The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

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bluediamond Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:50pm

Yep great post grajagan.
And loving reading your in depth well informed observations Brutus. Theres so much to take away from your posts.
Cheers.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:22pm
brutus wrote:

Indo, nah wasn't me on PNG....I don't know a lot about PNG and it's issues .......are you able to answer a question I keep putting to you.....how do you view the White Australia policy ?

Okay fair enough i owe you an apology i looked back on the pages and you didnt have that view as such you avoided that topic and only made a broad comment on that issue of how ex-colonial run countries struggle with their independence.

So if PNGs issues aren't a result of colonisation, then you have to admit they are either cultural based issues or as a result of a culture being isolated for so long then being thrust into a modern world or a combination. (as i suggest)

The evidence of issues being cultural based in PNG is overwhelming, but the evidence of many indigenous issues also being cultural based is also very strong (pointed out in post in early pages)

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:34pm

Regarding White Australia policy, it was implemented 120 years ago and ended over 50 years ago, not all that relevant to today, today we rank as one of the most ethnical diverse countries in the world. (seems the most ethical diverse country in the world https://eccv.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Census2016_JUNE282017.pdf )

Many countries around the world though aren't very multicultural and other than the original people really only have expats etc China, Japan, Indonesia etc, funny enough we dont view tham as racist or something, while developed countries like Aust, USA, UK, Canada etc are among some of the most ethical diverse but still get a lot of demonisation aimed at them.

Its funny preservation of some cultures is seen as being a must, but preservation of other cultures is almost seen as racism, strange world.

IMHO Singapore has the right idea multicultural but a smart multicultural, was interesting to read the other day how they have policy for public housing areas that has to reflect the whole ethnic diversity of Singapore and not just one group to ensure they don't get problems seen in some other countries.

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bluediamond Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:55pm

@indo said.. "regarding White Australia policy, it was implemented 120 years ago and ended over 50 years ago,not all that relevant to today, today we rank as one of the most ethnical diverse countries in the world. (seems the most ethical diverse country in the world"

Not relevant today, unless you're an aboriginal Australian who's 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation relatives lived through that trauma and carry the scars today,. Surely you can understand this simple logic iindo. An innate part of being an aboriginal Australian in today's society is being brought up with the trauma of past generations directly linked to them. Wouldn't it be?

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indo-dreaming Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:55am

Even if this idea had any merit, wouldn't we see this effect gradually fade with time and each generation???

Remembering that even though the policy was officially ended 50 years ago, the way it was implemented by that stage was very very different to 100 years ago, (forgot the name of the vote) but remember the vote by Australians on an Aboriginal matter that Hutchy brought up that was back further than 50 year's and showed even by then general Australian attitudes were very different. (was quite an eye opener actually)

We would also see the most remote communities that were more isolated from the effects having the least problems, not the most.

I have absolutely no doubt you and others have only good will, but ignoring the much bigger cultural factors at play does nobody any favours, and off course the factors that have nothing to do with ethnicity/culture and that's the fact that people without purpose especially employment living in social economic disadvantage communities always have these issues at some level.

The big problem is to admit this you have to say a cultural change is needed which to most would be seen as destroying a culture that people have now put up on a pedestal and basically say it's shit doesn't stink, it would also mean that the answers to solving problems in remote communities would be to encourage them to live elsewhere where there is employment, which would also be seen as culture destroying even racist especially seeing connection to traditional lands etc is always talked about as highly important.

The result is the problems will never be solved, I'm guessing you are about my age quite a bit younger than Brutus and Hutchy, so even when those two a gone we will see it all continue and one day you might even look back and say hmm that like bastard Indo might have been right, shit still hasn't changed.

BTW. PNG never had any similar policy, how do you explain their situation?

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brutus Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:17am
indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:

Indo, nah wasn't me on PNG....I don't know a lot about PNG and it's issues .......are you able to answer a question I keep putting to you.....how do you view the White Australia policy ?

