Submitted by Blowin on Mon, 06/05/2017 - 19:53
Without dispute , the single most hurtful act in the short history of our nation has been the dispossession of the indigenous Australians from the sovereignty of their homeland.
The continued deterioration of the General standard of living of the original inhabitants of our country cannot be ignored or abrogated .
Aboriginal Australians are calling for a treaty. What that treaty may encompass , I can only speculate.
What would you as a fellow Australian , consider a fair and equitable result of any such treaty ?
As a native born Australian myself that knows no other homeland and - to maybe romanticise the point - as someone that was born to the cry of the currawong and the laughter of the kookaburra, how can I reconcile my desire to appease the needs of the descendants of the First Nations peoples without conceding the fact that I also , am nothing if not as Australian as anyone else ?
Where does satisfaction lie with a treaty ?
A sovereign state within our borders ? If so, where ?
Who would be willing to vacate their home for a political body representative of the First Nation ancestors ? A political body constituent of people's that are often times as European as Indigenous by blood . Who determines whether anyone is pure Australian enough to qualify for any possible racial segregation ?
What other possible outcomes could result from a treaty ?
Would such a treaty be relevant in this new age of globalisation and the recognition of race as analogous branches of the same tree ? Will the discounting of racialism in pursuit of unified humanity render any such race based division as puerile ?
Uplift - The only white man sensitive to the plight of the Blackman. No one understands like Lifty. So unique.
Like I said you are a bullshitter, racist maggot. You continually call and portray Indigenous Australians 60,000 years of success and Culture as quote, 'garbage'. Make up some more of your marvelous, dramatic stories. You make bullshitting look so easy, racist maggot.
Yeah , this is really not fun.
If you want to keep saying I'm a Klansman you can tell it to the mirror at the gym that was built on land usurped from massacred blackfellas, cause I can't indulge your insanity any longer .
OK, time for the sheriff to roll into town and the townsfolk to coo and hush in alarm.
Anyone know a sheriff?
Gaz, sorry but Anthony Mundine is not really a true indigenous spokes person. Yeah, I'm sure many love him.
It was Warren I was suggesting. I assumed that was obvious. Yes sure it is expected that there be diverse indigenous views - expected and wanted. But in order to get away forward is for a common voice. At least, a bit of this and bit of that, if you know what I mean. But it is disturbing when a cartoonist highlights their plights in the bush and then calls him 'racist'. Go figure.
indo, your post indicates that the soln is found in telling remote aboriginal people what to do and providing solutions for them.
blowin. i think your point about "what are you willing to concede" misses the mark. no individual will ever need to directly concede anything. the call for treaty is a landmark to pave a way forward that can take many different forms; including those where aboriginal heritage and care of the land isn't in opposition to govt money making mantra. are their mutual beneficial opportunities? with a treaty I think are potential opportunities for our nation greater than just pulling aboriginal people out of disadvantage. care of the environment is one. i must be overly-lightheaded at the moment, but to coin a phrase from trump, our nation can "be great".
good debate. is it possible from herc and blowin to call a truce? PS> the whole spewin weightlifting vid was kind of funny in a weird sort of blokey australian way.
dat you Stu?
Imagine an indigenous royal family? Then maybe Crown land could have some actual meaning. Queen Elizabeth right now "owns" the whole of Australia including the minerals under your beach house and the fish in the sea - if there was ever a need for a change, fixing that is a definite first cab off the rank. Treaty yeah and Kathy for Queen ....
@tb ah your right i actually forgot about warren and instantly thought of the man!
Well i guess the alternative is you can just let them be and things like high suicide rates, low life expediency, and all the other problems will continue.
I know some people would like to think these problems can magically be fixed but they can't, even throwing endless amounts of money at the problem won't fix things, the root of the problem is lack of employment and lack of something to aim for and strive for.
This was possibly not a problem before white man came.
1. Because they were too busy surviving hunting and gathering often being nomadic.
2. They didn't have anything else to compare their life too.
And that said I'm sure it's not a problem for all Aboriginal people, but its obviously a problem for many because we know the rates are very high.
Now it's fun again.
PS. Anyone know how to post stuff like that straight up rather than just a link ?
On an iPad.
