Are pioneers really pioneers?

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groundswell started the topic in Saturday, 11 Jun 2016 at 8:54am

Indo pioneer is something i often hear but lets look at mentawais, the locasl have been living there for thousands of years.
Why is a white guy with a surfboard stumbling across those islands a pioneer? surfing pioneer maybe. pioneer at the wave yeah sure.
But not a pioneer to the area.This might sound different to what im trying to say but is a pioneer just a white guy venturing into and area where brown people lived for thousands of years? Arrogance of the west?

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stunet Saturday, 11 Jun 2016 at 2:38pm

Yeah but nah. Turn it around so the same statement is made in Oz: I think people know the 'pioneers of Angourie/Bells/Margs/wherever' weren't the first people to occupy the land but simply the first to surf the break.

It can be a little distasteful in the Third World context but no less accurate.

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Wharfjunkie Saturday, 11 Jun 2016 at 7:40pm

The term of pioneer when it comes to surfers on waves is an accurate description. Sometimes though it must be questioned are those who willingly claim to have pioneered waves full of shit? Especially some of the spots in Indo.

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Blowin Saturday, 11 Jun 2016 at 8:32pm

Even amongst the brown skinned legends they were pioneers.

The first crew to surf Ulu's were the first crew to surf Ulu's .

And people with brown skin watched it - and shit themselves at the thought of going near it - for hundreds of years.

Pioneers are people that reset the paradigm.

You can still be a pioneer tomorrow if you choose , Groundswell.

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groundswell Saturday, 11 Jun 2016 at 9:57pm

Some good answers there, got me thinking, thanks.

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Hako o hakonde ... Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 7:24am

I pioneered a new sandbank just the other day, first to see it and surf it, give me a medal :)))

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sharkman Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 8:28am

white is right ,and those pioneers who opened up all the surf spots we now know , are they responsible for the decline of local cultures and the overcrowding that some people call rape and pillage?

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tonybarber Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 9:18am

Change in the local cultures, maybe. Rape and pillage - don't think so.

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Wharfjunkie Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 4:11pm

sharkman wrote: white is right ,and those pioneers who opened up all the surf spots we now know , are they responsible for the decline of local cultures and the overcrowding that some people call rape and pillage?

Great question one that I cannot answer through personal experience. Regardless resort owners who have systems in place to create a better life for the local communities by injecting Westerners money to improve things such as health, minimising environmental impacts without ripping off people and forcing them to work for nothing could be seen as a positive outcome regardless of the number of tourists in the line up.

Resort owners who rape and pillage without regard for the needs or wants of the local communities or the environment are no different to a large mining or forestry corporation who bribe local officials or abuse tribal laws to make ridiculous profits leaving a barren land in their wake only on a smaller scale.

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lostdoggy Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 4:30pm

Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote: I pioneered a new sandbank just the other day, first to see it and surf it, give me a medal :)))

Is it still there?
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lostdoggy Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 4:34pm

sharkman wrote: white is right ,and those pioneers who opened up all the surf spots we now know , are they responsible for the decline of local cultures and the overcrowding that some people call rape and pillage?

The local culture was raped and pillaged well before the surfers pioneered any waves.
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dandandan Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 4:54pm

I agree with Stu's 'yeah but nah'. Not many people pay attention to surfers outside our own little circle. I'm absolutely certain my dear old Mum has never heard of surfers 'pioneering' anything. It does speak a lot to the narrative of places though: in the minds of many Australians, scoring a 'triple crown' on Poppies Lane is more 'Balinese' than Rangda.

The rape and pillage anecdote sounds like a bit of overkill too, although it's easy to downplay the impact new economies have anywhere. Just ask locals from any popular seaside town in Australia what it's like to see local corner stores turn into expensive fish and chip shops and cafes and all of a sudden they've got to drive an extra twenty minutes to get milk and bread. In the Indonesian case at least, there's always so much going on and some of the big structural changes to 'local culture' happened long before surf pioneers rocked up. Though a multi-billionaire turning up with bags of cash and literally buying up a third of the beachside land certainly shakes things up significantly.

An interesting thing I've been speaking to people about lately is that tourism developers purchasing land has turned some once public/communal spaces (though privately owned) into off limits areas for locals. For the bloke I was chatting to that means he has to move his goats, go further in search of fodder, and walk past his arch nemesis's house to get to the beach.Small things to us, but in small-town Indo it's end of the world.

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Hako o hakonde ... Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 5:52pm

lostdoggy wrote:
Hako o hakonde ni-biki no inu wrote: I pioneered a new sandbank just the other day, first to see it and surf it, give me a medal :)))

Is it still there?

