Digging deeper beyond the lies and clichés, Nauru, Manus, refugees, border control
I agree Fozza. We could, and should, do a lot more.
So what do you suggest , Fozza ?
"..I think we should prioritise those whose countries we have so thoroughly destabilised ....... Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria."
I think we should too.
Actually I think we did. Remember way way back when one of our PMs from the liberals (it really is difficult to keep track of which one...possibly even abbott, but Im thinking turdball) promised places for syrians. Something like 2500 places. And two years on and australia had settled about 20. Now there is something for advocates to bang on about!
The fact that turdball/abbott gained so much public cred. with a big announcement like that, then absolutely failed to follow through. That's what advocates should be banging on about, but no, they're all caught up the petty day to day domestic power struggle that allows the bigger picture to run wild, virtually unchecked.
A lot like the wider refugee debate....
The syria position was an absolute win/win for the PR wing of the liberal party...not sure about anyone else though...
You hear a lot about queue jumpers and processing but where are the processing centres and therefore the queues? Could be wrong here I haven't heard about processing centres anywhere in our region, so is it really a myth that refugees can be orderly processed in a queue?
@Indo, there is no doubting your enthusiasm for this topic over a long period of time but equally I've got this unanswered question, why? Why spend countless hours on here prosecuting the case against, what's in it for you? Genuine question/no disrespect implied or intended but are you having a hard time trying to get some of your in-laws family into the country? Mates of mine had to wait years and years to get the visas etc.
From the chat with Riz Wakil in other story:
Why didn't you apply for citizenship or even a temporary protection visa in Aghanistan?
Unfortunately things are not as easy as some people think that they are. There is no processing centre in Afghanistan so there is no queue. Also, there is no processing centre in Pakistan, or Iran, or Iraq. In all these troubled part of the world there is no queue to join.
I used to get very upset when people asked me this question and when people called me a queue jumper. But now I think that they just dont know. They don't know the reality on the ground. I explain it like this - if a house is on fire, the fire brigade do not ask people to line up in a queue and wait for their turn to come out through the door. They tell people to smash a window or break down a wall to get away from the fire. That's exactly the same scenario as us. People who are desperate they dont have anywhere to go. The so-called queue...it does not exist. It does not exist in Afghanistan. That's the reality about the queue.
Myself, like others, deperately needed protection to live a life of freedom. That's the case with the majority of boat people.
@Guy
I honestly don't know 100% why, I think the interest began just because it ties in with Indonesia, it's kind of an Indonesian-Australia topic, I follow Indonesia media like Jakarta post and Jakarta globe and i see aspects reported in there that are also never reported in Australia.
I think it's just one of those things, you take an interest in something, you dig a bit deeper and then you gain more interest.
But i think the more i dig the more my interest turned to frustration.
More just frustrated by how the whole issue is presented and talked about in Australia with extreme views either way and i really believe that 99% of people have little to no understanding of the topic and the bigger picture.
@ Stunet
Yes you can't claim asylum or refugee status until you are out of the country Aghanistan in this case.
But the majority of refugees from Aghanistan would go to the nearest refugee camps etc where they can then apply to be resettled with the UNHCR, they would do this because in most cases thats their only choice, they don't have the resources to do anything else.
Every Australia embassy in the world also can do applications for resettlement.
Also the application process can be done online.
All these options are cheaper and easier than traveling halfway across the world and paying people smugglers thousands of dollars.
People always say there is no queue .....but reality is there kind of is, there is already millions of refugees who have applied to be resettled waiting to be resettled, yeah okay it's not a queue as such where first to apply gets processed first, it's more in a lottery style, you could apply today and be processed next week, next month, next year, in five years, ten year, or maybe your number will never come up.
People like him may or may not know this, obviously and rightly so they only care about themselves and loved ones so do what they can to find a better life, if they are lucky enough to have the resources to travel and pay people smugglers then thats what they need to do.
