The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

seeds's picture
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seeds Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 10:50pm

?si=PZsnnRackqQ8LKgj

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 11:37pm
ashsam wrote:

Even the brothers can’t agree.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/latrell-mitchell-trashes-anthony-mundi...

This is your reply?
Not sure how your day was, but mine was spent at a funeral.
Still gave you the courtesy of a thoughtful reply, and all you have is a link that shows a lack of comprehension.
The fact i have to explain prep school racism to you,...and you still can't comprehend it.
Just as i thought. Nothing but mud between those ears.

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ashsam Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 11:52am

Bring back blowin and brutus

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Supafreak Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 12:26pm
ashsam wrote:

Bring back blowin and brutus

I think you will find they are both free to comment as SJY & Sharkman

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 12:41pm
ashsam wrote:

Bring back blowin and brutus

The shear fact you don’t even know who Brutus is , further highlights how much of a tool you really are. AW

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seeds Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 12:48pm

And Blowin had issues with Brutus.

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basesix Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 1:00pm

speaking of historic injustices, apologies @southern, my last comments to you, made during the surf comps, I reread the next day.. intended as chummy and the sort of thing my mum would say to me if I was underslept, but just sounded weird and critical. Not my intention at all, sorry. dehydration after 10km metro beach walk in 40 degrees is my only excuse.

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southernraw Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 1:05pm

All good @basesix. You're all time. No need to apologise.
That whale was hilarious btw.
Steppin back from online stuff a little bit.
Cheers.

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basesix Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 1:08pm

Cheers mate.

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ashsam Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 2:30pm
AlfredWallace wrote:
ashsam wrote:

Bring back blowin and brutus

The shear fact you don’t even know who Brutus is , further highlights how much of a tool you really are. AW

sure
AS lol

ps easy to call someone a tool from behind your keyboard, face to face don't think so.

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truebluebasher Tuesday, 26 Mar 2024 at 5:43pm

PM Howard's 25th Harmony Day Highlights
Token piss take day to denounce Aboriginality as an unruly form of Multiculturalism.
21st March 1999...Celebrates the mass killing of objectors to apartheid passport
https://www.mamamia.com.au/harmony-day-history/

Howard : "Tick & Tick ...no need to change the date!"

33 Views :

7 views :

109 views :

Sing along...all are invited to perform this song at school for free (No fees are charged!)

Department of Home Affairs...Flag Waving High Teas / Luncheons / Picnics / Citizenship Ceremonies
https://www.harmony.gov.au/events/harmony-week-events

Harmony Week culminates with Parliament rushing laws to deport and or jail all orange people.
Oz Parliaments will be lit in Orange tonight to celebrate the Deportation of Orange People
Like to think tbb is making that up...sadly not....just another celebration that turned to shit...or more shitty!
Happy Harmony Week to Past & Present Detained Orange People & have a nice holiday until you die!
https://www.examiner.com.au/story/8568658/immigrants-could-face-jail-if-...
https://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/WebCMS/LatestNews.nsf/News/Harmony%20Week

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Slackjawedyokel Wednesday, 27 Mar 2024 at 4:51pm

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 27 Mar 2024 at 5:36pm
Slackjawedyokel wrote:

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

True dat.

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ashsam Wednesday, 27 Mar 2024 at 7:28pm
basesix's picture
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basesix Friday, 29 Mar 2024 at 1:08pm

interesting Qld news article out of southwest Victoria, re colonial monuments
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/victoria/destroy-monuments-to-...

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Friday, 29 Mar 2024 at 2:26pm

Anybody see this episode of Atlanta?
All about reparations.

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/watch/2014235715878

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I focus Friday, 29 Mar 2024 at 3:17pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Slackjawedyokel wrote:

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

True dat.

Actually its ignorance there is a huge difference at many levels between those living in remote areas / townships and cities.

Still what Eddie Betts kids copped in their own backyard highlights the disparity even for city Aboriginals.

