Kelly Slater almost sunk in wave pool wrangle

Stu Nettle
Surfpolitik

Inspiration can arrive at any moment, while sitting under an apple tree or standing on a shoreline. It can also take many forms. Everyone knows the story of Isaac Newton and the falling apple, but for surfer and inventor, Greg Webber, inspiration arrived in the shape of a small wave breaking along a riverbank. His eureka moment led him to make an award-winning film and also design a wave pool that he says will presage a surfing revolution. First, however, he must stave off a challenge by the most famous person in surfing.

In 2001 Webber stood on the deck of a fishing trawler on the Clarence River in northern NSW. He noticed the boat's wake creating miniature waves along the shoreline and was captivated by their perfect shape. Enthused by the potential he began to experiment with the wake off his own runabout, changing angles and distance and noticing the effect it had on the quality of waves. He called on his brother Monty who began filming the waves, shooting them from various angles but always careful to leave the source of the waves – the boat – out of picture.

In 2004 Monty Webber released a movie comprised entirely of boat wake footage. Liquid Time won awards at surf film festivals despite not featuring a single surfer nor any waves over two feet high. The power of Liquid Time lay in evocation; with no way to reference their size, and with the boat out of frame, viewers imagined these tiny waves to be wind-borne waves on the ocean. The physical properties were identical, but best of all the waves in Liquid Time were perfect – utterly perfect.

For Greg Webber the inspiration didn't end there. In 2004 he lodged a patent with the US Patent Office for a wave pool that incorporated the same elements as the boat wakes they'd been filming. Webber's design featured a large circular pool with an island in the middle. An object similar to a boat hull moved around the outer edge of the pool displacing water and sending a wake toward the inner island. The wake broke around the island providing a theoretically endless wave.

The patent was approved in 2005 and Webber established a company to commercially develop the wave pool. The name of the company: Liquid Time.

Webber assembled engineers and for the next five years years they researched the physics behind wave pools, building a scale model at Delft University of Technology, Netherlands, and also at the Australian Maritime College, Launceston. He had success making small-scale versions of the waves and discovered the elements required for creating a perfect wave in a pool. Amongst them was running a counter-current around the pool to stand the wave up vertically so it barrels.

All the while Webber sought investment in his wave pools and teamed up with an American water park construction company, Michael Lee Designs, in preparation for roll out in the US market. "If there's a 1000 water parks in America then how on Earth can't there be 100 wave pools?" said Webber when asked about the future of wave pools.

Yet despite holding the only US patent for pools of this kind Greg Webber is not the name that comes to mind when most people think of wave pools. In 2008 Kelly Slater formed the Kelly Slater Wave Company, and since its inception he's been creating and testing wave pools with a design very similar to Webber's.

Recently Slater leveraged his celebrity with a six minute video on America's CBS News that included discussion about his wave pools as a post-career business venture. The Kelly Slater Wave Company also released a promotional video just prior to his latest world title win.

In the CBS piece journalist Tracy Smith visited Slater at the Los Angeles warehouse where his company has built a scale model. As the camera enters the building Smith says, "For proprietary reasons they ask that we don't show all the equipment." The vision then pans across the wave pool but much of the image is blurred, the pool and the wave are visible but not the apparatus that creates the wave.

In the latest promotional video for the Kelly Slater Wave Company, ocean waves are interspersed with close-ups of miniature waves breaking in the wave pool. Again, no vision of their wave-making apparatus is shown. Halfway through the video Slater provides a voiceover, saying of his wave pool: "What we have is something totally unique."

Except that they don't have something unique. Since applying for a patent in 2008 Kelly Slater and his business partner, Adam Fincham, have twice been rejected because their wave pool infringes upon Greg Webber's design. In both of their attempts - first in 2008 then again this year - the response from examiners at the US Patent Office has been identical: the design submitted by the Kelly Slater Wave Company is "unpatentable over Webber." It is too similar to Greg Webber's design for a patent to be granted.

Both wave pools are identical in concept: a circular pool with an island in the middle that waves break around. That idea cannot be patented, no-one can lay claim to it. The critical aspect of their wave pools, and the crux of the patent decisions, is how the waves are made.

A hull (or foil as it is called in the patent applications) is used in both Webber and Slater's design to displace water and send a wake toward the island. Where the designs differ is that Webber's hull sends two waves toward the island - as a boat on a river does - while Slater's sends just one.

Slater and his company zeroed in on this point of difference hoping that it would be enough to classify their design as something new and of itself – unique enough to have its own patent. In documents accompanying their application they stated that "Webber does not generate a wave, but rather cause multiple wakes." Regarding their own design, they placed emphasis on "solitary waves."

The patents office didn't agree and rejected their application in May. It was deemed that Webber's patent also incorporates solitary waves. "It would have been obvious to one having ordinary skill in the art of invention" said the examiners in their rejection statement, "to modify the configuration of the foil shown by Webber." Put simply, the number of waves produced from a hull aren't a critical aspect of its overall design properties.

For his part, Greg Webber promotes two waves per hull as it allows more people to ride waves concurrently in the wave pool and hence would be more financially efficient in a pay-to-use scenario.

If the Kelly Slater Wave Company are to get their own patent they'll either have to create a fundamentally different wave-making apparatus - which may explain the blurring in the CBS video - or they'll have to take legal recourse. In the CBS piece Slater told Tracy Smith his wave pools would be ready for market by 2014, yet considering his design still isn't patented that date seems fanciful. A new and heretofore unknown design will require rigorous testing, while a lawsuit will require a new avenue of argument. Both require time and money before they even get to the examiners desk at the US Patents Office.

Slater is known to be an astute businessman and his will to win has garnered him an unbelievable 11 world titles, yet getting the first wave pool in the ground appears a race he cannot win. "It could be less than two years before the first one is built," says Webber of his pools. Webber also holds the patents for China, Japan and Australia meaning Kelly Slater might be beaten for speed and he may also be outflanked. If that happens he'd be effectively comboed – shut out of the game.

In the quest for market dominance the first person to create a working wave pool will have a clear advantage. Surfers and businesspeople ("global players" according to Webber) are keenly watching the development of wave pools and they "just need to see one pool cranking out perfect barrels and there'll be a chain reaction." The roll out will be swift.

It appears unlikely the Kelly Slater Wave Pool Company would invest so much for no financial return yet their next move is anyone's guess. Attempts to contact Kelly Slater for this article went unanswered. While both the CEO and Sales Director of Sutton Holdings - the holding company for the Kelly Slater Wave Company - couldn't help me with enquiries.

When I asked Greg Webber about his business competitor he recognised that Kelly had actually helped his own cause. "He's done me a massive favour by giving credibility to the design in a way I could never have done," said Webber. Yet I also got the feeling that Webber was very wary of Slater and what he may have in mind. The options are limited for the 11 time world champion but as anyone who's watched his surfing career knows you simply can't count him out.

Video: Greg Webber explains the rationale behind his wave pool vision 'All Hail The King' CBS News special on Kelly Slater Kelly Slater Wave Company promotional video

Comments

heals's picture
heals's picture
heals commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 8:31am

What do you say?...Wow!

So if Greg Webber got his patent in 2005 and Kelly Slater started his company in 2008 then Slater must've always known he was going to have to challenge Greg Webber legally. There was never going to be anything new about Slater's wavepool. For him to say 'we've got something totally unique', is misrepresentation and verging on a breach of the Trades Practices Act.

I know it's in the USA and they don't have a TPA, but they must have something similar?

As for his integrity, well, lawsuit or not, that just went out the window.

victor's picture
victor's picture
victor commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 8:59am

slippery little seppo. 10 mill if he wants your patents gregory......

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:52am

Once a reliable working machine is produced providing a barrelling overhead wave, I'd whack another zero onto that 10 mil victor.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 10:12am

thanks fellows, appreciate the support.

whaaaat's picture
whaaaat's picture
whaaaat commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 10:13am

Bugger misrepresentation!! If Slats built his current wave machine, he'd breach GW's patent. Damages would be huge. But it wouldn't ever get to that point; GW would've applied for and got a injunction well before then. But then the real legal battle would just be starting.

Practically and commercially speaking, GW and Slats should get together and work out a licence arrangement. (Nothing against Bob Kelly, but I can't see him wanting to partner up in a joint-venture arrangement.)

Licensing your invention to RKS, GW, would take replace a potentially vile legal battle with certainty for both sides in getting the wave machine into reality.

Don't let it get to litigation. Trust me. I'm a lawyer.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 10:25am

I've already offered. Declined.

And I'm still open to the idea of course.

whaaaat's picture
whaaaat's picture
whaaaat commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 11:00am

Goddamn. Well, you've at least got the US Patent Office in your corner, and, now, the publicity generated by his prime time appearance. Mebbe your next step should be hiring the best PR firm you can find to generate public opprobrium if RKS decides to chance his arm?

No doubt you'll keep your pit-bull legal team on stand-by, just in case.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 11:16am

I'm just glad that all of this will increase the profile of the pools generally. Hopefully at some stage in the future developers will have competed so extensively that there will actually be a surplus of waves. ie "Come and live here, the waves are free!" This bit now will be a distant memory.

whaaaat's picture
whaaaat's picture
whaaaat commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 12:03pm

Sure thing brother.

Just so long as you get fair return for your ingenuity, persistence and guts.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 12:38pm

Thanks, hope so too.

southey's picture
southey's picture
southey commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 12:42pm

Greg ,

I admire your ballsy , give it a go attitude .

I too spent alot of the 90's staring aimlessly at boat wakes , I unfortunately stuck to what i know . You my friend refused to let real life get in the way of your goals . As whaaat suggested don't let the legalities ruin most importantly yourself and then RKS . As for his financial backers and legal teams well they can get what they deserve (nothing) .

Best of luck .

" SA's Reserve Capacity "

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 12:51pm

Thanks Southey! who knows how it will all pan out. Will be interesting though.

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 1:40pm

Greg,

Correct my hazy memory if I'm wrong, But I recall watching a vid ages ago of either you or one of your bro's wake surfing on the Clarence? You just needed a bigger boat:)

I hope it pans out for you. When there's this much at stake (cash), I'm sure there would be not much love lost from RKS and his faceless backers.

I recall a bloke from the CSIRO inventing WiFi. The Seppos fought tooth and nail to disprove and discredit him and claim the invention as their own. But in the end he held the patents, developed the technology and I believe now the royalties alone are worth a couple a hundred mil a year to the Aussie governemnt.

I sincerely hope your vision come to fruition.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

grug's picture
grug's picture
grug commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 4:34pm

Thanks for pointing this out Stu. The Slater PR machine had wrapped my face in wool. Best of luck with it Greg. It would appear that your motivation is fueled firstly by passion for waves. This is how it should be. Your integrity is refreshing.

Now i need to find a DVD copy of Liquid Time. The Vimeo version is great but the content demands higher quality.

backhand's picture
backhand's picture
backhand commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 7:55pm

Legalities aside, I think the concept is just frigen incredible. Canberra could become a surfing state and I may be able to live there for work!! Once the first one is built I wonder what the modifications would be in the future? Bottom contours of the pool that could be changed by hydraulics to offer slab or air sections?

Also board design might be different too? If you don't have to paddle onto the wave, like you were jumping off a platform onto the already breaking wave maybe you could ride small boards much like wake skateboards?

saltmotion's picture
saltmotion's picture
saltmotion commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:01pm

@gregw - I'm impressed by your ideas. It seems that you have the technology, the patents, the model etc - what is the delay in getting one of these built? Please don't say its money, if people are willing to back Slater for the same idea that you hold a patent for surely there are financiers that will provide capital to you?...

