When will the teachings of Islam be reformed to be more relevant in the 21st century and why is it that people in this modern society still believe in god. I would have thought that any one with a funtional brain can see it as fabricated myth handed down from centuries ago.
To have people kill others in the name of god is made more sickening by the fact one doesn't exist.
I would probably apply the same logic to most religions too rather than just islam
Expect it will be a very slow process like most religions Islam is popular in developing countries where people need something to get them through the hardships of life, be it poverty or even war.
Christianity has possibly adapted and evolved a little more because of it's take up by western countries and because the bible is divided into the old and new testament so most of the outdated aspects are in the old testament like an "eye for an eye" etc so most Christians believe the rules of the news testament are the ones to live by and not the old.
Buddhism and Hinduism doesn't really need to be reformed because although still fairytales there still kind cool fairytales and generally peaceful, but some Burmese muslims might not agree with that.
I guess there's always scientology.
Unfortunately you cant reform Islam. The guys roaming around killing everyone and plundering goods and women are doing exactly what Mohammad did in the first place. The religion started in Mecca when he was jealous of "The people of the book" that is the bible and the Jews and Christians. He decided to start his own movement and was ejected by his own kin and taken in as a refugee into Medina where he turned desert pirate and started plundering the caravans travelling to Mecca. He eventually turned on his own residents who took him in and his new religion grew in number as he got richer and more slave chicks. (Sound Familiar)...To cut it short, most Moslems identify with a religion that keeps them in line and gives them a sense of superiority. If they dig deep and follow their founder to the letter you have a religion of war and conquest to first plunder and enslave a society (zimmitude) then kill the "Kaffirs" or non Moslems when you have worn them out and consumed all their assets. All false religions have a control the people for a purpose mentality. Only Christianity Jesus taught in its true sense (not Roman Catholic or other false twists of it), have the way to God with its mission statement being "Love Jesus and be friends with God who loves you very much just as you are". be assured He does exist, we saw him in the visible image of "The Son" when he came to visit..A visit that reset the clocks and changed the world. The creator comes as one of us and substitutes himself in death for us...Blood for blood ...life for life...He's a great guy and loves us all so talk to Him no matter What you've done ...no matter where you are are..its nice to set the record straight with Him and flow into a new relationship with He who made us. This friendship of Father and child is eternal, hence the rest of the story after death...Oh yeh and He can surf (walk on water) without a board ...very cool.
I would like to say straight away that I have no problem with people believing in what they want but when it causes people to take their belief/teachings and justify to cause unprecedented hate and suffering to others then that is a series problem.
This goes to all religions not just Islam. If you look at the suffering and killings ( just read up on how to skin a person )in the name of christianity centuries ago we would want to wipe christianity out but they have moved with the times and all power to them.
I actually a have a old copy of the Koran at work and browse through it when I find time.
There is definitely a lot o passages in the Koran that can be used to justify the wiping out of Kafir's.
I have a really nice young Muslim friend I met rock fishing ( He lives the the Heart of Auburn ). Now we talk about this all the time and his belief is to treat people with respect and be nice to everyone and can't understand this hate perpetrated in the name of Islam. The problem is he told me is that he avoids going to a mosque because they teach intolerance to western value's. So I said to him does that mean to be a moderate Muslim you must not follow the religion in the way the mosque's(or Iman's ) are teaching it. To that he agreed. The funny thing he said to me was that Aussie treat him better than his own type( religion and race). The two lot's he hate the most are Leb's and Muslim's.
By the way Indo Dreaming and Optimist both of your reply's are very constructive.
Way way back in time tribal leaders discovered that religion, superstition and taboos were remarkably effective ways of controlling and leading people without having to use force. Witch doctors controlled tribes up until recent times with a mixture of fear and mysticism.
The emperor Constantine moved Christianity into the centre of his power strategy shifting it from a fringe religion into something far more. It enabled him to strip assets from unbelievers and have soft power control over his empire. Rome controlled Europe for centuries without an army - just massive churches as the stage for their priests to preach all built (amazingly) on the donations of the rich and poor. Deep in the Vatican many a chuckle must have been had over how well this worked for a long time.
Certain other "religions", recent and not so recent, have been spawned to tap into this means of control.
The more rigid the ideology and extent to which they try to influence day to day behavior the stronger they are - up to a point. If they are too rigid or at odds with the realities of the world and human psychology and culture as it evolves they can be rejected and crackup and fail. Christianity is relatively flexible and so can evolve relatively well. Long term, the more extreme and inflexible religions will tend to fail but can cause a lot of grief in the process of trying to preserve their power base.