Okay fair enough i owe you an apology i looked back on the pages and you didnt have that view as such you avoided that topic and only made a broad comment on that issue of how ex-colonial run countries struggle with their independence.

So if PNGs issues aren't a result of colonisation, then you have to admit they are either cultural based issues or as a result of a culture being isolated for so long then being thrust into a modern world or a combination. (as i suggest)

The evidence of issues being cultural based in PNG is overwhelming, but the evidence of many indigenous issues also being cultural based is also very strong (pointed out in post in early pages)

Indo , any country that has been ruled by colonialists suffered damage to their existing values and culture.......life was never the same again for any of the indigenous people who were conquered militarily and economically .
yes there were some material benefits colonialists brought with them such as infrastructure/education/ guns / etc.........but the negatives out weigh the positives as ,slavery and the stripping of resources from each new colonized Country combined with the Missionaries who tried to strip the Indigenous peoples of their culture.

So here's where it get's interesting as colonialism brought material things and tried to replace their culture with a colonial version of Christianity .......while making slavery one of their biggest profit sources , and stripping the lands of their riches.....

try reading "the positives and negatives article" https://www.positivenegativeeffects.com/colonialism

PNG/African Country's etc have all suffered the consequences of colonialism.....as have we here in Australia......

Just so you know I lived through the White Australia policy , and did most of my schooling during this period...so I actually was affected by it...as was anybody born in the last 50 years....that's why we can still talk to people who were there , who experienced what is was like to not considered human , and treated as such....

the evidence that you provide is a short view compared to a comprehensive view of all the causes and affects of this dark period in our history....

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brutus Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:41am

Indo dismissing the White Australia policy as not relevant shows your immigrant status of not growing up under WAP........."
indo-dreaming wrote:

Regarding White Australia policy, it was implemented 120 years ago and ended over 50 years ago, not all that relevant to today, today we rank as one of the most ethnical diverse countries in the world. (seems the most ethical diverse country in the world https://eccv.org.au/wp-"content/uploads/2018/03/Census2016_JUNE282017.pdf )

Indo saying the White Australia policy is "not at all relevant today!".........as you said it was officially abolished 50 years ago.....I spent all my school years under the white Australia policy...the racism was horrific as I lived part of my life not being considered human enough to vote and was treated as such.
I have enormous empathy and sadness for all the blackfellas , Australia wide who lived as sub humans , were treated as such and then to suffer the dispossession of family through the Stolen Generation policy.....make the blackfellas white........

Indo there are so many people still alive , including myself that were actually on the receiving end of the affects of the White Australia Policy.......so it's not irrelevant today, because there are still a shit load of people who were adversely affected.......and in traditional First Nations Culture they are called the elders.....all elders were and are still affected by last centuries White Australia policy....

So isn't it incredible that with all the misery suffered...there is non blame , there is a sense of bitterness sometimes .....but to see what has happened to the Australia's mentality / psyche in regards to the treatment and now embracing First Nations culture, in incredibly heartening and brings hope for a much better Australia for all of us!

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brutus Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 4:27pm

Indo , an ever changing History ...new facts brought to life ....more clarity .......

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/do-you-have-a-tasmanian-conv...

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indo-dreaming Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 5:12pm

As i said before we re-started this conversation we are just going to go around in circles.

It was all addressed on about page 8.

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brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:01am
indo-dreaming wrote:

As i said before we re-started this conversation we are just going to go around in circles.
It was all addressed on about page 8.

Indo , just trying to point out that your claim history doesn't change much , is not true.....it's been a very interesting conversation as I try to understand why people like you are so rusted onto your views.
I think it's pretty obvious why you just like to deal with the here and now , and dismiss any changes to Australia's colonial history.....you have not grown up being an Australian , but an immigrant .......I think all of us have residual hangovers from our upbringings , as the world is changing so fast with technology and the questioning of our past/present and future has never been this intense......we have the choice to make our lives better , but only through acknowledging Australia's past , learning the lessons of the past ......without a foundation of truth .....we have a fragmented dismal future!

