1000 Christian churches closed down in Indonesia despite "religious harmony law".

groundswell's picture
groundswell started the topic in Sunday, 20 Dec 2015 at 5:27pm
groundswell's picture
groundswell's picture
groundswell commented Sunday, 20 Dec 2015 at 6:08pm
poo-man's picture
poo-man's picture
poo-man commented Sunday, 20 Dec 2015 at 8:29pm

Wow, that's heavy!

poo-man

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 20 Dec 2015 at 9:39pm

I notice that no reference or documentation is provided to justify that statistic, nor is there any time frame given. There are roughly 25-30 million Christians in Indonesia, most of who, practice their religion without problem. Yes there have been some clear and terrible examples of Christians being persecuted but exaggerating the problem serves no purpose except to demonise Islam. So I would be looking pretty closely at who funds the organisation responsible for that web site. I might get around to that later.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 20 Dec 2015 at 9:50pm

Oh and the link says "closed" not "burnt down". You're not doing your bit for religious harmony there groundswell. A bit irresponsible maybe.

groundswell's picture
groundswell's picture
groundswell commented Monday, 21 Dec 2015 at 6:41am

Yeah sorry about that i was drinking Jagermesters yesterday. I just edited the headline.
The facebook page was full of hysteria and looking back now doesnt seem legit. So i dont know what to think of this.
Id recommend though, anyone traveling to Simulue or Aceh these next few months be well behaved or maybe even give it a miss if this turns out to be as true as they claim on the facebook page.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Monday, 21 Dec 2015 at 7:40am

Such a minefield . There's no doubt that certain strands of Islam, particularly the conservative Wahhabi strain that has been very forcefully exported by the Saudis is extremely intolerant of both more moderate strands of Islam and other religious minorities. This is playing out all over the muslim world.
Here's an excellent BBC radio doco on Wahhabism: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03trqh1

Tension between liberal strains of Islam and more hard-line, intolerant extreme versions are a major issue in Indonesia but by and large, although Islamic groups are influential at both a societal and political level Indonesians have voted for a more secular, liberal democratic state.

saltman's picture
saltman's picture
saltman commented Monday, 21 Dec 2015 at 7:55am

Have a visit to simulue booked next month
will be interested to see what the atmosphere is like

dandandan's picture
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dandandan commented Monday, 21 Dec 2015 at 8:17am

I have friends working at camps up there. By all accounts, nothing has changed and they were a bit stunned that I even asked. As always, paying respect to local sensibilities should be your concern. The capacity of local actors to participate in transnational movements is pretty limited outside major centers/known hotspots like Poso and Aceh. By all accounts Simulue is blowing up in terms of exposure to surfers, so you're doing well to get in before the rush! Only a Christmas miracle will see me getting tubes this holiday season...

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Monday, 21 Dec 2015 at 8:38am

No idea on the situation but my Indonesian wife's family is Catholic I went to Church at Christmas one year and there was security guards at the entrance with from memory machine guns, i remember thinking fark.

Its always weird to see the attitudes etc between Muslims and Christians in Indonesia like most things in Indonesia its very contradicting on one hand people like my wife will have muslim best friends then on the other hand she hates islam and muslims, i see the same thing with my local Christian friends in Nias, Telo, Mentawai its strange.

RE- Simeulue those guys up there are blowing that place up especially that Aura joint, fully cutting off there own necks five years time it will be just as crowded as South Sumatra/Krui, i even seen someone is selling villa type set ups in front of that peak for private use for a ridiculous western price.

saltman's picture
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saltman commented Monday, 21 Dec 2015 at 12:48pm

Yeah I think the Aura guys selling off lots under the proviso you do not build a commercial enterprise
They certainly are prolific sending out images etc via every imaginable media available

Am choosing to stay at a locally run place -

Robin Masters's picture
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Robin Masters commented Wednesday, 30 Dec 2015 at 8:20pm

saltman wrote: Have a visit to simulue booked next month
will be interested to see what the atmosphere is like

I've been to Simeulue five or six times Saltman and I've always found the locals friendly and cool. You'll be fine. The normal commonsense rules apply though, no boozing in public and always wear a t shirt in public. I was in mainland Aceh in October when we got pulled over in the middle of the night by the cops for a quick "search" of our car. Once again there was no problem in fact the cops were very polite and just sent us on our way.
sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 30 Dec 2015 at 10:37pm

I'm pretty sure Indonesia gets similar sensationalist headlines everytime the bogans come out to protest a new mosque in australia, because they are always asking about such things. they are quite surprised when you tell them we actually already have quite a few mosques and muslims are generally accepted by most people.

the religious harmony amazes me in Indonesia. yes there are hot spots and flare ups but when you think about what has happened in bali it's almost unbelievable there are mosques around the island, not to mention downtown kuta.

I can imagine many people in simelue are being forcefed cultural change at an alarming rate the way the guys are pushing that place. well educated well to do aussies seem to struggle with such fast changes so its testament to the Indonesian character how they generally take it all in their stride.

one would hope the guys on simelue are reasonably sensitive to these issues and educate guests. I hate to pick on aussies but we are pretty arrogant with our ' she'll be right' attitude when it comes to drinking in public and getting around shirtless. and I must say chicks are often worse than guys when it comes to dressing appropriately. it made me most uncomfortable seeing western chicks surfing in bikinis in aceh, they must have got told eventually because all of a sudden shorts and t shirts were the go. personally I think bikinis etc. are totally disrespectful even in places like south sumatra, but good luck telling the self righteousness cows that can't put their narcissism on hold even for a few weeks on holiday

groundswell's picture
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groundswell commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 1:00am

Good post Sypkan.

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prothero commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 1:28am

I agree with you Sypkan I first started going to Indo 26 years ago , nice people, for sure. I guess its a numbers game with most of the Indonesians not agreeing with radical interpretations of Islam. But if 1% of 200 million Indonesians supported fundamental Islam values, thats a lot of radicals......some food for thought and numbers here : - (one should of course scrutinise the source to determine how much weight to put to the numbers ) :-

Muslim Opinion Polls

A "Tiny Minority of Extremists"?

"Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be
unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination."
Quran 9:73

Have you heard that Islam is a peaceful religion because most Muslims live peacefully and only a "tiny minority of extremists" practice violence? That's like saying that White supremacy must be perfectly fine since only a tiny minority of racists hurt anyone. Neither does it explain why religious violence is largely endemic to Islam, despite the tremendous persecution of religious minorities in Muslim countries.

In truth, even a tiny minority of "1%" of Muslims worldwide translates to 15 million believers - which is hardly an insignificant number. However, the "minority" of Muslims who approve of terrorists, their goals, or their means of achieving them is much greater than this. In fact, it isn't even a true minority in some cases, depending on how goals and targets are defined.