It might be, but with a bit of swell this week I'm not sure it will be there when it drops, but there will be a new one somewhere else. Love beachies :)
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Blowin Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 7:04pm

sharkman wrote: white is right ,and those pioneers who opened up all the surf spots we now know , are they responsible for the decline of local cultures and the overcrowding that some people call rape and pillage?

Especially in France.

Victorian thugs ruined the joint for those poor Frenchies.

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geoffrey Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 7:11pm

im completely neutral here as i dont consider myself a pioneer or on the other hand someone who has fucked a wave/spot. so my question is, should someone who takes credit in pioneering a spot then also shoulder the blame for fucking that same spot? seems unfair to take one and not the other.

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Blowin Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 7:46pm

geoffrey wrote: im completely neutral here as i dont consider myself a pioneer or on the other hand someone who has fucked a wave/spot. so my question is, should someone who takes credit in pioneering a spot then also shoulder the blame for fucking that same spot? seems unfair to take one and not the other.

Depends if they can keep their lips shut or not.

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mikehunt207 Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 8:43pm

"The right" springs to mind with this topic. First surfed/pioneered by lids untill the first pics started to emerge, taken on by some local maniacs, more pics, taken over by team bonythong , MMN s mates and Ordy, more pics, worldwide stage overload forever now, even read somewhere that it's too busy for the poor photogs ha ha now that is irony , sell someone's spot out bigtime and then complain that they can't take photos on their own anymore

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goofyfoot Sunday, 12 Jun 2016 at 9:07pm

dandandan wrote: I agree with Stu's 'yeah but nah'. Not many people pay attention to surfers outside our own little circle. I'm absolutely certain my dear old Mum has never heard of surfers 'pioneering' anything. It does speak a lot to the narrative of places though: in the minds of many Australians, scoring a 'triple crown' on Poppies Lane is more 'Balinese' than Rangda.

The rape and pillage anecdote sounds like a bit of overkill too, although it's easy to downplay the impact new economies have anywhere. Just ask locals from any popular seaside town in Australia what it's like to see local corner stores turn into expensive fish and chip shops and cafes and all of a sudden they've got to drive an extra twenty minutes to get milk and bread. In the Indonesian case at least, there's always so much going on and some of the big structural changes to 'local culture' happened long before surf pioneers rocked up. Though a multi-billionaire turning up with bags of cash and literally buying up a third of the beachside land certainly shakes things up significantly.

An interesting thing I've been speaking to people about lately is that tourism developers purchasing land has turned some once public/communal spaces (though privately owned) into off limits areas for locals. For the bloke I was chatting to that means he has to move his goats, go further in search of fodder, and walk past his arch nemesis's house to get to the beach.Small things to us, but in small-town Indo it's end of the world.


Of course the rape and pillage comment is overkill. What do you expect. It's sharkman, biggest drama queen going around . Kinda like filming two mile for surf vids and then campaigning against exposure
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sharkman Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 8:33am

goofy , is that your alter ego ? Rape and pillage is relative white mans colonialism , but you wouldn't get that .just take it personal , you really don't have much of a clue especially when you are a well known Victorian white wing/ racist !

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goofyfoot Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 10:04am

Ha straight into the overkill again.. Well known Victorian Racist?? Wtf?! I never knew waves had different races.
Strange thing to say sharkman. Veeeery strange

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Wharfjunkie Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 11:44am

sharkman wrote: goofy , is that your alter ego ? Rape and pillage is relative white mans colonialism , but you wouldn't get that .just take it personal , you really don't have much of a clue especially when you are a well known Victorian white wing/ racist !

Thats pretty rough

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Hako o hakonde ... Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 12:36pm

But it's true, I googled goofyfoot and it turns out in german it means "right foot forward white extremest"

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talkingturkey Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 2:11pm

Is a "white wing racist" a purveyor of angel food cakes? Who speaks for the 'devil's food cake'?

Surely, we should look to the good old Aussie pioneering Lamington? Or is that part of the problem?

Wasn't John Howard referred to once as a "desiccated coconut"?

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sharkman Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 2:18pm

goofyfoot wrote: Ha straight into the overkill again.. Well known Victorian Racist?? Wtf?! I never knew waves had different races.
Strange thing to say sharkman. Veeeery strange

yeah well known White Wing Victorian Racist ,get the quote right as your reputation precedes you , bit like the drivel about 3KBay !

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goofyfoot Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 2:25pm

You've lost it...

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Sheepdog Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 2:48pm

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Sheepdog Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 2:56pm

"Pioneers"......... Fuckn spare me........ Kicking back in an air conditioned boat eating grilled rib fillet with quinoa salad, satellite hook up checking for likes, choofing clove durries and sucking down boutique beers.......... It's a tough life being a pioneer.......

