The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

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mikehunt207 Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 12:20am

Interesting watch Southern, crazy to see it in real life like that , the "camps" , US basketball culture on everyone, private security and racist policing , nobody with anything to do except run wild , all ages show
No improvement anytime soon by the looks of things either
Life is hard enough when you have waves to surf

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southernraw Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:00am

Bloody oath MH. Long way to the nearest wave in any direction from there!

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:21am
sypkan wrote:

I watched that vid ^^^^

both hilarious and tragic

sad, that US gangsta culture has had such a huge influence in aboriginal society...

sad, that things have been allowed to get so out of hand...

sad, that alice is such a ghost town by day, then by night... that happens...

it's kinda 'a party' ...but fuck me, so much misery... and waste of resources, $$$ and otherwise...

near impossible to turn that train around

and sadly, I reckon a voice would achieve fuck all...

as has been stated, there's many voices already... not being listened to...

not least from labor's own side

city slickers - and the general evolution of 'the left' of politics - are just too culturally and ideologically different to what's out there...

world's apart

https://nit.com.au/22-02-2024/9914/marion-scrymgour-says-youth-laws-aren...

ironically, aboriginal culture is more aligned with 'tough love' over contemporary pussy footing approaches

Finished it last night, it was actually quite good having the local guys insight is always valuable, fark the brah's this brahs that got a bit annoying though.

Sound was a bit shitty at times hard to hear the Aboriginal lad speak at times and could have done with more editing but still nice insight in a raw way.

It actually goes very well with Avi's report what Avi didn't cover the Spaniard did, but what the spaniard didnt cover Avi did, for instance Avi gave a much better insight into the younger crew the untouchable's and just the public's thoughts including many everyday older Aboriginal folk on the street, the Spaniard just a better insight into the reckless aspect and neighbourhood etc.

And IMHO there is still so many other aspects a proper full length docco could dive into, go talk to the elders and leaders of the communities and there is much more of a story on why these under age kids are running amok after dark (a whole story in itself)

In regard to embracing the USA wanna be gangster culture it was even more noticeable in Avi's voideos talking to the much younger kids.

&t=31s

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velocityjohnno Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 12:55pm

That Spanian vid was nuts, he has a great skillset & strong empathy for the people he's with. Could relate to the out of control madness of the rolling street party and that sense of craziness and unpredictability with a background of not much to do - but in this case machetes are drawn readily and people get knocked out, not just a few punches. All the young people who came up to him in the vid were so happy to see him and were great telling their stories, they were going out and doing what you do when you are young... but it's got that out of control aspect magnified.

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velocityjohnno Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 1:10pm

& also all the shopfronts with the rolla doors and metal mesh, saw that in the midwest 30 years ago, looked familiar. It's a nuts situation and I don't know how to fix it, what struck me was how well the young people spoke to him too, and his guides knew the town and were able to really show what it's like.

It's a very different experience if you are walking & drinking etc amongst the party vs if you have a business getting smashed or are brought in for work and walled into the motel compound, have seen both sides.

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southernraw Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 6:46pm
velocityjohnno wrote:

That Spanian vid was nuts, he has a great skillset & strong empathy for the people he's with. Could relate to the out of control madness of the rolling street party and that sense of craziness and unpredictability with a background of not much to do - but in this case machetes are drawn readily and people get knocked out, not just a few punches. All the young people who came up to him in the vid were so happy to see him and were great telling their stories, they were going out and doing what you do when you are young... but it's got that out of control aspect magnified.

Yeah he does great vids VJ and he's also an inspiration to alot of young kids like these, and shows it's possible to turn your life around completely.
Which is a good thing.
He even does one in my old hood Dandenong, where if you look closely as he passes the markets, you can see some bogan in an Island t-shirt lining up a burka wearing muslim lady for a hip and shoulder ;-)
And yes @AlfredWallace, it only took the shittiest, slimiest stinkiest bit of bait to get the bottom dwellers to the surface and jabbering like absolute muppets...again. hehe. Geez, you'd think they'd just humbly accept their 'victory' and move on,....but nup....i guess they really are racist's after all that just wanna keep sinking the boot in.