The following polls convey what Muslims say are their attitudes toward terrorism, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the 9/11 attacks, violence in defense of Islam, Sharia, honor killings, and matters concerning assimilation in Western society. The results are all the more astonishing because most of the polls were conducted by organizations with an obvious interest in "discovering" agreeable statistics that downplay any cause for concern

Terrorism

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Musl...

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date...
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20to...

People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war

YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-inf...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Ze...

Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-grow...

Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Pew Research (2013): 15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings (also 11% in Kosovo, 26% in Malaysia and 26% in Bangladesh).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

PCPO (2014): 89% of Palestinians support Hamas and other terrorists firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/poll-89-of-palestinians-support-jihad-...

Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-...

BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/

Palestinian Center for Political Research (2015): 74% of Palestinians support Hamas terror attacks.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/support-for-hamas-skyrockets-following-war-...

Pew Research (2014): 47% of Bangladeshi Muslims says suicide bombings and violence are justified to "defend Islam". 1 in 4 believed the same in Tanzania and Egypt. 1 in 5 Muslims in the 'moderate' countries of Turkey and Malaysia.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-...

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 19% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified in order to make Sharia the law in the United States (66% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

The Sun (2015: Following Nov. 2015 attacks in Paris, 1 in 4 young Muslims in Britain (and 1 in 5 overall) said they sympathize with those who fight for ISIS.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6758207/1-in-5-Britis...

See also: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Terrorism) for further statistics on Islamic terror.

al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and Islamic State (ISIS)

Pew Research (2007): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (27% can’t make up their minds). Only 58% reject al-Qaeda outright.
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Pew Research (2011): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (14% can’t make up their minds).
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-grow...

Pew Research (2011): 1 in 10 native-born Muslim-Americans have a favorable view of al-Qaeda.
http://people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-i...

al-Jazeera (2006): 49.9% of Muslims polled support Osama bin Laden
http://www.partisanlines.com/threads/al-jazeera-arabic-poll-49-9-support...

Pew Research: 59% of Indonesians support Osama bin Laden in 2003
41% of Indonesians support Osama bin Laden in 2007
56% of Jordanians support Osama bin Laden in 2003
http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/15/iran-terrorism-al-qaida-islam-opinions-...

Pew Global: 51% of Palestinians support Osama bin Laden
54% of Muslim Nigerians Support Osama bin Laden
http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/268.pdf

MacDonald Laurier Institute: 35% of Canadian Muslims would not repudiate al-Qaeda
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada
http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much-good-news-and-some-worrying-results-...

World Public Opinion: Muslim majorities agree with the al-Qaeda goal of Islamic law.
Muslim majorities agree with al-Qaeda goal of keeping Western values out of Islamic countries;
(Egypt: 88%; Indonesia 76%; Pakistan 60%; Morocco 64%)
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

ICM Poll: 13% of Muslim in Britain support al-Qaeda attacks on America.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

World Public Opinion: Attitude toward Osama bin Laden:
Egypt: 44% positive, 17% negative, and 25% mixed feelings
Indonesia: 14% positive, 26% negative, 21% mixed feelings (39% did not answer)
Pakistan: 25% positive, 15% negative, 26% mixed feelings (34% did not answer)
Morocco: 27% positive, 21% negative, 26% mixed feelings
Jordanians, Palestinians, Turks and Azerbaijanis. Jordanians combined for: 27% positive, 20 percent negative, and 27 percent mixed feelings. (Palestinians 56% positive, 20% negative, 22 percent mixed feelings).
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 49% of Nigerian Muslims have favorable view of al-Qaeda (34% unfavorable)
23% of Indonesians have favorable view of al-Qaeda (56% unfavorable)
34% of Jordanians have favorable view of al-Qaeda
25% of Indonesians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden (59% had confidence in 2003)
1 in 5 Egyptians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

Pew Research (2011): 22% of Indonesians have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (21% unfavorable)
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-grow...

Gallup: 51% of Pakistanis grieve Osama bin Laden (only 11% happy over death)
44% of Pakistanis viewed Osama bin Laden as a martyr (only 28% as an oulaw)
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/05/majority_of_our_pakistani_al...

Zogby International 2011: “Majorities in all six countries said they viewed the United States less favorably following the killing of the Al-Qaeda head [Osama bin Laden] in Pakistan”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/arab-worl...

Populus Survey: 18% of British Muslims would be proud or indifferent if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Policy Exchange (2006): 7% Muslims in Britain admire al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Informal poll of Saudis in August 2014 shows 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-t...

Hurriyet Daily News / Metropoll (2015): 20% of Turks support the slaughter of Charlie Hebdo staffers and cartoonists.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/metropoll-42-turkish-public-believe-muslims-are...

al-Jazeera Poll (2015): 81% of respondents support the Islamic State (ISIS).
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-a...

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 33% of Muslim-Americans say al-Qaeda beliefs are Islamic or correct. (49% disagree),
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 38% of Muslim-Americans say Islamic State (ISIS) beliefs are Islamic or correct. (43% disagree),
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

ICM (Mirror) Poll 2015: 1.5 Million British Muslims support the Islamic State, about half the total population.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/muslim-leader-isis-supporting-brits...

Clarion Project Study (2015): 11.5% of Arabs support ISIS, or about 42 million.
http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/isis-has-least-42-million-support...

Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (2015): Two-thirds of Palestinians support the stabbing of Israeli civilians.
http://www.france24.com/en/20151214-two-thirds-palestinians-support-knif...

9/11 Attacks

al-Arabiya: 36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/10/166274.html

Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially")
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/05/that-tiny-percentage-of-radical...
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=1154

Pew Research (2011): Large majorities of Muslims believe in 9/11 conspiracy
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2066/muslims-westerners-christians-jews-isla...

Violence in Defense of Islam

Jakarta Post (2006): 40% of Indonesians approve of violence in defense of Islam.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/07/40-of-indonesians-would-wage-war-for-i...

Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
13% of Indonesian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
12% of Jordanian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
7% of Muslim Israelis say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
http://cnsnews.com/node/53865 (Pew Global Attitudes Project September, 2009)

Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam (Wikileaks cable)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Mu...

Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date...
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain's Muslim population;
Another 29% would "aggressively defend" Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date...
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for religious or political ends acceptable.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Terrorism Research Institute Study: 51% of mosques in the U.S. have texts on site rated as severely advocating violence; 30% have texts rated as moderately advocating violence; and 19% have no violent texts at all.
http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/sharia-ad...

