Hellfire as a semi-gun ?

uncle_leroy's picture
uncle_leroy started the topic in Friday, 6 Dec 2013 at 11:56am

Hi fella's,
I'm a looking at an option of a next step up/semi gun for a few larger waves.
Would a firewire hellfire 6'8" FST be a suitable board for margies waves like bombie, gallows, southsides/main break etc up around the 6ft size ?
Normal shortie is a 6'0 FW spitfire with step up a 6"4 merrick but it just doesn't have the length to get me into the larger walls.
The hellfire is 6' 8", 21", 2 7/8", diamond, 43.1L
i'd realistically will need to be looking at a 7'2"-7'8" but for the moment I will be happy surfing 6ft waves of fatness till get into to bigger stuff a bit more (one of those lidders that started riding a stick)
The bloke across the road has one in his garage for a reasonable price and looks like a nice shape with that bit of extra length and volume to get me moving. Just not sure if it would be a suitable shape for taking some larger drops.
Would you run a quad or thruster ?
Cheers
Leroy

groundswell's picture
groundswell's picture
groundswell commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 4:36am

Id go something more gunny that shape seems a bit of a small wave allrounder not so much a step up.
Also what you learn on or spend a a lot of time on in the first few years of getting "good" or whatever, often determines what sort of style surfing-waves you chase and boards you have throughout the future. Unless you can get into mixing it up, like rasta and Machado. However for a lot of us others it can mess with your style.

You could use that board in bigger fat waves id say not so much hollow. it looks like more of a around headhigh hybrid shape with lots of volume shape though. If Use anything often enough and you can surf it in wider range than they are meant for.

Its hard to tell without knowing your fitness level weight or height.

If you like that tech how about something more like the mayhem rocket? Good shape, suits barrels or small waves(according to a few reviews), can surf them short and pretty easy to ride.
Not so much a vert performance, rail to rail turn and snap etc board as far as i know.
Shapes like these have become popular in the last few years in good waves. Easy to travel with too.

I have a similar shape for good waves and would like a smaller similar shape ( Haydon shape shred sled or shred sled king) to suit it as less length is handy in some waves. By many reports good boards and good allrounders, snub ups they are pretty much - snub nose step up.
Others similar-
Rusty slayer
Alien step up- formula energy
Haydon shapes - shred sled or SS king and more by many others.

for best paddle volume start with volume in litres, minus your weight in kilo, if its very close to minus 40 its often a good paddler. for better turns and barrels go closer to minus 45 or so.
All depends on the waves you surf too and rips etc or dry hair paddle out channels :)

mundies's picture
mundies's picture
mundies commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 6:43am

Hayden Shred Sled is a great all rounder, dunno if I'd be calling it a step up but I've surfed it up to double overhead which it handles well when the fin combo is right.
Groundswell, interesting volume formula, I come in at -60 though on the majority of my boards…
My wife got a firewire hellrazor - she found the bevelled tail to catch too much. I got a FW unibrow, same thing but seemed to be more how sharp and thin the rail is in front of the fins

mundies

braithy's picture
braithy's picture
braithy commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 8:46am

I can vouch for the shred sled.

I had a 6'2" as a one board quiver for about 15 months. 1-foot beachies to 4-6 points to a 6-foot reef slab and it handled everything.

Fins are a big part of that though. As the waves get bigger you want bigger fins. I was using a pair of old sunny garcia fcs at 6ft and a little pair of Al merrick 2's in the small beachies.

At the slab, I put in a 4th fin and had it as a quad.

The shred sled is the only board i've owned where I thought it was a true hybrid thruster/ quad board. Other boards with the 5-fin setup seem to go better as a thruster or a quad. With the SS, it felt excellent as either or.

uncle_leroy's picture
uncle_leroy's picture
uncle_leroy commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 9:16am

looks like i will need to look at something a bit more pointy then, lol
looking at double overhead surf majority of the time for this board or however big the next set coming through is, not so much barrels atm but just steep walls. Hopefully a few cover ups once we get back into some winter pulses.
cheers

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 10:24am

Gidday, you would be better off contacting these guys.

http://www.deltadesigns.com.au/

https://m.facebook.com/MRSR6285?id=259901057440551&_rdr

They do boards for those waves all the time.

That's not a gun in the slightest, and is the wrong board for those waves when they are getting larger.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 2:41pm

Ive got a Hellfire, one of the best all round every day kind of boards I've ever had, goes great in a variety of waves, from knee to overhead, ive surfed it up to double overhead but its definitely not suited as a step up. it was actually developed from the spitfire, and is pretty much just a little more refined spitfire.