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:10pm

Thanks boys, yeah Zen, the wake surfing came after making the mini wave film which came after just mucking around with the wakes off a runabout. Yes that was it Grug, nothing to do with making a pool, or money for that matter, thanks for even noticing that. I'll find out how Monty is selling the LT vid, and see if Swellnet will add a link. Backhand, yes you're onto it, but no need to alter the bottom, with slight changes to hull speed and draft we can make any wall change in height and steepness to create sections to boost off or backdoor. Most of the team are surfers so we get just as excited thinking of how to create random, or even ordered irregularities, like a section every 5 seconds. Not that mechanically perfect wont be fun.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:14pm

oh and yeah, the lack of paddling will reduce the need for chunky or big boards, but they'll still be fun to ride just for the different feel they give, But yes, numbers of wave catching boards will be way down. Not that it matters anyway cos your waves are your waves, so no hassle anyway.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:15pm

salmotion: we're getting close.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:16pm

sorry mate, Saltmotion.

beavis's picture
beavis's picture
beavis commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:35pm

ThankYou! I was saying this months ago on the last Kelly Slater Wave Pool article..
Nothing wrong with a little bit of competition!

harderfaster's picture
harderfaster's picture
harderfaster commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 9:54pm

Hi Greg, happy to help you with some PR mate. I have some great ideas ... shoot me an email if you'd like to have a chat. [email protected]

atticus's picture
atticus's picture
atticus commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 10:12pm

I see the cult of celebrity has been hard at work. Here's hoping the pen pushers at the patents office aren't swayed like the surfing public have been. Credit where credit is due...and may the right person also receive due recognition and profit.

All the best with your invention, Greg.

norv's picture
norv's picture
norv commented Thursday, 17 Nov 2011 at 10:50pm

Hey Greg, all the best with your wavepool :) Just remember, you're up against a guy who did that whitewater take-off to score an interference win* in a comp a few years ago - watch your back, eh ;)
Cheers,
Norv

*nothing against his surfing skills obviously, 11 titles is 11 titles...

sophie's picture
sophie's picture
sophie commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 3:38am

Are you still there GregW? When and where will we see a wavepool? In Aust or US? How big will the waves be?

Sorry for all the questions!

kneepete's picture
kneepete's picture
kneepete commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 3:42am

Reckon it'll be a good kneelo wave.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 4:26am

back on again. thanks Norv, is that NW?

and Sophie, Slightly more chance it will be Aust, and probably within two years. We are working on a proof of concept design to make 1.5m waves but possibly our first circular pool within the same time frame. As for wave height in essence it is effectively unlimited, that's in principle. We are confident that we can make 2m waves. waves in the ocean don't just stop at 2 m so the dynamics behind the actual heights is the same.

trolleyboy's picture
trolleyboy's picture
trolleyboy commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 4:30am

Welcome to Trolley Boy's Hypotheticals!

This next hypothetical is directed at you, Greg Webber. You have a couple of wave pools built and business is booming. One day you are working behind the counter of the Sydney Wave Centre when a familiar face walks in the front door. Bald head, green eyes, confident stride...it is him! Your one-time nemesis.

He says, "Howdy Greg, business looks good" and then asks for a day pass - a concession day pass!

The hypothetical - and hey, this could come true - is this: Do you give him a discount to ride waves in your wave pool or do you make him pay full price?

sophie's picture
sophie's picture
sophie commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 4:36am

Thx Greg. Can't wait!

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 4:38am

Any ex-world champ should get a free season pass and get a 10% discount on their Quikshake, Billabong Burger and Hurley fries.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

trolleyboy's picture
trolleyboy's picture
trolleyboy commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 4:56am

Wait your turn Mr Zenagain.

Gregory, your answer please.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 5:01am

gees Trolleyboy! pressure question hey. nicely narrowed down to two distinctly opposed options but I'd go with neither of those options. I'm totally happy to work with him. I've been making boards since I was ten, and sand banks and surfboards from the same age, and it's all way to slow for me. So when anything speeds up progression in any way, I'm more happy to see it accelerate no matter who or what is the catalyst, than to get all defensive and potentially stagnate things. KS is accelerating this whole deal way more than I ever could. How it pans out who knows, but I actually have him to thank in this regard. (I'd actually say no as a joke though, just to watch him cringe a bit.)

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 5:09am

sorry Pete, all Kneelos are banned in the pools. Ha! no way, totally love the idea! Just wish Albert Whiteman was still around to have him gyrate about (as he used to) on a nice clean face. I'll bet you guys will find some new lines way deep in the tube.... (just saw Mike Novokov and Steve Artis at Narrabeen a few months ago which was great) maybe surfers will have to do expression sessions on a body board, knee board and standup as a special event.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 5:12am

might even get George Greenough to ride on of his old spoons out there too.

trolleyboy's picture
trolleyboy's picture
trolleyboy commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 5:20am

Gregory,

Your answer almost got you posted in the Diplomatic Corp. Fortunately your last sentence - which I take as a 'No Kelly we don't need your business here' - saved you that wretched existence. You can relax and undo your tie now.

Thanks for playing Trolley Boy's Hypotheticals!

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 5:24am

..."might even get George Greenough to ride on of his old spoons out there too."

Steen Barnes, are you reading this??

finback's picture
finback's picture
finback commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 7:51am

Excellent work Greg and Monty. A bunch of guys in their late 50's will be retiring soon so three things: 1. They could be potential investors when they get their super packages and 2. Being a part owner in a wavepool would ensure more solo waves every day without doing battle with longboards, stand up paddle boards, goat boats, esky lids and kite surfers. 3. I can't wait to ride in a G Webber designed wave pool on my Will Webber quad with M Webber DVD of it. The grandkids will love it too, surfing with their Pa.

bob_s's picture
bob_s's picture
bob_s commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 7:54am

I have been following the wave pool innovations for some time. "snake " gabrialson had his own circular system in the public domain and a IT guy from texas invented "surf the ring". Surf the ring is a circular pool with sides that are made up of thin verical "fingers" these being hinged at the base and a could give an inward burst of movement at the top. Like a "mexican" wave a pattern of "burst movements" moved around the pool wall. In doing this it spawned a wave - a nice wave. Now if you can think of the shape of the way the mexican wave of wall deformations travelled around the pool wall -you can even have the shape of a boat hull (sort of).
It is my belief that Kelly owns this patent now and its similar in effect to Gregs - but different. I think that making it a "hard hull" instead of the "rings " original "soft" hull (think hardware and software) is maybe where the two patents collide. As a "soft shape hull controlled by software" the fingers are infinitely adaptable - one of those infinite shapes may be the same as Greg's had hulls and not permitted.

In my opinion the Surf the ring' is its own innovation from many years ago from a Texas IT consultant/inventor - Kelly bought it copying no-one. Now the commercial issues evolve as they always will? There always more to a story than may appear at times?

bob_s

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 8:00am

Bob, are you talking about Kevin "Magnum PI" Roberts, seen spruiking his Surf-The-Ring prototype in a YouTube video late 2008?

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaolz0ONW6M

andrewrowe's picture
andrewrowe's picture
andrewrowe commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 8:43am

Greg,
Fantastic work on the invention, however as you know, 90% of the battle is ahead of you to successfully commercialise this before the patent runs out.
Forget KS - you don't need him, because professional endorsements will be a dime-a-dozen once you get a heavyweight on board. Don't think people, but existing brands that are working in this space. A long-term partner could be someone like Billabong, Rip Curl or Quicksilver - with them will come the celebrity endorsements. A short-term catalyst to actually get one built however, could be Red Bull - they would love that sort of crazy, extreme competition with their name applied to it.
There are so many ways you could tackle this - you just need to beat down some doors and get someone to help you do it.
Keep on trying, and I'd be happy to lend you a hand if you need or want it - [email protected].

bob_s's picture
bob_s's picture
bob_s commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 9:14am

Ben, I think that Kevin bought the idea and may have even sold on to Kelly . I believe that Kevin was not the inventor and the inventor was a computer IT type guy who didn't even surf - just had good ideas and patented them. I wish Greg luck as he has clearly put in the hard yards and deserves success. Snake Gabrialson just put his idea online so that someone might pick it up and run with it -he wanted to see surfing in the Olympics.

oh surf the ring is also here

http://www.surfthering.com/

maybe my info about Kelly buying the rights to it is not accurate?

but if there's one thing that gets every surfer in a lather of elation -its the promise of perfect endless waves 24/7 on time online all the time?

bob_s

whaaaat's picture
whaaaat's picture
whaaaat commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 9:15am

@ thermalben

Ah yes, I've seen this video. Poor bastard. How NOT to whip up excitement and titillate potential investors....

Should've put Troy McClure onto the job.

And Lionel Hutz onto the legals....

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 9:51am

The surf the ring patent is not an issue. It's different in the way it makes the waves, so there is no conflict with mine. Kelly may have helped kevin develop his idea, but for whatever reason changed direction. The KS patent that is being described in this article is not that patent.

rusty-moran's picture
rusty-moran's picture
rusty-moran commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:03am

Greg,
I believe in you mate. So much so, that I am willing to offer you the free use of my place at Gerringong for you to bring in as many earthmovers and concrete trucks as you like to build your first test facility. I would, of course, appreciate some free boards in return for my generousity!
Rusty

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:03am

Thanks for the offers of help, appreciate it. and yes, most of the brands associated with the dynamic risky/sexy/dangerous sports have not only been in contact but have already done studies on how things might change were a truly successful wave pool to exist. They have been kind of waiting for a revolutionary design to appear.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:05am

Thanks Rusty, sounds good!!

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:08am

I love the guy in the Roberts surf the ring vid. Is it kevin himself? Reminds me of Geoff Sorrel in the 1970 surf documantary "A surfing Oddysey".One of the greatest unknown surf films ever! totally historical, no theme or agenda and made by a non surfer from Sydney. Find it.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:12am

Bob S, you've got to wonder though why would Kevin or this IT guy you mention create such a complex system when an actual physical form of the shape it mimics (a sine curve) would do the same job. Come on kevin, join in mate, I know you're reading this. I called Kevin and we chatted briefly several years ago.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:14am

not that this shape is what we use now though.

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:30am

hey finback, who's in their late 50's? I'm 51 and mont 50, old but don't whack another decade on us!

Doclach's picture
Doclach's picture
Doclach commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:31am

Greg there is a lot of interest from the boogers on this as well. The type of wave you're envisioning at its premium - will there be a depth in the barrel we can get into and sit back in on our guts , or will it be more just an end opening/skating type wave?

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:31am

god I'm a dill, just re-read it.

rusty-moran's picture
rusty-moran's picture
rusty-moran commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:32am

Man theres some funny stationary wave stuff on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo3jHjuprzY&feature=related

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:39am

doclach, you have no idea what will be made for you guys. anything can be created. This design mixes wakes that are on the verge of breaking just as they are already, due to the radial compression of going in curves, but in combination with bottom contours that can create square ledgey bases. maybe the first few pools will be slightly more user friendly, but even in these pools the bigger it gets the hollower it gets, due to the gradient changing from slight to steep as it gets deeper. ie the bigger waves which break in the deeper water where the gradient is steeper will tube much more.

wave-starved-n-over-worked's picture
wave-starved-n-over-worked's picture
wave-starved-n-... commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:44am

any plans for smaller backyard versions????? :-)

Doclach's picture
Doclach's picture
Doclach commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 10:46am

OK, so you just made my evening Greg. I'll let the spongers know, they'll be well impressed - and thanks for taking the time to reply in person. Solid.
Doc

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 11:37am

not quite that small but at 60m diameter we can make 4 x 1.5m waves, so that's pretty small. Not quite back yard though!

Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber's picture
Greg Webber commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 11:37am

AOK doclach, pleasure.

shaun's picture
shaun's picture
shaun commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 7:53pm

Be careful of what you wish for, remember Peter Drouyn and where it led him.

He had been researching wave pools. His hope was that this would be the start of Vegas-like surfing performances in “wave stadiums.” He envisaged orchestra pits, laser shows, and trained dolphins leaping over the heads of barrelled surfers on centre stage (a decade later we’d get The Flow Rider).

