The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

bluediamond Sunday, 5 Sep 2021 at 8:31pm

This post is for Hutchy19. Just moving the conversation from the other place you keep posting on to here.
Mate, i give up trying to reason with you.
As a few have already on here, i'm sayanoring you from future convos.
A debate is a back and forth constructively structured conversation.
I tried that with you, you continue to become abusive and belittling.
Don't bother anymore. You need help mate. Whatever is going on in your life, i hope you find peace. I'm staying off swellnet for a while, -partly because i've lost faith in the commentary, particularly where your's is involved. It's just one big mess at the moment with all your posts. . Bitter, angry and unprovoked attacks.
You seem to have little grasp of anything about indigenous Australia. It's not for me to teach you, i'm learning myself. Go out and....EDUCATE YOURSELF!!

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 8:11am

Do whatever you want BD .

Unfortunately you haven't answered important questions I have asked .

Most recently , have 85% of other people , not just whites , exhibited a racial action in their whole lives ? I will answer it . Yes . Most children for a start do .

What realistic things can all Australians do to reduce resentment in the Aboriginal communities ? Resentment is the MAJOR cause of substance addiction .

What would you think if I replaced Whitefella thinking with Blackfella thinking ?

indo-dreaming Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 8:45am

Some of the most racist things ive heard from someone about Indigenous people in the last 15 years was actually from a guy i worked with on a job site about ten years ago, rough as guts been in jail for continually drink driving, got good money but still had no money etc (saw him a few months ago and still hadn't changed, midday with a woodstock in hand)

On site he told a racist Aboriginal joke one day and i didnt know what to say as even on job sites you just dont hear that stuff anymore, anyway my wife at the time worked with his mother housekeeping and i had also gone to primary school with his brother, so i knew about the family. (all rough as guts)

So i said to him isn't your mother part Aboriginal meaning you also have Aboriginal blood, and OMG he went on the biggest racist rant and said if i ever said that again he would drop me, which im sure he would have, so i never did mention it again :D

One of my best mates has aboriginal ancestry too (his mother seems to care about it, but he doesn't) and did a big trip around Oz, i remember some of the things he was saying on his return about his encounters up north were also kind of borderline racist.

My wife Indonesian friend also moved somewhere up there as her partner moved for work, a lot of things she said about her experiences with Aboriginal people up there was quite racist, my wife attitudes towards Aboriginal is also quite racist (although she was friends with an Aboriginal lady she worked with a few years ago)

So yeah it's not just whites who can be racist towards Aboriginal people, whatever white means these days seeing Australia is pretty much made up of countless ethnic groups and shades of skin colours.

brutus Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 8:57am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Some of the most racist things ive heard from someone about Indigenous people in the last 15 years was actually from a guy i worked with on a job site about ten years ago, rough as guts been in jail for continually drink driving, got good money but still had no money etc (saw him a few months ago and still hadn't changed, midday with a woodstock in hand)

On site he told a racist Aboriginal joke one day and i didnt know what to say as even on job sites you just dont hear that stuff anymore, anyway my wife at the time worked with his mother housekeeping and i had also gone to primary school with his brother, so i knew about the family. (all rough as guts)

So i said to him isn't your mother part Aboriginal meaning you also have Aboriginal blood, and OMG he went on the biggest racist rant and said if i ever said that again he would drop me, which im sure he would have, so i never did mention it again :D

One of my best mates has aboriginal ancestry too (his mother seems to care about it, but he doesn't) and did a big trip around Oz, i remember some of the things he was saying on his return about his encounters up north were also kind of borderline racist.

My wife Indonesian friend also moved somewhere up there as her partner moved for work, a lot of things she said about her experiences with Aboriginal people up there was quite racist, my wife attitudes towards Aboriginal is also quite racist (although she was friends with an Aboriginal lady she worked with a few years ago)

So yeah it's not just whites who can be racist towards Aboriginal people, whatever white means these days seeing Australia is pretty much made up of countless ethnic groups and shades of skin colours.

