# Bitcoin #

udo's picture
udo started the topic in Wednesday, 15 Nov 2017 at 3:49pm

The Bitcoin graph looks Interesting ! ?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 3:01pm

Probably the smart move but if the ship goes down I'm going with it, i thought about cashing out then buying back in once things start rising, but i don't know i just don't feel right about doing it and you really can't time the market I think the market could just run away to fast.

I'm 50/50 in my faith of what while happen next, but I don't know i don't want to observe i want to be part of it, one day I'm going to have a story to tell.

It's either going to be kids i put $5k in got to $18 then lost everything or i put $5k in got to $18K rode the storm out and cashed out at $50K

I just think the story is sometimes the most important thing, i just would hate to the tell the story, i got in early with $5k got to $18k then cashed out at a loss in a big correction, got weak hands and then everything boomed in price.

Maybe its crazy way to think about things, but sometimes you just have to go with your gut

Been a heap of miss information around about government bans etc over the last few weeks one after another but really most of what appears to be negative news is really positive when you unravel things.

First it was South Korea, not banning crypto but regulating, which is actually a good thing.

Then we had the Exchange hack.

Now the India thing where people are misinterpreting news that the government is cracking down on crypto, when they are actually cracking down on illegal use of crypto.

I am expecting things to be like this until mid to last feb though, as Chinese new year doesn't finish until then.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 3:45pm

Good luck with it. You must have stronger nerves than me.

Laurie McGinness

the chase's picture
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the chase commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 5:09pm

I am not selling nothing stay strong indo. I am currently down a shit load rather not discuss the figures.

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 5:19pm

Upcoming icos
https://credits.com/en (be quick for whitelist)
https://neonexchange.org/
https://seele.pro/ very early just yet, needs a lot of research
Already trading but good buy (just my opinion): TNC (trinity network credits)
Cryptos will be shut down completely? Dont be silly :)

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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 5:27pm

Love a good ico
I am up over 10x as it sits at the moment at (hopefully) the bottom or near bottom of the slump. I have also taken out my original investment and some profit. 2018 will see the release of beta versions for many of the projects I have invested in :)

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 5:38pm

The Facebook crypto ad ban?
Crypto and the blockchain stand for everything that a manipulative, controlling bastard like Mark Fuckerberg hates. It does not surprise me one little bit that he has done that. Plus the ads must really annoying for Facebook users

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 5:53pm

Yeah it’s all based on faith.

And look around you , the tenuous faith that cryptos were living on is bleeding out as I type this.

joakse's picture
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joakse commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 5:55pm

I think we'll see this market reverse as much as it went up from Sept...maybe a 'dead cat bounce along the way which might be a time worth looking to exit if you haven't. There are just too many s%^$coins that actually do nothing. Have you stopped to think what purchasing a coin/token is? it is certainly not shares or equity in the company. Often the coins will have some utility (a use) but if, like XRP, they can just produce more tokens then what value does your coins have? They is why BTC 21million is unique..ish.

Also Dow Jones is tanking hard today. Not looking good. To quote "I have seen it happen too many times - longs overstay their hand, claim they will never sell, then end up pulling out their positions right where smart $$ that caught the top is buying back in. Called the porcelain alter trade." Not sure that I'd enjoy telling the story so much.

Look closely at what is worth holding long term. There are not many coins worth holding that have a real case. With that said I have absolute confidence this is just a blip...but it may last a year. All value in life in captured when you're right about something and everybody else doesn't see it. But don't hold to zero ; )

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 6:09pm
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 6:12pm

The blockchain will work for everybody, including governments, it is early days and it is not going away.

the chase's picture
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the chase commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 6:38pm

This is just the beginning don't believe all the news you here. 5 years from now you will be kicking your self in the ass you didn't buy at these prices. If you sold out at a loss your not cut out for crypto.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 6:50pm

My view is that the entire crypto market has been heavily manipulated by large, probably criminal, investors. Let's call them "sheepdogs". (No offence to the frequent contributor of that name). The concept is simple. You use multiple agents to bid up the price, the rapid rise attracts genuine investors (sorry, but that would be the sheep in the analogy), which pushes the price higher. Because you have significant holdings you can then coordinate sell offs to lower the price, then buy again aggressively.....and so on and on building the bubble. Organised crime is big business, I will be amazed if, when the real story comes out, they have not been deeply involved.