I'm the scab you keep picking off and is there again the next day.

victor's picture
victor's picture
victor commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 8:06pm

and then.......westerley appeared

prawnhead's picture
prawnhead's picture
prawnhead commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 9:40pm

i am assuming greg that the first location would have to the front bar of the pacific hotel yamba
reduce the crowds at the point and be the first crossover event !!
UFC surfing...
good luck with your idea!!

bob_s's picture
bob_s's picture
bob_s commented Friday, 18 Nov 2011 at 11:01pm

@gregw, I cant agree with you on the issue Greg. I see both round pools, yours and StR providing waves by having a moving shape going around the wall. Yours is a motivated hull and StR is or can be the wall "morphing" progressively around the pool. Much more technically challenging but not impossible. The second can be infinitely adjustable online real-time. If its not patented then I have just published it so it is unpatentable. but it may be 2025 before the materials,money and technology is available to make it feasible.

Btw how many people know that the flowrider is A N O T H E R Australian invention. Guy called Killan and his rocket scientist supervisor Hornung presented a Hydrodynamics conference in Newcastle in 1987. if anyone is interested I can email you the paper. Lochtefeld acknowledges their work in his patent. It was also the reason his case against American Wave Machines collapsed = flowrider is public domain and was since Killan and hornung publised , built models etc (one was on display in the Sydney powerhouse museum). Professor Hornung went on I believe (as german rocket scientists do) to work on designing space re-entry vehicles. Maybe even virgins?

I don't believe Kelly to be a Tom Lochtefeld but his business group - as they say in the heartland of capitalism -its just business?and business is business.

I am told that the one of the largest company's in the world routinely gets its r&d thus innovations from new patents - then just sweetly say "so sue us".

Remember where Steven Jobs got the idea of a GUI - seeing it under r&D at Xerox. Then when he tried to sue Gates was tapped on the shoulder by Xerox and told "go for your life but don't get used to holding any money you get from them"

@ Shaun - I remember well Peter Drouyn talking surfing stadiums so long ago - breaks were not so crowded then.

There are many of these in the 'space race' and the winner will be the one that is easily done for low cost - as always. But who knows a multibillionare may want his own "surfing neverland " on in his front lawn for whatever cost. That may speed things up a little.

bob_s

top-to-bottom-bells's picture
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top-to-bottom-bells commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 1:37am

Have you heard from Kelly Slater yet Stu?

thermalben's picture
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thermalben commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 1:37am

Greg, how about Fred Coblyn's design? According to an article in the Byron Shire News (2008), Fred has patented his reef idea (he's currently working on a prototype in Sukabumi, West Java).

Fred reckons Kelly was in touch with him a few years ago, although I don't know how far that progressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqJPTbJnWes
http://www.byronnews.com.au/story/2008/07/03/apn-surfs-up-in-a-backyard-...

savyoperators's picture
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savyoperators commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 3:44am

..not much sole in a wave pool made in texas.. haha

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goingsouth commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 6:01am

Hello GW.

Congrats on how it is all going, it's brilliant news for you and us!

Where do you think the first pool will be built?? Sydney area? Cooly? Who are you thinking gets to be lucky buggers and get the first pool?

Good luck and thanks.

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rees0's picture
rees0 commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 6:08am

Hi Greg,

Can't wait to see this in person. My question is will it be an indoor or outdoor setup? from what i gather it seems as though it will be setup outdoors. Obviously with outdoors comes the element of wind and we all know the effects of this. Is it possible to somehow create a 360 degree offshore effect indoors?

Cheers

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 7:13am

Sorry fellows have to give comments a miss on comparing our system to any others. We'll just have to wait and see.

Peter Drouyn was correct and all sorts of versions will pop up. Some garish and tacky and some refined and subdued. Some branded some not. If we watch dolphins in still water for entertainment I'm sure seaworlds will give them great waves to ride too, and possibly live fish too. Look at how many surfboard styles are around now. personal taste will do the same thing with pools. Maybe we'll see Westerly riding a Dolphin on one of those waves at a pool opening!!
going south, yes Cooly is a possibility for sure.

Reeso. There will be both indoor and outdoor because cold climates will need to be covered. However the fetch is way too small to develop chop from winds. Tiny ripples at the most.

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tylerdurden commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 9:08am

Greg, I don't mean to be a nay-sayer here because I think you have truly come up with a visionary concept.
However, even though you have probably put an incredible amount of work into it, it is hard to imagine the first paying rider riding the first wave for a long long time. As a new concept, the public liability is going to be enormous.
What if three people break their necks in the first 6 months?
Even with good insurance and all the disclaimers in the world, some government agency will shut it down if there are enough serious injuries.
If you have set yourself up as an executive director of a company in charge of this then ultimately you will be responsible for failure of the pool if for some reason it is shut.
It is probably not a bad idea for you to do the Australian Institute of Company Directors course before you decide to embark on the venture. I have done it and it certainly is an eye opener.
There certainly are some comparisons such as wave pools and the flowrider but your concept promises barrels, and anytime that sort of power is involved over a hard bottom then there is potential to break necks.
My advice would be to think of a number that you need to retire and then sell the patent and all the research to somebody for this amount. Dream World or Wet and Wild would be a good start.
You potentially might miss out on millions but you will 50, retired, surfing whenever you want and spending all the time in the world with your family or friends.
Alternatively you could spend the next 10 years trying to get the thing off the ground and ultimately end up broke.

victor's picture
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victor commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 9:28am

tylerdurden, everyone else congrats mr webber on his achievment[s] and you try to put a negative on it ..the man has many years of business experience behind him. dream world or wet and wild ,umm they seem to get insurance for fun parks with the ability to break necks or more.. go away and take you negativity with you..tosser...

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bob_s commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 9:55am

@merdurden, it seems a sad bad fact that Inventers usually end up with 10 % or less of the invention if they are lucky and astute. It stinks and in some cases like the triple fin they end up with nothing.

Another difficulty is that to stay motivated ,focused and on topic Inventers have to be totally obsessed with their idea - the nay saying can be a unwanted distraction as what they need to hear is support and praise to put the extra effort in. That is just human nature to need encouragement - especially when everything and many man years of effort are on the line.

I'm sure you and everyone wishes Greg and his team well and your comment is meant to assist.

It must be difficult facing Greg's challenges to see anything other than praise as useful but what you say reflects a serious reality in the water sports world.

I designed and helped build a double helix water slide at Nelsons Bay in the early 80's. It was the first in the Hunter valley (we made it up as we went but with sound engineering) and the threats were many. You can think of them all but fortunately some were just malicious rumours ( razer blades and chewing gum).

But what the little darlings did do was to find the natural frequency of the 6 or 7 story structure and start to heave ho together to begin a almost run-away swaying that accelerated in magnitude -to their total delight.

Remember everyone clapping and stamping in time in school halls - we were really hoping the bring the house down?

That could have lead to the fibre glass flume joints splitting and a similar thing to razer blades in the flume being present. It was 24/7 welding enough criss-cross bracing everywhere to stop any sway. very easily fixed - our extensive 3d computer modelling of loads and deflections didn't pick up an "earthquake type" side sway as being a threat -especially when 10 to 15 -40kg kids at the top singing heave ho and this is more fun that gut sliding.

the moral of the story being "what can happen -will happen". just every time.

Saying all that, knowing fully the commercial constraints of the field one wish's to make business in is a very good idea. Good luck with your initiative Greg!

A good list of Australian Inventions can be found below and I hope your individual adaptation of a natural process finds it's way there.

http://www.whitehat.com.au/australia/Inventions/InventionsA.html

bob_s

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:01am

I'll comment in a minute, got to eat!

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:55am

public liability has been considered of course. We have a team that is quite expansive and not much could have been missed. Thanks Though.

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:57am

thanks Victor

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:57am

thanks Victor

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rusty-moran commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:58am

@bobs, Ha! That's hilarious...I was one of your "darlings" in a pack of ten or fifteen that had that slide shaking and swishing with chunky volumes of water. It was heaps good!!!

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Greg Webber commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 11:07am

Bob s. you're right there is much that we can never foresee when people want to create havoc. Like your well expressed swaying structure example, we have considered the most ridiculous behavior and then then added one more level of silliness for good measure.eg there are codes that determine the thickness and density of the material that is placed below children's play parks and structures. We will consider the waterpark version of those guidelines.

bob_s's picture
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bob_s commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 12:35pm

rusty, glad you had fun and supa glad nobody got hurt.
the slide was buzz alright and I think if i was a younger then I would have been "pushing it to the limit"as well.

Cant say that I could enjoy being responsible for a fun park though - considering that adolescents only goal is the "bring the place down"as
we all did at that age.

sad to say that there was a stupid time in my life when I thought that
a vunerable teacher was just a soft target - but fortunately realized in time that he was my ticket out of a dumb and stupid lifestyle of not wanting to listen to people who should be listened to.

"to learn the truth grasshopper you have to use all your senses""??

gregw dont confuse adolescent males as people - think back -we were all but well behaved "people"" just look at the streets after dark?

bob_s

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barley commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 1:40pm

If I was KS I would be thinking of another surface other than a 'hull' that could make the same result as a hull...or better! This would surely clear the patent and make a path for forming different types of waves. While Greg has been clever and taken care of his business it has taken Kelly's name for the idea to get any traction and move the project foward. Would you go to a Webber wave park or a Kely Slater wave park? How many different types of waves are in this park? Is there a 'pipeline' or a 'chopes'? How ridiculous would it cost to surf? Would it end up like the Queensland version of pus? Not trying to be rude but is it even really possible?

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zenagain commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 2:12pm

Barley me old China,

I'd surf the Doris Day/Gidget/Lady GaGa Wave park if it meant banging a couple of reo's then getting shacked for 10 seconds and banging another couple of reo's and finishing with a close-out floater any day. I'd even be cool with lining up for 15 minutes for my next set.

Kind of like my usual surfs except for about two reo's and the 10 second barrell. I'd even pay $50 for the privelage.

But then I'd get bored.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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waitlongtime commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 3:19pm

As a surfer, I don't care about all the patent crap, I just hope all this results in a fun wave pool near me ASAP. Greg, wish you all the best, but patented since '05 and not a single wave park anywhere?

My 2 cents: don't worry about adjustable bottoms and all that fancy crap -- mechanically perfect waves are why so I spend 10k a year on trips to Indo, and it's pretty crowded there now, so must be a lotta people agree. Just get a product to market, or else let your patent go unenforced so someone else can...

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tylerdurden commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 9:25pm

Victor, my advice may be construed as negative but also may be the most important Greg gets.
As a director, you must disclose all potential risks to an investor, otherwise if it goes belly up due to a known ( but undisclosed) risk then you are responsible.
For example, spinal injuries are a real risk of using the thing. But what about if someone's arm gets caught in the thing that spins around the outside? Or if there are some strange currents and someone gets held down and drowns after a wipeout?
Are there going to be multiple waves ridden at once? What if someone falls off and gets run over by someone on the wave behind them? What if the current drags them straight into the line of the oncoming surfer?Or they can't get back to the side or lose their board? It will probably have to stop until everybody is back in position. There are a lot of unknowns about what will actually happen to the surfer in the water.
If only one person is riding it at a time, how many people due you need to put through at what cost per person to cover all your costs? Staffing, maintenance, fuel, admin, public liability. Probably need at least $5000 per day to meet costs which equates to something like $50 x 100 people which is one every 6 minutes for 10 hours. $50 for 6 minutes? An expensive 6 minutes.
And what about the cost to build the thing? $10 000 000? 20,30,50 000 00?
Interest on a loan like that is $500 000 per year plus. So therefore you need to be putting about 150 people per day through every day before you have made a single cent of profit.
Your best long term bet is to sell the product as a franchise after it is built and shown to be successful...but you still need to build the first one and it has to work and not maim or kill people.
Alternatively, sell your patent and the R&D, retire to a life of relative luxury, go surfing and watch someone else go through all that pain of sorting out the legalities, overseeing the construction and then trying to make it vaguely profitable.
Your choice, good luck with whatever you decide.

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freeride76 commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:27pm

Hi Greg, Steve Shearer from Lennox, used to deliver organic food to some of your family members in Angas.

Forgive my scepticism but we've been hearing this wavepool stuff now for over 30 years.

I've seen workable wave models in the Delft labs that probably go back even longer.