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goofyfoot Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:15am

“ .you have not grown up being an Australian , but an immigrant ....”. Wtf !?
He was born here Brutus. Just like you.

Enjoyed listening to your podcast on Dirty Water yesterday, loved the story about you and WL out at that huge Victorian left hander. Wild times

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overthefalls Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:48am

History is not set in stone; it is constantly revised as new historical sources (and interpretations of those sources) arise.

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brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:57am
goofyfoot wrote:

“ .you have not grown up being an Australian , but an immigrant ....”. Wtf !?
He was born here Brutus. Just like you.

Enjoyed listening to your podcast on Dirty Water yesterday, loved the story about you and WL out at that huge Victorian left hander. Wild times

I thought he mentioned that he came here in the 60's from Holland ......I was brought up in a family that was here since the last century.....story , My Grandfather fought in WW I in the trenches ...sticks his head up one day and there's a German coming at him......they both firs their rifles.....Pops gets shot in the arm , he wounds the German in the leg. there were only the 2 of them....because the German cant walk, Pops helps him back to the Allies camp where he becomes a prisoner of war......on the way back to camp they become friends and are in contact with each other for the rest of their lives......so I was brought up in a middle class 10th generation Australian/ Pommy family....that was my heritage of being Australian....then of course came the later teenage years where weird stuff was happening to me....which I found out was what we call today...racism, ostracised because I was the only dark kid in school....was a trying period, but the school of life brought me back.....
So my life /Australia experiences are different to an immigrants....there is absolutely no negative from me on immigrants ( the more the better !) , but they have different cultural historys to what I have had......

that's why I say ,"We, OURS , US.......when I talk about being Australian.....being inclusive of everybody !!

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goofyfoot Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 11:29am

If that's the case then my mistake, I was under the impression he was Australian born.

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udo Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 12:09pm

Oz born / Heritage
Dutch grandparents on one side

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brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 12:26pm

Udo ,Indo posted this so I think he arrived here in the 60's , am I reading this right? ,"In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?

My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)

udo wrote:

Oz born / Heritage
Dutch grandparents on one side

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udo Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 12:38pm

Obviously both my grandparents on one side were Dutch, just because i have Dutch heritage doesn't make me Dutch, even if i did eat a lot of Dutch food when i was young and learnt some Dutch, went to Dutch festivals etc I also had a Welsh grandmother and English grandfather, i don't get to pick one of those ethnicity's either, i probably have some DNA like many people from all around the world if i do i don't get to pick and choose the one i like either.

Like many I'm just a mixed race mongrel Aussie.

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goofyfoot Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 1:05pm

What if he was born in the 70's in Australia brutus?
He carries on like an old prick but I don't think he's that old, anyway, I'm sure the man himself will be along shortly to clarify

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 1:59pm

Brutus "then of course came the later teenage years where weird stuff was happening to me....which I found out was what we call today...racism, ostracised because I was the only dark kid in school..."

Most immigrants had exactly the same happen to them as you did because they were different . My mum's family did ( Dutch ) . All are now naturalised Australians and love the country .

I might be wrong but it sounds like you had a good childhood . You were then bullied at school ( same with me ) which you blame on racism caused by colonisation .

You are constantly talking about negatives of colonisation done by the English . No answer to my question on which other nationality would have been preferable .

You want to know more about the negative effects colonisation caused . How much worse can it get ?
As I have said every colonised people have had exactly the same happen to them . Do you really think you will find something new that will help ?

Colonisation is in the DNA of humans , animals and plants . It is GOOD . Look how Covid travelled . Look how the first people arrived here .

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 1:58pm

Just to clarify.

Born in 74 in Australia,

Fathers Dutch came out when he was 11, his parents were both Dutch.

Mother born in England but moved to Africa (Rodessia/Zimbabwe) as a todler until shit went down, then lived in Fiji until her 20s then Aus.

Actually me and Udo have the same mongrel mix her father was English her mother Welsh

In Africa mum always got in trouble as a naughty tom boy who played with the African kids when wasn't suppose too and then her best friends in Fiji were fijian and indian, Mum always gravitted towards people of colour and other cultures as do i.