The challenges for Islam will be the internet, mobile phones, increasing power of Muslim wives as they have jobs and earn money in the household and how it does not fit well with capitalism, economic innovation and modern business. This will upset a rules based religion. Economic power into the future (which is now the main source of power) will tend not to gravitate to people or countries who follow it closely (once oil runs out). Their leaders understand this well and are attempting in many ways to fight, sometimes peacefully and sometimes not, against the tides of change.
Great post Frogg. Lucid, balanced, succinct.
I agree with you Zenagain
Frogs post was well thought out and educated answer.
Something for the islamaphobes...
...and the not so optimist-ic
Why do people believe in God?
The short answer is in this well known line - "our father who art in heaven". Kiddies grow up and slowly emerge from the protection of their childhood to face the world and still want a dad to look after them.
Often I have heard religious people say as their fall back position in discussions when the reality of a god seems hard to explain "I don't want to live in a world without a god". This statement quietly and unknowingly gives the game away in that it spells out that they will create a god to worship irrespective of the facts or evidence to satisfy this need.
Watch some of Derren Brown's specials and you will understand how people can use quite simple techniques to make others believe and do some strange things. Ancient Druids, witchdoctors. cult leaders, historical conquerors modern motivational speakers and of course religious leaders all have used these same techniques in varying ways. Not everyone is equally susceptible but those who are can be led to places they would never expect to go until they reach them.
No Islamphobes here sypkan
I can't see meaningful reform happening any time soon as the demographic living in war-torn poverty with little access to education or hope is too large. People cling to whatever ideaology gives them hope and if they are born into horror and told they will have a better life in the next one who wouldn't believe it?
I know only a few muslim countries are at war but the demographic is big enough that extremism will inadvertently always be there. Syria's cooked now there's a whole generation of kids born to be bombers. The Ottomans & the Persians cobbled it together enough for people to live in a functioning society with laws & prospects but I can't see any way out of this now. As indo-dreaming said, we need a modern interpretation of islam that is relevant to today's society. Unfortunately even considering doing that to the Koran gets people heads cut-off by the fundamentalists. There's some pretty violent shit in the old testament too.
Maybe we bring in a new Koran that omits the violent teachings in a peaceful country then try and infiltrate it back to the others? An inquisition?
Gaz, for me and my experience of humanity- your first statement hit the nail on the head, your second, describing an old book as the root cause of human behaviours missed the nail and is straight back on the swollen red thumb.
My understanding of the extremism of Islam is that it has only developed in the last 50 years of intervention into the middle east by the western superpowers. Before then, I would be surprised if you found historic articles on islamic extremism in particular anti-western flavoured extremism. So how did Islam survive for thousands of years without trying to take over the world by bloodshed, or alternatively how did every Muslim avoid being erradicated by another religion?
But I agree whole heartedly that extremist values and attitudes toward the west are now engrained in the minds of so many desperate people living in wartorn countries. I also am aware of the power of resentment in people who are brought up in western societies, but feel like society has let them down and live the inequalities day by day. I can see how resentment brings the evil out in people, just as I see how resentment brings out the evil in myself.
As far as an old book that sets forth both positive and negative guidelines for behaviour, Any such old book can be interpreted in different ways. KKK seemed to have their own flavour on the bible for example. The fact that there is a new testament shows that some people chose to reinstate their values by physically changing the text. I also have met many muslims in my life who might not read violent verses of an old book and decide they are better than any other human being. Blaming religion for our actions is as old as humanity itself.
Well stated yocal. Until humanity remembers it's oneness with itself, it's planet and life, it will face dysfunction.
I agree, I didn't mean to imply that the old books are the cause more of an excuse that extremists have used to hi-jack the religion. A corrupt preacher/imam preaching war & hate is no different to a dictator doing the same thing all in the name of maintaining control.
'Amen' Dave and Gaz,
When I am full of anger and resentment I move toward blaming others. When I am feeling guilty I move toward blaming others. When I feel out of control I become manipulative to regain control.
I don't think my motivations are any different to any other human on this planet. So it is up to me to be mindful of my own anger, resentment , guilt and fear, and make choices not to act on those impulses.
It's funny how we seperate new religions generally as being cults while old religions we just call religions, really they are all based on founders that possibly had mental health issues of some kind, like Imagine these days if someone said they were the son of god.
I would love to have a mate like jesus just to hang around the boat ramp if nothing else.
"According to the Gospel of Luke, Jesus was preaching near the Lake of Genesareth, when he saw two boats at the water's edge. Boarding the one belonging to Simon, and moving out a little from shore, he sat and taught the people from the boat. Afterwards, he said to Peter:
"Put out into deep water, and let down the nets for a catch."