Is there a realistic time-line when the public will see what has been promised and hyped for over 30 years: a high quality surfable wave in a pool?

And how will these things be powered and get access to the huge amounts of water they will require?

Actually, I'm not sorry to be a sceptic.

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z-man commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:44pm

Kelly Slater gets 'nooked'(cut-off) and is relegated to live in the 'wake' of Greg Webber. Slater's 'late take-off' doesn't begin to explain the amount of energy, dollars and time lost trailing behind a patent holder.
Wave pools will be great for those willing to subject themselves to extremely polluted waters, and the ever increasing crowd factor.
Fun? Not likely.

my signature

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stunet commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 10:46pm

Steve (and others),

I interviewed Greg a week or so back and many of the questions being asked are answered in that interview. It'll go up on Swellnet early-mid this week. Of course, Greg may jump on and answer those questions individually in this thread.

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norv commented Saturday, 19 Nov 2011 at 11:02pm

Yeah Greg,it's NW... it would be nice if this wave was close enough to the island, with a nice steep beach, so the skimboarders could just run, drop, and slide into it :) It would also be nice if you had a death ray that automagically detected SUPs, and nuked them into the next galaxy..

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johnl commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 12:42am

Hi Greg,

I've been closely following the new concepts and developments of wave pools, artificial surfing reefs, and surf parks for years and I truly believe that yours could be the one to revolutionize the surfing world as we know it. The progress your company is making towards the inevitable introduction of world class artificial waves is exciting to say the least and I know I'm not the only one ready to line up for my first barrel in a pool!

There's the Seagaia Ocean Dome (closed), Disney's Typhoon Lagoon, Ron Jon's Surf Park by ASR (not happening), American Wave Machines, Whitewater West Industries, Murphy's Waves, Wavegarden, and the list goes on... The perpetual wave that your team has created with the circular designed wave pool seems to produce the highest quality waves and makes the most viable business sense out of any concept or model I have seen thus far. Considering that once the system is in motion it will create its own momentum and significantly improve efficiency I believe your wave pools will be a part of surfing's future.

Surfing, tourism, marketing, and business development are my passion. Please feel free to let me know if you are interested in adding a US based client development agent to your team. Anything I can do to help make this dream a reality for the international surfing community would be a privilege well worth living for.

Take care Greg and I wish you and the Webber Wave Pools team a barreled and stoked future!

Best Regards,
John [email protected]

John L

tylerdurden's picture
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tylerdurden commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 2:11am

John, out of interest, given that you seem to know a bit about Greg's business model, have a go at answering this one:
How many people per day at and what cost per person would need to use the wave pool in order for it to turn a profit?
And at this profit how long would it take Greg to pay off the $10000000 plus construction costs before he is finally in front?

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bob_s commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 5:53am

@tylerburdon , I don't have any stake in either but you can see what wavegarden and liquidtime give for their financial models on their websites. How about you do that and get back and tell us all what you think? I
couldn't be bothered myself but I would be interested to know what the numbers are?

bob_s

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johnl commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 8:21am

Hi Tyler, Bob and everyone else reading this,

Glad to see some interest in the business feasibility of wave pools & surf parks. There are quite a few factors to consider here in terms of break even points and profit potential. Just want to let you know at this point - this is only a small intro answer to your question. I'll do my best to follow up and give you an estimate of a BEP and profitability on just the pool in the near future. Currently 2am in the states and I can't say my intellectual capabilities are at their finest at this hour. That being said...

There are a seemingly endless array of possibilities beyond the wave pool itself in terms of revenue generation. Aside from the obvious revenue sources of single admissions/passes/memberships to the wave pool and vendor leasing to a surf shop, restaurant, bar, retail shops, etc...we must also consider the multiple uses of such a facility and the demographics that a surf park/wave pool can cater to.

Surf Lessons, Surf Coaching, Surf Camps, Surf Tourism (Overnight lodging owned and operated or leased out by the surf park for traveling participants/users has the potential to have a very high profit margin), Retail Sales, Equipment Rentals, Ding Repair, Food & Beverage (Think of all those mom's, dad's, grandparents, that all want their kids to be the coolest/best athletes that will hang out and buy drinks/meals while watching poolside). A restaurant/bar combo has the potential to be a huge revenue generator by itself. This could be leased or operated in-house. This is only the beginning...

When it comes to location & the atmosphere created by your surroundings...how much better does it get than having a huge indoor atrium with world class waves, a healthy/fit average customer base, a stoked vibe, and 24/7 - 365 access to top it all off! The 'Surf Culture' and image associated with the surfer lifestyle has become quite popular and has gained a massive foothold in international markets over the past decade. These facilities could be a small part of a much larger picture. Check out the Venture Extreme project proposed in London for even more ideas - (http://www.venture-xtreme.com/page/surf.cfm) How about beach volleyball courts setup on the middle island and holding comps/leagues year round? An event/concert venue? Corporate retreats, conference facilities (what better place to start holding the MASSIVE surf expo?), movie premieres, art shows, fashion shows (Miss Reef anyone?). Fitness centers, add a salon for the surfer grom mom's, the list goes on....

-Sponsorships/advertising space could be sold or rented to local companies, corporations, etc...

-Developments and communities could be built with the wave pool as the focal point. (55+ retirement communities - Old Guys Rule)

-Municipalities/Cities could build the surf parks (They're already building skateparks, ski resorts, public golf courses, etc...)

This first part of my response is just to be sure we are taking the big picture of this concept into account. A wave pool is truly only the beginning of something much larger at play. Any worthy endeavor in this world will involve significant risks. That's part of the fun.

I'll be back tomorrow to follow up with you guys. Please feel free to leave any thoughts, ideas, or comments~

Best Regards,
John

John L

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lolo commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 10:27am

Thanks for that John.

Its the one question I've always had with the wave pool concept. Without a clue as to the numbers involved, it seems like the set up costs will be huge and the day to day costs aren't going to be cheap either. Power, staff, maintenance etc all seem like they will be expensive to keep a facility up and running.

Is there a hypothetical model for just how many surfers can use the actual wave pool per hour or day? How long does a "wave" last? Do you charge by the wave, by the hour, by the day, yearly memberships? What happens when someone falls off a wave? Does the whole thing need to be shut off or is there a safe way to recycle them? I could go on for hours, its fascinating to hopefully see it play out.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 11:44am

Barley: the nature of patents is so complex it is probably regarded as the most obscure form of law on earth and as a result open for misunderstanding by anyone all the way up to the actual examiners themselves. The idea of changing something by a small percentage is only about design patents which protect against exact copies of a shape. It is a very easy patent to get but not strong to defend unless the shape is pretty much copied like making a mold of one of Coke's plastic bottles for example. The other types of patents are about describing the new thing in a number of ways, and is a zillion times more complex. When there is a new field the examiners have to look for novelty and true newness in something that may not even exist yet. The elements may be known but when these standard things are aligned together in some new way, and this new combination is novel enough, and it affords some significant improvement in the known methods or better still transforms the known methods, then maybe the examiner will tick a few boxes. Sometimes people notice a new patent and try to re word things, change some basic elements or even diminish the patent they have noticed, in order to either reduce the strength of that patent and/or get their one passed, so that they can make and sell something which is similar to the patent that they liked the look of. This is just business. You get no extra points for being an eccentric creative person who's been working on it for years, that is just meaningless, and in fact being emotional about someone potentially copying "your" design ends up being very distracting to 99% of the creative people out there. People and companies try to steal IP all over the world, but if you're lucky your list of claims stand up. Also, beyond patents the strength of the group who are perfecting the design, also comes down to being able to understand the dynamics so deeply that there is a very high degree of certainty of getting it right first time. Luckily we have made boat wakes up to 1m and recorded them breaking on a range of gradients from 1:15 to 1:3, Waikiki to Teahupoo. If our first pool were to be for a water park at the Goldy for example, and it made 1.5M waves then we are virtually at scale anyway. We are not just taking film of 100mm high waves and hoping it will handle the 20 fold jump to 2m. The phenomenally exhaustive testing and analysis, most of it by by Steven Schmied, has been about all the normal relationships of hull shape, angle, draft, beam, depth below the hull, velocity, position and shape of the island, but most critical of all, how these known things all get slightly distorted when you make wakes in curved (circular) paths. There was no science on this anywhere on earth. We got our research grant because of that fact. The bonus comments by the Australian Government readers, who assessed the grant application, also show that the project is scientifically feasible and commercially viable, and potentially good for Australia. The proportion of the grant amount accepted, as compared to what is asked by the applicant was one of the highest percentages in the history of tassie uni. So in a way, it's not just Greg Webber who is connected to this concept.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 12:50pm

waitlongtime: yes patents are a hassle, but if the developer can't have confidence in a competitor not being able to opening up shop next door with an exact copy of what he's just built, then they wont spend millions of dollars on a new project nobody has seen yet. Even if the figures look good. In fact the figures actually look too good, so good that some business analysts pretty much laugh at the figures. But if, (OK I'm just saying IF not guaranteeing anything here) 1000 surfers can catch 12 x 30 second rides each per day, as is possible in a 10 wave pool 10 hours a day, this then means that with ten waves breaking all the time at $3 per 30 second wave, or $30 for the ten 30 second waves that being ridden, you can work on $1 per second for the pool. Which equates to $60/minute or $3600/hour and $36,000 per 10 hour day, $252,000/week, $12.6m/year. However, seeing that surfers will surf before and after work then it's likely to have solid demand before and after work justifying being open from 6am till 10 at night if it's under lights. This gives 20 hours for the owner to even out their throughput graphs, so that they'll hopefully end up at at 50%. But I think they will be full all day. In the middle of the day all the dudes on the dole or those who have flexible jobs or are on shiftwork or those who are depressed and have a doctors prescription to surf twice a day paid by the government, will all be out there! Just remember if it's only $3 per 30 second perfect wave, even 3 of them, guaranteed yours, would still be worth it. The only reason that it can be this cheap is because the energy costs per wave are so small. It's incredibly efficient. The old way of lifting huge volumes of water and dropping them are 10 to 20 times less efficient. Not twice, over 10 times. Mix huge numbers of waves, with a fair pricing rate and you will have a good income, but beyond that you will have created a fucking scene. As if there wont be girls allover the place, because they can get their waves at last. So with that highly animated scene,which comes from 10 perfect waves breaking at once, surf retail and all other retail will congregate.
The reason it has taken years is because we have done it with next to no money, compared to what would have been needed to do it in one year. All done on engineers and managers unpaid spare time, grant money,some gutsy investors, and draining the crap out of Webber surfboards. Luckily during our research we discovered another type of wave pool which we will initiate research on within three months, and we will also be developing a super low volume low cost artificial reef, which is cheap to install and critically is removable at low cost to satisfy environmental concerns. Oh yeah, and something nutty for the skate world as well. So if we get one pool built soon, then there will be a cascade of new stuff. Some of it has been in my head un-patented for 20 years, until very recently.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 1:09pm

oh yeah, waitlongtime, we are not even considering changing the bottom contours to control wave shape, we don't need to. We have designed a gradient which increases in steepness from shallow gradient near the island to a steeper and steeper gradient as you go deeper. make a small wave, and it breaks only where it's shallow enough, near the island, and so it's a soft small wave. make the biggest wave and it can break further away from the island where the gradient is way steeper, so it tubes it's head off. The middle zone is for a medium sized bowling rippable wave. So there is variation written into the shape itself. BUT! with slight increases in speed and hull draft we can make waves increase in size very quickly, even in bursts so that we can make sections form. These lumps can be back doored on larger waves that are tubing already, or used as ramps to do aerials off on medium that have thinner lips and vertical faces.. The variable bottom contours you mentioned are only helpful if the pool uses the one wave at a time method, with the wall being perpendicular to the wave direction, which cannot be controlled as well as the waves we are making, which are at an angle to the wave direction. As a result of that angle, we can move the breakpoint of waves closer to or further from the island by wave size variations only, and thereby influence their shape, because the contours vary radially.

