cramps

toneranger's picture
toneranger started the topic in Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 4:52pm

Been surfing for nearly forty years now and for as long as i can remember my surfing session will end because of leg cramps.it does not matter wether it's winter or summer but say after 2 1/2 to 3 hrs. i'll fall off a wave and my calf muscle tightens to the point of extreme pain and there i am foot up on board trying to grab my toes to stop the pain.anyone else have this problem and is there any way of alleviating it.

fitzroy-21's picture
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fitzroy-21 Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 6:19pm

Yep, similar from time to time and I have just put it down as my age.

thermalben's picture
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thermalben Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 7:28pm

Not sure if it's true, but I've heard it's due to dehydration. Try drinking a litre or two of water in the hours before you surf, and see if that helps (some stretching before your surf may also assist).

donweather's picture
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donweather Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 8:26pm

I used to get them all the time (calf cramps) but I take magnesium tablets and have found that the cramps have disappeared the majority of the times I surf now. Don't take the ones with Magnesium Oxide as they just give you the sh1ts, literally. As Ben has also alluded too, try drinking rehydration drinks like staminade/gatorade before your surf and also stretch both your calf muscles and hamstrings as I find the whole back arching whilst paddling tightens all of your back side muscles leading to calf cramps also.

There's a whole thread here on magnesium tables:

http://forum.realsurf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20813

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 8:54pm

A banana pre-surf should help and lots of water during the day.

wellymon's picture
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wellymon Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 9:58pm

All of thee above toneranger.

Hydration is the biggest, surfers do not drink enof.

Cramping is one of the first issues with dehydration, its is so serious it can drop you so hard, like death.

groundswell's picture
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groundswell Wednesday, 10 Jul 2013 at 10:14pm

Best thing I have found for getting rid of leg cramps is getting off your board, hold onto it on the rail and stand vertical in the water on your boards rail. for some reason being vertical in the water with straight legs if you can straighten them slowly, (not too harshly) seems to get rid of cramps most often, for me anyway.
Also while surfing, legs occasionally back and forth like a clubby just to stretch them.

that's funny I saw this was just laying here tonight thinking about cramps in my left hand and how it effects those more critical takeoffs. Its actually from gaming too much, might sound geeky but I love shoot em up games,and rally etc get right into them, especially when not much else to do. but they can be bad for your surfing, good and bad.

Bad for the tendons and ligaments and have collapsed on my left hand a few times while in the bowl taking off. Wasting the best wave of the day.
Can be good for focusing and getting into flow.

Apparently a lot of computer office workers have similar issues & have to get operations done on the tendons. Doesn't sound good. Id say gaming would be worse for your hands than typing and office work.
Will be giving it a break for a while.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 1:52am

Gidday, yeh dehydration, low magnesium and low potassium levels can cause cramps. Low Calcium can too, and if you take calcium and magnesium, have more calcium about double. Poor fitness/blood flow can contribute to and cause cramps too. Surfing doesn't do anything for leg fitness, so its good to do leg work to keep things balanced, healthy and fit.

Most supplements are completely useless as they are poorly absorbed. Here's some good ones,at good prices.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Sports-ZMA-Sports-Recovery-180-Capsules/1...
Really usefull because zinc is really important too.

http://www.iherb.com/InterPlexus-Inc-Fura-Mag-90-Capsules/31264

http://www.iherb.com/Twinlab-Potassium-Caps-180-Capsules/2392

http://www.iherb.com/Twinlab-Potassium-Caps-180-Capsules/2392

And like others have said it isn't hard to get dehdrated if surfing for hours and hours. The water thing is a funny one though. Good arguments both ways for needing lots, or for being designed/developed to use stuff all. Personally I like heaps.

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 7:46am

Uplift, do you have some info re that water comment.

Are some people saying we can survive on small amounts of water even during high intensity sport as we have an ability to cope without it someway?

