A novel approach to an unsolvable issue. Separatism is an incredibly complex thing and no justice is done when it is simplified.

Maintaining a sense of unity over 17 000 distinctly unique islands, across hundreds of ethnic and linguistic groups, across 6 major religions and with a history of colonization, oppression, and violence is perhaps the biggest issue that Indonesia will ever face. How does a country so large and so segregated maintain a sense of being 'Indonesian'?

It is impossible for us as Australians to comprehend this, as we are still the colonizers - our unity comes from the fact that we stole the entirety of a continent in one fell swoop and called it a Commonwealth. Indonesia gained it's independence after 350 years of colonization, and for reasons of pragmatism became one nation.

Many of talked about the inevitable 'Balkanisation' of Indonesia, which has been held off in part by the fact that Indonesia has refused independence to Aceh and West Papua. If one goes, the other will too, and predictably more regions will follow. What would happen in Australia if Western Australia decided it could stand on it's own two feet and separated from Australia? What if Queensland followed suit? How would Canberra, and the international community react? It is not a simple issue by any means and there is no right or wrong answer.

The issue of West Papua (which, by the way, journalists can enter and have done for some time without any unusual difficulties) is one of unsanctioned violence, which should be dealt with internally with the backing of countries like Australia. Violent acts should not go unpunished, and that is also the case of attacks of Papuans on Javanese who migrated to the region decades ago. There are many in Indonesia, in politics the military and civil society, who deplore such violent acts and use lawful legal measures to punish such individuals. Indonesia is more capable than know-it-all Australians give it credit for.

The role of surfers is negligible. Raising awareness is one thing, but it should raise awareness about acts of violence and not about West Papuan sovereignty. That is a domestic matter and should be settled domestically also. Only in extreme cases should other nations ever tell another nation to hand over sovereignty of their country to separatist groups. Anyone who has been to East Timor since independence can attest to the fact that rapid independence brought about by means of outside assistance do not create sustainable and safe nations. And by no means should surfers refuse to travel to Indonesia based on the acts of lawless individuals in far off regions, though I understand the campaign does not encourage that.

Like I said, separatism is a complex domestic issue and should not be seen as a bandwagon to jump on to. Stop violence of all kinds, but leave the politics to Indonesia.

Absolutely. And it is good to see that awareness about the situation. I've traveled to West Papua years ago as a student on KKN (a program where graduates go to the provinces to work for 2 months post university)and saw the complexity of the issue. Many Papuans are pro-Indonesia, and many people in Papua are Javanese, Bugis, Minang etc. It is not just a province full of Papuans who want to be independent and that, I think, gets lost when the West try to portray what is happening. People have a tendency to run off with the latest save the world campaign (Kony 2012 for example) without even attempting to read into the issue and that kind of worries me with the WP debate.

But again, Joe's approach is great.

Could the Indigenous locals benefit from the tourist dollar?
Would a surfers rebuff have any real effect in Jakarta?
Do you believe in sanction or negotiation? Conflict or persuasion?
Is it better to bear witness or turn your back?

I hope Joe Jenkinson has asked all these questions of himself.

The real issue is the Indonesian military which still functions too often as a state within a state. The politicians cannot yet fully control it. In this context it is worth remembering that not only is Indonesia a very young country but it has only recently achieved a stable democratic system. Those of us who have been travelling there for decades know how much things have improved. There is much greater political freedom now as well as a booming economy.
The abuses of the military are being slowly brought under control but it could take another generation to fully reform. Until then they remain a threat to the civilian population and not only in West Papua. In Kupang, for example, the local government was eventually able to enforce a ban on the military wearing their uniforms in town as they were standing over the merchants and committing crimes with immunity. There was also a recent incident in which a group of soldiers broke into a civilian jail and murdered the man accused of killing their commander. Civil authorities are struggling to bring the offenders to justice. I haven't heard much about Aceh recently but given its history I would be surprised if the military there were functioning entirely by the book.
As far as the influence of surfing goes it is a drop in the ocean of the cultural, political and economic forces sweeping through the country. It's effects, beneficial or otherwise, tend to be local and limited. It wasn't surfing that turned Kuta into a city! I would definitely consider a West Papua trip. At worst it would irrelevant to the abuses that are occurring and at best, the presence of westerners can have a moderating influence.