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 1:12pm

Hi John, will email to chat, thanks for your comprehensive response!! saved me writing it!

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 1:19pm

Hi Norv, yeah, nice idea, both of them! Maybe give the skimboarders giant rubber coated slippery dips to screech down at 40km/hr to blast into the wave face. No point in SUP's in the alround pool design I think. But I'm sure you could design a pool that would suit them perfectly. Very even unchanging gradient, not too steep so there's wall and more wall, and more wall still!

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Greg Webber commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 2:49pm

Hi Thermalben, I have heard of a guy up there with a reef design. But no idea of the design itself. I'll check it out, thanks.

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s-r commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 8:08pm

Think theres not something out there that would probably outstrip everything thats being dreamed up?...Stu - to add some serious background and cred to the future, talk to the guy who runs Heaven on earth surf camp in Indo. I know it sounds far fetched but do some research and see.

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shaun's picture
shaun commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 8:23pm

All you guys who think that wavepools are going to ease overcrowding are going to be disappointed as once they get going surfing will no doubt be the number one sport in the world and once all these people learn in the pool they will get bored and want to surf all the waves in the surf magazines, you reckon there are some wally's getting around the line ups these days, well there are going to be some classics coming out of the new wave pool culture. Glad I'll be well dead by then, it will be funny to watch though.

I'm the scab you keep picking off and is there again the next day.

s-r's picture
s-r's picture
s-r commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 8:36pm

correction....heaven on the planet..

tylerdurden's picture
tylerdurden's picture
tylerdurden commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 9:06pm

From an independent observers point of view, to me it seems the biggest problem is getting the first one built.
I think every one reading this, and Greg himself, will not be confident that the pool will work until the first surfer catches the first wave and says that it is good.
As an example, what if you get dizzy riding the waves?
They go around in circles with a constantly changing background in your peripheral vision, so you may find that nobody can ride the wave for any more than a couple of minutes until they come down with an acute attack of vertigo.
Also, I am guessing that the centripetal force will drag you to the outside when you fall off and who knows, you may find that people are pinned up against the outer wall (in deep water) every time they fall off.
So therefore, it may turn out that the pool needs to be turned off every single time someone falls of.
Until a full scale version is built and people are riding it, none of this can be really known.
Even if none of this occurs, and the wave is perfect, one bad spinal injury and the pool is jeopardy of being shut down.
So who is going to take these unknowns on without a full scale version being built and tested by real people?
The economic viability of the internal island lends itself to the pool being incorporated into a theme park.
For example, a stand alone pool needs at least 200m x 200m of land plus a car park and all the approvals from council re zoning etc. Ie. It pretty well has to be out in the sticks. The attraction of going to a fancy restaurant or hanging out there watching the surfers is certainly diminished the further out it is.
So if Greg wants other people to buy his pool and have his company build it (as his website suggests) then he probably has to take the punt, come up with ten million and knock one up himself to show everybody it works.
Then of course, the wave has to be good enough for people to make the journey out wherever the pool is in order for the retailers on the island turn a profit. Therefore, a stand alone park will struggle unless the surfing experience is truly great.
If he can convince a theme park to part with some serious cash before a surfer has actually caught a wave on one, then I will take my hat off to him.
Good luck!

victor's picture
victor's picture
victor commented Sunday, 20 Nov 2011 at 11:24pm

t durden. hoping to get steve schmied and richard pierce on board to answer your questions....greg can we?

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andrewrowe commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 12:24am

I wish you every success Greg.
Just looked at your website and with the team you have supporting and advising you I have every confidence that you will have some success getting the pools built eventually.
In my opinion, at the outset, trying to sell the pool to new developments and/or parks might be a tough one. Someone's going to have to take a big risk, and sure someone in the UAE or China might do it once (they've built crazier things), but you need more than that for ultimate success.
If you can get a temporary one built for a major professional event-type demonstration/competition (even inside a stadium) with a sponsor/event promoter willing to stump up the money required for construction/temp permits, you and the promoter could sell the tv rights for some good money and give you the exposure and cash necessary to be able to develop and sell the thing that would give it true longevity...operating franchises.
Very few developers/shopping centres/councils etc are likely to want to pay for a pool that doesn't come with its own operations/maintenance organisation - (they don't know how to run it, and don't want to take the risk on it if it fails). Franchisees on the other hand might be wealthy entrepreneurs who have sold their old business and now want to surf all day - now they can. They come to you, you help them through the financial analysis and process, build the pool for them, teach them how to run it and then support them in marketing through by doing the televised competitions with sponsors.
That's how I would try and make it happen, but there's many ways it might work - just know that you're probably going to have to keep tweaking it to make it work.
I wish you every success.

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bornagainst's picture
bornagainst commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 12:53am

It's important to realise that a patent is little more than a key to the court room, and entering that room comes at a very steep cost: here in Australia, the average cost of a patent infringement action is around $750K, and that's not taking into account the cost of appeal proceedings. The grant of a patent is no guarantee that the patent is valid either: once granted, a patent may subsequently be revoked and a great many are. Moreover, less than 5 percent of patented inventions ever make it to the market. In other words, getting a patent is only the beginning, rather than the end, of the battle. Likewise, Slater's difficulties in obtaining a patent for his concept doesn't mean he's shut out of the market or that Greg will prevail: he and his backers may still attempt to attack the validity of Greg's patent, or invent around it. Either way, it will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

bob_s's picture
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bob_s commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 1:59am

@bornagainst, it really stinks and can cloud the issue regarding investment.

A patent is supposed to give certainty with proof of concept provide the basis to say "list' on the stock exchange to raise capital so that the concept can proceed.

I know of a huge multinational that just takes inventions develops them into products and says to the patent holder "just sue us" routinely.

There should be laws that don't allow the free market system to be abused this way.

The ultimate irony like suing a council is that they use your money to pay their continually delaying tactic legals.

Dont you love the legal system?

bob_s

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 2:10am

I've added a new video to the end of the story above, but may as well link here as well. It's a promo-type vid by Webber Wave Pools featuring wake testing at Yamba with Asher Pacey plus discussions with the eggheads at the Australian Maritime College where they are conducting tests. Worth a watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27uTryEpznY

scot's picture
scot's picture
scot commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 3:44am

I think the old trots and dogs raceway at kirra would be a great place to put one. big enough space in a high surfing population.

finback's picture
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finback commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 8:06am

Thanks stunet for the link. I'm in the education business. I walked into a classroom this morning and the student teacher was conducting a reading activity re researching the word "patent" after reading an article about Guglielmo Marconi ( The invention of the radio signal)

After reading the above comments over the weekend I could give the Year 6 students a modern day version of how and why people apply for a patent.

Yes some of the students are surfers, they live on the Clarence river, their father's own prawn trawlers so tomorrow they can watch the link on the Interactive Whiteboard in the classroom and I can help inspire them tp maybe become a research scientist or a fisherman with a second income creating waves on the Clarence.

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moff-tenkson commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 11:19am

Just thought I'd add my two cents.... take heed from the lesson learnt in Japan - great pool, really ripable wave with a tube section, closed due to lack of interest. They'd put it opposite the beach! Given a choice any surfer would pick being in nature... so don't give them the choice, location is paramount.
Good luck.

z-man's picture
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z-man commented Monday, 21 Nov 2011 at 1:55pm

"POLIO PONDS" are highest on my short list of things to avoid.

Good riddance to bad ideas. This one tops the charts!

my signature

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bob_s commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 7:19am

Stunet said "plus discussions with the eggheads at the Australian Maritime College where they are conducting tests. Worth a watch."

"In the slang of the United States, egghead is an anti-intellectual epithet, directed at people considered too out-of-touch with ordinary people and too lacking in realism, common sense, virility, etc. on account of their intellectual interests. The British equivalent is boffin.[1]" source Wikipedia

Ummm Stuart I think that it is not your place to put labels on respectable, qualified and experienced people that represent the intellect of this product? Looking at the definition of the name you called them it called also be defamatory and libellous to the persona. Since when does the moderator need moderating for his posts? These people cannot defend themselves because of their position so it also could have a lack of courage associated with posting the name call. You can call me PC but I just think its unbecoming of Stuart.

btw an EPITHET is An abusive or contemptuous word or phrase. "the term is commonly used as a simple synonym for term of abuse or slur, as in There is no place for racial epithets in a police officer's vocabulary. This usage is accepted by 80 percent of the Usage Panel."

I'll put it down to childish and immature of you and unable to realize the consequences to others of what you think and say..

You surely can do better - talking like a kid ,an adolescent or homey doesn't make you "king of the kids"?

bob_s

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 7:38am

Ease up mate. Weren't you the one calling teenage surfers 'little darlings' the other day? I didn't cast any aspersions on you because I knew it was a light-hearted jibe. Well, what do you think mine was? A professor in a woollen vest with a Cambridge accent and Einstein hair was talking about the things that we love - waves - in a manner you don't often hear it spoken. I thought the juxtaposition humorous.

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bob_s commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 8:52am

Dear Stuart

They were someone's "little darlings" that's indisputable fact. I thought of calling them "students of St Trinians". Thats tongue in cheek lite hearted jibe - but factual demeaning terms of disrespect to accomplished professional people is another thing.

you seem to not realize that these guys are not eggheads, they train masters and navigators of supertankers and the like. I did a some maritime training and they and their like are worthy of the full respect that should be given to "people who should be listened to " - not publicaly mocked with a adolescent yet factually demeaning terms.. We may think we are smart because we can play on waves - but think of the onerous responsibilities of mastering a supertanker. Not many people up to doing that safely. Why did I listen and learn carefully to them in class - because my life at sea would depend on what I learnt.

It is an occasion when I thought something had to be said and I said it.

Sorry if you cant realise that then you may have some maturing to do. If we want people to have respect for those that know more than us and spend their lives teaching us for our own good we should fully respect that. As I said I fortunately learnt that long ago and made a choice to listen and learn instead of being an uninformed non-thinking idiot. (which at times I still may be -but we try our best)

btw - you can say what you like - I just don't want young people thinking that science is only for "eggheadz" when in reality its for anyone who wants to make things happen properly. yes including recreational activities.

Kind regards
Bob

bob_s

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 9:58am

Bob,

We're straying away from the wave pool, it was clearly a joke meant to lighten the tone. You've read it in purely literal terms and even tried to back yourself with Wikipedia references, which, incidentally, state that 'egghead' is the US equivalent of 'boffin'. Well, here's three recent headlines from the SMH:

-Boffin discovers new fish species
-Boffin wants Berrick's headgear call explored
- Aussie boffin cobbles together Get Smart shoe phone

No, I wouldn't expect they'd replace 'egghead' with 'boffin', what I'm trying to show you is how ridiculous it is to back your argument with Wiki quotes. And the fact you don't even know what 'boffin' means leads me to think you don't understand how egghead can be a term of endearment.

At work I sit next to one of the best surf forecasters/ocean scientists in the world - egghead.
Two seats up is a trained scientist and apprentice forecaster - egghead.
The whole office is full of meteorologists - egghead, egghead, egghead.

I like them all and respect their knowledge without question. Yet you seem to occupy a world were people can't enjoy friendly banter and also give due respect. More the pity you, Bob S.

tylerdurden's picture
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tylerdurden commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 10:07am

Stu, you might not believe this but I am with you on this one.
Paul Keating called his economist mates pointy heads and no one seemed to mind.
I'm still waiting to find out if you are going to get dizzy surfing around in circles.
10 people on the thing at a time?
If it is 4 foot and barreling that is going to be 9 perilous duck dives until your turn comes around again if you fall off.

p-funk's picture
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p-funk commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 10:09am

Any luck with the spruiking at the 'World Waterpark Trade Show' or whatever it was called Greg? (watched the Ch7 article after the vid Stu posted)

I didnt read the 'eggheads' as being disrespectful. Ive been called funnier names for a geek in my years as an Engineer. All in good fun....

p-funk's picture
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p-funk commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 10:42am

Tyler - Given the angle of incidence of the waves, I dare say you'd be washed onto the spinal injury friendly foam beach quicker than you can say bogged rail.

tylerdurden's picture
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tylerdurden commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 10:57am

Does that mean you think you will washed towards the inner island?
Wouldn't you think that the radial forces of the rotating water will push people who fall off to the outer wall?