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AndyM Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 3:01pm

talkingturkey wrote: Is a "white wing racist" a purveyor of angel food cakes? Who speaks for the 'devil's food cake'?

Surely, we should look to the good old Aussie pioneering Lamington? Or is that part of the problem?

Wasn't John Howard referred to once as a "desiccated coconut"?

Some very important links there TT, I'm surprised that Sixty Minutes haven't picked up on that earlier.

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dandandan Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 4:16pm

geoffrey wrote: im completely neutral here as i dont consider myself a pioneer or on the other hand someone who has fucked a wave/spot. so my question is, should someone who takes credit in pioneering a spot then also shoulder the blame for fucking that same spot? seems unfair to take one and not the other.

It might be illogical, but I only ever get annoyed these days when money becomes involved. I readily forgive anybody who discovers (for themselves) the quality reef break that works on a big southerly tucked behind the paddock and then brings their best mate with them next session. Most of us, if not all of us, have done that. I find it a bit harder to forgive someone who takes a photo of it and then passes it on to a magazine or website with their name attached and a link to their commercial website. In most cases, the only gain is theirs.

It's the same when travelling for surf. If it wasn't for ordinary surfers giving off little hints here and there I'd never surf half the spots I do. But when one bloke turns up and decides to buy up the beach, build a resort and make an Instagram page bragging about how uncrowded the area is it's hard not to be a bit disappointed that they couldn't just quietly enjoy it like everybody else. But, as they say, such is life!

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crg Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 8:33pm

Pretty much the worst case scenario for any coastal locations ecology is for there to be a perfect wave. Guaranteed it will be "pioneered", exposed, bought, sold, developed and exploited. Just look at the point of discovery of every famous wave and fast forward 10,20,30 years and look at the landscape decimation.

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Blowin Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 9:00pm

crg wrote: Pretty much the worst case scenario for any coastal locations ecology is for there to be a perfect wave. Guaranteed it will be "pioneered", exposed, bought, sold, developed and exploited. Just look at the point of discovery of every famous wave and fast forward 10,20,30 years and look at the landscape decimation.

So true .

Surfers are literally the worst form of environmental vandal on the face of the Earth...if not the entire universe.

You only have to look at the wholesale destruction that surfers have done to places like G Land , Red Bluff , Deserts , Scar Reef , Eyre Peninsula , Aussie Pipe , Cylinders, Pipeline , Sunset , Cloudbreak , Crescent Head and Teahupoo to know that is complete and indisputable fact.

We could do a hell of a lot worse than to look to the mining industries as a way to act in symbiotic accordance with the natural environment in the future.

Fucking surfers .

That's why I'm taking up golf.

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AndyM Monday, 13 Jun 2016 at 9:09pm

crg wrote: Pretty much the worst case scenario for any coastal locations ecology is for there to be a perfect wave. Guaranteed it will be "pioneered", exposed, bought, sold, developed and exploited. Just look at the point of discovery of every famous wave and fast forward 10,20,30 years and look at the landscape decimation.

I kind of see what you're getting at but I would put the presence of mineral sands and the potential for a boat harbour, amongst many other possibilities, as worse for an area than a perfect wave.
Then you can start to talk about wholesale destruction.

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sharkman Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 9:38am

goofyfoot wrote: You've lost it...

well gee goof , help me find it! I am only going on what some of your "friends" tell me!

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sharkman Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 9:40am

talkingturkey wrote: Is a "white wing racist" a purveyor of angel food cakes? Who speaks for the 'devil's food cake'?

Surely, we should look to the good old Aussie pioneering Lamington? Or is that part of the problem?

Wasn't John Howard referred to once as a "desiccated coconut"?

I was actually a Vanilla Slice pioneer , before pastry was lite and fluffy and the custard was white!

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goofyfoot Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 10:17am

sharkman wrote:
goofyfoot wrote: You've lost it...

well gee goof , help me find it! I am only going on what some of your "friends" tell me!


"Friends".
You forget to wear your mask around the resin sharky? Gone to the brain.
How you can go from talking about pioneering waves to being a racist? Got me stumped. Little do you know my best mates Greek and my missus mum is indigenous Australian..
But You keep listening to those little voices in your head though.
See ya!
End of conversation
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Wharfjunkie Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 12:37pm

goofyfoot wrote:
sharkman wrote:
goofyfoot wrote: You've lost it...

well gee goof , help me find it! I am only going on what some of your "friends" tell me!