Pew Research (2013): 76% of South Asian Muslims and 56% of Egyptians advocate killing anyone who leaves the Islamic religion.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Pew Research (2013): 19% of Muslim Americans believe suicide bombings in defense of Islam are at least partially justified (global average is 28% in countries surveyed).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Pew Research (2013): 39% of Muslims in Malaysia say suicide bombings "justified" in defense of Islam (only 58% say 'never').
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/sideviews/article/extremism-in-the-na...

Die Presse (2013): 1 in 5 Muslims in Austria believe that anyone wanting to leave Islam should be killed.
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/survey-on-islam-in-aust...

Motivaction Survey (2014): 80% of young Dutch Muslims see nothing wrong with Holy War against non-believers. Most verbalized support for pro-Islamic State fighters.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/11/young-dutch-turks-radical-...

BBC (2015): Following the Charlie Hebdo attacks, 27% of British Muslims openly support violence against cartoonists. Another 8% would not say, meaning that only 2 of 3 surveyed would say that the killings were not justified.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31293196

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 24% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified against those who "offend Islam" (60% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 29% of Muslim-Americans agree that violence against those who insult Muhammad or the Quran is acceptable (61% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

Pew Research (2015): 40% of Palestinians, 39% in Afghanistan, 29% in Egypt and 26% of Muslims in Bangladesh agree that violence against civilians in defense of Islam is sometimes justified.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-fi...

Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America says suicide bombings and other violence against civilians in defense of Islam is sometimes or often justified. 81% say it is never justified.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-...

Sharia (Islamic Law)

83% of Pakistanis support stoning adulterers
78% of Pakistanis support killing apostates
http://www.realcourage.org/2009/08/pakistan-78-percent-call-for-apostate...

Center for Social Cohesion: 40% of British Muslim students want Sharia
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Mu...
ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Musl...

GfK NOP: 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date...
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

MacDonald Laurier Institute: 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory)
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01/strong-support-for-shariah-in-canada
http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much-good-news-and-some-worrying-results-...

World Public Opinion: 81% of Egyptians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
76% of Pakistanis want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
49% (plurality) of Indonesians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
76% of Moroccans want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

World Public Opinion: 64% of Egyptians said it was “very important for the government” to “apply traditional punishments for crimes such as stoning adulterers.”
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
58% of Jordanian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
36% of Indonesian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
82% of Pakistanis favor floggings and amputation
65% of Nigerian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers
56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hama...

Pew Research (2013): 72% of Indonesians want Sharia to be law of the land
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/seventy-two-percent-of-indonesians-f...

Pew Research (2013): 81% of South Asian Muslims and 57% of Egyptians suport amputating limbs for theft.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Pew Research (2013): According to an interpretation of this study, approximately 45% of Sharia supporters surveyed disagreed with the idea that Islamic law should apply only to Muslims.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Economist (Pew 2013): 74% who favor Islamic law in Egypt say it should apply to non-Muslims as well.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-20?fsrc...

WZB Berlin Social Science Center: 65% of Muslims in Europe say Sharia is more important than the law of the country they live in.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4092/europe-islamic-fundamentalism

FPO (2014): 43% of Islamic teachers in Austria openly advocate Sharia law over democracy.
http://rt.com/news/208387-austria-islam-kindergarten-muslim/

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 33% of Muslim-Americans say that Sharia should be supreme to the US Constitution (43% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 51% of Muslim-Americans say that Muslims should have the choice of being judged by Sharia courts rather than courts of the United States (39% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612...
2015 (Jyllands Posten): 77% of Muslims in Denmark believe the Quran's instructions should be 'fully appied'.
http://www.thelocal.dk/20151013/danish-muslims-more-devout-than-in-years...

2015 (Jyllands Postn): Only 53% of Danish Muslims believe Danish law should be based on the consitution and not the Quran.
http://www.thelocal.dk/20151019/forty-percent-danish-muslims-wants-quran...

Honor Killings

Turkish Ministry of Education: 1 in 4 Turks Support Honor Killings
http://www.realcourage.org/2009/03/turkey-war-on-women/
Civitas: 1 in 3 Muslims in the UK strongly agree that a wife should be forced to obey her husband's bidding
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

BBC Poll: 1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over "dishonor".
http://www.expressandstar.com/blogs/peter-rhodes/2011/12/28/honour-killi...

Middle East Quarterly: 91 percent of honor killings are committed by Muslims worldwide.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/43207

95% of honor killings in the West are perpetrated by Muslim fathers and brothers or their proxies.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/21/barbara-kay-continue-call...

A survey of Muslim women in Paris suburbs found that three-quarters of them wear their masks out of fear - including fear of violence.
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/12/muslim-women-win

1 in 5 young British Muslims agree that 'honor' violence is acceptable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117003/More-thirds-young-Britis...

Pew Research (2013): Large majorities of Muslims favor Sharia. Among those who do, stoning women for adultery is favored by 89% in Pakistanis, 85% in Afghanistan, 81% in Egypt, 67% in Jordan, ~50% in 'moderate' Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, 58% in Iraq, 44% in Tunisia, 29% in Turkey, and 26% in Russia.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Pew Research (2013): Honor killing the woman for sex outside of marriage is favored over honor killing the man in almost every Islamic country. Over half of Muslims surveyed believed that honor killings over sex were at least partially justified.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

(2013) Jordanian teens support honor killing.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/20/world/meast/jordan-honor-crimes-study/

Assimilation

Muslims have highest claimed disability rates in the UK (24% of men, 21% of women)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Mu...

Pakistani Muslims in the UK are four times more likely to be unemployed than Hindus. Indian Muslims are twice as likely to be unemployed as Indian Hindus.
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/f...

Policy Exchange: 1 in 4 Muslims in the UK have never heard of the Holocaust;
Only 34% of British Muslims believe the Holocaust ever happened.
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

Policy Exchange: 51% of British Muslims believe a woman cannot marry a non-Muslim
Only 51% believe a Muslim woman may marry without a guardian's consent
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

Policy Exchange: Up to 52% of British Muslims believe a Muslim man is entitled to up to four wives
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 62% of British Muslims do not believe in the protection of free speech;
Only 3% adopt a "consistently pro-freedom of speech line"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date...
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

ICM Poll: 58% of British Muslims believe insulting Islam should result in criminal prosecution
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Pew Global (2006): Only 7% of British Muslims think of themselves as British first (81% say 'Muslim' rather than 'Briton')
http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/254.pdf

Policy Exchange (2006): 31% Muslims in Britain identify more with Muslims in other countries than with non-Muslim Brits.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20to...

Die Welt (2012): 46% of Muslims in Germany hope there will eventually be more Muslims than Christians in Germany.
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuerkische-Migra...

Ipsos MORI: Muslims are 3 times as likely as Christians to believe that their religion is the only way.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/religion.still.matters.global.surv...

Pew Research (2011): Muslim-Americans four times more likely to say that women should not work outside the home.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/section-5-political-opinions-and-...