Indo , yeah racism comes from everywhere...amazing how Asians were targeted in Australia , because of the "Chinese Flu"....I think it was 3 in 5 Asians were targeted by angry people blaming them for Covid!
new Doco/film coming out, Incarceration Nation......which shows that since the missionaries stopped in the early 70's ....incarceration rates on first Nations Peoples in Australia are a National shame !!
https://www.theage.com.au/culture/tv-and-radio/don-t-just-look-to-the-us...

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 10:11am

Brutus - I see you are abusing me in another thread so unfortunately I am forced to again respond to your comments .

Incarceration rates of Aboriginals are 13 times higher as said in the doco that you are referencing . If say 30% of the cases ( a very high number ) are unjust and caused by race the figure drops to 8-9 times .

Why is it still so high and is this not also a National Shame ?

brutus Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 12:14pm

Hutchy 19 wrote:
Brutus - I see you are abusing me in another thread so unfortunately I am forced to again respond to your comments

FFS Hutchy , no one cares what you say , and going on all of your comments , refusal to listen and take advice from others......it feels like you just want to yell at everybody here , and your point will be made!
I am not going to answer your questions as they are not well researched or thought out....and I don't want to feed your narcissism and or whatever you are taking .
Incarceration rates of Aboriginals are 13 times higher as said in the doco that you are referencing . If say 30% of the cases ( a very high number ) are unjust and caused by race the figure drops to 8-9 times .
Why is it still so high and is this not also a National Shame ?

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 1:40pm

Brutus - I don't expect you to answer the important hard questions as you never have . I asked repeatedly to offer suggestions on how Australians can help the aboriginal people with their resentment which , as I have said , is the main cause of addiction . And nothing . Like so many on this site you talk the talk but don't walk the walk .

I can not work out why you would ask me to honour an agreement ( which when asked multiple times couldn't prove ) and respect your wishes to not respond to your posts ( which I then agreed ) and then abuse me ?

I really can't work out what sort of person would do that !

So you don't believe the Federal and State magistrates ( my experts ) have been right on 15 different rulings regarding the stolen generation and genocide . You don't believe that Aboriginal incarceration 8-9 times higher is a National Shame ? You always blame others for your problems and refuse to take any responsibly . That is a shame !

brutus Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 1:50pm

Hutchy 19 wrote:

Brutus -Hutchy....I , I ,me , me ,my my ...narcissist on high , bye bye!!

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 2:01pm

Exactly the answer to important questions you are famous for . Say gday to BD while you are away avoiding responsibility and accountability .

stunet Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 2:05pm

"help the aboriginal people with their resentment which , as I have said , is the main cause of addiction"

Hutchy the addiction specialist sets the frames of reference.

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 3:01pm

Not trying to Stu . Unfortunately I do know a bit about this subject . How about you trying to contribute something positive about this serious subject .

While you are at it how about contributing on the climate change discussion that is happening now .

Or are you one of the people who is not willing to sacrifice anything or offer suggestions on how we can avoid the problem of man made climate change . What will you tell your kids and grand kids what you were prepared to do ?

Are you like so many others on your site who talk the talk but don't walk the walk ? Maybe time for you to lead ?

stunet Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 3:14pm

Fuck off, mate.

megzee Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 3:28pm

+1 Stu...
Nicely said.......
I would have left the "mate" bit out though...

megzee Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 3:28pm

+1 Stu...
Nicely said.......
I would have left the "mate" bit out though...

brutus Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 3:31pm

Hutchy 19 wrote:

FFS Hutchy you are disrespecting yourself and others here on SN.....so much of what you want to discuss has been discussed for years.....you show no respect and get none...but it just seems it's all about you and your Google opinions , then the no listening and continued "arc " ups at long term Swillnetters...........you show narcissistic tendencies and the scattered thoughts....that's why seriously a Meth head Narcissist.....seems to be your M O!
Not trying to Stu . Unfortunately I do know a bit about this subject . How about you trying to contribute something positive about this serious subject .
While you are at it how about contributing on the climate change discussion that is happening now .
Or are you one of the people who is not willing to sacrifice anything or offer suggestions on how we can avoid the problem of man made climate change . What will you tell your kids and grand kids what you were prepared to do ?
Are you like so many others on your site who talk the talk but don't walk the walk ? Maybe time for you to lead ?[/q

