Smokescreens and mirrors

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog started the topic in Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 1:26pm

If you think it's dodgy, if it doesn't pass "the pub test", post it here for robust meaningful debate.

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Sheepdog commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 1:31pm

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/canterburybankstow...

Porter and his gestapo telegraphed a message to all addicts in Bankstown...
The message basically reads "MOVE NOW, up the road to Parramatta, or Cronulla, or Melbourne if you have to".... No testing there....
12 months after the trial, the coalition will release new stats, showing a major drop in ice usage in bankstown.... "SEE!!!!! IT WORKS", they will chortle.... What they wont mention is the increase in surrounding areas, where the addicts moved. The surrounding areas will only have a very slight increase, diluted...
Of course the current affair Grimshaw brigade will say "hey it works", without using their brains. No self respecting ice addict is going to stay in an area where they will be tested, when they can move 20km and not be tested. So the stats Porter will bring out down the track will be bogus.

Sheepdog

Halfscousehalfcockneyfullaussie's picture
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Halfscousehalfc... commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 2:49pm

Fair point Sd, but my understanding is it's a trial. Wouldn't be surprised if random drug testing is brought in Australia wide within a decade for Centrelink/ new start. Welfare costs the government a fortune so it seems they're trying new Strategies to get people off it.. by I'm being captain obvious

cd's picture
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cd commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 4:19pm

"self respecting ice addict" ?? classic

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 4:41pm

Half course.... yes.... It's a trial.... That's right.... So I'll run it by you again..
At the end of the trial, the government will bring out some stats...

The stats will UNDOUBTEDLY show that by the end of the trial, drug use in the trial area is down.... So they will claim the trial works.

But MY POINT is that hundreds, possibly thousands of drug users will simply move to suburbs just up the road, because they know that they wont get tested there. Therefore, the stats will be bullshit.. All the government will do is move the drug usage to nearby areas, then claim how successful the trial was. And people will believe it.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Sheepdog

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 5:01pm

I see your point and agree that's what would happen.

I think random drug testing is a good thing and obviously if it was random testing all around Australia there would be nowhere to move.

But that said you need to provide programs etc for people to kick the habit, otherwise they might just go off the dole and do crime to get money.

Bit of a hard one, as no tax payer really wants their tax money being spent on drugs, i know when i was on the dole although not a big drug taker my friends would blow much of there dole check on pot or even a bit of speed.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 5:05pm

You've missed the point Indo... It's not about the drug test. It's about deliberately misleading the public with facts they know are bullshit. Change the subject from drugs, to the economy, or house prices, or war, or anything. it's these dishonest tactics that fuck up everything.
And you writing it off, and going straight to "But still don't see the harm in random drug testing though" sort of proves a point. - as in "I'm ok with bullshit because it suits my particular stance on this subject'.
Well, indo It may not suit your stance on the next.

Sheepdog

talkingturkey's picture
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talkingturkey commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 5:10pm

This is a pure punitive measure designed to kick people off and save and even make $$$$. Blatant and transparent.

And imported from our fave ally that we all want to emulate. The US of A.

There is no altruistic motive here. Marijuana addicts, anyone?

It's all about the $$$$.

Cashless welfare card?

https://theaimn.com/lnp-welfare-card-true-facts-exposed-corruption-disgu...

Meanwhile, Mal throws this out there. The timing is exquisite.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/25/malcolm-turnbull-...

#Breatho4Barnaby ??

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 5:18pm

Well it aint gonna make any money for us tax payers, turk. And it aint gonna save any money.
I could explain, but hey.... lol

Sheepdog

talkingturkey's picture
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talkingturkey commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 5:41pm

Of course! It's the LNP way. Neo-liberal economics DO work the way they're supposed to. The top percentile get richer and more powerful. THIS IS IT WORKING!

The 'trickle-down' guff was always bollocks. And everyone knew it.

Actually, this latest bash of the powerless is obscene. AND MAKES NO REAL SENSE as far as real economics go.

The Newstart benefit hasn't gone up in real terms since Howard first got in! In fucking 1996!

Think about this. The unemployed on Newstart and similar benefits make up a small percentage of the working and eligible-to-work population. Out of that small percentage, how many are NOT actively seeking to work? And out of that smaller percentage, how many are hindered by drugs?

And yet, how much focus - Government and thus corporate media - is on this pissy percentage of the population??

At the same time, truly insane amounts of money are leached out of the public coffers by corpo rent-seekers and tax dodgers??

Get a grip. We're better than being downward-envying, 'coward punchers', aren't we?

Punch up, pikers, not down!

