McCoy Four Fins? NOT!
True, but to be fair, plenty of folks love singlefin guns as well
Yes, but very few are using the gullfins.Ive owned 4 mCoy guns...2 singles and 2 thrusters, still own a 95model single but its got FCS plugs and it goes so much better as a 3fin.As a 2+1 it goes better than a straight single.Possibly his single guns may have improved but i wont be ordering a single ever.Even more possibly my 95 model will acquire a trailing set of plugs.Its an excellent board with the fins that suit me,once again horses for courses.
Marc.
A few questions.
What design changes does McCoy apply when making a board for a front footed surfer.
About Cheyne Horans style.
How would you describe his swingweight style, is he 70% back footed/30% front footed,60% back footed /40% front footed or 50% front footed/ 50% back footed.
I would be interested to hear others views as well, also how each person defines their own swing weight style.
Noticed the Town and Country boards that Rob Fenech is making have a similar outline to nuggets, is he shaping them with dome bottoms?
Cheers
Philos
Loaded roll bottoms should be produced in North Korea. No custom, 1 option, don't ask why, you could never understand the complexity, but it doesn't work for me, shhhhhh. This cosmic propaganda is hilarious...
Hey dobbie keep posting, you're making me look intelligent.
hey darren, theres no need for the LR bottoms to be produced in N korea because they are already being produced in Thailand at the Cobra factory.No customs and yes only 1 fin option(thruster).An extremely complex moulding system.Hilarious CP is just normal Byron talk, its just a throwback to the hippy days!
Hi Philos,
Give Geoff a call re diff between his back and front foot designs, but basically its placement of area in plan shape and foil.
Re Cheyne, the guy could surf off either foot. But his surfing on zaps and nuggets was full on back foot short arc surfing.
Re Rob Fenech from T&C, he's into many things including Geoff's trip with domes. He's made me a couple of outstanding boards this year. Track him down, he's good value.
Cheers
M.
Marc, you seem to have a wealth of experience on McCoys and you obviously have a good dialogue going on with Geoff. I would be interested to hear about you, your favourite boards and what conditions you like to ride them in. Do you ask for a few tweaks here and there?
At your service Mr Atkinson ;-)
I've never ridden a McCoy (any model) but there's a 'Tri-Zap' for sale in the local surf shop. It's at a nice price. The only issue ive got is that it's a touch too thick. Speaking to a friend he says they're supposed to be ridden that way. It's pretty shot (5'9) so may not matter but it's thicker than any board Ive ridden.
Anyone got any thoughts? Should I just get it?
They're not massive, they're the right thickness! (paraphrasing Geoff!)
What thickness is it, just out of interest?
They're not massive, they're the right thickness!
So I've heard! It's only 2 1/2 thick but the real difference is there's no roll in the deck, it's got thick rails and what feels like a completely flat deck. The thickness also extends up toward the nose more than I'm used to. Thinking I might just buy it.
Go for it. If it's a good price, it would be unlikely that you would lose much if you didn't like it and wanted to sell it on.
Hi Moore
Where were we? Won't say much about myself other than I've been around some. But on surfboards and surfing we could talk the night away over a meal and a good wine anytime you're on Manly beach.
Re Geoff's designs, I surf them all.... some better than others, ha! But in all of them I find attributes that amaze and put a smile on my dial and make me want to go surf some more. They are unique in design so surf differently to other boards I ride. To me its not a matter of saying McCoy is better, more the fact that they are unique. But if I were Captain Jack Sparrow and dumped on a Caribbean Island, I say forget the rum and leave me the McCoy and know I had a board to cover a wide range of surf conditions. Especially when its barreling!
When getting Geoff to design a board, I have found over the years, its best to describe accurately how you are currently approaching your surfing and how you want the board to surf. eg. The boards I'm getting this week, I explained to Geoff where I was heading with my surfing and that I wanted to 'carve' off the front foot off the bottom and snap off the back in the pocket. Now Geoff will take that information, digest it, then make subtle changes to the model/models from his range we choose to work with. Over the years I've found that brings a better result from Geoff rather than leaving it all up to him or attempting to suggest what and where he should make adjustments. He understands surfing, and if he can get a clear picture in his head of how you want to surf, that's when he does his best work.
I mentioned in reply to you before that Geoff wasn't into shaping customs as you were suggesting, but in the above sense he is truly a custom shaper. He will adjust his design to suit your dreams if you can convey the right message. It's all about communication with your shaper and as I'm sure you know, sometimes it takes three or so boards to get it right, correct and honest communication of ones surfing being the key.