I use a flex fire for bigger or solid hollow waves, you would really need to choose a board from there high performance range to get the extra length, sounds like you would be after something like a 6,6 to 6,8 something like a Alternator or Flex fire (come in round and pin tails also)

From there performance hybrid range the mini driver and pile driver despite still being short still go good in hollow waves (think indo) and paddle good lots of foam under chest.

Anyway your spit fire has 34.9L volume, while a 6,8 hellfire has 43.1L..which would be way to much volume for you.

Quad or thruster is, just personal opinion/taste each surf different lines suit different kind of waves.

IMO

Quads= good in down the line kind of waves, long fast barrels especially ones you don't need to stall to get in but need speed to get out, or any waves you need heaps of speed to make sections even if not hollow, personally i like them better than thrusters backhand, that said quads also work well in wide short grovel type boards basically because there loose and generate lots of natural speed.

Thrusters= much better top to bottom, go heaps better in short walled peaks or waves you need to stall to get into barrels, generally not as fast as quads but more reliable.

groundswell's picture
groundswell's picture
groundswell commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 4:03pm

mundies wrote: Hayden Shred Sled is a great all rounder, dunno if I'd be calling it a step up but I've surfed it up to double overhead which it handles well when the fin combo is right.
Groundswell, interesting volume formula, I come in at -60 though on the majority of my boards…
My wife got a firewire hellrazor - she found the bevelled tail to catch too much. I got a FW unibrow, same thing but seemed to be more how sharp and thin the rail is in front of the fins

I was more thinking of the shred sled king but i edited it before posting.

That minus 40 isnt really a rule and is only for paddle, once up and into them want much less negative float.
That formula is what a shaper told me once.
Just looking at the boards ive had and my own weight, a few months ago i had a mini beer gut and was up to 78kg now im down to 62kg ? in winter i tend to drink more beer and use internet or tv more often so put on a few kg. Then board choice changes.
Also if surfing everyday even if weighing around 80 can surf a much smaller board.
Its also at after working a lot of hours- then heading over seas for a long stint, at the start thinnest chosen board doesn't go well, then after a few weeks it goes better than the rest for the rest of the trip as you get fit on trips like that surfing lots of good waves.

My car was hit by a damn taxi driver last night, written off, so it looks like either get a bus a lot now or get pushbike into gear. Still wont be surfing much i guess until payout comes.

Its 8foot plus here today too with good winds for some places. Missed it at some fave spots a fair way away.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 6:27pm

Where you surf IMO is also a factor on volume, for instance a wet 4/3 wetsuit weighs quite a bit and even with the wetsuits of today can still feel like a monkey is on your back.

Yes once your in the water a wetsuit gives you extra buoyancy but when on top of a board its extra weight not buoyancy.

While in warm water in boardies its much easier to paddle and less weight.

Also waves you surf play a factor in how well you need a board to paddle, not only for surfing and takeoff, but some places there is very little currents and its an easy paddle other places you need a board that paddles well, think sweeps on some east coast points or rips on victorian style rip beachies.

Also there is a degree of difference in buoyancy between different foam/blanks in density or types PU, PS, EPS and even Balsa i guess.

How much of a difference i really dont know?

And to make things more complicated, volume doesn't necessarily equal a good/easy paddling board its only a factor, width, length, rocker, foam distribution are also factors.

groundswell's picture
groundswell's picture
groundswell commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 8:16pm

Agree with that ID. The fishy snub noses and a bit wider dont need to be thick to paddle well. my formula -alien step up isnt high volume with the low rails but paddles well and is hard to duckdive in big surf due to the nose.
I wonder if those concave decks paddle just as well as a non concave deck of same design??

It can do your head in getting volume right. I like riding different boards it is a lot of fun and refreshing however i think Parko is onto it with simple designs all similar for the tour.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Sunday, 8 Dec 2013 at 10:34pm

Yeh, another big, usually totally overlooked factor is water temperature. Boards float better in the tropics than they do in cold water. So if you order from the east coast, its true, the 4/3 makes an appreciable difference, and also added is the less flotation in cold water. A good shaper should be onto it, most will push for thinness, citing what works in their area, or Indo.

Swell speed and volume of water is a huge factor too. Camel was/is all over that stuff. He wore the paddle gloves too, and said taking them off really highlighted the benefits. Its awesome seeing deluxe paddlers/technique. Obviously Slater, Camel. And Justin Remais.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 7:21am

groundswell wrote:
I wonder if those concave decks paddle just as well as a non concave deck of same design??

It can do your head in getting volume right. I like riding different boards it is a lot of fun and refreshing however i think Parko is onto it with simple designs all similar for the tour.

Id like to try a concave deck, but you would loose heaps of volume, would also change the flex pattern of the board especially a traditional centre stringer board.