Pew Research (2007): 26% of Muslim-Americans want to be distinct (43% support assimilation)
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

Pew Research (2011): 20% of Muslim-Americans want to be distinct (56% support assimilation)
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-grow...

Pew Research (2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first" (26% American first)
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-grow...

Pew Research (2011): 21% of Muslim-Americans say there is a fair to great amount of support for Islamic extremism in their community.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/section-6-terrorism-concerns-abou...

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for political ends acceptable
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-brit...

Wenzel Strategies (2012): 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims.
32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land.
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2012/10/31/sixty-percent-of-us-muslims-...
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/10/poll-nearly-half-of-us-muslims-b...

Pew Research (2013): "At least half' of Muslims surveyed believed polygamy is morally acceptable.
"Muslims in most countries surveyed say that a wife should always obey her husband." (including 93% in Indonesia and 65% in Turkey).
Only 32% of Muslims in Indonesia say a woman should have the right to divorce her husband (22% in Egypt, 26% in Pakistan and 60% in Russia).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Musli...

Die Presse (2013): 1 in 3 Muslims in Austria say it is not possible to be a European and a Muslim. 22% oppose democracy
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/survey-on-islam-in-aust...

WZB Berlin Social Science Center: 45% of Muslims in Europe say Jews cannot be trusted.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4092/europe-islamic-fundamentalism

Vancouver Sun (2015): 42% of Canadian Muslims agree that Islam is "irreconcilable" with the West.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193969

Anti-Defamation League (2015): 55% of Muslims in Europe are anti-Semitic - approximately three times higher than Europeans in general.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/06/30/adl-poll-shows-more-than-half-of-we...

Middle East Forum (2015): Muslims comprise less than 1% of the population in the United States but 9% of prison inmates.
http://www.meforum.org/blog/2015/08/islam-prison

Middle East Forum (2015): Muslims in France comprise 12% of the population, but 70% of prisoners.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR200804...

Middle East Forum (2015): Muslims in Unit comprise 4% of the population but 11% of prisoners. Muslims in the Netherlands comprise 4% of the population but 20% of prisoners. Muslims in France comprise 10% of the population, but 70% of prisoners.
http://www.meforum.org/blog/2015/08/islam-prison

2015 (BBC): 14.4% of UK prisoners in 2011 are Muslim (Muslims comprise about 3% of the total population)
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31794599

Prothero

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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 8:15am

Prothero Please tell me you copy and pasted that from somewhere, otherwise you just took the tittle from Sheepdog on time spent on a post collecting links.

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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 8:28am

sypkan wrote: I'm pretty sure Indonesia gets similar sensationalist headlines everytime the bogans come out to protest a new mosque in australia, because they are always asking about such things. they are quite surprised when you tell them we actually already have quite a few mosques and muslims are generally accepted by most people.

the religious harmony amazes me in Indonesia. yes there are hot spots and flare ups but when you think about what has happened in bali it's almost unbelievable there are mosques around the island, not to mention downtown kuta.

I can imagine many people in simelue are being forcefed cultural change at an alarming rate the way the guys are pushing that place. well educated well to do aussies seem to struggle with such fast changes so its testament to the Indonesian character how they generally take it all in their stride.

one would hope the guys on simelue are reasonably sensitive to these issues and educate guests. I hate to pick on aussies but we are pretty arrogant with our ' she'll be right' attitude when it comes to drinking in public and getting around shirtless. and I must say chicks are often worse than guys when it comes to dressing appropriately. it made me most uncomfortable seeing western chicks surfing in bikinis in aceh, they must have got told eventually because all of a sudden shorts and t shirts were the go. personally I think bikinis etc. are totally disrespectful even in places like south sumatra, but good luck telling the self righteousness cows that can't put their narcissism on hold even for a few weeks on holiday

Im also surprised by the general tolerance, sure there is many exceptions but in a country of 250 million they do pretty good, there is even numerous places in Indonesia where you can see Churches and Mosque right next to each other.

About the guys going topless around the streets and women in swimsuits i think its just more a lack of awareness about culture and local dress standards etc, its also not just about Islam/religion i think its more a cultural thing as even in Christian area's its disrespectful and can offend.

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tonybarber commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 9:01am

Indo...given the change in Muslim activity, specifically, since 9/11, do you think the tolerance you mentioned is also changing ? Indo is real melting pot and an amazing place more than for its surf.

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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 11:10am

Don't know, it doesn't seem any different to me, to me Indonesia seems safer and more tolerant than ever but thats maybe just because since that era or before things have got more stable in Indonesia politically and personally my understanding of Indonesia has grown especially my Bahasa Indonesia and i guess when you understand something or interact with people more you fear it less, you know your first trip to Indonesia you go to Bali and people tell you oh those Javanese are bad or Lombok is dangerous and i guess looking back you do have some fear and then each trip you realise Javanese are not bad and are generally nice people and although Lombok can be dangerous in areas its generally safe.

Ive had so many weird experiences in Indonesia with very religious muslim men you know the ones that wear the white gowns and hats etc…they always seem to want to talk to me and hang and they are always super friendly and curious and never ever want to talk about religion.

Im actually pretty ignorant in a way to Islam in Indonesia i don't have the knowledge and interaction that others do with muslims other than a few friends or in public, because my wife's family are all Catholic Indonesians and my kind of adopted families or friends are mostly in Mentawai's and Telos and also mostly Christian, so the intolerance i see is mostly from Christians/Catholics towards Muslims but its just a behind their back your religion is crazy kind of thing, I don't really see the intolerance the other way but I'm sure they say the same things in private.

I guess the only intolerance I've noticed is just things like in my wifes home town (solo, where some of the bali bombers are from) every now and then the islam fanatics will get their way and close down a stall selling pork at the market or i think USA made movies were banned at the cinema for a while…so i guess there is much more happening that I'm just not exposed too.

I did work at a surf resort with my wife and was in charge of lots of staff half muslim half Christian, i never saw any intolerance towards each other based on religion they all got along pretty good and respected each others religious time or days, it was interesting though to see all the different levels of commitment to their religion though and often lots of contradiction kinda funny, you know like some guy won't eat chicken thats not halal or eat pork, but will go get on the piss and shag a hooker.

Interesting to hear what Dan dan thinks if he reads this, seem he would have lots more experience with this knowing the areas he hangs.

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tonybarber commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 2:26pm

Thanks, Indo … yes, certainly the political stability helps…appreciate your thoughts and experiences. Mine are way too far back (70s) and there was nothing like it is today.