Hm tried to show the element that links pics but it didnt work. Its a small piece of html code but i cant post it in here. Basically its img=src"link in here" but you need to close it on both sides with < and >
indo. letting them be is equally not an option im suggesting. thats would necessitate providing no infrastructure etc which is not viable or sensible. i was suggesting that work and future activity based opportunities for remote indigenous communities should be based off mutually agreeable solutions. self determination is great word and i like it but reality is that no section of australian society is ever fully self determinable. vacuums only exist in space. reality always applies. but telling people to go work at a nearby mine when they may have been opposed to the mine in the first place isnt a solution either.
Gaz, I agree with your 3 points, and in particular the idea that we need a Bill of Rights.
Currently, The Constitution is (still) an embarrassment - in the words of Lowitja O'Donoghue, former ATSIC Chair:
"It says very little about what it is to be Australian. It says practically nothing about how we find ourselves here - save being an amalgamation of former colonies. It says nothing of how we should behave towards each other as human beings and as Australians
I suspect that most people don't even realise how much of a fringe-dweller Australia is in this regard."
Australian is a real recalcitrant amongst modern liberal democracies in that it has neither a statutory nor a constitutional Bill of Rights - I wonder if people realise this.
Also, saw this and thought you might find it interesting.
Australia We Share
(Geoff Davies, 30 April 2013)
An ancient land from Rock to sand
A Dreaming old and wise
White, brown and black from other lands
New ways from old arise
From whips and chains through gold and fleece
Innovation, sweat and care
A new refrain to grace the world
A fair go and fair share
To Dream together, old and new
Australia we share.
A willful land of flood and fire
Of forests lush and tall
Of rivers slow and jewel reef
And creatures fit for all
This land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare
From aeons past a heritage
For us to take due care
We all are now custodians
Australia, we care.
'OK, time for the sheriff to roll into town and the townsfolk to coo and hush in alarm.
Anyone know a sheriff?'
Well, yeh, sheriffs, deputies, posses, even ex cop private detectives!
Yeh, yeh, I know, I gotta stop telling the truth, its against the law!
I gotta stop telling the truth. I said Richo gave his trophy back! And bloody MR spilled his guts! Bloody liar! Craike's a gronk! Especially at around the 4.10 mark, can't even hold a fuck'n edge at speed! That other guy proves all ya need is a thruster! And those other lucky, dumb twinnie cunts? Lucky fuckers disappeared without even a trace! Eggs! Sheriff and his deputies shralped all over the lot of 'em!
Fuck, I always obeyed the law, I always looked right before going! Just there was never any one there, that's all. Well not till the swillnut club! They're always in the right... even if they're wrong! Except when they're injured again... and again... and again and... Fucking necks! Fucking backs! Fucking knees! Fucking rotatin' cuffs! Fucking shoulders! Fucking groins! Fucking soma typers! I'm feeling left out! Uninjured, unmarked, pristine! And God knows how I escaped the sheriff and his bad boy deputy, limestone shreddin' bad boys for so long!
Seeing as funny shit is legal, nah this shit's funnier happenin' The good 'ol days! Photographic memory is a bitch! Fucking bird fucking dogs? Bird fucking dogs? Really? Grown fucking men doing bird fucking dogs... in fucking public? Not even crippled fuck'n slattsey would be seen dead doing bird fucking dogs... would he... oh fucking no... not that!
'thanks uplift. I must admit in the gym I do round my lower back a bit at the bottom of a squat or at least my mate says so. probably in an attempt to get the most out of the exercises by going low, but if that's extending beyond my "safe" range of motion then its best to avoid that as you've said.
a few years back I had a lower back episode. the physio referred to my multifidus muscles and reckoned then were too weak. I don't know how he knew that since they are tiny muscles underneath larger muscles but anyhow he was adamant. he talked about doing the bird-dogs so help strengthen them. is the bird-dog exercise really all that unique for working on these tiny muscles? or is it just as good to do extensions like in your vid...for me, the extensions feel like a real exercise that actually takes effort...the bird-dogs not so much.'
And seeing how funny vids is legal sheriff. Deputy blowie makes some good appearances too! He gets areal helping hand at the 1.30 mark! And the ending? Fucking sickening!
Well thankfully at the next Culturally sensitive course thank God deputy blowie will actually be there, to actually sort em out, to actually keep the balance, and actually keep them from getting too actually uppity!