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I focus Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 6:55pm

Just saw the vid "hood" brought back memories, seen far far worse than that in the early 80"s such sheltered lives you all live eh.

Jacinta will sort it all out... joke.

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zenagain Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 6:58pm

I watched the vid with an open mind- he really does engage with the people well.

It's a shame to see how lifeless Alice is during the day and how volatile it is at night.

Some of the older crew seem really cool. I wish they could get these little ones into line or they'll be lost forever. On the same token, gosh it must be a struggle to live there, constantly having to fortify your property and with the very real threat of violence a constant as well.

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southernraw Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 7:15pm

Yeah agree completely Zen.
Thanks heaps to all who did check out the vid.
Appreciate the open mindedness of all who did....yep even you Indo!

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:21pm

Correct me if I’m wrong but the dead daylight period was Saturday arvo. Country town hours. It’s quite lively midweek. I wouldn’t doubt the issues at night as we spent them in a nice caravan park surrounded by razor wire topping the fencing.

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:21pm
southernraw wrote:
velocityjohnno wrote:

That Spanian vid was nuts, he has a great skillset & strong empathy for the people he's with. Could relate to the out of control madness of the rolling street party and that sense of craziness and unpredictability with a background of not much to do - but in this case machetes are drawn readily and people get knocked out, not just a few punches. All the young people who came up to him in the vid were so happy to see him and were great telling their stories, they were going out and doing what you do when you are young... but it's got that out of control aspect magnified.

Yeah he does great vids VJ and he's also an inspiration to alot of young kids like these, and shows it's possible to turn your life around completely.
Which is a good thing.
He even does one in my old hood Dandenong, where if you look closely as he passes the markets, you can see some bogan in an Island t-shirt lining up a burka wearing muslim lady for a hip and shoulder ;-)
And yes @AlfredWallace, it only took the shittiest, slimiest stinkiest bit of bait to get the bottom dwellers to the surface and jabbering like absolute muppets...again. hehe. Geez, you'd think they'd just humbly accept their 'victory' and move on,....but nup....i guess they really are racist's after all that just wanna keep sinking the boot in.

Happy hour is it? lol

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southernraw Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:38pm

Ahh Ashsam. I get the distinct feeling you're projecting your own alcohol issues onto me with your repetitive and dull accusations.
I don't drink. Haven't for ages.
Not that i need to explain that to you.
Baiting and insulting you....well you asked for it.
And i really hope i annoy you and get under your skin. Your priveleged white skin that is.
And yep, i do write provocative stuff that leans on the extreme side of things. I do it for a very good reason, but not one that i'll share with you.
It's working just fine, and it can and will benefit indigenous people in the long run.
Anyway, until you have something better than putting your own drinking issues onto me, and can actually dive a little deeper into the conversation....and not the bottle, there's little point discussing anything of substance with you.

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:43pm
southernraw wrote:

Ahh Ashsam. I get the distinct feeling you're projecting your own alcohol issues onto me with your repetitive and dull accusations.
I don't drink. Haven't for ages.
Not that i need to explain that to you.
Baiting and insulting you....well you asked for it.
And i really hope i annoy you and get under your skin. Your priveleged white skin that is.
And yep, i do write provocative stuff that leans on the extreme side of things. I do it for a very good reason, but not one that i'll share with you.
It's working just fine, and it can and will benefit indigenous people in the long run.
Anyway, until you have something better than putting your own drinking issues onto me, and can actually dive a little deeper into the conversation....and not the bottle, there's little point discussing anything of substance with you.

Guess you are on Sam Kerr’s side then and not the white copper lol?. Reverse racism that will do your head in.
What about a black fella calling another black fella a monkey, who you gonna blame there?? NRL.

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:55pm

Mate making judgements on Kerr before the courts have? Know the facts? I’ll wait. You’re a bit rank Asham.

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:57pm

Facts are she’s been charged, I don’t agree with it for the record, total BS.

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southernraw Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 8:58pm

Whataboutism doesn't change the issues in this country.
And yep...Rank indeed.
Same as he always was.

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:05pm
ashsam wrote:

Facts are she’s been charged, I don’t agree with it for the record, total BS.