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 4:01pm

Thanks Brutus . If it has been talked about for years here on Swellnet the answers to my questions should be easy for you and others to post . Why have you not done so ? It would save me having to ask you multiple times ?

If you give me a hint on where I can find them I am happy to do the work .

Lets start with one . How to lessen Aboriginal resentments ? Give me the thread and maybe the month ( or even the year ) it was discussed .

I promise I will not have any meth tonight and will do the work !

brutus Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 4:07pm

Hutchy 19 wrote:

Thanks Brutus . If it has been talked about for years here on Swellnet the answers to my questions should be easy for you and others to post . Why have you not done so ? It would save me having to ask you multiple times ?
therein lies the problem Hutchy, why waste time with you ? you can ask a 1000 times , but why would anyone who comes on here disrespects everybody except D-Rex , LOL....then you want to chat.....your behaviour has put us all off, and no amount of telling you seems to work.....so maybe keep chatting to yourself?

Hutchy 19 Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 4:18pm

I will admit you are good at avoiding the hard ( and easy ) questions Brutus . Maybe you can ask one of your minions to do the work ?

I don't want to chat and if you gave me an answer ( once ) it would negate the additional comments that put you off .

You a true professional at it .

Hiccups Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 4:34pm

Didn't you say that you have a friend that posts here Hutchy? Poor prick must cringe every time he sees you've shat out another post.

indo-dreaming Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 10:11pm

brutus wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Some of the most racist things ive heard from someone about Indigenous people in the last 15 years was actually from a guy i worked with on a job site about ten years ago, rough as guts been in jail for continually drink driving, got good money but still had no money etc (saw him a few months ago and still hadn't changed, midday with a woodstock in hand)

On site he told a racist Aboriginal joke one day and i didnt know what to say as even on job sites you just dont hear that stuff anymore, anyway my wife at the time worked with his mother housekeeping and i had also gone to primary school with his brother, so i knew about the family. (all rough as guts)

So i said to him isn't your mother part Aboriginal meaning you also have Aboriginal blood, and OMG he went on the biggest racist rant and said if i ever said that again he would drop me, which im sure he would have, so i never did mention it again :D

One of my best mates has aboriginal ancestry too (his mother seems to care about it, but he doesn't) and did a big trip around Oz, i remember some of the things he was saying on his return about his encounters up north were also kind of borderline racist.

My wife Indonesian friend also moved somewhere up there as her partner moved for work, a lot of things she said about her experiences with Aboriginal people up there was quite racist, my wife attitudes towards Aboriginal is also quite racist (although she was friends with an Aboriginal lady she worked with a few years ago)

So yeah it's not just whites who can be racist towards Aboriginal people, whatever white means these days seeing Australia is pretty much made up of countless ethnic groups and shades of skin colours.

Indo , yeah racism comes from everywhere...amazing how Asians were targeted in Australia , because of the "Chinese Flu"....I think it was 3 in 5 Asians were targeted by angry people blaming them for Covid!
new Doco/film coming out, Incarceration Nation......which shows that since the missionaries stopped in the early 70's ....incarceration rates on first Nations Peoples in Australia are a National shame !!
https://www.theage.com.au/culture/tv-and-radio/don-t-just-look-to-the-us...

That Asian thing eded up being exposed as media hogwash, maybe there was some isolated incident's but it was rare, i remember my wife and Indonesian friends talking about it a little bit fearful because of the media but none ever had any incidents, it no different to the other month when conflict between Israel & Palestine flared up and some Jewish people became targets, you always get a few dick heads in the community.