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truebluebasher Tuesday, 2 Apr 2024 at 3:20pm

Sounds of Silence (Voice Transparency)

Political Parties ($ Most > $ Least)
NO = [LNP] $2.8m + [AUP] $1.9m
YES = [ALP] $0.9m + [Teals] $300,000

(Total Unions) + Solo Corps = $1m each...NSW Uni $11m + $7m foundation

Most honest angelic goody goody Samaritans were always gonna be the YES Groups...Boo!
(93.6%) Uluru Group (NSW Uni) disclosed = $10.3m/$11m
(89.36%) Yes23 disclosed $42m/$47m

(vs)

Least trustworthy most cowardly Loudest Pack of Dr NO Evil Bastards collectively lost their voice!
(NO surprises here then...[LNP] rogues gallery of Faceless Overlords pulling puppet strings!)
(41.6%) Fair Australia disclosed less than half... $4.9m / $11.8m
(0.98%) Advance Australia disclosed $102,000 but received $1.3m and spent $10.4m ...well durr!

Shadow Indigenous Minister #1Price 4 PM declared less than 1% of her Indigenous Voting Donations.
Dutto : "Oz least accountable Pollie Jacinta will soon be in charge of $4.2b /yr Indigenous Budget!"
Jacinta : "Oz Voters mandated $4.116b to me and $8.4m tax for the rest of my Mob...Luv White Straya!"

AEC : "Unless we hear of any other...Nope!"
"60% of Oz are good with that Jacinta! It's all yours...Go the whole hog!"
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/16/02/76598181-12634169-No_campaign...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/referendum-disclosures-yes-comfor...

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 2 Apr 2024 at 5:24pm

From today:

"Yes campaign groups received more than five times as much in donations as no side in voice referendum"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/02/voice-referendum-...

Then add in the fact Labor were in power so naturally had the advantage of having the spotlight and media attention, then add in the info campaign itself naturally favoured the Yes camp, then add in all the media attention and support from sporting bodies, musician's, celebrities, big business, banks, mining companies, religious groups, universities, councils etc

But end of the day democracy won, cause a result couldn't be bought.

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truebluebasher Wednesday, 3 Apr 2024 at 3:01am

( Democracy has long lost it's Voice )
Democracy Peaked in mid 90's falling from Howard's executive overrules by 0.5% each year...
2022 Federal 89.8% Reffo 89.9% By Elections = Aston 85.6% Fadden 72.5% Dunkley 83.7%
Govts beg AEC to do something...like OZ/US Child Medicare > Direct / secured Immigrant Parent Rolls.

Democracy pump primes [L] FUD Boomers but is restricted to lowly 50% of Aboriginal Population.
36% are too young to Vote + 14% live too remote to ever know of AEC to ever venture or not!
Highest First Nation Election turnouts = 24%-50% or (25% of First Nation Population)
12% of total remote First Nation Vote in NT Elections (re: Vic / SA State Voice Votes...par for the course)

Oz Democracy rates as poorest most deprived example of Indigenous Voice & getting worse...plain sad!
Well maybe just us non voters notice such obvious deprived anomaly...let Oz voters defend it...go for it!

Clear to all Academics that mandating Democracy is #1 known & proven racist act upon Aborigines!
Any Govt advocating mandatory Elections for 1st Nation legitimacy is unjust and only escalates racism.

Oz / UN +World screamed that out loud from Start > Campaign > Reffo Result shocking the World.
Not one nation in favour of outcome...all wishing & championing Hell YES! Now already Oz...just do it!

First Nation ever beg UN Health Advocates to yield more direct just outcomes with $4.2b yr budget!

5 year ~ First Nation Oz Democracy Timeline + all failed itemized costings below

2019 Fed Election ( First Nation ) ~Turnout 50%
2020 NT Election ( First Nation ) ~ Turnout 24%-50%
2022 (1987 est : Survey held just after each election) 2,500 Aust Election Study
Strongly/Support for recognition of Indigenous Australians in Constitution
Green 93% ALP 91% Oz 80% [LNP] 69% Others 66% (So what happened?)

Uluru Statement (Quote $27.7m > Total Cost $83m) Separate Cost is Independent of Reffo
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parlia...
+ (NSW Uni Uluru = $11m > Includes Reffo Campaign)

2021 Voice Reffo (Quote $188m > 2023 [L] Deluxe Model $450m)

Nov 2022 (NPA) Oppose Voice Reffo to Parliament (We want no part of it...Cough!)