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 6:27pm

Yep..... Obscene pyramid scheme society.

Now, if you want to know how much "kicking the downtrodden" costs, even though some get a major dopamine rush from it, here's a hypothetical to think about, care of our old mate ziggy the giver Forest.

Take a hypothetical NW town of say 800, with 500 aboriginals unemployed. take a few pics of some drunk... Head around the country screaming "if you dont support me you're pedo"..

Whack these 500 on a cashless welfare card....
Just the admin cost of the card alone is TEN THOUSAND per card.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-02/cashless-welfare-trial-costing-tax...$10k-per-participant/8488268

So....... 10000 x 500 = FIVE MILLION DOLLARS per YEAR....

For five million a year, what could be done with a town of 800 folk, 500 of which are unemployed?

Build a police station - 5 mill... That's a one off cost first year.

Second year, employ 6 police at about 120k p/a, plus overtime etc - around 1 000 000 per year.

I've still got 4 million left... 100k for a cleaning contractor to clean the police station... 900k for upkeep of vehicles etc etc..

Still got 3 million.... Plus I've added 6 police and a cleaner - total of 7 full time workers to the town, spending money there, which will probably create 2 or 3 rub off jobs...
10 new jobs in a town of 800 is a big deal....

The 3 million can be returned to the tax payer.

But forget all that...... the dopamine rush is just too good....

Sheepdog

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 7:21pm

Doing both would be great.

It doesn't need to be one or the other.

The rich wrought the system and the poor wrought the wealth fare system.

I know i bummed around for years and years on the dole, i had part time and plenty of cash jobs, but i never tried to get a full time job or even wanted one, i had everything i needed at the time, waves, friends a good social life, enough money to party on weekends, and most of my circle of friends all did the same, i even traveled up and down the east coast twice for months on the dole, even did Indo trips on the dole (i did get cut off one time though)

I only got a job because all my friends did and it was getting harder and harder to go to Indo on the dole.

I have no problem with a cashless wealth fare card, i remember actually one time me and my mate went traveling on a road trip for months on the dole came back and had no money after we paid the bond for a rental, so had to go to a social worker who organised for a $30 each card for woolworths that was basically the same thing, could only buy groceries no alcohol or smokes, we were actually stoked at the time $30 grocery would barely gets you by a day or two now, but back then it felt like such a windfall.

Looking back i have no idea how i lived the life i did on so little though..I guess $1 spirits at the Edge helped.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 7:42pm

No offence, Indo, but sometimes I wonder whats up in that cranium of yours. ;)

I just pointed out that admin cost of one cashless card is an extra 10k per year.

If all 750000 unemployed folk were put on cashless welfare what would be the annual admin cost alone?

750000 x 10000 = ?
Yep.... SEVEN BILLION FIVE HUNDRED MILLION... Oh.... And they still get the card to the value of the dole...

If we put the 800000 disabilty folk on it too... 800000 x 10000 = EIGHT BILLION.

8000000000 + 7500000000 = FIFTEEN BILLION FIVE HUNDRED MILLION.

We'll drug test everyone too, seeing your keen on that..

We're looking at 20 billion, indo....

And all too make life harder for the majority looking for jobs that arent there, or folk with disabilities.

As I said, I wonder about you, man...

Sheepdog

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Friday, 25 Aug 2017 at 9:28pm

Is this a way the neo-cons could out-source Centrelink's payment system and administration to a private company or bank if these welfare cards became the norm?

Shatner'sBassoon's picture
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Shatner'sBassoon commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 5:45am

Fark. Gotta love the dog-whistle.

Welfare = unemployed = dole bludger = drug addict.

"Where's the dole bludger boy? Can you see him boy? Garn get the meth head boy! Garn get him! Get him! Good boy! Who's a good boy?"

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 8:02am

Obviously a card system shouldn't cost 10K per person that figure just seems ridiculous obviously something is fishy there.

And sorry Sheepdog, i think you are being naive it's easy to look at dollar cost like that, but what about the other cost to society we all know all the problems that come as a result of low socioeconomic disadvantage people/familys/communities where unemployment rates are extremely high and dependence on wealth extremely high and we are now seeing intergenerational wealth fare dependence, i know my self from experience how you can become dependent on the system and actually become trapped in a sense.

The problems that face individuals and families and communities are all kinds of issues, unemployment the main driver for higher levels of:

Alcohol abuse, drug use, gambling addiction, domestic violence, break down of family unit, higher chance of being involved in crime (or end up in prison) or victims of crime, higher suicide rates, higher rates of depression, debt that can't be paid off, little to zero chance of home ownership..im sure there is more.

