The duck diving/rolling under conundrum.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart started the topic in Saturday, 31 Oct 2015 at 11:19am

There's a length, volume and surfboard weight zone which doesn't allow duckdiving due to high volume but doesn't allow rolling under either due to lack of weight and shorter lengths and/or high rail volume delivering poor hand grip.

What do you fellows do when in that zone... bail and use the leash?

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 6:20am

No replies? This is a pretty important aspect of surfboard design isn't it?

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 10:02am

Try to avoid it by choosing not to ride clubbie rescue boards .

Maybe your pink wetsuit adds to your excess buoyancy .

It certainly makes any solids in my stomach rise violently towards my throat.

I'm not sure if that is related to a similar bouyancy problem or not.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 1:03pm

Caml will have something sensible to say I'm sure.

Heavy, long, relatively thin boards (what I make) can be rolled through some pretty big stuff, when they get thicker, shorter, and ighter, not so much.... and many mainstream big wave guns and even midlengths and step ups or semi guns fall into that awkward category. For really big waves no one is rolling under anyway so no issue but as general purpose surfboards many of them will be handicapped.

So for example the shorter 'Desert Storm' boards... I doubt if they can be rolled or pushed under, so what's a man to do?... avoid anything over head high which doesn't have a clear channel?

I get the feeling that this is a touchy subject.

caml's picture
caml's picture
caml commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 3:35pm

Paddle around the break & never get caught is the plan . If u do then u swim under & wash in in a relaxed manner

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 4:00pm

Doesn't work at beachbreaks where one has to get through lines of white water, and ditching the board to rely on the leash is bad practice except in extreme surf. Hardly fair or safe play in crowded surf which can be rolled or pushed under.

Because of this, in my opinion an all purpose surfboard has to either duckdive well or roll under well, so for all except low volume boards that means a weight of 25 pounds minimum, a length of ten feet minimum and rails which offer a secure grip.

There's a huge range of boards out there in the no duckdive no roll under zone. To me they have a major practical handicap.

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 4:03pm

How big would a wave have to be before you didn't roll the board under Roy?
I think nearly any time you're riding a board that big in the waves it was meant for you forget all about the rolling under and just swim instead. That's my opinion anyway. Others on here have much more experience about that kind of thing than me

goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot's picture
goofyfoot commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 4:06pm

And to be honest I reckon most shapers aren't thinking of being able to roll the board under when they're shaping it. It's all about catching the wave then how the board performs on the wave you've just caught isn't it??

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 5:08pm

About 4x overhead max for me when I was at peak fitness but it depends on how it breaks. It also depends a lot upon the board. That's assuming that a helmet is worn too, it's not feasible without one.

If one can't roll under then bailing to rely on the leash starts in quite small surf as you know.

Basically anything with reserve volume in litres over about 50% of body weight in kg either rolls under or is toast... that's a lot of boards starting at shortboard length upwards and most can't roll or duckdive.

It's a no man's and as far as I'm concerned. If I can't get through whitewater at a range of surf sizes up to the biggest I can handle then the board isn't for me as an all rounder... so it's either 40 litres or less, or 20ish pounds plus and long.

It really sucks to be bailing when caught inside on head and a half high days and that sort of thing, total kookery really.

Another way to describe it that if I can't get out the back AND keep control of my board without wearing a leash then I shoudn't be out there... extreme surf excepted but I'm not going out in that anyway.

This isn't an anti leash rant I'm just wondering if anyone has confronted this issue.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 5:10pm

goofyfoot wrote:

It's all about catching the wave then how the board performs on the wave you've just caught isn't it??

It depends upon who you are asking.

.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 5:33pm

Anyone who can't duck dive a shortboard shouldn't be out there. It's a fundamental skill that is easily mastered with some still water practise. The idea that any functional board can be too light to duck dive is absurd......but that's your territory eh Roy? Beam theory. Fins being responsible for exactly 11% of drag. All good stuff for a laugh.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 6:54pm

blindboy wrote:

The idea that any functional board can be too light to duck dive is absurd......

You should read more carefully.

I did not say that boards can be too light to duckdive I said that boards can be too light to ROLL UNDER.

Boards can however be too buoyant to duckdive, as stated.

My point is that a large number of boards are too buoyant to duckdive and also too light to roll under... leaving the rider with no option but to bail and rely on the leash.

.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 8:19pm

Roy Stuart wrote: There's a length, volume and surfboard weight zone which doesn't allow duckdiving due to high volume but doesn't allow rolling under either due to lack of weight and shorter lengths and/or high rail volume delivering poor hand grip.

What do you fellows do when in that zone... bail and use the leash?