Incarnation rates of indigenous people are high because sadly they are highly represented in crimes, in most cases it's among their own communities and people, 70% of indigenous people are in prison for violence related crimes.

Regarding "David Dungay" im sure you have watched the video, my first thought was fuck why did they care so much if he had some biscuits?...

What that article doesn't mention and what most media never mentioned is he was diabetic, they were trying to remove the biscuits for his own safety, if you watch the full video from start to finish not just the selective short 2:00 min one, you will see the whole incident and you can clearly see he is basically being a complete shit, it's irrelevant if he is black, white, brown or blue.

He was asked to put his hands through the door so he could be cuffed but he refused a number of times, so guards have to barge in, you can then see he tries to go the guards as they enter.

Guards are yelling stop resisting, but he doesnt listen.

They then finally cuff him and try to get the injection he needs for his diabetes, the whole time he doesn't corporate.

You think guards want to do that shit?

Imagine the crap they put up with everyday, and yeah every guy like him would e saying things like i cant breath when they can, the aim to have pressure released so he can fight back, it would suck so much having to do that crap as a guard or cop.

Im sure they would much rather give him the injection needed peacefully, whole incident had zero to do with him being aboriginal, an inquest found no wrong doing.

But im sure the documentary will be a complete beat up, that really does nobody any good.

Full video in this article.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5960825/Footage-released-diabet...

seaslug Monday, 6 Sep 2021 at 10:16pm

"Friend", that's a bloody long shot Hiccups

brutus Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 9:20am

Indo..first I watched the video , pretty sad ...but reading about your empathy for the guards , was not a good look....your reasoning for why are the Indigenous First Nations Peoples so over represented in our penal system.....yeah they committed crimes......but why?
As far as your "hogwash" claim on Asian Racism in Australia.....I came across so much information and proof that in the city's....here try....https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-02/asian-australians-suffer-covid-19...
I still see Australia as a very racist country , but getting better.....not just based on my personal experiences , but a National over view.....incarceration rates , etc tell a story .....so what are we going to do about it.....??
First and foremost that there is a problem , and there needs to be a solution...

"That Asian thing eded up being exposed as media hogwash, maybe there was some isolated incident's but it was rare, i remember my wife and Indonesian friends talking about it a little bit fearful because of the media but none ever had any incidents, it no different to the other month when conflict between Israel & Palestine flared up and some Jewish people became targets, you always get a few dick heads in the community.

Regarding "David Dungay" im sure you have watched the video, my first thought was fuck why did they care so much if he had some biscuits?...

He was asked to put his hands through the door so he could be cuffed but he refused a number of times, so guards have to barge in, you can then see he tries to go the guards as they enter.

Guards are yelling stop resisting, but he doesnt listen.

They then finally cuff him and try to get the injection he needs for his diabetes, the whole time he doesn't corporate.

You think guards want to do that shit?

Im sure they would much rather give him the injection needed peacefully, whole incident had zero to do with him being aboriginal, an inquest found no wrong doing.

But im sure the documentary will be a complete beat up, that really does nobody any good.

Full video in this article.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5960825/Footage-released-diabet...

overthefalls Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 10:22am

Hi Brutus,
I've been reading this thread for a while and it has raised many questions which don't have any clear answers. The over-representation of Aboriginal men in Australian prisons is indeed alarming and your question of why these Aboriginal men have committed crimes warrants further discussion. My daughter's boyfriend works in a juvenile correction centre here on the north coast and he has confirmed that the overwhelming majority of the boys are Aboriginal, many of whom are repeat offenders who will soon enter the adult prison system. One of my colleagues is a proud Gumbaynggir man who does a lot work in his local Aboriginal community; when I asked him what the solution is to this problem, he just shrugged and shook his head. When I prompted him to discuss the issue, his perspective is that nothing has worked effectively so far, not even self-determination. What do you think is the solution? How can we prevent Aboriginal men from entering the criminal justice system. Obviously, it's not as simple as saying that they should just stop committing crimes. I think surfing is a great outlet for any troubled young man, but in my region there are many Aboriginal people and lots of waves, but very few Aboriginal people who surf. How can we get local Aboriginal youth to get into surfing?