Transmigration distorts the local picture dandandan - people are sponsored/assisted in relocating from overcrowded Java to West Papua to help "assimilate" towards a single Indonesian identity. Indonesia has policies that are strictly monitored in relation to employment of ethnic Javanese in West Papua where businesses are regulated to employ transmigrasi's and are audited to this effect. Private enterprise is often distorted in West Papua to favour the transmigrasi which the government views as "positive discrimination". The effect is the displacement of local people and business and unequal rights in their historical lands - including forced displacement from lands for mining and other ventures for new migrants.

One of the other noted effects is an eventual vote of West Papuans for independence would include recently located transmigrasi who are in favour of the Indonesian government assisting them with the "positive discrimination" and unlikely to vote in favour of independence.

cheeryohreally, as you point out Transmigrasi is essentially a political tool, but it is also linked to economic development. In that context I can't see independence working for West Papua even if a free and fair vote was allowed. Without Indonesia there is neither the capital nor the human resources to lift living standards. As well as that, historically, and even now, Indonesia can be considered as the Javanese Empire and empires cannot tolerate instability on their borders which is why they went in there, and East Timor, in the first place. Another unstable, badly administrated state dependent on international aid directly to our north is not exactly what Australia needs either.
At some point realpolitik has to come in to the picture. The future is that it will remain part of Indonesia and that it will develop rapidly, but almost certainly unfairly, economically. The best hope for the people living there is to keep up the international pressure on the central government to fully control the military and make some effort to fairly distribute the wealth generated. Neither process can reasonably be expected to be very successful in the short term. Sadly, all other available options seem even less satisfactory. Central control has always diminished with distance from Jakarta so, even with the full cooperation of the elected government, the violence and exploitation are not likely to end soon.

That disgusts me so much I want to join with "Victor Yeimo and the KNPB".

Why do not the Australian Government or even united Nations have a strong hold of all this happening?

Politics.

Go the KNPB.

Indonesian government and powers to be, are the most corrupt pieces of shit on this planet.

How dare they! I honestly think they don't know about anything else, except ripping people off. They are born and breed in this society like that and will never change.

I have known this for along time, been to east Timor a lot, my wife travelled to Roti 35 years ago, the indonesian government are disgusting pieces of shit. Good links to the KNPB, I seen the one on the 7.30 report and it fucked me off.

Go West Papua, I'm coming surfing there.

check out "strange birds in paradise" charlie hill smith docco about west pap.Scarey wake up for all of us.

The atrocities in West Papua do indeed sound horrific and symbolize the extreme end of a complex, ongoing issue. I wonder what surfers could do and not just by matter of degree i.e change would be marginal, but that we, as outsiders, even have a right to impose our will. Personally I'd feel more comfortable passing through, leaving only footsteps and none of the detritus from our own culture or beliefs. Western meddling has a lot to answer for.

Edmund Rice Centre Report on West Papua. Worth reading: http://www.erc.org.au/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=...

Extremely well said Dandandan and i totally agree.

Yep, ditto.

A long time ago I wrote a thesis on another self-determination movement in Indo. But the other end of the country - Aceh. Similar theme but quite a different situation with Papua, not the least being the ethnic and cultural differences between Melanesians and Javanese. Not any easier than those with Aceh, being more around religion and matters economic, but different.

I held the [deeply self-righteous] view back then that some magi from the UN should wave its wand and voila! fix the situation. Time and weary experience says otherwise. When the UN can't even agree on what to do in Syria, a bloody civil war being waged by psychopaths on both sides and now a proxy war between the US and Russia, there is no hope - none - that the international community can achieve anything good by meddling in a much more complex situation demanding a much more nuanced and subtle approach.

So I've come to agree with Dandaman's view that separatism is a domestic issue and not a bandwagon for outsiders to jump on. We of course should do our bit as individuals to stop violence of all kinds but I fully agree that we must leave Indonesian domestic politics for the Indonesians to sort out themselves.

To that end, we should support an Australian government that has policies that support a democratic national government in Indonesia. This includes seriously considering whether we should elect as our government a mob whose stated policy is for Australia to simply thumb its nose at a democratically-elected Indonesian government's stated wish to develop a cooperative regional policy and framework to deal with a refugee situation that affects both countries.

