House prices

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Blowin started the topic in Friday, 9 Dec 2016 at 10:27am

House prices - going to go up , down or sideways ?

Opinions and anecdotal stories if you could.

Cheers

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velocityjohnno Monday, 13 Mar 2023 at 3:26pm

You gotta admit that would be a pretty sweet gig being a chief risk officer and like Luke's shot on the death star there is a certain rare scenario that blows you up and no one sees it so you just continue to bank coin.

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velocityjohnno Monday, 13 Mar 2023 at 3:32pm

OK, is this the fix coming in?

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/03/how-the-us-bailed-out-the-banks...

shoutout to Flollo, who said this would keep happening. So quickly!
Oh yeah it says they euthanised another NY bank as part of it.

Feeling euphoric now, so I'll link this. Not so much because of the title (although it's having big moves) but more so the bit about always believing in yourself (ie - be confident! Things are good!):

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gsco Monday, 13 Mar 2023 at 7:32pm

They didn't mess around. Even backed all uninsured deposits. Being able to pledge collateral at par (face value) in the new financing facility is interesting.

And HSBC has agreed to buy SVB's UK arm for a whopping £1. Would love to see some more details of the UK arm's financials.

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kaiser Monday, 13 Mar 2023 at 9:28pm

The 18th biggest bank is too big to fail? Actually, scrap that… Signature bank is also too big to fail… and it’s 29th biggest.

I am certain if the profile of the depositors was different, this would’ve played out very differently. This is gfc 2.0. My god they’re crooked.

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donweather Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 3:09pm

What I don't understand is how can they (US Gov) say that all deposits will be covered and this won't cost the US taxpayers a cent? Are they just creating the $200B out of thin air?

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monkeyboy Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 4:19pm
donweather wrote:

What I don't understand is how can they (US Gov) say that all deposits will be covered and this won't cost the US taxpayers a cent? Are they just creating the $200B out of thin air?

Good explanation here: https://wolfstreet.com/2023/03/12/silicon-valley-banks-uninsured-deposit...

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gsco Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 4:29pm

To start with the FDIC guarantees all deposits up to $250k by operating as a US government run pretty stock standard insurance company. So its funding is insurance premiums paid by member banks and other institutions. This covers a very large portion of depositors.

Secondly, in response to SVB the govt just set up a new funding facility called the Bank Term Funding Program (BTFP) which enables banks and other institutions to take out 1yr loans with the Fed (what they call the discount window) via pledging as security bonds, mortgage backed securities and some other eligible instruments. The Fed does just create money out of thin air for this, just like QE. Borrowers have to pay interest on these 1yr loans though.

This will pretty well cover all deposits. There may technically be some that are still not covered, but it seems that things are “all good” for now.

Edit: The specifics of the handling of SVB and Signature are well detailed in the Wolf Street article.

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donweather Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 5:13pm

For instance Circle (Crypto stable coin USDC) had well over $250k of deposits, so I don't understand how they're covered without taxpayers forking out something? Interesting that the US Gov would just print to cover these significant USDC deposits (talking billions here).

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gsco Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 6:17pm

This is specific to the winding up or sale of SVB.

The FDIC is basically acting as an administrator and liquidator of SVB, is still trying to find a buyer for it, and runs it as a “bridge bank” pretty well as per normal in the meantime.

Any loss incurred by the FDIC in the process of making all depositor funds available while resolving the issue will be recovered by a “special assessment on banks” which basically means charging the banking sector higher insurance premiums in its role as a deposit insurance company.

https://www.fdic.gov/news/press-releases/2023/pr23019.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fdic-planning-another-svb-auction-d63c8929

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/monetary20230312...

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donweather Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 6:58pm
gsco wrote:

This is specific to the winding up or sale of SVB.

The FDIC is basically acting as an administrator and liquidator of SVB, is still trying to find a buyer for it, and runs it as a “bridge bank” pretty well as per normal in the meantime.

Any loss incurred by the FDIC in the process of making all depositor funds available while resolving the issue will be recovered by a “special assessment on banks” which basically means charging the banking sector higher insurance premiums in its role as a deposit insurance company.

https://www.fdic.gov/news/press-releases/2023/pr23019.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fdic-planning-another-svb-auction-d63c8929

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/monetary20230312...

So other banks fork out the bill essentially to pay for a fcked up bank

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monkeyboy Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 7:14pm

Interestingly the FDIC invests in Treasury Notes...oops.