Haha so you agree with her reported racism because you don’t agree with her being charged? You seemed to have a problem with reverse racism a minute ago.

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:08pm

More money won’t help, Toyota can only make so many Land Cruisers a year.

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:10pm
seeds wrote:
ashsam wrote:

Facts are she’s been charged, I don’t agree with it for the record, total BS.

Haha so you agree with her reported racism because you don’t agree with her being charged? You seemed to have a problem with reverse racism a minute ago.

Didn’t say I agreed with any of it, I asked BD the ? Get off the bongs.

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:16pm

Nah mate I’m pissed. You chugging on old Smokey with ya Land Cruiser more money etc comment. WTF
Makes no sense to me

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:26pm

Guess you haven’t been around long enough if you didn’t get that one seeds.

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:26pm

Ironically, considering this thread, I’m just watching Going Places With Ernie Dingo and his homecoming episode from his hometown which I’ve seen before. It’s one of the best as it’s the fully blackfella episode. On SBS on demand for those interested.

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southernraw Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:28pm

Ripper @seeds.
Will check it out.
Cheers.

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:44pm

ps. Drover’s Wife on on NiTV at 10.30pm probably 9.30 QLD. Great historically themed movie by Rachel Perkins

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ashsam Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 9:54pm
seeds wrote:

ps. Drover’s Wife on on NiTV at 10.30pm probably 9.30 QLD. Great historically themed movie by Rachel Perkins

Great movie that, on the streaming services too forget which one.

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seeds Thursday, 7 Mar 2024 at 10:00pm

Indeed. Love Aussie stuff.

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basesix Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 12:51pm
southernraw wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGz1Tiaying

awesome @southern, I prefer his giggly insider glorification of street drama, to dramatic Avi outsider agonising. (I understand that Avi and Spanian both self-aggrandise, and that it's the world they are operating in.)

Love the stabby mens-business feller in the blue t-oh, that pushes Arrernte language and hunting together as something positive he can offer Spanian (27:10), what a legend. Eye-opening 'blue t-oh' reckons the smashed-teeth of brutal ritual gets you the women..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4945341/

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indo-dreaming Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 1:11pm

i thought the Spaniards Alice springs episode was pretty good id give it a 8/10 (although there was a lot of fat that could have been cut) but i watched the Dandenong episode last night and thought it was pretty crap id give it a 3/10 and it reminded me why i normally dont bother watching his videos, basically just a walk through Dandenong listening to some other guy dribble shit looking for his 5 minutes of fame.

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Optimist Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 5:53pm

I watched a bit of the Alice one and even though they thought a lot of him I didn't really see him offering any wisdom or great ideas to the locals that would make their lives better as well the rest of the community who are suffering from bad choices.

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zenagain Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 6:01pm

Bad choices Opti?

You think they chose that?

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burleigh Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 6:12pm
Optimist wrote:

I watched a bit of the Alice one and even though they thought a lot of him I didn't really see him offering any wisdom or great ideas to the locals that would make their lives better as well the rest of the community who are suffering from bad choices.

Who made the bad choices?

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 6:26pm
basesix wrote:
southernraw wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGz1Tiaying

awesome @southern, I prefer his giggly insider glorification of street drama, to dramatic Avi outsider agonising. (I understand that Avi and Spanian both self-aggrandise, and that it's the world they are operating in.)

Love the stabby mens-business feller in the blue t-oh, that pushes Arrernte language and hunting together as something positive he can offer Spanian (27:10), what a legend. Eye-opening 'blue t-oh' reckons the smashed-teeth of brutal ritual gets you the women..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4945341/

Yeah i thought that was a unique insight too @basesix. Also something that stood out was how the majority of the indigenous crew were forthright in making sure Alice was called by its native name,and also not backwards in coming forward saying "its our country". You could sense the defiance in their voices.
@indo, good that u watched it. Yeah probably a soft spot having spent time there but fair points. I liked the boxing gym in doveton and what positives it has on the area.

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Optimist Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 6:54pm

Life is all about choice. If you want to fix places , send in good mentors who help create a vision for a persons future…not just people filming themselves.
Without a vision for your future you have chaos……confusion…hopelessness.
I had an old friend. ..He grew up under the worst conditions in a Latvian orphanage that you can possibly imagine. Incredible poverty and abuse.
He made a choice ….and become one of Russia's top physicists.
Give people a vision for what’s possible…..then they can make a choice.
Or not…..