Robwilliams Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 11:52am

Just for the record. I have been told to stop resisting while fully complying. Had my head smashed into a wall and cut open while fully cuffed and roughed up by four highly excited members of the force. The cuffs where so tight I couldn't feel my fingers for 2 weeks and cut through my wrists. I also was threatened with tasering while handcuffed to which would have clearly been assault. Hand cuffing leaves you in a very vulnerable and manageable position. You don't need to be a wizard to see that. I was also accused of false charges. Until laws are changed and the force investigates or ignores misconduct nothing will change. Deaths in custody are preventable. Not all coppers abuse their power either. But if they do they should be accountable.

Robwilliams Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 12:23pm

We are in an age were recording of complete apprehension process is able from beginning to End. It shouldn't leave any doubt eg visual and audio. All of The surveillance should be complete without leaving any room for misconduct or behaviour outside reasonable means. Body cams are able to be manipulated in current form. I'm not against them but they must tell the full story. They admit green light when opperational and red on stand by

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 12:36pm

brutus wrote:
Indo..first I watched the video , pretty sad ...but reading about your empathy for the guards , was not a good look....your reasoning for why are the Indigenous First Nations Peoples so over represented in our penal system.....yeah they committed crimes......but why?

Yeah 100% i feel for the guards because they put up with these types of situations everyday and they are in a damned if they do damned if they don't situation, if they had left him to be and he dies because he didn't get his shot, they would also be blamed and it would be another indigenous death in custody that the media would run with as some systemic racist clap trap..

The good thing is it was all filmed so we knew what happened from start to finish, this hopefully is now standard protocol, and also to have a number of people dealing with the situation, so it cant be he killed him type thing or one persons view against another.

Ive already given my thoughts on why crime rates are so high and also how to reduce them.

brutus Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 1:25pm

[

Ive already given my thoughts on why crime rates are so high and also how to reduce them.

OK Indo we are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to racial vilification and understanding of criminal elements with first Nations issues.........my personal experience's with authority , Police/Prison guards/Pedophiles/politicians....has colored my views on the PPPP......so lets leave it at that......I am currently dealing with Police harassment/malicious Charges etc....this will become a lot clearer in the next mths as the news get's out, not pretty when you are told to move out of your community .....and why......well it really shows how corrupt our police force/courts are ....

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 2:19pm

Indo -" Ive already given my thoughts on why crime rates are so high and also how to reduce them."

Can you point out where I can find them ?

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 3:35pm

Hutchy 19 wrote:
Indo -" Ive already given my thoughts on why crime rates are so high and also how to reduce them."

Can you point out where I can find them ?

Having a quick look, i cant see an exact post it was more a combination of post on the first few pages, i dont want to go into all the negative stuff again though.

But we do know, when children are brought up in a stable household with good role models ideally including a father and mother and at least one parent is employed they are much less likely to enter a life of crime.

Aboriginal people are no different to you and me, when they have good role models and access to education and employment they can achieve just as much as anyone else and are very unlikely to end up in prison.

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 7 Sep 2021 at 4:01pm

You are right Indo . Unfortunately I know a bit about how resentment is considered a major influence on alcohol and drug addiction . I believe substance abuse is closely related to incarceration rates .