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 10:28am

I did a BET breath hold course recently and dehydration came up in the theory. The instructor claimed that water with a fair bit of salt (celtic salt being the best) will hydrate your body as good as it can get.

uplift's picture
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uplift Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 12:40pm

Gidday Craig, whilst the guy that I have mentioned before who helped many elite athletes, including Tom Carrol, save their careers and I agreed on many things, we used to have ludicrous blabberthons about that topic. He was a true genius, and although I believe that optimum hydration is best, he could paint a pretty compelling argument that we wouldn't even be here, wouldn't have survived as a species if that was true. He believed that we actually create a weakness and a dependence on excess water by constantly drinking it, and that our system was capable of extraordinary performances on minimal water. That we were capable of extracting enough water from a myriad of sources, and utilising it much more efficiently, rather than endlessly guzzling and expelling gallons of it. A hunter needing food, or being hunted themselves, perhaps for days on end, couldn't rely on a constant supply of water. A bit like the strapping style of scenario. The worst thing that you can do is strap a weak area, you only make it weaker. Or use wraps etc when gripping, you create a weak, dependant grip. We are amasingly adaptable.

Its like the supplement thing, I love them, and believe that humans have used them for ages, and view it as adding say, fish emulsion to soil, and also right timing and amounts of water. But I get what he meant, you end up with this seemingly awesome tree, that is doomed if the fish oil and water cuts off. Whereas the tree that survived on stuff all is the ultimate survivor.

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uplift Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 12:52pm
rusty-moran's picture
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rusty-moran Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 8:27pm

I too suffer calf cramps, usually after 2.5 to 3 hours of surfing but also in my sleep, which really sucks. I have been reading up on the topic.

Drinking litres of water all day everyday hasn't helped me at all. Here is an article that disconnects dehydration as the cause.

"Significant and serious dehydration does not affect skeletal muscle cramp threshold frequency"
http://m.bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/11/710.short?rss=1

I am taking 210 mg of magnesium malate daily which has helped with the sleeping calf cramps but not surfing calf cramps.

I am now experimenting with drinking ocean water while surfing, which seems to be working well so far.

desoutc's picture
desoutc's picture
desoutc Thursday, 11 Jul 2013 at 9:17pm

got told this by an old boy living round the corner from me, thought it was bullshit at first but after trying it a few times seems to be the go. when you cramp up in the surf drink about half litre of sea water, seems to work everytime for me

wellymon's picture
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wellymon Friday, 12 Jul 2013 at 9:31am

"Neuromuscular Control"
This chemical is picked up by special sensors (receptors) in the muscle tissue. If enough receptors are stimulated by acetylcholine, your muscles will contract.

Interesting.

rusty-moran and desoutc, you guys should be with Bear Grills, haha
I don't think I would revert to drinking sea water though! I know I piss a lot in the surf mmmmm......

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift Friday, 12 Jul 2013 at 9:45am

Gidday rusty moran, what's your leg routine/training for the week?

Craig's picture
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Craig Friday, 12 Jul 2013 at 10:22am

That's pretty interesting Rusty!

When ever I surf I have a habit of taking mouth-fulls of water and then spitting it out. Not sure if I swallow much of it, but I always thought seawater was too far on the slaty side to help.

rattle's picture
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rattle Friday, 12 Jul 2013 at 5:18pm

Some different points on this topic.

A relative of mine went to a health farm for 4 weeks some years back. During his stay he was asked to drink/sip up to 1.5 litres of sea water a day. It was about realigning the PH level of his saliva. The people running the health farm had the view that the body's saliva in a person with perfect health should be 7. Sea water and rain water both have a PH level of 7. An adult body is between 50% and 75% water. Not sure if this is at all relevant but if drinking salt water stops cramps perhaps it also has something to do with the PH level of an individual's body/saliva. By the way my relative came home 10 kgs lighter and has been medication free since.

Apart from the chemical aspect wouldn't body flexibility play a part. I know that office workers sitting all day at computers run the risk of closing the hips and decreasing the range of movement in the back and lower body. A good stretching program or yoga must help us all in the water.

