Anything from the extensive menu!!!!
Well if you could demonstrate that there would be a learn net benefit I would accept that Blowin but with Australia having about $80 billion dollars invested in China, I think their response would be extremely damaging to our economy.
In terms of a policy I think BB's comment above encapsulates most of what we can do at the moment.
" In the meantime it is in our national interest to behave as successive governments have been doing for several decades which is to make our displeasure known diplomatically, prevent direct interference in domestic politics to the best if our ability and build the trading relationship which is mutually advantageous. "
Where I suspect opinions will diverge is on how far we go to providing support for our alliance partners in whatever caper they come up with . No more fake WMD please.
We should however educate ourselves as much as possible .See you on the dark side of the moon .
Our economy can be rebuilt, our nation is gone forever once we let the Chinese get it.
I don’t have too many doubts that blood will be shed over the issue in the future. As many have said , if the Chinese economy tanks and the people in the street suffer then they will have their anger redirected outwardly utilising the extreme nationalism which Xi is formenting for that very purpose.
Taiwan will be the first to go under.
That'll happen anyway, most likely.
So you would be in favour of stopping trade with China. It is hypocritical to trade with a country that you find so offensive. Try running that idea at the next election!
Well freeride we have nothing to worry about until Taiwan is invaded? Sounds about right to me. When are you expecting that to happen? I can't see it in my lifetime.
You're pretty old BB, so most likely you'll be gone.
Xi is much younger and made it pretty clear he intends unification sooner, rather than later. By any means necessary.
That'll be the first nationalist trigger he hits if he needs to bolster support.
It is true that community harmony would be a beautiful Utopia we all dream of. I strongly believe that it is un-achievable by MAKING people cooperate by regulation. China is experimenting with ways to forcibly harmonise its people:
1) Deny freedom of religion because there is misalignment with the principles of the Communist Party.
2) Create a social engineering framework premised on shame and limitation of people who are not aligned with the Communist Party Ideology.
3) Limit what the population is allowed to view in terms of ways to live in the outside world (You tube, Google, Facebook).
Western Democracy aims to achieve:
Community stability, by accepting that the nature of the individual is unique and divine, and that every man is created equal (in the eyes of humanity), and therefore shall have the freedom and opportunity to fight for what they believe in. In order to achieve this:
1) Democracy ensures that the individual has the right to vote, regardless of their disposition
2) Allow society to organise a heirarchy of beliefs and values, allow the society to have freedom and flexibility to change over time as the context changes.
3) Provide a court system and free press to ensure that the rights of the individual are upheld above all else. And by allowing the individual to test their beliefs against the larger society.
Communism is by definition, a Tyrrany, because there is one world view, all other views are subordinate and must be oppressed in order for the dominant view to survive and there are no checks on whether the view remains in the interests of its people. At some point this has always ended in catastrophic destruction (world history).
Democracy is constantly vulnerable to Tyrrany.
Ever present, there is a human tendency to have our own view become dominant and prevent competing views from prevailing. The difference with Democracy is that the underlying premise is the ability to hold individuals accountable equally.
That categorically does not exist in Communism.
You are critical of the current Western Democracies and the unfairness of outcome produced by Capitalism. They should be criticised. You are astonished at the corruption of the rich and powerful, their tendency to undermine democracy. You are mortified by the abuses of human rights. Certainly these Western people who corrupt and undermine Democracy should not have the gall to criticise a corrupt and Communist nation such as China.
But I have a feeling that you are not one of these people Blindboy. You believe in fairness and equality like most humans on this earth. You have been given a voice and a platform like no other Communist regime can provide. You have the capacity to fight and vote for change and so at a fundamental Ideological level I am astonished that you are not so much as willing to condemn and outright reject the ideals of Communism as being historically devastating and a long march toward destruction and genocide all in the interests of establishing a tragically unattainable utopian view of harmony.
I accept the complexity and inequality of my existence in full, and accept that my own view is imperfect, and vulnerable to my own human desire for Tyrrany and control of my environment, and so I unequivocally choose to be held to account by Democratic values, and desire to encourage anyone who is interested to become conscious and cautious of the clear but seemingly overlooked dangers of the utopian communist dream.
Because China is Communist, it is quickly realising that in order to retain in power, it must increasingly implement tyrannical order upon its people. Today it may look sustainable to you, but in order for it to sustain, it must cut-off the air from its detractors (anyone who doesn't subordinate themselves to the superiority of the Communist Party). Introducing capitalism & free market to China seems to only have increased the stress on the governing party to limit it's people's freedoms so that it can retain control.