I'll try to find the link but they dont have enough cash to cover all the deposits because of the losseson the treasury notes - lots of banks, money market funds and so on in the same position.

The FED is offering loans to cover these losses until such time the bonds mature.

Its not good.

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gsco Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 7:36pm

yes correct Don. It's not a bad solution really.

And since the FDIC is continuing to operate SVB as a going concern (for the time being), with all deposits fully backed and everyone's accounts open and fully accessible, not everyone will necessarily feel the need to withdraw their deposits.

Not sure of the numbers here in terms of how many people have stayed put. Lots of articles reassuring people that their money is safe:

https://time.com/6262567/money-safe-silicon-valley-bank/

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/13/what-the-svb-and-signature-crashes-mean-...

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/silicon-valley-bank-17834904...

@monkeyboy, as per the FDIC's financial report, it has a large holding of US treasuries (as per its function as an insurance company):

but all of which are relatively low duration (relatively short maturity), with half maturing within one year, and they have only a relatively very small unrealised loss:

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Jelly Flater Tuesday, 14 Mar 2023 at 8:32pm

https://m.

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monkeyboy Wednesday, 15 Mar 2023 at 9:21am
gsco wrote:

yes correct Don. It's not a bad solution really.

but all of which are relatively low duration (relatively short maturity), with half maturing within one year, and they have only a relatively very small unrealised loss:

Plenty of losses there. I imagine many insurance companies are in the same boat, remember this is exactly what happened with the UK Gilts albeit temporarily. Its not enough to cover all the insured deposits in the US banking system. It shouldnt have to be as you'd assume not all the banks would go broke.

There will be repercussions.

I removed my money from Schwab US a few months back because of the state of the US banking system. Not out of any paranoia just a general trend in the US to lock people out of their funds (like being unable to sell any holdings in Russian companies).

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flollo Wednesday, 15 Mar 2023 at 10:17pm

This is a good one, some of these numbers are strong. No major crisis yet.

‘The APRA publication also reports on the volume of housing loans that are non-performing (or 90-plus days past due), as well as loans where payments are late by 30-89 days. In the December quarter of 2022, the total portion of loans with late repayments sat near record lows of 1.01%. This increased from 0.98% in the previous quarter, led by a slight uptick in the volume of loans that were 30-89 days past due (from 0.3% to 0.4%).’

https://www.corelogic.com.au/news-research/news/2023/apra-release-shows-...

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donweather Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47am
flollo wrote:

This is a good one, some of these numbers are strong. No major crisis yet.

‘The APRA publication also reports on the volume of housing loans that are non-performing (or 90-plus days past due), as well as loans where payments are late by 30-89 days. In the December quarter of 2022, the total portion of loans with late repayments sat near record lows of 1.01%. This increased from 0.98% in the previous quarter, led by a slight uptick in the volume of loans that were 30-89 days past due (from 0.3% to 0.4%).’

https://www.corelogic.com.au/news-research/news/2023/apra-release-shows-...

I think mortgage repayments (or lack of) are one of the last things to be gauging a crisis on. First signs are radical drop in discretionary spending along with a surplus of second hand items going up for sale. Such as second hand cars, caravans etc, toys like jet skis, slowing of holiday bookings particularly overseas, and even things like big Fck off second hand tvs. People will flog off a lot of things and not book future holidays etc before they start missing mortgage repayments.

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donweather Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:52am

Check out the very interesting graph in this article.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2023/03/16/rate-hikes-households-bank...

Makes it all the more clearer now why US banks are feeling the pinch way more than Aussie banks.

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campbell Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:52am
donweather's picture
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donweather Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:58am

Dead Cat Bounce IMO.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2023/03/15/property-pric...

Key here is current stability in prices is being led my lack of supply. Once supply goes up prices will continue to drop even more so once people coming off fixed mortgages into huge jump in variable rates will have no choice but to sell the air bnb or holiday house or investment property.

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donweather Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:09pm

Also a very well written and articulated article on how SVB died.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-13/why-the-collapse-of-silicon-valle...

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frog Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 1:07pm

All is well.
ZH
Breaking from a Credit Suisse employee: “panic, meltdowns, people crying.”

Then SNB bailout.

But
" this is a last-ditch liquidity infusion, and all it does is prevent forced asset liquidations (a la SVB). Meanwhile it does nothing to halt the depositor flight because once trust is broken, it rarely returns."