I would guess that resentment levels in the Aboriginal communities , due to past injustices , are 8-9 times higher than in other communities . This is the reason why I have asked many times for realistic suggestions on how their resentments can be reduced . More money and saying sorry have not helped .

bluediamond Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 3:28am

Hi Hutchy. Just touching base on this subject and hoping to answer your question without any of my ego attached. I feel like your question about 'how do we stop resentment' is too narrow a question, and misses alot of the key points that have been raised above and in other arguments. I do understand the angle your question is coming from, and i respect that. Personally, and as always, this is just my opinion, i think just categorising one aspect of a culture and a history that is so rich, and also so steeped in such a cataclysmic change (the invasion of the late 1700s) is too simple a question to ask. And i mean that with all due respect. Not having a go at you. I think the question you pose actually highlights alot of the problem in working through the current day dilemmas with clarity. And i think it's a good question with the intention you're asking it with.
I appreciate you asking it, and from alot of the stuff i've read that you've posted, you have a fair level of awareness on alot of goings on in the world. I do apologise for letting my own ego get in the way of a debate. I honestly only know so much, and when a question gets put to me out of my comfort zone, i can resort to ego sometimes. I'm still right at the beginning of my learnings, and if there's anything i can learn out of this, it's to be humble and try to educate myself a whole lot more. Cheers.

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 8:25am

Thanks BD . Really appreciated your post !

I am sure that you are right that the question on how we can reduce resentment is too narrow for the aboriginal issue . It is a question I would ask anyone who is having difficulties .

You make me think that there are a combination of questions/issues that need to be asked and addressed in unison . I am not sure what they are but would hope they all lead to the same outcome .

Australia NEEDS to be a place where EVERYONE can achieve their potential .

I am also at the beginning of my learnings and I will try and be much more humble in the future .

Cheers to you !

bluediamond Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 9:28am

Good on you Hutch. Also appreciate your post so thanks.
I was thinking about the questions you mentioned, and i guess one question, that i can't answer but could be asked is what is the resentment. What does it actually look like. Again, its a pretty wholistic approach so that answer will vary alot i think depending on circumstances. Probably getting to the bottom of that would help answer some of that question above.
Anyway....too tired to think too straight (damn you WSL). Have a good day. Yew!

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 9:51am

Bluediamond

"I was thinking about the questions you mentioned, and i guess one question, that i can't answer but could be asked is what is the resentment. What does it actually look like."

A wonderful start . A resentment can cause anger/rage , fear , lack of self worth , reduce ones ego , sadness , hopelessness , and other similar emotions .

I am not the best person to ask about what exactly are the main causes of Aboriginal resentment but maybe the feeling of racial discrimination is up there .

Very happy to work on this in the future !!!!

Robwilliams Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 11:04am

Where any ongoing abuse has been experienced . Often phycological and physical scars remain long after the initial act. Sometimes for a life time. A major factor is loss of trust. Without trust you can't have a thourough healing process. Sometimes the abuse stays with the abuser as much as the abused. Like an old country song. Maybe it's time we got back to the basics of love.

bluediamond Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 11:24am

Thats well written Rob. That last line is powerful.
Same goes hutchy. Cheers

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 12:04pm

Not referring to Aboriginals at all with this next comment .

Resentments are also related to perceived abuse . Eg My boss sacked me unfairly ( people are quick to blame the boss without admitting that they were doing a bad job ) . When dwelled on minute by minute , day by day and year by year resentments magnify and become consuming often leading to alcohol , drug abuse and suicide to escape the pain.

People blame everyone else and cannot see the part they play in the process . They don't appreciate how they can change things by thinking differently and moving on the future without the baggage .

Trust is a major issue .

brutus Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 12:54pm

Robwilliams wrote:
Where any ongoing abuse has been experienced . Often phycological and physical scars remain long after the initial act. Sometimes for a life time. A major factor is loss of trust. Without trust you can't have a thourough healing process. Sometimes the abuse stays with the abuser as much as the abused. Like an old country song. Maybe it's time we got back to the basics of love.

RW , been reading all the posts, had a break , as there is so much anger and negativity in the World right now, needed to take a deep breath and turn all the negatives into positives....and come up with a new life plan for the next 6 mths....all good now!!!

I think when it comes to Australia's Indigenous issues....you are spot on with , "trust" being part of the foundation of reconciliation.......
So trust.....our First Nations people don't trust the colonial system that delivered the colonial version of what they should be and become. Until we as a Nation recognize that till now, all the money and resources has failed to deliver a better life or future for them and their communities......

