# Bitcoin #

udo's picture
udo started the topic in Wednesday, 15 Nov 2017 at 3:49pm

The Bitcoin graph looks Interesting ! ?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 10:19am

It's like anything it's all about supply and demand the more people that want something of limited supply the more the price increases.

It took about two years for the Cryptocurrency market cap to reach 200 billion in early November this year, in another month it doubled to 400 billion, in the last two weeks it's added another 200 billion to be a total of 600 billion plus.

About 50% of which is in Bitcoin but that percentage is getting smaller as more people get into alternative cryptocurrencies.

We will hit the trillion dollar mark most likely in late January or February and unless something big happens that will change the whole game then prices will continue to increase at crazy rates.

Coinsbase in the USA is like our Coin spot in Australia a site that acts as a broker that is very easy to use unlike an exchange that can be daunting for the everyday person.

Coinbase app is now the most download app for iPhones.

IMHO and i could be completely wrong, but i think this is just the start as apart from Bitcoin i don't think most people even know about other cryptocurrencies and although one trillion sounds big on a world wide scale it's not.

donweather's picture
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donweather commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 11:26am

I have no doubt there will be a price correction in 2018. It's NOT sustainable at these current levels. But I also believe crypto's are here to stay and will become a serious player in payment transactions in 2019 and beyond. Just look at Power Ledger for example. It actually has a real world purpose. Banks are all over Ripple. Two others yet to hit the market but I believe will do very well in 2018..........

Cashaa
SingularityNET

udo's picture
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udo commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 11:34am

Aust now has 23 BitCoin ATMs up and running.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 11:38am

Personally I reckon that Bitcoin is going to fall on its arse in a very big way and the craze for cryptocurrency investing will come to a grinding halt amongst the average punters. As soon as the first crypto crumbles and the confidence in their idea as a One way street to riches is shattered it's going to be a road to recovery.

Look at the dot.com boom. Very similar. Everyone knew that IT was the future but the overzealousness of the market to back every horse in the race irrespective of any genuine possibilities of return commensurate with expense set 90 Percent of the market to take a long hard look in the mirror. Lots of people lost lots of money.

The concept of a global currency and most likely a crypto currency will no doubt be the future but in the short term it's going to be 10 steps forward and 9 steps back.

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 1:15pm

about 1000 addresses own 40% of all bitcoins. thats addresses, so its very likely to be fewer actual people. these people dont "owe" bitcoin anything. my guess is most of them bought in at near zero cost when it took about 1 minute to mine a coin with a home pc.

what is stopping them selling up and causing a crash?

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Cacadajy commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 1:37pm

Blowin, absolutely agree.
International crypto currency will one day be a real alternative in everyday transactions.
But from what I can see the value of bitcoin etc is being driven by investment. In reality though, very few people are actually using it as a currency (buying things) apart from the dark net end selling and buying illegal "goods".
Until crypto currencies become widely used in the buying and selling of stuff I reckon they are going to be highly volitile in their value.
Until these currencies make it onto "The Big Mac Index" I will sit on the sidelines.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 5:18pm

@HappyaS I've read the same about the 1000 that own 40% and thought about this before.

Ive actually thought maybe it's a good thing and could actually protect against a crash.

Because why would they all sell out at once?

A big crash would see them collect profits now but a really big crash could see people losing confidence in Bitcoin which would mean they would lose their income stream.

What they do instead and is much smarter and more profitable is they use what they have to control the market, they sell off a bit that creates a chain reaction of sell offs that lowers prices then they buy back in at a cheaper price and make profit.

They do this every now and again I'm sure they have earn't ten times as much already doing this than if they totally cashed in their Bitcoin and made it basically worthless and killed their income stream.

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 6:37pm

well done btw indo. you're making good money... and tax free too!

though i wouldn't quit your day job, you might still need it yet

id do it too, though my wife would probably kill me if I lose her spending money. :)

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udo commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 6:41pm

Tax free ..nope.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 7:14pm

Down 23% in the US according to SMH app.

Laurie McGinness

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 7:57pm

couldn't you just call bitcoin 'gambling' for ATO purposes? in which case the winnings are tax free.

udo's picture
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udo commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 8:12pm

North Korean sponsored Hackers are having a go at Bitcoin- ABC online

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 8:46pm

Would you buy shares in a company after the CEO sells their whole holding?