Have I had McCoy dogs? You bet. There's so many factors that come into board building, such as blanks, glassing, sanding etc through to a bad day in the office for the shaper. But some of the dogs I've thrown on the beach, only to have a mate go out and rip on the board and claim it for himself. ????????
Now ain't that surfing and surfboards. Ha!
M.
Also...the Gullwing fin.
Amazing design but so different in the way it works, unless understood and utilised, you will come away scratching your head.
The purpose of the fin is to create a design that pivots an arc as tight, if not tighter, than a thruster for todays style of attack on a wave.
The gullwing works in reverse to the physics of the Greenough inspired fins we generally surf. The gullwing pivots from the base and drives from the forward knuckle to the tip. Totally reverse of a normal fin which drives from the base and pivots from the throat to the tip. So therefore that can take some getting used to. It's a really different feel underfoot and unfortunately not real comfy when jumping around from board to board....
Uninformed comments will give you guys who are really interested in this thread and Geoff McCoy designs, warped impressions of what Geoff is doing. So let 'em slide by.
Track down footage of Al the dentist @ Lennox Head to get a true dose of how cool they can work.
M.
I've got some good footy of Al (dental technician) McDirmid getting barrelled on his McCoy single-o's.
Would you mind posting it up please freeride?
Marc - thanks for the info, that's good stuff to know.
Also, cheers for the invite. I live in Europe, but hope to get over to Oz again in the next few years!
I'd love to see that vid of Al McDirmid too freeride (If he's okay with you sharing it)
Cheers Moore, here's a gift for ya.
When your designing think of this.....
Firstly think in terms of object (surfboard) and energy source (wave).
Lets say you take an object with flats and straights the size of a football and supply energy to it by kicking it.... how far and fast do you reckon it will travel without having to to be kicked again? And with what sort of control?
Now replace that object with a ball - balls being all about curves and softness - and consider how fast and far that will travel before it needs to be kicked again. And again, with what sort of control?
How will those curves the ball contains react to the environment its moving through?
Right now your creating boards with straights and hardness as their main theme. Nothing overtly wrong with that, but they do give you only a one dimensional result...and you do have to keep constantly kicking the object as there's resistance to continual flow. Again nothing wrong with that if you only want to surf in that dimension. And its possible most of today's surfers only know of one dimension. But there's a whole world of surfing out there to be explored. And the only way you can get to it is through alternative surfboard designing.
Old man McCoy has headed off in a different direction using the physics of the softness in curves to create neutrality in surfboard design. The result being a different board with different dimensions in character. And an outcome of this is you don't have to work hard to get the board to flow from turn to turn. That's what the Nugget design is all about. And old man McCoy is only at the tip of the iceberg.
Give it a go, see what you can find and report back to the Swellnet forum.
Have fun.
M.
I'll get to that vid eventually. Got to track it down, digitise it and upload.
It'll happen, but not today.
The shots of Herro and Cheyne are frame grabs of video.
Interesting analogy, Marc. Much of it makes sense.
So... what about the ball and the javelin, both weighing the same and both having the same energy pushing it forward? The javelin will have the least resistance when compared to the ball and will go further, despite having a long straight edge (which is itself curved across another dimension, but that's another story...)
What about the ball with a shiny surface vs. the exact same ball with a dimpled surface - effectively multiple edges over a curved surface? The dimpled one (like a golf ball) will be faster as the airflow, in crude terms, is broken up and has both less resistance and less drag.
Just being Devil's Advocate here.....!
Thanks
yes Moore u hit the jackpot there, a smooth golfball(object)was them modified(quadfins)and found to go much faster through the water.
Bought the Tri-Zap on the weekend! Only had it in small surf so cant tell how it goes yet but it feels good. Paddles like a demon too. I got bailed up in the carpark by a guy who said it'd be about 25 years old. Thats older than me!
well Dewy, it could be a little more. i was in the water one day and 3 visitors paddled out, all on triZaps.They ripped.the boards worked unreal for them & pretty sure it was 82or83.
...and what about that other source of energy - the surfer?
Our inputs are translated by the object to direct it in conjunction with the 'other' energy source - the wave.
For me, Neutrality's good in solid surf but a board with some quirkiness/'personality' is better in smaller surf.
For the above reason, I think I would shy away from a Zot (unless I picked a used one up) but I am pretty keen to try a Zap at some point.