Trump is about to be held to account for his attempt to undermine Democracy, it was close but the Western Democratic Institution avoided Tyrrany. Who is going to hold Xi to account for crimes against humanity on his own turf? The Global community? How?
H20 and BB,
If you are willing to accept the above dangers of Communism your best strategy forward has an end-state that is not sustainable, because there is an assumption that it is safe to have an increasing dependence on a Communist Regime with an intent at-least-as-corrupt as many Western Nations, but no capacity to be held to account by its people.
In my opinion we should welcome China to continue trade where the terms are aligned with Democratic values. We should categorically resist trading in any way that allows China to implement its Communist ideals, internally to china or externally (ie: by condemning Google's agreeableness to censor within China). We should hold all nations equally to account who: corrupt their government and oppress their people, spy illegally, trade with disadvantaged nations for the sole purpose burying them in debt and gaining control of their critical infrastructure. Instead we should promote international cooperation and international conventions premised on democratic voting systems.
Good posts, Yocal.
Well I suppose Trump and the decline of US power in the region might encourage him freeride but I still think the risks would be too high for him in any forseeable scenario. You better hope I'm right!
If China is going to get pulled up violently, then I’d prefer if it was in their backyard than ours.
Interesting stuff yocal and a valid perspective. I suppose where we differ is in our interpretation of our capacity to influence events in China. In my view we have very very limited influence. I think you also under-estimate the extent to which the current regime is a continuation not so much of communism, but of much longer Chinese traditions. It is very difficult to see beyond our conception of individual human rights to their, rather different view. I am not suggesting their view is better. I don't think it is, but given its deep historical roots I don't see it changing soon. We look at their oppression of Muslims and see it as a breach of human rights. They see it as a legitimate method of preventing the violence of terrorism and ensuring social harmony into the future. Xi more than any other leader in the world is playing the long game, not years or decades, but hundreds of years and millennia.
So you admire his deeply racist perspective and respect his yellow supremacist tyranny ?
And you’re willing to concede completely to this because we don’t have much chance of influencing his impact ?
Not just apologism , but craven cowardice if you ask me.
So you find Trump’s border wall immoral and will preach daily on his shortcomings, but you view the detention of a million muslims as pragmatic and don’t feel any more subjectivity is warranted ?
Remember how hard you wrung your hands over Trumps immigration restrictions on Muslim majority nations ? How do you reconcile your judgment on that instance with your complete acceptance of Jinping’s actions ?
Because they’ve been absolutely racist for thousands of years ?
One represents a culture in decay. The other represents cultural continuity.
So it’s traditional embedded racism.
Cool , now you’ve got something to fill in Australia Day next year .
That being you can attend every invasion day rally and placate everyone that they shouldn’t take what happened personally and they shouldn’t really get upset at the outcome , because it was just the English representing cultural continuity.
White supremacists are just representing the cultural continuity of their forefathers !
You realise you’ve just justified and accepted the most blatant acts of racism and tyranny you’ll ever come across , don’t you ?
I really think there’s something you’re not telling us about your attachment to the Sino situation , BB. This attitude of yours contradicts literally everything you’ve ever stood for.
You’re not doing a shit hot job selling the reasons for Australia to closen ties with China , BB.
I am most likely to achieve something by living faithfully by my ideals of the virtue of democracy. It will influence how I vote and hopefully by speaking the truth to the best of my knowledge as I have above, and having it challenged, I can understand more fully what I am advocating for and at the same time provide an alternative view that can be agreed with and elevated (or rejected).
Other than that, the benefit of opening China up to the global market is that there are many Chinese people all over the world who are being exposed to an alternative of Tyrranical imperial power that began with an ideal of Harmonious Communism at its centre. Hopefully Maoist China is still chillingly front of mind and the early indicators of oppression of freedoms are plain to see set against the democratic ideal (and hopefully the democratic ideal isn't sufficiently tainted by tyrrany and corruption for the benefits to be visible).
You say Xi is playing the long-game. Do you really think the suppression of Muslim faith/religions in general/detractors/truth is going to ensure harmony into the future? In my view it is dangerously short-sighted.
“We look at their oppression of Muslims and see it as a breach of human rights. They see it as a legitimate method of preventing the violence of terrorism and ensuring social harmony into the future. “
I certainly don’t recall you ever empathising with any other overtly racist group . Why the meek acceptance ?