"Master, we've worked hard all night and haven't caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the nets."
When they had done so, "they caught such a large number of fish that their nets began to break," requiring help from another boat. When Peter saw the large catch, which filled both boats almost to sinking point, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" Jesus responded "Don't be afraid; from now on you will catch men," after which Peter and his partners James and John left everything and followed Jesus."
If I bagged out like that I'd probably chuck in my day job and tour the countryside telling everyone about it too!
Gaz ,,They got out of the fishing game because the fisheries officers turned up ,and pulled out the fine book..,Fishing without a licence , in a marine park , using illegal mesh , undersized fish , exceed quota and no turtle exclusion devices. The boat was probably confiscated and sold at auction
Indo,we are all the sons and daughter's of the creator. In fact we were created to be the experience interface for the creator. The common denominator of all enquiry is life,hence even things diametrically opposed have life as it's connectedness. Yeshua Ben Joseph invited us all to treat all things how we would like to be treated because what we transmit,we receive. Notice how the news and politicians all say we need to fight this energy form, and of course a fight is what they get and profit from. Fear controls, love extols.
Another fucked up U.S bombing raid in Syria.
50 civilians dead (at least).
Wont see that on ch9 or read about it in the herald sun.
Hopefully, we can "reform islam" so that they will be happy being bombed for oil.
Wouldn't that be diddly.
Death toll in Syria;
child death toll in Syria;
Really take those numbers in.
Gday mate. Been sending good vibes to you and k. Yeah mate, I go for Beach walk from kingy to caba tomorrow and intently focus on being thankful for my life. I will radiate this out throughout the earthly biosphere irrespective of humanity insanity. Found a little a frame peak that hopefully will share its joy with me.
Hey Dave, if there is a superior being and we are here to serve some purpose in its honour that god thingie has a very warped sense of humour. My question to you is why are we here? everything else on the planet is in balance and us humans just fuck that up Easter Island style.
Why are we here ? George Carlin with an answer to this very question.
Superior being? Guy, you get to answer why you are here? Why ask me? Decide for your self. I have absolute faith in your ability to make a meaning for yourself that works for your self. I have stated many times that this is a virtual reality and like beginning experience on an x box, play station or wee, we fuck up the game cause we don't know how to use the helper's in the game. There is no superior being guy,just the one being that is all that is and all that isn't. It is impossible to live without this in being, but it's not impossible to think that you can't. Two different experiences, one limited, one unlimited. Be unlimited.
Why would we be here to serve some purpose in its honour??? It does not need approval, worship or confirmation. It is, it knows it is, it knows it will always be is. Close your eyes, listen to your breathing and watch the dancing light come out of the darkness. Stay with it and let it be your guidance counselor for it will remind you of why you are here and just maybe guy smiley will evolve into smiley guy.
dave, how is the balance/harmony of everything on the planet reconciled with the destructive nature of humans? So why are we here? Wouldn't the blue planet be better off if we weren't here?
Food for thought , I was in Langkawi, when it first opened up to westerners.. This island was completely shut off from anything mainstream., due to a belief in a curse, however, they had meetings and accepted to look past the bikinis and a bunch of rich drunken wankers in their flash yachts, But when you drove the down the street on a friday you couldn't help but hear how much they wanted you gone
The fact is we are here and we each get to decide who we are in relationship with all things, especially your self. Am I a self that believes the blue planet would be better off without humans? If so why do I deserve not to be here,because I'm a human! Just what is it that I don't like about humans and therefore myself
All enquiry is ultimately self inquiry. Who am i,how do I feel about what I perceive to be happening. Google Dr Len Hew and Honolulu psychiatric ward for one amazing example of the projection of the seperated self. Remember I know this is virtual earth and I am here to accept and appreciate, even the grotesque distorted shadows of humanity on the cave wall. I will remember though to turn towards and be guided by the light and warmth of the eternal fire. Besides in a parallel virtual reality planet earth is human free. Gotta drop the human earth suit to visit though, nanoo nanoo.
Love your work Dave , but you might want to ease up on those disco biscuits, and licking cane toads ,,, cheers
Oh cmon mate, a bloke has to have some fun. Be light hearted and don't take life to serious. Every one who spends an incarnation here dies of something.