Lastly, I used to suffer badly from cramps while surfing and occasionally in bed when I was younger. I no longer have this problem but cannot explain why apart from eating well and regular yoga.

Well, that's my 2 bobs worth!

woohcs's picture
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woohcs Friday, 12 Jul 2013 at 6:59pm

theres an old fella that I've been surfing with the last 3-4 seasons. His sessions were always cut short due to leg cramps, to the point that on at least 3 occasions I know of he needed help getting back in. He had his ears drilled in november last year for surfers ear. He swears he hasn't had a cramp since! we've all been asking if it's just that he's taking better care of himself since the surgery, but he swears black and blue nothing else has changed. Weird. Another guy I surf with is right into yoga and organics and all things natural, and treats his body as 'a temple'. he seems to get cramps, though not so severe, almost every session at the hour and half mark of a session...you could set a clock by him. He takes all sorts of 'organic' supplements and is always sipping a water bottle. I have noticed his body shape is very similar to my brother, who loves marathon running etc and also gets heaps of issues with cramps. Apart from the weird ear drilling thing, could it be that some body types/shapes are more susceptible to cramping during certain types of exercise? We're not all built the same.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Saturday, 13 Jul 2013 at 10:02am

I had this problem for a couple of years but have overcome it now. I can't remember the last time it happened. I changed a few things which, I think all contributed. 1. Be aware of the position of your feet. Pointing the foot shortens the calf muscle. This applies both when paddling and during your daily routine. 2. Stretch the calfs regularly and strongly not only just before you surf. 3. Massage your calfs, in particular feel for areas which are tight and sensitive to pressure. Work on these until they loosen up which may take repeated efforts over a week or more if they are well established.
I am not suggesting that any of the other methods are ineffective but those three things are what worked for me.

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rusty-moran Saturday, 13 Jul 2013 at 9:15pm

G'day Uplift. My daily routine is roughly this: Due to a back injury i usually wake up with a tight back and hips so i need to warm up and stretch my hip flexors, psoas and lower back using various yoga/ pilates stretches for forty minutes before doing anything else. Then a surf check and espresso which includes another twenty minutes of non weighted squats and lunges to loosen up my hips. Then a surf or a swim. Then another hour if stretching after dinner for my hips and lower back.

I haven't been doing any calf specific exercises. My hamstrings are pretty tight so I always hold my toes whilst sitting on my board in the lineup. What's your routine? I'm about to start daily squat sessions with some weight say 5kg. I have been learning how weighted squats increase core strength and glute strength which should strengthen my back. I've also been reading up on kettle bell weights routines.

@Blindboy- thanks for your input. I definitely notice early onset of calf cramps when I'm surfing a local ledge which requires me to paddle hard onto waves with pointed toes. Man I've had some bad wipeouts taking off with both calves cramped up and trying to land the drop just on my toes.

@Woohcs- regarding body shape, I have gone paleo diet over the last six months. Weight down from 86kg to 80kg and feeling more energetic throughout the day having given up grains. My diet is mostly home grown organic veggies, lots of home grown meat, chicken, fish and pork. Lots of pastured poulty eggs. Raw milk from my own jersey cow. Coconut oil and everything coconut. Select carbs such as sweet potato, potato and white rice. No food from any package at my place. I have read about others on the paleo journey who have started suffering from calf cramps since going paleo.

@Rattle and @Craig- my wife's education in the area of permaculture has led us to collecting seaweed to use both as a liquid fertiliser in the veggie garden and also as a supplement fed directly to our sheep and cows who eat as much as they need. Seaweed contains an awesome arry of major minerals such as calcium, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, and sulphur. This started me to think that these minerals must also be suspended in the water I'm surfing in almost every day. So after a quick google on the subject and a read through of couple of studies done mostly by homeopathy eg this guy: http://www.harmonikireland.com/sea-water/ and I'm hooked.