I'll second that whaaaat. Whatever the faults of the present government in terms of refugee policy they at least recognise the need to negotiate with Indonesia.

IMO the international community has every right to kick up a stink about the human rights issues anywhere in the world including west papua.

But jumping on the free west papua bandwagon, because the original population have a melanesian background rather than asian background, is no different to if the aboriginal population in Australia decided that they would like to separate maybe claim west Oz and NT, (or draw a line right across the middle)

Both will never happen because theres to much money in the ground in both areas.

Human rights - sure (although questions of universality still can't be agreed on by all of the players). Is self-determination a universal human right? What self-determination means or looks like will be different depending on who's asking the question and who's providing the answer.

Did you see the militant wing of the movement on the ABC news last night in their jungle camp with their rifles and bows and arrows? Anyone who encourages them to believe that some sort of armed rebellion can work is a fool.

IMO opinion, an international intervention is warranted where there are serious allegations of genocide (see http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/intellectual_life/west_papua_final... for a legal analysis). The intervention may not be in the form of securing independence, but at the very least it should prompt greater scrutiny of how West Papuans are treated in their own land.

Saying that, I understand that the right to self-determination is a fundamental principle of modern international law (see http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml).

In any case, it is good to see some discussion on West Papua. For far too long these people have suffered greatly in virtual silence.

Yeah Stu , BB and whaaat, great knowledge and interesting reading.

Stu in "69" act of free choice! was that when the Indonesian government made all the different elders in West Papua sign this, thru brutality.

mmmmmm....

A lot of Indonesian comments trying to obscure the colonization...

It started in 1936 when the Rockefellers had 60% of the Dutch company that discovered West Papua's gold and illegally hid the discovery from the Dutch; so when the Dutch began looking for the gold in 1959 the Rockefellers joined forces with Freeport director Robert Lovett. It was Lovett and fellow bonesman McGeorge Bundy with help of Ellsworth Bunker who manipulated President Kennedy into creating the New York Agreement.

Under the US deal the United Nations made West Papua a UN Trust territory and appointed Indonesia as the UN administrator of the colony, but the Secretary Generals have never told the UN Trusteeship Council about the UN decision General Assembly resolution 1752 (XVII).

The result is that Indonesia is still able to kill people and the US can mine West Papua because West Papua is caught in limbo until either the UN Secretary General, or a UN member submits an agenda item for the Trusteeship Council telling it about 1752 (XVII)... Paperwork can be deadly...

The "Act Of Free Choice" was a complete hoax and everyone involved knew it. The UN however, were unwilling to hold Indonesia to account over it. In many ways that remains the problem for those seeking independence; the international community may from time to time express mild diplomatic disapproval but the Indonesian government knows that they will not take any serious action.
In the present circumstances the most promising path towards ending the violence I think would be to negotiate some kind of agreement with Jakarta based on the acceptance of Indonesian sovereignty in exchange for greater autonomy. This is absolutely unfair on the indigenous Papuans but it is hard to see any realistic alternative particularly while fringe elements of the independence movement wage a pointless armed rebellion in border regions, the only effect of which is to encourage further abuses by the military.
I actually have a contact who was there in 1969 as a reporter for an international news agency. I haven't caught up with him for a while but If I can track him down his opinion of the present situation would be very interesting.

No Indonesia has no claim to West Papua which is why it has not made that claim at the UN or in the international courts since 1962; the hoax in 1969 is irrelevant because the UN did not view it as an act of self-determination or an expression by the Papuan people.

Indonesia wants the US and other nations to support talks on the basis of accepting the illegal political claim of Indonesian sovereignty.

West Papua is and has been an United Nations issue ever since the General Assembly made resolution 1752 (XVII) - its in the Charter of the United Nations, you can not un-do a Trusteeship once the Assembly has used article 85 of the Charter. West Papua remains a UN trust territory until it becomes a fellow member of the United Nations as stated in article 78 of the Charter.

All very well Andrew but what are the chances of anything being done at the UN, never mind actually making any difference on the ground. Close to zero for the foreseeable future I would think. If there is some realistic hope of independence it is a well kept diplomatic secret! I don't agree with Bob Carr about much but I think he was right when he said that anyone encouraging notions of independence was doing a disservice to the community.

Going by what you have said andrew!