Im Aussie the Dutch aspect is close to irrelevant to me other than liking some Dutch snacks i cant speak any Dutch, same as UK aspect, but i guess im now cultrally a little bit Indonesian, we speak mixed language at home, every second meal indonesian, married in traditional wedding in Indo, we have to do all types of traditional thing for different events like wife's pregnancy or kids births etc.

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udo Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:02pm

Just to clarify - Indo they are your words i posted ...he he .

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:19pm

Ha ha okay, it did sound familiar, dont remember any of those Dutch words now though, but some words in Indo are of Dutch origin.

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brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:52pm
udo wrote:

Obviously both my grandparents on one side were Dutch, just because i have Dutch heritage doesn't make me Dutch, even if i did eat a lot of Dutch food when i was young and learnt some Dutch, went to Dutch festivals etc I also had a Welsh grandmother and English grandfather, i don't get to pick one of those ethnicity's either, i probably have some DNA like many people from all around the world if i do i don't get to pick and choose the one i like either.

Like many I'm just a mixed race mongrel Aussie.

Udo , my point is with immigrants , that they arrive here with their culture intact and have not lived in Australia , so it takes time to assimilate into an Australian , sometimes takes a few generations........this is not a criticism , it's an observation.....that's why it's healthy to discuss ....

What does the Australian National Identity look like , why and what do we see as the future for the next generations~

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 3:07pm

I dont agree most people assimilate very quickly to Australian society, only ones that have real issues are those that don't speak the language or have cultural or religious practises that don't fit in well with the majority of the population, these people normal live in a type of comunity bubble anyway.

This national identity thing is completely different for everyone it depends on the perspective of the person even influenced by their own lifestyle or where they live, city, regional etc

For example the average person in North Qld would view things very different to the average person in Melbourne.

What people see for the future is also very different, that's why we dont all vote the same.

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Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 3:44pm

Brutus - my mother's family took less than a sixth of a generation to assimilate . They all quickly ( even my mother's mother and father ) learned the language . My mother still has an accent . They weren't religious but they could have been Lutheran or Jewish and it would not have mattered . They all got jobs .

I do understand the effects on indigenous populations . It would make no difference if the number of massacres they experienced went from 500 to 600 . It would also make difference if the number they committed went from 50 to a 100 .

I am not an expert on Australian history or what Batman did . I know he was an early settler and that a few places have his name . If he is proved to be a bastard I have no problem changing the names . Otherwise it makes little difference to me .

Your childhood was similar to mine . Wonderful early then tough as a teenager at Mullum because I was different . It wasn't racist . I hold no grudges for being bullied because I was different . All teenagers around the world can do the same and be cruel . I still love the place .

The Red Indians are also special . Wonderful languages , traditions and beliefs . Polynesians , Africans and English the same . Same with our first nations . The Egyptians probably think their civilisation is older than our first nations .

Our first people are NOT more special than anyone else imo . We are ALL just as special as everyone else .

One person one vote .

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bluediamond Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:48pm