This is what I actually said
"I am not suggesting their view is better. I don't think it is, but given its deep historical roots I don't see it changing soon. We look at their oppression of Muslims and see it as a breach of human rights. They see it as a legitimate method of preventing the violence of terrorism and ensuring social harmony into the future. "
Trying to understand the cultural differences that drive Chinese behaviour is not empathising with racists.
Still waiting for your policies Blowin. Surely trading with them is encouraging the behaviour you deplore?
I wrote this previously-
“Prevent them from owning any part of Australia or leasing essential infrastructure. Prevent them from compromising our democracy. Reduce Chinese migration substantially.”
The concept of Chinese owned mines and farms with their vertically integrated, zero dollar contribution to our country is fucking ludicrous.
Tear up the China free trade agreement.
Trade is fine , but there should be concerted political will towards recreating our independence from China . Particularly our manufacturing sector. That’s multi purpose - to reduce our imports , reduce their export market , increase our domestic capability to provide for ourselves in times of peace and particularly in times of war.
A nation is nothing if it’s not independent, despite the rhetoric of the globalists.
When the shit hits the fan , we can’t rely on anyone to help us with utmost certainty as history has shown us.
"It is very difficult to see beyond our conception of individual human rights to their, rather different view"
My understanding of the ancient eastern religion's values of human rights is that they are actually intimately aligned to Western-christian values. Are you specifically referring to the tendency for imperial rule over the centuries?
Ah yes the cake and eat it too approach. We get to take the high moral ground but don't actually do anything about it.
Blowin and Yocal
Did you read the article I put the link to earlier today? It will probably clear up a few points here.
So what are your ideas for China , BB ?
Huff and puff about Trump , whilst acquiescing to a 1.6 billion member yellow supremacist movement ?
Oh , that’s right .....you’re going to praise their timeless dedication to racial purity and exemplary adherence to ancient traditions of oppressing dissenting lifestyles.
It’s OK cause they’re not Caucasian, is that right ?
Didn’t see it , H20. I’ll check it now.
yocal I am referring to Confucian values.
Blowin, please go back and read my previous posts over an extended period. I think I have stated my views as clearly as possible along the way.
BB - I am not well versed on Confucianism. In what way does the Confucian tradition differ from Western values on human rights?
H20 yes it struck me as a very grave account of what is happening/could happen in the future.
Speaking of the future , the Chinese have landed a craft on the dark side of the moon- a first.
We are incredibly reliant on satellites for what we do day to day now.
I think we are about to see a new space race. This time between the US and China.
Holy shit , H20.
That’s an incredible read. The fact that Blindboy has read it and still maintains his neutral positive stance regarding China is telling. He’s always been down on people who reject the testimony of experts , I suppose those experts have to match their testimony to his own beliefs for that to be cast in stone.
The only negative I’d draw from the piece is the admission that China experts in a position of influence would temper their concerns in order to maintain objectivity....why ?
Who has ever considered China anything except an existential threat to Australia for the last decade at least ? I’d say that our government was asleep at the wheel , but the answer is probably a lot more nefarious than that.
BB , what was your relationship to the Chinese diplomats at your house ?
And how do you possibly contend that China has no plans on subjugating the world after such an official reading of their intentions ?
As BB said earlier, Garnaut does not go so far as to call out an external threat, and as I said earlier, we all need to educate ourselves as much as we can on what is going on- hence the link.
H20 .....is that really what you take from that ?
Mate , the entire premise of the article is to explain how the CCP needs an eternal threat and that threat is us !
And what is the central tenet they live by ? .......” I live : You die “.
Blowin - I said "external" not "eternal" and meant , from BB's earlier post. " but I can't see any argument there that China is a military threat." He literally does not call that out . Your point being that it is implied in the article (that they are a military threat) ,and my literal interpretation of it is naive. You may be right - keep talking.
“There is no ambiguity in this document. The Western conspiracy to infiltrate, subvert and overthrow the People’s Party is not contingent on what any particular Western country thinks or does. It is an equation, a mathematical identity: the CCP exists and therefore it is UNDER ATTACK . No amount of accommodation and reassurance can ever be enough - it can only ever be a tactic, a ruse. “
I live , You die.
As also postulated many times , any external Chinese aggression will be brought to the people as an act of defence.
Really , there’s no immediate evidence to guarantee a military conflict, but with an expansionist China obviously not willing to concede on any point as the article illustrates very thoroughly, it’ll be up to the Western sphere to accede to their demands in order to avoid conflict.
How far are you willing to bend personally to accommodate an implacable oppressive tyrannical dictatorship ?