That said i don't think people like him should be blamed or demonised, its no different to someone avoiding tax its not them that should be blamed for reducing or completely avoiding their tax.
It's the system that should be blamed, you close the loopholes so tax can't be avoided.
Or you close the loopholes so people can't by pass the resettlement process in place.
With the ultimate goal being a system where everyone is treated the same, fairly and equally, no matter if you are a dirt poor Sudan refugee or a fair well off Syrian refugee.
Resettlement in Utopia Indo?
@Sypkan
The last of the 12,000 refugees: Syrians and Iraqis build new lives in Australia
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-31/settling-12000-refugees-syria-ira...
Indo. Do you know where the nearest unhcr camps are to Afghanistan, and how many refugees have fled to those two countries, and what those two countries are doing with the resulting burden of refugees because other countries deny their passage?
Once good but now great thread indo...
More insight than a 4 corners episode.
Open minded but forthright comments are the genuine articles.
Doublethink the whole dumb deal... Always on the run has to make one street wise.
Stu's example of yellow brick road to salvation...lined with bigger evils than you escaped.
Camp supplies are only as safe as the road in! Ambush killings on all supply routes.
Detour from road to hell & people smugglers only want your money.Finally some nice guys!
Hard road to travel let alone being born into such hell.
Goes without saying that we send Peace & Love!
@HappyasS
Id assume most refugees from Afghanistan go to Pakistan where the guy in Stunets article mentions he went.
Yes it's not perfect I've read Pakistian wants them moved on.
No one is suggesting anything is perfect.
But end of the day we can only do what we can at our end, which is support the fairness and most equal system for resettling refugees as possible.
BTW. on the prioritisation of resettlement of refugees.
IMHO our priority should be with those that are expected to always be refugees, those that are stateless or for some reason will never be able to return home.
Rather than resettle refugees, who's situation may or does change in the future, like war or famine ends.
Temporary protection would be a much better option for those people as in a sense once things become safe again one spot is kind of wasted.
As one person is no longer a refugee but the other person that is stateless etc is still a refugee if that makes sense.
Indo. That's right. It's probably their preferred choice tbh. I don't think moving to Australia is anyone's optimal go to solution unless you really see zero chance to ever return home. Problem is that with up 2.5 million afghan refugees in Pakistan their breeding themselves quicker than the unhcr can repatriate them. It's about a 0.4% repatriation rate on my maths so it's hopeless when you look at the numbers. 3rd generation refugees is typical.
No answers here myself. But this is completely broken. I'm all for unhcr but the numbers don't stack up and it's Australias responsibility as much as others to find a better outcome. I don't believe Australia is doing as much as it could do but that's debatable.
Good tgread. Hopefully it doesn't get uncivilized.
Sweet baby Jesus, how's this thread??
Reading through it, I'm left with the same question as Guy Smiley:
"@Indo, there is no doubting your enthusiasm for this topic over a long period of time but equally I've got this unanswered question, why? Why spend countless hours on here prosecuting the case against, what's in it for you?"
Your reply, Indo Dreamin':
"@Guy I honestly don't know 100% why..."
and:
"I think it's just one of those things, you take an interest in something, you dig a bit deeper and then you gain more interest."
Maybe, just maybe, Indo Dreamin', you should do a bit more digging into your own 'why' there, mate?
Honestly.
Actually, I'm sure you can chew gum and walk at the same time, Indo Dreamin'.
So, how's about Tony Shepherd and Transfield? I'm sure that's turned up in your extensive investigations. Wild, hey?
Also, your considered opinion on the so-called 'Malaysia solution'? Were Abbott and Morrison - and a tearful Hockey...remember? - right or wrong?
At first i thought the Malaysian solution was crazy idea that made no sense, then latter after thinking about it, i think it made complete sense.