Contagion risk ....

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freeride76 Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 1:17pm
donweather wrote:

Key here is current stability in prices is being led my lack of supply.

And continuing high demand.

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flollo Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 1:48pm
freeride76 wrote:
donweather wrote:

Key here is current stability in prices is being led my lack of supply.

And continuing high demand.

Plenty of demand in my area. One of the neighbours put their house on the market and it was sold a week later. Other one also put it on the market and had an inspection last Saturday. The street was full of people.

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freeride76 Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 1:56pm

my mate in RE reckons 5% down to flat here and we are at the bottom, will bump along prob this year but if RBA drops a rate cut he reckons will go ballistic as FOMO buyers trying to time the bottom of the market and high demand from immigration in the cities combine.

we'll see.

barely skimmed the cream off the pandemic rises, that's for sure.

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AndyM Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 6:00pm

He's saying another 5% drop max?
Ex-neighbour is selling in the mid to high 2's.
Down a bit from the crazy peak but he's had heaps of interest in the past three weeks since it's been on the market with a few genuine non-tyre kickers.

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kaiser Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 9:00pm
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AndyM Thursday, 16 Mar 2023 at 10:42pm

"“Last year there were six properties listed below $700,000 across the shire’s main towns and villages."

What, pre-fabs in van villages?

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freeride76 Friday, 17 Mar 2023 at 6:40am

Believe the local knowledge Kaiser.

my mate is still up there 3 days a week cheffing for the Hemsworths. They're going nowhere.

And the 3 bed brick and tile lego box just around the corner that last went to market in 2019 for 800000 just sold for 1.3 million.

These things I definitely know to be true.

Spec homes made by builders for price on tiny blocks on the wrong side of the hill are easy enough to come by but if you want a house on a nice block you'll be in a queue with cashed up Boomers paying overs.

Averages in Northern Rivers, of course, have been dragged right down by massive floods where anything underwater has to be sold at a discount. Still over what it was pre-pandemic.
Even the most flood prone Lismore dumps are getting sold to investors looking to cash in on high rents and housing shortages.

Nothing has changed in the fundamental equation: high demand, not enough supply.

Backpackers have now returned at pre-pandemic levels and they also need a roof- not all can live in their vans because the demand for labour is still so high.

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kaiser Friday, 17 Mar 2023 at 8:08am

Fair enough FR, was more of a ‘opinions are like arseholes’ jibe. Personally I’m noticing an uptick in props for sale (funny how our own little bubble shapes our macro view). As you say, the good ones have a queue lined up for them. But most of what’s coming on is not A grade stuff. Usual flight to quality or at least sticky demand for good product that happens at this part of the cycle. Will see how it goes from here, but the impact on lending capacity will have to come to pass eventually, once all those with cash dwindle down.

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freeride76 Friday, 17 Mar 2023 at 8:29am

TBH, I think the RBA has played it pretty well- they were late to move and have raised much less than our peers (NZ for eg) which has kept full employment and just taken some steam out of demand until supply issues are resolved.

If they cut later this year it'll go bang-o again, but this time with more capacity in supply and labour.

Just my opinion, we'll see.

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nickca Friday, 17 Mar 2023 at 8:34am

FR…You don’t need to be to be a boomer to be cashed up, but you know that.From what I observe plenty of cashed up media personalities and yuppy(if that’s still a term) types in the queue as well.Queue the Painters and Dockers.

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flollo Friday, 17 Mar 2023 at 10:02am
kaiser wrote:

Fair enough FR, was more of a ‘opinions are like arseholes’ jibe. Personally I’m noticing an uptick in props for sale (funny how our own little bubble shapes our macro view). As you say, the good ones have a queue lined up for them. But most of what’s coming on is not A grade stuff. Usual flight to quality or at least sticky demand for good product that happens at this part of the cycle. Will see how it goes from here, but the impact on lending capacity will have to come to pass eventually, once all those with cash dwindle down.

This is a good observation. Although I follow the market regularly I often don’t even look at the property unless it’s high quality (and there’s a fair bit of subjectivity here though). One thing I definitely did notice is that it’s is much harder to sell a crappy property for outrageous amounts of money. Those shittier ones have definitely come down in value. Part of it could be the realisation that getting labor/materials to conduct upgrades and fixes is very expensive and hard to come by.