Both USA and the Indonesians are "Money making hungry pigs" who have no respect for the original land owners?

Just certain US businessmen and the Indonesian Generals will happily rob and kill people for an extra buck; normal business people don't behave like that but for decades business people in Jakarta, San Franisco and New York have been making $billions each year exploiting West Papua.

Now that we know what the 1962 agreement actually was, and we know what is needed to resume the de-colonization process, it should be reasonably easy to get one of the UN members to tender the missing agenda item for the Trusteeship Council. Indonesia won't like it but it will have to remove its people from Papua.

The population of Indo Papua (ie. Papua and West Papua provinces) is now roughly 50/50 split between Papuans and non-Papuans. As such, de-colonisation seems near impossible. Surfing is one sector most likely to benefit the Papuan population. The only people I know remotely interested in creating surf tourism in W Papua are Papuans. I reckon supporting Papuan-run surfing businesses to make an honest buck is about as good as any of us can hope for....

I respect your optimism Andrew but I cannot agree that things are that simple.

Agreed, BB.

And one more thing. The word 'genocide' gets chucked around far too easily.

viz. This extract from the paper prepared for the Indonesia Human Rights Network posted by Tonka: "Although no single act or set of acts can be said to have constituted genocide, per se, and although the required intent cannot be as readily inferred as it was in the cases of the Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide, there can be little doubt that the Indonesian government has engaged in a systematic pattern of acts that has resulted in harm to and indeed the destruction of a substantial part of the indigenous population of West Papua."

Little doubt? Actually, there's a fair bit of doubt, both of the actual extent of the acts and, more particularly, of the Indonesian government's (as distinct from Kopassus') actual complicity.

Serious allegations demand equally serious evidence.

Finally, ALL human rights abuse and rapaciousness is bad. But Indonesia in the past decade has taken great steps away from its past. It efforts should be encouraged. Never forget history but don't ignore the present.

On that point, let's never forget how bloody this country's history is, too.

On a side note its disappointing and kinda weird to see swellnet giving publicity to surf explore, one week we are getting an article with concern for secret spots because of the # tag on Facebook, now we are getting an article that gives publicity to a guy who's sole goal it is to bring to light low key areas around the world and often exposes secret spots and does not even try to go about it tactfully and try to be vague, ive read articles where he basically names the area and location of waves that I know others have kept secret for years.

And why does he do it?....money?..twisted fame?

@andrewi - I tend to gravitate to your point of view. West Papua and New Caledonian Kanaks should be very much in Australians minds. if you want to have an example of an independent nation that is doing ok, of course with the help of Australia/NZ etc, is Vanuatu. I cannot believe that we would support Indonesian rule over West Papua for any good reason other than, as usual, the suits and their unrelenting pursuit of money and power. the Melanesians are a good people, with many (increasingly in our media) documented faults but independent thinking is not one. I contest the notion of free movement in the country with cameras by proper journalists. secessionist thinking about invaders no good? what was world war 2 about again? in our current 'free' environment, with the spying of government on its own citizens and the way we are being trained to respond to authority like dogs at heel (airport security, just driving your car anywhere these days) bringing corrupt governments to account and serve their populations rather than business monopoly agendas is more relevant than ever. We used to hear of Tibet far more before our oil barons needed to secure fuel in the middle east and China began buying our raw material to sell back to us. China and Russia should have been calling our agendas in the mid east to account, as we should be asking about Chechnya and Tibet. In short, glad West Papua it is at least being discussed and we need to very much care for our 'backyard'.

@ Stunet, There trip to an area of Indo in the pacific ocean, had at quite a few independent surfers/travellers and at least two of the highest profile Indo charter boat captains pissed off on Facebook, when surf explore, got back from the area and posted photos, off course any criticising comments were quickly deleted.

I dont think it was the photos of waves or story that people had a problem with, the area im taking about and west papua has appeared online and even in surf mag articles before but without naming locations or giving much away, it was the fact that they posted photos of pumping waves and basically said where it was and even included a photo on FB of the flight schedule, most were asking the question why? what does it achieve?

curious I personally messaged John and asked nicely and in a very civilised manner why the need to give so much info away and name the area/islands etc, why not just keep a bit of mystery?.