How about the logic of buying currency while they busily print more and make competing currencies to do the same thing? The euro wasnt born out of nothing.

I've said it already but this is madnesss.

Well played indo old boy but seriously at what point would you consider bitcoin overvalued and when do you take profit? Until then you're exposed.

Bitcoin is now too expensive to be useful as genuine currency the goose is cooked. It'll be monopoly money soon with fractions etc but the worst bit is it only exists on paper, unlike actual cash.

Cacadajy's picture
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Cacadajy commented Wednesday, 20 Dec 2017 at 11:46pm

It is a currency that at this moment very few people who own them are spending.
It is simply being driven by people investing in it with the aim of taking profit.
It is a currency ffs and no-one who owns it is spending it.
So what is bitcoin? At the moment it is a thing that doesn't produce or manufacture anything for a profit. It isn't a commodity that is widely used or desired and is not a tangible thing that can be held or touched.

Bitcoin and all other shitcoins that are popping up every day are apparently currencies. Until I see people actually using them to buy goods and services they will remain in the realm of pyramid and ponzi schemes.
Indo I wish you well with your investments but who pays for your profits in the end and who really benefits from any of this?

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 10:35am

When the broker advises that you should only invest money you can afford to lose......maybe the game is up.

http://www.cryptoprice.trade/index.php/en/bitcoin-price

Laurie McGinness

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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 11:39am

I saw on a crypto Facebook group yesterday one guy asking others what they think I've his idea of borrowing 30-50K to put on Cryptocurrency's and I've heard of others selling their house to buy bitcoin.

I mean Cryptocurrency is high reward, but still agree there is a lot of uncertainty, i think it's crazy to invest more than you are willing to lose, and think it's crazy to borrow good money or gamble your house on it.

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 3:12pm

@donweather when and where will they become available? I’m on coinspot. Like to give something a go from the beginning and I trust your savvy ness. I’ve got Ripple also :)

donweather's picture
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donweather commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 4:40pm

Most pre-ICO's and ICO's aren't on exchanges. You have to register directly with the token website. Cashaa ICO has closed. Token becoming available mid January, so will slowly hit exchanges after that....but coinspot doesn't take up new coins very quickly.

SingularityNet initial KYC/whitelist has closed and it's a little confusing to understand if they're going to do a second KYC/whitelist as the were way over subscribed on their initial one.

BTW - I take no responsibility for any information I post on here to be used by others!!! ;)

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GuySmiley commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 5:15pm

A question for people here claiming they have coins.

Have you actually handed over your hard earned readies or is this whole thread based on some theoretical "paper" investments? You know some sort of intellectual exercise?

Been wondering this for weeks given how seemingly relaxed you are about loosing the lot.

Mind you I have this perverse thought that real money is actually at stake and I'll enjoy a quiet chuckle when the inevitable collapse happens.

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 6:23pm

“Fortune favours the brave” GS

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 6:35pm

Jealousy doesn't make anyone's life better.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 7:01pm

@Shoredump

Once coins go on an exchange they seem to get listed here pretty quickly https://coinmarketcap.com

And then you can see what exchange they are on click on "Markets"

Ive signed up to Binance and Crytopia, its very easy takes 5 minutes to set up and get confirmed, then just transfer Litecoin or Ethereum (Bitcoin too slow)

I haven't ventured into ICO's yet.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 7:07pm

@ GS

Yes you transfer money to the site you are buying from then buy the cryptocurrencies and then once you have made money you just transfer it back into fiat to your bank account.

Many people cash out and take profit, say buy $500 of one coin it triples in price to $1,500 then they transfer $500 back to their account and just use house money, taking away any risk of losing initial investment.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Thursday, 21 Dec 2017 at 9:39pm

What's the brokerage/spreads like?

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 5:57am

Yes, I am fully aware how electronic funds transfers work but my question was are you (and others) using real money or is this just a paper exercise?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 7:39am

Im not sure what you mean exactly by "Paper exercise"? and google didn't give me much.

But yes you buy online with real money but obviously not physical cash (first you transfer fiat to your account, then you use money from you account in a very easy click and buy style process)

But you can also use Cryptocurrency to buy Cryptocurrency or transfer cryptocurrency from elsewhere to say Coinspot.