When you use the word trust ..it comes with another word called "respect"....so trust and respect is often the backbone of moral integrity......

when I read Indo's post where he says,"Aboriginal people are no different to you and me, when they have good role models and access to education and employment they can achieve just as much as anyone else and are very unlikely to end up in prison."...........this is part of the problem forcing western values down the throat of Indigenous people , and these same people have this misguided idea that how western society has a superior culture/civilization based on material goods and services......it's not resentment , but a lack of trust and respect!

bluediamond Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 4:48pm

Great post Brutus.
I think there's alot of value in highlighting the trust aspect of what you mentioned above.
Good to see ya back and glad to hear all's good with new plan.

udo Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 4:51pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-13/closing-the-gap-mining-royalties/...

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 5:24pm

brutus wrote:
when I read Indo's post where he says,"Aboriginal people are no different to you and me, when they have good role models and access to education and employment they can achieve just as much as anyone else and are very unlikely to end up in prison."...........this is part of the problem forcing western values down the throat of Indigenous people , and these same people have this misguided idea that how western society has a superior culture/civilization based on material goods and services......it's not resentment , but a lack of trust and respect!

"this is part of the problem forcing western values down the throat of Indigenous people"

The laws that some Aboriginal people break that see them in prison aren't just western values, they are laws based on human values.

"and these same people have this misguided idea that how western society has a superior culture/civilization based on material goods and services"

Again this isn't a western concept, it's how the majority of the world live, the so called West developed a lot of things but so did the Middle east and Asia, America's etc

Not to mention i dont see a whole heap of Aboriginal people rejecting all these so called western things, be it housing, cars, electricity, AFL, food, alcohol, cigarettes, clothing, money etc

What would be the percentage of Aboriginal people that say im going back to living a more traditional lifestyle living in a bark hut, hunting with traditional implements, only wearing traditional clothing.???

So you think the solution is to defund all aboriginal services and funding and take away all things that the so call west has provided public housing, electricity, phone towers, medical services, schooling etc and say here you go you are on your own, welcome back to the stone age.

As for the trust BS, it's remote indigenous communities with the biggest issues that have the least western influence and have the most autonomy over their own communities, they dont need to trust anyone they can basically do as they wish.

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 6:14pm

I think trust is an issue Indo . Like in the US were Blacks don't trust the medical system and so are only vaxed at 10% .

It is only one issue and it does cause resentment . You can loose trust in someone and not resent them as they might not affect you.

If you loose trust in a system and it causes you anger , despair or makes you feel disrespected it naturally causes terrible resentment . The longer the resentment lasts the worse it gets and causes all types of abuse .

bluediamond Tuesday, 14 Sep 2021 at 7:03pm

Yep. Well put Hutchy19.
Indo i was just thinking about your post and the phrase "trust B.S'.
It made me think of the 1967 referendum that formally acknowledged Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders as citizens of Australia
Not sure how old u are but guessing roughly my age..mid 40s That would put your parents (mine) in their 60s and 70s. All your unckes, aunties, grandparents...
Looking at it from the perspective of our own upbringing, do you think if your parents and relatives were only recognised as citizens in their lifetime, of this country (as viewed by the commonwealth) that there might be trust issues to this day. And the referendum is just one part of the whole.
I think its important to look at it from outside our own perspective or at least put ourselves into the shoes of others.
Always value your contributions because they actually make me think. Cheers indo.

brutus Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 8:23am

indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:
when I read Indo's post where he says,"Aboriginal people are no different to you and me, when they have good role models and access to education and employment they can achieve just as much as anyone else and are very unlikely to end up in prison."...........this is part of the problem forcing western values down the throat of Indigenous people , and these same people have this misguided idea that how western society has a superior culture/civilization based on material goods and services......it's not resentment , but a lack of trust and respect!

"this is part of the problem forcing western values down the throat of Indigenous people"

The laws that some Aboriginal people break that see them in prison aren't just western values, they are laws based on human values.