''I actually said that to an indigenous lady that was presenting a course on cultural sensitivity that I attended after she'd laid it on too thickly that Whitey only cares for himself , not even his family, unlike her faultless people....very Upliftesque.''
I gotta stop telling the truth, its against the law!
@Happyas I wasn't suggesting they be told they must work at the mines, (if they like they could turn down the jobs, although it probably should risk losing unemployment benefits if they were getting them, as i believe is the case elsewhere when offered a job and it is turned down)
I was suggesting the mines must give priority to local people first even if that means training them. (obviously not the higher specialised positions)
Rather than just bypass them and employee fly in fly out workers, i don't think the idea should be limited to just remote regions though it should be standard practise in regional areas especially where full time employment prospects are low.
Where i live Phillip island not far away a desal plant was built some years ago, and even in this case it seemed locals gained very little employment from the project i know of locals who did get jobs but i know of countless tradies and labourers who applied for positions and didn't get them and i know many of these same positions were filled by people from Melbourne or even interstate.
IMO before these big companies employee people from elsewhere they must have to prove that the locals have had an opportunity to be employed including training before they are allowed to seek workers from further afield.
BTW. Notice how I've not mentioned race in this, i don't think Aboriginals should be given priority based on race/ethnicity but obviously some of these areas in regions or closest to mines have high populations of Aboriginals.
Indo if fully traditional Aboriginals work are they then white?
Had this kind of conversation with some Aboriginal friends years ago.
What's happening in the ok corall?
One of the hidden costs, and results of the lie of Terra Nullius is the overall resulting ignorance of non indigenous Australian's, regarding what Traditional Indigenous Cultures were/are. This is evident in many of the comments here, as well as when talking to everyday Australians. As the conniving british (good 'ol uncle whitey) lied and used deceit to claim Australia, they then had to perpetuate and back up the lies and deceit. So Traditional Indigenous Australians were enthusiastically portrayed as 'wretched', unsavoury, prehistoric simpletons, more animal than human. By the time the deceit and lies couldn't be hidden any longer, and stories were filtering back to Europe, the mold had been set. As mentioned earlier, the british then attempted genocide, and tried to eradicate Traditional Indigenous Australians, the human truth. In order to foster and enable the thinking necessary to have the british public join into this horrific quest, they ramped up the 'vermin', brute like, prehistoric (caught in a time warp), savage portrayal of the Traditional Indigenous Australians. The legacy of Terra Nullius.
But the truth is, that nothing could be further from the truth. 60,000 year old Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures, the longest ever continual human Cultures in history, were at a level of sophistication and development far beyond the infantile british idea of culture. Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures were also the extreme opposite to the british culture. British culture was and is separatist. We are seen as separate entities, separate from nature. Some things are alive, some dead. Nature is viewed as outside of us, as merely a resource for us to exploit, or shelter from. So we have our results, our environment, due to those traits. On the contrary, Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures are all inclusive. It is important to get clear that although the british liars convinced their subjects that there was one Culture, Traditional Indigenous Culture was comprised of numerous different Cultural Groups, bound by a common goal. This required a level of sophistication and understanding far beyond our simple grasp of culture. Life was everywhere. Everything was infused with life, spirit. Everything was thus related. Relationships, kinship was far beyond anything in our culture. Each person was formally related to the life situations, the environment and events prior to birth, and at then at birth. So on conception, there were extensive, clear relationships to Mother Earth. And to beyond Mother Earth, its Source, or what is commonly though of as 'Dreaming'. Each person was trained and taught about these extensive relationships, and their duties to them.
In a dramatically simplified description, each Cultural group was further broken down according to environment. If the emu for instance was your earthly relation, you were responsible for knowing all that meant, including fostering and caring for the emu, and the emu's environment. If someone from a visiting Cultural Group wanted to enter that area, and hunt an emu, they first needed to get your approval, and follow the laws you informed them of. This formed an overall extensive, unrivalled, intimate knowledge with literally every molecule in the environment. You literally had more than one father and mother, which further added to the extensive sophistication. Children were viewed as everyone's children. "Family', was a huge organism, which also included the source of Mother earth, and Mother Earth. And each person intimately knew their importance, their place, and their role in the huge symphony of life. Inclusion compared to separatism. So this resulted in a different set of results compared to what the british have achieved.