Anyway i got quite a rude reply, attacking and judging me personally, and painted a clear picture of himself as someone who thinks he is better than others and extremely, extremely arrogant.(just for the record, no i didn't bother responding in the same way, which i see pointless)

Anyway its beside the point that the guy is complete tool, the point was and im sure most surfers agree why spill the beans on a secret spot or low key area if there is no need too, especially as a surf journalist as surf journalist hold so much responsibility, to me its a real disrespect to others who do try to do the right thing.

Hey ID ,

If they are talking about a certain area that i think you are talking about , then pls PM me and advise of his FB address .. I personally will completely and utterly SPAM up his page until he loses the LUST for exposing where i think your talking of ........

PS , i hope some of these charter boat guys shut their mouth aswell ...... one said Pro , is walking a tight line also ......

Southey I just clicked on the Surf Explore link thing that's written in blue in the article up the top and it took me straight to the facebook page.

jumped the Gun .... Near but Far .... I understand the Boat Charter guys exasperation though . I'm Glad its " Their " secret .....
Thnks goof

@ Southey, I think I know the area and who you are talking about and the guy (didn't know he was pro, just thought he ripped) saw he is actually doing tours to the area.

Anyway in all fairness, all these areas we are talking about are traditional offseason Indo areas with a short season and are fickle swell wise compared to rest of Indo, plus there is plenty of other areas in Indo and similar areas like PNG, Philippines etc that work in off season, so even if these areas of Indo get exposure i think it will always be the last areas of Indo to get crowded.

Well fingers crossed as ive been meaning to get to these areas for years but haven't yet, but seen pics from guys who have.

ID , yeah , the right spots are hard to find on a large expanse of archipelago. ?

takes multiple trips to get anywhere " different " wired

PS . Goofy PM

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/coalition-again-at...

Cheers Southey pm'd you back

the idea that this tow back policy would work, even if we had Indonesia' cooperation, is pure fantasy. i'm not sure what world tony abbott and his mates live in, but it sure isn't reality.

@ Tonka, Why don't you think it would work?

Not a fan of abbot, but I personally think it would work, as your screwing the people smugglers over, your going to have a lot of very unhappy people wanting there money back, the people smugglers cant run and hide because they need to be known to refugees to get business, its a simple solution that IMO would work.

Indonesia will never let it happen though because they don't want the problem as have enough of there own problems, we have to give them an incentive to help?

Personally I think we should be increasing our intake of migrants from Indonesia (and other neighbouring countries) a swap deal similar to the malaysian thing would work, but to do this i guess Indonesia needs to sign the 1951 refugee convention thing, I did read they are to sign it in 2015 or something? but cant find anything online to back that up, so maybe its not true and don't see why they would anyway.

The reason that it won't work in stopping boats is demand.

It may end up getting us into an international court, though, for ignoring our maritime obligations such that people drown at sea being towed back or as a result of storms after our patrol boats cut them adrift in international waters.

Where we'd deserve to be.

So whats the answer?

Reframe the issues. Talk with the source countries. Set up in-country processing. Change the intake mix and criteria. Drop the hyperbole.

@ ID
I think this is somewhat of a hypothetical situation now but the policy has been that they would tow back boats if it is safe to do so. I imagine that the people smugglers would simply sabotage their boats such that it isn't safe to do so.

@Tonka, True they would, im sure we could give them a lift back to there departure point safely though.

@Whaaat, I think maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.

The problem is there really is no answer because we all play by a different set of rules, places like Indonesia and places where refugees are from play by there own rules and only care about there own, we made the huge mistake of letting the UN dictate what rules we must abide by and there nice and ideal but not realistic, so we get taking advantage of and our systems abused.

IMO in-country processing just encourages the problem as it plays right into the people smugglers hands, there job is to get people from Indo to OZ and if there mission is complete then there business thrives, everyone else is also happy as they have fulfilled the main mission to get to OZ.

The sad thing is that whole system also encourages refugees who also have $$$ to get here and others to abuse the system while those that don't have $$$ and are possibly much worse off are stuck back in places of trouble.

IMO the ideal situation would be to set up processing centres as close to the problem areas as possible, where cost are much cheaper and things can be assessed more easily and accurately, then to take a to the back of the line approach for anyone that try to enter Australia by any means plane or boat.