Feb 2023 [L] Debate: Despise Paternalism > Support Less Govt, Individual-Community Liberty = [Voice]
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/08/liberal-senator-a...
Fed / State [L] Support Reffo [YES] ...but soon all changes...
[L] Vow to oppose Voice unless demands are met = Restore Full Public Reffo Fanfare + Booklets.
[L] Gold Star Reffo Cost goes thru the Roof with Dutto Wrapping his entire Schools with his Reffo merch!
[L] Campaign...Liberals reserve our right to forever control First Nation...[Vote NO]...Can't breathe!

May/June 2023 ($85m)Vic Voice ~ Turnout 10%

Aug 2023 National Party now Support holding the Voice Reffo & Campaign for NO Vote.
Nationals are now Championing the Reffo & branding Nationals Price as the Loudest Voice in Reffo!
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=863973288417015&set=pb.100044130549...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=868166187997725&set=pb.100044130...

Coalition went from hating the Voice to Drooling all over it...more Division Please...Polls Skyrocketing!

Aug 2023 LNP ($450m) 1st [L] Reffo enrollments were well ahead of any AEC Reffo Writs
Fake [L] Reffo #1 was declared invalid & banned by AEC
Many [L] voters were duped & failed to re-enroll in time for the 2nd of 4 [L] Reffos" (see 9th Oct)

Sept 2023 AEC Enrollment 97.7% First Nation 94.1%

Sept 2023 LNP were campaigning 4 Indigenous Reffos (2x [Vote No] Reffos + 2x [Vote Yes] Reffos)
[LNP] Fed / State Leaders flipped from [YES]< > [NO]< > [ 1/2/3/4 Reffos?] < > [Don't Know] Chaos!
Premium [L] Shitfuckery ramped Bully Mayhem > [L] Polls Skyrocketing to record high 20% [L] gains!

9 Oct 2023 [L] Finally apologize for Harvesting souls with their Fake #1 Reffo
[L] If ya hurry ya can still enroll in our New improved Posh Gold Standard #2 Reffo.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/09/indigenous-voice-...

14 Oct 2023 Oz ($450m) OZ Voice ~ Turnout 89.9% > First Nation Turnout (?) Taboo!
No amount of record spend + AEC / Green Ant + Reviews can record silent indigenous Voice!
If none know how many First Nation must scream to get our attention, then none ever have to listen!
AEC know exactly how many First Nation voted...so why not share whateva voided indigenous turnout?
Guessing we're talkin' record high Enrollment plummeted pretty fast...too fast for our eyes to even notice!

Oct / Nov 2023 Remaining [L] State Leaders cowardly tore up their First Nation Promised Treaties!

March 2024 ($6.1m) SA Voice Turnout under 10%

Upcoming #3 #4 [L] Reffos

2025 Election ($450m) [L] Vote [YES] First Nation Constitutional Recognition Reffo?
2026/27 If elected Mid Term ($450m) [L] Vote [YES] First Nation Constitutional Recognition Reffo?
[L] Leader...has never ruled out his proposed Reffos ..lower rank [LNP] Members give mixed answers!

Almost as if we exported Oz Voice angst to NZ...Good Luck Cuz!

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Pop Down Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 9:05am

tbb

How does Democracy PEAK ?

In the US , voting is not compulsory like here , turnout is lower , but its still a democracy .

Perhaps , Australians just don't like Politicians wasting our time with a Political , Referendum .

Politicians , hand balling THEIR work , 2 us .

Maybe they will FINALLY get the message , after The Voice was Flat .

A Pleb , not a Ref , might also be a better idea FFS .

Australians are just sick and tired of Political Inactivity , NOT Democracy !

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 11:16am

"How does Democracy PEAK ?"

Maybe check this out Pop.

Here's an intro.