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sypkan commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 4:37pm

think its more a cultural thing as even in Christian area's its disrespectful and can offend.

yeh your right indo d, I kinda thought that as I wrote it.

it's not just a Christian Islam thing either. most people don't notice but very few bali girls will wear bikinis.there's a few surf chicks getting around these days that seem to be sponsored (and corrupted) by roxy and the like, but your average bali hindu women nearly always dresses modestly.

interesting you point out the iman looking dudes in their white garb always want a chat. sometimes they can be a little confrontational initially, until they realise you can speak a little bahasa, then they are instantly on side and do love a good chat, very friendly lovely people.

I'm a pretty late comer to the whole indo thing so not sure how things have changed over a long period , but an interesting observation from a Christian indo teacher I had was how in jakarta years ago many girls got around in short skirts, and very few used to wear the jilbab or hijab. not sure it's a post 9/11 thing but I've read it elsewhere too that there has been a return to traditional ways and values, both religious and otherwise. and this isn't just an indo thing. western countries have seen it too with christians like the exclusive brethren, where girls wear long dresses and headgear too, which kinda cracks me up when ignorant Christian folk complain about muslim women and their headgear. governments have noticed this change too, where before they thought it was all about enlightening countries and communities aiming for a secular world, now the MO is pluralism and tolerance. when you look at some of the decadence of western ways, it's hardly surprising (and quite encouraging) that some have the nouse and integrity to reject them.

another thing that could be turning communities to traditional Islam is the charitable work the mosques do. where governments have neglected poorer communities, the mosque often provides health care and education (pretty lame biased education) but education nonetheless. this is where ISIS and co. have been successful in winning the hearts and minds of iindividuals. this is also where the USA has been very slow to realise, if you want people on side maybe supply the basics rather than bombing the fuck out what little they have and tthen try to win hearts and minds with coercion, people will say yes to anything if you offer a wad of US dollars, if doesn't necessarily mean they're on side when push comes to shove.

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sypkan commented Thursday, 31 Dec 2015 at 6:05pm

prothero, sorry didn't read your post before as I just assumed it was a cut and paste job....ever heard the old addage' less is more'

yeh some pretty startling statistics there, but I'd really like to see the wording of the questions posed. depending on the wording some of those statements I could agree with, especially when I look at how the US and Isreal conduct themselves. as to hamas, well they're a democratically elected government in my book, just because america doesn't like them doesn't make them illegitimate. they're supposedly imposing democracy in all the places they have meddled. do they believe in democracy or not? if the people chose someone you don't like, bad luck...suck it up

mate, I agree Islam is full of all sorts of problems, all the Abrahamic religions are, probably Islam moreso than the others, but the lefty do gooders have quashed any chance of debate about such things by labeling anyone islamaphobic who wishes to talk about such things, google what stephen fry says about it, I totally agree.

we're almost at the stage where we can talk about it. I see obama and the head dude of jordan meekily raised these things around the time of the paris attacks. we are almost mature and/or desperate enough to debate this stuff, I wish half of these leftys knew what they were talking about because they're just as ignorant as the people they're criticising.

while turkeyman unfortunately shut down blowin in the other thread about using the old 'us and them' term, unfortunately we do have to define 'us and them'. and as the security expert on QandA said the other week, we have a choice in defining 'us and them', and we're much better aligning with moderate muslims and making the 'them' the 15 million nutjobs you crudely counted. to the credit of the indonesians they have done that without billions spent on public education and deradicalisation campaigns. makes one think despite all our wealth and education...geez are we a bit dumb or something?

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Sheepdog commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 9:56am

A "news" article on facebook.. By a christian nutter.... Must be true.... 1000 seems to be a convenient number... Not 940 or 1050, 1128, 1200....... "1000"...... Jeff King must have a new book in the wings yeah?
I'll see if I can find a link for Indo.... Oh hand on... People here don't like research.... ;)

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 9:59am

sypkan wrote: prothero, sorry didn't read your post before as I just assumed it was a cut and paste job....ever heard the old addage' less is more'

yeh some pretty startling statistics there, but I'd really like to see the wording of the questions posed. depending on the wording some of those statements I could agree with, especially when I look at how the US and Isreal conduct themselves. as to hamas, well they're a democratically elected government in my book, just because america doesn't like them doesn't make them illegitimate. they're supposedly imposing democracy in all the places they have meddled. do they believe in democracy or not? if the people chose someone you don't like, bad luck...suck it up

mate, I agree Islam is full of all sorts of problems, all the Abrahamic religions are, probably Islam moreso than the others, but the lefty do gooders have quashed any chance of debate about such things by labeling anyone islamaphobic who wishes to talk about such things, google what stephen fry says about it, I totally agree.

we're almost at the stage where we can talk about it. I see obama and the head dude of jordan meekily raised these things around the time of the paris attacks. we are almost mature and/or desperate enough to debate this stuff, I wish half of these leftys knew what they were talking about because they're just as ignorant as the people they're criticising.

while turkeyman unfortunately shut down blowin in the other thread about using the old 'us and them' term, unfortunately we do have to define 'us and them'. and as the security expert on QandA said the other week, we have a choice in defining 'us and them', and we're much better aligning with moderate muslims and making the 'them' the 15 million nutjobs you crudely counted. to the credit of the indonesians they have done that without billions spent on public education and deradicalisation campaigns. makes one think despite all our wealth and education...geez are we a bit dumb or something?

Bullshit.... And happy new year , sypo... ;)

Sheepdog

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sypkan commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 4:10pm

awww come on sheepdog, obama is talking about it, if we're nice about it, surely we can talk about it

and the security guy on QandA was definitely no Islamaphobe, in fact he came across as quite the opposite, have a watch, he was one switched on dude

and happy new year to you, let's hope it's a peaceful one

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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 5:19pm

On the covering up thing : In general i think Indonesian women also cover up not just for religious or moral reasons but just to stop their skin getting darker as Indonesian society like many asian cultures society generally views dark skin as unattractive i guess in part just as a grass is greener kind of thing just like many anglo saxon want tan/brown skin, and also because if you have dark skin it means you may have worked out doors in a low paying labour kind of job, hence dark skin is also often associated with village girls who are also often viewed as uneducated, even when you watch indo TV all the girls are very lightly tanned even white and lots of celebrities are mixed Indonesian-anglow saxon.

I don't actually mind hijabs/jilbab i kind of even find them attractive on some girls, its funny I've noticed a few Indonesian female friends that were/are very western in their thoughts and lifestyle drinking and partying who never wore one in that era of their life but now they are married and have children are wearing hijabs, I've never inquired why maybe its just a maturing kind of thing.

Actually now i think of it twice on recent trips I've had two separate christian ibu friends also wear hijabs purely for sun protection both times traveling on long boats, both times it was like they had to explain to me why they were wearing it, like they were embarrassed and needed to explain.

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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 5:30pm

Does anyone know why Western culture seemed to adopt Christianity?