So I'm going to keep drinking the clean water at Werri beach and pre empt Uplift's leg strengthening program.

rusty-moran's picture
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rusty-moran Saturday, 13 Jul 2013 at 9:35pm

@donweather- I read all 14 pages of the magnesium debate on the Reslsurf forum. What a hoot! I'm pretty sure that mag supplementation is helpful if one is mag deficient. Leafy greens such as kale are packed with magnesium, provided the soil is not deficient. Thanks for your energy in engaging the discussion.

uplift's picture
uplift's picture
uplift Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 1:29am

Gidday rusty moran, your description of your situation is really common, and really fixable. I've honestly helped heaps worse off people, people that would never even dream of surfing as you are able to, or who were literally crippled and surviving on maximum strength pain killers.

The whole scenario is a snowballing, catch twenty two of related issues. Someone injures themselves, tries to protect the injury, which is important. But in doing so they inadvertently compound it, getting weaker and weaker, which then relays to other areas, and just snowballs on, less blood flow, more all round atrophy, including the nervous system, equals more weakness, more tightness, and around and around it goes. It is totally possible to protect an injury, whilst making it substantially stronger than pre injury.

People with sore backs are pretty much gluteless, quadless, and have feeble hamstrings. Equals feeble calves. Lower back, glutes, quads, hamstrings,abdominal region and hip flexors are all one unit, they all work in unison so that we can hinge. Hinging is what makes us uniquely human. That is our core, not abs as most people think. Abs, that whole region, is mainly for bracing, the real power unit is glutes, lower back, hamstring, quad. At one radical extreme we have people deadlifting a ton, pulling trucks, trains and planes, demonstrating the amasing potential for power, strength and endurance of our core, which includes lower back. On the other end we have the extremely common, opposite radical extreme, where people blow their backs out lifting their weeties into the car, or merely turning in their sleep, or bending to tie a shoe, etc, etc, etc. 'Dont you'll break your back!!!' Somewhere in the middle is, well should be, the norm. Those structures aren't there for nothing. They don't have so much potential for nothing.

You can fix it all easily by breaking the cycle. Blood flow, focused bloodflow, gorging the area with blood is paramount. A radical example is the cruel practice of docking animals tails. Simply cutting off blood flow results in the whole show atrophying, whithering away, muscle, bone, nerves, skin, the whole show. In a less extreme, but just as devastating in its own way scenario, nursing an injury does the same thing, which spirals onwards, and outwards afecting more and more surrounding areas. Until you end up like you.

Please excuse me for pissing myself, but that 5 kilo squat? 99.99% of rehab clients have the same ridiculous story, and we always end up having a laugh about it. Especially later. You already regularly squat and deadlift way more than 5kg. Weight is weight, whether it is shaped like a nasty, evil, dangerous, geeky barbell, or a nice safe box of books, or a full surfing back pack, and so on and so on. Except the barbell is designed to be easily lifted whilst the other things aren't. So, learning to squat or deadlift properly, in a controlled environment becomes a no go zone, according to the genius physio, but lifting a little kid or dog with no preparation or thought of technique is safe?

You need to gorge the area with blood consistantly and regularly, whilst strengthening and thus healing, which in turn breaks/dissolves old mental, nervous system patterns/habits whilst installing a whole new, eventually automatic, unconscious more beneficial and functional set. The focus should be on hyperextensions and hanging knee raises, deadlifts, squats, lunges and calf raises. Knees. Quads and hamstrings are one half of knees, calves originate/support there too.

But not in any old way. Technique, frequency, order and amount are crucial. As is recovery. I wish I could see you in person, you would get it straight away, I could quickly show you beyond any doubt why you are in the situation you are, and how easy it is to correct, and how easy it is to become a million times more funtional and fitter, and how that process just keeps getting better with time. Not worse, better.

The first hurdle is choosing it. Choosing change. Wanting to accept that change is possible, that a solution is possible. There are in reality infinite scenarios. Imagination and creativity are infinite. Some people hate that, despise it. Change, seemingly easy. Often so entertaining though. Let the games/stories begin! 'Yeh but ya see, my injury is one of the world's worse, well, in fact... and the experts said... anyway its my story and I'll cry if I want to... cry if I want to...'