"...various measures used by political scientists to measure the health and well-being of representative democracy are on a downward trend. Amongst these measures, four stand out:

i)voter turnout,
ii) party membership,
iii) trust in politicians, and
iv) interest in politics.

i) The golden age of voter turnout was half a century ago, and since then we have seen a fairly steady decline more or less across the board as far as the advanced democracies are concerned.

ii) [another] measure of the decline of representative democracy is the decline of party membership.
Parties are the crucial point of mediation between citizens and the institutions of governance and are thus a vital measure of health as far as political engagement is concerned.
Again, the picture is clear.
In the 1960s it was common to see around 30 per cent of the voting population in the advanced democracies as members of political parties.
Today we see a fraction of that figure, often as low as one to two per cent of the voting population.
Citizens are deserting political parties in droves.
The result is that parties are forced to huddle up to other sources of financial support, notably corporations and private benefactors.
This feeds the problem of distance from the ordinary citizen, creating a vicious circle.
The closer they get to business, the less they seem to care about the needs and wishes of the ordinary voter, or indeed party member.

iii) Survey after survey shows that we hold politicians in near complete contempt. A recent survey in Australia found that only four per cent of citizens thought that politicians could 'almost always' be trusted. Another survey placed politicians in last place among a basket of professionals that included second-hand car salesmen, lawyers and estate agents.

iv) Interest in politics. Whatever measure one cares to choose, whether it be the number of pages in the newspapers devoted to coverage of mainstream politics, the number of hours broadcast on the popular or mainstream media devoted to elections and parliament, or the general knowledge of ordinary citizens, the picture is bleak.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedu...

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Pop Down Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 12:06pm

That's all interest in what our politicians are up to , how they are doing , how much we Trust them and how tired we are of them stuffing up .

Nothing 2 doing with Democracy !

Also , we are more busy today .

What Unionists want to join the fn Labor party , today ?

Australians STILL care about having the Right , 2 throw OUT , anyone we don';t like .

Try and take away our Democracy , and Watch Australia FIGHT back .

Hitler tried it last time .

Our Democracy has not Peaked , it's just a Lull in Interest , as our current crop of politicians are NOT Inspiring !!! imho .

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stunet Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 11:57am
AndyM wrote:

The result is that parties are forced to huddle up to other sources of financial support, notably corporations and private benefactors.
This feeds the problem of distance from the ordinary citizen, creating a vicious circle.
The closer they get to business, the less they seem to care about the needs and wishes of the ordinary voter, or indeed party member.

The nub of it.

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 12:59pm

Nothing to do with democracy Pop?

Stone the crows! :)

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 1:46pm
stunet wrote:
AndyM wrote:

The result is that parties are forced to huddle up to other sources of financial support, notably corporations and private benefactors.
This feeds the problem of distance from the ordinary citizen, creating a vicious circle.
The closer they get to business, the less they seem to care about the needs and wishes of the ordinary voter, or indeed party member.

The nub of it.

I was wondering if it was the chicken or the egg - did the involvement of big business drive people away from being card carrying party members or did the decline in membership open the doors for the corporations but it seems like it might have been the latter as party membership really started to decline in the 60s.
At the same time you could argue that this profound dissatisfaction with party politics has lead to a real revival in independent movements and grassroots campaigning.
Some have labelled this as being "rusted off".
This has been going on in earnest since maybe around 2013 and clearly bore real fruit at the last federal election.
Campaign models and strategies for independents are becoming so sophisticated that they are more effective than those employed by the two majors, which can only be a good thing for democracy.

One point I would disagree with in the APH "The Contemporary Crisis of Representative Democracy" paper is their claim that people are less interested in politics.
I think people are more and more interested in politics but haven't been able to work out where to focus that interest.
With on-line campaigns, crowdfunding, town hall meetings and the rest of it,
the game has irrevocably changed.
Especially since they have seen tangible results on the crossbench

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flollo Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 4:04pm

If that is the criteria Andy then one could argue that the CCP in China is a pinnacle of modern democracy. Nearly 100 million people are members of the party and one needs to be approved before joining. There is even a 1-year probationary term before being fully accepted.

My point is: the Chinese are eager to get involved while we are disillusioned and uninterested.

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 4:14pm

It's a single criteria in a democracy - we were talking abut "peak democracy".

Agree with your point though.

We need to get our shit together.

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 4:14pm

Folio I feel this is better over on the Next Federal Election thread.

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soggydog Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 5:07pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Slackjawedyokel wrote:

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

True dat.

Socialism would also allow for everyone to be treated equally, which in the above shoddy/lazy equivocation we know not to be the case. There’s a lot more to the situation than social security. But that’s just my opinion.

Not surprised at ur cheerleader SJY.