Mate read what you wrote ! It's complete nonsense.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 8:43pm

blindboy wrote:
Roy Stuart wrote: There's a length, volume and surfboard weight zone which doesn't allow duckdiving due to high volume but doesn't allow rolling under either due to lack of weight and shorter lengths and/or high rail volume delivering poor hand grip.

What do you fellows do when in that zone... bail and use the leash?

Mate read what you wrote ! It's complete nonsense.

It makes perfect sense, maybe you shoud read it again.

.

caml's picture
caml's picture
caml commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 8:49pm

Roy I find the roll works with big wave guns padding out thru whitewater . There are plenty of techniques , throwing the board over the waves , sitting on board facing away , pushing up above the board like planking / pushup . I don't have names for the maneuver but have managed to paddle out . Experience .

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 22 Nov 2015 at 9:43pm

So put up the dimensions and weight of this devil board that neither duck dive nor roll over.......or admit it's a load of crap.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 11:22am

caml wrote: Roy I find the roll works with big wave guns padding out thru whitewater .

Yeah of course, because they have the necessary weight.

It's the shorter lighter high buoyancy versions which are problematic, the other techniques you mention either lose lots of ground, or are only good for small surf.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 11:30am

blindboy wrote: So put up the dimensions and weight of this devil board that neither duck dive nor roll over.......or admit it's a load of crap.

You ought to learn some manners, but teaching you those isn't my job so here's the answer (as already posted above)

Pushing under the rule of thumb is that it's difficult when the volume of the board in litres is over 45% to 50% of the weight of the rider in kg.

Any board which is more buoyant than that will need to be rolled, so will need at 20 pounds in weight at a bare minimum, plus ideally at least ten feet in length.

A large percentage of boards out there fall into neither category, which is why we see so many people throwing their boards away when caught inside. Apart from the safety aspect it's a woefully poor way to get out the back.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 12:07pm

roy are you talking about an eskimo roll ,when you talk roll?

In really heavy barrels and shallow water , having a strong leash and being able to throw your bd and dive down and maintain you water position , so you can get out is a yes from me!

I don't think anyone eskimo rolls in big waves anymore , as this was when there was no leggies.....

x

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 12:19pm

Yeah Eskimo roll.

I have been a no leggie man for most of the past 20 years, and even when wearing one don't like to use it.

If that's how other people do it though then I suppose there's no issue making boards for them which require it. I'll stay out of that zone myself though.

Thanks for the responses.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 1:07pm

Roy now that's a throwback , not sure many surfers would be pre -leash , and of course the bds were very big tankers , and the ERoll was never very successful in bigger waves with the big boards. I use a short thick leggie so I can in and under when a duck dive is too marginal....

x

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 1:24pm

Hi Sharkman,

The roll works amazingly well in what I suppose would be classified as medium sized surf, as big as I've ever ridden anyway. No more loss of ground than those who are duck diving although it uses a bit more energy. It's second nature to me now.

Design wise if the board is very flat in the rocker and thick in the rails it's not so easy, like old mal territory. Eleven to thirteen feet in length and 25 to 55 pounds in weight has worked best for me.There are a few different rolling techniques too .

So, I've been taking my longer board shapes and adding more buoyancy for bigger wave catching, and finding that it's a bit tricky to get the flat deck and greater thickness to go with a rail shape which can be grasped really strongly. Rail channels seem to be good in that respect.

On the midlengths I've kept the volume down for duck diving, but have a 70 litre 8 footer nearly finished and wonder how it will work out when caught inside.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 1:39pm

"Any board which is more buoyant than that will need to be rolled, so will need at 20 pounds in weight at a bare minimum, plus ideally at least ten feet in length."

Glad to know we achieved the impossible. Up to the early seventies most surfers were rolling as the duck diving technique was not widely known in Australia. We were surfing boards less than six foot for some of that time and at no time were lengths over ten foot. Good to see you are consistent if nothing else Roy. This is right up to your usual standard of nonsense.

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 1:43pm

Let's see you do it now then.

Rolling a board that short and light is a feat so I'd be interested to see it done.

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 1:55pm

Heaps of people roll shortboards. Who here can't say they haven't done it just for fun?

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

caml's picture
caml's picture
caml commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 4:02pm

I think I can roll a short light bd

Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart's picture
Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 4:13pm

Ok, maybe that's the way to go.

caml's picture
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caml commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 4:39pm

Roy I surf reefbreaks with easy paddle outs mostly . If it's a closeout beachy I have been washed away , in , down the beach but am able to paddle the kilometer or two back to the wave . Rather going with the current rather than in into it . I can be scary fun getting washed away or out to sea then having to paddle back to safety

Roy Stuart's picture
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Roy Stuart commented Monday, 23 Nov 2015 at 5:25pm

Right.

It depends upon the spot I suppose, and if you've got really good paddling speed that helps.