If you ever get over to here to surf, sing out, and catch up, it won't cost anything and I'll guarantee that I can help you. If you are interested/serious, I'll try to explain a program on here, but it will mean shit loads of writing, the detail is crucial. Those exercises are a double edge sword, done properly they produce seemingly miraculous results, done wrongly, which is common, they stuff people up.

Here's a deluxe demo of hinging. Body weights are 85kg and 75kg. Not much heavier than surfers. Hinging is the whole key, drive train and base to lifting like this. Eventually, after a few years, you would be able to do this. Awesome workout, whole body, just manipulate sets, reps for endurance and conditioning. I love watching many 'Im a super fit athletes' using much, much, much lighter weights, often an empty bar, realise the flexibility, nervous system fitness, strength, speed, power, cardio, endurance, focus and determination required to do multiple, high rep sets of this sort of thing. Its a humbling eye opener.

And anyone understanding hinging, the human body, can see the usefullness in surfing, athleticism, let alone health, fitness and longevity.

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rusty-moran Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 12:17pm

Uplift, wow thanks for the detailed post and the offer to help. I just sent you a PM. Text me brother- I'm in! Where are based?
Thanks again for your time and willingness to help a fellow surfer.
Rusty.

groundswell's picture
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groundswell Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 1:36pm

I think he lives near blackfellows South Aust.
Youd love that wave Rusty.

rusty-moran's picture
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rusty-moran Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 2:24pm

@groundswell- ha haa!
I'd better sign up for the treatment program straight away then. Drop in on my old mate smucko while I'm at it!

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rusty-moran Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 2:49pm

@uplift- yes I am serious about correcting my unhelpful routines. I'm 42 now and I have seen several friends suffer from cancer and die at a younger age than myself. This spurred me on to correcting my unhealthy diet. Locked in solid.

I had a pivotal surfing moment a couple of years ago when I paddled out to my local reef which i should be able to knife into in my sleep, and I cartwheeled three in a row due to my bloody sore back and weak core. So I decided to start myself up to lose some weight, get stretching and start Pilates. This has helped to a point but now I know I need proper core strength. So yeah mate I'm in.

I've just been reading a bit about hinging by this guy:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/stretching_doesn...

Is this what you have in mind?

blindboy's picture
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blindboy Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 5:53pm

I wrote a piece for Tracks 30 years ago stating that the specific fitness quality most surfers lacked was lower body strength and received considerable argument from Nick Carroll who was all for flexibility. Uplift must have read my work and been inspired! (JOKE! uplift.)

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wellymon Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 5:57pm

@rusty yeah , That was an interesting link about the homeopathic with sea water above.
Ive dumped so much spirulina , but went off it for about 10 years, ( being lazy I suppose and not thinking of the benefits).
Back on the spirulina now but also have to get back to yoga. Don't give your yoga up Rusty, as I think it is so important for the human body and mind.
I understand where uplift is coming from but to perform like those Bulgarian clean and snatch lifts like those guys in bare feet, with 180kgs is just ridiculous, that take years and years of training! To tell you the truth I honestly don't think that would help you're surfing as well, too much bulk.
When I'm at work I get right into "Spartacus workouts," 40mins long, good for whole body, legs, core and breathing, strips fat and is awesome. Look it up on Mens Health Spartacus Routine1, there a few different routines but No 1 is great. This is high intensity with light dumbbell weights, start off with 6kgs dumbbells and until you have perfect form then go up. Awesome work out for sure.

Good luck with your back , keep the yoga and good natural foods as you are.
Nice work.

uplift's picture
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uplift Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 10:32pm

Gidday rusty moran, yeh I'm in Port Lincoln at the moment. I'll reply to your pm. The rehab methods that I use for the symptoms that you describe are different to what you posted, and are based around hyperextensions, hanging knee raises, focused blood flow/gorging the area with blood, and decompression. Our modern lifestyle is really unbalanced, and compressing. I guarantee what I say, as I have successfully done the same style of thing regularly with a huge range of clients, including many surfers. The progression includes deadlifting, squatting, clean and jerks. Surfers with stuffed backs/knees/shoulders are very common. In fact most sports, because of repeated specificity leave the retired athlete with many injuries.