YES, spot on....small weak waves need minimal drag....thats y MR dominated on a twin fin when the tour was held at some pretty crappy surf spots.Quads are really only a twin with side stabilisers, whereas a thruster uses the stringer fin to stabilise the board.the centre fin is a drag in weak waves but in grunty waves it suits some people quite well.MF and Parko both rode quads in the final in Tahiti.obviously ke11ys Fiji victory on a quad+nubster has influenced the current top 2 world tour surfers.if quads can work on those anoerexic objects, why cant they work on THE object?
@Quadzilla,
"Quads are really only a twin with side stabilisers,"
That sounds more like a Twinzer to me, or perhaps the Glen Winton style quads of the late-80s. Modern quads in the Bourton or McKee mould (i.e the ones that work) are more like a thruster with the rear fin split in two.
Hi Moore,
All for fun .... Yeah, but a javelin can't be swerved through the environment its passing through, etc. A ball, being full of soft curves, can be easily turned ... as in those amazing goals, both soccer and footy. Point is in this world of physics, soft curves turn easily and naturally. That fact is not mine nor Geoff McCoy's invention... If Quadzilla or anyone else wants to dispute it, they'll have to take it upstairs way above me
I've had good success with using the formula of balanced and soft curves. As I said earlier, try it, play with it, and see how you go.
As for surface finishes on surfboards and which is faster etc, it's been my experience there's so little in it thats truly relevant to us surfers. Design in rocker and plan shape are much more important and will play the major factor in the natural speed of a surfboard. And yeah, of course the surfer plays an important role in speed too, being another energy source.
Geoff always uses gloss finishes and they fly.
Which brings us to the problem of the tail cavitation and McCoy's spinning out.... a common concern and problem front foot surfers experience when riding back foot design McCoy's such as Nuggets and Zaps.
Speed makes the board lift, like a hydro foil does when reaching certain speeds. McCoy design bottom shapes and full foils, cause the board to ride on top of the water flow, Geoff's boards are unique in this factor, therefore if you've no weight over that tail it lifts right out of the water and you spin out. Been there done that. Weight the back leg, set the board down on the water and you'll fly out of the turn with more speed than you've ever had before because the back end isn't dragging through the water.
This has been my experience. But if you can't adapt your surfing style to back foot surfing you experience frustration, spinning out, pushing water etc and though you instinctively will feel there's something good in the board you won't connect with it and it ends up on eBay.
Now here's a point that Geoff and I see differently. I see no value in such a concentration on back foot surfing, but he does cause its his trip, maybe even his invention! Back foot surfing is not my trip though I can adapt. Zots, Zaps, Nuggets, are back foot designs and I like surfing them but if your not sure about your surfing style then seek qualified advice from Geoff would be my advice. Other than that, choose another of his designs.
Guys these boards work. Check the shots, check the weight on the back foot in the bottom turn.
Cheers and thx for the fun in this thread.
M.
Hmmm Q ... So using your drag quotes re small waves which would create less drag: A set up which had four fins toed in and splayed out creating turbulence, or a single fin placed upright on the stringer with therefore no toe in and no splay and next to no turbulence ????
Come on Mr Quad be careful where you go.....
The creation of drag then the releasing of drag is how multi fins work. It's that releasing factor that gives the thrust and the sense of speed. The more drag you create, the greater the thrust and the sense of speed when the release comes.
It's all good quad, you can love your four fins but please ....Fanning's and Parko's boards were designed as four fins, your McCoy wasn't and is an adaption. If you like it and it works for you, all the best to you, but no matter what you say the fact remains your board was not designed to be a four fin and when pushed by a good surfer will have its issues.
Cheers
M.
The creation of drag then the releasing of drag is how multi fins work. It's that releasing factor that gives the thrust and the sense of speed. The more drag you create, the greater the thrust and the sense of speed when the release comes.
By: "marc atkinson"
I thought it goes a step beyond just a 'sense' of speed to real speed AND acceleration. The drag, and the weight causing that drag, is an energy source in and of itself. When you hit that release, both the speed of the wave, and the built up energy of that drag, combine to force a release of energy producing a speed greater than the speed of the wave. Just my 2 cents, and maybe I'm mistaken, but that's what I attribute to the enjoyment of a fade take-off and a well executed bottom turn and roundhouse cutty, whether you're riding a single fin, twin, thruster OR quad. All of these configs experience it to a different level of course.