But if you want to buy from an exchange overseas i don't think you can use fiat you need to use a cryptocurrency generally, Bitcoin, Ethereum or Lite Coin.

Coinspot fee's are quite expensive at 3% as they are a site that is aimed at the novice or everyday joe, it's an Australian site and it's extremely easy to use, they are more a broker than an exchange. (there fee's to buy between cryptocurrency is 1%)

Proper Exchanges overseas have much lower fees like 0.1% trading fees, once you know how they are also very easy to use, but i think some everyday people might be put off, by the process which is a little more than click on a buy button than put in an amount and confirm like say coinspot.

That said I'm a pretty simple kind of guy and after watching a 5 minute youtube video on how to do it, found it very easy to buy on a proper exchange.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 7:47am

Guy is asking if you're actually buying the coins or just talking about it.

Not sure what leads him to question this but I believe that's what he's asking.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 8:44am

Oh Okay, I've already said many times I've purchased cryptocurrency.

I started with $120 to test the waters on the 22 November almost doubled my money in less than a week, so i then added more money, i would have just added all the money i had budgeted in one hit and been up much more, but I'm on the leash from my missus who is more skeptical so have had to trickle in money every week...but i think she has come around as now has her own account so she can buy a new car :D

Over the last few weeks Ive invested $4,720.00 and my total balance now 22 December a month latter is about $11,300.00

I have about 20+ different cryptos, i probably would have made more if id stuck to maybe five, but i keep on watching videos that give me reason to buy others, also when i did only have about five different Cryptos, i found my account balance fluctuated a lot big gains one day, but big drops at other times.

But now I've found much less fluctuation more just a steady climb and even when i see a drops they are more slight even when everyone else seems to be thinking the sky is falling down because there is a dip.

BTW. Anyone who is interested and wants to have a go here is my affiliate link :D

https://www.coinspot.com.au?affiliate=5XTTP

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 12:15pm

Thanks, my question is based on how relaxed you and others are about losing the lot in the face of overwhelming advice saying its lunacy. I can well imagine people playing with this on paper as a means to educate themselves without risking real money like an investment or gambling club but there you go.

Just another in a long line basically saying the same thing

http://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/so-you-ve-made-a-virtual-motza...

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 12:43pm

@GS I honestly would be more stressed at not giving life a go. My 30 odd snapped boards are testament to this. Every now and then, I make one that I had no right to. I love the way I live life and where it has taken me. Not worried in the slightest

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 1:23pm

It all comes down to your personally acceptable level of risk.

Admittedly it does become a bit detached and abstract when you're looking at a numeric gain on a computer screen but when you find yourself boarding a plane bound for an exotic foreign land and handing over a boarding pass bought with those gains it starts to gain a dimension.

Undisputedly though, the losses are always very real .

They fucking hurt.

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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 1:29pm

@Guy Theres also many that disagree, personally i have no idea who is right.

If i was all in with tens of thousands id be a little nervous and if i still loose what I've put in and gained it's still going to hurt, but most of the money I've put in was basically free money i suddenly lucked upon (thats another story)

I kind of look at it, in the way, it could be a once in a lifetime opportunity and the start of something big and I've just got to know i jumped in and had a go.

I guess it's just like surfing, some non surfers think we are crazy going out there, we can drown or get attacked by a shark, and then as a surfer we all have our own risk and reward levels.

Personally my risk and reward level is overhead hollow reefs, but i look at the guys surfing those crazy slabs like Shippies or Ours etc and there is no way id go near those waves no matter how good the barrels. (rewards)

Anyway in 6 to 12 months time it's going to be super interesting to come back to this thread, you will either be bringing it back up saying I told you so, or i will be brining it up bragging about how much money I've made.

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stunet commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 1:34pm

Personally I can't ever see myself playing the sharemarket or getting into cryptocurrency. I think it comes down to a lack of curiosity about it and a simple aversion to gambling. Not in a preachy puritanical way, I was just never exposed to gambling and the excitement that others feel is mostly lost on me.