I think it's a pity it didn't get a chance. (yes obviously Liberals feared it would work)
I think combined with boat turn backs it would actually be the best type of system possible, it would actually mean we could get rid of Manus, Nauru even Xmas island and keep everyone happy.
If you want to jump to wrongful conclusions on why i have an interest in this topic that's up to you.
"...If you want to jump to wrongful conclusions on why i have an interest in this topic that's up to you."
It's interesting that they always do assume the worst in people's intentions.
How could you spend years in indo on and around boats and not have an interest in this topic?
I've met a few kooky captains around the place (kooky eccentric that is) and they often have great insights on this topic. They know more than anyone. Or they tell less lies, one of the two.
That's the guy
He's pretty clued in for a pisshead
Well Indo dreamcones
Since you are the resident expert on Nauru how dare I tell you you know fuck all about it.
Or should I tell you what I know after having been immersed in refugee life on the island as well as local life for Six months.
The truth about Nauru and their people farming slavery is Fucking disgusting, paid by your taxes.
But what would I know as an Anthropologist about life on the island right?
I think the countries that our Australian guys go to and shed their blood to try and give the people freedom. I think those people maybe need to stay home and fight for their own freedom too, especially the men, instead of running away. If it were Australia and crazy armed factions were killing and bombing people we would fight like fury until freedom was restored. We would not leave our country. As Winston Churchill said " We will never surrender...Never". Also, (Google) and read Churchills famous speech on Mohammadism.
@Underdownunder
You are obviously quite welcome to share your view, maybe it differs from the views of Nauruan locals? (who don't have agendas either way)
But to be honest, seeing you are not a regular poster, I'm just going to assume you are someone else that has created a different profile and has never been to Nauru before.
(maybe you can provide a link to a previous post of yours here to help give me confidence you didn't just make the profile up last night)
Did you come across asylum seekers trapped in prostitution on Nauru?
Like those from Africa trying to get to Europe that don't get very far before their funds run out, turn to prostitution and get trapped in a cycle of debt to a pimp who scams them. (sorry i can't find the docco that had this in it)
Or maybe the husbands in refugee camps like Jordan who sell their wives into prostitution?
https://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/desperate-syrian-women-in-jordan-tu...
Or those refugees stuck in Indonesia who run out of money and turn to prostitution?
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5317234/refugees-in-indon-sell...
Plenty more links and stories and articles on this issue especially from refugees in Athens, Greece, Germany.
Wouldn't at all be a stretch to assume children are also bought and sold or forced into prostitution to provided money for the parents, as we know very well children are often used as pawns even in the west.
Yes I did create another profile after receiving some fucked up replies to another thread.
If you think the Naruan govt don't have an agenda then you are tripping.
For decades the successive corrupt govts of Nauru have fucked over their own people. It ain't all white man's fault.
So you would be happy to send your kids to a school where they are the victims of torment and ridicule on a daily basis. Hit by the teachers, urinated on by fellow students, had all their pencils snapped, their lunch stolen. Beaten up?
Would you be happy to live knowing the police can break your arms for sport and then laugh about as if it's normal. When your life is regarded as lower than the swine that roam the island.
Your feel good bullshit about new schools and hospitals , well I helped build the Shit boxes out of old dongas from the desert. Rusting into the ground before they even open. Roofs leaking hard. Air-con systems That Won't stand a salt environment.
I could go on for days about how fucked up that joint is. ie convicted rapists in the police force.
The refugees are slaves to the Naruans people farming income stream.
Disgraceful
Want more facts about that fucked up island?
Inzider ?
All quiet on the Western Front...
Incoming > > > { Racist/bigoted/colonialist Les Tin Tin Cartoon } > > >[Duck and Cover]
Jihad declared on vile warmonger Captain Haddock!
Peace splattered !
[Swellnet Asylum Camp Evacuation]
Sillyseasonings to all!
@ Inzider
I said "Nauruan locals don't have an agenda" not Nauruan Government if you look through my post, you will see i agree both Australian and Nauruan governments have agendas, it's a two way deal that works for both.