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Supafreak Saturday, 13 Apr 2024 at 7:51am

Muzza’s fizza , next rort ? Try politics again ? Love the genuine smile on this pair of cockroaches. https://theklaxon.com.au/mundines-10m-mining-deal-collapses/ IMG-6339. Have we got a deal for you .

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truebluebasher Wednesday, 8 May 2024 at 2:12pm

Indigenous Voice Grand Finalist voted out of Eurovision Referendum.

Oz / Eurovision debate + (Electric Fields) History + 2024 Low ranking.
This is actually an in-depth pre Party review

Track Intro

"Spill the Tea on Reality and the 0.618" + Aussie Tribute...
https://www.aussievision.net/post/five-things-we-discovered-about-one-mi....

(Interpretation for all them Eurotrash who voted Don't Know!)

One Blood (SBS) intro + (Live)
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/the-stage-is-set-for-electric-fields...

Voting Results

Oz Reaction

Official SBS Eurovision Referendum Results Verification
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/electric-fields-eliminated-from-euro...

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sameaswas Monday, 13 May 2024 at 2:04pm

Tbb not into ev but watched a weebit.
Saw the parade of finalists and out struts israel and the backing music lyrics were " i don't care"... "i do what i want", can't remember the pop group or songs name.
Had no idea of her performance or controversy, good on her, but i cracked up laughing at the backing music, no way that was'nt deliberate, political statement maybe?

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AlfredWallace Monday, 20 May 2024 at 2:01pm

Same old, same old.

New Caledonia riots.

The very essence of their genesis, another example of the erosion and dilution of indigenous people’s (Kanaks) voice and representation.

France says the rules must be changed to allow more Europeans to vote so as to support a democracy.

What about the democracy of the original inhabitants of that land mass ?

Where have I seen this before? Shits me totally, disregard for the ‘true’ land owners. Disgusting.AW

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southernraw Monday, 20 May 2024 at 5:29pm

Agreed AW. Been keeping an eye on this and the same thoughts crossed my mind.

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AlfredWallace Monday, 20 May 2024 at 6:32pm
southernraw wrote:

Agreed AW. Been keeping an eye on this and the same thoughts crossed my mind.

Southernraw. Good stuff pal.

Frontier mentality still in operation. Capitals like London, Paris, shit loads of kilometres away, but still calling or called the shots of their ‘colonies’.

Kanaks in particular have been used (here) and abused there (NCal) for centuries .

I still find it ironic when I hear people (especially sports people )who are about to travel to Australia from one of the two aforementioned, remark to a reporter/journalist/camera person, that they are looking forward to going ‘out’ to Australia or any overridden colony or country, it’s like they’ve conquered it. Makes me sick.
It’s like we are viewed as some last resort outpost in the antipodes that’s one class behind them.
A solemn reminder these countries were doing very well without these colonisers and have faired very poorly ever since, doesn’t look like stopping either.
So called ‘developed’ countries need to take a long hard look in the mirror of humanity. AW

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wax24 Monday, 20 May 2024 at 8:45pm

So called ‘developed’ countries need to take a long hard look in the mirror of humanity. AW

Hey A-Dub..... I am in agreement with your sentiment. Makes one look harder at the word "humane." It connotates an individual treating another as they would like to be treated, right? But, humans debasing each other is, unfortunately, also a very human way to behave. A true mirror of humanity would hafta include the dark with the light. The question, to me, is how to get from where we are to a better place. There are not only different answers to that question, there are also many who don't want to get to that better place. When the setup is "winners and losers" only half will have a problem with it. And that'll be the lesser leveraged half.

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AlfredWallace Monday, 20 May 2024 at 9:20pm
wax24 wrote:

So called ‘developed’ countries need to take a long hard look in the mirror of humanity. AW

Hey A-Dub..... I am in agreement with your sentiment. Makes one look harder at the word "humane." It connotates an individual treating another as they would like to be treated, right? But, humans debasing each other is, unfortunately, also a very human way to behave. A true mirror of humanity would hafta include the dark with the light. The question, to me, is how to get from where we are to a better place. There are not only different answers to that question, there are also many who don't want to get to that better place. When the setup is "winners and losers" only half will have a problem with it. And that'll be the lesser leveraged half.