As both Christianity and Islam are both obviously from the middle east, there actually not that different from each other in many ways muslims even believe in Jesus and hold him in high regard, they just believe he was a prophet and not sun of god as Christians do.

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Sheepdog commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 5:43pm

indo-dreaming wrote: Does anyone know why Western culture seemed to adopt Christianity?

As both Christianity and Islam are both obviously from the middle east, there actually not that different from each other in many ways muslims even believe in Jesus and hold him in high regard, they just believe he was a prophet and not sun of god as Christians do.

I know why... I could supply a link, indo.....

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 5:57pm

sypkan wrote: awww come on sheepdog, obama is talking about it, if we're nice about it, surely we can talk about it

and the security guy on QandA was definitely no Islamaphobe, in fact he came across as quite the opposite, have a watch, he was one switched on dude

and happy new year to you, let's hope it's a peaceful one

Well you lost me when I got to ,,,,,, "but the lefty do gooders have quashed any chance of debate about such things "......
Nah man...... All that statement says to me is where you stand personally....... Debate is wide open... Debate is happening daily... These "lefty do gooders" you speak of haven't silenced Alan Jones, or Pauline Hanson, or Steve Price, or Tony Abbott, or Andrew Bolt, or Donald Trump, or Geert Wilders... The only attempt at silencing came from the far right Tony Abbott, and his banning of all coalition politicians appearing on Q & A after that extreme beat up.... There is no silencing of "the debate"...... But IMO it's the wrong debate anyway..

I apologize in advance to Indo for the link lol..... But this is what needs to be debated, not this "the muslims did it" facade that has permeated the fog of war....

Sheepdog

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mk1 commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 8:08pm

Good video SD.

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Blowin commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 8:55pm

Sunni Vs Shia.

But definitely not related to Islam.

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Sheepdog commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 9:35pm

Blowin wrote: Sunni Vs Shia.

But definitely not related to Islam.

They're just the puppets in the "oil and gas theatre show"..... Sponsored by Uncle Sam and "Lenin lite"..... Coming to a cinema near you.......

Meanwhile, chemical warfare of a different sort continues..... Hardly gets a mention.... But they're only palestinians, right?

"Israel Admits to Spraying Poisons Inside Gaza Strip"
"The Israeli Army has admitted that they used crop-dusters to kill hundreds of acres of Palestinian crops, claiming that it was to “enable security operations.”

And you wonder why the hatred? At least we all got to see the fireworks on the news.... Oh and the miss universe fuck up..

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151229/1032470597/israel-sprays-pois...

Sheepdog

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zenagain commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 10:14pm

The Chick from the Phillipines was way hotter than the Colombian.

I think the decision was right and just.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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Blowin commented Friday, 1 Jan 2016 at 10:36pm

I concur, Dr Zen.

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sypkan commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 1:42am

yeh sheepdog I shouldn't use such inflammatory/isolating language about leftys...but they do piss me off, and like stephen fry I do think they stifle debate, and not just about Islam. sorry its a bit of a pet hate of mine. geez the other week some lefty lesbian academic type was trying to silence germaine greer, and protesting about greer appearing at a university. when you've got a lefty lesbian academic type trying to silence the godmother of feminism, things are getting really weird!!

I disagree about the debate thing because as fry says, you can't even mention anything about Islam without someone yelling islamaphobe. the result is many people are scared to discuss things publically. which leads to the nutcases you listed above (bolt and co.) making an issue of things, then people don't wanna be associated with the nutcases so they remain silent. this makes bolt and co. go harder and the cycle spirals out of control.

indo d is correct muslims do believe in jesus, however he was JUST a prophet, a prophet trumped by Mohamed, the last prophet. my understanding is muslims believe in all three of the good books as a series. and yes all three of those silly old books have weird totally irrelevant ideas from a different era. however MOST Christians and jews overlook a lot of the irrelevant stuff in the modern context. whereas many muslims are much more reluctant to question ' the word of god' ...fair enough, that's their thing.

obama and the jordan head honcho did raise concerns about some of the text in the koran. and other muslims are starting to raise concerns also, it appears they're also tired of this terrorism thing and their kids being brainwashed by nutcase preachers. that video on the other thread springs to mind, as does a book called 'no god but god' I almost read, almost because the pages were too long and the writing too small for a habitual non reader like myself to finish it, but I must try again, as it is an excellent book for anyone remotely interested in islam.

the author, some rizal guy (a muslim) gives a good history of islam and how it fits in the modern world. he says much of the koran was written about a desert tribal warfare era that has little relevance to modern muslims. he draws similarities with the bible, however points out how christianity made serious reforms to accomodate the new knowledge of the enlightenment. he says Islam has not had this reform process. he puts it down to the rules of islam, so to speak, beimg created by various different committees for different countries as dandandan eloquently described elswhere. having diffferent committees making rules for different places makes consensus quite difficult. no doubt these committees are unduly influenced by what is said and done in Saudi Arabia, it being mecca and all, therefore probably beyond question. an example of this is Indonesia, where hundreds of maids are abused, raped and even killed, but indo says very little because it's Saudi Arabia, therefore above reproach.

as southeys excellent atlantic article pointed out muslims are also reluctant to call each other out on issues and behaviour. this is because they don't want their own devotion questioned, this is because they're scared that person may be more pious and better educated in the koran than they are, which leads to other problems for the caller outer. anyone whose read hotel k will know the muslim guards were quite scared of the piousness of the bali bombers, despite what they had done.

so sheepdog, I'm not bashing islam and I really don't know what you mean by

"All that statement says to me is where you stand personally....... "

you mean I'm a right wing nutter? or an islamaphobe?

I'm neither, I'm just relaying what I've heard about the topic from a wide variety of sources. and I've noticed the public discourse is changing quite a bit from "don't talk about that" to "we need to talk about that" to show these potential terrorists they are being inspired by dark ages ideas and logic.

geez if that socialist muslim president barack obama is talking about it, clearly these things need to be raised. because not talking about stuff has got us nowhere, and the recruiters, both homegrown and syrian are currently winning the battle for hearts and minds

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mk1 commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 1:50am

1. Definitely agree about Ms Philippines

2. You take any group of people and expose them to the disruptive conflict the Muslims have been/are going through and they won't end up all love and hugs. Plenty of very peaceful Muslim nations in the world/the ones we are complaining about are the ones that are most disrupted.

3. Catholics vs Protestants (European wars of religion) wiped out about 35% of central Europe and was some of the bloodiest conflict witnessed up to that point. But underlying it was the power struggles of king as much as the religion, and even those guys worshiped the same god.

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Sheepdog commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 11:28am

Sypkan.....