End of the day though, being realistic both governments want things to run as smoothly as possible and don't want negative incidents to happen, why do you think they went from housing people in a centre to housing people in the community with all the same rights as locals?
It was to take away the case for allegations of torture or abuse or neglect etc
It gave refugees and advocates little ammunition, hence the now desperate and low act of using children.
Locals themselves don't have an agenda or the least possible out of all parties, from what i read from their comments they all share different views, like most people from any country, some think having them on the island is good for the economy some don't, some think the money has helped, some thinks its just gone into politicians pockets, some don't like the refugees, some are friends with many of the refugees, some even date refugees .
They all seem to agree on a few things though, they all still seem proud of their home and protective of it when the media labels it a hell, and they all seem to agree refugees and advocates are just trying to play Aussies for fools.
As for your post they are basically he said she said incidents that i thinks its fair to assume come from refugees, who obviously are going to paint a negative picture of things rather than a positive one, obviously they want you togo home and say how terrible things are, rather than come home and go, yeah it was all cool, refugees were happy to just hang there.
BTW. i had to laugh that you mentioned the A/C systems..how many locals have A/C?
Poor A/C is definitely a first world problem pretty much the whole of the developing world doesn't have A/C my wife inlays live way inland in a stinking city and we only got them A/C the other year probably the only house in her neighbourhood with A/C.
Also if you are going to be a proper refugee advocate never ever mention that Refugees are provided with education, you are suppose to deny they have access to education.
Anyway here is the education provided, even adults have access to further education like english courses.
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about/corporate/information/fact-sheets/e...
hey Indo, you were saying you keep tabs on the Indonesian media. Would be interested to know what were they saying about Morrison's thought bubble about moving our embassy to Jerusalem. Don't think it would be too flattering.
A/c for the hospital mutton head.
You honestly got rocks in your head if you think being a refugee in the Nauru community is OK.
It's not he said she said.
I worked with a police officer daily who used to tell us what they did to refugees.
The political system is very fucked.
Honestly indo
Do you think I make this Shit up
I seen a refugee self imolate
I seen a refugee jump under a bus
I know what it is like on that island
I remember your post from last time Inzider that just bagged out the local people and IMHO bordered on racism.
Yeah sorry i don't actually believe you, i think you would have mentioned those things first.
But yeah, I'm not interested in getting into a back and forth argument style discussion, so lets just agree to disagree.
@Guy
I did see that issue in Indonesian media and did see the negative view Jokowi has on it, but to be honest i just skipped over the articles on that topic, just doesn't interest me, i don't really have an opinion either way on the issue.
Gee, keeping the largest Muslim country on earth and on our doorstep onside would have to be the government's first priority I would have thought.
OK
You only want to believe what you believe
You want to call me a liar well go fuck yourself cunt.
Yeh Guy, certainly more important than bolstering the Jewish vote in a by election.
No offence but you don't fill me with confidence you are being 100% true full when you start a new profile up to post in this thread.
Look fucktard
I created a new account as someone a while back said some fucked up Shit about my children
I'm done with offering you a real life account of Nauru.
Your a fucking Muppet as far as I'm concerned I'fyou don't listen to a social anthropologists real life account of Nauru.
Deconstructing society and culture is what I've got a degree in.
Your an armchair expert who had the opportunity to learn but have your blinkers on and only want to believe Your Own version
Open your mind for fucks sake.
Over and out
I do remember ages ago when you brought up you has been to Nauru and i initially thought great a real had account, but then all you did is talk positively about the refugee guys (i cant remember what ethnic group you said) and then just bagged the locals out.
It's quite obvious just one of those situations where you pick a team and then the other team is the enemy, I'm not interested in that kind of BS, i can read that crap from refugee advocates.