Remarkably, this sophisticated, massive amount of extensive information was stored in minds. Information was stored in minds. Not in libraries, or electronic storage mediums. So minds were not stunted and atrophied, for example, as when using devices to do the work of the body, or limiting the functions of the body, resulting in an atrophied dysfunctional body. The important role of memory, mental storage, and the opposite, and the far reaching effects is a much studied field. Here is a small snippet.
Traditional Indigenous Australian minds were developed and utilised to their maximum potential. 60, 000 years of stored, extensive, sophisticated all inclusive information, all stored in mind. Compared to? Well, it is a totally unrivalled situation in human history. As a result, the environment was created rich, loved, and nurtured. Food and resources were on tap. Contrary to belief, Traditional Indigenous Australians were extremely time rich. They had ample time to share and teach information through extensive, numerous ceremonies and gatherings. Ample time to reflect, to ponder. Ample time to foster and enjoy all of their extensive relationships. They travelled around the country, interacting extensively according to season. Their lives were fullfilling.
Turkey raised a good point. Conditioning, thought is a powerfull thing. For instance, a swamp worm is a delicacy to some people, a pest to some, and enough to make some vomit. According to their culture, their conditioning. To Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures even grains of sand breath life. The earth was them. The whole was a living cathedral, to be loved, and respected. Reciprocity. How can someone conditioned to the exact opposite have any real comprehension of that. Its like a person vomiting, choking on a swamp worm trying to feel it is a treat, a delicacy. And visa versa.
They genuinely experienced themselves being obliterated. Hated. Mangled. With every british footprint, every boot breaking every law, literally kicking the shit out of every cell of their being. Their so extensively connected mother savaged and raped. More and more. More wounds, as we suck the life from the earth.
Indigenous Australians have been forced to learn much about our culture, by our use of brute force. I won't put many pictures of them being defiled, and in chains, it is deeply hurtful, insulting and painfull. However, as outlined, and really beyond our direct understanding, it is really no different to all of the following our culture has demonstrated in that regard.
The only real chance Indigenous Australians have is self determination. Obviously the past is gone. But, their track record shows they have more chance of making a better future from where they are for themselves, than by letting us dictate to them anymore, or by following our lead anymore. It is the fair, truthfully just thing to do, if we really believe in advancing Australia fairly.
It won't mean a quick easy solution. Put into perspective, even though it pales in comparison, and all because of our illustrious 'founders' doing, this is where Indigenous Australians are starting from.
And unless they have self determination, this is our aim. Heading into the cosmos.
Self determination, hopefully Indigenous Australians can teach us something.
Im not sure if i get what you are saying???
Id say working or not working is kind of irrelevant to race or ethnicity.
Im not even sure what fully traditional Aboriginals means?...do you mean those that live in a way they would before white fella arrived?
Maybe there is some?.... but it's news to me.
IMO the only White Aboriginals are Albino or a throw back, or those that have a mixed blood line but still enough DNA to be considered Aboriginal (which gets back too that topic I'm not really interested in discussing again) or white fella's who have some Aboriginal relative in their family tree and decide to ignore the majority of their family tree and identify as Aboriginal (again that discussion is done, go back a few pages to read my view on that)
Just for the record and one thing i didn't say a few pages back IMO although skin colour is often a sign of if a person is Aboriginal or not it's not a deciding factor in my mind, you do get some weird situations where out of the blue you will get a child who's skin colour is lighter than both parents or even darker, and it doesn't mean the women has got it on with a different man, although i think it often is a sign somewhere in the family tree there was a couple who got together and a had a baby of mixed race.
ha ha...your not just fishing with me trying to stir this end of the topic up are you?
Jeez Nick, I've been trying to stay out of this but that's just plain offensive. Condescending and naive at the same time. Bravo.
Ignorance is Zen
Both comments deleted.
Consider that your first warning Nick3 and take a moment to think before you post again. What you typed might be considered acceptable among your mates but it doesn't float here. And don't even bother with the free speech horseshit; try saying what you did out aloud in Martin Place and see how far you get.
Herc, reply deleted simply to keep things in context - i.e no need for a reply when the initial comment ain't there.
Do you wan't to change the history of world civilisation to suit the aboriginals.
60,000 years and they have not progressed those are facts even they can't deny.
Herc is happy for good old whitey when it suits him and to have his very extreme view to this so called treaty.
So I have learn't that when you guys are put in a corner that you can't argue then go ahead and ban me. At least I won't waste any more time on the ignorant people on this site.