Also, every time I've gambled I've fucked it up somehow. Like the time I left $200 - what was going to be my nightly spend - in the ATM at Star Casino, or when I bet on a horse at Randwick and cheered the fucker all the way to a first place finish only for the bookie to tell me I'd actually placed a bet on the next race - and of course that horse lost.

Like Kenny Rogers says, you gotta know when to walk away.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 2:12pm

I don't gamble.

I lost $100 on a single bet with a fella I knew from work once and it left me gutted beyond all proportion.*

Having said that , to try and deny that investing isn't gambling is folly. Unless you're a biiiig fish.

BTW Is leaving your cash in the casino ATM what they meant by the house always wins ? Even the ready teller is a toll of the dice .

* Jimmy you bastard. I still reckon the wahoo is the fastest fish in the ocean. You can stick your sailfish in your arse. I miss my $100.

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batfink commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 2:21pm

Yeah Stu, you're on the right track not being interested, although you probably have your superannuation heavily spotted on shares. That's enough.

There's a moral dimension as well, both the gambling, which I have no qualms with, but also the idea of earning a buck doing nothing. Easy money, some make it, but 9 out of 10 get bitten by it. I don't like the slippery slope argument wherever it is applied, but looking for easy money is a problem that's best nipped in the bud.

A little flutter here and there, a bit of throw around money for fun - harmless. Looking for easy money, even if you get it, is the Siren's song.

If you do wish to play, make sure you have wax for your crews' ears, and sturdy rope to tie you to the mast.

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GuySmiley commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 3:24pm

Risk.

I know people that love it, some have gone totally broke a couple of times only to rebound. In one notable case he hit it big time buying and consolidating like businesses and then a US client made a ridiculous offer for the lot. Another guy I know got brought out by a supermarket chain and has lived on his yacht sailing the world now for about 6 years.

Of course risk is relative to your timeline horizon. If you are in it for the long-term you can afford to be way more aggressive because you have the ability to ride out the lows.

Its interesting what people said about gambling above because that's exactly what it is for most who "dabble" directly in stocks. There are fundamentals that govern what stocks ought to be purchased but that takes serious study and time to get that right. Of course we are all exposed to the market via our super but fortunately we do have the ability to moderate/increase our risk exposure via member investment choice options.

IT will be interesting to revisit this topic in 6-12 months time. The question I have is if it all goes belly up what flow on, if any, will it have to the real economy? I haven't a clue but could it be a trigger to send the already overheated global stock markets into a spin .... we live in interesting times!

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happyasS commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 3:26pm

it all comes to down to risk/reward and how much that cash means to you, ie. can you afford to lose it. branson can afford to lose several million on bitcoin, I cant even afford to lose 2 grand so I dont bother playing the game.

the moral dimension?...... how about every bitcoin transaction (purchase, sell, etc.) requires the miners computers to juice through a fortnights worth of your households electricity. bitcoin is far from environmentally friendly, but something people are willing to overlook when the lure of making dollars presents itself.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 4:10pm

Hmmm.

Bitcoin is allegedly a currency.

If a Bitcoin is currently worth $US 20K , then how much energy / resources are used to create the physical representation of that currency ( cash) add in logistics of storage , transportation and periodic replacement.

Then multiply it by accounting - Physical and electronic. Construction and maintainence of banks , teller machines , cash registers , fuel to drive to ATMs , cash register's employees uniforms or any of the other trillion goods and services and the virtually limitless paraphernalia associated with our cash society and you'll find crypto currency and block chain reduced to insignificance in relative impact on the Earth.

Just dont get me started on that other alternative .....gold.

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happyasS commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 5:43pm

im not talking about blockchain generally blowin, more so bitcoin. but you have raised the question ... is bitcoin actually a currency? no-one is spending it. at this point it is useless for anything other than speculation, allowing the chinese to transport funds around the worth without the govt knowing, and a little illegal trade. so I dont think that talking 'relatives' is a good enough argument to discount environmental impact of bitcoin as a product by itself, and particularly if the whole thing falls in a heap. 2 weeks worth of electricity just to move electrons from one persons bitcoin bank account to anothers (for want of a better analogy) is quite massive and is charged accordingly in fees by the miners. dont get me wrong, if bitcoin had actual use then i'd probably see it differently. and in the scheme of everthing, cars, heating, surfing trips then bitcoin is nothing, but its still a moral issue nonetheless.