Sounds like Dave has some good weed happening on his spiritual journey. Its simple really, Jesus made everything, came to visit for a while as one of us, did miracles like bring dead people back to life etc, told everyone not to be someone's master but servant instead. Told his own old testament priesthood they were a bunch of jerks who had no idea what God was really like. This got him nailed to the cross which he planned from the start. The creators flesh and blood life, for the created, the innocent for the guilty, the judge paying the fine for the convicted friend. He loves us that much. He is waiting to connect with you...talk to him today and start the friendship whether on the land in a quiet place or on the sea in his creation, you will not be disappointed, its a friendship which is eternal ,spiritual and defies death itself. Read the new testament and get it straight from the book. Its a good read....I also recently watched Ian McCormacks original 1988 story again on You Tube. Ian is a kiwi surfer who died in Mauritius from 5 box jelly stings while night diving with the local creoles. His story of the experience is not to be missed. We hear from the New Testament that Jesus was Glorified after His resurrection so he sounds pretty shiny and awesome but Ian describes what glorified means a little better when he saw Him in person before waking up back in the morgue at the hospital.
Guysmiley : "Wouldn't the blue planet be better off if we weren't here ?"
Please tell me you're not another fruitcake that thinks the world is a museum exhibit and that humans should remain standing behind the handrail and be content to observe the " deserving " inhabitants as they go about their business ?
PS - The business of the " deserving " inhabitants is ripping each other apart with tooth and claw and consuming the remains at each and every opportunity, if you hadn't noticed. Not that dissimilar to humanity really , of course , as we are all parts of the same whole called Nature.
Those stats are pretty insane when you actually take them in. If the shoe were on the other foot and it were Australia/UK/USA/anyone occupied and bombed to smithereens by a foreigner or a rogue government propped up by foreigners there'd be no going back. So I guess the middle-east will be the same. There's no coming back from this now.
If people over there weren't extremist terrorists/ultra nationalists/freedom fighters/jihadists etc etc before then they are now. Nothing clears your vision better than having your house bombed while your whole family is still inside.
Sheepdog - Who is responsible for the vast majority of the killings though ?
True that Blowin, heaps of Christians in the middle east that are also getting affected by war, but you don't here many accounts of Christians strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up people so they get their quote of virgins in the afterlife.
I have mixed feeling about Islam, sometimes i find myself protecting it as i see others just judge it and muslims so harshly or just no real understanding of islam or muslims.
I mean i have many muslim friends in Indonesia and Australia and most just call themselves muslims but may go to a mosque maybe once a year if they are lucky, many drink, one muslim friend in Australia decided to celebrate Christmas last year for the first time, even got a Christmas tree and bought presents, more just for her daughter as all her daughters friends were doing it, but she still would never eat pork or pat/touch a dog, but then i have other muslims friends that have dogs as pets (muslims believe dogs are dirty, and technically if one touches or licks them they need to wash it so many times and prey or something )
I think the thing most Australians forget is, just like how Christians come in all shades of extremes from born again preaching ones who don't drink or have sex before marriage etc and go to church every week, there is also those that call themselves Christian that don't go to church, drink, even do drugs etc...its the same with muslims.
But yeah that said all religions suck and Islam is up towards the top of the list.
@blowin, no fruitcake no museum but the question remains if we fuck up so much why are we here when everything else is in balance. no other species has the potential to totally ruin it like we are doing.
@dave, i get all that inner self stuff, what you say is true, but my question is valid.
I know what you're saying Guy, I sometimes walk around thinking that in a few thousand years (or sooner), human's impact on the planet could well be erased - a visitor might look around and be none the wiser.
Guysmiley - Tailor , amongst other species of fish , will feed till full then vomit and continue feeding.
Wasps take other insects as live hosts for their young.
Cuckoo birds will remove and destroy the eggs of other birds whilst replacing them with their own eggs to be raised by the owners of the nest.
Cats of many species will kill for fun , as will other predators.
Penguins steal the eggs of other members of the flock or will purposefully trample the young of rivals.
Sharks and some reptiles will eat their own young.
Dolphins are renown for their pack rape tendencies.
Orcas will kill a whale just to consume its tongue and discard the rest of the animal.
Imagine if these animals had the wherewithal to develop nuclear technology !
Humans and their idiosyncrasies are an intrinsic segment of the web of life. Any perceived foibles of mankind are a part of their inherent nature.
You might not like it , it might not be aesthetically pleasing and it might not appear beneficial on a superficial level , but each and every action that man undertakes is natural and of natures grand scheme.
Blowin, further back up the thread, you asked me a question, but also answered it lol
"Sheepdog - Who is responsible for the vast majority of the killings though ? Muslims"
Well just put aside for one moment that we, the "allies", have supplied the rebels with arms, therefore aiding these muslims you speak of to do the killing.
We'll also put aside Trumps recent 1.4 BILLION dollar arms deal to Saudi Arabia, which of course will be handed onto the rebels and ISIS.
So far in Syria, as of the 4/6/2017, the Allies/coalition have performed 9184 air strikes, with a total of 34910 bombs/missiles dropped.