Well FWIW, i went to school in the rough hood of Dandenong Sth. 85% of the kids had a surname that ended with 'ski', being 85% were Albanian. Tough kids too that lot!!! The rest were vietnamese, Russian and maybe 2% stock standard aussies. Yes, there were confrontations, there was bullying and fights, always called skippy in a derogatory manner. But i don't get on here and cry about it every 5 minutes like Hutchy does. Huttch you fail to make the distinction between the historical racism suffered by indigenous Australians, and you, an outsider with no historical trauma associated to your mob and their place in society AND their very own homeland.
On another point, a few years back i found myself in Mildura, walking the streets at 2am to catch a bus. A group of indigenous young bucks were wandering in the same street. I could tell they were pissed so hung back til they passed. Kept walking after that but hadnt seen the one that was lagging behind. He must have stopped for a piss. Next minute he came up to me and punched me hard in the mouth. I had a big backpack so it took a second to drop it, and then fairly return the favour, told him to f off, and he did. It rattled me a bit, but it made me think alot. There was definitely anger. At the bus stop the whole mob had rallied and come looking for me. 30 or so. Luckily there was a bus there, not the one i had to catch but it got me the fark outta there. So there's two examples of reasons i could not give a fuck about the wellbeing of Indigenous Australians. But the thing is. I've had way worse altercations with white fellas, i've seen crew i know roam the streets looking for someone pissed just to beat up (when i was a grom). You cant judge someones actions based on their colour, but......it got me thinking. I thought alot after that about who these people were that i knew little about. I got to spend more time around them through travelling and soon realised, they're as Aussie as you and me, in the iconic cultural sense. We do share culture now. But most importantly, i began to want to know the real story, the one my parents never told me, the one that school brushed over and the one that folks like Indo and Hutch seem to want to be in so much denial about. So thats where i am today. Still learning. So so much to learn.
My biggest issue with all this, and the one i refuse to ignore, is that there are past injustices that we have ignored to help us live the priviledged life we lead in this country. Ignoring them, not confronting them, not finding solutions to repair the very obvious damage that still lingers. Well, in my opinion thats completely unacceptable. And i feel a high level of guilt and responsibility based on that. I think many do.
The conversation has to move forward, and if you listen, all indigenous voices are asking for the same things!!!!!!! You gotta listen though and understand that just because your beliefs mean alot to you, without the full picture (listening), they may actually be false.
Anyway, i know this won't get through to you, but there's alot to be gained from just attempting to learn, (hutchy you always are saying you know little, yet you comment the loudest!!?)

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blindboy Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:51pm

Great stuff bd

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bluediamond Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 6:07pm

Cheers BB.

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brutus Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 8:46am

yeah BD , great personal stories and credit to you for looking answers to the issues you suffered....and realized that there was something a lot deeper and troubling called racism!
I could tell personal stories for days of bullying and abuse as a young fella in Warrnambool by blacks and whites.......but it was out of ignorance ......
I realize now that with Indo and Hutchy they have very different upbringings in a different timeline especially Indo....as I have said very different life experiences , where I had so many questions about why Australia was so racist , where did it come from, how could you stop it , what were the down sides what were the upsides if any??
Questions that are slowly being answered and the change in Australian attitudes has been enormous.......as the narrative of history has been challenged and changed so has the future of Australia , and for the better.......

Ok todays little snippet....Kwentin De Kock captain of South Africa T20 Cricket team refused to obey the South African Cricket board in taking a knee before the T20 game with the West Indies for BLM.......so he pulled out of the game and looks like the whole tournament , and now possibly ended his career......interesting he comes from Dutch/Afrikaans father...no mother and was brought up in rich Transvaal family.....https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/de-kock-skips-t20-world-cup-game...

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brutus Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 5:35pm

So Quentin de Kock wouldn't bend the knee for BLM , has withdrawn from the team and looks like one of the best cricketers in the world , made a decision that ends his career......now that's standing up for what you believe , but why won't he talk about it?

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/de-kock-exposes-bitter-rift-that...

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maddogmorley Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 5:40pm

Could be more than meets the eye brutus - have to wait n see.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/cricket/quinton-de-kock-t20-world-cup-withdrawa...

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 5:50pm

Brutus -", but why won't he talk about it?"

Maybe because he is not yet mandated by you to do so ?

He has every right to wait until he wants to . Maybe he is waiting for all the smug people to calm down ?

Why ask a moot question ? Just because he is a White South African you think the worst . Is that racist ?

You might even ask all white South African's why they locked up Mandela for so long for amusement .

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gragagan Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 5:53pm

I was watching the game and the commentators didn't know, but one of them said he heard that he had injured his knee. This was early in the game, so no one knew then. It was after the game that the real reason came out. I'm pretty sure Quentin has been out injured a bit lately. Maybe he isn't fully over a knee injury and the action of kneeling causes pain? And that's what the commentator overheard? I dunno. Probably the only excuse that could save him. But it isn't a good look

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 7:56pm

I am not really up with this bending the knee business .

