off all you surfers over 30 and going back to Year Zero.

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velocityjohnno commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 4:31pm

Very thought provoking Stu, the boys mentioned to me that for both surf and snow, they didn't want the competitive part of it at all. Even after winning boardercross events etc. So the Nature aspect it was. The part that isn't crowded with people, maybe breaks further away, bigger, more exposed; the tree runs off the resort - not everyone's "go-to".
Stuff like bushwalking, mountaineering and yes kayaks are an escape as well - full circle.

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shoredump commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 8:33pm

Interesting angle Stu, I buy it.
I once overheard a hot young girl who was filling up her car at the time, while talking to this guy, ask “does he surf or body board, cause body boarding is cooler”.
I always like to point out how generations carry their own “cool” with them into old age, and surfing could be ours. I mean, we aren’t all going to start frequenting bowls clubs in shorts and long socks anytime soon. Haha well I’m not

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ojackojacko commented Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 12:59pm

if you're right stu, keep the kids out of it and let natural attrition clear the line ups, i say. just hope i outlive all you bastards. no offence