Uppity, that post i really enjoyed. Balance, lucid, succint- ha ha. We need to teach this to our children.
One part prompted a memory of when I was a little fella, my brothers and i were babysat by a family friend while mum and dad were at work, full blood lady called 'Phyllis lady', i adored her. She told me stories about the song lines or song tracks or something like that, about how her ancestors could travel and traverse the length and breadth of Australia by singing certain songs in sequence when rreaching a certain point. They could find food, water anything they needed as long as they sang the right song at the right time. they could travel thousands of clicks purely based on these songs that were passed down through the generations.
I remember the way she told it I was in awe. i was so amazed, it was very beautiful and I've never forgotten that. Obviously I can't put it as well as she did but you get the gist.
No one is denying world history you mupppet, but do you need to ridicule the aborigines for living in sync with nature for that long.
How long do you reckon you'd last?
Well, Stu, you did want a 'robust' discussion. Emotional, maybe, accurate - suggest not. Again, if in doubt see how the bush really works. The city cousins are quite different to the country cousins.
Zenagain . There are many cultures that are in sync with nature.
Who is ridiculing aboriginals??? No one can argue that are civilisation's advanced over time they did not. For what ever reason I don't really care and if they were happy to have a culture as they do and live that way all good and they can stand proud.
I am pretty sure I will last just as long as many so called aboriginals of today.
@ prick3 - I was unfortunate enough to read that load of shit you poured across my screen earlier on and I have to say, get fucked mate. Are you seriously considering aboriginal culture is cheaper than others because they didn't go down the path of destroying the environment to suit themselves as others did? To suggest that someones heritage is worth less because you personally prefer the history of other ones is the most elitist bucket of slop I've heard for a long time.
Picture this, the government decides to come along and bulldoze your hillbilly house to the ground and burn whatever shitty belongings are left. You complain about it, but everyone just decides "ah fuck it they were only hillbillies anyway! You didn't need any of those shitty belongings anyway! 5 Generations of Nicks Hillbilly ancestors all lived in the same shit house and not one of them ever had an education or thought it might be good to do up the old shithole. Other families were educated, moved on to nicer things and generally pulled their finger out but not Nicks flea-ridden house full of rednecks. They should be grateful we knocked that inbreeding cesspool to the ground! Just move on guys whatever memories you had there must have been shit anyway"
Make sense prick?
Reckon we all just take a meta moment. I don't want to close the comments but nor do I want the nutty slander to continue.
So....good waves today, eh?
Great waves yesterday, surfed till dark.
Got a 4 hour window after lunch, hoping i can get a quick one in.
Didn't really want to get involved in this fake clickbait crap thread. But obviously something heavy has gone down, which was Blowins real intention.
Nick wrote "Stunet,
Do you wan't to change the history of world civilisation to suit the aboriginals.
60,000 years and they have not progressed those are facts even they can't deny."
Ahhh. Yes..... "Progress"........... Now there's a word.
I suppose if progress is inventing tv's, or anti biotics, mri scans, yes Aboriginals have not "progressed".
I suppose if filling up the ocean with plastic, ripping up forests, the lungs of the earth, and turning them into ikea furniture, inventing a weapon that can end life on earth, building nuclear reactors on major fault lines and poisoning everything, yes, aboriginals have not "progressed".
But..... If we were not to exist.. if aboriginals were the only people on earth, I'd say humans would survive till the sun expands and swallows the solar system.
They would "progress" till the end of time...
Hm yeh I've ranted now I'm done. Decent swell hitting metro south coast this weekend. 17.8 seconds.
Such a good day of surfing.
Its reads like bait doesn’t it, nah serious question I don’t think white fellas (me) really comprehend the complexity surrounding Aboriginal identity which has already likely to been covered. Years ago I was talking with a person and we were discussing families we both knew well and she said a young boke we knew had gone white.
In other words was living just like me. It was a conversation where she accepted me as an equal (Aboriginal, but I am white) but was losing respect for an Aboriginal because he was living like me but me living like me was OK.
It did my head in.
When I talk about tradition I mean initiated, I know white guys who have been and for all intensive purposes they are Aboriginal working away from the group but active in the day today issues yet none of the group or clan work which is a much to do with the remote location I guess.