And if you do want to look at things in dollar terms all these things cost communities and the tax payer money and put pressure on public systems to deal with these problems.

A card system makes complete sense, the price stated is the only area that makes no sense?

And I'm really not interested in having a bitching session with Herc where he post a page of dribble followed by a video, and then he cuts and paste the same comment ten times rearranging it and adding a few extra lines that make little sense, or comments just trying to bait me with abuse or personal comments.

BUT

Obviously all these problems that stem from high levels of unemployment don't only face non indigenous Australian communities or for that matter any community around the world where unemployment is high but they also face indigenous community's, because despite culture or skin colour or labels end of the day we are all the same.

(That said I'm sure Herc will reply in about 15 minutes with a page long reply about how racist i am for suggesting skin colour is irrelevant and that all people are really the same, go figure)

BTW: I should just add yes all the problems listed are not only seen by those wealth fare dependent and not all those on wealth fare face those problems, but those problems are seen at higher levels among the long term unemployed.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 5:19pm

Indo........... Here's what the article states;

"Details released under the Freedom of Information show the pilot program is costing up to $18.9 million, excluding GST.
The Government is paying the debit card provider, Indue, at least $7.9 million, while the Social Service Department's administrative costs are $2.6 million."

It amazing that you think something is fishy with the government data on this, yet when it comes to government data on things you support, you wholeheartedly back it.

Face it.... it costs 10k per card.

Sheepdog

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 5:41pm

Ok yes gotcha, this makes more sense.

$7.9 million for what exactly, some card?

Basically like any private company subcontracting for a government department or council etc prices are inflated to unrealistic prices even if it goes to tender everyone puts in unrealistic prices because they know they will pay up, as a tradie i do the same thing especially for insurance type jobs I charge three times as much, even if quoted and competing against others I'm still in with a chance because everyone else does the same.

So the true cost should be closer to $2.6 million.

Two factors you probably should consider anything rolled out in small numbers cost more per unit than when rolled out in much larger numbers.

And things always cost more to set up than run, so after things are set up the running cost could be much cheaper.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 6:10pm

What if you're both right ?

What if the welfare card is an absolute rort of tax payers money whilst at the same time a large percentage of people on welfare are taking the piss just as hard ?

Could it be possible that citizens from both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum view the government as a cash cow ready to be milked ?

I know . It seems unlikely, huh ?

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 6:15pm

the concept is fine but the practicals are ludicrous....so some bloke gets done for smoking pot 2 weeks ago and yet some other bloke is plastered every single night and slips through unscathed because its alcohol???. doesn't make sense. for true non-recreational addicted persons then the cashless card sort of makes sense, but in and of itself doesnt actually solve the persons addiction problem, but more importantly how are they going to work out who is an addict and who just prefers a little 'time out' every now and then? its a waste of money.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 6:24pm

The entire drug testing regime permeating modern society is a blight and an intrusion.

Abbot was too pissed to vote in parliament for fucks sake. Name me another role in the public service where you can come to work pissed.

And what degree of hypocrisy do you rate someone who can be too drunk to function on one hand , yet is persecuting recreational drug users of any stipe on the other ?

mattlock's picture
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mattlock commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 9:02pm

I agree blowfly

Drug testing is veiled classwar.
Management don't get tested but the workers do.

Don't wanna piss in a cup today
It's not the Australian way

Shatner'sBassoon's picture
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Shatner'sBassoon commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 11:36pm

On the ball, boys. Turkey said this 10+ posts ago.

Whatever. So long as we all get there.

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 11:52pm

Eventually.

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Saturday, 26 Aug 2017 at 11:59pm

Sorry, 15 odd posts ago.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 27 Aug 2017 at 7:58am

Good points on the alcohol thing and double standard.

It's a complete joke Abbott was too pissed to vote, that should have been then end of him in parliament.

I don't think there should be a free pass for anyone who gets payments from a government or council all should be exposed to the possibility of drug testing and alcohol levels for government/council employees.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Sunday, 27 Aug 2017 at 4:11pm

Continuing on with blowins what ifs...

What if the private company running the cashless welfare card was owned by coalition members, and that 10k admin per card was going back to the liberal party, NOT the people of Australia? And what if the head of that company (Indue) was non other than former liberal party president Larry Anthony, son of former deputy prime minister Doug Anthony?

And what if now that they have built up a great business model, are trying to sell Indue to chinese company who, get this, (you'll need to sit down for this one), own and specialize in GAMBLING PRODUCTS?????? Yes.... That's right... An anti gambling card, being managed by a gambling firm....
I suppose you have to look after them. Afteral, lots of folk wont be using their gambling services anymore.... So I suppose this will make up for any losses.

https://theaimn.com/lnp-welfare-card-true-facts-exposed-corruption-disgu...