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Blowin commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 6:02pm

Hey , I'm a fan of cash.

It's relatively stable and anonymous. Sure the logistics can be a pain but it certainly beats a cashless future utilising banks as the hub of the wheel .

The sooner we get rid of our imposed dependence on their virulent ways the better.

Bring on P2P lending.

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happyasS commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 6:28pm

yer fair enough...just dont lose your cash wallet like old mate from melbourne did with his bitcoin hard-drive. that really was a chuckle. 160 million was it? i never touch the big banks anymore...too expensive, and well, in the scheme of things, pointless.

udo's picture
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udo commented Friday, 22 Dec 2017 at 6:33pm

Woa....big drop to $16600 AUD.

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thermalben commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 6:55am

From US news site CNBC this morning:

- Coinbase says at 11:11 a.m. ET that "all buys and sells have been temporarily disabled”, amid a price rout in cryptocurrencies.
- The interruption in service comes as bitcoin briefly tumbled below US$11,000, down 44 percent from its record high hit Sunday.
- On Thursday, Coinbase had temporarily disabled buys and sells at 5:57 p.m. ET, according to its status website. The issue was resolved within 15 minutes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/22/coinbase-one-of-the-biggest-bitcoin-mark...

Imagine if the Aust dollar (or any regular stock) fell 44% in such a short period of time? This certainly highlights just how risky it is.

ID, have you cashed out any of your investment yet or is it all still on paper?

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thermalben commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 10:24am

"South Korean cryptocurrency exchange Youbit said on Tuesday it is shutting down and is filing for bankruptcy after it was hacked for the second time this year."

"Coinbase, a US company that runs one of the biggest exchanges and provides digital "wallets" for storing bitcoins, said on Wednesday it would investigate accusations of insider trading, following a sharp increase in the price of a bitcoin spin-off hours before it announced support for it."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-23/bitcoin-plunges-in-value-after-man...

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Gaz1799 commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 10:43am

Now for the next part - do the cowboys buy back in at the bottom of the curve or have the big dogs left the building leaving only the micro traders to hold the baby? Is this the trend reversal?

What a scam. The dip would have hit all the pending buy orders then smashed through their stops and then its just wholesale carnage all the way to the bottom. You still in indo?

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thermalben commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 10:52am

What's more amazing is that this thread is only five weeks old.

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donweather commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 12:57pm

Ahhhh, I love it. There's a correction (BTW, there's more to come) and all the naysayers are on it saying "I told you so". Take a look at the BTC chart over the last month. It's still sitting at a 200% gain. I'm happy with that. And I've never really seen the attraction with bitcoin....which is why I've diversified my coins across 6-8 of them at any one time. And the next BTC fork is expected just around the corner. Bitcoin God. Love the name.

As I've said above, I'm now predominantly playing free spins, with the house money. I only have $1.6k left of my own original investment left in the kitty. My wallet (yes on paper as I haven't sold it yet) is now round $9k. I'm more than happy to leave my stake/skin of $1.6k in there now and let it ride.

This correction is only a minor one. There's bigger one's to come in 2018, no doubt about it. Have a look at the bitcoin chart over each year and you'll see there's typically a correction of 30-50% around each quarter. Now if you're smart, you'll capitilise on these movements.

It does concern me that major crypto websites like coinbase have these major outages when prices start to fall rapidly............Which is why one should always spread their portfolio across different websites/exchanges and also use external wallets if you're holding a sizeable portfolio.

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Blowin commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 1:25pm

Don - This is not a judgement question , merely an honest query : Do you think that any of the current forms of Cryptos stand any chance of ever acting in the manner that they were allegedly created ie as a utilised currency ?

Does this enter into your thinking or are you just having a roll of the dice in a bull market ?

Does the proliferation of these " currencies " compromise the ability of any of them to be taken seriously as a legitimate currency ?

Asking cause you seem to have read into the field.

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blindboy commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 1:26pm

You have to love an optimist! I stand by my advice before the correction started. Sell now.

Laurie McGinness

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GuySmiley commented Saturday, 23 Dec 2017 at 2:49pm

News that the Trevi Fountain now refuses to accept Bitcoin!