Anyone on here ever seen the film "The Mind of Mr. Soames"? It's kinda 'bout a bloke who wakes up from a long coma and the outside world has changed that much he freaks the fuck out.
And now I'm back in Swellnut-land.
'Cept nothing has changed.
Same old shit from the same old shits.
Actually, in the film, Soamesy initially wakes up from his coma 'cos he gets given a new brain, and that's what freaks him out. And then he wreaks havoc.
What was wrong with Nick the Turd's censored response (apart from the fact his spelling and grammar and shit is pretty fucking retarded)?
"As far as culture goes 60,000 years and all they could come up with is a humpy for shelter , a spear and a boomerang, tapping sticks for musical instruments and the most crude form of painting.
Whilst the rest of the world saw the Roman Empire and what it created and achieved, look at ancient Egypt and what they built, the Mayan Civilisation,philosophy, science that was discovered , the artist's they came through the times. The music that was written and the musical instruments the were created. Other civilisation built boats and discoverd other lands, discovered how to create iron, glass and ued that to build things aswell as make weapons. Yes so 60,000 years and all the aboriginals achievd doesn't seem that impressive. I do admire their understanding of the land and environment."
I mean to give the fuckwit his fair dues, at least he just chucks it out there straight-up. No pussy-footing round there.
Not like the other morons who try and hide their racist bullshit with fake concern and fake facts and good manners and blah blah blah bullshit.
What's the difference between Nick's shit above and this?
"Stupid white people with their shallow grasp of the world around them.
Yeah , except they'd just sailed around the whole fucking Earth using knowledge they'd acquired .
Except they developed antibiotics .
Oh, and they invented flight.
And went to the Fucking MOON !!!!
And created the modern agricultural society that has extended human longevity to twice that of previous lifetimes and allowed the population of the Earth to expand exponentially ....even allowing for the birth of dumb cunt , contrarian weight lifters that continuously argue against the conditions that enabled their very existence.
But apart from that , yeah , no grasp of the natural world . Stupid people wandering the planet lost without spirituality or a grasp of the depth of nature.
Or even this?
"You forgot the most basic and one of the most important inventions of all the wheel."
I mean I don't lift weights or anything but maybe I'm just a dumb cunt too, I guess. Mainly 'cos I agree with Herc.
Yeah, I must be as dumb as a fucking dumb-bell too, hey? As good old Nick says:
"i think good old blowie has it all over you you moron."
Good old Blowie. The bloke that started this whole fucking shit-show.
Sheepdog. Alot of those things that you have mentioned will be happly used by you and people of indigenous backgrounds. Please don't take anything from Uncle Whitey and see how long you last.
By the way Zenagin if you think that by saying aboriginals haven't progressed like other civilisation is ridiculing them then you must feel that their lack of progression is something to be ashamed of. Bloody Racist.
Nick, maaaaate, I'm hearing ya. Just telling it like it is...for most of your fellow fuckwits on here who haven't got the balls to let it all hang out themselves.
Now best shut the fuck up before Stunts shuts the thread down.
You've gotta be more subtle, maaaate. Like good old Blowie and Indo-fucker and that good old 18c free-speech warrior Tony "the black" Barber.
Nick, I don't mind you expressing yourself mate. It was the welfare slur I objected to.
Okay I've got you, yeah i kind of touched on similar ideas a few pages back, if Aboriginally is based on ethnicity (practising culture, language, customs, being accepted in a Aboriginal community etc) is an Aboriginal who has nothing to do with any of those things and possibly never did still Aboriginal ?
And if a white fella with even no Aboriginal DNA/blood is accepted as part of an Aboriginal community and does partake in all those things can he be Aboriginal?
IMO no for me its about DNA but the way others think it seems it could be possible?
I did read Nick 3 comment this morning, they came across harsh and not worded the best, but it is an interesting topic why certain races/ethnicities developed quite fast while others remained stone age like.
I was actually trying to find out why and reading about some theories the other day about this.
As it hit me Aboriginals were still living a stone age like existence when not far away in indonesia, Indonesians had empires and armies and written languages and built big temples like Borobudur (started 750 AD) etc
I think it's a cop out to just say, is what we have really progress etc yeah sure their a negatives but off course it is unless you want to live in a cave and die at 30
But yeah its a hard topic to discuss.