Its difficult to just write a generic program, because the starting level and form, and progression varies hugely depending on your unique situation. I also guarantee it will be different to anything you have done, and you will quickly see where I am coming from, and why it works, why you are where you are.

The worlds best athletes have utilised and proven variations of Olympic lifting over a prolonged period. Naturally you wont lift elite level weights unless you actually choose that direction. What you eventually do will actually be more demanding fitness wise. And you will always focus on and use decompression, which is largely missing in contemporary life. Kids decompress all the time, so do many other cultures, who never suffer back problems like the western world.

I'm a 100% confident in what I am telling you. Make a call and try and get an appointment with me, I'm booked out way in advance. If anyone has dramatic enough issues I'll let reception take a message, and take the time to talk to them, and see how dramatic it really is as to whether or not I'll juggle things to squeeze them in. If you decide to come, I'll see you on my days off, I don't work weekends. Because you are a fellow surfer with a good rep as a person. Up to you what you choose to do. Just do something different. What you do now equals the symptoms you have now. Super basic and simple. Change.

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uplift Sunday, 14 Jul 2013 at 10:55pm

Irrefutable observation blindboy, you hit the nail on the head. Boardshorts forever! Guys like Tfitz and Sammy Hawk used to try and give attention to that lower body thing too. You never know, I probably did read that article.

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blindboy Monday, 15 Jul 2013 at 5:07pm

Thanks uplift. I'm back in training now after a few months way from gym work. I have never really pushed the strength work and have always concentrated on power. Lots of deadllifts with lighter weights to get maximum energy output, relying on specificity since it mimics powering through a long sequence of turns. Similarly with upper body for paddling power.
At this stage I am concentrating on mobility more than anything else, burning the hamstrings and glutes particularly to get back to my previous range of motion before I increase the loads. The old muscles still respond, it just takes a bit longer and requires a bit more care. Better to keep in training but circumstances prevented that and the first couple of sessions have highlighted how much I have lost.
I haven't seen Tommy Carroll around for a while but I run into him from time to time so I might quiz him on what he did with you if that's OK.

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uplift Monday, 15 Jul 2013 at 9:41pm

Gidday Blindboy, good stuff. As I said several times, I didn't work with Tom Carrol, but my good friend, now dead, did. Its a shame, you can't find much at all about him, yet he helped people like Steve Waugh, Mal Meninga, Pat Cash and Carrol resurrect their careers. When other experts claimed that they were beyond help. He was controversial, as his methods were often the opposite to what the experts who had failed to help advised. And he was blunt. really blunt. We hit it off well, as he couldn't really offend me, and we agreed on lots of things, such as blood flow and decompression, core, lots about hanging. We disagreed a lot about nutrition though. I know what he did, I was lucky to know him well, and he had an effect on my rehab work. He was one of those guys that had everything in his head, so when he went... like I said, I consider myself lucky to have known him so well. Because he can't speak for himself I am torn to how much I will say about him. There used to be some newspaper articles about his amasing life and work, and I think one of the surf mags did some stuff about him and Carrol. So sad, he was so bitter and dissappointed when he died. A good mate in Elliston, a doctor, who was so fucked he had an electric bed built to lift him up and down, living in that thing dosed up to the eyeballs, that was his life, went to see him. His ego would never let me help, his wife begged me to help, so I convinced the guy to help him, and he got his top surgeon mates to win the doctor over, and let him go and stay for a couple of weeks. In one day, one fucking day, he didn't need painkillers and could walk properly, yet he had spent zillions on every ludicrous cure, and was, quote, 'unfixable'. I use to have a ball, watching the endless dribble, the latest back expert theory. South Park... ahh well, hit the remote for the bed... again. Anyway, back he comes, starts breaking all the rules, the outline and protocol meticulously given to him, and I was enlisted to monitor the debacle, starts surfing straight away. But even then, even now, he is a million times better and still surfs. Yet, when he recalls his version, he kinda cured himself, wasn't too bad, the guy helped a little bit... fucking wanker. He's a friend, but when that shit starts up, I let him have all barrels. Even though we all used to go around to play with the remote, and taunt Dr Knucklehead staring aimlessly out to sea, hey, he wasn't too bad. Comical.