We can also only ever help so many people and the demand is always going to be much much more than we can help, IMO we need to take a by distance approach and give priority to neighbouring countries, just like in theory if everyone helped there neighbour the world would be a better place.

Absolutely tonka. No matter what a coaltion government decided it is the naval copmmander on the spot who will have to make the decision. The purpose of the policy is to turn back just enough boats, at enormous risk to those on bopard, to scare customers away from the people smugglers. As such it is an extreemely cynical policy that places little value on the lives of the refugees.
The only realistic solution is for Australia to recognise that a large number of genuine refugees are already in Indonesia and expand our capacity for both bringing them to Australia and integrating them into the community. If those being processed in Indonesia were rapidly obtaining refugee visas and being brought to Australia there would be no reason for them to go to people smugglers. As it is we ration our refugee intake to what the major parties consider to be "politically acceptable" levels. At the very least, out of respect for the difficulty and importance of the issue, the parties should stop playing politics and form a joint party committe to hammer out a long term policy acceptable to both sides.

"IMO the ideal situation would be to set up processing centres as close to the problem areas as possible, where cost are much cheaper and things can be assessed more easily and accurately, then to take a to the back of the line approach for anyone that try to enter Australia by any means plane or boat.

We can also only ever help so many people and the demand is always going to be much much more than we can help, IMO we need to take a by distance approach and give priority to neighbouring countries, just like in theory if everyone helped there neighbour the world would be a better place. "

Some valid points there @ID.

On the topic of refugees and linking the discussion back to West Papua, have a listen to Benny Wenda's story -

@Whaaat: In two simple lines you've managed to cover off the true direction policy discussion needs to take. The scaremongering and lack of empathy around this situation sickens me.

@indo

My bad: by in-country processing I meant UN-protected 'neutral zone' or 'safe sanctuary' refugee centres run by the Red Cross or other non-aligned NGO in the source countries themselves or as close as possible to the source countries.

the solution to the boat and refugee asylum seekers solution is simple: people and governments worldwide need to be the moderators and peacekeepers that this rapidly shrinking world need. it is a simplistic view, but nothing moves or grows on this planet by field, border, boat, or by electronic means without scrutiny. where is your passport? where's your tax file number? who's got the most satellites up there now? The largest criminal organisations have been governments in the past, and are government currently. Its pie in the sky dreaming I know, but until we (poor bastard citizens of the world) make governments accountable for how their constituents are treated, whether they reside in PNG, indo, east timor, sri Lanka, Russia, America (i.e., snowden) then we are all caught up in a filthy backwash. the governments of the world can make the biggest changes for the better, but are also responsible for the most reprehensible and shocking behaviour of all cartels now, and historically. Governments have and continue to commit more mass murders than any bikie or drug cartel organisations ever assembled. they are a disgrace to themselves and the nations they represent. until people responsible for the protection of basic freedoms are held to account no border or security team will ever be able to cope with the mass exodus from ridiculous and/or hopeless situation's and countries. Unliveable countries need to be held to account, and if those countries cannot cope then breeding needs to be halted and/or assisted in a way that a reasonable life and security can prevail. there is no excuse from any government why this cannot be so, unless the raping of economies and resources to the detriment of said countries prohibit a reasonable quality of life for its constituents. life for all should and could be so fun and cool, but agendas and profits are and continue to be the deciding factors in our un-advanced world. bring on the plague/pestilence, the great equaliser that will destroy privilege and unearned posterity.

That's a pretty self-righteous piece stu. I tend to think that the Indonesian military would much prefer that we avoid Papua. The more people who visit, the more the stories of the indigenous people get told and the more careful the military have to be to avoid having their atrocities broadcast to the world.
If people go now, as was said in your original piece, surfers will probably be mainly in contact with indigenous Papuans rather than other Indonesians. This gives the Papuans at least some hope of getting a hold on some of the tourist industry that will inevitably develop.
A lot of Balinese, who otherwise would probably have been shut out, did very well out of the same process. Some of the people I met in the early days at Uluwatu, who were practically penniless, are now genuinely wealthy and many others have been able to maintain a much higher standard of living than otherwise would have been possible.

From huckmagazine link

"But I won’t be going (Indo). Just as I prefer not to go anywhere where I can spend more at the bar than most of the people I interact with will make in a week"

thats a weird thing to say?, im not sure what his point is?