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 7:19pm

Opti, with all due respect, this Spanian fella goes around the world and does the same thing.
He's simply documenting his travels and whatever flows from that is up to the viewer to interpret.
He sure aint there trying to fix anything. Nor does he pretend to.
You have to admit though, without his 'street credentials' this sort of unfiltered access would never be possible for people like you and me to be able to get a real perspective of some of what goes on in these places....well short of going there ourselves.
He affords everyone he comes across the respect all people deserve on first meeting, and he gets it back in spades. Which i find extremely heartening.
Don't shoot the messenger so to speak.
I agree with you about giving people a vision, hence why i am a strong advocate for things like the voice.(not just on a swellnet forum either).
Not that it matters now of course, as i'm constantly reminded.
Matters to me though.

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ashsam Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 8:02pm
southernraw wrote:

Opti, with all due respect, this Spanian fella goes around the world and does the same thing.
He's simply documenting his travels and whatever flows from that is up to the viewer to interpret.
He sure aint there trying to fix anything. Nor does he pretend to.
You have to admit though, without his 'street credentials' this sort of unfiltered access would never be possible for people like you and me to be able to get a real perspective of some of what goes on in these places....well short of going there ourselves.
He affords everyone he comes across the respect all people deserve on first meeting, and he gets it back in spades. Which i find extremely heartening.
Don't shoot the messenger so to speak.
I agree with you about giving people a vision, hence why i am a strong advocate for things like the voice.(not just on a swellnet forum either).
Not that it matters now of course, as i'm constantly reminded.
Matters to me though.

So what are doing to make a difference? besides posting YouTube videos and making that tosser $$.
If you want to blame anyone re the voice blame Albo.
3% indigenous, 52% white Anglo’s, 45% immigrants. Pretty sure all the 52% Anglo’s didn’t vote no, you better start blaming the immigrants BD.
You have no idea lol.
Voice is dead anyway no politician will try that again.

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goofyfoot Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 8:14pm

i get the feeling old Spaniard can handle himself pretty well?

Doesn't seem the type of guy to get intimidated too easily

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basesix Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 8:29pm

Colonel Opti,
'send in' ? go do it yourself..
proselytise even, if that's the extent of your usefulness.

plenny of whiteys doing proper good, not just spouting, I only know about the arts, like Peter Lowson, Steve Berry, Mal Webb, and fuckloads of indigenous leaders, volunteers and workers killing themselves to make a difference in hard-as circumstances while being hamstrung by bitchy bureaucratic city nothingness. I've worked with them. Sad as, the above clips, seeing storywall/ adelaide house/ todd mall/ public spaces looking so uninspiring and unloved, but good to know about it, cheers @southern & @indo.

https://www.musicoutback.com.au/
https://barklyarts.com.au/

you too, @assham, BD fuck your girlfriend back in the day or something?

(of course new immigrants voted No, well documented phenomenon: you get to the island, you want to keep your hard-earned advantage, block others, exercise your democratic powers for self. It was TOTALLY the last chance for your 52% to do a great thing, before the percentages change forever, irreversibly.)

There's a couple of people on here who think voting for self-interest is normal and expected. I would argue that Aussies have a strong culture of voting on behalf of those less advantaged.

Possibly that has changed of late. Sad fucking times if it has.

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 8:49pm

hahaha. I've been wondering the same @basesix!
Did spend a bit of time around Coffs, so the chances are high...although BD would never knowingly have done such a thing.
But yeah, bordering on creepy obsession....

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ashsam Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 8:56pm

Someone has to call you out on your woke BS

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basesix Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 9:04pm

ha, @southern, watched an episode of dontbringyamankyshithere or border control or whatever the airport thing is.. and a very nice looking black woman from the US who was a 'submissive' called 'blue diamond', was trying to get to perth to meet a client called 'paul'...
now, I would think more highly of you than to suggest any...
(true story)

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ashsam Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 9:07pm

Blue diamond, Paul McDonald, any others lol
Lidia?