That type of shit plagued the poor guy, I don't know why.

Decompression blindboy. When I was around twenty I worked with a legend in Australian fitness. Brian Jones. An awesome guy, gymnastics champion, powerlifting champion, body building champion, one of Australia's top, most respected chiro's. People begged to be a member of his gym. The waiting list was huge. One day he honestly said to me, no more chiro, its bullshit, I wont do it anymore. And my education on hanging, decompression, core, balance, healing, blood flow, strength, began in earnest. That was over 35 years ago. I am so lucky. Not all luck though, I chose and sought and earned what I know. So many good people just gave. A totally different era. Pre internet, guys like Arthur Jones, Ellington Darden, Irvin Johnston/Rheo Blair wrote me, just some no body kid, long, detailed letter after letter after letter. They transformed me, my life. Words like recovery were honestly unheard of back then... even now its comical the lack of knowledge about it, their ideas are becoming all the 'breakthroughs'.

Watch healthy kids. They can't resist climbing and hanging, they are driven to do it. In our culture, adults defer to kids. In cultures who have no understanding of back pain, adults never expect kids to be able to do the work that they can. They are much more capable than kids. Hanging and climbing abilities are prized attributes. Decompression and compression are balanced. That is the power of hyperextensions and hanging work blindboy. Strengthening the whole core and making it fit whilst simultaneously decompressing and gorging with blood. I love taking stooped over 70 year olds through the progression of just getting their arms over their heads, to one day hanging with weights on their feet, and pulling their knees up. The relief, the life quality, their faces, I love it. But, technique and progression is crucial. At first total weakness becomes ridiculously obvious, even in the supposedly super fit. Hands, fingers, elbows, wrists, shoulders, everything needs to be strong in both directions. Its all there screaming to used, for a reason, so it responds quickly. Look at the glaring, obvious differences between feet and hands. Feet push, hands can too, but their real power lies in pulling, gripping, hanging. The muscle mass of the pulling, gripping, hanging side is naturally far greater than the pushing. That's nature's balance. Yet our culture has no grip, and has turned hands into feet, a pushing machine. So, even half the nervous system, which includes the brain, is switched off, atrophying away nicely. Intelligence.

In over 40 years I'm so lucky, I've seen all the cycles and fads, new spray job, here we go again, make a fortune off the suckers. The biggest issue is that drugs that are illegal now, were legal and used for years and years. Not a crime, thats just what happened. No one paraded it, because it was all about marketing the system, equipment, supplements, 'breakthrough' nutrition. Most of peoples training and nutrition ideas inadvertantly, unconsciously come from that era. And the crap still dribbles on, those drugs don't do much, they just add some finishing touches. Sure. And people still worship Arnie. Finishing touches like this, this is what happens to women who use them.

http://muscletime.com/gallery/female-bodybuilding/olympia-weekends/2007-...

http://www.rebodybuilding.com/2010/09/26/congratulation-to-iris-kyle-201...

http://www.ifbb.com/contestresults/2002olympia/photo4a.html

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davetherave Wednesday, 22 Jul 2015 at 4:42pm

uppy, is that nigel you are talking about, if so, i am currently sharing with an old mate of his called skinny, who knew him well and actually lived with him in terrigal for a while. skinny said he was blunt, but one of the great masters of style in surfing, a fantastic surfer, rip fat angel nigel.