It was , I believe , in support for BLM . I support the view to support this cause ..

In the US it caused a feeling that kneeling during the national anthem was a sign of disrespect to the country . I can understand that . I don't think it was successful causing attendances to football games to plummet .

It stopped ( or in not news now ) .

If Quentin de Kock refused to kneel in support for BLM during the playing of his countries national anthem he has my full support . The South African anthem changed after apartheid ended .

The cause of BLM can be supported without disrespecting one's country imo .

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 8:09pm

Weird situation, nobody should be shamed or forced into bending a knee or anything similar no matter what the issue is for, making it compulsory is wrong and takes away from any meaning anyway, it should be a personal choice, in the same way for example an indigenous AFL player or any other AFL players should be free not to sing the national anthem if they choose.

BTW. Just because he doesn't want to bend a knee doesn't at all mean he is racist either, seems it's more about the principle of choice.

He might also be opposed to other associated BLM ideology's the whole marxism thing, deconstruction of the family unit, and the whole anti capitalist anti establishment thing, or just the general divisiveness of the movement, either for political, social or religious reasons..

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Vic Local Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 10:17pm

Wow ID, you really have a talent for taking a pretty simple concept and then interpreting it in a bizarre way.
Yes Taking a knee was about police brutality in the USA when Colin Kaepernick started doing it in 2016.
Sports people and teams from outside the USA have been taking a knee to show fans that racism is not acceptable in sport. Not from the fans, not from the players. It really isn't that difficult to understand, but you start chucking in Marxism and BLM for a South African athlete. You've even suggested de Kok is worried about the "deconstruction of the family unit". FFS that is just ridiculous.
When players take a knee they stand in solidarity with their team mates and for equality. When de Kok refuses to take a knee he is sending a clear message he doesn't care about these ideals.
Go read Michael Holdings Why we kneel How we rise. You might actually learn why players from across the globe are taking knees. Hint. It's got fuck all to do with marxism and family units.

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:21am

Viclocal - Indo said MIGHT . Like Brutus inferred it might be racist . FFS Talk about "all guns blazing ".
Please take a chill pill before you log onto SN .

The fans in the US stopped going to games . They MIGHT have thought bending the knee during their countries anthem disrespectful .

I wouldn't bend my knee or raise my fist in support of BLM during our anthem . I bet it doesn't catch on during our AFL games . If it is tried I bet it goes down like a lead balloon .

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Vic Local Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:45am

The South African cricket team taking a knee has nothing to do with BLM, or disrespecting anthems or veterans (another Trump piece of BS).
Professional athletes (with a few exceptions) have been taking a knee simply to show fans that racism is not acceptable in sport. It's not a complex message. They don't do it as part of some marxist plot or a desire to rip apart family units as ID seems to be suggesting.
You'd think that not tolerating racism in sport is something everyone could agree on, but it's a bridge too far for you and ID.

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GuySmiley Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 7:57am
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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 8:07am

@Vic Local

Read my post again: i say "He MIGHT also be opposed " notice the word might?

Im not saying thats the reasons, im saying it could be, as the action is now linked to BLM as Brutus above has mentioned and BLM is linked to many marxist aspects, their leaders openly admit being trained marxist and website even said they were for the deconstruction of the traditional family unit, which is completely ironic seeing fartherless is often a real problem in communities around the world that have issues, also anti capitalism anti establishment.

By not taking a knee DOES NOT at all mean he is standing against the ideal of being against racism, he has said himself he is against being forced to partake, which is completely understandable, and the irony is being forced to partake instead of being a choice completely takes any meaning away from the gesture.

But i dont expect people like you to understand, you're a complete nutcase, the type of person that claims to be against racism but actually incites division between race's, you cant even have a mature discussion about immigration or China without calling everyone racist.

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 8:09am

Vic - you love to jump too far . I don't tolerate racism .