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flollo Saturday, 18 Mar 2023 at 9:46am
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Standingleft Sunday, 19 Mar 2023 at 4:35pm
gsco wrote:
- "But they're doing the restructuring right now when we may possibly be close to the top of the interest rate cycle"
Like many it seems, we're looking to lock in our mortgage (not too big luckily) so i've come to Swellnet for clear thinking and honest opinion on global finance.
iheartSN
GSCO - top of the cycle? We've decided on 2 years but it's like playing lotto. Do you think we would get a better deal in 2 years time? Complicated question I know and I won't hold you to anything just curious if you or anyone has any intel that might help? Seems folk are expecting another finance roller coaster sometime soon
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dandandan Sunday, 19 Mar 2023 at 9:03pm
freeride76 wrote:

TBH, I think the RBA has played it pretty well- they were late to move and have raised much less than our peers (NZ for eg) which has kept full employment and just taken some steam out of demand until supply issues are resolved.

If they cut later this year it'll go bang-o again, but this time with more capacity in supply and labour.

Just my opinion, we'll see.

I don't have a perspective on this other than that it's really hard to swallow that RBA millionaires make decisions that ruin lives, and generally all we do is take a big picture view of it and decide whether it was good or not. Rate rises have been a nightmare for my friends and family with mortgages - full cliche things like kids not getting new shoes or winter uniforms, not going on excursions, sleepless nights, third jobs, relying on charities, stealing from supermarkets. I've been hit up more for money in the last two months than in the last 10 years. Conversely I've listened to wealthy losers talking about how they're making more money now than before rate rises. Australia is a fucking nightmare.

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mattlock Sunday, 19 Mar 2023 at 9:14pm

Havn't you heard the news dandandan.
The wealthy are the winners!
Every one else is a patsy.

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flollo Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 10:35am
donweather's picture
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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 11:56am

Is the $2b funded by their central bank at all? Otherwise who’s gonna pay $2b for a failed bank? UBS have shares? If so will be interesting to see their shareholders reaction to this bailout.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-20/ubs-backed-by-swiss-authorities-t...

It’s actually $3b or maybe that’s AUD in the article above?

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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 12:25pm

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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 12:57pm

A long read but very interesting.

https://cryptohayes.medium.com/kaiseki-b15230bdd09e

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udo Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 2:55pm
donweather's picture
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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 3:17pm
udo wrote:

Still For Sale..First listed Dec 2021
https://www.realestate.com.au/property-residential+land-qld-caloundra+we...

I think they’ve lowered their price expectations at least haven’t they?

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Sprout Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 3:52pm

Pretty obvious why it hasn't sold, who'd want to live in the Aura.

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flollo Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 4:50pm

These developments look very soul-sucking to me, I would never buy a house there.

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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 5:00pm
Sprout wrote:

Pretty obvious why it hasn't sold, who'd want to live in the Aura.

Clearly some people do!!

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velocityjohnno Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 5:59pm

Could this be the 'choose the form of your destructor'?

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/03/how-us-finanical-crisis-contagi...

Interesting points on bank exposure, A-REIT exposure, and super fund exposure. Anyone remember 1990-4?

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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 6:30pm
velocityjohnno wrote:

Anyone remember 1990-4?

Uh huh!!!

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velocityjohnno Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 6:36pm
donweather wrote:

A long read but very interesting.

https://cryptohayes.medium.com/kaiseki-b15230bdd09e

Thank you Don, what a great read. He takes complex events and structures and makes them easily understandable and does so with consecutive logic. I might physically print a handful of articles a year, and this is one of them.

It's a great wrap-up of what just broke.

To charty people, have a gawk at the US 5yr, US 10yr and gold in AUD...

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donweather Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 7:58pm
velocityjohnno wrote:
donweather wrote:

A long read but very interesting.

https://cryptohayes.medium.com/kaiseki-b15230bdd09e

Thank you Don, what a great read. He takes complex events and structures and makes them easily understandable and does so with consecutive logic. I might physically print a handful of articles a year, and this is one of them.

It's a great wrap-up of what just broke.

To charty people, have a gawk at the US 5yr, US 10yr and gold in AUD...

Twas wonderfully articulated and explained easily hey!!!

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Craig Monday, 20 Mar 2023 at 8:08pm

Wow I just semi digested that article. It's crazy what the US has just funded/allowed.