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uplift Wednesday, 22 Jul 2015 at 5:09pm

Yeh it is Dave. Awesome guy, did heaps for underprivileged kids too. Blunt is well... yeh he was very blunt. Fat was fat, weak was weak, and so on. Too kind for his own good, had no idea about business, so got burnt, fried regularly. Shame, he was so down and bitter, so disappointed when he died. Rather than applaud and investigate his efforts, the 'experts' were just outright jealous. Especially with the Meninga and Waugh stuff. And his own amasing curing of his own radical, crippling, totally incapacitating 'incurable' disease that all others failed in. He was never supposed to barely move again, let alone surf. It was all pre internet, so stuff all around about him. The 'experts' like that. He was probably lucky it was pre internet really.

I was speaking to him heaps then, nightly, just before he died, but nothing I could do but watch. I know plenty of guys that still surf, that wouldn't be doing anything, let alone surfing if it wasn't for him. Yeh, he was the king of Forresters. But, then again, I'm fulla shit...

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uplift Wednesday, 22 Jul 2015 at 6:00pm

This is about all there is of Nigel re his training on the net. About half way down first column on page 3.

http://www.sydneyboyshigh.com/publications/document-library/doc_view/769...

Funny thing is, it mentions Dean Uthoff straight after. I played against him when he very first came out here.

But, then again, I'm fulla shit...

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saltyone Wednesday, 22 Jul 2015 at 6:45pm

salt. need more in your diet. and magnesium.

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toneranger Wednesday, 22 Jul 2015 at 9:46pm

hi uppity.just noticed this thread got revived.turned out your original diagnosis was spot on. i.e. strenghten legs. just after i posted the original thread i went to see a chiro about an ongoing problem with sciatica from a ruptured disc.he pointed out how my left leg had actually withered. anyway thru a physio and a pilates regime coupled with a fair bit of home exercises my leg has built right back up.also been working on my core,glutes and calf muscles and the upshot is cramps are a thing of the past.

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uplift Wednesday, 22 Jul 2015 at 10:22pm

Stoked for you tone ranger! But this guy, Nigel deserves a lot of your thanks too. He came and stayed with me in Ballina for a while. He was no perfect angel, had his demons, like I said, the jealousy, the fleecing and fryings really ate him up. One famous sports star, that he helped tons, really worked him over financially. I introduced him to people there, and next thing he's trying to help some up there, but fuck, this is just reality, a lot were just drug fucked, and I used to try and plead with him not to waste his time getting involved, writing out all this shit, plus nutrition stuff for them. Even the Carrol thing was in his infamous not so good era, and that used to absolutely exasperate Nigel. I wish he'd come and stayed with me in Elliston, I literally begged him every night in the end, the phone calls were just worse and worse, but, shit happens. I put several guys there on to him, that would have never surfed again. They still do, even though they only did as he prescribed half heartedly. Nigel would be stoked that you are still surfing, toneranger.

http://tikiseasnakes.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/there-was-no-tar-in-carpark...

Saw some sick shots of him in some huge waves.

But, then again, I'm fulla shit...

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davetherave Thursday, 23 Jul 2015 at 8:48am

skinny, another phil, was good mates with phil coates, woody and ray (ratso)- the norah head lighthouse keepers son, tiki and steve.
good one uppy, i cant shut phil up he is so excited to see that photo. nigel had that photo on his wall for years.
nostalgia, the good old days when we all ripped, and head dips were full on deep barrels, but im full of shit.......

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uplift Thursday, 23 Jul 2015 at 10:45am

That's great Dave. I don't know any of those guys, just Nigel. Ha, nothing wrong with head dips... or look backs. I'm sure you and your mates have had some beautiful tubes to remember.

Its so sad about Nigel, when he died he was doing all this pretty amasing stuff on Ross River virus, all these so good hearted plans, but was getting done over there by the corporate world, and that was stressing him out to the max. Wish it was different for him.

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grog-an Thursday, 23 Jul 2015 at 11:13am

uplift wrote:

But, then again, I'm fulla shit...


Finally speaking the truth.. might even gain some credibility back..