Laurie McGinness

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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 6:55pm

Before christmas I was absolutely stoked when the market (and my portfolio) reached the level it is at right now. It continued to rise on the back of blind, crowd mentality driven speculation. The punters who just jumped on, not knowing what they were investing in have, and are being burnt right now. Things will settle down, in my opinion, and the blockchain will continue to grow as it has been and should do. The tech is awesome and here to stay. I will be riding the bumps.

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the chase commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 7:03pm

100% certain Organised crime are shuffling money and playing the market. this started way back when silk roards was doing it with bitcoin

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 7:51pm

@the chase I agree to some extent, but I also think that that aspect of it is often over estimated

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 7:55pm

Ha ha. This morning every single coin/token in my portfolio was in the red for 24hr gain and now they are all green, every single one

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 7:56pm

Block chain and smart contracts are without a doubt the future, my friend who works at a bank and is invested in crypto said the other day, it's becoming more and more talk about it in the banking world and check this out for an eye opener, no shortage of jobs in block chain https://www.seek.com.au/blockchain-jobs

But can the everyday person continue to make money from crypto?

Thats the real question.

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 8:36pm

Yes they can. No doubt whatsoever imo. Less than 1% hold cryptos. As I have said before well chosen projects are the key. It is possible that it will become more difficult in the future as regulators make changes but right now, at least here in oz we are free to invest. Future changes may be based on protecting people from themselves as much as anything else. (Think blind speculators as seen recently) You just need to put the work in so you pick the right ones, spread your investment over many good projects rather than one or two and let them mature. If you cant handle the market fluctuations dont watch. The shitcoins are making it more difficult to pick but they are also helping people who are prepared to put in the time.

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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 8:49pm

https://hackernoon.com/request-network-is-more-than-just-paypal-2-0-it-c...

One good example from my portfolio of a quality project that should mature into something solid, maybe it wont, but it is just one of many.

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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 8:57pm

Or this:
https://quantstamp.com
Huge market (auditing smart contracts), CEO with big reputation in the space. Clearly a serious project.

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joakse commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 9:01pm

Topsy. That’s the point you’re not INVESTING in the coins. You’re speculating that the value will go up or their utility will increase moving the price up. They are not shares in equity in any way. This is what most are not seeing. don’t get me wrong I’m on board with crypto but they are not an investment beyond speculation. That is part of the reason for the volatility. There are a few exceptions

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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 9:24pm

@joakes I agree, I am speculating but I choose very carefully, spread things out and let the averages work themselves out. What I am not doing is speculating blindly. Maybe investiong is the wrong word to use but the returns are there

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 9:38pm

IMO in regard to speculation, shares and crypto are exactly the same, they are both based on speculation, I'm sure with shares you also research the company and its history and where it says they are heading etc but end of the day, nobody knows for sure, hence speculation.

But i do agree it's different in that in shares a company must make money and preform (well thats what i would expect)

But crypto it's just speculation that the technology and idea behind a crypto will pay off.

It's pretty crazy really and it's like the wild west at the moment.

But IMHO thats part of the appeal :P there is almost a kind of anti establishment punk feel to it too.

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Blowin commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 9:39pm

How many of your projects have matured into something solid ?

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 9:59pm

Maybe 2 or 3 but its hard to measure maturity at this stage. Maybe none yet, but it is coming. One project that I could not call mature but definitely maturing cost me $200 to buy in to at ico around 8 months ago. I just checked and my speculation :) is now worth $24950. It is expected to go much higher. I have 2 more that are in a similar position. Interestingly, these are the first 3 that I speculated in and the ones that have had more time to “mature”

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Blowin commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 9:58pm

Expected by whom ?

How do you define maturity? Wouldn’t that be when a coin is utilised as a currency ?

Topsy's picture
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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 11:59pm

Expected by the people who are trying to predict the market trends and the potential future value. Im not sure how to define mature, I suppose none are truly mature. What does seem to happen is that when milestones in software development are reached and proof is shown the market reacts. Proof of progress might be a better way of putting it.

swab's picture
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swab commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 10:08pm

you dickheads ( udo& topsy) should stick to surf related banter. cos you're just showing how fucking stupid you both are with every post ... dickheads.