Wax24. Hey fella. Very well expressed my friend, you nailed it with your succinct but true words and sentiment.
I’m always wanting the questions answered and for establishments to act and stop treating FNP globally like second class citizens, they’ve had lots to share with us and we’ve had lots to learn from them. We simply just, blew it. AW

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southernraw Monday, 20 May 2024 at 9:49pm

I believe to some extent, there's hope in future generations. You can already see it in the change of attitudes with younger crew. To what extent, time will tell. Influences of the older generations are perpetuated in much of the colonial lineage through to present day which continues to drag the anchor in any substantial progress (the Voice being a prime example)
The ball is rolling though. Cumbersomely, at times backwards, but it's rolling.
Cheers fellas. Great posts.

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wax24 Monday, 20 May 2024 at 10:31pm

AW.... we blew it with our native population, too.
SR.... i like your point of view and hope you are right.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 21 May 2024 at 8:40am

I just read about what the actual vote changes are.

"The Accord restricted voting in local elections to the Indigenous people and migrants who have been living in New Caledonia before 1998.

It also allowed for three referendums to determine the future of the country and, in all three, independence from France was rejected.

Voter turnout in the last referendum was impacted by a boycott from pro-independence groups.

What has triggered the latest violence are controversial constitutional changes that would grant French residents who have lived in the territory for 10 years, voting rights."

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/whats-behind-the-worst-viole...

Forget ethnicity all together but it doesn't sound very democratic to only allow certain residents to vote and some not, a proper democracy should allow all people of voting age to vote.

Not sure how it works with those born since 98? Even if voting rights gets passed on what happens if one parents was living there before 98 and one after?

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andy-mac Tuesday, 21 May 2024 at 8:43am

""Forget ethnicity all together but it doesn't sound very democratic to only allow certain residents to vote and some not, a proper democracy should allow all people of voting age to vote.""

Kind of sounds like another country that has been in the news recently. mmm

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stunet Tuesday, 21 May 2024 at 9:10am
indo-dreaming wrote:

Forget ethnicity all together but it doesn't sound very democratic to only allow certain residen

The issue with that is New Cal has a small population and the Kanaks are a 40% minority, so it'd be very easy for Paris to manipulate voting blocs by resettling people. Even without that, recent settlers will have different politics which will destabilise, at least in the short term, voting patterns. There will be winners and losers.

Worth comparing Tahiti, another part of French Polynesia, with New Cal. I recall visiting Teahupoo for the first time and walking into the village and seeing a fire hydrant. The road had ended, entrance was by foot, but services such as electricity and clean water - and fire hydrants - continued. Similar levels of services are found around the main island and Moorea, and apparently the distant islands too though I've never visited them.

May not sound like much but providing services, including these days fast internet, is part of the contract that Paris pays to quell local uprising. They've displayed it in other ways too; when Germany bombed Papeete in WW1, French defence was lacking but it was the last time they took Tahiti for granted. In WW2, Tahiti willingly sided with the Allies and stayed that way, even after the global independence movement post-war.

Keep the locals prosperous and happy is the motto.

On another note: I've chatted to Tim Bonython a few times - he's caught in the middle, locked down in Noumea - and though there's sympathy for the local Kanaks he says much of the unrest isn't necessarily ideological but driven by bored, angry youth.

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 21 May 2024 at 1:03pm
andy-mac wrote:

""Forget ethnicity all together but it doesn't sound very democratic to only allow certain residents to vote and some not, a proper democracy should allow all people of voting age to vote.""

Kind of sounds like another country that has been in the news recently. mmm

Every person in Israel of voting age has exactly the same democratic rights to vote, and the Arab voter turn out is one of the highest of all ethnic groups in Israel.

There is also about four Arab political parties and many Arab politicians.

These parties sometimes form coalition's sometimes not and have held seats before.