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basesix Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 9:20pm
ashsam wrote:

Someone has to call you out on your woke BS

appreciate you putting it into words. why is his banter woke BS? I really dig @southern not being bleakly cynical, being pro-active and positive, celebrating things, surfers, wave posts, he's had some interesting run-ins, but is a solid-as part of this weird little community.

Digging into people for having a beer or bong problem, rather than helping them via being a good bloke is fukn weird. Not Aussie enough at all.. and @southern is a model citizen atm.. what's the beef? Just anti-wokeinessinessiness?

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 9:43pm
ashsam wrote:

Someone has to call you out on your woke BS

Interesting that you think standing up for others who's shoe's you've clearly never put yourself in, is considered anti woke.
I'll do you the courtesy of replying to your message from yesterday..if not to show you a different perspective, then to at least highlight the mud that resides between your two ears....

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 9:55pm
ashsam wrote:
southernraw wrote:

Ahh Ashsam. I get the distinct feeling you're projecting your own alcohol issues onto me with your repetitive and dull accusations.
I don't drink. Haven't for ages.
Not that i need to explain that to you.
Baiting and insulting you....well you asked for it.
And i really hope i annoy you and get under your skin. Your priveleged white skin that is.
And yep, i do write provocative stuff that leans on the extreme side of things. I do it for a very good reason, but not one that i'll share with you.
It's working just fine, and it can and will benefit indigenous people in the long run.
Anyway, until you have something better than putting your own drinking issues onto me, and can actually dive a little deeper into the conversation....and not the bottle, there's little point discussing anything of substance with you.

Guess you are on Sam Kerr’s side then and not the white copper lol?. Reverse racism that will do your head in.
What about a black fella calling another black fella a monkey, who you gonna blame there?? NRL.

Ashsam, i get the impression you equate racism to labelling of skin colours? And that's to you what racism represents. You're a whitey! No you're a blacky! No, you're a bluey!
The question is, what does the labelling of someones colour really represent. A white person maliciously calling a black person by their colour is in my opinion, having a dig at their percieved lower form of humanity.
So when you call someone a white bastard. What does that mean? What is attached to that label? What historical judgements and stereotypes are attached to that. Is it belittling the history and culture, and percieved mental aptitude of the white race? Do modern western white people in general carry the trauma of having klan members driving them out of town, being driven off cliffs, having their kids stolen from them, being seen as lessers in society because some quarters consider them primitives, the other.
When someone racially vilifies a black person, what does that mean? What is attached to that? Do you understand what i'm getting at?
In my humble opinion, there is a world of difference in a black person using a racially loaded insult against a white person, because what's the substance of the insult? You're not insulting the trauma that your race has caused for that person. You're in essence, just throwing child like insults without meaning.
A white person insulting a black person for their race...is alot deeper, when you consider the recent trauma that is associated with white/black relations.
All of the above, is very simplistic. There are exceptions, there are flaws in that line of thinking, because life isn't as dualistic as that. Or black and white if you like.
But it's a fairly rough but in my opinion accurate representation of why there's no such thing as reverse racism, in general. (not in all circumstances, there are plenty of exceptions).
So when a black person calls another black person a name. Where's the trauma from one of superiority in society, to one held down under the colonial bootstraps of society, and one who's families before them have struggled under those same bootstraps.
Does that answer your question?
Your thoughts?

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ashsam Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 10:08pm
basesix's picture
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basesix Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 10:13pm

aren't we whites disagreeing?
what do you mean? so, it is not tribal, it is ideological.
which, while a good thing, is not realty ; )

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basesix Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 10:31pm

here's a fun game @southern and @ashsam,

what about if a man-of-whiteness says:
'I am with a woman-of-colour,
and would look for another woman-of-colour,
if I needed to find a new partner'.

..or if a woman-of-colour says:
'I am with a white-Australian, and if it went south,
would go hunting for another man-of-whiteness to hook up with'?

(or vice versa re gender)

Does that mean that they are not racist -
or that they are extremely racist?

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 10:32pm

haha. Very good @basesix. Clearly highlights my points above.
What if the man of whiteness identifies as a woman of colour though? Hmm.