Back to the west papua thing, its interesting to note that the non traditional papua population now is over 50% and projected to be at around 70% by 2020 (7 years time)

Not sure if that makes a difference or not to the future of west papua, unless there could be a true and proper vote on the issue, which in that case it would.

Was taking to a guy (Aussie) who lived in Jaypura west papua and asked his view and and was interesting to learn that among the well off papua people he knew although many were for change, other well off traditional west papua people were not as they believed it would cause more instability and problems to the economy, such as goods from Indonesia much more expensive and less opportunity to be able to be educated at a higher level in Java (as many of his colleagues had).

Personally i think we should just keep out of the matter and other countries matters as much as possible, im sure if the shoe was on the other foot, we as Australians wouldn't like it if of countries started telling us how to deal with our perceived problems.

Last week I attended an Indonesian studies conference and listened to a paper on just that issue you raised indo-dreaming. Int he debate over sovereignty in West Papua there are a group of long-time residents who are not native Papuans, yet not accepted in their originals regions either. The paper was particularly looking at Javanese settlers who migrated to Papua over 50 years ago - they can't speak Javanese, do not understand Javanese custom, but are also not accepted as Papuans. In no man's land as it were - just another part of the debate that, like you said, best left to Indonesians themselves to discuss.

Those people who support the OPM (Free West Papua movement) should probably have a read of this, which is quite scary, and ask yourself is this something i want to support?.

I guess its confirmation that there is two sides to the coin and the OPM is not a peaceful movement but more a movement that uses violence to try to get their way, in much the same way tribal warfare has been a part of their culture to sort out disputes for thousands of years and continues to this day, and i guess part of the reason the homicide rate in nearby PNG is 17 times higher than Indonesia.

Below taken from the linked news article:

“The OPM is ready for war. We no longer want any more dialogues that are rigged by Indonesia [...] which likes to cheat us,” he said.

“Indonesia should get out of Papua, because we will continue to fight for an independent Papua,” Puron said.

He said that the group of fighters he led with Enden would attack not just the security forces, but also civilians who were “non-Papuan,” or not ethnic Melanesian.

“Businesspeople, construction workers, civil servants — all Indonesians will be killed, chased out; not just soldiers or police, anyone with straight hair,” he said.

http://thejakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/news/opm-declares-open-war-securit...

BTW. Ive been interested in the issue and history of the area of late, and its interesting that Indonesia's history and Interest in the area goes back a lot further than people realise, modern Indonesia is based off course in part to the areas of Dutch rule (of which West Papua was a part and East Timor not) however before that it was also based on the ancient Majapahit Empire that goes back to the period 13000-1500 and some of West Papua was included in this empire.

Indo is over done...drunken roo shooten adventures is the next in thing..fuck ya charter boats me datsun 180b has racks and a trailer.bring ya swag and export blocks.

Indo is over done...drunken roo shooten adventures is the next in thing..fuck ya charter boats me datsun 180b has racks and a trailer.bring ya swag and export blocks.

Good on them, not that it will make much difference against Indonesia, Australia and America defending their mining intrests raping and pillaging yet another region.

Another good recent in depth article on the Issue.

Separatist resistance persists in Indonesia’s West Papua region, as attempts to internationalize the dispute by the Free Papua Movement (Organisasi Papua Merdeka – OPM) make it necessary for Jakarta to devise new policy options to address the decades-old conflict.

OPM has been waging a low-level guerrilla war in West Papua, formerly known as Irian Jaya, since 1969, the year of the controversial Act of Free Choice – a referendum process that ostensibly resulted in a unanimous decision by Papuan representatives to accept Indonesian sovereignty, but which has been dismissed by analysts as fraudulent.

Police reports indicate that between 2009 and 2014, there were 166 cases of violence involving the OPM. There were at least 14 attacks on the security apparatus in the region between 2014 and 2015. These actions indicate that despite the efforts of a newly democratic Indonesia (since 1998) to proactively address these challenges by reforming its counterinsurgency approach and providing more welfare for the population, grievances fed by protracted human rights abuses and economic exploitation linger.

more :http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/jokowis-challenges-in-negotiating-peace-i...