The locals varied views I've read make much more sense, they don't just all fall into one view, theres a bit of a they are full of it attitude and a frustration of their country and people being misrepresented but rarely any hatred.
Their views I've read are varied, some locals get on with refugees some have employed them, some even helped them get business started, some are friends with some while don't get along with others even reports of mixed relationships.
Its been made clear that although many refugees are basically just doing what they can to get to Australia and making up all kind of BS, that not all are like that and many although they might not admit it to the media are appreciative of what they have provided, because reality is compared to most refugees out there they are in a good situation, everything provided they need free of charge, safe refugee and unlike 95 to 99% of refugees in the world they have a pretty good chance of resettlement.
The other things I've read like that independent traveler account (link i posted the other day) seems to back up the views stated by locals, refugee dudes all nicely dressed up out there having a drink at the local bar, refuges working in the community.
Yeah sure I'm sure there is also locals that hate the refugees, I'm sure there is negative incidents that happen some the locals fault some the refugees fault, i don't doubt the cop telling you stories of treating refugees bad, you get the same thing in places like Indonesia and most likely just trying to talk himself up as a tough guy, doest mean all cops there are the same.
You are always going to have the localism aspect and having people in your place that are talking bad about your country and painting you as the bad guys, isn't going to help the situation.
I don't doubt incidents of bullying that happens in schools, kids bully, but I've also heard of kids getting on and playing together and seen photos to back it up.
Im just taking as much information from different sources as possible, but sometimes its pretty obvious that some is BS so you always have to take that into account.
Is it likely that you saw some refugee set the self on fire, or jump under a bus on an island that doesn't have a great deal of cars or trucks...Hmmm very skeptical.
IMHO you just have your view and just trying to paint a picture that supports your view.
Here is a local view i can share (not FB or private message)
An excerpt blog from a local.
"There is no denying the fact that Nauru has greatly benefited from this arrangement in terms of more jobs, financial stability and economic growth, but in turn, have received ten times more criticism and the negative uproar that would make you think twice if it’s all worth it.
Since the detention centers have been declared an open camp in 2015, refugees are free to roam around the island as they like, some have settled in the community opening shops and businesses such as hair salons, electronic repair shops.
Some even went from house to house selling little handcrafts or trinkets that they have made themselves, even homemade food.
That is the level of safety they feel in the community, believe it or not, and contrary to what the media is broadcasting, locals and refugees are interacting socially and peacefully I might add with the exception of a few.
This is my personal view on the refugee saga in Nauru."
https://kaelyndekarube.wordpress.com
A local girl I've asked a few question too on FB also pointed me to this video
And says this girl is full of it and worked at a local hairdresser on the island (I've read a few media articles and hair saloon was suppose to be one of the areas refugees have worked)
Comments under video, say same thing as i was told (found his FB profile and he is a true Nauru local)
So yeah like i said basically, he said she said.
I could give you plenty of more examples but would have to provide links to peoples Facebook or groups so wont.
"There were more than 1300 children in detention on Manus Island and Nauru when the Coalition took over from Labor in 2013. Mr Morrison now says there are fewer than 30 on Nauru" Weekend Australian November 10-11.
Who ya gonna call when people smugglers are out of control?
Yeah if you put your own politically beliefs aside on this matter its pretty clear Liberals have done a very good job.
1. Reduced boats to a manageable level (yes the reduction started from Rudd but turn backs are the real key in keeping numbers very low)
2. Reduced numbers on manus and Nauru and yes reduced children there, even with about 50 being born on Nauru in most of this time.
3. Gone from closed jail like centres to open centres and community living where even working and running business by refugees is happening.
4. Come up with three resettlement options, PNG, Cambodia, USA
5. Reduced drownings at sea hugely.
6. Our highest refugee intake since humanitarian programs started https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/australia-takes-the-most-r...
And I've never voted liberal, but people will still bang on about how labour did better or spin BS about conditions or this and that.