I reckon you've got it arse about. Rather than "put it out there" the other commenters you mention show curiousity in the topic, some willingness to change views upon hearing facts, and simply aren't as wedded to ideology as Nick. At least that's how I read it, and I guess that's why I might appear to cut them some slack.
You go hard on TB, but if you want to live in an echo chamber of far left voices, well that's your prerogative. Me, I'd rather engage in the rhetorical parry and thrust that forms the core of many conversations on here. Surprisingly, I value TB's opinion, even if rarely agree.
Not really sure what you're trying to say about Blowin's post championing Western achievements. Yeah it was over the top, consider it, like irony or pathos, a literary tool to construct an argument. I don't think I'm being presumptuous here 'cos I've read posts of his that show compassion and understanding. It's just that sometimes a comment board becomes a type of thought experiment. You know, chuck it out there and see how your argument stands up. A digital iteration of Whitman's Song Of Myself: 'Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I contain multitudes.'
'Guns, Germs, and Steel' by Jarrod Diamond. He addresses that exact question and it's a masterpiece.
Read Guns, Germs and steel by Jarod Diamond , Indo. Gives an insight as to maybe why cultures developed as they did.
Hilarious all the crew calling me out for the klansman.
Last few weeks my main surfing mates have been blackfellas. We're not besties , but I'm getting called into waves and offered joints and having a chuckle between sets.
I think the confusion arises because I refuse to put aboriginal culture on a pedestal and I neither believe it's superior or inferior to western culture. I also refuse to condone the utopian fairytale that people try to sell. First people's were murderers , rapists and thieves as much as anyone .....they're human !
That's the bone to pick with Uplift , my first post was heartfelt and genuine and agrees with everyone regarding the injustice delivered to blackfellas but that gives no right to denigrate western culture as an entirety.
And the dreaming ? Sorry guys , but it's just another religion that I don't have any time for . Sure blackfellas believe it , but I don't . Just like I don't believe in Christianity , Islam or Buddhism . Other people can believe what they want doesn't mean I don't respect them for other aspects of their being.
Still want to call me names ? Be my guest.
PS Anyone need reminding that Aboriginals may have had ancestral representation in Australia 60,000 years ago , but they been existing on Earth for a long , long time before that .....same as us . And we were all living in the same manner as hunter gatherers everywhere humans existed .
Same story , different location . It's just that in very recent times in the scale of human history our paths diverted a bit. And I'd say we were all successful otherwise we wouldn't be here .But if you think that any of the divergent paths of humanity didn't involve land usurpation and war over territory then you're dreaming.
Nick, either you are bit slow, or you deliberately misread my post.
I'd say the former. It was about the interpretation of "progress"
Now as far as trying to "survive" without "uncle whitey's stuff", may I suggest you try to survive without plumbing, invented by the greeks, mass farming invented by the Egyptians, or even surfboards, invented by polynesians. Old uncle whitey didn't invent everything.
So, go shit on the ground, collect some ants to eat, and don't ever go surfing again, unless of course you thank the inventors on a daily basis, perhaps even pay some form of royalty, and be dictated to on how you should live your life.
Aboriginals were no less "progressed" than other nomadic tribes of the time. The Mayans were destroyed by the Spanish who were originally Romans in a time long past. Similary Egypt eventually became Roman. The common denominator here is that all were Monarchies at some stage. Look at all the "progressive civilizations" around the world and you'll see that each had an underclass of workers and a ruling class of fatcats. Aboriginal society no doubt had its hierarchies but it didn't waste hundreds of years building monuments to the egos of long dead kings or to gods that didn't exist. A conquering civilization brings with it technology. It's a no-brainer.
Believe it or not there is actually evidence of indigenous farming as well as fish traps etc. They weren't ploughing fields as we know it because there weren't any beasts of burden in Australia until the Europeans brought them in.
To say they weren't sea-faring also blatantly ignores the fact that they existed on places like Tasmania & Kangaroo Island.....
Okay Guys Cheers 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' it is.
BTW. Good post Blowin
wtf is with all this ancestral shit? ....talking about 60,000 years ago. how is it relevant talking about which "society" was more or less advanced or progressed? please (fucking) explain
the only thing that matters in this debate is that european settlement has damaged indigenous people and solutions are what is sought. lots of the argument on this thread has lost sight of that.
...... and here I was wondering whether there were people more dim witted and prepared to offer an opinion without considered thought than right wing of Turnbull's government.