Sheepdog

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 27 Aug 2017 at 5:39pm

If it was true it would be really disappointing, as it makes complete sense to have a welfare card.

Personally id take anything on a website like that with a grain of salt though, looks trashy in a inner city hipster chemtrail kind of way.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Sunday, 27 Aug 2017 at 5:58pm

Well then do your own fuckn research mate. I could give you proof indo, that water is wet... But you wouldnt believe it if you were "anti wet", would you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Anthony

"Larry Anthony is Deputy Chairman of the Queensland-based financial institution Indue"

Sheepdog

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 27 Aug 2017 at 8:17pm

:P

Shatner'sBassoon's picture
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Shatner'sBassoon commented Sunday, 27 Aug 2017 at 10:44pm

Indo = wilful ignoramus.

And, worse, revels in it.

Muppet show.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 7:27am

Shanter's Bassoon= Negative troll

In all seriousness outside of the "tunes" thread of which i like your taste in music, i don't think I've seen you post once where it hasn't been negative in some way, either politically, or attacking or ridiculing or trying to stir up another swellnet poster, mostly lame attempts to be funny or clever.

Maybe one day you should try to bring something positive to the forum.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 7:45am

Gonna have to intervene...

SB, you have to lay off the ad hominen attacks. Adversarial argument is fine when it at least attempts ideological persuasion, a strategy you long ago tossed aside.

So you don't like someone's opinions, I'm not sure what you think direct abuse will achieve but I can't see it as anything but counter productive.

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GuySmiley commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 9:58am

There is a lot to dislike about AFL umpiring.
One of my pet hates is how umpires turn a blind eye all game to the niggler who constantly blocks, hangs on, impedes, carps and is generally in the ear of an opposition player. That opposition player finally cracks it and turns around and dishes out a well deserved whack and bang you're on report son. Sometimes there is no justice in the world.

Shatner'sBassoon's picture
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Shatner'sBassoon commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 10:10am

"Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 10:13am

But can pigs email is the question?

Shatner'sBassoon's picture
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Shatner'sBassoon commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 10:16am

Answer: when pigs get annoyed, they can do most anything! Even fly.

Yeah, nah.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 1:36pm

"One of my pet hates is how umpires turn a blind eye all game to the niggler who constantly blocks, hangs on, impedes, carps and is generally in the ear of an opposition player. That opposition player finally cracks it and turns around and dishes out a well deserved whack and bang you're on report son. Sometimes there is no justice in the world."

I couldn't agree more...

Sheepdog

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 4:02pm

I think i play a fair game within the rules.

I know we don't always agree, but imagine how boring it would be if you guys didn't have me Sypkan and Blowin here evening out the discussion with a slight right take on things.

A one sided discussion is pretty boring.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 4:31pm

"There is no conversation more boring than the one where everybody agrees" - Michel de Montaigne

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 4:50pm

Yeah I'm not too sure about that stu...

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 5:00pm

You may be correct, ol' Michel wasn't living in a time of real estate speculation and daytime soaps.

chook's picture
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chook commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 5:09pm

hume (or locke) has a similar saying...the only thing more pointlless than arguing for the unarguable is arguing for what we all accept.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 5:47pm

Oooooh the Christopher Pyne of Swellnet says he plays fair ....... well, that's my late afternoon amusement sorted.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 5:50pm

"You may be correct, ol' Michel wasn't living in a time of real estate speculation and daytime soaps"

He wasn't living in a time of "fake news", clickbait, and Trumpisms either.

Sheepdog

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 6:55pm

for those overly offended, then why not just record your own opinions. you can play it back at night in bed nodding your head in agreement.

who was it that said 'opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one'.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 7:04pm

"who was it that said 'opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one'."

Wasn't me, I reckon it's a dumb comment, everyone's got a belly button too but what does that tell us about the nature of opinions?

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 7:10pm

most of them stink.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 7:23pm

'Most' of them?

Even on my best days mine is as fruity as a surf club bog, yet my opinions are always spicy and righteous.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 28 Aug 2017 at 8:04pm

.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 29 Aug 2017 at 8:06am

Guy Smiley

Point out where i don't play by the rules?

Cut and paste and example.

I think you will really be hard pressed to find a thread or example, where i haven't stuck to the topic on hand and i have lowered myself to personally abuse etc.

Go back and check out the treaty thread, Herc was constantly calling me names and abusing me and how did i react?

Having an opinion that differs from yours, doesn't mean i am breaking rules.