Reality is some governments do better in some areas than others, liberal do a better job in some areas, labor do a better job in other areas.
Better being a relative term Indo, neither side can claim to have done well. As you probably know there are now tens of thousands of refugees living on the streets of Indonesia with no support services because the "boats were turned back". There are also large numbers of people who arrived in those camps traumatised by their experiences who were then traumatised further to create a disincentive for those who might be tempted to follow. In the past rulers would often torture their enemies and display their heads for a similar purpose.
even on the sabbath the caravan rolls on. for balance lets also add to that list blocking the Malaysia solution shall we. as even you have noted the liberals probably opposed that because they feared it would work and they didn't want to stop the little vote earner of dehumanising refugees.
just on that Malaysia idea, the libs apparently opposed it coz Malaysia wasn't a signatory to the UN's human rights convention but keeping people indefinitely locked up in detention (latterly on day release) would also be against the UNs rules. Oh the irony. and to think scomo was on his knees in tears. my bullshit detector just exploded.
Cheap sentiment Guy. " I felt really bad about torturing you so that makes it OK. " Watch out for Slomo, he's a nasty piece of work.
BB - So you’re keen to see Australia support the tens of thousands in Indonesia, plus the 170,000 we’ve taken in in the last decade . Plus all their tens of thousands of relatives who come on reunification visas ( not counted as refugees) , plus the 170000 odd refugees we’ll help in the next decade , plus their tens of thousands of relatives, plus the hundreds of thousands that’ll be on their way once they see we are a soft touch on illegal immigration again ?
You might have to keep working , BB . Australia will need your taxes. Or we could just keep borrowing money from overseas to pay for it all as we’ve done for a decade. Then we can sell off our assets to China to pay for it all and cut essential services to the bone due to constant economic shortfalls . Of course the current services will need to be expanded , rather than cut due to the hundreds of thousands of new Australians that your mercy wants to accomodate but what you won’t be able to pay for.
Blowin if you go someone's home and destroy it just 'cos your mates thought it was a good idea at the time, yeh I think you have responsibility for the clean up. You can't give them back their dead relatives and, in many cases, the trauma you caused will never heal. The least you can do is give them a home but Jesus friggin' Christ ......... not if it interferes with our right to our exalted lifestyle.
BB - honest question. Under what pretence was the Australian military sent to Afghanistan? Were we meant to be fighting the Taliban or Al quaeda ?
Same with Syria and Iraq ?
Did Australia go to destroy civilisation or free people from oppression ? I understand that the Iraq was about securing oil for the USA , but what was our justification?
Honest question.
Easy Blowin. In objective terms we didn't have one. The pretext for Iraq was that they had weapons of mass destruction when, even before the war, the evidence was clear that they did not. The invasion of Afghanistan was to destroy the Taliban, which of itself was possibly justifiable, but a glance at the history of that country would have made it obvious that it was never going to work. In both cases the wars were conducted with a complete and callous disregard for the millions of residents who were innocent of anything except being born in the wrong country. Bush, Blair and Howard should have been hauled in as war criminals. They were guilty as the hell they created!
Oh and ISIS formed from the remains of Saddam's army which led to the current mayhem in Syria.
I personally don’t think we should have been involved in the Middle East in any military capacity whatsoever, but can you say with complete honesty that Australia’s effort in Afghanistan, for instance, was utterly without well intention ?
If we were there to crush the Taliban , why are we obligated to harbour endless Afghani refugees if they were fleeing to avoid war and persecution before we arrived and that our military intervention in their best interests may have exacerbated?
Unbelievable the amount of misinformation and lies on both sides of this issue and the lack of mature conversation in Australia, by media, politicians , refugee advocates, and public.
Views always see to be either naive pro refugee advocates or racist anti refugee people.
The recent Kids on Nauru issue is just mind-blowing on the complete tripe being peddled by refugee advocates and media. (not even sure where to start on that)