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blindboy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 10:11pm

So if blockchain is such a great and useful technology why are cryptos it's only substantial use? It is coming up to ten years since it was first released so the uptake by other potential users has been extremely slow. This runs against the trend with technologies. Think what has happened with smartphones over the same period. Yes there maybe some breakthrough ........... but at this stage you would have to bet against it.

Laurie McGinness

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 12:04am

The token economics of each project are different and it is inevitable that when they are fully mature and being used as intended their value will adjust to something more “real” whether that be up or down. Some are burned as they are used to create upward pressure on the value of the remaining tokens. Others are released incrementally. Nearly all have a maximum supply and it is quite common for some of the maximum supply to be locked up in a smart contract for a period of time. Dentacoin, for example, has a massive total supply that is locked up and released incrementally over the next 24 years.

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Topsy commented Saturday, 3 Feb 2018 at 10:20pm

@swab change threads, read something that makes you happy and leave us alone. I dont care what you think of me but thanks for the laugh.

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 12:26am

Actually I am on a good thing and trying to help a few people get in on it too. I am not attached to being right and know that I am often wrong, but if I can answer peoples questions and help them make their own choices I am happy to continue doing so. I have just, for the first time gone back to the start of this thread and had a good look through it (I wanted to see why poor udo got tarred by @swab with the same brush as me)...definitely unfair and not true - at least in udos case :) One thing I noticed is that it only started in november. In my experience if you put money into an ico the project needs at least 6+ months to show progress. Of course there are exceptions but most need time for the programmers to do their thing. Patience is important and as I have said before you dont need to put the house on it.

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 12:07am

@blindboy I think you are understating the blockchain’s adoption and use cases. I was amazed at how big and varied it was once I started to dig in.

joakse's picture
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joakse commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 12:10am

I think we are all understating it. The first digital camera was created in 1975. About 20 years before it even hit consumers. We shouldn’t expect 10 years that crypto performs. It will , but till then it will remain volatile. There is huge potential but massive risks at this stage for those just taking a punt without carefully considering both sides. This will likely shake a lot of people out and skeptics will be vocal.

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 4:07am

@everyone I have sobered up a bit and re-written a couple of tonights earlier comments :)

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 6:07am

Topsy’s comment at 9:59 makes everyone’s else’s comments redundant

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 8:42am

Thanks for your replies , Topsy,Joakse and Indo.

Just cause I’m not into it doesn’t mean I’m not interested.

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blindboy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 9:09am

joakse digital cameras were initially unsuccessful because they produced poor quality images. It may be a fair comparison in the sense that blockchain, as it currently exists, has major drawbacks. One significant difference though, is that digital cameras were always going to be successful if they could match or better, the quality of film. There is no such guarantee for blockchain. Cryptos, by their limited acceptance, fail the basic test of a currency and there are fundamental reasons why this will not change. There are numerous structural economic issues around their widespread use which will cause governments to regulate them out of existence. The other uses of blockchain you refer to simply have not been taken up in their relevant fields. Consider, over the decade that this technology has existed, I have not been involved in a single transaction using it and that statement would be true for well over 90% of the population. It's a bubble. If you are smart and still in positive territory you might wring a little more profit, but the end is now pretty much inevitable.

Laurie McGinness

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Blowin commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 9:15am

When business finally takes up the successful crypto currency at the end of this teething phase , then the government(s) of the world will fall into step as they do with everything else that business demands.

You think that governments are truly powerless to act on multinational tax avoidance within their respective jurisdictions?

They’ve been told and so they do.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 9:53am

The problem with cryptocurrency for most people to understand i think is it's so associated with Bitcoin, people just see it all as a black and white thing, where every crypto is made to replace fiat money, there is niche areas for that, but IMHO it's limited and unrealistic.

The real life cases for crypto is in projects dealing with other aspects of business where the middle man can be cut out where business can be done between two parties more efficiently.

For example like power ledger https://medium.com/power-ledger/all-the-different-ways-the-power-ledger-...

Already an active project, its even had a grant from the Australian governmenthttps://medium.com/power-ledger/australian-government-awards-grant-to-8-...(Aimie_s_Template12_15_2017)

Then there is crypto like Horzon state that is aimed at using the block chain for voting http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/11/27/horizon-state-the-aussie-com...

There is absolutely no doubt block chain tech won't be used in the future (it doesn't all need to be mined) and its already being used in some areas.

But yeah...as a individual will i still be able to profit from it, in the way we have been, or will we all be screwed over?