In just the last 11 air strikes, Amnesty International have reported 300 civilian deaths.
300/11 = 27.27 deaths per air strike.
Lets be conservative and round it down to 10 per air strike, as obviously some coalition targets would be "in the field".
With a total of 9184 air strikes x 10, that equates to 91840 dead civilians by allied air strikes alone.
The terrorism will continue, until people are less interested in "Britains got talent", and more interested in what their government's are doing. This sort of death toll would NOT have been acceptable back in the 1970s, when for example the media were allowed to honestly report on the carnage in Vietnam. Everything is now washed clean for the masses.
Fully agree , Sheepdog.
Doesn't render our Muslim ideologues innocent though , does it ?
If you believe that the resurgence in Muslim pride and it's desire for recognition,respect and statehood doesn't weigh into current events at all then maybe check out what's been going on in Thailand , Myanmar , Sri Lanka , Phillipines and Western China BEFORE the advent of the unifying effects of the internet that is now bringing all of these insurgencies under a similar banner.
nick, why are you so worried about what muslims want to believe in? how many people have been killed in australia in the name of god? what is the point of judging how other people in other countries want to live. why do you care if a iranian husband kills his wife? what is it our business? or are you saying that muslims in australia are out of touch with the 21st century and somehow a threat to you?
I had a great big ranty comment before but it hasn't appeared. So in brief - I agree with you Indo! I used to be a straight up apologist. This came from a real place, as not a single Muslim I know was in any way a threat to me, my life, or anything but a lovely person. For much of the last decade I've been surrounded by Muslims every day. It's no different to being surrounded by anybody else for the most part.
But lately I've been surprising myself with my gut reactions to things. So many troubling things are happening in Indonesia right now, directly to do with the way certain Muslims are interpreting Islam. Ahok's arrest should be of great concern to Australia, and it's an absolute tragedy for Jakarta. The day it happened many Indonesians I saw openly wept (I was in Jogja at the time) and were completely fearful. The footage of children marching down the street in Kampung Melayu singing "Kill Ahok" while waving an IS flag, the suicide bombing in the same area, the footage of the young child being bullied and abused by grown men for insulting an Islamic figure, two young men being whipped with canes for being gay while crowds of men cheer them on, a state sponsored LGBTI taskforce in West Java, continued church and temple burnings, Ahmadiyah and other minority Islamic sects having their villages razed and being beaten to death, the relative impunity with which fundamentalists such as FPI can break the laws of the country in the name of the way they interpret Islamic law, videos abound of FPI trashing warung and resto that are open during Ramadan, the continuing banning of alcohol across Java, the banning of alcohol full stop during Ramadan outside of five star hotels. Even Jogja, once such a syncretic place, is becoming more and more conservative. A friend at UGM, one of the most prestigious and progressive universities in the country, was deeply shocked when two new rektors refused to shake his hand as they believe that they can not touch a man. This would have been unthinkable in years past. And of course, ISIS recently taking over parts of Mindanao could not have happened without the strong contingent of Indonesians there with them.
So many things happening that are adding up to a very scary time ahead for Indonesia. This is not me being scared either, but there are a great many people in Indonesia at the moment very worried about what's happening to tolerance in this country.
Indo - your thoughts on this? http://thediplomat.com/2017/05/stop-calling-indonesia-a-role-model-its-s...
Optimist prime, no weed mate, just a transformation of the truths of being. Any religion or regime that suppress any human freedom will be dysfunctional. I can empathize with all the view points here but we don't need just to reform Islam but also our basic understanding of how we all fit into the unified field of existence.
Scary stuff re. Indonesia from dandandan. But as a fellow apologist, I will point out that the article is written by a christian, which brings a certain perspective - both good and bad.
Having said that, it is just downright scary how quickly the ahok thing turned into a significant jail term.
Of more concern though (to the non surfing population anyway) is how the west has lost control of much more than just the narrative, as shown by this little 2 minutes of inadvertant disclosure from khan. He stubbornly tries to disclose nothing, as per usual....but all to no avail
Trumps a fuckwit, but these morons and their semantics of silence haven't managed to keep anything in check.
How the hell the west allowed 'no go zones' to develop in their major cities beggars belief.
Fuck the human rights lawyers! Those cunts need to take a good hard look at themselves and their contributions to this situation.
Sort out these messed up communities now, one way or another...thats if its already not too late.
Dandan...good read. Add this to the Middle East problems and now Europe, we (in Aus) will invariably get caught in this. The key will be to be certain no Muslim country has nuclear weapons. As the way ISIS there is no mercy for any, that's any human being.