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011 at 1:04pm

"Everything has its price these days, everything on Earth,
But no-one seems to know these days what anything is worth."

The ultimate commodification of surfing. Just another-pre packaged experience. Yes it's inevitable,but it's still pathetic.

ross's picture
ross's picture
ross commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 1:29am

GregW, I see you've been recieving alot of support on this article alone. As a surfer stranded in a location that can tend to lack in swell I'm personally stoked at the prospect of these pools (especially the 3 year time frame!).
It seems you're recieving plenty of offers for assistance, and, although I know little on dynamics and engineering, if you ever needed any design work done (*I'm an Industrial Designer)I'd be more than happy to volunteer to try and realise this epic dream.

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blindboy commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 4:47am

So you take out the search, the natural environment, reading the line up, the ocean life, the competition for a wave, the thrill of waking up to a classic swell etc etc and what you have left does not deserve to be called surfing. The closed nature of the experience, same wave every time, reduces it to some weird sort of gymnastics.
All very clever but wise? Where is the energy for this going to come from oh yeh burning coal, more climate change, more sea level rise, but we can rationalize that away after all it won't use much energy compared to whatever.
But where there's a dollar (or a Yuan) to be made all else sinks into insignificance.
Any takers on justifying this little extravagance?

rusty-moran's picture
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rusty-moran commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 6:46am

Bob-s = egghead.
Australians take the piss with each other and its really funny. Americans enjoy literal slapstick humour so its hard for seppoes to get good aussue humour.

fredie-c's picture
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fredie-c commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 7:31am

Hi blind boy, I agree with what you say, its really special to love and work with nature to reap a reward, but you lost me when you mentioned the competition for a wave!? and every good wave now has competition, yes if your the best or the biggest guy out there, yippiii ! At 63 i just want to be on a wave,.. F.. the Agro

And yes how many good wave locations have turned into a circus type community and how many are there left in their natural state!

s-r's picture
s-r's picture
s-r commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 8:19am

Two Cents worth --- I was fortunate to get an opportunity to ride the Malaysia wave pool for an hour, with one other , a few years ago...sort of a testing situation...was great fun, the wave was like 2 feet, left /right peeler ..caught 30 waves in the hour alternating left and right. The resort then showed us the expenses to run something like that...they were huge...and the next day we watched the two hour period the wave pool was switched on...with 25 in there ... it was a rabble....and it was still running at a massive loss....I concluded...these things will never (never say never!) work dollar wise....I also thought about waves more...seems like there's more waves being discovered all over the world --- see China last month...heaps of fun waves even there..SO.. I ASK MYSELF...are artificial waves really going to work when they cost a lot and their competitor, nature ...is a pure renewable source of energy that seems to exist everywhere there's an ocean?

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 8:25am

Well at 59 I am not as competitive as I once was, in both senses of the word, butt, given reasonable crowd density I still enjoy the game of hunting a wave in the pack. I know this approach offends some people but it was the culture I grew up in and has always seemed an essential part of the experience. Sitting there in a queue never appealed!

z-man's picture
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z-man commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 10:04am

@blindboy - not so blindboy!
At 65 and heading to Kandui for the first time in July for a month(3 consecutive tours) I find it difficult at best to consider a 'polio-pond' surfing arena.
Only my gal and me, in my hot tub.
Not freakishly bacteria-phobic - but this pushes the envelope.
Public pools of any sort? Not for me.

my signature

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bob_s commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 7:15am

hi Rusty-moran , taking the p and rippn each other off is good, fun and yes part of being ausssi. No problem with that. Me =egghead -no problem with that - I'm here and that means banter is non -optional . Banter with people you dont know or at distance - well call me old fashioned but thats something I am carefull with. But thats me and others can do and say as they like.

I did get offended very early days when i found that being a WASP is a reviled thing amongst some people in the States. I was bought up in AU thinking we were IT and the others all deserved reviled labels and tags. Call me a wasp nicely in banter and I dont care! When young I did used to get hurt when i was called a MIGRANT in mean tones - but that was just directed at me and anyone different and meant to hurt.

You need all the shields you can muster in a good rip off session with mates and that's ok in and out of the water. It can be unwise and sometimes very stupid to do it with people you don't know.

To prevent me getting kicked, back to topic .

Wavepools -when the real thing is available who would bother. But when its not -find a trawler and a river -or a wave pool? Its a pleasant thought to think endless perfection -who wouldn't get obsessed with chasing that dream? patents - everyone I know that got involved with that scene has ended up as dream traders not much ever really being produced of value. But sometimes it does happen well -look at Dyson the inventer, Stephen Jobs and his I-range of devices etc. ( labels -call me stupid but when in the States and invited too, I didnt have the time to meet him and wosniak in the early 80's when they were working in their garage, they were doing pacman and a kitchen bench gadget -i needed ANSI Fortran 1V -the technocrat I was. An Aussi called Rudi Hoess did take up the offer he came back and started Computerland Australia. All you Appleheads (who have always urinated sitting down) would know his story.) ;0)

The video clip at the marine Institute - umm sorry but my excitement meter dropped and the needle broke at the 0 stop. I think there is more to learn and research of value to surfing with the real boats and the river. Maybe for a fraction of the cost? free river surfing has become a global movement - unpatentable and free4all. Just google river surfing or combinations to find even how to make your own river wave - all homebrew.

There are so many things that can be found for free and clever marketing can commercialise it - competition then puts it in the consumers favour for lowest cost use and the better product choice?

You can learn your own science and then there will always be another better way of inventing a mousetrap. As someone said above -just be carefull for what you wish for with Peter Druoyn as an example . Who cares what label you want to put on peter?

?

bob_s

amb's picture
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amb commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:37am

HI Greg

Surely Adelade would be a good spot to install a park, considerring how many surfers live there and the lack of surf. Adelaide Airport has enough room and is very central. Surfing SA is considering building a flowrider at Glenelg..i'd much rather see one of these parks built. Thermal Ben would be able to back me up how desperate and to what extents Adelaide surfers go to get a pretty average wave. Cheers

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victor commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 12:28pm

amb. adelaide airport = noise. mclaren vale area perhaps,not far off the city ,mid coast ,victor harbour run.

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victor commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 12:42pm

nah. second thoughts not mclarenvale, landscape is way to toxic due to many years of vineyard spraying. 25years ago a midcoast surfer,entrepreneur john kingston had approval for a wave machine of sorts up by the irish pub on main sth rd noarlunga. by memory started with some earthworks but got changed to a toboggan run ? anyone recall it or know anymore what happened.?

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goob commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 1:41pm

take some inspiration from Ric Richardson and Uniloc's (so far successful) patent battle against Microsoft

best of luck

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vicco commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 8:25am

Man if one of these things are built in Melbourne are built they would make a killing.

Greg Webber's picture
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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 8:27am

I'll answer some questions tonight, and tomorrow morning. sorry for being out of contact. Let's keep Steven and Richard out of it at the moment. They are already so busy.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:21am

tylerdurden, You are on some crazy planet aren't you. Perceptive, creative yet with an almost dyslexic ability to get things back to front. Try to look at the movements of water with normal waves, draw some arrows where surfers end up after a wipeout and notice that all the movement is inwards towards the island at an angle. This is not a river with all the energy wanting to move towards the outer edges. The water is NOT moving, the waves are moving within the water. Only the water at the whitewash zone is moving and that's towards the wading pool that is just beyond the wet edge at the island centre. Diagonally, but opposite to the way you think it's going. To think that you thought that it is possible that surfers will be dragged towards the outside wall stops me from taking any other questions or comments seriously. Sorry mate.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:36am

damn, I'm going back on my word: Tylerdurden: Have you looked at the actual waves surfed in the river? Doesn't this kind of look like we are already making surfable waves?, and that we are doing it easily in no more than a semi controlled environment? So you think that when we effectively just copy that successful method and add thousands of hours of testing and analysis with some the best hydrodynamic minds in the country, not only will it get worse but maybe it wont't work at all? Gees, I better call them all up and tell them that maybe it just won't work.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:39am

Hi Andrew, thanks for the advice. All these points have been considered and resolved. Let's just wait and see.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:48am

Bornagain: some good points. But what would you rather have? A US patent accepted, or not? We also have other patents that add weight to our US patent, and some that are what I have envisaged someone might actually come up with to try to get around our design, without any breach at all. I have done this before with my curved fins, knowing that the key claim could be side stepped by merely segmenting the curve into three flat panels, thereby achieving a very similar result functionally but in that there is no gradually increasing curve it gets around my own patent. I made a prototype, photographed it, did a provisional patent and let it lapse.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:50am

sorry, bornagainst, got your name wrong.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:54am

Bob s: If the case is strong and the potential claim sufficiently chunky, then there will be law firms who might just act on a 30% to 40% commission. It happens.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:55am

Scot: Gees, that's a perfect location. What's it being used for now, and how far from the coast is it?

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 12:01pm

Moff: That pool made great waves, but created significant backwash after 5 mins and cost lots and lots to make the waves big and many of them. That old system lifts water up and drops it, not very efficient. We do so little to create bigger smoother waves that there is no comparison energy wise. We are talking less that 10% of their energy costs. And as for the beach nearby, you been there? I have it's a close out for many kilometers. I was actually at the first wave pool contest there that Fabio Gouvea won.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 12:07pm

Z-man: have you any idea how much water we have in our real surfing pools compared to the number of people?? It's over 100,000 litres per person! Maybe in the smaller kiddies versions with twenty 0.5 meter waves you could get close to a public swimming pool for humans per volume of water, but the entire outside 80% of the pool is without people, and there are gaps between them anyway. Non issue I think.

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Greg Webber commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 12:28pm

P funk, yeah got some keen interest from the trade show for sure. It's not that easy even for engineers to understand the principle so we lose people on that fact alone. watching the wake surfing helps, but then it's not an actual pool so they lose the transfer from linear in the field, to circular model. Some people think that waves should go outwards away from the hull like wake surfers do, so that confuses people too. Thanks re Tyler answer too. Surfers will have nearly double the wave height in depth of water beneath them, so if Flowrider can survive as a business with only inches of water between surfer and the bottom surface, then we should have far less drama in this regard.

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adamweathered commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 7:19pm
tylerdurden's picture
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tylerdurden commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 10:10pm

Greg, with deepest respect, there are a couple of points you have glossed over. The whitewater is definitely moving in a circular fashion.
What direction is the water moving at the outer edge of the whitewater, where it meets the unbroken part of the wave?
You will have rotating whitewater at the centre of the pool, yet you think that immediately on the outside of this the water will not be rotating at al??
Of course the unbroken water will be rotating, just depends on by how much.
And will you get dizzy essential surfing in a circle with a constantly moving background in your peripheral vision?
So before you dismiss me as a dyslexic crackpot, I think that these valid points are things that you have to seriously consider before you build the first pool.
I genuinely mean it: good luck, and seriously consider doing the Australian Institute of Company Directors Course.
I have no connection whatsoever with the AICD but have done the course and it is a very humbling reality check

victor's picture
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victor commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 10:38pm

tyrlerdurden. mate you worry to much...i really dont think the engineers on this project would have overlooked anything. will webber [yes another webber] has some fine surfboards on his site......the lithium model. the prozac. and the lexapro....get yourself one.....and enjoy the calming placebo effect.....peace brother.

bob_s's picture
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bob_s commented Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 at 11:34pm

Victor, you forgot the "bex and a lie down". then all the other legitimate and not so legal substances from then to now? A oxygen in a deep breath is my choice of calming substance. "What do youse want" at the shop counter, and "she'll be right mate" have their place but not when large business, money and reputation is concerned?

Seriously though, I know that it could be a "fatal" lack of due diligence of anyone pursuing a successful career not to be fully aware of all important compliance issues. In the water, out of the water and most importantly in the boardroom or at the desk. Then they take informed choices (if they are competent and capable to). Unfortunately that's reality -I am afraid and its tough going - no beer and skittles there for anyone's 'neverland".