"I disagree about the debate thing because as fry says, you can't even mention anything about Islam without someone yelling islamaphobe"
Who the fuck is Fry?.... He's an actor, right?... Mate, I can't mention anything here on SN about refugees or the background to this whole middle east debacle without some "right wing hack" calling me "un Australian", or "you're with us or against us" or "you're a muslim sympathizer"..... So what it shows is that there are people on both sides of the spectrum who are using gutter tactics to stifle this "so called debate"...
But no one provoked your to bring "lefties" into this discussion, Sypo... So, you are demonstrating in my opinion a pre conceived bias of pro right anti left.... Almost tribal in its essence....
I also note that no one touched the Israel war crime of poisoning food.... In fact zenagan even went as far as to lambaste, which sort of saddened me... Blowins comment was expected..... What that shows is how we in the west treat the misery of children in gaza... These children grow up.... The cycle continues... Israel has built a wall... turned an area into a ghetto, poisoned their food..... The nazis would be laughing in their graves.... When they protest, get violent, fight back towards Israel, we yell "bad terrorist"....
Am i a crazy lefty for saying that, sypo?

Sheepdog

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Sheepdog commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 11:43am

And Sypo, As far as how "islam" fits into the modern world, if the author of that was agnostic, or an atheist, then I'd say fair enough..... But if the author is a devoted christian, like the president of the christian movement re' the link Groundswell provided for this thread (who BTW smuggles bibles and trains underground priests in non christian regions of the world), I'd take the article as completely tainted..... These hardcore christians who have infiltrated governments and are just as keen on an "end of days" scenario (but are going about it behind closed doors - like they do with most things eg - muslims publicly marry 12yo's - chistrians fuck them behind the church) need to look long and hard at their own antique beliefs.... When they say pregnancy from rape is "a gift from god" and that the pregnancy cannot be terminated, when they gun down people at abortion clinics, when they say contraception is a sin, when they cover up child molesting priests, when they say gay people can't marry, when they back government sanctioned execution quoting the old testament, highlighting the misgivings of Islam is merely another smokescreen in their ongoing modern crusade.

Sheepdog

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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 12:46pm

I think the biggest problem with Islam as a religion compared to others, is its intolerance not just the radicals but in general, all religions don't like being criticised or mocked but generally speaking (yes there may be exceptions) most don't react with violence, for instance if i was an artist i could do an artwork making a statement against Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism even mock their beliefs and although i would expect an outcry and protest and maybe some crazes trying to destroy the art work if on display which you would expect.

But if you were an artist you would have to have some balls to do one that could be seen as mocking Islam as you would basically be putting your life at risk.

I think that really sucks, sure you should respect peoples religions to a degree especially in person but in a general public kind of arena where your not focusing on an individual you should also be able to say Islam or Christianity sucks blah blah blah without having your life threatened, I don't think any religion should be above criticism and should be critiqued to adapt to the standards of modern society, not the other way around.

BTW. Sypkan i agree on the Islamphobia thing i think its gone to far, it does suck though when you see comments on social media etc that are unfairly negative about Islam from people who have no idea.

Hhhmmm maybe that seems all contractive?…I guess I'm trying to say Islam like any religion shouldn't be above criticism, but if your going to criticise it at least have some understanding and knowledge about it first.

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tonybarber commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 12:59pm

Indo, I dont think we can expect everyone to understand the multitudes of flavours of any religious flavour, be it Islam, Christian or what ever - way to complex. However, I think we all should be allowed to critique it, as you say by art or whatever form. This goes back to your previous point about tolerance - a key trait of any civilised society. It is fair to say that the current Islam phobia is a reaction not a cause. Sure maybe an over reaction in parts.
I think we all need to acknowledge is that 'god' is mans creation. Dispute is inevitable.

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Sheepdog commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 2:02pm

"Racism, a beast cornered if not tamed after much struggle, has lumbered back to civil society in the solemn guise of “reforming” Islam. Tony Blair summons us to worldwide battle on behalf of western values while embodying, with his central Asian clients, their comprehensive negation. The handful of media institutions and individuals that are not obliged to flesh out Rupert Murdoch’s tweets on Muslims seem to be struggling to remain viable in an increasingly retrogressive political culture."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/01/generation-failed-p...

Sheepdog

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sypkan commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 2:34pm

fry is very very intelligent comedian who happens to be gay and quite left in his leanings, like me...joking. he used to do that q i or i q2 or whatever on the ABC.

sheepdog my furry friend I don't think anyone on here has labelled you 'un australian' for your refugee comments, yeh maybe a muslim sympathizer, but i have also had that label put to me. what the fuck is that anyway? besides being intended as an insult, what the fuck is it? if its someone who has concern for muslims being fucked over by grossly hypocritical western governments.. .yeh that's me. I have criticised Israel numerous times on here so there's actually a lot we agree on. I totally agree regarding Christians inciting the end of days under the guise of being a secular government. it's a fucken joke and the born again Christian nutcases like bush are/were the worst offenders. their support for Israel has very little to do with past persecution and anti semitism, in fact they believe jesus or god or whatever will only save them when the jews rule all of the holy lands hence their blind support for Israel, blind support where 100 odd countries vote in the UN for Israel to stop invading Palestinian territory, yes INVADING, and out of all the coutries in tbe UN, they ALL agree, everyone agrees!! unheard of, except two countries that abstain from voting, two counties against the world!! who are they? the US of course, and fucking australia!!! so yeh I'm with you. the hypocrisy around Israel is outrageous.

totally agree with everything you say indo d. no one likes their faith challenged, but muslims need to grow up a bit and accept the whole world doesn't think like them, and the left (yeh I'll bag em one more time) needs to accept that their softly softly approach isn't working. all it's doing is pissing off those 'aussie patriot' types which leads to the fucked up social media stuff indo d is on about. which is just fanning the flames for both sides. and it is a bit hypocritical that the left constantly bags various strains and beliefs of the christian faith but then has a hissy fit if anyone says anything about islam

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sypkan commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 2:39pm

BTW I agree with the many comments on here about religion being a by product to conflict about territory and resources. religion is arbitrary, it's just the dogma of the burb you're born into, while we all compete for resources

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Sheepdog commented Saturday, 2 Jan 2016 at 3:23pm

sypkan wrote: BTW I agree with the many comments on here about religion being a by product to conflict about territory and resources. religion is arbitrary, it's just the dogma of the burb you're born into, while we all compete for resources

Competition for resources................ That's the one, mate.... The syrian gas pipeline..... Sidetrack the masses... Create confusion.... Fan the flames of bigotry....
Oh and I've had my allegiance to Australia questioned here, mate.... Many a time... I'd give you one guess who the main culprit is... But that's just too easy to answer.. ;) STRAYA!!!! OI OI OI!!!!!