"and these same people have this misguided idea that how western society has a superior culture/civilization based on material goods and services"

Again this isn't a western concept, it's how the majority of the world live, the so called West developed a lot of things but so did the Middle east and Asia, America's etc

Not to mention i dont see a whole heap of Aboriginal people rejecting all these so called western things, be it housing, cars, electricity, AFL, food, alcohol, cigarettes, clothing, money etc

What would be the percentage of Aboriginal people that say im going back to living a more traditional lifestyle living in a bark hut, hunting with traditional implements, only wearing traditional clothing.???

So you think the solution is to defund all aboriginal services and funding and take away all things that the so call west has provided public housing, electricity, phone towers, medical services, schooling etc and say here you go you are on your own, welcome back to the stone age.

As for the trust BS, it's remote indigenous communities with the biggest issues that have the least western influence and have the most autonomy over their own communities, they dont need to trust anyone they can basically do as they wish.

Yep Indo...your last sentence that trust is bullshit shows me how narrow a view you have of the world and it's issues........you don't have a clue.......just because western values are the global rich majority you think in terms of being superior .
Trust and respect go hand in hand.....even in whiteman's world...that's why the Western World is in such a mess at the moment. One could even say our current civilization ha peaked and is now in a downward spiral.....we have quite nicely raped the planet for profit , increased debt levels never seen before , changed our climate ..because capitalism is our system.
Never before has Trust been is such high demand....and our politicians and current system are in a death spiral......easy to see when you look at the history of indigenous peoples the world over who were displaced/genocide/inhuman treatment and culture taken from them to be replaced by a greedy, self absorbed system you call "the West".....
No sense continuing Indo , I have completely different life experiences than you which has given me a different view of our system.......which is very broken...corrupt police/corrupt court system/Jail system which is worse.....then we have lying politicians who Kow Tow to lobby groups.....I live with all the baggage and am actually still able to help other people who are not as lucky as you...

Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 9:17am

I would encourage us to put most of our energy on the path forward so we can change the effects of the past and the present .

Trust and resentment go hand in hand as I have repeatedly said . How do we reduce the terrible resentment felt by many aboriginals ?

The elephant in the room !

bluediamond Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 9:36am

Hutch i reckon i tickled that elephants balls yesterday with my posts. Would be good to move forward from what we both agreed was a simplistic question. The question i put forward to you is 'what is resentment'. 'Where does it exist'. 'Why does it exist'. Without answering these i don't think there's much to work with.

Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 9:50am

BD - How do we move forward WITHOUT answering that question ? How can we change the terrible social problems without answering that question ?

If you and I cannot engage on the elephant in the room I will give up commenting on this issue .

You will have confirmed to me a tragic realisation that there is NO hope for our Aboriginal fellow Australians .

I have written what resentment is . It exists everywhere but much more intensely in the Aboriginal community .

It has been caused by many issues including having a lack of trust , a feeling of hopelessness , lack of respect and so many other things that I would hope you could show me .

It is a simple question NOT simplistic !!!!!!

You have not given me ONE realistic suggestion on how the problems can be fixed !

Don't let others stop us from going forward !

bluediamond Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 9:50am

Hey Hutchy, I"m running on high octane 3 bottles of red wine right now, but still think i can think coherently enough to respond to you.
I have put forward a simple question to you....what is resentment in indigenous Australia and why does it exist.
If this is not a logical first step to a debate, i'm not sure what is.
I enjoy your commentary mate, and i'm not having a go. I just want to have a fair debate. And it's gotta start at the foundation. Otherwise.....it's just opinions.I hope i spelt that right. With my vision at the moment it looks like oniions.

Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 9:52am

If you are affected by alcohol please never respond to me .

bluediamond Wednesday, 15 Sep 2021 at 9:57am

haha. It's been a big night Hutchy! Watched the WSL finals last night. No worries. Will respect that. Enjoy your day dude!

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