If anyone tries to make any political statement during their national anthem it is wrong imo and obviously in the opinion of US football fans .

Imagine one of our cricketers doing it on Boxing Day at the G . The crowd would let them know VERY quickly how they feel . How do you think this would go down Vic ?

Smiley- I was referring to 68 Olympics when I said raise a fist. I should have made it more clear to save you some time .

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Vic Local Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 8:16am

I don't tolerate racism.
but you can't accept a very simple pre-game anti-racism gesture by the players. Geez mate, are you going to be ok, or do we need to set up some support mechanism for you the next time players do it?
Oh and ID, maybe Quniton de Kok doesn't support taking a knee because he might be upset apart the price of seafood. Have you worked out how stupid your family unit / marxism suggestion is yet?

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 8:22am

Its up to him to give reasons for not taking a knee, im just pointing out there is a whole host of reasons.

IMHO you are the most racist person here, very divisive.

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 8:34am

Vic - I don't think it helps their causes but the US fans didn't like it . The fans at the G will be VERY unhappy if it happens on Boxing Day .

You might think disrespecting your country just a simple pregame gesture but many don't as proved .

It was the owners of the US clubs that needed the support mechanism .

As I said at the start I am not emotionally involved in this issue .

I only commented as I thought it unfair that Brutus thought the action of De kock was racist as he was a White person . Which I also said might be racist .

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brutus Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 9:20am
indo-dreaming wrote:

Its up to him to give reasons for not taking a knee, im just pointing out there is a whole host of reasons.

IMHO you are the most racist person here, very divisive.

Indo , yeah there could be a whole host of reasons why De Kock refused to take a knee...on one hand he show's balls in putting his career on the line in not following team orders ......but on the other hand he should come out and explain himself and his position.
If he chooses not to make a public statement explaining his actions.....well all the rumour /innuendo speculation , supposition which has now distracted all of us from a game of T20 cricket....he surely knew that his actions would be World headlines.....so c'mon Quinton manup and clear the air.
As for your silly BLM comments , lets just leave it at that...silly , and calling VL the biggest racist on SN.....that's your perspective, from mine I think you are which make very interesting conversations...like the White Australia policy claim.....ah that was 50 years ago......sad , and it looks like you are still an Australian trying to assimilate into our ever evolving Australian National identity......might take you and your family a few more generations , but there is no stopping the path we are now on!

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garyg1412 Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 9:40am

Just going back 12 months was there ever a reason given for the Wallabies deciding not to take the knee in their Bledisloe Cup match against New Zealand?? I know they wore a First Nations jumper to respect and reflect Australia's history but decided against taking the knee.

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Optimist Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 9:40am

I’d take a knee for a genuine anti racist cause because personally I don’t even understand racism. It’s the most stupid mentality on earth. I would not take a knee for the BLM movement because it’s a Marxist trouble making movement and designed to deliberately divide and destabilise. Look at the riots in the US…they were raiding black guys stores for goodness sake. If the tree has rotten roots it’ll never be good. The founders have embezzled a lot of the cash as well. There are better ways and if the US was so racist why did they elect a black president?..I don’t know…all seems like a diversion and nonsense to me.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 10:00am

Good post Optimist 100% agree

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 10:04am

No matter the cause or issue an expression or gesture such as this should be a choice and not forced onto someone or even made to feel bad or guilty if they don't participate.

Like i said that goes for singing a national anthem, or bowing a head in prayer or bending a knee for soldiers or racism or whatever, it should all be a choice and not forced on the player.

This is the problem when you bring politics and social issues into sports, on field it should be free of these things, off field players should be able to express themselves as they wish be it being a crazy Antifa member (that doesn't break the law), or super religious Christian or muslim that may not share beliefs most of us agree with, or whatever as long as it's legal. (kind of ties in with that Ruby league player, forgot his name)

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bluediamond Thursday, 28 Oct 2021 at 11:26am

Bizarre call on VL Indo. From everything I've ever read of his he abhors racism and calls it out at every opportunity.Which I admire. Bizarre call.