It all revolves around listening to the people whose life it is to know these things to the best practice available. My view has been ( since I realised) that they are so important as to not show them one iota of disrespect and to listen and take notes intently. ( unless they are nobs of course and then they invite it and we move on).

But that's me -we all make our own choices as we are entitled to.?

ps tyler forget paul keating as a role model. i will pass on PD as well.

bob_s

sv_surfer's picture
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sv_surfer commented Thursday, 24 Nov 2011 at 3:02am

Greg,

If you need financing, you can probably crowdsource some amount of funding from a site like www.kickstarter.com. I know that I would be interested in helping you commercialize your patent (and surf some killer waves).

Steve

evo62's picture
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evo62 commented Thursday, 24 Nov 2011 at 6:46am

It was interesting to read the Surfline article from Kelly Slater's perspective.

But the big thing that I'm wondering is....

After watching the Surfing behind the trawler on the Clarence, it appears easy to fall off the back of the wave and you've missed it totally, One wrong move and there goes your chance. the person on the wave following mine is probably not going to be too happy if I start paddling for that one, or if I am in his way as I scramble to the side. He paid for his 30 seconds, Dammit!!!

algreen's picture
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algreen commented Thursday, 24 Nov 2011 at 9:31am

I have been reading these post for days now and half of them must be written by grumpy old men posing as blokes who still ride. I have never heard such negativity and bitching and whinging in my life.

You whinging whining people should be backing greg webber all the way to do a wave pool just to see if it works instead of being so negative. I find it depressing just to know that people like you influence others who really don’t want to hear what you have to say. Honestly what is wrong with you people? I’ll bet that you whinge and whine all of the time? If so then I pity all of the people that are exposed to you? You remind me of the sort of people who try to ruin something for everyone else just because they weren’t invited or included.

Greg with the grumpy old men’s negative scepticism that I have been reading in all of the posts I think that you should give the whole idea away. The wave pool will then become a distant memory and no one will ever know if it would have worked or not.

With all of the extra time on your hands you could start campaigning against the development of those new fangled ideas I have heard of like bungy jumping, abseiling, kayaking, horse racing and all forms of athletics. Could you imagine the costs of setting up athletics fields and the chance that someone might fall down and hurt themselves and all the while not knowing if they will work or not?. Can you imagine the insurance liabilities if someone skins a knee while running? We should also stop any development of public swimming pools We all know that the old crik and swimming hole is all that we have ever needed. We can stop all development of ski fields because sometimes it just doesn’t always snow as much as is needed to run a ski field and what the hell are those things called snowboards? Hell they can never work, what a stupid idea. Hell again I have just thought - can we ban trying to walk on two legs. I’d much rather not try anything like that or encourage anyone else to try it, it really is a bit dodgy and dangerous isn’t it? To avoid walking on two legs it would be much better if someone took the horse and buggy that many people want to continue to use (grumpy old men) and somehow put some sort of device in the buggy that would propel it along, we could call that thing a motor and the thing that we put it in a motor vehicle (brilliant) Hang on forget that I suggested that idea, it would never catch on and would be far too dangerous – no one would ever get in one of them.

Honestly all I seem to be reading is bitching. Reading your posts is like the deafening sound of a whining old woman. No one wants to read your negative crap. I and others love reading about the plan for the first one but dopes like you whining, whinging and bitching are working in the opposite direction. So either shut up or get on board and watch it happen or just piss off – please.

rees0's picture
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rees0 commented Thursday, 24 Nov 2011 at 10:21am

algreen, that sounds alot like whinging and whining to me. Maybe you should think a little before commenting and read the posts a bit more carefully...

algreen's picture
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algreen commented Thursday, 24 Nov 2011 at 12:47pm

rees0
I have read all of the post again and you should do the same. You'll find as I have that most writers are very supportive but there are a few people who are just straight out negative nit pickers. They are the ones that stood out enough to make want to write that damning email.
For those people my accusations stand.

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george-peach commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 1:22am

Grumpy old men = trolls. More astro turfing going on here than in the whole of western Sydney. Go GW!

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medi2med commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 2:13am

Can't someone invent this wave already...so we can all surf it...lol!

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tylerdurden commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 5:33am

Algreen, you may think that my comments are negative but in actual fact they have been very poorly addressed by Greg.
If he had never even considered them before but now has then overall it may actually be beneficial.
Can you logistically put 10 people on 10 separate waves and not get a 10 person pile up at some point?
Greg says it won't happen because the surfer on the wave behind should be able to comfortably avoid you...except of course if he is a beginner. He expects over 1000 people to use the pool per day so plenty of them will be beginners.
Will you get dizzy surfing around in circles with a moving background 20m away?
Unknown and unanswered. If you do and you fall off, then you will find yourself underwater, dizzy with no way of knowing which way is up.
The whitewater will be rotating, the water immediately outside this will be rotating yet Greg seems to think there is no way the resultant centripetal force will force you to the outside.
He has refused to address my questions on the basis of my supposed lack of knowledge of waves and fluid dynamics.
He is the director of the company and is making extremely optimistic statements, such as "100% certain" in response to Tim Bakers questions as to whether he thinks the full scale version will work.
He also has said on this site that preliminary estimates are $36000 income PER DAY from surfers using his pool, let alone extra income from use of the central island.
If a director makes optimistic statements on the public record that don't come close to fruition then disgruntled investors who have been misled will sue him quicker than you can say "rotational centripetal forces pushing you to the outer wall" or even "tautology".
In his interview with Stu he says that a private investor is willing to have him build one for private use. Christ, it takes 6 months to get council approval to put up a tin shed. Does he think he is going to have the council approval to knock one up in this guys backyard within the next two years??
Look, there is optimism, encouragement, positivity and then there is reality.
You may not believe it but I do actually wish him well, and I hope he doesn't go broke or insane in his quest to build the thing.

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fitzroy-21 commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 6:14am

Tyler,

I don't think you quite grasp the effects of rotating water. I'm not a scoller or anything like that, it is pure observation. Think of what happens in a wirl pool. If you don't belive that, get a round kiddies pool, throw a hand full of dirt in it and walk round in the pool for a few minutes to develop a small wirlpool effect. Step out and watch were all the dirt collects.

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victor commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 6:22am

tdurden. be carefull ,we dont want you getting dizzy....

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larry1981 commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 6:41am

tdurden,
although the pool is a circular do you really think people will get dizzy? my senses tell me it will feel similair to any bending wave. So lets get behind GW and back him all the way.

All the best to you greg. Keep up the positive work. Im frothing just mindsurfing the place. As for the natural v's manmade criticism, well leave it up to the individual to decide for themselves.

If GW can do this im backing him for PM!

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 6:42am

Tyler,

Another question for you. Do you get dizzy on a merrygoround?

How do indy car drivers prevent dizziness on a circular race track?

Spinning on the spot vs going around at a slow pace in a large circle. Surely you can work that out.

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blindboy commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 6:43am

I expect that given the scientific input the pool will work better than existing models but that is not a very high bar. If we consider the energy aspects for a moment there are a couple of issues that no-one has yet addressed. The energy of any moving object is directly proportional to its mass. The volume of a wave increases roughly as the cube of its height. Double the wave height and the mass is about eight times greater.....and so is your energy use. The energy also increases at the square of its forward speed. As we all know this is critical in wave quality. My point is the energy required to generate a large fast moving wave is going to be orders of magnitude greater than that necessary to produce a small slow moving one.
If the business model is based on attracting existing surfers rather than play pool people the energy costs rise dramatically. Then there is the fact that global energy costs are rising above the background inflation rate and are likely to continue to do so. The predicted pricing therefore would seem to be overly optimistic.
As I stated before I really dislike the wave pool concept for what might be called philosophical and environmental reasons but beyond that I would want to see a much more detailed energy analysis before I would believe that this type of structure can generate world class waves at anything less than prices prohibitive to widespread, regular use.

bob_s's picture
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bob_s commented Friday, 25 Nov 2011 at 6:51am

tyler durden, can I ask what you do for a living? What is your training and experience in?
Maybe you are jumping the gun a little with logistics questions ? sometime they will be asked and answered to the satisfaction of people before they part with money ?

but I think getting interest amongst everybody in their (both GW and Ks) visions is what they are about. The visions are grand and stimulating - actual logistics of operations -well we don't even know the cost of construction yet? I somehow think that they are both looking for a seriously wealthy benefactor that will feel his life fulfilled by parting with a blank check. I would like to know his name when they find him? Thats cool as well as it has happened before with artists and sculptors. look at the Medici family - they had Michelangelo as their private in house artist. Like today's equivalent of a digital camera - hey miky boy can you do me a bust today -I have the morning free. If you go to the Medici tomb in Florence all mikeys work is there. Ahh benefactors where are they when you need one?

bob_s

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bloodyimmigrant commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 1:32am

Greg,

Do you need a project manager with the balls and experience to pull off a project like this? If so, I would love to be a part of vision like this!

BI

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tylerdurden commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 2:17am

Bob, I have studied some physics during my post grad studies but I am not a physicist.
I am on the board of directors of a company that controls about $40 000 000 worth of turnover per year. This is an unpaid role and not my primary profession.
I had to do the AICD course as part of joining the board.
The course is not the answer to everything but is a good and convenient way to learn a lot about corporate responsibility in a short space of time. Misleading investors either purposefully or through lack of appropriate due diligence will see a director in a world of pain very quickly, something that by the sounds of it I do not need to tell you.
Greg on the other hand probably needs it spelt out to him.
It's not the end of the world for Greg as Kelly Slater has got the same problems in developing his pool as well ie he will not really know what it will be like until a full scale model is built.
The difference is that Kelly does have a rich benefactor with bottomless pockets: Quiksilver.
I hope Greg builds his first and is successful over Kelly but I will put a quiet bet on that neither of them will be anywhere near as successful as they imagine, if they are built at all

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 2:50am

Well I think we saw with the Rossignol debacle that Quik doesn't have bottomless pockets.

That little misadventure almost sunk them.

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bob_s commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 6:16am

tyler and freeride -maybe you both have something to offer in the Powerplant initiative?
NFP and NGO doesn't mean that people and people with products to sell don't get paid?

Just a way forward that has had much of the groundwork literally and factually ) done 30 years ago.
Tyler check out my verbose posts on the other story.

I don't for a moment want to be seen as "upstaging" or "hijacking" STU, KELLY or GEG in this story - but instead hoping to see if one can assist to progress their products as part of an existing initiative -if its possible?

Tyler - your and anyone's interest in participating is welcome. WE are not into elitism or exclusion just into sustainable progress that has real benefits for everyone.

bob_s

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freeride76 commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 7:39am

Bob, I have absolutely no idea about the project you are pitching.

Could you outline it in one paragraph.