Ha ha...Hey morg, you saying that maybe I should have stayed at school instead of wagging to go surfing.
Cheers
M.
Boom-tish! I think you've done alright Marc.
Wow, we appear to actually be talking about how surfboards work on a surfboard design forum! This is all good stuff...
The singles will, at different points, undoubtedly have less drag than a thruster or quad i.e. When the angle of attack means that it is running through the water when the water flow is running straight from the nose of the board through to the tail - paddling, for instance..
However, it will dragging to different degrees once the AOA changes...
Look at those pics above (which are pretty awesome, by the way) and you will see that even though the surfer is going 'straight' the water is moving across the board at a diagonal (check the nice smooth sheet of water leaving the board behind his left heel). This means that some kind of drag, admittedly far less than a thruster (if he is on a single), is happening as the fin is effectively moving through the sea sideways.
Quads appear to negate some of this drag as they are toed and canted in conjunction with the rail that is engaged at any one time, either while turning or 'going straight' (no such thing IMO), but when the AOA is flat, like when paddling, there will be drag.
This does not take into account fin size, shape, rail shape, or any other crucial aspect that needs to be considered!
Geoff is right when he talks about the design working with the fins as a whole, no prob there.
Geez Moore, you're making me blush...
The boards a 6'8 x 20 1/4 x 2 7/8 McCoy Nugget semi gun thruster. It's Manly beach.... the same bank that hosted the '78 Surfabout final with Wayne Lynch & Larry Blair.
Enlarge as big as you can and check again what's going on with water flow. Interesting stuff for design junkies.
Personally I can't say enough good things about McCoy's dome.
Cheers
M.
@Moore,
Considering this paragraph of yours: "Look at those pics and you will see that even though the surfer is going 'straight' the water is moving across the board at a diagonal. This means that some kind of drag, admittedly far less than a thruster (if he is on a single), is happening as the fin is effectively moving through the sea sideways."
Although it may be slightly off topic check the latest Bonzer review/rave thing on Swellnet and how that design harnesses angular water flow.
Also may be worth your while chasing down Maurice Cole and his 'Tales From the Chookshed' vid where he talks about water moving across the bottom of the board diagonally. It's led him toward the ultra deep concaves that he now shapes for Ross Clarke-Jones and co.
Yes, I've spotted the MC vids and spent a fair bit of time looking at his designs.. At first they appear to be the antithesis of McCoy's designs - big concave, lots of edge, lower volume. But they do share a common element - a relatively straight rocker along the stringer line, particularly through the tail.
Pretty cool to consider that both types of design work well and a variety of conditions, I reckon... More than one way to skin a rabbit eh?
Marc - that's you? Nice shots! Looking at the pic a bit closer - maybe you're on a tri fin?
BTW - have sent you a private message, check your inbox please!
...
It's all good quad, you can love your four fins but please ....Fanning's and Parko's boards were designed as four fins, your McCoy wasn't and is an adaption. If you like it and it works for you, all the best to you, but no matter what you say the fact remains your board was not designed to be a four fin and when pushed by a good surfer will have its issues.
...
By: "marc atkinson"
Could it be that modding to four fins makes a Zot more user friendly for surfers of intermediate or average abilities?
Like putting nylon strings on a guitar that was designed for steel strings: It may be much easier to play for a beginner, but there will be a performance ceiling to the instrument that cannot be breached even by an expert guitarist as long as the wrong strings are on it.
Very nice thread!
Hi guys Dr Con Tentious here,
Water doesn't move across the bottom of the surfboard.... It's all Maya, an illusion .... It's not what it seems to be. The surfboard moves across the water. In fact, better said, it's slicing it.
There's a world of difference and old man McCoy's onto it.
Oops, I fear I've just put my head on a chopping block..... run rabbit run......
No, not at all! That makes sense...
It's good to have these kind of discussions without the usual 'well - so and so won a WCT on it so it must work' offhand comments that appear so often on design forums with no effort to actually delve deeper to suss out what the hell is going on!
Geoff's followed his own nose and for this fact alone I am intrigued by his theories... Even though I might not agree with them all at the moment (I agree with most, though) I will quite enjoy being convinced otherwise!
I am guilty of toying with two nuggets.One I quadded up the other (a zot) I added trailer (thruster) boxes.They made the boards perform differently but with mixed results.I blame the surf where I live (South Coast SA,lots of mush). The neutrality and full rail single works beautifully when there is some steepness but our waves are long and slopey.