Most likely we will be screwed over..but hey I'm taking my chances.

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 9:56am

This is a real good read https://www.ibm.com/blogs/blockchain/2017/05/the-difference-between-bitc...

And should be noted some of biggest companies in the world are woking with different cryptos.

Even cities and governments (very recent article on a crypto I'm invested in) https://www.finder.com.au/taiwan-to-use-iota-tangle-based-citizen-id-car...

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 10:02am

@blindboy we are not talking only about currencies here. Many cryptos are tokens that are designed to be used within a specific ecosystem. Any kind of sensitive information can be kept and made accessable on a blockchain with absolute confidence that it has not been stolen or modified. Medical records, financial loans, patents, copyrights, money transfers (anywhere to anywhere and any amount for cents, not 20% or more), the list goes on and on. The efficiencies are incredible by comparison to current systems. Tokens are the price for participating in these ecosystems and the price is very cheap compared to current systems. Calling them all currencies is simplistic in the extreme. If you really want to know what is happening read and understand some of the articles that people have posted links to here. As far as currencies go there are also many valid uses for cryptos. Some of the reasons Santoshi created bitcoin in the first place was to address global financial meltdown, corruption in banks and to help bank the unbanked (people with a very small amount of money who the banks dont want to know about because they dont have enough to pay bank fees). Japan is an example of an economy that has embraced cryptos, there are many others. What about the poor people of Zimbabwe who are trying to get by in a hyperinflated economy. As soon as they are paid they join the food queue because they know that tomorrow the prices will always be higher. Many people in Zimbabwe, if they are lucky enough to have any extra money store it in bitcoin to shield themselves from this hyper inflation. As I see it at the moment, privacy is one of the key issues for people and govenments. It is a double edged sword. On the one hand we have fucked up corporations like google, facebook and others using peoples data that should be private for profit and manipulation. Fake news is everywhere, even the pope is talking about it. On the other hand we have terrorists and crimminals hiding their activities using cryptos that are, in my opinion too private. I believe that a balance will be found (NEO may be a good example of this) between protecting our private, personal data and public safety. So in the end you wont be able to hide your financial details and avoid taxes, but your personal info will be protected from manipulative corporations.

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blindboy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 10:20am

Topsy, I referred to blockchain, not just cryptos and I am aware of the uses you have listed. My point is that after ten years blockchain technology has not been widely accepted. A few niche uses do not justify the current investment or suggest widespread uptake in the forseeable future. It's a bubble.

Laurie McGinness

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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 10:40am

Everything is a bubble if you want to view it as such, even life on this earth is a bubble it's growing but one day will end even if we don't have a hand in it our sun will expand and char us to a grill before it dies.

The stock market is in a bubble ready to crash again soon, housing prices are in a bubble we are all waiting for the crash and have been for over ten years.

If this is a bubble and this is the pop then going back to prices from the start of December only two months ago isn't too bad, if it's not the pop and it's just a correction then surely such a correction takes pressure of the risk of bubble and pop factor?

In the larger scheme of things Bitcoin has had quite a number of similar corrections this one is about 60% but there has been larger ones like when it went to over $1k and dropped to $240

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 10:55am

@blindboy fair enough, I disagree with you but respect your opinion. I like the fact that this is not a one sided discussion

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 11:13am

I noticed when I finally went through the whole thread last night that there were a few comments about taxation. I have discussed this at length with my accountant. If you are a day/swing trader it is income. If you hold it comes under capital gains tax which is reduced by 50% if you hold for over 1 year. And.....heres the interesting one. If you spent less than 10K on the original investment and spend the gains, regardless of how large they are, on a personal use item(s), including a house that you live in. It is tax free. There is no guarantee that this will stay the same but if it changes and you are seen to have acted in good faith, on the information availabe to you at the time, you will have to pay the extra taxes but the ato will not prosecute. To do this you MUST use the original crypto to make the payment, changing to bitcoin and then paying is not acceptable.

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Topsy commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 11:37am

@indo thanks for the ibm link, it was a good read. Great news on the iota front as well, I hold some too :)

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joakse commented Sunday, 4 Feb 2018 at 5:14pm

Topsy. I'm all for paying tax to keep the social structures/amenities in place but if you're half switched on I don't suspect it would be too hard to avoid taxes particularly with the number of exchanges that have no KYC.