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bob_s commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 9:03am

When Eraring power plant was built an Olympic standard white-water course was part of the cooling water exit. Six pumps each 21cu m of water a second through the condensers to cool the pure steam so it can be boiled again. It exists as warmed, screened, aerated water 21x6 cu metres per second. Now 21cum is a lump of water about the size of a 3mx3m room. That is a continuous wave of water flows out that is a "square wave" 2.1m high and 6x3m wide. That’s like DC in electricity -a flat line of continuous elevated energy. Now what a "inverter" in electricity does is convert DC to AC , AC is a sine wave like ocean waves. So a DC continuous elevated voltage may be "inverted' by the exact same analogous devices in electronics to a sine wave 10s period that will be 10x18 m wide and 2.1 or more crest. Or 5x18m wide and 4.2 m crest (simplified). Am already losing you?
Ok the water flow of energy represents 2/3 of the coal burnt and can be "inverted" to waves and also used for any other white-water sport there is. Ive been on councils coast and estuary committee for 10 years and know the problem this water causes to the environment. $40m was just spent digging a hole to store water to allow peak heat to be controlled by law it must be below 35C or the generators must stop slow down or whatever.
Land and infrastructure was put aside (next to a state recreation complex at Myuna bay) to allow the white-water park to proceed. But it didn’t. My assertion is that surfing will underpin all the other water sports and the water is pure and warm enough all year round for them all.
Progress with the authorities has been made but EVERYONE now has to say we want it.
Deep water standing waves are the first step then onwards to whatever can be done.
just do the sums on the water flow of warm, screened and aerated water that represents 2/3 of the coal burnt and you will say "bingo" that’s too much to waste when it should be turned to good. Our local surfing research group is seeking the rights as not for profit and the return should go in paying everyone, benefiting the community (it owns the cooling water) , sorting some of the environment damage it does and of course a full size ocean research facility in the lake (just one bay -point to point) can solve how many beach behaviour problems? Call me dreaming but moonshot started with a Chinese firework? We are on the way in this planning but the sale of the generators means we (community) need to get our interest locked in before the generators are sold. We don’t want to deal with say a foreign bank to pay for what we already own and has done heaps of damage in the past. None of this is rocket science all well developed past public domain innovation. Time for surfers (everyone who loves the ocean for fun) to put their hands up and stake our claim. What is missing from liquid time’s research is the tourism research. 250,000 tourists come to NSW each year seeking a surfing experience. It’s my assertion that after two weeks at a full size facility with say noosa breaks (every point) and more. They can have that experience and know what their capabilities are in the ocean. The important thing is that they keep well below those capabilities in both manners and conditions with other surfers. Thats my vision on how to turn waste to good. Now we can structure the reefs so that they grow macro algae and continually harvest as the water is warm and nutrient rich. Macro algae is a important component for many new process's in making diesel fuel.
Sorry one paragraph is not enough.
Any other form of wave maker/generator may have a place in the evolution of this 21'st century recycling feature it’s a matter of supplying a framework and asking for expressions of interest for things that can be done cheaply and quickly. He real strength is the existing flow of water and then a full size set of surfing breaks. The microclimate should be set up so that a year round subtropical rainforest environment dominates.
Its my assertion that 2/3 of the coal that is burnt must be used to provide a return to solve problems. The best way I know is recreation providing the funding to solve the issues. Sorry hard line capitalists -no leer jets or helicopters here. Just fair return for what you provide. That is if we can beat the clock to ensure the community and environment gets the benefits of the water and land that has already been earmarked for recreation -long ago.
Now a major mistake is to think that the people who run the generators can be involved . Their job description excludes everthing other than keeping electricity going out. A failsafe system of non threat to operations is also imperative and possible.
10 years of investigations, consultations and research is a difficult thing to put into one paragraph. Open source for anyone to contribute and thus benefit if it progress’s.

bob_s

freeride76's picture
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freeride76 commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 9:39am

So you want to build a wavepool under a coal-fired power plant?

bob_s's picture
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bob_s commented Saturday, 26 Nov 2011 at 9:48am

white water rafting kayaking, canyoning and yes surfing location. Not a wavepool but a cloned synthetic surfing location. Full size and organic. location, warmed screened and aerated water exist. Surrounded by coal mines and power plant but already a state recreation location for schools all over the state. The word wavepool does nor really relate to the idea as the environment, energy and water all exist and have been previously earmarked for dynamic water sports. Penrith got built instead -as the premiers Dpt explained to me - a city not a state got the Olympics. Go to the recycled quarry in UK called the eden project to see what community can do.
I know an outback town that built its own wavepool -they had to turn the wavemaker to minimum as it sent waves to the next property. Marvellous what communities do when they put there minds to it. No i wont say where as its their secret.

bob_s

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kennethpk64 commented Sunday, 27 Nov 2011 at 3:08pm

Some doubt indeed about the circular motion and motion-sickness.
Personally, I think that all concepts that require a lot of energy for daily operation will not be commercially feasible in the end. Compared to a skate pool, this surfpool will require lots of energy on a daily basis.

It could be wise to look into this to be able to come up with a concept that requires the least amount of energy or even better generates energy. Perhaps combine it with a system that creates energy from potential energy and couple this wavepool to this as some kind of parasite/ side effect that uses the flowing water from the energy generating system.
Of course there will be some energy losses for the wave creation, but it might result in a higher efficiency compared to other concepts and thus minimal use of energy.

Not only commercial aspects are important here, but also one can look at environmental aspects. With shortage of energy becoming more and more an issue, what sense does it make to build dozens of surfpools?
So why not come up with something really clever that also fulfills a meaningful role in the environmental problems that we are currently facing? This would give your concept far more reason for existence and make it something that can be among us for a longer period of time.

I am curious to see if such a thing would be possible.

Good luck!

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kennethpk64 commented Sunday, 27 Nov 2011 at 3:08pm

Some doubt indeed about the circular motion and motion-sickness.
Personally, I think that all concepts that require a lot of energy for daily operation will not be commercially feasible in the end. Compared to a skate pool, this surfpool will require lots of energy on a daily basis.

It could be wise to look into this to be able to come up with a concept that requires the least amount of energy or even better generates energy. Perhaps combine it with a system that creates energy from potential energy and couple this wavepool to this as some kind of parasite/ side effect that uses the flowing water from the energy generating system.
Of course there will be some energy losses for the wave creation, but it might result in a higher efficiency compared to other concepts and thus minimal use of energy.

Not only commercial aspects are important here, but also one can look at environmental aspects. With shortage of energy becoming more and more an issue, what sense does it make to build dozens of surfpools?
So why not come up with something really clever that also fulfills a meaningful role in the environmental problems that we are currently facing? This would give your concept far more reason for existence and make it something that can be among us for a longer period of time.

I am curious to see if such a thing would be possible.

Good luck!

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kennethpk64 commented Sunday, 27 Nov 2011 at 5:21pm

I gave this topic some more thought. Let me give an example. Here in the Netherlands we have a dike called the "Afsluitdijk". Tidal effects cause a flow of enormous amounts of water through sluices in this dike.
Experiments have been done to use this potential energy to generate electricity by using water turbines. Although, this could deliver electricity to 10.000 homes, the turbines need quite some maintenance.

For a wavepool this potential energy does not necessarily need to be converted to electricity. The flowing water could directly be used for the purposes of the wave generation for the pool. You would build the surfpool directly next to the sluices of the dike and you would only need a controlling system that has opening and closing valves to control the timing of the water. No need for expensive energy demanding pumps.

In comparison to the pool in Tenerife, this concept would make much more sense. There, electricity is used to pump water to a water container at a certain height, thus converting electricity to potential energy. Then this water is released and this creates wave energy. To me this doesn't make much sense at all in terms of energy efficiency.

The concept of the circular pool also needs constant supply of energy in order to create waves. So in terms of energy efficiency this is also not ideal.

In Holland, we also have a waterpark called Dutch water dreams. The daily operations require lots of energy. Untill now it has not been very profitable. They have a circular pool and pumps that make the water flow in this circle.
Why not place this thing next to a flowing river or sluices that deal with tidal effects? Then you can use the available water flow and the daily operation costs are no longer a big problem.
For an investor this would already be far more interesting then when the concept involves huge daily operation costs.

Again, good luck! I hope someone here will profit from this.

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bob_s commented Sunday, 27 Nov 2011 at 10:05pm

hi kenneth, thats exacly what our group and in particular I have been researching to establish for over 10 years now. But not a "parasitic" addition to a power plant. When 66% goes down the drain we can be the better reason for it existing? Anyone with motivation and skills can join this "open source" initiative. Why because the waste is owned by the people who pay for the electricity and they are the ones who should directly benefit in a triple bottom line , everyone of them for whatever level of type of dynamic water sport there is. Yes just as in Israel where "the worlds largest Jacizzi" is downstream of a power plant old folks have a big place in the planning. A major serious fatal flaw in anyone's perception of developing such a resource is to not include every and any community, environment , water sport and yes business interest. Surfing and anyone's innovation should and will be a part of such a paradigm shift in thinking. Serious highly skilled surfing as well - but maybe not as much as the highly skilled surfing and developers may prefer . But that's ok as they must be motivated to put the time in.

bob_s

victor's picture
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victor commented Monday, 28 Nov 2011 at 8:00am

bob s. bob is that hadera water park in israel ?

bob_s's picture
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bob_s commented Monday, 28 Nov 2011 at 9:05am

Vic, yes it is. cant see it being a big tourist drawcard though?
Every second new bath tubs got jacuzzi jets now?
But the idea of people in cooling water is not new -just not well developed yet.

The impending sale of generators is scaring me as I don't want to be asking a
foreign bank for land and water rights. Not when the kayakers got them when the place was built.
a few mill of infrastructure was built as well to accomadate it. previous premiers depatment said if we had the Kayakers on board we were 40% of the way there. Well we have them onboard and anyone else that gives a damm about developing this for good use. yes even business will be there to earn greenbacks. thats if the true vision is enabled and progressed.

We got 10,000 people on a"bogy hole " facebook page and the government listened
now we want 100,000 surfers , kayakers, white water rafters, fishermen, greenies all to say
we cant let that waste keep happening-we want a wave farm , white water rafting course and muliple supersize me standing waves. If I have my way Killen ( the origional inventor) of the deep water flowrider will get a small royalty as well as every triple fin used on the site will see the inventor get a small royaty for every time it makes some money.

what's fair is fair!

bob_s

batfink_and_karate's picture
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batfink_and_karate commented Friday, 23 Dec 2011 at 5:02pm

Best of luck with it Greg. The more people you get out of the ocean and into your wave pools the better.

I'm an unlikely starter though. Being out in the open, looking out to sea with nothing but water for thousands of kilometres, the sense of being in nature, looking back to the shoreline and especially when you can't see a building from there, well that is just magic for me.

The waves sound nice but the surrounds are a little like the opposite of what I'm looking for in surfing. I want to be free, not enclosed!

And if people are going to go to your parks, then they won't be in the ocean, so I'm a big fan.

Tylerdurden, if you have done the AICD course you would know that investors would be signing off on all manner of documents, including a prospectus, before the money would be accepted. Comments on this website are hardly going to be actionable against the 100 pages or more of legal documents that an investor would be getting. Farking hell, it ain't as though Greg is doing an IPO. Yet!

Bob-S lighten up mate. 'Egghead' just doesn't have those connotations in Australia. Probably not in the US as well.

What are you going to do about all those kids - everyone under 25 - who call everything 'gay'.

tylerdurden's picture
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tylerdurden commented Saturday, 24 Dec 2011 at 10:10am

Batfink, I guess my point is as you say, I think Greg has to be very careful giving those type of supremely optimistic profit forecasts to genuine investors.
Having said that, a public comment by an executive director in regards to future potential success of his/her company can be held to account regardless of the setting.
It begs the question, if Greg is going to give a different set of expected profit outcomes to potential investors compared to what he is saying on here, which one is the truth?

whaaaat's picture
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whaaaat commented Saturday, 24 Dec 2011 at 2:29pm

@tylerdurden

(long resigned sigh)

Puffery.

See Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Co [1893] 1 QB 256

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sidthefish commented Monday, 26 Dec 2011 at 10:37pm

do I read this correct, that both designs produce either 1 or 2 waves?

or can it be upscaled to produce more waves = more riders.?

the economics of construction and power source input costs, for an apparatus like this to accomodate the number of riders, simultaneously, to justify the investment, must be massive.

do existing wave pools turn a profit ?

I think they are pipedream playthings involving ever more expensive valuable commodities - power and water.

Karmically... not far behind motorsports.

getmysurfboard's picture
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getmysurfboard commented Wednesday, 22 Feb 2012 at 6:00pm

Brilliant. Can't wait because I've said for years what we need in Perth in summer is a wave pool, because there isn't any surf and it's so friggin' hot.

the-roller's picture
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the-roller commented Thursday, 23 Feb 2012 at 10:52am

Almost?

pfffft.

Care to venture a guess as to how many people over multiple decades claimed they "almost" beat old baldy, BKS-Bob Kelly Slater at ANYTHING?

Starting an article with the subject title containing the words, "Almost", and "Kelly Slater", is almost as shitehouse as any article ending in a question mark!

Drive thru.