I like ridding different boards, but as much as i like super short wide boards, ive found it really hard to go from that type of board back to even a performance hybrid type of board, if i was surfing more maybe i could do it but living in Vic in spring..argh

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 7:29am

uplift wrote: Yeh, another big, usually totally overlooked factor is water temperature. Boards float better in the tropics than they do in cold water. So if you order from the east coast, its true, the 4/3 makes an appreciable difference, and also added is the less flotation in cold water. A good shaper should be onto it, most will push for thinness, citing what works in their area, or Indo.

Swell speed and volume of water is a huge factor too. Camel was/is all over that stuff. He wore the paddle gloves too, and said taking them off really highlighted the benefits. Its awesome seeing deluxe paddlers/technique. Obviously Slater, Camel. And Justin Remais.

I was going to mention water temp as that can affect water density but I'm kinda skeptical on how much water temp plays a part, from say winter in vic to somewhere warmer it could be a 15-20 degree difference, ive tried to find a definite answer/evidence to suggest its enough of a temp change to make a difference, but have only found conflicting views and nothing related to surfing.

Would love to have a view world renowned shapers on this.

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 2:38pm

I'd have to disagree Uplift.

Cold water is denser than warm water, so a board in colder water would float better as it can't penetrate the liquid as easily. Then in warmer water it would penetrate easier and hence be less floaty.

But... The changes in water temp to the feeling of 'float' on a board would be negligible.

It'd be the freer feeling of being out of a wetsuit, in warmer less dense water that would be way more noticeable than board float IMO.

Also changes in salinity are what make the biggest differences in density of water compared to the same change in temperature.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 2:44pm

are there any changes in salinity around the oz coast ?

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 2:52pm

Yeah totally,

Entrances to river mouths and free flowing rivers will see lower salinities, and then in the SA Gulfs and other inverse estuaries you get much higher salinities than the ambient ocean.

Again, probably not noticeable for most of us..

reecen's picture
reecen's picture
reecen commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 3:21pm

On the money Craig, even with a 150ton vessel the difference in salt and freshwater only makes about an inch difference to the height she sits in the water.
To notice that kind of difference as a surfer is like the princess and the pea.

Uplift with the muscles you have I would have been surprised if you noticed a sea anchor had been tied to your board.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:04pm

Its deceiving Craig. The cold water is denser as you say, but that means that a board trying to push through it, or paddle, has a harder time. Especially when the wet wetsuit weight is added as well. Its trying to displace more water weight, and simultaneously deal with more friction. Its partly why it feels so good paddling in warm water, not just because of the no wettie thing. In cold water, more volume means less board underwater, less water to displace, less friction.

One area that water temperature really effects is wipeouts. Hitting the cold water in a heavy wipeout is really different to the tropics. Way less penetration. Like hitting concrete sometimes in really cold water. Sometimes I wonder if that, and wetsuits played a role in Mark Foo's death.

Everyone notices how much better they paddle in the tropics, but always put it down to wetties.

reecen's picture
reecen's picture
reecen commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:16pm

That's because it does come down to wetties

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:21pm

'Uplift with the muscles you have I would have been surprised if you noticed a sea anchor had been tied to your board.'

Gidday dots, I'd notice it, but it just wouldn't bother me. Glad you've noticed my muscles... not that I openly display them. Normally I try to conceal them, rather than become the centre of attention, especially if there's lots of ladies around.

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:22pm

Agree on wipeouts in cold water being heavier, and the waves also, but sorry don't agree on the friction/float theory.

reecen's picture
reecen's picture
reecen commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:24pm

Not sure if you openly display them but dot dot dot dot dot dot you do openly talk about them dot dot dot alot.
Have you noticed how much faster you get to climax whilst beating off in a warm bath as opposed to a cold bath dot dot dot amazing.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:26pm

Are you saying that colder, heavier water isn't harder to displace, and doesn't create more friction?

reecen's picture
reecen's picture
reecen commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:27pm

I am saying that you wouldn't notice the difference, princess.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:32pm

'Have you noticed how much faster you get to climax whilst beating off in a warm bath as opposed to a cold bath dot dot dot amazing.'

Great discovery dotssy! You've actually, finally achieved something in your existance! And absolutely no doubt you've put hours and hours and hours and ... I was going to say miles and miles, but in your case its probably micro millimetres into your experimentation.

reecen's picture
reecen's picture
reecen commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:38pm

Uplift when you are performing experiments does it add to the sensation having two boiled eggs jiggling in your mouth??

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 4:40pm

There's no prize for second dottsy. Again.

reecen's picture
reecen's picture
reecen commented Monday, 9 Dec 2013 at 6:49pm

Second at what? Climaxing while beating off in a tub, gargling eggs?