"Friends".
You forget to wear your mask around the resin sharky? Gone to the brain.
How you can go from talking about pioneering waves to being a racist? Got me stumped. Little do you know my best mates Greek and my missus mum is indigenous Australian..
But You keep listening to those little voices in your head though.
See ya!
End of conversation

What tribe cuz?

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sharkman Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 2:31pm

goofyfoot wrote:
sharkman wrote:
goofyfoot wrote: You've lost it...

well gee goof , help me find it! I am only going on what some of your "friends" tell me!


"Friends".
You forget to wear your mask around the resin sharky? Gone to the brain.
How you can go from talking about pioneering waves to being a racist? Got me stumped. Little do you know my best mates Greek and my missus mum is indigenous Australian..
But You keep listening to those little voices in your head though.
See ya!
End of conversation

c'mon goofball , own up, you hate white is right and might is white , and those little voices in my head are about being a vanilla slice pioneer , and I don't go near resin , so I don't know what you are dreaming up now?

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Blowin Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 3:17pm

I thought you were a big believer in might is right , Sharkman.

Unless it was the bad old Whitey that was mighty of course.

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talkingturkey Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 6:55pm

Anyone else on here a 'baker'?

http://viz.co.uk/christ-can-smell/

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Blowin Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016 at 5:22pm

I like to wake and bake.

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southey Wednesday, 15 Jun 2016 at 2:11am

I left the gate unlocked for 5 minutes ..............

And look what wafted in ...

" SHUT THE GATE " .....

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talkingturkey Wednesday, 15 Jun 2016 at 3:28pm

Blowin wrote: I like to wake and bake.

A bit close to home, Blowie?

http://viz.co.uk/drunken-bakers/

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Sheepdog Wednesday, 15 Jun 2016 at 6:55pm

talkingturkey wrote: Anyone else on here a 'baker'?

http://viz.co.uk/christ-can-smell/

My wife was a baker...... She reckons you should cut back on the salt, chook......

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chook Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 11:19am

in the words of jeff spicoli "wwwwooooww"

what the hell is going on, sheepdog? i didn't even comment on this thread ...how did you know i'm a baker? now i'm a paranoid baker. anyway, you're wife is probably right, it's a good idea to cut back on the salt. thanks for the advice.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 12:13pm

Are pioneers really pioneers? In a surfing sense yes, but if somebody claims to be the first to surf a spot or area, just because they believe or tell others they were the first or it is printed in some surf mag doesn't mean they were, most don't have access/ media to tell the world they surfed an spot or area way back when, and if they did most would not have a means to prove it and many have often moved on from surfing or just don't have the desire to make a claim of being the first.

In regards to the first western pioneers of the mentawais that tittle most likely goes to Dutch and German missionaries who reached and converted pretty much every village apart from those so deep in the jungles of Siberut they remained untouched, the Dutch also had a presence in the mentawais during occupation.

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Sheepdog Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 12:45pm

chook wrote: in the words of jeff spicoli "wwwwooooww"

what the hell is going on, sheepdog? i didn't even comment on this thread ...how did you know i'm a baker? now i'm a paranoid baker. anyway, you're wife is probably right, it's a good idea to cut back on the salt. thanks for the advice.

Just looking out for you bro...... Dont want you to get hardened arteries..... I want ya pullin' in when ya 60 bahahahahahaha

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zenagain Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 1:17pm

Did I hear correctly this morning on the WSL commentary that Turpel and Pottz credited John Roseman with 'discovering' Tavarua.

Is that true? I thought he was one of the early ones but the actual first?

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stunet Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 1:34pm
Didn't hear it but definitely wrong. I sometimes hear that it was Dave Clark and Scott Funk who discovered it but that's also wrong. They opened the first camp but only visited Tavarua in 1982, while it was first surfed around 1978. There would've been plenty of guys tapped into the travellers grapevine who surfed it in the intervening years.
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simba Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 4:05pm

Na it was his mate John Ritter and mates who discovered it in '78,sailing from Samoa to Australia and if you've read Barbarian Days Finnegan tells how he met the legendary John Ritter and thats how he ended up there.Actually i met John in 78 while a mate and i were camped on a beach in Vanuatu,now called Brekkas i think, he comes strolling up the beach with his big red gun looking for surf and sits down with us and tells about "Magic Island" and how perfect it was......John was a school teacher in American Samoa and so was Roseman i think..

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zenagain Thursday, 16 Jun 2016 at 4:35pm

I have read Barbarian days hence that's what prompted me to post.

Maybe I heard wrong, maybe they said he was the first to open Tavarua up. I was kind of daydreaming at the time and that little snippet jolted me out of it. Anyway, think it was during the Adriano/Dusty heat.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 25 Jun 2016 at 11:39am

100% true Fong you have totally nailed it.