Sheepdog

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tonybarber commented Sunday, 3 Jan 2016 at 11:41am

When the Saudis execute a Shiite, it's more than just about resources.

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Blowin commented Sunday, 3 Jan 2016 at 11:47am

No that's about resources too.

These people are flawless.

Child - like innocents that WE ....That's you and me ( well mostly you ) .... have driven into an uncontrollable self destructive , murderous rage through ill treatment.

I don't know how you can look at yourself in the mirror.

Every time I see a homosexual thrown off a building in Syria because they were true to themselves, I hate myself a little more and think .... What have I done ?

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sypkan commented Sunday, 3 Jan 2016 at 3:31pm

ok...mainly about resources

if you're born and live your whole life in a war zone, war is all you know, the west has done too much meddling to be void of any responsibility. the scorecard over the last 20 years is a damming one, hard to pick anything we've gotten right, maybe Afghanistan, but even that's debatable.

we know and accommodate what childhood trauma does to kids in the west, but we expect the middle east people to forget everything and just get on with life?

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zenagain commented Monday, 4 Jan 2016 at 7:22pm

If you want my opinion on Israel poisoning crops, I think it's a fucking travesty and I hate that as soon as you say anything even slightly contrary about Jews you are immediately branded anti-semetic and in bed with Hitler. Truth is, like everybody, there are fuckwits in any creed and colour. I personally know a couple of Jews and they're good guys. On the same token I lived and worked in a couple of Jewish areas in Sydney (St Ives where a lot of South African Jews chose to make their home with the end of apartheid) and my office was two doors down from the great Synagogue on Elizabeth St Sydney CBD. Some of those South African Jews were the meanest, rudest most spiteful people you could never wish to meet. Nasty for sport you might say.

On the same token, I don't have many Muslim friends but the two I do are very moderate and great fun and can easily poke fun at themselves. But, in my travels i've met a few and they made it clear they didn't hold me in high regard. Others have been lovely, what can I say?

Coincidentally (don't judge me on this) I was up the pointy end of a Qatar airways plane a year or so ago and it was pretty quiet until a family (Dad, Mum, two teenage girls and about a ten year old boy boarded late. They changed out of their Burkas and into the PJ's and proceeded to make the flight living hell for one poor flight attendant. They were the most disgusting human beings I think I'd ever seen. I'm pretty sure they were Saudis but whatever they were they were right royal c..ts.

I firmly believe that Israel should have a right to their own homeland and the Palestinians too but while the US government is top heavy with Jews making big bucks selling arms to Israel, that aint going to happen in a hurry. And while the Palestinians have a religious decree to kill any Jew on sight well that aint making them any less paranoid as well.

The point really is, I just don't know. It's hard for me to have an opinion one way or the other because most people I know or have ever come in to contact with have pretty much the same goal in life- warm bed, full belly, educate their kids and take a holiday every now and then. Product of my environment I suppose.

So there you go- longwinded no-answer:)

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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groundswell commented Friday, 15 Jan 2016 at 3:59am

Suicide bombers in central jakarta (not far from jalan jaksa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO5vtiH99Eg

According to my friend who lives not far from there says this-it happened this way:
" first one suicide bomber exploded himself in the police post (only a space for like 3 to 4 officer inside in case they need shade after doing traffic controlling), one officer dead and 1 civilian dead along with 1 suicide bomber. Another one spotted by the rest of police officer at the location being chased... but then he decided also exploded him self near that police post. Quiet for a while, people were gathering... curious to see what really happened. A police car came with several more policemen tried to secure the area and worked on perimeter. Another 2 cars with police officers came from the direction of presidential office stopped just near the intersection (in front view of starbucks) with several police officers followed behind using motorbikes. What they did not know was... another 2 terrorists were blended in with (civilian) spectators. Then all of sudden one grab a pistol out of his jacket and opened fire to a person (detective?) nearby... shot to death.. then spectators were fleed.. he pointed his gun to a couple of police officer nearby and shot them (dunno if any from them down) and opened fire randomly. Another one acted as a spectator ... run... but then instead of reaching to a building area nearby, he went to the black cars of police officers... sneaked to behind of the cars... then all of sudden his arm with a gun came out from his hiding (police officers are near by the cars) shot the police... another one down. He then followed his first friend to ran to the parking area in front of starbucks and hide there. Gun shot happened afterward and it seems they were run out of ammo while another one seems to got shot. That was when they decided to blow themselves away."

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dandandan commented Friday, 15 Jan 2016 at 8:18am

Yeah.. Heartbreaking stuff. I was on the phone to a friend in a building nearby and one on the street, and they said it was a very odd feeling. Despite the obvious risk, and high profile of terrorism in general across the world lately, they didn't feel such a great panic and there were many thousands of people standing around observing what was happening. The woman on the ground is older, and says there was a much greater sense of panic in 1998.

It certainly follows a few of the trends already identified in Indonesian extremism: mostly targeting police and domestic authority figures, low impact explosives, seemingly little sophistication. Indonesia does a pretty fantastic job of trying to police most forms of terrorism, given the relatively large cohort of blokes who've spent time in Afghanistan, those who have trained in Aceh/Poso etc, and the untold millions who have plenty of legitimate gripes with the authorities. The problem according to most key players is information... Too much information comes in but it is difficult to turn that into knowledge. They must receive constant reports of various Bapaks who have declared they are going to 'blow up the council offices' or 'shoot a policeman'.. How do you explore them all and decide what's real and what is just, essentially, gossip?

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sypkan commented Saturday, 16 Jan 2016 at 2:05pm

heart breaking indeed!

you've got to love the Indonesian spirit through all this, while most communities are stoic faced with such adversity, their attitude to get on with stuff and use of humour is admirable.

http://m.theage.com.au/world/jakarta-attacks-on-social-media-keep-calm-a...

this may not be the place or time to continue this debate...but hey, let's get on with it .

so mr. herder of sheep hound, my observations about squashing debate are bullshit. well here it is from the horses mouth. from that left wing rag people love so much (myself included). from a self proclaiming lefty liberal feminist no less. it took the rape and pillage if a hundred of her sisters for her to say it, but here's some quotes...

whether it’s because the attackers are widely described as looking Arab or north African. Which is why, of course, liberals like me are reluctant to talk about it.

and being upfront at all times about doing so. Bluster and blame fools nobody. But neither, it turns out, does queasy silence.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-har...

just to show I'm not being islamaphobic, I don't think it's even about islam. it's more about the culture developed around certain places and islam. as regular indo travellers would know, indo women pretty much run the show. and padang people, or the minangkabau, are known and celebrated as being a matriarchal society. but clearly some cultures may need a little social conditioning before they are accepted by, and accept, the west, as they are doing in Norway