Wow, 166 cases of violence, that shows extraordinary restraint on the part of opm if you consider even low estimates put the death toll, deaths not just violence, at 100 000 upper estimates at 700 000 west papuans killed by Indonesians.

Just reading back the comments on page one, Dandandan and Blind boy summed it all up perfectly.

Sadly most people do believe its a one sided affair basically because we do not get a true picture and what most see is the one sided propaganda from the (OPM) Free west Papua movement.

The reality is its a small group of people raging a low level guerrilla war on authorities for a cause they believe in (BTW. one that not all Papua people support), sadly for them they are no match whatsoever for authorities and will always come out second best, the violence will stop when the movement realises that their aim is never going to happen and that they are much better politically and economically being part of Indonesia and instead of inciting hate and division they should instead work tougher towards peace and a better future.

Yes off course Indonesia has no intention on giving up West Papua just as we have no intention of giving Australia back to the Aboriginal people.

It completely does my head in that non Aboriginal Australians can not see the blatant hypocrisy in their views or support, imagine if the Australian Aboriginal people decided they wanted Australia back and decided they would wage war on authorities and would even attack civilians, then imagine if Indonesians supported the movement and said you guys get out leave your homes your business and go back to where you came from or where your bloodline goes back too Australia is not your you stole it and slaughtered many of the original owners…Im sure people like you would be the first to say you hypocrites you have no right to tell us this while you occupy West Papua.

And im sure you would not suddenly say okay no problem heres my home, heres my business its yours, and i don't think you would be complaining when our government used what force was needed to fight back and obviously our army would be no match against a small guerrilla army.

The irony in a sense is that most people who supported East Timor also support the OPM in West Papua however the breaking away of East Timor in reality has actually taken any chance of West Papua gaining independence, the strange thing is we supported this despite the peoples bloodline going back mostly to Indonesia even as far away as Sumatra their culture Indonesian and their history Indonesian, the excuse used was East Timor was never ruled by the Dutch an excuse that obviously can not be used with West Papua.

But i guess Australia's Interest in East timor was more about it being easier for us to be able to push around a little country for waters and resources rather than deal with Indonesia.

'Most people', don't know anything about the conflict. It is one sided as I pointed out, no one can provide any factual evidence that it's not a totally one sided conflict. Indonesians supported by Australia and the US in a history of human rights abuses, forced removal, kidnapping, torture, mass killings, genocide. But that's OK because a small group of militia have decided not to sit down and take it.

Where is this big opm propaganda machine you keep on about, when was the last time you saw any information about the plight of the west papuans in the main stream media?

Just because Indonesia or Australia have no intention of giving back land to its rightful owners doesn't mean it's not going to happen and doesn't mean that those affected peoples don't have the right to or won't keep fighting for it.

People from all over the world support indigineous Australians in their efforts to reclaim sovereignty or some acceptable return of their lands and compensation just like I support the efforts of West papuans, it not hypocritical at all, that's just your way of trying to understand it.

'Most people who supported east Timor also support opm', thats an interesting statement but its not based on anything, its just an opinion which extends to the argument that the breaking away of East Timor has anything to do with what will happen in west Papua, the two issues are totally unrelated.

East Timor was supported by Australia to protect the interests of individuals who would be put into power and who would in return support Australian interests in the area namely resources.

The only thing that will stop the violence in west Papua is if Indonesia stop propagating it, stop the abuse of the people who live there and allow them to live. While the Indonesians continue to forcibly move people from their villages, burn villages down, kidnap people, torture people, kill people there will be those who choose to stand up to them and good on them

Anyway sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

Personally I'm happy with the recent developments by the Indonesian government in the region and believe its a positive step forward and hopefully the OPM movement will be diluted like GAM in Aceh and both the Papua and Indonesian people can work towards a better more peaceful future together.

Yeah we come at this from different perspectives, i understand your connection to indonesia to some extent.IMO its important to balance the equation otherwise I wouldn't bother commenting.

Comparing the opm to the sharia nutjobs in aceh is an odd comparison I prefer your example of dispossession and genocide in Australia. Opm are not trying to establish extreme religious governance they are trying to regain their home and culture. Hopefully the issue will gain enough significance on the world stage that the US will withdraw its support and we'll see a repeat of Timor, if its happened once it can happen again. Until then opm and the people not affiliated but directly affected by the Indonesian violence have every right to stand up to it.