I added the fins to increase resistance and get a little squirt from the fin and wide tail combination.Geoff's boards (it seems to me) are designed for smooth,rail to rail transition surfing at the speed of the wave AND in the pocket.The boards don't have the twitchiness of 'performance' boards which baffles many surfers who try McCoys and say they feel slow or dead.I just love the feel of them under my feet and the paddling power they offer.After maybe 12 years of surfing around 12 nuggets (all sub 6ft) I can't see myself riding anything else apart from the odd novelty surf on Simmons inspired craft.I have a 5'2'' that I bought 2nd hand for my son long ago which is still the best board I've ever had.
I still havent had my 'Tri-Zap' in any decent waves yet. Its been a special kind of torture reading you guys talking about Mccoys while not being able to ride mine. Im just going to drive this weekend till i find something good.
for what it's worth...surfing nearly 50yrs,best bd ever was a mcCOY geoff made me in 87,double ender i called the 'baked bean'wp bout centre ,flattish tail,15"wide,loaded dome(someone said it's like surfing on ball bearings)single fin that worked unreal with a starfin in 2-8'.Magic bd i bought & sold 3 or 4 times(Hollywood loved it,so did AA even Barton rated it)finally got it back & now it rests in the roof.A Classic (like those fotos of you marc)
Garry-weed, can you fill us in on your experiences on the nugget you changed to a QUAD please?like what fins u have played with and what sort of waves you have used it in?my quad nugget is the best feeling ive had from a mCoy over the last 16years of riding them, so i'm interested to hear what another longterm enthusiast thinks about them.whats also quite important to know is the placement of the fins and if u still use that board as a thruster as well considering your modified Zot is a thruster?what size is the Zot and the Quad too?
Slightly off topic but a good read:
http://www.boardcollector.com/2012/09/riding-waimea-on-5-8-mc-coy-lazor-...
So Geoff McCoy rings me again and says, "I don't know what's going on, I'm swamped with orders". Ha, he knew nothing about this thread.
He reckons he's going to have to shape weekends to keep up. Ha ha again.
To all you guys ordering boards from Geoff, enjoy the ride.
Cheers & over & out.
M.
And guys, get a centre box for the stringer fin which makes it a lot easier to add plugs for the quad experience.designs to FREE your surfing!
So Marc,
You've just been in contact with Geoff McCoy and he's tripped out to discover guys are playing around with his designs by changing the fin configuration to four fins etc.
In fact his orders have gone through the roof!
Seems this quad thing is working out well for old man McCoy ;). He should take it further.
So I've just been in contact with Geoff McCoy and he's bummed out to discover guys are playing around with his designs by changing the fin configuration to four fins etc. In Geoff's own words, "If they worked better I would make them but they don't."
I've worked closely with Geoff for different periods of my life since 1971 and he is without doubt the most gifted and knowledgeable board designer I've personally met and/or worked with, yet he also takes the prize for the least understood by the industry he help to build in Australia.
History doesn't record Geoff McCoy in a good light; a man of vision and progressive thinking, he has instead often been portrayed in a less than glorifying light. Knowing him as I do, I have to admit often he is his own worst enemy when it comes to speaking to media and the industry and his sometimes abrupt and abrasive manner often comes back and bites him on the arse as he gets misunderstood and miss quoted etc. Yeah, we've all got our crosses to carry.
But let's get back to surfboard design.....
All you guys out there re-configuring your McCoy's with different fin set ups, do so not understanding the physics behind the design and therefore you're playing with matches and generally your pockets going to get burnt.... it's not cheap to change a board to a four fin just to find out it's not what you were expecting and hoping for. Then you gotta sell it on and the next guy also finds it's a dog and goes around telling everyone McCoy's are fucked boards etc...
Now maybe you can see why old man McCoy gets pissed off.
If you're into Geoff's boards - which is like being switched into an entirely different world of surfing, and let's face it unless you're in that world you don't get to understand the brilliant complexities of it - be careful what you think will work well with McCoy designs. Chances are it won't work as your hoping or as the media is telling you it will work. And the reason it won't is simple.... the board's not designed to work that way.
Now I know there's a whole world out there where you can do what ever you like with surfboards and get told you're improving the design, but that's not Geoff McCoy's world.
I hope I've saved a lot of you a heap of $$$ that you were about to spend ..... Now you can go take your girl out for a night on the town.
Cheers,
Marc