From my previous post in November in "Whats What"
Following the China thread and in particular China's influence in Australia, I am halfway through "Silent Invasion" by Clive Hamilton.
It is well researched and recommended for anyone interested in what Australia may look like 20 + years from now. I dont want my kids having to live like the general population in mainland China under the political system currently in place there. Who knows if it would come to this but it has alarmed me.
I recall an interview by an English journalist of a Chinese businessman in Brazil questioning the extent of Chinese ownership in Brazil Businessman response was "We have not achieved this with guns and troops, we pay fair market value".
That's for now...................
Thanks H2O that was a good read as were the comments to
Early Chinese weren’t allowed to bring women to Australia thus ensuring they returned to China. At Bendigo during gold rush days there was 5700 Chinese men and only one women. In 1860 , of the 40,000 Chinese living in Australia only 12 were women.
They’ve always been indoctrinated to foster thoughts of being Chinese first and foremost and beholden to mother China.
Of course not all Chinese think this way .....that’s why many are stoked to get away from their yellow supremacist government and are extremely happy to call themselves Australians.
Blaming Australia for their mindset is utterly erroneous. Unless Australian government is also responsible for creating the same belief in Chinese in virtually every country they’ve ever landed in.
3000 Chinese workers landing in Sydney ports under contract working for way less pay than Australians, prompting the initial consideration of the White Australia policy. The policy was a defence of the standard of living of the working class from attempts to undermine wages through the importation of cheap foreign labour ......the more things change , the more they stayedthe same.
Working class Australians would not enjoy the standard of living and the level of equality that is still the envy of the world had it not been for the White Australia Policy.
I only just saw all of this. Well done chaps very robust discussion without one swear word, which is something more than you could say for Stab which seems to have a very limited vocabulary consisting primarily of 4 letter words and determiners. I agree with both of the protagonists, b and bb (b1 and b2?). I suppose looking back on history (and China has a looooong one) they have never been about taking over the world, more about establishing a safe border and making money, which they are doing today. China won't take over Oz and the US government is only interested in themselves and use other countries to achieve it (check history on what Malcom Fraser thought of them). We should try to wean ourselves from being too dependant on either or, which is easy to say and hard to do. China is the new world power however only if there is a world. It doesn't exist in isolation as the whole world is tied up in making money and it has a heap of internal issues they haven't faced yet which will bite them. The US will always be there and so will Europe, India and the rest. The US used both the soft approach and the hard military hand to build their empire, the latter fuelled by the complete paranoia of communism and now Islam and oil (basically anything which upsets the applecart of the big corps and the Koch brothers). We have to deal with both so it will be a deft hand and plenty of fast footwork from our beloved leaders to get it right. Strap in could be a bumpy ride.
Yes, I know this is the political party of that clown Clive Palmer and I’m in no way urging you to take him seriously.
The part about the Chinese building a military grade airstrip on a pastoral lease next to the port they control.....all too true. Capable of supporting invasionary forces. Desalination, fuel storage etc etc
Yet the clown got rich selling minerals to China, and his propsed Galilee Basin mine will sell coal to China, but he wants us to walk the walk?
It’s not about Clive . Ignore that moron.
Why do the Chinese need their own international airstrip when there’s an airport 80 kms away ?
I agree with the premise, the whole China is a threat deal, they've got the designs on the New World Order and it doesn't look much like the current one, but listening to Clive rabbit on is akin to Dick Smith preaching about only buying Australian goods only after he became a multi-millionaire selling cheap Japanese electronics at radically inflated prices.
Sorry...can't forget about Clive, or Dick. I'm too easily distracted today. Maybe it's the drugs.
So you’ve had dick on your mind all day ?
What are you on .....amyle nitrate ?
Boom tish !!!!!!
Bad blood. Literally.
Lots and lots.
Just when you thought China had an insatiable appetite for dong .....
RV Petrel has found the wreck of USS Hornet. Tip of the hat to the memory of Paul Allen, and also to his research crew.
Stunning footage, the paint remains intact after nearly 77 years.
Hornet had a brief service life, being memorable for flying massive B25s off her deck (thought impossible) to raid Tokyo; and along with sisters Yorktown and Enterprise sinking 4 Japanese fleet carriers at Midway in one of the most decisive naval battles in recorded history. Why relevant to the China thread? She was lost at the Battle of Santa Cruz, defending the seaway between Australia and the USA. The same water being contested for influence now with announcements of spending on ports, infrastructure and trade from all sides.