Here are the Arab political parties in Israel

United Arab List (Ra'am)
is an Islamist and conservative political party in Israel and the political wing of the Southern Branch of the Islamic movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List

The Arab Movement for Renewal, commonly known by its Hebrew acronym Ta'al,[a] is an Arab nationalist political party in Israel led by Ahmad Tibi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%27al

Maki (political party)The Israeli Communist Party, commonly known by its Hebrew abbreviation Maki (Hebrew: מק״י), is a far-left, communist and anti-Zionist political party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki_(political_party)

Hadash is a left-wing party that supports a socialistic economy[13] and workers' rights. It emphasizes Jewish–Arab cooperation, and its leaders were among the first to support a two-state solution. Its voters are principally middle class and secular Arabs, many from the north and Christian communities.[14] It also draws 6,000–10,000 far-left Jewish voters during national elections.[15]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadash

As much as i and others believe Samaria and Judea(West Bank) should be recognised as part of Israel currently its a disputed territory, made up of of different zones Israel controlling some areas Palestine controlling others, Arabs can vote in Palestinian elections, Israeli's can vote in Israelis elections, neither can vote in other elections.

East Jerusalem and Golan height's sits in a funny area also technically not part of Israel but arabs there can vote in both Israel and Palestine although they have only had local elections in Palestine and haven't had a proper election since i think 2010.

Gaza well its not part of Israel and had their last election in 2006 and elected Hamas, enough said.

But yeah if you get your information from Tik Tok or a Qatar sponsored media outlet (if we can call it that) then yeah you might think Arabs cant vote in Israel, because yes that's what they would love you to believe.

southernraw's picture
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southernraw Wednesday, 22 May 2024 at 12:45pm
stunet wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

Forget ethnicity all together but it doesn't sound very democratic to only allow certain residen

The issue with that is New Cal has a small population and the Kanaks are a 40% minority, so it'd be very easy for Paris to manipulate voting blocs by resettling people. Even without that, recent settlers will have different politics which will destabilise, at least in the short term, voting patterns. There will be winners and losers.

Worth comparing Tahiti, another part of French Polynesia, with New Cal. I recall visiting Teahupoo for the first time and walking into the village and seeing a fire hydrant. The road had ended, entrance was by foot, but services such as electricity and clean water - and fire hydrants - continued. Similar levels of services are found around the main island and Moorea, and apparently the distant islands too though I've never visited them.

May not sound like much but providing services, including these days fast internet, is part of the contract that Paris pays to quell local uprising. They've displayed it in other ways too; when Germany bombed Papeete in WW1, French defence was lacking but it was the last time they took Tahiti for granted. In WW2, Tahiti willingly sided with the Allies and stayed that way, even after the global independence movement post-war.

Keep the locals prosperous and happy is the motto.

On another note: I've chatted to Tim Bonython a few times - he's caught in the middle, locked down in Noumea - and though there's sympathy for the local Kanaks he says much of the unrest isn't necessarily ideological but driven by bored, angry youth.

Interesting observations on Tahiti Stu.
Found this study of indigenous Canadians. One of the highest factors of suicide was the lack of self governance.
Good graph on page 240. (you might have to zoom in)
Just reinforces to me what we might have lost in voting NO in the voice.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241607902_Cultural_continuity_a...

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 22 May 2024 at 7:22pm
seeds's picture
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seeds Wednesday, 22 May 2024 at 9:17pm

?si=J9Ek9ChSRjGe3stp

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southernraw Wednesday, 22 May 2024 at 10:23pm
Jelly Flater wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Qh0UKoPZ8/?igsh=MXhmMmhpYjNiNGltYw%3D%3D

haha. Someone may need to explain to 'Senator' Hanson the fundamentals of continuity of culture that gives rise to Indigeneity.....as opposed to earning your stripes just by default of birth.
I'm sure she already knew this but just chose not to say it......or is she really that much of a simpleton but backs her media presence and unquestioning political supporters to be able to just spurt things out without even knowing if they're true or what they actually mean??
Mind boggling.
"have a continuous connection to their pre-colonial and/or pre-settler society
• retain strong links to their territories, land and natural resources
• retain distinct social, economic and political systems
• retain distinct language, culture and beliefs
• are usually the non-dominant group in the society
• are determined to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive
peoples and communities.
Article 33 of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (2007) asserts that
‘indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with
their customs and traditions’ (p. 24). Nevertheless, the issue of who can lay claim to being indigenous
is also a political question serving to reinforce colonial power – which is a social and cultural question
among indigenous communities (Paradies, 2016)"